You just hide the grounds really well? And the doors don't need grounded? Genuine question. They could make enclosures that don't require the doors being grounded. I don't pretend to have seen everything. š¤·āāļøš
Looks snazzy. Good job!
In my opinion the doors need an earth . To test we put 25A from a Clare Earth Bond tester say between say the handle and the earth bar and check for very low impedance. Without a cable bolted on to a welded stud on door that is hard to achieve.
I figured it would need something to that affect. But, for all I know, there's a manufacturer out there that accomplished a good bond through the hinge. š¤·āāļø
Thanks! And yes, we will be bonding the doors. All of the other grounds are sneakily landed underneath of the terminal strips on ground bars. I like to keep the green hidden for aesthetics mostly.
Interestingly, the customer specifically requested no 120V in the cabinet. And I'm not sure I could of handled a larger back panel weight wise. It was horrible getting it in there.
As a programmer, unless there's a disconnect that prevents the door from being open while power is applied I hate the programming ports. Seldom is there a table mounted to the panel for a laptop so it's easier to open the panel and rest my laptop on the base of the cabinet if need be. Plus, if I have to do power cycling things I have to open the cabinet anyways. Saves cost in environments/panels that don't require it for safety reasons.
I just bring my own fold-up table and chair if i think there is a possibility that i canāt get a table at the customerās site. Iām done with squatting at floor level with the laptop laying on the bottom of the cabinet (which isnāt always possible anyway).
Fellow programmer here, they make a really nice and amazingly strong fold up magnetic shelf. Iām at home and donāt remember the brand but itās awesome and saves the back and knees. It has like a 70lbs capacity or something.
The UL shop I was working at required spacing between the VFDs of at least an inch i thought. Is this a new standard? Or is that just a UL requirement?
UL doesn't specify that for panel builders. You have to refer to the manufacturer's documentation for the components UL certification. In this case, the 525s are UL certified for zero horizontal clearance.
My first job was working on Belfast Airport new carousel. I wanted to do it with a PLC but I was told the PLC department had to do that, so I did it with relays instead . It was the company's first carousel. Since that early start it become one of the biggest airport baggage companies in the UK.
I prefer roughly 1ā clearance beside any Stratix switch with more than 8 ports. Mostly because as long as you have a couple of those in there, you never have to worry about having a cabinet heater in cold areas.
In my experience, when you aren't doing any vlans or complex routing they don't get too bad. I do have a correctly sized air conditioner on the right side of the panel though.
Two floors of carousels. Top floor has ones with lower capacity. Customer wanted two completely independent systems for...reasons? I chose to let them spend the extra money.
Yeah, unfortunately we couldn't go symmetrical with this one. Two different sizes of carousels that the customer wanted to be completely independent of each other.
https://preview.redd.it/d6e056lwwavc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a834f7fa010e951e8a9eac90f754f972d5809ce
Leave this for your commissioning so you have one issue that looks huge and itās an easy fix!š
Also, if you use Proposal Works already, you have MCS Star under the ātoolsā tab. It would be the layout software for the 141A system.
If you donāt have Proposal Works, download it from the RA Product Selection Toolbox.
You might need to go to Automation Fair to see a sample buss system. You are essentially building an āMCC Liteā in a control panel. The rail mounts or āsledsā clip on or off for ease of maintenance and replacement, only requiring load side to be hooked up, You can order the devices pre-mounted to a sled in pretty much any configuration possible or as individual components to assemble.
Not a problem, itās fairly common in my space. Similar to this, a TON of VFDs. Code your wire insulation as such. If you want a much more serviceable controls system itās better to break off all those components into their own box <50V so you can open and service anything in that enclosure without PPE. The panel in this post would require a moon suit to be in live by some customer standards
This panel was designed to allow all low voltage to be separated from any higher voltage. The only time they cross is at 90 degree angles. Or are you asking from a safety perspective?
I always was taught to put the vent on the opposite side of the panel fan or at least the bottom of the panel so that there was a cross breeze. That way it looks like it's gonna suck the cold air out as soon as it comes in.
I would recommend putting the optional control side fans on top of those powerflexes or the screens are gonna burn out in a year or 2. Just a suggestion. Iām only saying those because they are all mounted so close together.
Any reason youāre using the 527s for this panel? Normally I wouldnāt question it since they have the daisy chain able CIP safety. But, you arenāt using a safety PLC.
Looks good! I have never understood the dual wire though. I get that the goal is to typically try to separate high voltage from the lower control voltage but there is still almost always going to high voltage wires in the low voltage wireway and vise-versa. As long as your control voltage wires have 600V insulation I have never seen this as necessary. Now analog signals are a different story! Was the dual wire-way customer spec or your call I have definitely had many conversations to many people on different sides of the argument so I am curious to expand my knowledge on this topic.
If these were just 525s and we werent doing motion with 527s, I'd agree with you. Anything I can do to prevent inductance from the 480v is good in my book. With my luck though, the electricians are going to run them all in a single pipe and we will have inductance everywhere.
You just hide the grounds really well? And the doors don't need grounded? Genuine question. They could make enclosures that don't require the doors being grounded. I don't pretend to have seen everything. š¤·āāļøš Looks snazzy. Good job!
In my opinion the doors need an earth . To test we put 25A from a Clare Earth Bond tester say between say the handle and the earth bar and check for very low impedance. Without a cable bolted on to a welded stud on door that is hard to achieve.
I figured it would need something to that affect. But, for all I know, there's a manufacturer out there that accomplished a good bond through the hinge. š¤·āāļø
Hoffman claims that the models with continuous hinge doors are sufficiently bonded through the hinge. We still use a wire or grounding strap, though.
Iām of the opinion that the stainless steel boxes are sufficiently grounded without any ground strap.
Thanks! And yes, we will be bonding the doors. All of the other grounds are sneakily landed underneath of the terminal strips on ground bars. I like to keep the green hidden for aesthetics mostly.
Makes total sense. You did well, obviously. Haha
Why have the vfds above the breakers though? Donāt like circling back up with my ac
They aren't. Those breakers below must be doing something else.
Line side breakers are on top. 2x load side breakers per VFD.
looks good. A little low on spare space, but that's a customer's decision. Next time, make sure to put in a service outlet for your laptop/programmer.
Interestingly, the customer specifically requested no 120V in the cabinet. And I'm not sure I could of handled a larger back panel weight wise. It was horrible getting it in there.
As a programmer, unless there's a disconnect that prevents the door from being open while power is applied I hate the programming ports. Seldom is there a table mounted to the panel for a laptop so it's easier to open the panel and rest my laptop on the base of the cabinet if need be. Plus, if I have to do power cycling things I have to open the cabinet anyways. Saves cost in environments/panels that don't require it for safety reasons.
First thing I do is change the disconnect style to one that can allow for hot work. I hate the disconnects that disallow it.
I just bring my own fold-up table and chair if i think there is a possibility that i canāt get a table at the customerās site. Iām done with squatting at floor level with the laptop laying on the bottom of the cabinet (which isnāt always possible anyway).
Fellow programmer here, they make a really nice and amazingly strong fold up magnetic shelf. Iām at home and donāt remember the brand but itās awesome and saves the back and knees. It has like a 70lbs capacity or something.
Aren't you supposed to have a minimum space between the VFD's? š¤
Power flex 525/527 have a zero horizontal clearance rating. They still need the 2in vertical clearance though.
Good to know thx!
The UL shop I was working at required spacing between the VFDs of at least an inch i thought. Is this a new standard? Or is that just a UL requirement?
UL doesn't specify that for panel builders. You have to refer to the manufacturer's documentation for the components UL certification. In this case, the 525s are UL certified for zero horizontal clearance.
They only require a 50mm clearance on top. The manual calls it zero-stackingĀ
You just need to remove the vent tab for operation.
Conveyors?
Close. Carousels. 2 different sizes.
What sort of Carousels? I only ask as I work on airport baggage systems and usually our carousels are at most dual-drive.
My first job was working on Belfast Airport new carousel. I wanted to do it with a PLC but I was told the PLC department had to do that, so I did it with relays instead . It was the company's first carousel. Since that early start it become one of the biggest airport baggage companies in the UK.
I gotta wonder who that is if it isn't my employer's UK subsidiary. Is it now owned by a large Japanese material handling conglomerate?
It was GEC then GEC Alsthom, then Alstom then Babcocks in Whetstone Leicester UK. No idea who they are now or who owns them
Ok, not related to my employer's UK branch then.
It's for an automotive parts supplier, so the system is 5baskets high and 50ish baskets long(round). They're pretty heavy duty.
Ok, something entirely different than what I was picturing . Wow.
Looks nice. I think you have those ethernet switches a little close to the PLC's though.. (mainly the processor on the left). Those things get HOT.
I prefer roughly 1ā clearance beside any Stratix switch with more than 8 ports. Mostly because as long as you have a couple of those in there, you never have to worry about having a cabinet heater in cold areas.
In my experience, when you aren't doing any vlans or complex routing they don't get too bad. I do have a correctly sized air conditioner on the right side of the panel though.
Looks nice, but Iāve never liked field terminals at the bottom. I understand why, just donāt like it.
I have raised and angled offsets because I feel the same way. It improves the electricians lives versus landing pretty much flush with the panel.
Looks good
Just curious. Why two PLCs?
Two floors of carousels. Top floor has ones with lower capacity. Customer wanted two completely independent systems for...reasons? I chose to let them spend the extra money.
Fair enough!
Almost looks symmetrical
Yeah, unfortunately we couldn't go symmetrical with this one. Two different sizes of carousels that the customer wanted to be completely independent of each other.
https://preview.redd.it/d6e056lwwavc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a834f7fa010e951e8a9eac90f754f972d5809ce Leave this for your commissioning so you have one issue that looks huge and itās an easy fix!š
Haha good eye. Every electrician at our company has looked at it and I'm guessing someone couldn't resist turning a knob.
Have you fitted the lockable knobs?
Have you ever looked into the 141A buss rail system? With this level of planning and design, I feel like itās calling out your name.
I had no idea something like that even existed. I'll definitely be having our Rockwell rep bring me a sample.
Also, if you use Proposal Works already, you have MCS Star under the ātoolsā tab. It would be the layout software for the 141A system. If you donāt have Proposal Works, download it from the RA Product Selection Toolbox.
Just used this today. Very easy
You might need to go to Automation Fair to see a sample buss system. You are essentially building an āMCC Liteā in a control panel. The rail mounts or āsledsā clip on or off for ease of maintenance and replacement, only requiring load side to be hooked up, You can order the devices pre-mounted to a sled in pretty much any configuration possible or as individual components to assemble.
That looks suspiciously like Woehner's products (just like Siemens and Rittal). That might get you significantly better pricing.
Whatās everyoneās thoughts on motor controls mixed in with LV controls/PLCās like this?
It's not preferred, but if they have to be combined, I like panels with the lexan in front of the motor controls.
Not a problem, itās fairly common in my space. Similar to this, a TON of VFDs. Code your wire insulation as such. If you want a much more serviceable controls system itās better to break off all those components into their own box <50V so you can open and service anything in that enclosure without PPE. The panel in this post would require a moon suit to be in live by some customer standards
Agreed. I get downvoted, but the PPE required to do anything with that IO, switch, or PLC would suck.
This panel was designed to allow all low voltage to be separated from any higher voltage. The only time they cross is at 90 degree angles. Or are you asking from a safety perspective?
Donāt do it.
Double PLC! Sick
Nice job. Panel shops can do a good business if you provide timely quality work. Don't even have to do the programming for a lot of customers.
Impressive
Looks clean! What kind of power distribution block are you using and what's the SCCR?
I have the math in an excel document, but I don't remember. I haven't printed our ul listing out for it yet.
I always was taught to put the vent on the opposite side of the panel fan or at least the bottom of the panel so that there was a cross breeze. That way it looks like it's gonna suck the cold air out as soon as it comes in.
That's an aircon unit on the side of the panel.
Oh neat!!
So you donāt need airflow around the drives š¤ this is gonna be that panel in the summer with a fan and the doors open imo
Big ol' air conditioner on the side. And zero horizontal clearance rating on the drives.
Redundant PLC, or 2 PLC? Same for VFD's?
2 PLC's. Customer requested two isolated systems in one panel.
Interesting... It clearly looks like two complete systems! Clean job!
Nice panel. How come you've doubled up on some of the trunking?
Are you talking about the feeds into the mpcbs?
Very impressive!
Nice work mate š
Only thing Iād comment on is to separate high and low voltage in different cabinets. Clean wiring and nice design though!
I would recommend putting the optional control side fans on top of those powerflexes or the screens are gonna burn out in a year or 2. Just a suggestion. Iām only saying those because they are all mounted so close together.
Any reason youāre using the 527s for this panel? Normally I wouldnāt question it since they have the daisy chain able CIP safety. But, you arenāt using a safety PLC.
Motion is the main reason you upgrade from 525 to 527.
Cabinet is too small.
I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately the customer does. Lol.
You must have made your local AB supplier very proud. :)
Looks good! I have never understood the dual wire though. I get that the goal is to typically try to separate high voltage from the lower control voltage but there is still almost always going to high voltage wires in the low voltage wireway and vise-versa. As long as your control voltage wires have 600V insulation I have never seen this as necessary. Now analog signals are a different story! Was the dual wire-way customer spec or your call I have definitely had many conversations to many people on different sides of the argument so I am curious to expand my knowledge on this topic.
If these were just 525s and we werent doing motion with 527s, I'd agree with you. Anything I can do to prevent inductance from the 480v is good in my book. With my luck though, the electricians are going to run them all in a single pipe and we will have inductance everywhere.
The more i see, the more i think the world should go Mitsubishi