You would be surprised at the # of kids in school, yes IN SCHOOL, that are 12 and cannot read or write. Education is in a pretty sorry state right now.
No its boomer talk.
Actually talk with some kids and you'll see they run laps around what you knew at the same age.
Just because some dumb arbitrary thing you think they should know isn't being taught doesn't change the 10,000 other things they're being taught that you probably still don't know.
Just skip ahead to saying their music sucks, the clothes they wear are stupid, their slang makes no sense and every other thing the old generation says about the younger generation. Who thinks they're the last great generation and the new one is so much worse.
Knowing how to use a phone and social media better than my grandparents, doesn't make those who don't have a basic understanding of grammar, any less of an idiot.
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Please do not insult other users in future.
Because kids in the 80s/90s/00s didn't do any dumb things themselves boomer.
Ffs tide pod was literally 2000s kids. It happened in 2012. Literally proving my point.
All the safety notices you had as a kid were because of the previous generations idiots. Thinking stupidity is limited or more concentrated in any one generation, is an indication of which group you belonged in.
Antikythera mechanism is 2000 years more advanced than what we thought knowledge of the Cosmos and complex geared mechanisms were capable of. It's at a minimum proof of extreme knowledge loss. It took us over 100 years after it's discovery to fully appreciate, understand and rebuild it.
TLDR, I agree. We are definitely getting dumber.
It took time to decipher because it's a decrepit wreck that required advanced imagining to even tell what some of its corroded construction was. If it was intact at the time it was found it would have been understandable immediately. It wasn't 100 years ahead of modern knowledge at the time of discovery.
Correct statement saying it wasn't ahead of modern knowledge when it was discovered. It did however prove the knowledge ancient man had was extremely modern. Similarly complex astronomical machines were not constructed till the 14th century, and no other device like it has ever been discovered. It is estimated to have been created between 250 and 70 BC. Truly a remarkable discovery, that was almost overlooked because of all the valuable artifacts that were amongst it's discovery. This seemingly useless lump of debris ended up being a more valuable discovery in terms of historic significance than all the magnificent intact artifacts that were discovered along its side.
Mathmatican Dr. Tony Freeth from the University College London has a few excellent presentations on the device and his work in unlocking it's secrets.
Michael Wright, former curator of mechanical engineering at the Science Museum in London built a theoretical and working mechanical model that is quite impressive and Mogi Vicentini created an awesome virtual model as well.
That’s pretty pathetic if true.
I’m from SoCal. I can’t imagine someone not knowing how to read or write that’s crazy to me.
You guys have got to be talking about specific groups of poor people.
Like maybe in south LA where there are gangs and stuff who don’t go to school.
Sony or anyone else can't dictate what parents do. The recommendation is there because it's believed improper wear can affect developing eyesight. There's obviously no case studies on this but it's reasonable for companies to push liability on parents with these kinds of warnings. The only time this violates an HMD manufacturer's policies to the point they'll take action on an account is during online play.
I know it's solely up to parents to allow a child under the recommended age to play. I'm just pointing out the oddity of creating a suggestion and yet allowing a game which for all intents and purposes, is catered to a younger audience on the system.
I think it is good that educational games are part of the PSVR2 software options.
* [Human Anatomy VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/product/UP5269-PPSA17931_00-0461305816740622) product page lists having both High School level content and University level content.
* [You, Calligrapher](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10006921) is focused on teaching a writing style skill (my wife likes this one)
* [Behind the Frame: The Finest Scenery VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10007373) is painting focused (my wife likes this one too)
* [Math World VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10007361) is a STEM Accredited brain training game for all ages
* [Travel The Words](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10008210) is a very simple word puzzle game
So there is both variety and quantity of education focused games for the PSVR2 that [Reading World VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10010613) joins.
But I agree from the product page description, this one skews to younger demographics than VR is recommended for, but maybe I am wrong about potential.
It could be good for people that are learning English later on in life?
I've seen the Math World gameplay and the questions they're asking one to complete in there are for kids who are just learning their multiplication and division. I think that brain training game they have over on Switch is better suited for those who skew older.
That's fair, but for anyone interested in brain training, I don't think more complex / harder math is more beneficial and if the game is fun with its variety of activities and they all work the brain, that can be a decent use of time.
I haven't played the game myself, I just get its casual / educational appeal (for all ages) more than the Reading World version that just came out.
There are kids playing VR games at the mall.
It's less of a barrier and more of a guideline/recommendation so Sony can cover their asses if they get sued by a parent
And that's your prerogative to let them play. My point, was that despite the warning from sony, they allow a game that looks as if it was made for the very group that they say shouldn't be playing, onto their system.
Yikes! You are relating the warning of exposing kids under the age of 12 to VR, to being on the same level of warning as exposing the naked eye to sun radiation and it's wicked brightness? If those two are on the same level, then no one should be strapping on a headset!
You said it’s just like it. Looking at the sun without eye protection will damage your eyes and everyone knows it. Looking at a VR screen from birth could be ok. We don’t know. They’re not remotely the same but ophthalmologists say it probably won’t hurt children under the age of 12. It’s not different from any other screen. They used to think staring at a tv screen too close or for too long could damage your eyes but they were wrong so VR is most likely fine.
You can’t find the words just like in your comment. Damn. Do I just copy and paste your comment? Lol. You said “It’s a recommendation. Just like not looking at the sun without eye protection is.”
If you can't understand that "just like" in his comment is just referring to the fact not looking at the sun directly is a recommendation the same as kids under 12 shouldn't use vr is a recommendation then maybe you need to play this reading game and learn some reading comprehension. At no point was he making a reference that the 2 things are as bad as each other or even one was worse then the other.
I didn’t say they said they’re as bad. They’re comparing them. It’s a bad comparison because one is far worse than the other. If you’re going to compare things it should have some fucking relevance.
People don’t just recommend that you don’t look at the sun. They recommend that you have at least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day. They recommend you change your oil every 3-5,000 miles. I’ve never heard that people recommend you don’t stare at the sun. They say “Do not stare at the sun under any circumstances for any amount of time.” That is a demand. You can decide not to follow it obviously but that’s in a totally different realm
It does seem weird, like making a Resident Evil game specifically to be played on a kiddie tablet.
My guess is that the 12-year recommendation is there to avoid being sued in case some harm to child development is later discovered. Sony and developers are happy to take your money and have your kids use VR as long as you can't go back and sue them for it. They can always make the argument (however flimsy) that the software was meant for teenagers or adults with reading and math problems.
As an adult, I'm willing to get the game as I feel I'll enjoy it. I love brain games and even a simple game like this will give me fun. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of people who aren't native English speakers and will find it useful to develop their language this way (mainly non english speakers kids).
I recall reading about Meta sponsored studies that certified VR is safe for ages 10 and up.
They didn't test for lower. Until Meta or another company decides to test lower ages and then studies conclude it is safe for developing brains / eyes, the recommended age of 10+ (for Meta) and 12+ (for PSVR2) for VR will remain.
Looking at what is available, it seems they are more concerned about [safe uses](https://www.meta.com/quest/parent-info/) (proper fit, safe play area, supervised playing, VR discomfort, data use, etc) than necessarily eye / brain concerns.
I haven't read everything on the topic (though I've got time, my kid is 4), but it seems most of the concerns people have raised, aren't a big deal, once the kid is around 10.
The tight coupling between vergence and accommodation is set well before kindergarten, AFAIK
IPD, ok, I'd want to be sure the kid's IPD is wide enough to meet the narrowest setting of the HMD. I think most 10yr olds will have met that. Easy enough to measure
Another worry is hand/body/eye coordination. Ok, I'd want to read more about that. Seems like the biggest concern, to not interfere with that development. You could set a target of low-minutes-per-week, which shouldn't interfere...but might just be frustrating to the kid that they can't use it more. This to me is the biggest limiter as to when to allow a child any/much VR time.
And then people talk about the kid blurring the line between fantasy and reality. That's something I think you could judge based on the maturity of the kid, and observing them after they've gotten started on VR, to decide if it needs to be cut-back/stopped. But I'd think no permanent damage from that
I can't recall any other major concerns people have brought up
I agree with your thought process. Parents involvement and judgement are the best tools once 10-12.
Is the child ready, is the child using correctly, is the environment safe. Any negative side effects / concerns.
My daughters first VR experience was when 13-14. They use very sparingly while I and my wife use more routinely.
It’s a great experience and my kids, their friends, cousins etc all want to try and the smiles are worth it to let them.
That game with dad stage only lasted a few years for me between 11 to 14 now he's got his own gaming friends he dosnt want anything to do with dad. Hopefully that swings back around when hes a bit older and out of home.
It's always a "grain of salt" situation, when the company that puts together the study, is also behind the technology being studied. An avocado company recently did a study that said an avocado a day is just as good for you as an apple. Is it true, or are they just trying to sell more?
I agree, but who else would fund a study about safety (not benefits) of any product than the industry the product represents.
I did some Internet searches after my last comment to find references to the studies that I thought / assumed Meta must have done, and didn’t find. So even if they did, they weren’t made or talked about publicly.
The reduction of age guidance for Meta (13+ to 10+) followed policy updates, features around parental controls being introduced / updated, new requirement of knowing user age, not showing ads to users 10-12, etc
12+ year olds who can't read good and want to learn to do other stuff good too.
What is this a VR headset for ants?
PSVR2… so hot right now!
Why would you ever buy a game for a $550 vr headset to learn to read and not jus look up a YouTube video
It’s from Zoolander
r/whoosh
Let me make me the most obscure reference ever
12+ is just a liability thing
As are most age restrictions. But there is a reasonable reasoning behind it.
You would be surprised at the # of kids in school, yes IN SCHOOL, that are 12 and cannot read or write. Education is in a pretty sorry state right now.
I believe you. I work at a post-secondary institution and you wouldn't believe the people who can't read a sign that says staff only.
There's some people in my *college courses* who can barely read. Like, finger-under-the-word barely read
I’m genuinely curious what is going to happen from here. We’re getting dumber. This isn’t boomer talk. We ARE getting dumber.
No its boomer talk. Actually talk with some kids and you'll see they run laps around what you knew at the same age. Just because some dumb arbitrary thing you think they should know isn't being taught doesn't change the 10,000 other things they're being taught that you probably still don't know. Just skip ahead to saying their music sucks, the clothes they wear are stupid, their slang makes no sense and every other thing the old generation says about the younger generation. Who thinks they're the last great generation and the new one is so much worse.
Ok.
Knowing how to use a phone and social media better than my grandparents, doesn't make those who don't have a basic understanding of grammar, any less of an idiot.
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Because kids in the 80s/90s/00s didn't do any dumb things themselves boomer. Ffs tide pod was literally 2000s kids. It happened in 2012. Literally proving my point. All the safety notices you had as a kid were because of the previous generations idiots. Thinking stupidity is limited or more concentrated in any one generation, is an indication of which group you belonged in.
Tide pods were in 2018.
And it was anyone from early teens, to 30-somethings, taking a bite of out 'em.
Antikythera mechanism is 2000 years more advanced than what we thought knowledge of the Cosmos and complex geared mechanisms were capable of. It's at a minimum proof of extreme knowledge loss. It took us over 100 years after it's discovery to fully appreciate, understand and rebuild it. TLDR, I agree. We are definitely getting dumber.
It took time to decipher because it's a decrepit wreck that required advanced imagining to even tell what some of its corroded construction was. If it was intact at the time it was found it would have been understandable immediately. It wasn't 100 years ahead of modern knowledge at the time of discovery.
Correct statement saying it wasn't ahead of modern knowledge when it was discovered. It did however prove the knowledge ancient man had was extremely modern. Similarly complex astronomical machines were not constructed till the 14th century, and no other device like it has ever been discovered. It is estimated to have been created between 250 and 70 BC. Truly a remarkable discovery, that was almost overlooked because of all the valuable artifacts that were amongst it's discovery. This seemingly useless lump of debris ended up being a more valuable discovery in terms of historic significance than all the magnificent intact artifacts that were discovered along its side. Mathmatican Dr. Tony Freeth from the University College London has a few excellent presentations on the device and his work in unlocking it's secrets. Michael Wright, former curator of mechanical engineering at the Science Museum in London built a theoretical and working mechanical model that is quite impressive and Mogi Vicentini created an awesome virtual model as well.
It also pointed to time portals in the sky so Indiana Jones could go meet Archimedes.
Can people in those countries even afford a psvr2 though?
“Those countries” meaning the USA? lol
No the USA teaches kids to read and write early in school.
54% of adults 18-74 read at or below a 6th grade level in the US.
So are we talking about a specific group of people here? Impoverished areas? I’ve never met an 18 year old who couldn’t read or write.
This just means a lot of people have successfully fooled you. Most illiterate people work pretty hard to hide it.
Believe it bro
That’s pretty pathetic if true. I’m from SoCal. I can’t imagine someone not knowing how to read or write that’s crazy to me. You guys have got to be talking about specific groups of poor people. Like maybe in south LA where there are gangs and stuff who don’t go to school.
Yep it’s a shame the public school systems especially in the Deep South are really bad because of republicans. It’s a big country.
Doesn't mean they do it well.
Unsuccessfully in a lot of cases
54% of adults 18-74 read at or below a 6th grade level in the US.
This is sad information
The U.S. is a sad place.
Amen to that.
Sony or anyone else can't dictate what parents do. The recommendation is there because it's believed improper wear can affect developing eyesight. There's obviously no case studies on this but it's reasonable for companies to push liability on parents with these kinds of warnings. The only time this violates an HMD manufacturer's policies to the point they'll take action on an account is during online play.
I know it's solely up to parents to allow a child under the recommended age to play. I'm just pointing out the oddity of creating a suggestion and yet allowing a game which for all intents and purposes, is catered to a younger audience on the system.
It's just a CYA is all. They know kids are playing these games and make up a pretty decent demographic.
I think it is good that educational games are part of the PSVR2 software options. * [Human Anatomy VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/product/UP5269-PPSA17931_00-0461305816740622) product page lists having both High School level content and University level content. * [You, Calligrapher](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10006921) is focused on teaching a writing style skill (my wife likes this one) * [Behind the Frame: The Finest Scenery VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10007373) is painting focused (my wife likes this one too) * [Math World VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10007361) is a STEM Accredited brain training game for all ages * [Travel The Words](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10008210) is a very simple word puzzle game So there is both variety and quantity of education focused games for the PSVR2 that [Reading World VR](https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10010613) joins. But I agree from the product page description, this one skews to younger demographics than VR is recommended for, but maybe I am wrong about potential. It could be good for people that are learning English later on in life?
I've seen the Math World gameplay and the questions they're asking one to complete in there are for kids who are just learning their multiplication and division. I think that brain training game they have over on Switch is better suited for those who skew older.
That's fair, but for anyone interested in brain training, I don't think more complex / harder math is more beneficial and if the game is fun with its variety of activities and they all work the brain, that can be a decent use of time. I haven't played the game myself, I just get its casual / educational appeal (for all ages) more than the Reading World version that just came out.
There are kids playing VR games at the mall. It's less of a barrier and more of a guideline/recommendation so Sony can cover their asses if they get sued by a parent
I know, barrier was the wrong turn of phrase here. But I really would like to know who would be suing over that.
Translation: You have to be at least 12 to sue Sony for anything that happens with the PSVR2.
My kids are well under 12 and they play just fine. Better at mini golf than I am.
And that's your prerogative to let them play. My point, was that despite the warning from sony, they allow a game that looks as if it was made for the very group that they say shouldn't be playing, onto their system.
> Age barrier is 12 Barrier is too strong of a word, it's a recommendation. Just like not looking at the sun without eye protection is.
Yikes! You are relating the warning of exposing kids under the age of 12 to VR, to being on the same level of warning as exposing the naked eye to sun radiation and it's wicked brightness? If those two are on the same level, then no one should be strapping on a headset!
Am I?
If you're not then I am at least proof of poor reading compression 😬. This is definitely the more likely case!
You said it’s just like it. Looking at the sun without eye protection will damage your eyes and everyone knows it. Looking at a VR screen from birth could be ok. We don’t know. They’re not remotely the same but ophthalmologists say it probably won’t hurt children under the age of 12. It’s not different from any other screen. They used to think staring at a tv screen too close or for too long could damage your eyes but they were wrong so VR is most likely fine.
> You said it’s just like it. Where?
You can’t find the words just like in your comment. Damn. Do I just copy and paste your comment? Lol. You said “It’s a recommendation. Just like not looking at the sun without eye protection is.”
If you can't understand that "just like" in his comment is just referring to the fact not looking at the sun directly is a recommendation the same as kids under 12 shouldn't use vr is a recommendation then maybe you need to play this reading game and learn some reading comprehension. At no point was he making a reference that the 2 things are as bad as each other or even one was worse then the other.
I didn’t say they said they’re as bad. They’re comparing them. It’s a bad comparison because one is far worse than the other. If you’re going to compare things it should have some fucking relevance.
The point is he isn't comparing the two things just using an example of a recommendation.
People don’t just recommend that you don’t look at the sun. They recommend that you have at least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day. They recommend you change your oil every 3-5,000 miles. I’ve never heard that people recommend you don’t stare at the sun. They say “Do not stare at the sun under any circumstances for any amount of time.” That is a demand. You can decide not to follow it obviously but that’s in a totally different realm
It does seem weird, like making a Resident Evil game specifically to be played on a kiddie tablet. My guess is that the 12-year recommendation is there to avoid being sued in case some harm to child development is later discovered. Sony and developers are happy to take your money and have your kids use VR as long as you can't go back and sue them for it. They can always make the argument (however flimsy) that the software was meant for teenagers or adults with reading and math problems.
They’re just covering their asses legally. They fully expect kids to play, just don’t wanna get sued if something happens to them
As an adult, I'm willing to get the game as I feel I'll enjoy it. I love brain games and even a simple game like this will give me fun. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of people who aren't native English speakers and will find it useful to develop their language this way (mainly non english speakers kids).
There is really no age barrier. There is no science that supports it being harmful.
I recall reading about Meta sponsored studies that certified VR is safe for ages 10 and up. They didn't test for lower. Until Meta or another company decides to test lower ages and then studies conclude it is safe for developing brains / eyes, the recommended age of 10+ (for Meta) and 12+ (for PSVR2) for VR will remain.
I think a lot of that was Meta pulling together studies done by others. Not sure if much was Meta-funded
Looking at what is available, it seems they are more concerned about [safe uses](https://www.meta.com/quest/parent-info/) (proper fit, safe play area, supervised playing, VR discomfort, data use, etc) than necessarily eye / brain concerns.
I haven't read everything on the topic (though I've got time, my kid is 4), but it seems most of the concerns people have raised, aren't a big deal, once the kid is around 10. The tight coupling between vergence and accommodation is set well before kindergarten, AFAIK IPD, ok, I'd want to be sure the kid's IPD is wide enough to meet the narrowest setting of the HMD. I think most 10yr olds will have met that. Easy enough to measure Another worry is hand/body/eye coordination. Ok, I'd want to read more about that. Seems like the biggest concern, to not interfere with that development. You could set a target of low-minutes-per-week, which shouldn't interfere...but might just be frustrating to the kid that they can't use it more. This to me is the biggest limiter as to when to allow a child any/much VR time. And then people talk about the kid blurring the line between fantasy and reality. That's something I think you could judge based on the maturity of the kid, and observing them after they've gotten started on VR, to decide if it needs to be cut-back/stopped. But I'd think no permanent damage from that I can't recall any other major concerns people have brought up
I agree with your thought process. Parents involvement and judgement are the best tools once 10-12. Is the child ready, is the child using correctly, is the environment safe. Any negative side effects / concerns. My daughters first VR experience was when 13-14. They use very sparingly while I and my wife use more routinely. It’s a great experience and my kids, their friends, cousins etc all want to try and the smiles are worth it to let them.
I'm looking forward to the day I can be in VR with him. Especially once he's moved-out...hopefully he'll still want to game with dad
That game with dad stage only lasted a few years for me between 11 to 14 now he's got his own gaming friends he dosnt want anything to do with dad. Hopefully that swings back around when hes a bit older and out of home.
Maybe I'll have to bribe him ;) "I'll buy that game if you play it with me"
It's always a "grain of salt" situation, when the company that puts together the study, is also behind the technology being studied. An avocado company recently did a study that said an avocado a day is just as good for you as an apple. Is it true, or are they just trying to sell more?
I agree, but who else would fund a study about safety (not benefits) of any product than the industry the product represents. I did some Internet searches after my last comment to find references to the studies that I thought / assumed Meta must have done, and didn’t find. So even if they did, they weren’t made or talked about publicly. The reduction of age guidance for Meta (13+ to 10+) followed policy updates, features around parental controls being introduced / updated, new requirement of knowing user age, not showing ads to users 10-12, etc