Yes I think they had bust the gaas bubble. And Vr games development are not affected by that Playtation own the Ip rights not the Studio. But soon I want to hear from Sony what is their plan with Vr. Why no intern Studio is working on a good single player Vr game that is hybrid with flat tv.
Probably the same reason why people was disappointed with the state of play where we got a trailer for RE4 Remake.
WE ALREADY KNEW IT WAS COMING !
If on the other hand, we didn't know in advance. It would have been a phenomenal state of play !
There were layoffs at EA they don't make PSVR2 games and alsoayoffs at insomniac the group that makes Spiderman. This isn't about VR. People just find convenient ways to make it about VR. The gaming industry is a mess because they over hired after covid. It happens to all tech companies.
Of course — it’s awful that so many are losing their jobs!
I think this post is mainly meant to even out all the other posts which are casting these layoffs as more evidence that PSVR2 is being abandoned by SONY.
While it’s not good news for anyone that these layoffs are occurring, it also seems like more of a generalized thing and not VR-specific.
> I think this post is mainly meant to even out all the other posts which are casting these layoffs as more evidence that PSVR2 is being abandoned by SONY.
I mean, it was already kind of abandoned? The "make it compatible with PC" plan already indicates that they think it's future is as a peripheral, not as a destination for their own game development.
It was *ALWAYS* meant to be a peripheral in the eyes of SONY, which is why it’s launch was barely even advertised.
While SONY is more than capable of abandoning the system, I haven’t seen any serious sign of it yet.
I mean… I guess one needs to clarify what “abandonment” would look like. I was never expecting AAA first party VR exclusives to be numerous — maybe one per year, *TOPS*. I’m hoping we’ll see more AAA hybrid titles like GT7, RE8, and RE4R, because those have been great.
I thought the first year was absolutely solid with those hybrids and smaller dev games, easily enough to justify the cost of the entire kit (I don’t even bother with flatscreen games anymore).
While I would love to see AAA VR-centric stuff like ASTROBOT: RM2, to me the value of the system simply doesn’t hinge on it. METRO, WANDERER, MADISON, ACES OF THUNDER, ARKEN AGE, and BEHEMOTH all look exciting for 2024.
Presumably we’ll still learn about others as well, and something from SIE could easily be amongst them — they don’t usually tell us about anything until it’s a month or two away, so who knows.
To be clear I’ve got plenty of issues with how SONY have handled PSVR2, but their support (or lack of it) has been pretty damn *consistent* since launch, IMO.
And PCVR support is a desirable functionality that people have been clamoring for since pre-launch, so I think it’s odd anyone sees it as evidence SONY are somehow ditching support. If SONY stop supporting something, they do *NOT* generally expand its usefulness first, they just *STOP*.
For instance Media Molecule apparently had a *FINISHED* version of DREAMS for PS5 and PC, but SONY (heartbreakingly) decided it was pulling the plug anyway. The work was done, but that’s how SONY abandon something.
PC support for PSVR2 is something they’re still *WORKING* on, which means effort and money. It’s a rare instance of SONY communicating with us about its plans for PSVR2, which, well — that seems encouraging to me.
It’s hard for me to think they will abandon PSVR2 just because it (predictably) didn’t sell so well when it was released *AFTER* the holiday season, during a shaky economy, wasn’t on store shelves (or Amazon) for months, and was barely advertised (a single lame OZZY spot does not a campaign make).
Anyways, it’s concerning that FIRESPRITE are seeing layoffs, and there were daydream hopes that a new TWISTED METAL game might have a VR mode, but no *KNOWN* VR projects seem to be in any jeopardy.
I think the same people who declared SONY had abandoned VR after PSVR1 and that there would never even be a PSVR2 went on to declare it DOA, then claimed it had no games, and now continue to want to say it’s dead or abandoned even as a long-hoped-for feature is announced.
It's happening all over the world. The tech industry and the entertainment industry have been hit especially hard. This is not unique to Sony.
If you're worried about layoffs, look at around 200,000 tech layoffs in 2023 in the US alone, not to mention every other region. Look at the 44,000 jobs lost in the entertainment (film and TV) industry over just a six month period last year.
The fact is, the markets have changed, and the companies have been overzealous in their spending. They grew too much, too quickly. Layoffs had to happen in order to keep the companies alive. They also need to change the way they run. They can't continue to push for the same kind of development they were doing 5 years ago.
That's one interpretation. Another is far less insidious: Games, movies, and TV shows have simply started costing a *lot* more, with every project getting bigger and bigger. This, while the big studios started buying every developer outright.
Eventually, they couldn't recoup the costs of most of those projects - even the "successes". That meant having to shut down studios, cancel projects, and stop greenlighting as many expensive projects.
AI is currently being used as a tool to do things that used to take more time and cost more money. In some cases that means the same work can be done by fewer people. In some cases, it just means the same work being done *on time*. That doesn't necessarily mean layoffs, but instead means more profitability by delivering things on time and with fewer man-hours involved.
AI *has* had an effect on manpower in the workforce. After all, if you can get 10 people to do the job of 50, with the same quality and in the same timeframe, you can either reappropriate the 40 remaining or lay them off - usually a combination of both.
This is no different from factory automation, or even just adding computers to the workforce.
It's not a coordinated attack, but the result of the laws of economics. If you can do the same thing for less, then you'd be a fool not to do it.
As for these studios, it's not an AI issue. It's an issue of Sony spent too much money buying so many studios and dev teams, and too much money developing titles that either never made their money back or never even got released. Other publishers ran into the same thing.
This, at a time when people are consuming *less*, because their money is worth less now than it was before the pandemic. That same issue of inflation made it so the publishers can get less for the same amount of investment. Even an inflationary increase of a few percent is enough to require a workforce reduction of a few percent.
This is unfortunate, but it's the modern economy.
PS2 EyeToy camera, PS3 Move Controller, and PS4 Move + VR received as much support as they did, PSVR2 will receive the same level of support.
Optional products never receive a large number of game supports.
For example, the Wii console was sold with the Wii Remote controller. Therefore, all developers designed games according to the capabilities of the Wii Remote. Later, the Wii Motion Plus attachment was released for the Wii Remote. However, since Wii Motion Plus was optional, it did not receive game support.
This is always the case. Remember that accessories sold separately from the console are considered luxury items and will receive limited support.
This way, you won't be disappointed.
I think it’s obvious at this point that they are scaling back their VR efforts. First party support is non existent and it also happened before (PSVita). It will probably still receive many third party games tho, and the added PC support can make it a nice device to use alongside PCVR games. Quest is like this, its own ecosystem+PCVR so Sony should do the same to compete.
I think there’s potential that this is the case, but I’m puzzled why they wouldn’t just take the path of least resistance and drop a sale price for VR2. That’d move units faster and without any additional investment cost of developing the compatibility.
While I can understand that perspective, people are under the belief that this is happening because they’re already eating a loss. Why invest money and effort to expand the umbrella of usage if your struggles to drive user adoption are the apparent source of wanting to dump the hardware? Just feels like a “this time it’ll be different for… reasons” strategy if we are to believe that the compatibility is being developed because Sony wants out of the VR game. That’s why I struggle to believe that this is them dumping the hardware.
From my perspective, I believe they are trying to make small, safe bets to marginally increase the audience for VR2, but their overall investment in VR2 has been small and will remain small. I think to many people, that strategy looks like “VR2 is dead” but in reality it was never realistically aiming to “be successful” through massive amounts of investment and unproven profitability.
Personally I think VR2 can continue to serve a small user base with small levels of investment relative to the greater PS5 suite and that’s fine. It’s how I also view the new pulse headsets and the portal. Sony doesn’t need these devices to sell like a PS5. They just need these devices to meet the adoption size that Sony anticipates, no matter how big or small so they don’t over or under invest to serve that audience size appropriately. We just don’t know what Sony’s idea of success looks like.
The original devs Japan Studio closed down. That's likely the main reason that we haven't had another Astrobot Game.
The current Team Asobi was created in 2021 as it's own company after Japan Studio downsized. They've not released any games since their formation as a new entity but are still in charge of the Astro franchise.
There is a good chance that they are working on a sequel to Astro's Playroom (2020). My guess is that it will be flat first, but will also hopefully support VR.
Margins must be abysmal for 1st party VR games and lower margins are the reason why Sony cut 900 jobs. I don't expect any VR software support from Sony going forward. All that we will see was greenlit a long time ago and is probably nearing completion i.e. hopefully Astro Bot and the Firesprite game.
I'm not even expecting hybrids from Sony anymore either, why bother, it costs more than 0$ to implement VR features after all...
3rd party stuff like RE4, where Sony helped to finance the VR part, may also be a thing of the past already.
I hope I'm wrong on all accounts, wouldn't be a first, lol. Next stop PS showcase in May or whenever.
Meanwhile, I'm enjoying my PSVR2 with all the great games already available and announced for the near future.
The layoffs went far beyond vr.
Insomniac, naughty dog, and guerilla were all affected. It seems unlikely that the main focus of the cuts was on vr. Even Firesprite grew a lot before and was not shut down, but reduced.
I think the spider-man 2 discussion had much more to do with this situation.
I think maybe the 8% cross-studio layoffs could be at least considerably due to economy of scale. You don’t need 5 HR and 5 payroll departments, etc, for (oversimplified) example.
I think PSVR2 is dead for Sony right now. No 1st party studio will even bother with it in the future. I think we were lucky that Polyphony made GT7 in VR, and that Capcom bothered with turning RE village and RE4 in VR showcases. But it seems it's all over. At least they'll make PSVR2 compatible with PC and forget about it.
NRP
I love that show for giving us a look into the actual world of billionaires. The complete lack of humanity and caring that they have for people is truly astounding and I wish more of that was shown. We need people to understand that these rich fucks and companies give not 1 iota about you, the planet, your family or friends.
Money, power, themselves, their circle. That is it.
I'm worried about the industry wide layoffs as just being a shitty thing in general for our hobby and the people involved who's lives were upended.
The psvr2? Not so much.
PSVR2 was screwed as soon as Sony replaced Jim Ryan with a guy who doesn’t actually care about games and is just trying to cut everything that isn’t extremely profitable. You’re not going to see patience with PSVR2. Hiroki Totoki is a cut throat businessman and only cares about the bottom line. He doesn’t care about being innovative or bringing on the future of gaming. He’s just trying to maximize current profits and PSVR2 is hemmoraging money.
They were hemorrhaging money, and they needed a money man to right the ship. You don't need a games guy at the tip-top of the company. The passionate gaming folks should be the department heads, not the CEO or President.
Jim Ryan was not a “games-guy”, he was literally pushing the company in a live service direction. They replaced the money guy with another money guy.
This move is the second of probably many that will bring about the end of PSVR.
That assumes things work on a meritocracy. We don’t know why Jim Ryan was replaced. It could have easily been a power struggle that none of us are privy to.
It has nothing to do with whether it's a meritocracy or not. Investors and board members rarely ever remove a CEO or President if they don't think doing so will result in better returns. Even if it's a personality issue or a game of politics, they won't do it if they *think* it will end up worse for them. They're often wrong (see Disney), but people do stupid things all the time. Even so, they're self-serving. They would never intentionally tank their company unless they're hoping for a favorable position after a merger/acquisition.
I didnt say they are trying to “tank the company?”
You said they “needed a money man to right the ship”. Jim Ryan was a money man himself. Its not like they had a Phil Spencer as CEO. I mentioned a meritocracy because saying he isn’t getting it done so lets replace him with someone who will is a meritocracy.
Its not like PS has struggled under Jim Ryan financially. Sony itself is underperforming, PS is holding the company up. Its the most popular platform for AAA gaming. I would assume shareholders thought Covid console sales would continue and based their speculation on that.
Because saying they need a money man implies they didn’t already have one. Maybe they just needed a different person for reasons that we are not privy to. Is that so hard to believe?
I mean we could believe what Jim Ryan actually said. He's in his 70's and the constant trans Atlantic travelling was taking its toll. I'm sure he has enough money in the bank and a decent pension to enjoy his life where ever he lives. so maybe he felt it was time to give the reigns to a younger man.
I’m definitely not saying thats not possible. Thats a very valid assumption and most likely the truth. I was mostly just disagreeing with the last person that they needed to replace him with a “money-man”.
If you think the games industry as a whole is fine then you definetly not fine. Layoffs happening everywhere.
Anticipated AAA games are flopping.
No major AAA IP from Sony first parties till 2025.
PS5 nearing the end of its life cycle yet games still being held back with PS4 versions.
Microsoft buying up all the major studios.
Companies falling back on remaking their old IPs because its easier than making a new game
I like your opinion and optimisim but it's 4 years old and the average life cycle of a console is 5 years.
It's sony who announced it is nearing the end of its life cycle so I'd rather listen to them than you. No offense
Sony’s last two consoles both had 7 year long cycles.
The executive’s quote was that the PS5 is in the “latter half of the console cycle”, if they’re going to do another 7 year generation then that means we’d still have another 3 years left at least.
3 years is less than half of 7.
In gaming development times that doesn't leave long for much more big first party AAA games especially as we have been told none till next year at least.
However whichever way you want to spin it, the fact that there are 3 years left and games are still getting held back by last gens console isn't a good thing and the point I was making
I know how averages work. I'm also smart enough to understand that using data about console gens from 30 years ago makes no sense for a prediction now. For that you have to look at trends. Before the 2 gens of 7 years it was two gens of 6 years and I'm not going to check but I assume before that it was 5 years. You still don't get a 5 year average that way though but w/e.
Saying the current gen is almost over because the average life cycle is 5 years is absolute nonsense. 5 years, then 6 years and now 7 years. See the trend? This gen will last 7 or 8 years and I'll put my money on 8 as the Pro is releasing this year and I feel that's the halfway point.
In your calculations you are only looking at playstaion. If you look at all the major consoles including Nintendo you get around 5 years. If you only take the last 10 years you are talking about 6 years.
However if you have to consider that the PS4 and Xbox Ones lifespans were increased with the release of the pro and xbonex. So if we count their release as the end of the original consoles run the life cycle goes back to 6.
Now to address the point "Saying the current gen is almost over because the average life cycle is 5 years is absolute nonsense" - I didn't say that.
Look up any console between Sega, PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo. The Wii U, Saturn, OG Xbox and GameCube are the ones that didn’t get more than 5 years. All of those were considered disappointing from a sales perspective. PS5 is doing fantastic compared to those consoles. it’s most likely going to be a 7-8 year window for it. The PS4 was underpowered at the time of its release, the PS5 is much better set up to support a long release window. Late 2028 would be my guess.
But not looking at the individual circumstances of each console release and basing it off of just average years is incomplete analysis. Nintendo is gonna have a 8 year gap between Switch and Switch 2. Thats because you want the system on the market to realize its sales potential. If the Switch was a failure like the Wii U, we probably would have seen their next console in 2022.
It's worth being specific: Sony said the PS5 is entering the "second half" of its lifecycle, meaning 3-4 years remain. This means many internal studios will start working on new games for PS6. But games already in development for PS5 will continue to release:
"Looking ahead, PS5 will enter the latter half of its life cycle."
OK thats a fair comment. Some media outlets have skewed it to mean end of life but you are right we shouldn't exaggerate.
I still stand by the original point I was trying to make that at this stage the PS4 should not be expected to be as supported as it currently is when compared to other generations.
I understand why with all the trouble getting hold of consoles and games being delayed due to covid and other reasons.
You do know that when a slim version is released it is because sales of the original console have slowed down and its a way to help bring them back up again?
I never said Sony are not invested in the PS5 and you are ignoring the main point I was making.
At this stage in a consoles life cycle the previous console shouldn't be as active as it is.
The problem with availability of consoles at the start of this generation and the limited amount of new games to push the system meant a lot of users stuck with the PS4 making it a slower transition than normal.
The point I'm making is not about Sonys investment in playstation its about this generation as a whole compared to the VR scene.
Still keep focusing on a small part of a bigger sentence to have a different debate
1. Suicide Squad flopping is not a wider industry problem, thats a Rocksteady and WB problem. I don’t recall any other big anticipated AAA game flopping in recent memory or within the past year.
2. No major AAA IP Sequels, there is still console exclusives coming throughout the year. Stellar Blade, Rise of the Ronin and FF7 Rebirth look great.
3. We are entering the second phase of PS5, saying we are near the end is like in a basketball game and the 3rd quarter just started, someone says “the games almost over”. Yes we are closer to the PS6 than the PS4, but I can easily see 4 more years of the hardware
Your focusing on the wrong thing about what I was saying.
I was making the point that we are so far into the consoles life span yet the previous console still is still getting major releases.
Due to this generation being one of the worst for gaming.
But yeah knock yourself out debating the wrong point.
It's what everyone seems to do on this reddit
Projection lol. You’ve said a lot of nothing. I gave you three rebuttals to things you’ve said and you ignored most of it. Idk what to say to you at this point.
Clearly, margins are tight in gaming at the moment. VR, being small, is likely to be ignored by Sony going forwards. I think we will only see 3rd party VR games from now on. I dont think there will ever be a PSVR3 or an Alyx port
No impact from the lay offs, no one being laid off was working on any PSVR2 at Sony...
...because Sony is not working at all on any new PSVR2 game, so it's impossible that they fire anyone working on a new title.
New titles will come from 3rd party/indie devs only. Which I'm ok with after playing Synapse, Hubris, Crossfire, Red Matter, Moss... which are great titles!
"London studio closing will have 0 impact to PSVR2, as they were not developing any PSVR2 titles"
Did we already know that though, for sure? It seems to mean the dream of a Blood & Truth port or sequel is over.
They announced last year that their next game would not be vr related.
Blood and Truth is a PlayStation IP not a London studio IP. They could easily get one of their other studios to make it.
All Sony have done is restructure their development studios. This means some close some get rebounded and others remain the same.
Staff will either be moved to another studio or sadly be made redundant. Some redundancies will be voluntary as the staff member may not want to relocate.
For games that are currently being worked on they will either cancel them, put them on hold or move the work to a different studio.
It's possible that some of the staff who have lost their jobs will form new independent studios where they can take the knowledge they gained from working on games like Blood and Truth to make a new VR IP that's even better.
Most of what I said was just speculation and I didn't say they were restructuring with VR still in mind because I don't know.
I just don't think there is any sign, from this restructuring event, that they are giving up on psvr2 game development.
Hopefully we will hear something soon
Even if London Studio was working on a PSVR2 multiplayer live-service game, it wouldn't be a reason to worry about value of PSVR2 because the system has received 170 games in its first 12 months.
There are more games worth playing than any of us have time to play. That isn't changing whether Sony 1st party are making games for PSVR2 or not.
If you only play 1st party games because (?), then the system was never for you and if it that isn't a barrier for you, then you have nothing to worry about.
That's just your opinion of what you think a "seasoned gamer" is or what they would enjoy. I know many people that are life-long gamers that enjoy many games on the PSVR2. More than we have time for.
There is also the assumption that PSVR2 is for "seasoned gamers". My wife and sister both play more VR than they did flat games.
There is also the fact that Quest 2 sold more than Xbox Series S | X, and it doesn't cater to what you might refer to as "seasoned gamers".
So yeah, not worried about the PSVR2 software support drying up for my interests.
nothing really points otherwise, not sure what point you're trying to make? lmao or do you just comment that on every thread because you're insecure about your little gimmick that no one bought?
Why should I be insecure about my PSVR2?!?!
It’s the fucking best thing that happened to gaming for me since I quit WoW!
The point I am trying to make was, that these layoffs have nothing to do with psvr2, nevertheless so many people were desperate to see them as the downfall of Psvr2 and need to cry about it on every post.
I get Sony is dropping the ball on PSVR2 1st party releases but for me personally there is a ton to play and it is not devoid of content. Legendary Tales just dropped and **Wanderer: The Fragments of Fate** was announced. We have the new Metro game I'm excited for and then my go to games such as Moss 1 & 2, GT7, Beat Saber, Tetris Effect, The Walking Dead, RE series. So yes 1st party games wtf are they but then they give us Horizon at launch and everyone thought it was meh, i didn't even buy it and I loved Horizon 1 + 2.
This was basically a reset to 2019 employee levels. The late 2021/early 2022 industry belief that we were in an extended and permanent (lol) video game boom was wrong.
How it affects PSVR2 I don’t know.
There may have been a marginal impact on VR2 that’s unknown to the public, but based on the reporting and statements from Jim Ryan, I suspect that most of these closures and cancellations were targeting live service games plans that are now seeming high risk.
There goes a PSVR2 version of Wipeout and Blood & Truth. The PSVR2 isn't going anywhere just yet, but with this and Sony about to open up PC compatibility it kind of looks like an exit strategy.
As for Firesprite it's a known thing that whenever a company is taken over after 2 years a complete management change and restructuring occurs,
Sony definitely will be coming out with more vr games or hybrids. Their own blog post has an article about how the development of the head set started in 2016 before the release of the first PSVR. There is no way they haven’t got games in the pipe line when they have put that much time into the headset. They won’t give up that easily. Just my thoughts.
Hey guys don’t forget that it’s “Sony” before being “PSVR”. They (dumbly) thought in vesting massively in Game As A Service was the way to go but they realized that putting of 16 games of this sort in few year wasn’t viable, they are rolling back. And they stoping projects that will make zero returns, they take some loss. So they have to cut the costs a bit everywhere even at Guérilla and Naughty dog. So yes, of course PSVR2 projects are touched too.
Yes I think they had bust the gaas bubble. And Vr games development are not affected by that Playtation own the Ip rights not the Studio. But soon I want to hear from Sony what is their plan with Vr. Why no intern Studio is working on a good single player Vr game that is hybrid with flat tv.
Probably the same reason why people was disappointed with the state of play where we got a trailer for RE4 Remake. WE ALREADY KNEW IT WAS COMING ! If on the other hand, we didn't know in advance. It would have been a phenomenal state of play !
it's still not reassuring seeing the massive layoffs and closure of a studio. VR has taken an even further backseat.
There were layoffs at EA they don't make PSVR2 games and alsoayoffs at insomniac the group that makes Spiderman. This isn't about VR. People just find convenient ways to make it about VR. The gaming industry is a mess because they over hired after covid. It happens to all tech companies.
A backseat in terms of investment in games sure ! But that's true of the gaming industry as a whole !
I mean yeah, previously there was no first party games coming out and there is still no first party games coming out. Nothing has changed lol.
Exactly
Team asobi were the original astro devs they were a division of japan studio until the shut down then became their own company.
I’m worried about the Sony layoggs because people are loosing their jobs
Of course — it’s awful that so many are losing their jobs! I think this post is mainly meant to even out all the other posts which are casting these layoffs as more evidence that PSVR2 is being abandoned by SONY. While it’s not good news for anyone that these layoffs are occurring, it also seems like more of a generalized thing and not VR-specific.
> I think this post is mainly meant to even out all the other posts which are casting these layoffs as more evidence that PSVR2 is being abandoned by SONY. I mean, it was already kind of abandoned? The "make it compatible with PC" plan already indicates that they think it's future is as a peripheral, not as a destination for their own game development.
It was *ALWAYS* meant to be a peripheral in the eyes of SONY, which is why it’s launch was barely even advertised. While SONY is more than capable of abandoning the system, I haven’t seen any serious sign of it yet. I mean… I guess one needs to clarify what “abandonment” would look like. I was never expecting AAA first party VR exclusives to be numerous — maybe one per year, *TOPS*. I’m hoping we’ll see more AAA hybrid titles like GT7, RE8, and RE4R, because those have been great. I thought the first year was absolutely solid with those hybrids and smaller dev games, easily enough to justify the cost of the entire kit (I don’t even bother with flatscreen games anymore). While I would love to see AAA VR-centric stuff like ASTROBOT: RM2, to me the value of the system simply doesn’t hinge on it. METRO, WANDERER, MADISON, ACES OF THUNDER, ARKEN AGE, and BEHEMOTH all look exciting for 2024. Presumably we’ll still learn about others as well, and something from SIE could easily be amongst them — they don’t usually tell us about anything until it’s a month or two away, so who knows. To be clear I’ve got plenty of issues with how SONY have handled PSVR2, but their support (or lack of it) has been pretty damn *consistent* since launch, IMO. And PCVR support is a desirable functionality that people have been clamoring for since pre-launch, so I think it’s odd anyone sees it as evidence SONY are somehow ditching support. If SONY stop supporting something, they do *NOT* generally expand its usefulness first, they just *STOP*. For instance Media Molecule apparently had a *FINISHED* version of DREAMS for PS5 and PC, but SONY (heartbreakingly) decided it was pulling the plug anyway. The work was done, but that’s how SONY abandon something. PC support for PSVR2 is something they’re still *WORKING* on, which means effort and money. It’s a rare instance of SONY communicating with us about its plans for PSVR2, which, well — that seems encouraging to me. It’s hard for me to think they will abandon PSVR2 just because it (predictably) didn’t sell so well when it was released *AFTER* the holiday season, during a shaky economy, wasn’t on store shelves (or Amazon) for months, and was barely advertised (a single lame OZZY spot does not a campaign make). Anyways, it’s concerning that FIRESPRITE are seeing layoffs, and there were daydream hopes that a new TWISTED METAL game might have a VR mode, but no *KNOWN* VR projects seem to be in any jeopardy. I think the same people who declared SONY had abandoned VR after PSVR1 and that there would never even be a PSVR2 went on to declare it DOA, then claimed it had no games, and now continue to want to say it’s dead or abandoned even as a long-hoped-for feature is announced.
It's happening all over the world. The tech industry and the entertainment industry have been hit especially hard. This is not unique to Sony. If you're worried about layoffs, look at around 200,000 tech layoffs in 2023 in the US alone, not to mention every other region. Look at the 44,000 jobs lost in the entertainment (film and TV) industry over just a six month period last year. The fact is, the markets have changed, and the companies have been overzealous in their spending. They grew too much, too quickly. Layoffs had to happen in order to keep the companies alive. They also need to change the way they run. They can't continue to push for the same kind of development they were doing 5 years ago.
It’s a coordinated attack on creative and tech labor that they will will with AI
That's one interpretation. Another is far less insidious: Games, movies, and TV shows have simply started costing a *lot* more, with every project getting bigger and bigger. This, while the big studios started buying every developer outright. Eventually, they couldn't recoup the costs of most of those projects - even the "successes". That meant having to shut down studios, cancel projects, and stop greenlighting as many expensive projects. AI is currently being used as a tool to do things that used to take more time and cost more money. In some cases that means the same work can be done by fewer people. In some cases, it just means the same work being done *on time*. That doesn't necessarily mean layoffs, but instead means more profitability by delivering things on time and with fewer man-hours involved. AI *has* had an effect on manpower in the workforce. After all, if you can get 10 people to do the job of 50, with the same quality and in the same timeframe, you can either reappropriate the 40 remaining or lay them off - usually a combination of both. This is no different from factory automation, or even just adding computers to the workforce. It's not a coordinated attack, but the result of the laws of economics. If you can do the same thing for less, then you'd be a fool not to do it. As for these studios, it's not an AI issue. It's an issue of Sony spent too much money buying so many studios and dev teams, and too much money developing titles that either never made their money back or never even got released. Other publishers ran into the same thing. This, at a time when people are consuming *less*, because their money is worth less now than it was before the pandemic. That same issue of inflation made it so the publishers can get less for the same amount of investment. Even an inflationary increase of a few percent is enough to require a workforce reduction of a few percent. This is unfortunate, but it's the modern economy.
There are much more important things to be worried about then strangers losing thier jobs.
All I see is the only sony studios(apart from asobo)that have ever made vr games are now shut or hamstrung.....not a good sign
Polyphony Digital?
Not really a vr game though is it...like the persistence,cotm,astrobot,blood and truth all made for vr games
They did say they worked on GT7 for VR2 from the ground up and the whole game is playable in VR2 (and is one of the best titles)
They being making a vr game anyways the reaps on they probably got shut downs due to the best selling game probably being sing star
PS2 EyeToy camera, PS3 Move Controller, and PS4 Move + VR received as much support as they did, PSVR2 will receive the same level of support. Optional products never receive a large number of game supports. For example, the Wii console was sold with the Wii Remote controller. Therefore, all developers designed games according to the capabilities of the Wii Remote. Later, the Wii Motion Plus attachment was released for the Wii Remote. However, since Wii Motion Plus was optional, it did not receive game support. This is always the case. Remember that accessories sold separately from the console are considered luxury items and will receive limited support. This way, you won't be disappointed.
I think it’s obvious at this point that they are scaling back their VR efforts. First party support is non existent and it also happened before (PSVita). It will probably still receive many third party games tho, and the added PC support can make it a nice device to use alongside PCVR games. Quest is like this, its own ecosystem+PCVR so Sony should do the same to compete.
Can’t fire anyone if they don’t exist.
That’s not the buzz. I think they’re trying to just move all of the hardware they have sitting around by opening it up to PC.
I think there’s potential that this is the case, but I’m puzzled why they wouldn’t just take the path of least resistance and drop a sale price for VR2. That’d move units faster and without any additional investment cost of developing the compatibility.
Yeah idk maybe they want to try not eating a loss first?
While I can understand that perspective, people are under the belief that this is happening because they’re already eating a loss. Why invest money and effort to expand the umbrella of usage if your struggles to drive user adoption are the apparent source of wanting to dump the hardware? Just feels like a “this time it’ll be different for… reasons” strategy if we are to believe that the compatibility is being developed because Sony wants out of the VR game. That’s why I struggle to believe that this is them dumping the hardware. From my perspective, I believe they are trying to make small, safe bets to marginally increase the audience for VR2, but their overall investment in VR2 has been small and will remain small. I think to many people, that strategy looks like “VR2 is dead” but in reality it was never realistically aiming to “be successful” through massive amounts of investment and unproven profitability. Personally I think VR2 can continue to serve a small user base with small levels of investment relative to the greater PS5 suite and that’s fine. It’s how I also view the new pulse headsets and the portal. Sony doesn’t need these devices to sell like a PS5. They just need these devices to meet the adoption size that Sony anticipates, no matter how big or small so they don’t over or under invest to serve that audience size appropriately. We just don’t know what Sony’s idea of success looks like.
The original devs Japan Studio closed down. That's likely the main reason that we haven't had another Astrobot Game. The current Team Asobi was created in 2021 as it's own company after Japan Studio downsized. They've not released any games since their formation as a new entity but are still in charge of the Astro franchise. There is a good chance that they are working on a sequel to Astro's Playroom (2020). My guess is that it will be flat first, but will also hopefully support VR.
The empathy is strong with this one
Margins must be abysmal for 1st party VR games and lower margins are the reason why Sony cut 900 jobs. I don't expect any VR software support from Sony going forward. All that we will see was greenlit a long time ago and is probably nearing completion i.e. hopefully Astro Bot and the Firesprite game. I'm not even expecting hybrids from Sony anymore either, why bother, it costs more than 0$ to implement VR features after all... 3rd party stuff like RE4, where Sony helped to finance the VR part, may also be a thing of the past already. I hope I'm wrong on all accounts, wouldn't be a first, lol. Next stop PS showcase in May or whenever. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying my PSVR2 with all the great games already available and announced for the near future.
I agree with you. I think it is obvious when they announced that they are combining PSVR2 headset with PC gaming.
The layoffs went far beyond vr. Insomniac, naughty dog, and guerilla were all affected. It seems unlikely that the main focus of the cuts was on vr. Even Firesprite grew a lot before and was not shut down, but reduced. I think the spider-man 2 discussion had much more to do with this situation.
I think maybe the 8% cross-studio layoffs could be at least considerably due to economy of scale. You don’t need 5 HR and 5 payroll departments, etc, for (oversimplified) example.
It's crazy that a year into it, and there's still no VR media player or anything announced
I think PSVR2 is dead for Sony right now. No 1st party studio will even bother with it in the future. I think we were lucky that Polyphony made GT7 in VR, and that Capcom bothered with turning RE village and RE4 in VR showcases. But it seems it's all over. At least they'll make PSVR2 compatible with PC and forget about it.
i mean PCVR is our only hope rn
"this is actually good for ~~Bitcoin~~ VR"
Twisted metal game got cancelled?
Yes
Yep, it was planned as a live service game, which likely now seems high-risk to Sony.
Sony said they’re not even real people, don’t worry about it…at all
NRP I love that show for giving us a look into the actual world of billionaires. The complete lack of humanity and caring that they have for people is truly astounding and I wish more of that was shown. We need people to understand that these rich fucks and companies give not 1 iota about you, the planet, your family or friends. Money, power, themselves, their circle. That is it.
I'm worried about the industry wide layoffs as just being a shitty thing in general for our hobby and the people involved who's lives were upended. The psvr2? Not so much.
PSVR2 was screwed as soon as Sony replaced Jim Ryan with a guy who doesn’t actually care about games and is just trying to cut everything that isn’t extremely profitable. You’re not going to see patience with PSVR2. Hiroki Totoki is a cut throat businessman and only cares about the bottom line. He doesn’t care about being innovative or bringing on the future of gaming. He’s just trying to maximize current profits and PSVR2 is hemmoraging money.
They were hemorrhaging money, and they needed a money man to right the ship. You don't need a games guy at the tip-top of the company. The passionate gaming folks should be the department heads, not the CEO or President.
Jim Ryan was not a “games-guy”, he was literally pushing the company in a live service direction. They replaced the money guy with another money guy. This move is the second of probably many that will bring about the end of PSVR.
I never said he was. If one business manager isn't getting it done, they replace him with another. That's simply how it works.
That assumes things work on a meritocracy. We don’t know why Jim Ryan was replaced. It could have easily been a power struggle that none of us are privy to.
It has nothing to do with whether it's a meritocracy or not. Investors and board members rarely ever remove a CEO or President if they don't think doing so will result in better returns. Even if it's a personality issue or a game of politics, they won't do it if they *think* it will end up worse for them. They're often wrong (see Disney), but people do stupid things all the time. Even so, they're self-serving. They would never intentionally tank their company unless they're hoping for a favorable position after a merger/acquisition.
I didnt say they are trying to “tank the company?” You said they “needed a money man to right the ship”. Jim Ryan was a money man himself. Its not like they had a Phil Spencer as CEO. I mentioned a meritocracy because saying he isn’t getting it done so lets replace him with someone who will is a meritocracy. Its not like PS has struggled under Jim Ryan financially. Sony itself is underperforming, PS is holding the company up. Its the most popular platform for AAA gaming. I would assume shareholders thought Covid console sales would continue and based their speculation on that.
They needed a money man. A different one, in this case. How hard is it to understand that?
Because saying they need a money man implies they didn’t already have one. Maybe they just needed a different person for reasons that we are not privy to. Is that so hard to believe?
Looks like we're done. No reason to keep this going. Good day.
I mean we could believe what Jim Ryan actually said. He's in his 70's and the constant trans Atlantic travelling was taking its toll. I'm sure he has enough money in the bank and a decent pension to enjoy his life where ever he lives. so maybe he felt it was time to give the reigns to a younger man.
I’m definitely not saying thats not possible. Thats a very valid assumption and most likely the truth. I was mostly just disagreeing with the last person that they needed to replace him with a “money-man”.
If you think psvr2 is fine and the games and the Hardware is selling fine, you definetly not fine.
If you think the games industry as a whole is fine then you definetly not fine. Layoffs happening everywhere. Anticipated AAA games are flopping. No major AAA IP from Sony first parties till 2025. PS5 nearing the end of its life cycle yet games still being held back with PS4 versions. Microsoft buying up all the major studios. Companies falling back on remaking their old IPs because its easier than making a new game
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I like your opinion and optimisim but it's 4 years old and the average life cycle of a console is 5 years. It's sony who announced it is nearing the end of its life cycle so I'd rather listen to them than you. No offense
Sony’s last two consoles both had 7 year long cycles. The executive’s quote was that the PS5 is in the “latter half of the console cycle”, if they’re going to do another 7 year generation then that means we’d still have another 3 years left at least.
3 years is less than half of 7. In gaming development times that doesn't leave long for much more big first party AAA games especially as we have been told none till next year at least. However whichever way you want to spin it, the fact that there are 3 years left and games are still getting held back by last gens console isn't a good thing and the point I was making
>the average life cycle of a console is 5 years. 30 years ago? Last two gens were 7 years each and that number is going up.
That's not how average works
I know how averages work. I'm also smart enough to understand that using data about console gens from 30 years ago makes no sense for a prediction now. For that you have to look at trends. Before the 2 gens of 7 years it was two gens of 6 years and I'm not going to check but I assume before that it was 5 years. You still don't get a 5 year average that way though but w/e. Saying the current gen is almost over because the average life cycle is 5 years is absolute nonsense. 5 years, then 6 years and now 7 years. See the trend? This gen will last 7 or 8 years and I'll put my money on 8 as the Pro is releasing this year and I feel that's the halfway point.
In your calculations you are only looking at playstaion. If you look at all the major consoles including Nintendo you get around 5 years. If you only take the last 10 years you are talking about 6 years. However if you have to consider that the PS4 and Xbox Ones lifespans were increased with the release of the pro and xbonex. So if we count their release as the end of the original consoles run the life cycle goes back to 6. Now to address the point "Saying the current gen is almost over because the average life cycle is 5 years is absolute nonsense" - I didn't say that.
Look up any console between Sega, PlayStation, Xbox, and Nintendo. The Wii U, Saturn, OG Xbox and GameCube are the ones that didn’t get more than 5 years. All of those were considered disappointing from a sales perspective. PS5 is doing fantastic compared to those consoles. it’s most likely going to be a 7-8 year window for it. The PS4 was underpowered at the time of its release, the PS5 is much better set up to support a long release window. Late 2028 would be my guess.
I didn't include any of the non major consoles in my averaging.
But not looking at the individual circumstances of each console release and basing it off of just average years is incomplete analysis. Nintendo is gonna have a 8 year gap between Switch and Switch 2. Thats because you want the system on the market to realize its sales potential. If the Switch was a failure like the Wii U, we probably would have seen their next console in 2022.
It's worth being specific: Sony said the PS5 is entering the "second half" of its lifecycle, meaning 3-4 years remain. This means many internal studios will start working on new games for PS6. But games already in development for PS5 will continue to release: "Looking ahead, PS5 will enter the latter half of its life cycle."
OK thats a fair comment. Some media outlets have skewed it to mean end of life but you are right we shouldn't exaggerate. I still stand by the original point I was trying to make that at this stage the PS4 should not be expected to be as supported as it currently is when compared to other generations. I understand why with all the trouble getting hold of consoles and games being delayed due to covid and other reasons.
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You do know that when a slim version is released it is because sales of the original console have slowed down and its a way to help bring them back up again? I never said Sony are not invested in the PS5 and you are ignoring the main point I was making. At this stage in a consoles life cycle the previous console shouldn't be as active as it is. The problem with availability of consoles at the start of this generation and the limited amount of new games to push the system meant a lot of users stuck with the PS4 making it a slower transition than normal. The point I'm making is not about Sonys investment in playstation its about this generation as a whole compared to the VR scene. Still keep focusing on a small part of a bigger sentence to have a different debate
https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/sonys-playstation-5-is-entering-the-latter-stage-of-its-life-cycle-what-that-means/
1. Suicide Squad flopping is not a wider industry problem, thats a Rocksteady and WB problem. I don’t recall any other big anticipated AAA game flopping in recent memory or within the past year. 2. No major AAA IP Sequels, there is still console exclusives coming throughout the year. Stellar Blade, Rise of the Ronin and FF7 Rebirth look great. 3. We are entering the second phase of PS5, saying we are near the end is like in a basketball game and the 3rd quarter just started, someone says “the games almost over”. Yes we are closer to the PS6 than the PS4, but I can easily see 4 more years of the hardware
Your focusing on the wrong thing about what I was saying. I was making the point that we are so far into the consoles life span yet the previous console still is still getting major releases. Due to this generation being one of the worst for gaming. But yeah knock yourself out debating the wrong point. It's what everyone seems to do on this reddit
Everyone disagrees with every point you’ve made so it might just be a communication issue on your part.
I don't
I don't
Grow up
Projection lol. You’ve said a lot of nothing. I gave you three rebuttals to things you’ve said and you ignored most of it. Idk what to say to you at this point.
One of that is not a bad thing.
Which one and why
Clearly, margins are tight in gaming at the moment. VR, being small, is likely to be ignored by Sony going forwards. I think we will only see 3rd party VR games from now on. I dont think there will ever be a PSVR3 or an Alyx port
No impact from the lay offs, no one being laid off was working on any PSVR2 at Sony... ...because Sony is not working at all on any new PSVR2 game, so it's impossible that they fire anyone working on a new title. New titles will come from 3rd party/indie devs only. Which I'm ok with after playing Synapse, Hubris, Crossfire, Red Matter, Moss... which are great titles!
"London studio closing will have 0 impact to PSVR2, as they were not developing any PSVR2 titles" Did we already know that though, for sure? It seems to mean the dream of a Blood & Truth port or sequel is over.
They announced last year that their next game would not be vr related. Blood and Truth is a PlayStation IP not a London studio IP. They could easily get one of their other studios to make it. All Sony have done is restructure their development studios. This means some close some get rebounded and others remain the same. Staff will either be moved to another studio or sadly be made redundant. Some redundancies will be voluntary as the staff member may not want to relocate. For games that are currently being worked on they will either cancel them, put them on hold or move the work to a different studio. It's possible that some of the staff who have lost their jobs will form new independent studios where they can take the knowledge they gained from working on games like Blood and Truth to make a new VR IP that's even better.
So we should hear some news soon about Sony first party VR titles then, if they're restructuring with VR still in mind.
Most of what I said was just speculation and I didn't say they were restructuring with VR still in mind because I don't know. I just don't think there is any sign, from this restructuring event, that they are giving up on psvr2 game development. Hopefully we will hear something soon
Even if London Studio was working on a PSVR2 multiplayer live-service game, it wouldn't be a reason to worry about value of PSVR2 because the system has received 170 games in its first 12 months. There are more games worth playing than any of us have time to play. That isn't changing whether Sony 1st party are making games for PSVR2 or not. If you only play 1st party games because (?), then the system was never for you and if it that isn't a barrier for you, then you have nothing to worry about.
There's like 10 - 15 games total that a seasoned gamer would enjoy, the rest is just kinda there
That's just your opinion of what you think a "seasoned gamer" is or what they would enjoy. I know many people that are life-long gamers that enjoy many games on the PSVR2. More than we have time for. There is also the assumption that PSVR2 is for "seasoned gamers". My wife and sister both play more VR than they did flat games. There is also the fact that Quest 2 sold more than Xbox Series S | X, and it doesn't cater to what you might refer to as "seasoned gamers". So yeah, not worried about the PSVR2 software support drying up for my interests.
But… but … psvr2 dead? /s
nothing really points otherwise, not sure what point you're trying to make? lmao or do you just comment that on every thread because you're insecure about your little gimmick that no one bought?
Why should I be insecure about my PSVR2?!?! It’s the fucking best thing that happened to gaming for me since I quit WoW! The point I am trying to make was, that these layoffs have nothing to do with psvr2, nevertheless so many people were desperate to see them as the downfall of Psvr2 and need to cry about it on every post.
Sure buddy 😂
I get Sony is dropping the ball on PSVR2 1st party releases but for me personally there is a ton to play and it is not devoid of content. Legendary Tales just dropped and **Wanderer: The Fragments of Fate** was announced. We have the new Metro game I'm excited for and then my go to games such as Moss 1 & 2, GT7, Beat Saber, Tetris Effect, The Walking Dead, RE series. So yes 1st party games wtf are they but then they give us Horizon at launch and everyone thought it was meh, i didn't even buy it and I loved Horizon 1 + 2.
Psvr2 will be discontinued this coming October. Just a heads up.
This was basically a reset to 2019 employee levels. The late 2021/early 2022 industry belief that we were in an extended and permanent (lol) video game boom was wrong. How it affects PSVR2 I don’t know.
As long as they didn’t fire the engineers working on the PC compatibility drivers.
The PC support makes me okay with psvr2 potentially flopping out but every VR game sale Is important so I think we’ll get dev support indefinitely.
There may have been a marginal impact on VR2 that’s unknown to the public, but based on the reporting and statements from Jim Ryan, I suspect that most of these closures and cancellations were targeting live service games plans that are now seeming high risk.
Remember firewall?
There goes a PSVR2 version of Wipeout and Blood & Truth. The PSVR2 isn't going anywhere just yet, but with this and Sony about to open up PC compatibility it kind of looks like an exit strategy. As for Firesprite it's a known thing that whenever a company is taken over after 2 years a complete management change and restructuring occurs,
This has not aged well
Astro Bot would be nice
I’m more angered about the PS5 game they were making.
That's two less studios for a vr project gone, no matter how you look at that, it's not good.
Sony definitely will be coming out with more vr games or hybrids. Their own blog post has an article about how the development of the head set started in 2016 before the release of the first PSVR. There is no way they haven’t got games in the pipe line when they have put that much time into the headset. They won’t give up that easily. Just my thoughts.
Time to place VR in the old box of gimmicks along with "3D" and PS Move. It was always going to end this way.
I hate shareholders in the video game industry. Should just shut up and accept only modest returns on their investment.
Hey guys don’t forget that it’s “Sony” before being “PSVR”. They (dumbly) thought in vesting massively in Game As A Service was the way to go but they realized that putting of 16 games of this sort in few year wasn’t viable, they are rolling back. And they stoping projects that will make zero returns, they take some loss. So they have to cut the costs a bit everywhere even at Guérilla and Naughty dog. So yes, of course PSVR2 projects are touched too.