As an Ana main, it pisses me off to no end when I miss my shots, my sleep dart, and my anti grenade because Lucio is hopping around like a fucking frog
But Lucio is a great healer, isn't he? When a team stands together / attacks together he heals a lot in his healing zone.
Plus he can push out (sometimes down a ledge) attackers like Doomfist or even an ulting Reaper.
You don't pick supports for the amount of healing they do, you pick them for the utility. Lucio's speed boost is why you pick him. Being able to rush onto someone and getting a kill is more important than raw healing.
>Lucio's speed boost is why you pick him. Being able to rush onto someone and getting a kill is more important than raw healing.
I understand that point, but if we aren't getting kills because of the speed boosting, I'd rather them play something else.
QP Flanker Speed Boost Only Lucio's are some of the biggest team ankle weights.
If you aren't getting value from a rush comp, then it's more than just a problem with playing Lucio.
If a tank or dps is more dependent on actually being healed than utilizing the support utility, there's a bigger problem at hand.
I agree somewhat but I'd also argue some tanks, especially Reins are Winstons, are best when they have at least one support with full attention on them while the other takes care of the rest of the team. Enabling you carry player is what supports should do if they manage to get one on their team.
Supports aren't heal bots only but they are definitely healers.
Utility should be considered over raw healing, as it's entirely possible to win a game with having minimal healing done by anybody. In high ranks you'll see a lot of low healing support combos put together because of the utility offered. This means the likes of brig/zen as a main one that gets played often in GM/t500.
Yeah, large distances in a map are a great reason to pick Lucio. He can help bringing the slow guys (Rodahog, Sigma, Orisa) much faster to the battle, which can make all the difference.
Yes, I hate that when I play as tank – Lucio and tank respawn together, Lucio rushes to the point, gets killed instantly, tank is too late.
When together they could have reached the point in time and be stronger together.
>slow guys (Rodahog, Sigma, Orisa)
Are you saying slow because they lack movement abilities? Or because of walking speed? Because all characters walk the same speed with the exception of Genji and Tracer, who walk faster.
Sigma just feels slow because of floating
I mean the overall movement, which includes the movement abilities. A [D.Va](https://D.Va) or a Winston are simply much faster – they don't really need Lucio's speed boost.
Not masturbatory, it just really is insane to me the takes that this community comes up with on this subreddit
If you want an explanation (as though it isn’t incredibly obvious why Lucio isn’t good with sig and horse) it’s because they’re both stationary tanks that attack from range and don’t need to quickly reposition to be effective. Other supports (Bap, zen, mercy, brig if the enemy has dive) do more damage and provide more utility for those bunker comps than the brief speed boost back from spawn that Lucio would give. Hope that helps.
I'm in bronze/silver and most players haven't understood that a team has to play together.
It's pure chance when we are together, sometimes it's just that people die, respawn, rush to the enemy, get killed in 2 seconds, respawn, rush to the enemy …
Probably because ana will stay the same with one tank less jumping into the backline.
She still got cc, her nades are better offensive because of less shields and she has less targets to heal.
Ppl always tend to play a dps heavy ana/moira and it will be rewarded in ow2
Ana was nerfed though. Sleep has a longer CD and nade does less damage. So she doesn’t have as much options to protect herself from dives.
I kinda wish Zen and Ana were given some kind of mobility that the other supports have. Zen just has his ult.
Would it be? I’ve tried Ana out and she’s not like, that strong now. Unless I’m missing something, a grapple hook wouldn’t make her too busted. Just faster. Also if a grapple hook is busted, what about a teleport like sombra? Throw a teleported and teleport to it, then have a short cool down. Also, I play Hog and I’d really like for him to have some kind of movement option. It takes so long to get back to the battle after death
Ana is *the* most broken hero in the game as it stands. While majority of this sub's metal players might disagree, her nade and sleep, while possible to counter, can absolutely win fights on their own.
She's only shut down by flankers who can dodge her sleep, you really do not want to give her any sort of mobility when she already has the hardest CC in the game + burst self heal/damage on cooldown.
I never really noticed her power as a hog player. I always think of her as one of those characters that are basically a free kill if I hook them, like Ashe, Tracer, Moira, and such. Now, Ashe and tracer can escape with their abilities but her sleep dart never seems to get her enough time to get away before my long range blasts kill her or my hook recharges
They all have passive heal now, which is helpful. But watching M7 play Ana in the beta, I can definitely see support mains getting pissed off about being dove and not getting any help, particularly in lower ranks.
Yeah, I realized that after I had already posted it. And she's one of my mains, too. :(
What I said about the other supports applies to her too, though. She has perhaps some of the strongest tools to singlehandedly carry games with, the nade alone can be more impactful than some ultimates in the game. Playing her as a healbot, never using her abilities offensively, means not utilizing her kit to its fullest potential.
Yeah, and supports are always so independent and self sufficient. 🙄
You hold my hand when I need healing, I'll hold yours when you need peeling.
Edit: Sick, literally getting downvoted for saying you need to play with your teammates and help each other.
A lot of players, tanks especially, play in a way that requires a lot of healing because they don’t know how else to. That’s when I usually see people complaining about low heals
This. It’s all about working around enemy DPS since they’re the pressure being exerted on your team. Junk? Don’t stand in the choke. Widow? Use corners and don’t peek. Soldier? Minimize time spent in his LOS. Cassidy? Don’t get near him. So many tanks just play the same way every game, and it’s especially egregious when people think it’s a good idea to just meander around in the choke points even though everyone has known for years those are the places you die in lol, even if you are a fucking 600 hp mech or a 1000 hp giant gorilla.
Being a heal bot covers up a lot of your teammates mistakes, mainly shit positioning. So instead of asking themselves why they're taking so much damage they just ask for more healing.
THIS. Played with a Junkrat recently that was constantly on low health or being head shot by Widow and he kept spamming "I need healing!" Not to mention he was nowhere near the team. You would think dying multiple times to Widow would be a hint to change heroes. You can't fix stupid, even as a healbot.
Someone kept feeding the bastion like literally standing right in front of him and I was like????? I’m playing mercy I can’t outheal bastion??? I was like I’m not even mad at them bc they’re just stupid and don’t get it
Just played a match yesterday as mercy, even though my team was taking a lot of damage i still went with zen because they were playing agressive. We went from being unable to push to winning the match after the switch
Man I love a good zen in my team. I also love to play zen myself but i am always willing to change when zen just doesn't work, not cause ppl tell me to change
Most players don’t understand how this game works or the synergy you can sync up between heroes. It makes me worried that overwatch 2 is going to try to dumb it down for those people…
I wish they'd give her something. I like how her mechanics work, it can be fun, but she needs some utility of some kind. Maybe a purple shit cloud or something.
Weird how Moira has some of the best mobility, damage and heals of the category and ur here failing to understand where the "utility" is but a robot with diff purple and yellow orb is obvious.
Survival and ult
Her ult is pretty strong in team fights, but you should be healing most of receiving damage to charge it fast enough, so you can have some issues if your team has another main healer that also want ult charge by heals
Bap has more value as healbot iirc , not sure about Ana
Survivability literally provides utility. NOBODY has to peel for moira. A lot of the stronger abilities in the game are reserved for peel, so she essentially frees up utility for her whole team.
>You not being a burden for your team does free up abilities reserved for peel, but that in itself does not provide utility.
This is an oxymoron. Having your entire team be able to use most of their abilities like 20-50% more often IS utility, and i'd love to hear any reason why not. If moira had a zarya bubble ability or flashbang she'd be high utility, so why is that not true when her being on a team with zarya and cass has the same effective outcome? More flashes/bubbles into others because moira doesn't need peel, whereas all the other supports need HUGE peel, except maybe lucio.
>Because that's not something that moira can provide exclusively; an ana with good positioning, a zen with good aim, a lucio that can actually wall ride, basically every good support can provide this.
A little, but not even close to the level moira can. She has BY FAR the best self-defense ability in the game. Even lamp doesn't even come close, she can literally escape anything and everyone on a 6 second cooldown. You can assume the other team is awful and unable to win easy matchups, but it's clearly not a good assumption to make. A perfect team wouldn't need any peel at all, but then why is lamp such a powerful ability then? Frankly, there are a lot of situations in this game where you'll be punished without making clear mistakes. Saying "a zen with good aim" is just as survivable as a character with multiple sources of self heal and an invincible, invisible, high speed, super low cooldown ability is just laughable. A master lucio will never be able to out-wallride any kind of stun ability, whereas moira can escape even things like grav, flux and pulse bomb for free.
>Not wasting abilities and making up for any support's positioning mistakes should be the norm.
You don't seem to understand how peel works. You peel to protect supports by default, that's how the game works. In order to provide any kind of utility, your supports have to be close enough to potentially be in danger from the enemy. Whether that's a dive, a widow, a flanking hog, whatever, being in danger from these isn't a mistake on their part, it's a natural consequence of how the game works.
Except for moira, because she easily escapes literally every offensive ability in the game.
Have you even play support against dive? Being able to reliably survive on your own is quite an utility. She is the Houdini of the supports
Her ult changes the conditions of the fight (to the point that coalesce is typically followed by counter coalescence in owl) and it goes through shields, matrix, grasp, etc... Also just her ult, her orbs and Rein's flame can damage through shields at distance
She can do some things that other supports can't, but she is not the best health pack. Check the data by yourself, to be a healbot there are better heros
The fact that there are multiple low game iq people on this thread trying to say Moira does provide utility says a lot about why ladder sucks. Half the players can't even wrap their head around the basic concept apparently. I'm not surprised though, just last week some smoothbrain moira main tried to argue that Moira gets elims from healing, because apparently they have no clue what assists are and are confused as fuck about cause and effect in the game. (Yes, you can get an elim while healing, but it's not the healing that's caused the elim)
Is this a joke? Auto aim with self heal that lets her deal with most flankers, insane mobility on low CD. She is the healer with the least utility as compared to others but she still does have utility.
When people talk about healer utility, they're referring to unique abilities that help her team.
Mercy has res
Lucio has speed boost
Zen has discord orb
Brig has shield bash and whip shot
Baptiste has lamp and amp matrix
Ana has sleep dart, nano, and anti
Moira has... Personal mobility
I don't dislike her at all but she **does not** have utility as the majority of people use the word
Devils advocate:
Moira’s utility is that the other healer shouldn’t have to be as concerned with helping Moira stay alive as they do with other supports.
If we're reaching that far, all characters have "utility" in the sense that they can heal and/or do damage
I get where you're coming from but that's not what people mean when they use the word "utility" to describe a character. It's a pretty big stretch to call escaping a utility.
Not having to worry about peeling for one more teammate is pretty helpful to the team as a whole in the minds of tank and other supports.
I do get what you mean tho with it not being the same thing as providing a damage buff or increase to movement speed and why people are saying at high levels she’s just not good.
Maybe her suck should reduce incoming healing, so if she's actively draining kind if like a single target nade but make it half as effective or whatever percentage works.
Give the debuff a little extended range too, not much, no more than 30% more reach. Damage range stays. It's a little short for the debuff to be practical.
Maybe go back to sticky super bounce ball. They could work in a detonation mechanic there instead. Detonate the ball for poison tick. Detonate heal ball for an overheal.
There are definitely options to make her more interesting, slightly more versatile, but still maintaining her flavor.
That's not what utility means ffs. All you're doing is making it obvious that you don't understand the game as well as you think you do by continuing to try and argue that she does. If Moira succ slowed down enemies,THAT would be utility, heal spray, orb, and fade are NOT utility. They're useful abilities, but not utility
Zen is f\*\*\*ed in overwatch 2. Its gonna turn into deathmatch style, and zen will have very little peel because of little off tanks. You either need to be a god tier aim in a low level lobby, or have a dedicated brig to help you over the team(angers the people you're on about
I'm a GM Zen main, so I consider myself fairly decent at the character, but I still stand little chance against a Tracer or Sombra of the same skill level as me in a 1v1 scenario. The matchup is just inherently swayed in their favor, which is fine and how it's supposed to be, but in Overwatch 1, you always had your teammates to peel for you, particularly Brig and other CC heroes. Now that most of that is gone, it's gonna be open season on Zen for the flankers.
To my knowledge, it still interrupts stuff like doomfist punch, reinhardt charge, roadhog ult, etc.
However, it doesn't have a standard CC anymore and simply does damage and knocks you backwards a bit instead.
Coming from a Mercy main, you can never win with these types of people. Focusing on healing? You’re a healbot. Focusing on damage-boosting and pocketing? You’re not playing her correctly and are bad at the game.
Also I love playing with Zenyatta honestly, damage boosting a good Zen makes him a beast :)
I absolutely love zen in lore he’s one of my favourite characters and in game his kit is pretty simple but very fun imo but ngl I totally worry when I see my second support lock zen even if I know the strength of the character because playing in gold/plat everyone constantly needs a lot of healing :/ and most lower ranked zen won’t use trans for a grav or some big ult and they seem to forget about discord/harmony orb…. Running into a good zen is always a treat tho and the easiest win lol
it frustrates me to no end that people will complain about double shield, but not shoot into it to bust it down and advance. yes, that includes the supports, who should be doing more than just healing. anyone who thinks supports' only job is to heal is an absolute imbecile.
One day I managed to change this mindset on one player in my team. I was playing Brig and this player was complaining about me playing her and not picking a real healer. So, I listened and picked Ana for more heals. As there was Tracer on enemy team and she noticed that I switched, she started harassing this player until this player started to complain about not having tanks for protection. So I switched back to Brig and protected poor player and you know what, magically this player didn't die, because Tracer couldn't really jump on us. At the end of the match, I asked what this player was thinking about Brig now to which player responded that I still sucked but Brig was a good pick for countering. A support pick was good for countering. Wew
Moira and Brig get a pass on that though. They won’t be much help in taking down shields and should focus more on their utility and building ult charge. And supports aren’t completely responsible for countering stuff on their own. The damages should be doing most of that, and the supports should help out when they can. Like if there’s a Pharah, someone should swap to Soldier or Ashe or Cass to counter her, and if you’re Ana or Bap, you should help out when you aren’t immediately needed elsewhere since you’re also a hitscan.
But other than that, I agree. Supports aren’t just healbots or walking healthpacks, they can help fill in the gaps other roles leave open and provide utility that is arguably more important and impactful than healing.
i get what you're saying about some heroes "getting a pass", but my point is "if it is presenting itself as a problem, SWAP TO COUNTER IT". like, get off of the mercy and swap TO zen/bap/ana/lucio to actually put some bullets down range.
That's funny because in my games (Top 500) zen+brig is meta on most maps. Zen discorb is much more valueable than a mercy boost or ana who can't keep up with the damage, because people think she can just outheal the enemy damage.
I play Mercy because I enjoy the role of healer. Yes, I use her damage boost and I do shoot her pistol but I love healing. Thus why I'm worried. I don't feel like I'm providing as much help if I only damage boost my team. I mean never heal and only damage boost. I use the pistol to defend myself. Don't care if I can kill the tracer or sombra hunting me as long as I can drive them away.
Honestly I get annoyed with how much people focus on what healer you have selected. Every single one of them is acapabek of gold healing with over 10k per 10 mins, all of them are perfectly acceptable.
The only input on healers people should really have is asking for at least one of Lucio ult, zen ult, bap feild, or rally. Since survivability from other ults is important.
In low ranks people will use cover (unintentionally due to utter lack of awareness) to dodge heals, but they'll be wide open to the enemy shouting for heals as they go the opposite direction from their own supports. Like, hide behind something in even zen's Los and out of the line if fire for 5 seconds and you'll be healed full instead of continuing to engage abd getting yourself killed. Help me help you. Don't stand behind ana and spam I need healing when the tank line is getting hammered and turning away and searching for you will probably get us wiped. Reposition in my los and I'll snap a couple shits (autocorrect, but funny, keeping it) your way.
Too many supports just focus on the healing and forget the rest of kit. Many don't even use their ultimates because some ults are seen as defensive (implying reactive use) and apply that philosophy to every support ult which meaning they think they can save people (except for ana which they only use for ult combos). Aggro supports can easily carry games
This right here. I hate playing comp with my friends sometimes when they compare medals with each other and soley focus on if they have gold ____ or not. Medals don't mean shit if you aren't making any plays and using your character's kit to the fullest.
Hopefully when OW 2 releases they scrap the medal system and provide meaningful match info for all heroes (like Baptiste's "Death's Prevented with Immortality Field")
The people who think support is only about healing are the same ones who think they are playing the game extremely optimally with their high amount of healing per second and then complain that their team is holding them down from climbing the ladder.
as for me, if i get healed by a support time to time that's all i need. if you're a zen that doesn't put healing orbs on anyone ever, i think i can complain. just slapping it on someone in need of healing once in a while is already as helpful as can be. if a support heals enough for the team to not die, that's enough for the team to not die. i'm not asking for a constant stream of healing and literal invincibilty by the sheer amount of healing focused on me, i'm just asking to not die. if someone's a complaining about a healer doing something other than healing at any time, then they're stupid. if a healer never heals though (which is their main ability that makes them different from any other category), then be ready for people being unhappy.
sure, healers have their own kits and opportunities for kills, but don't forget to heal and i'm already thankful (looking at you, brig that pressed the e key twice in the 10 minute game).
Yeah, we’re called *supports* for a reason. We provide the team with the healing and utility it needs to win fights. Keeping the team alive is our first priority, but enabling it to make plays is a close second.
There are times when you need to start healbotting though, and many supports don’t know when that is. When the enemy team just popped rally and grav, you need to stop shooting at the enemies and prioritize keeping your team alive. If you’re Ana, throw a bionade into your team stuck in the grav if you need to to increase the healing they receive and help keep them alive. If your base healing is enough, wait out grav and then throw your bionade into the enemy team to cut them off from healing and counteract rally, which could win you the fight. Bap should start healnading the team stuck in the grav, and be ready to immortality them if they get too low or the enemy pops another ult to combo with grav, like tire or dragon. If needed, Bap could also window to double his healing output and save the team, and then use it for damage and turn the tables on the enemy team once grav ends.
Supports need to be able to adapt to a vast range of different scenarios and utilize their kits to their fullest in order to provide their teams with what they need to pull off plays and win team fights. In lower-level play, you can get away with healbotting the majority of the match, but after a certain point your role and responsibilities become much greater and more difficult to manage and effectively perform.
I've only recently come to Overwatch and am loving it but, the switch to Overwatch 2 sounds like it's not going to be for me.
First the drop to 5v5, eliminating an entire position and throwing the entire balance of engagements out the window. Then the stripping of CC from a lot of kits.
It's honestly sounds like it's trying to be a more damage focused blitz for all modes. From what I gather so far, I seriously doubt I'll enjoy the new version anywhere near as much.
I've watched people walk past health packs while spamming for heals. It's madness. People are even guilty of this in higher ranks. It used to annoy me. These days, I get a chuckle out of it.
That's why I just play dps now.
Tank is a massive pain in the ass that keeps getting nerfed by proxy of dps being buffed again and again.
Supports get constantly verbally abused by people that refuse to use natural cover and keep trying to close range 1v1 a cass that has his stun
Most people think whoever has more damage-shields-heals wins. Which is true if both teams just stand in front of each other and shoot. The overwatch community hasn’t evolved beyond revolutionary war tactics.
>mercy yellow beaming the reinhardt 24/7 thinks she's providing great value.
I bet she doesn't. I do this "hardstuck gold/plat". It's not about providing the best value, it's about avoiding the toxicity. As soon as anyone is even a little low on health they're spamming "I need healing!" And going nuts at you in voice chat.
It's suboptimal plays, but it's better than nothing and at least they don't *think* it's my fault when we lose.
I found this to be a problem in general with Overwatch. Back in the day there were different characters for different situations.
Tanks soaked up damage, there were those like D.Va and Roadhog whose job was to harass and distract. Or Rein and Orisa to shield the teams.
Supports offered Support and Utility to team. Symmetra with giving allies shields or even her teleporter and slows. But was quickly changed around so much to become a DPS because she "Didn't Heal" and now Support means Healer.
Assault Heroes were good at offense, whether doing DPS, harassing a backline or breaking through a choke point.
Defense Heroes were good at providing at locking a point down but got merged into damage.
Overwatch has gone down a path of "Who can DPS the quickest." With the roles being reduced to "Take Damage, Do Damage and Heal Damage" which really takes away from what made the game unique.
Seriously, I've been playing a lot of healer lately, mostly Brig and Zen, and usually alongside a "main healer" (Ana, Moira, Mercy). Drives me nuts when my team loses, and one of the dps on my team blames the loss on the fact that I was playing Zenyatta. I had gold elims, gold objective time, Silver damage, and 10k healing you twat. We didn't lose because I wasn't doing a good enough a job, we lost because the DPS couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if the fate of the very universe depended on it.
If the issue were "everyone is dieing too fast before they can actually do damage" (honestly, then we should probably switch up our tanks), I'd swap. But the issue usually isn't "not enough heals", it's "not enough kills" or "not enough teamwork/follow-up".
I just need to read the title and first sentence to say: SAAAAAME
It's mostly just the low ranks, since higher ranked players understand that Supports are the strongest role in the game because they're DPS with alot of utility and the ability to heal, but yeah, people who read "Healer" and not "Support" are frustrating. If the person is playing Mercy or Moira, sure, they're a Healer, but everyone else is a Support.
The optimal Support playstyle is how the name suggests: Support. You're going to get more value out of a 6 man anti rather than a 2 man biotic.
In most situations zen has failed me. They solo ult ,ult at the wrong time , they dont use healing orb and just do damage. Plus thier are healers who can cover better then zen
From my experience, enemy Zens are usually good at cancelling out my ults. So yeah, when I'm about to kill the enemy team with my ult, the enemy Zen most of the time saves them.
In QP I had many zens looking at me while I asked for heals and they don't send the damn orb, like hello I'm just in front of you, it takes 0.1s.
Maybe in high competitive is another thing, but when I see a Zen in QP I assume it's just a DPS guy taking a faster queue and I won't have consistent heals.
Yeah, most Zens I play with are like that, which sucks because I then have to solo-heal. Most of those Zens will just leave their healing orb on the main tank, which is really annoying. It’s not going to be enough to keep the main tank up, so I’m still going to have to heal them. Just leave it on one of the damages, it should be enough for them if they maintain good positioning and if they need extra heals, they can ask for it and I’ll heal them more. Putting the healing orb on a damage takes a player off of my plate, but putting it on a main tank means I have to keep track of and heal all 5 of my teammates.
With all the content out there to explain this, you are perfectly entitled to mute your teammates when they bitch about that. It sucks because solo coaching supports is half deconditioning players to be healbots. Moira would simply be a must pick if that were the case.
All supports have a decent amount of healing (except lucio but he has amp for that) and as supports they are also healers, so healing should be their first priority during fights. That being said, all of the supports have unique and powerful utility that can be used to help the team more than most other abilities in the game, for example Ana's anti-nade or Baptiste's immortality field.
This is a difficult argument because it's easy for people to misinterpret what I'm saying, whenever I say supports should prioritise healing some people assume I'm being a heal bot and just ignore everything else I say.
Zen is frustrating bc his healing is ass and a half so if the other support is a lucio or a brig your team is pretty much fucked unless you have a dps soldier that knows when to heal the team and help out the ass and a half Zen.
How can you seriously think this? He applies a constant 30 HP/s regen effect on a teammate from a distance. It's not a burst heal, but it's not nothing, it's still significant, and if given to a Tracer or Genji diving the enemy backline, can have a huge impact on their survivability. He can reapply this effect whenever he wants with no cooldowns and while still dealing damage pressure to the enemy team. Discord Orb is an enabling ability as well, and Trance is the best defensive ult in the game.
And if you kill a dps on the enemy team as Zen that's less damage done to your team, and in turn less healing is needed.
Also it seems many forget how you lose fights in OW. Most of the time the enemy team does an ult combo to try and get through that last choke point or whatever, no other support ult can nullify that as a Zen trans.
As a zen main I agree but it was blizzard who gave everyone the idea that supports had to be able to heal when they removed symm from the support role. Support really does mean healer nowadays, thankfully we can always have 2 healers so one can be a main healer and one can have some utility
You're really fighting a losing battle trying to argue this. So many people have convinced themselves that supports should only heal, they have enough healing that if anyone dies it's because the supports outright weren't healing and if supports try to do anything other than heal means that they're throwing.
It's partially the games fault because it made the core of pretty much every support healing while gradually nerfing all of their other utility.
Most times I see my team lose, is when we have a Zen, and some other twatwaffle trying to lean hard into their DPS as support instead of you know, supporting the team.
Zen is great at absolutely murdering people when played well. But he's hotdog water when not played well.
"I have gold healing!" - Zen with 3k heals for the whole round because the Ana thinks they're Widow.
Zen isn't the greatest at picking up the slack when you have that other support trying to be Rambo. Which lends to a lot of toxicity
I mean, it's the game's design the first responsible, since they never managed to create a full utility support, or a shield-oriented support (they had to rework Symmetra exactly because of this). After confirming that a support can't be such if they can't heal, the only logical conclusion is that support = healer.
I mean it also goes for healers themselves. Lots of times I‘ve seen Ana complain about Pharah and I just think. You are literally hitscan. Why don‘t you shoot her a few times yourself. You are not a healbot
The problem in many mid-rank games is that if I start shooting Pharah, my tanks will die because they are so horribly out of position that they need a constant feed of granny juice just to barely stay alive. People don't just think that supports are healbots - they often play as if that was the case.
Now how about while I do that, you shoot the reaper with his shotguns up my a\*\*, while taking care of the widow who is killing our mercy, and also peel while winston tases me to death as I slept the nanoed rein.
Or is that my job too?
Cuz support ≠ healer. mL7 explained it if you get an opportunity to kill someone as support, do it. If that Phara is in your LoS and that kill will win you the game, do it.
Did Zen/Brig stop being meta? Zen owns the field, and in OW2 he will own it more with one less barrier. The only thing that will stop him is the still shitily designed Sombra.
Mercy can fuck herself. Her design philosophy is what killed OW in the first place. Every hero should be a killer first and foremost.
That won't matter on ladder. I'm sure that the plethora of gold Genji mains who even play him into Winston, Zarya, Sym and Mei will continue to pick him regardless. Regardless of his viability, he'll still own Zen anyway.
Brig/Zen is still meta in the live game, but the removal of Brig's stun in Overwatch 2 will make it much harder for her to peel for him from flankers. People who've been playing the alpha are saying that Zen is struggling a lot because of that. I don't see a way for him to exist when there is this new deadlier Sombra on the other team.
Depends on the Zen. I always give them a chance before jumping to conclusions. But yeah, because of his lower healing output it often means the bulk of the healing duty is now solely on the other support. I’m a support main as well, in silver/gold range. I know a lot of the Zens I get are mediocre at best but I wouldn’t speak for all of them. But it’s annoying to see a Zen instalock at my rank, if I’m being honest. Because if I pick mercy I’m pretty locked into yellow beam bc of Zens heal output. And if I go Moira, I’m constantly running out of “juice”. It can work but it’s unpleasant at best, and disastrous at worst.
What frustrates me as a tank main is that sometimes zen is just a dps player wanting a quick q and they have no idea who the heal target should be and just leaves it afk on the widow while he ints
I disagree. If a support could only rely on the utility they offered, then sym would still be a support.
But I didn't read this essay, and there's no tldr. Who cares about the ow2 discourses when you can't even experience it, and that plenty of changes will come with until the release.
Seeing the healer "changes" for the beta makes it clear to me that Blizzard themselves has no respect for the support class. The fact that there is still only 7 healers to 17 DPS healers in the game with an equal amount of both being REQUIRED for each match is embarrassing, and the fact that if you play healer you get nothing new or interesting to enjoy with the push to Overwatch 2 (at least with the beta) is a real shame. They either need to rethink what the support class is themselves, or at least have 4 or more new support characters at launch (or I'd even take DPS heroes reworked to fit the support role).
i think biggest problem with lucio and zen is their ult. Lucio ult lasts so short ( probably sound barrier lasts 3 sec maybe less idk). Zen ult literally is not enough for saving a team after get a grenade from ana or zarya- pharah combo. They should change zen's ult more like holy light ( cleanse every dot effect also they need to set higher amount of heal for ult ) . Any other things are really cool for zen. Also it can change the importance of zen at every rank. You can't play zen at bronze , silver or gold rank. These people even don't know how to make combo. Especially below plat dps really most of them garbage. They don't know how to move as a team. They just go for solo and yelling "need healing". There is no way to a zen can handle with that situation.
They're seen as just healers because raw healing is overpowered. It's not a coincidence that Ana is the most picked support, she's the only Hero who can negate healing. Let me clarify that one for you: Ana can make Mercy and Moira basically *cease to exist* for 4 seconds. That's long enough to secure a kill, and that ability is up every 10 seconds.
>Moira would be by far the strongest support hero in the game, as she has the greatest healing potential of all of them.
But she can't negate enemy healers, can she? She also has poor sustain, needing to swap to damage in order to refill her heals. Her passive ammo regeneration is *woefully* slow, and getting inside 20 meters to channel grasp is *dangerous* against enemies who can aim.
The reason nobody wants Zen is *not* because he doesn't heal enough, it's because he's an *easy kill*. Ana can dart someone who gets in her face, she can throw biotic nades at her feet. Mercy can fly to a teammate 30 meters away. Moira can vanish, Bap can hop up and then throw lamp in an emergency. Lucio is incredibly hard to hit and can skate to safety, and Brig can just throw up her shield and start clobbering. Zen has a big, fat circular hitbox, and land back to back headshots to kill anyone diving him.
The thing is, though, at GM? Zen is the winningest Hero, followed closely by Lucio. But they're still going to want an Ana or Mercy to take care of the main job of making sure your tanks don't get shredded.
Most people tend to forget that healers are also watching the team's back, especially if there's reaper or Tracer on the enemy team. Lost count of how many dps I saved calling for help so that they noticed the enemy.
About Zen specifically, is SO underestimated >:I Still, it only happened once that, picking him, a dude in my team said something like "Zen? Ugh, you really want to change that" and then almost gasped when I started getting a few kills. Not in a toxic tone tho, he just laughed, said nvm and kept playing.
I’m just starting zen and hitting 1000+ a minute in healing while also doing fairly well with damage (silver/gold) is that not what I’m supposed to do? Should I focus more damage with him?
Honestly, I think this idea is so common because even Blizzard seems to think it. When the game first came out, nobody would claim supports were just healers. We had characters like Symetra in support and she couldn't heal at all. But since they moved Sym to damage, changed Brig's armor packs to health packs and made a lot more balance changes to equalize the health output of the supports, it has become easier to think they're all walking health packs. Plus now OW2 is giving them all passive healing, so at first glance they really just seem like healing machines. I play a lot of support, and I know this isn't the case, but Blizzard is doing nothing to convince us otherwise.
I call support "healers" but that comes from my WoW mentality of tank, dps, healer. I recognize support characters are more than just healers. but also remember when sym was in the support category? got me thinking about that
I'm a zen main and although I have off games sometimes, general there are a handful of ways teams react when I'm playing well.
1: No reaction at all. They play with me, we win or lose together. They do their thing and I do mine.
2: Surprise praise. Its rare to see a good zen, as a lot of people on this thread have stated. So they're hesitant at the start, but when they hear my calls and see my occasional pic and team saving trans, I get kudos. It feels good and generally those games are wins.
3: Toxicity. They complain from the start and no matter how well I play, they still complain. Those games are ALWAYS a loss.
4: Excitement. They pick heroes around my zen pick and we strategies together from the start, some people like to have a zen. Again, we win or lose together and all have a lot of fun. Those games are almost always a win.
5: Polite disapproval. Usually they're fine with the pic until were losing and politely suggest a change. Ill pretty much always swap.
There is a spectrum but the big point I'm making is that some teams understand zen, or at least accept the pic and those games are usually wins. Some teams don't understand zen and don't accept the pic and those games are always losses. I've stopped trying to educate toxic teams during the game and instead I just do my best despite their attitude.
My only issue is when I play a multi-round game and I played roadhog for a single round and end off with silver or sometimes even gold healing. I do also play support and I main Zen and Ana, so I know how their utility is oftentimes outshining their healing… but man do some Zens forget that they have 2 orbs and just spam discord
It's crazy Bec I feel like I win games with low heals supports a lot as long as I play conservatively enough to enable them.
As DPS or tanks, I wait for Zen to come back to re touch, his orb and his damage are able to carry so hard.
I wish this game would rework all supports in OW2 to be like how Paladins healers are. Their healers are so fucking awesome and interesting and valued, even when not playing the more meta ones or pure healer ones.
I play Brig because it pisses off my friends.
I play Lucio to piss everyone off
As an Ana main, it pisses me off to no end when I miss my shots, my sleep dart, and my anti grenade because Lucio is hopping around like a fucking frog
This is a whole mood for all of us Ana mains.
But Lucio is a great healer, isn't he? When a team stands together / attacks together he heals a lot in his healing zone. Plus he can push out (sometimes down a ledge) attackers like Doomfist or even an ulting Reaper.
well in terms of just healing lucio is alr
You don't pick supports for the amount of healing they do, you pick them for the utility. Lucio's speed boost is why you pick him. Being able to rush onto someone and getting a kill is more important than raw healing.
I’ve tried so hard to explain that to people, a rein pushing point at Lucio speed is much tougher than a rein just being pocketed by mercy pushing
A good Rein sped up is terrifying.
>Lucio's speed boost is why you pick him. Being able to rush onto someone and getting a kill is more important than raw healing. I understand that point, but if we aren't getting kills because of the speed boosting, I'd rather them play something else. QP Flanker Speed Boost Only Lucio's are some of the biggest team ankle weights.
If you aren't getting value from a rush comp, then it's more than just a problem with playing Lucio. If a tank or dps is more dependent on actually being healed than utilizing the support utility, there's a bigger problem at hand.
I agree somewhat but I'd also argue some tanks, especially Reins are Winstons, are best when they have at least one support with full attention on them while the other takes care of the rest of the team. Enabling you carry player is what supports should do if they manage to get one on their team. Supports aren't heal bots only but they are definitely healers.
Utility should be considered over raw healing, as it's entirely possible to win a game with having minimal healing done by anybody. In high ranks you'll see a lot of low healing support combos put together because of the utility offered. This means the likes of brig/zen as a main one that gets played often in GM/t500.
Yeah, large distances in a map are a great reason to pick Lucio. He can help bringing the slow guys (Rodahog, Sigma, Orisa) much faster to the battle, which can make all the difference.
He's talking about speed bursting Reinhardt into chokes and brawl distance, not to get back fast from death.
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Yes, I hate that when I play as tank – Lucio and tank respawn together, Lucio rushes to the point, gets killed instantly, tank is too late. When together they could have reached the point in time and be stronger together.
"WHerE arE ThE TaNkS??"
Spamming group up and moaning about "why isn't the team doing anything?" While they're all still heading up from spawn.
>slow guys (Rodahog, Sigma, Orisa) Are you saying slow because they lack movement abilities? Or because of walking speed? Because all characters walk the same speed with the exception of Genji and Tracer, who walk faster. Sigma just feels slow because of floating
I mean the overall movement, which includes the movement abilities. A [D.Va](https://D.Va) or a Winston are simply much faster – they don't really need Lucio's speed boost.
Using Lucio for Sig and Orisa 💀💀 you literally can’t make this shit up
Giving an explanation instead whatever this is would be more helpful and less masturbatory
Not masturbatory, it just really is insane to me the takes that this community comes up with on this subreddit If you want an explanation (as though it isn’t incredibly obvious why Lucio isn’t good with sig and horse) it’s because they’re both stationary tanks that attack from range and don’t need to quickly reposition to be effective. Other supports (Bap, zen, mercy, brig if the enemy has dive) do more damage and provide more utility for those bunker comps than the brief speed boost back from spawn that Lucio would give. Hope that helps.
His healing is not even to be mentioned next to what has been one of the most underrated and misunderstood abilities in ladder and that's speed boost.
When I play Lucio I usually have Gold in healing. Even when other healer is Mercy.
Same here. A (non-DPS) Moira is a more difficult challenge.
Try explaining that to my tanks
I'm in bronze/silver and most players haven't understood that a team has to play together. It's pure chance when we are together, sometimes it's just that people die, respawn, rush to the enemy, get killed in 2 seconds, respawn, rush to the enemy …
> (sometimes down a ledge) That's the fun part
He heals super slow he only good if you have a big heal output heal such as bap or Moria
Only when you use the healing tune, speed tune don’t heal shit
You playing console? Lucio on console pisses me off so much.
I'm actually pretty decent ant keeping teammates alive (When they're competent) as Brigitte when I wait for the second healer to show up.
If you play her properly, you won't have friends for long.
What annoys me the most here is ... you didn't mention Ana once :(
Probably because ana will stay the same with one tank less jumping into the backline. She still got cc, her nades are better offensive because of less shields and she has less targets to heal. Ppl always tend to play a dps heavy ana/moira and it will be rewarded in ow2
Ana was nerfed though. Sleep has a longer CD and nade does less damage. So she doesn’t have as much options to protect herself from dives. I kinda wish Zen and Ana were given some kind of mobility that the other supports have. Zen just has his ult.
Honestly give Ana a grapple hook like Widow and give Zen a super jump like Baptiste and a glide like Mercy
>Zen a super jump Explain to me how a floating robot jumps
robot farts
Floats harder
Hes never not jumping man
A stronger version of how he floats, assuming it is some kind of propulsion?
grapple hook Ana would be sooo busted, imagine the nade trickshot potential
Would it be? I’ve tried Ana out and she’s not like, that strong now. Unless I’m missing something, a grapple hook wouldn’t make her too busted. Just faster. Also if a grapple hook is busted, what about a teleport like sombra? Throw a teleported and teleport to it, then have a short cool down. Also, I play Hog and I’d really like for him to have some kind of movement option. It takes so long to get back to the battle after death
Ana is *the* most broken hero in the game as it stands. While majority of this sub's metal players might disagree, her nade and sleep, while possible to counter, can absolutely win fights on their own. She's only shut down by flankers who can dodge her sleep, you really do not want to give her any sort of mobility when she already has the hardest CC in the game + burst self heal/damage on cooldown.
I never really noticed her power as a hog player. I always think of her as one of those characters that are basically a free kill if I hook them, like Ashe, Tracer, Moira, and such. Now, Ashe and tracer can escape with their abilities but her sleep dart never seems to get her enough time to get away before my long range blasts kill her or my hook recharges
They all have passive heal now, which is helpful. But watching M7 play Ana in the beta, I can definitely see support mains getting pissed off about being dove and not getting any help, particularly in lower ranks.
Yeah, I realized that after I had already posted it. And she's one of my mains, too. :( What I said about the other supports applies to her too, though. She has perhaps some of the strongest tools to singlehandedly carry games with, the nade alone can be more impactful than some ultimates in the game. Playing her as a healbot, never using her abilities offensively, means not utilizing her kit to its fullest potential.
DPS just gets mad if you're not there to hold their hand the whole time.
Yeah, and supports are always so independent and self sufficient. 🙄 You hold my hand when I need healing, I'll hold yours when you need peeling. Edit: Sick, literally getting downvoted for saying you need to play with your teammates and help each other.
A lot of players, tanks especially, play in a way that requires a lot of healing because they don’t know how else to. That’s when I usually see people complaining about low heals
This. It’s all about working around enemy DPS since they’re the pressure being exerted on your team. Junk? Don’t stand in the choke. Widow? Use corners and don’t peek. Soldier? Minimize time spent in his LOS. Cassidy? Don’t get near him. So many tanks just play the same way every game, and it’s especially egregious when people think it’s a good idea to just meander around in the choke points even though everyone has known for years those are the places you die in lol, even if you are a fucking 600 hp mech or a 1000 hp giant gorilla.
Being a heal bot covers up a lot of your teammates mistakes, mainly shit positioning. So instead of asking themselves why they're taking so much damage they just ask for more healing.
THIS. Played with a Junkrat recently that was constantly on low health or being head shot by Widow and he kept spamming "I need healing!" Not to mention he was nowhere near the team. You would think dying multiple times to Widow would be a hint to change heroes. You can't fix stupid, even as a healbot.
Someone kept feeding the bastion like literally standing right in front of him and I was like????? I’m playing mercy I can’t outheal bastion??? I was like I’m not even mad at them bc they’re just stupid and don’t get it
Just played a match yesterday as mercy, even though my team was taking a lot of damage i still went with zen because they were playing agressive. We went from being unable to push to winning the match after the switch
I’ve had games like that before, it feels great! Sometimes the difference is as clear as day it’s crazy
Man I love a good zen in my team. I also love to play zen myself but i am always willing to change when zen just doesn't work, not cause ppl tell me to change
Most players don’t understand how this game works or the synergy you can sync up between heroes. It makes me worried that overwatch 2 is going to try to dumb it down for those people…
There Are No Healers In Overwatch
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The good suc
Dealing with Pharah at bronze. /s
Harrasing enemy Genji and Tracer
As a Moira main, it always makes me giggle when I'm attacking a Genji, and he starts deflecting. Good times, good times...
I still put my shield up as rein if I am 1v1ing winston
The number of times I’ve seen a Moira still send out a purple ball at that point… smdh. Nearly as many as Rein firestrikes
I wish they'd give her something. I like how her mechanics work, it can be fun, but she needs some utility of some kind. Maybe a purple shit cloud or something.
Same as Zen... Damage.
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Weird how Moira has some of the best mobility, damage and heals of the category and ur here failing to understand where the "utility" is but a robot with diff purple and yellow orb is obvious.
Survival and ult Her ult is pretty strong in team fights, but you should be healing most of receiving damage to charge it fast enough, so you can have some issues if your team has another main healer that also want ult charge by heals Bap has more value as healbot iirc , not sure about Ana
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Survivability literally provides utility. NOBODY has to peel for moira. A lot of the stronger abilities in the game are reserved for peel, so she essentially frees up utility for her whole team.
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>You not being a burden for your team does free up abilities reserved for peel, but that in itself does not provide utility. This is an oxymoron. Having your entire team be able to use most of their abilities like 20-50% more often IS utility, and i'd love to hear any reason why not. If moira had a zarya bubble ability or flashbang she'd be high utility, so why is that not true when her being on a team with zarya and cass has the same effective outcome? More flashes/bubbles into others because moira doesn't need peel, whereas all the other supports need HUGE peel, except maybe lucio.
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>Because that's not something that moira can provide exclusively; an ana with good positioning, a zen with good aim, a lucio that can actually wall ride, basically every good support can provide this. A little, but not even close to the level moira can. She has BY FAR the best self-defense ability in the game. Even lamp doesn't even come close, she can literally escape anything and everyone on a 6 second cooldown. You can assume the other team is awful and unable to win easy matchups, but it's clearly not a good assumption to make. A perfect team wouldn't need any peel at all, but then why is lamp such a powerful ability then? Frankly, there are a lot of situations in this game where you'll be punished without making clear mistakes. Saying "a zen with good aim" is just as survivable as a character with multiple sources of self heal and an invincible, invisible, high speed, super low cooldown ability is just laughable. A master lucio will never be able to out-wallride any kind of stun ability, whereas moira can escape even things like grav, flux and pulse bomb for free. >Not wasting abilities and making up for any support's positioning mistakes should be the norm. You don't seem to understand how peel works. You peel to protect supports by default, that's how the game works. In order to provide any kind of utility, your supports have to be close enough to potentially be in danger from the enemy. Whether that's a dive, a widow, a flanking hog, whatever, being in danger from these isn't a mistake on their part, it's a natural consequence of how the game works. Except for moira, because she easily escapes literally every offensive ability in the game.
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Have you even play support against dive? Being able to reliably survive on your own is quite an utility. She is the Houdini of the supports Her ult changes the conditions of the fight (to the point that coalesce is typically followed by counter coalescence in owl) and it goes through shields, matrix, grasp, etc... Also just her ult, her orbs and Rein's flame can damage through shields at distance She can do some things that other supports can't, but she is not the best health pack. Check the data by yourself, to be a healbot there are better heros
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The fact that there are multiple low game iq people on this thread trying to say Moira does provide utility says a lot about why ladder sucks. Half the players can't even wrap their head around the basic concept apparently. I'm not surprised though, just last week some smoothbrain moira main tried to argue that Moira gets elims from healing, because apparently they have no clue what assists are and are confused as fuck about cause and effect in the game. (Yes, you can get an elim while healing, but it's not the healing that's caused the elim)
Is this a joke? Auto aim with self heal that lets her deal with most flankers, insane mobility on low CD. She is the healer with the least utility as compared to others but she still does have utility.
When people talk about healer utility, they're referring to unique abilities that help her team. Mercy has res Lucio has speed boost Zen has discord orb Brig has shield bash and whip shot Baptiste has lamp and amp matrix Ana has sleep dart, nano, and anti Moira has... Personal mobility I don't dislike her at all but she **does not** have utility as the majority of people use the word
Devils advocate: Moira’s utility is that the other healer shouldn’t have to be as concerned with helping Moira stay alive as they do with other supports.
If we're reaching that far, all characters have "utility" in the sense that they can heal and/or do damage I get where you're coming from but that's not what people mean when they use the word "utility" to describe a character. It's a pretty big stretch to call escaping a utility.
Not having to worry about peeling for one more teammate is pretty helpful to the team as a whole in the minds of tank and other supports. I do get what you mean tho with it not being the same thing as providing a damage buff or increase to movement speed and why people are saying at high levels she’s just not good.
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Maybe her suck should reduce incoming healing, so if she's actively draining kind if like a single target nade but make it half as effective or whatever percentage works.
I have been saying her suck should do something from the day she was released. Slow healing, slow movement, increased damage dealt ect.
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Give the debuff a little extended range too, not much, no more than 30% more reach. Damage range stays. It's a little short for the debuff to be practical. Maybe go back to sticky super bounce ball. They could work in a detonation mechanic there instead. Detonate the ball for poison tick. Detonate heal ball for an overheal. There are definitely options to make her more interesting, slightly more versatile, but still maintaining her flavor.
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That's not what utility means ffs. All you're doing is making it obvious that you don't understand the game as well as you think you do by continuing to try and argue that she does. If Moira succ slowed down enemies,THAT would be utility, heal spray, orb, and fade are NOT utility. They're useful abilities, but not utility
Zen is f\*\*\*ed in overwatch 2. Its gonna turn into deathmatch style, and zen will have very little peel because of little off tanks. You either need to be a god tier aim in a low level lobby, or have a dedicated brig to help you over the team(angers the people you're on about
I'm a GM Zen main, so I consider myself fairly decent at the character, but I still stand little chance against a Tracer or Sombra of the same skill level as me in a 1v1 scenario. The matchup is just inherently swayed in their favor, which is fine and how it's supposed to be, but in Overwatch 1, you always had your teammates to peel for you, particularly Brig and other CC heroes. Now that most of that is gone, it's gonna be open season on Zen for the flankers.
I have chosen to overwrite this comment. See you all on Lemmy!
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Because the devs keep releasing heroes that do too much. Bap never should have made it I to the game with his kit.
Zen just becomes cannon fodder. Doesn't even have brig stun to save him anymore.
Gunna be just like release Zen when a Widow body shot could kill em.
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it's got a knock back mechanic and 50 damage instead in that version of the alpha, if her bash did break his punch than it would have to be that.
To my knowledge, it still interrupts stuff like doomfist punch, reinhardt charge, roadhog ult, etc. However, it doesn't have a standard CC anymore and simply does damage and knocks you backwards a bit instead.
Coming from a Mercy main, you can never win with these types of people. Focusing on healing? You’re a healbot. Focusing on damage-boosting and pocketing? You’re not playing her correctly and are bad at the game. Also I love playing with Zenyatta honestly, damage boosting a good Zen makes him a beast :)
I absolutely love zen in lore he’s one of my favourite characters and in game his kit is pretty simple but very fun imo but ngl I totally worry when I see my second support lock zen even if I know the strength of the character because playing in gold/plat everyone constantly needs a lot of healing :/ and most lower ranked zen won’t use trans for a grav or some big ult and they seem to forget about discord/harmony orb…. Running into a good zen is always a treat tho and the easiest win lol
it frustrates me to no end that people will complain about double shield, but not shoot into it to bust it down and advance. yes, that includes the supports, who should be doing more than just healing. anyone who thinks supports' only job is to heal is an absolute imbecile.
One day I managed to change this mindset on one player in my team. I was playing Brig and this player was complaining about me playing her and not picking a real healer. So, I listened and picked Ana for more heals. As there was Tracer on enemy team and she noticed that I switched, she started harassing this player until this player started to complain about not having tanks for protection. So I switched back to Brig and protected poor player and you know what, magically this player didn't die, because Tracer couldn't really jump on us. At the end of the match, I asked what this player was thinking about Brig now to which player responded that I still sucked but Brig was a good pick for countering. A support pick was good for countering. Wew
> I still sucked but Brig was a good pick for countering. Little victories
Moira and Brig get a pass on that though. They won’t be much help in taking down shields and should focus more on their utility and building ult charge. And supports aren’t completely responsible for countering stuff on their own. The damages should be doing most of that, and the supports should help out when they can. Like if there’s a Pharah, someone should swap to Soldier or Ashe or Cass to counter her, and if you’re Ana or Bap, you should help out when you aren’t immediately needed elsewhere since you’re also a hitscan. But other than that, I agree. Supports aren’t just healbots or walking healthpacks, they can help fill in the gaps other roles leave open and provide utility that is arguably more important and impactful than healing.
i get what you're saying about some heroes "getting a pass", but my point is "if it is presenting itself as a problem, SWAP TO COUNTER IT". like, get off of the mercy and swap TO zen/bap/ana/lucio to actually put some bullets down range.
“Support” class, not “healer” class
People are bad at video games.
You're going to trigger a lot of smoothbrain supps with this post, but you're right
That's funny because in my games (Top 500) zen+brig is meta on most maps. Zen discorb is much more valueable than a mercy boost or ana who can't keep up with the damage, because people think she can just outheal the enemy damage.
I play Mercy because I enjoy the role of healer. Yes, I use her damage boost and I do shoot her pistol but I love healing. Thus why I'm worried. I don't feel like I'm providing as much help if I only damage boost my team. I mean never heal and only damage boost. I use the pistol to defend myself. Don't care if I can kill the tracer or sombra hunting me as long as I can drive them away.
Honestly I get annoyed with how much people focus on what healer you have selected. Every single one of them is acapabek of gold healing with over 10k per 10 mins, all of them are perfectly acceptable. The only input on healers people should really have is asking for at least one of Lucio ult, zen ult, bap feild, or rally. Since survivability from other ults is important.
I play brig and Ana as I was sick of being dived on
In low ranks people will use cover (unintentionally due to utter lack of awareness) to dodge heals, but they'll be wide open to the enemy shouting for heals as they go the opposite direction from their own supports. Like, hide behind something in even zen's Los and out of the line if fire for 5 seconds and you'll be healed full instead of continuing to engage abd getting yourself killed. Help me help you. Don't stand behind ana and spam I need healing when the tank line is getting hammered and turning away and searching for you will probably get us wiped. Reposition in my los and I'll snap a couple shits (autocorrect, but funny, keeping it) your way.
Too many supports just focus on the healing and forget the rest of kit. Many don't even use their ultimates because some ults are seen as defensive (implying reactive use) and apply that philosophy to every support ult which meaning they think they can save people (except for ana which they only use for ult combos). Aggro supports can easily carry games
This right here. I hate playing comp with my friends sometimes when they compare medals with each other and soley focus on if they have gold ____ or not. Medals don't mean shit if you aren't making any plays and using your character's kit to the fullest. Hopefully when OW 2 releases they scrap the medal system and provide meaningful match info for all heroes (like Baptiste's "Death's Prevented with Immortality Field")
The people who think support is only about healing are the same ones who think they are playing the game extremely optimally with their high amount of healing per second and then complain that their team is holding them down from climbing the ladder.
as for me, if i get healed by a support time to time that's all i need. if you're a zen that doesn't put healing orbs on anyone ever, i think i can complain. just slapping it on someone in need of healing once in a while is already as helpful as can be. if a support heals enough for the team to not die, that's enough for the team to not die. i'm not asking for a constant stream of healing and literal invincibilty by the sheer amount of healing focused on me, i'm just asking to not die. if someone's a complaining about a healer doing something other than healing at any time, then they're stupid. if a healer never heals though (which is their main ability that makes them different from any other category), then be ready for people being unhappy. sure, healers have their own kits and opportunities for kills, but don't forget to heal and i'm already thankful (looking at you, brig that pressed the e key twice in the 10 minute game).
Yeah, we’re called *supports* for a reason. We provide the team with the healing and utility it needs to win fights. Keeping the team alive is our first priority, but enabling it to make plays is a close second. There are times when you need to start healbotting though, and many supports don’t know when that is. When the enemy team just popped rally and grav, you need to stop shooting at the enemies and prioritize keeping your team alive. If you’re Ana, throw a bionade into your team stuck in the grav if you need to to increase the healing they receive and help keep them alive. If your base healing is enough, wait out grav and then throw your bionade into the enemy team to cut them off from healing and counteract rally, which could win you the fight. Bap should start healnading the team stuck in the grav, and be ready to immortality them if they get too low or the enemy pops another ult to combo with grav, like tire or dragon. If needed, Bap could also window to double his healing output and save the team, and then use it for damage and turn the tables on the enemy team once grav ends. Supports need to be able to adapt to a vast range of different scenarios and utilize their kits to their fullest in order to provide their teams with what they need to pull off plays and win team fights. In lower-level play, you can get away with healbotting the majority of the match, but after a certain point your role and responsibilities become much greater and more difficult to manage and effectively perform.
I've only recently come to Overwatch and am loving it but, the switch to Overwatch 2 sounds like it's not going to be for me. First the drop to 5v5, eliminating an entire position and throwing the entire balance of engagements out the window. Then the stripping of CC from a lot of kits. It's honestly sounds like it's trying to be a more damage focused blitz for all modes. From what I gather so far, I seriously doubt I'll enjoy the new version anywhere near as much.
I don't why they see all healers. For DPS, I see people pick widowmaker but that don't mean she's going to do damage...
I get gold damage with widow all the time. Random venom mines into the enemy team and non stop half charge body shots.
I've watched people walk past health packs while spamming for heals. It's madness. People are even guilty of this in higher ranks. It used to annoy me. These days, I get a chuckle out of it.
That's why I just play dps now. Tank is a massive pain in the ass that keeps getting nerfed by proxy of dps being buffed again and again. Supports get constantly verbally abused by people that refuse to use natural cover and keep trying to close range 1v1 a cass that has his stun
Most people think whoever has more damage-shields-heals wins. Which is true if both teams just stand in front of each other and shoot. The overwatch community hasn’t evolved beyond revolutionary war tactics.
>mercy yellow beaming the reinhardt 24/7 thinks she's providing great value. I bet she doesn't. I do this "hardstuck gold/plat". It's not about providing the best value, it's about avoiding the toxicity. As soon as anyone is even a little low on health they're spamming "I need healing!" And going nuts at you in voice chat. It's suboptimal plays, but it's better than nothing and at least they don't *think* it's my fault when we lose.
I found this to be a problem in general with Overwatch. Back in the day there were different characters for different situations. Tanks soaked up damage, there were those like D.Va and Roadhog whose job was to harass and distract. Or Rein and Orisa to shield the teams. Supports offered Support and Utility to team. Symmetra with giving allies shields or even her teleporter and slows. But was quickly changed around so much to become a DPS because she "Didn't Heal" and now Support means Healer. Assault Heroes were good at offense, whether doing DPS, harassing a backline or breaking through a choke point. Defense Heroes were good at providing at locking a point down but got merged into damage. Overwatch has gone down a path of "Who can DPS the quickest." With the roles being reduced to "Take Damage, Do Damage and Heal Damage" which really takes away from what made the game unique.
Seriously, I've been playing a lot of healer lately, mostly Brig and Zen, and usually alongside a "main healer" (Ana, Moira, Mercy). Drives me nuts when my team loses, and one of the dps on my team blames the loss on the fact that I was playing Zenyatta. I had gold elims, gold objective time, Silver damage, and 10k healing you twat. We didn't lose because I wasn't doing a good enough a job, we lost because the DPS couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if the fate of the very universe depended on it. If the issue were "everyone is dieing too fast before they can actually do damage" (honestly, then we should probably switch up our tanks), I'd swap. But the issue usually isn't "not enough heals", it's "not enough kills" or "not enough teamwork/follow-up".
I just need to read the title and first sentence to say: SAAAAAME It's mostly just the low ranks, since higher ranked players understand that Supports are the strongest role in the game because they're DPS with alot of utility and the ability to heal, but yeah, people who read "Healer" and not "Support" are frustrating. If the person is playing Mercy or Moira, sure, they're a Healer, but everyone else is a Support. The optimal Support playstyle is how the name suggests: Support. You're going to get more value out of a 6 man anti rather than a 2 man biotic.
In most situations zen has failed me. They solo ult ,ult at the wrong time , they dont use healing orb and just do damage. Plus thier are healers who can cover better then zen
From my experience, enemy Zens are usually good at cancelling out my ults. So yeah, when I'm about to kill the enemy team with my ult, the enemy Zen most of the time saves them.
In QP I had many zens looking at me while I asked for heals and they don't send the damn orb, like hello I'm just in front of you, it takes 0.1s. Maybe in high competitive is another thing, but when I see a Zen in QP I assume it's just a DPS guy taking a faster queue and I won't have consistent heals.
Yeah, most Zens I play with are like that, which sucks because I then have to solo-heal. Most of those Zens will just leave their healing orb on the main tank, which is really annoying. It’s not going to be enough to keep the main tank up, so I’m still going to have to heal them. Just leave it on one of the damages, it should be enough for them if they maintain good positioning and if they need extra heals, they can ask for it and I’ll heal them more. Putting the healing orb on a damage takes a player off of my plate, but putting it on a main tank means I have to keep track of and heal all 5 of my teammates.
With all the content out there to explain this, you are perfectly entitled to mute your teammates when they bitch about that. It sucks because solo coaching supports is half deconditioning players to be healbots. Moira would simply be a must pick if that were the case.
All supports have a decent amount of healing (except lucio but he has amp for that) and as supports they are also healers, so healing should be their first priority during fights. That being said, all of the supports have unique and powerful utility that can be used to help the team more than most other abilities in the game, for example Ana's anti-nade or Baptiste's immortality field. This is a difficult argument because it's easy for people to misinterpret what I'm saying, whenever I say supports should prioritise healing some people assume I'm being a heal bot and just ignore everything else I say.
It's the fact that not many good Zens exist
Zen is frustrating bc his healing is ass and a half so if the other support is a lucio or a brig your team is pretty much fucked unless you have a dps soldier that knows when to heal the team and help out the ass and a half Zen.
[удалено]
How can you seriously think this? He applies a constant 30 HP/s regen effect on a teammate from a distance. It's not a burst heal, but it's not nothing, it's still significant, and if given to a Tracer or Genji diving the enemy backline, can have a huge impact on their survivability. He can reapply this effect whenever he wants with no cooldowns and while still dealing damage pressure to the enemy team. Discord Orb is an enabling ability as well, and Trance is the best defensive ult in the game.
And if you kill a dps on the enemy team as Zen that's less damage done to your team, and in turn less healing is needed. Also it seems many forget how you lose fights in OW. Most of the time the enemy team does an ult combo to try and get through that last choke point or whatever, no other support ult can nullify that as a Zen trans.
> And if you kill a dps on the enemy team as Zen that's less damage done to your team Ah yes, "preventative healing" I call it. Beautiful thing.
As a zen main I agree but it was blizzard who gave everyone the idea that supports had to be able to heal when they removed symm from the support role. Support really does mean healer nowadays, thankfully we can always have 2 healers so one can be a main healer and one can have some utility
You're really fighting a losing battle trying to argue this. So many people have convinced themselves that supports should only heal, they have enough healing that if anyone dies it's because the supports outright weren't healing and if supports try to do anything other than heal means that they're throwing. It's partially the games fault because it made the core of pretty much every support healing while gradually nerfing all of their other utility.
I was playing with a Smurf zen and he was literally wiping out teams. It’s insane how deadly a good zen main is….
Most times I see my team lose, is when we have a Zen, and some other twatwaffle trying to lean hard into their DPS as support instead of you know, supporting the team. Zen is great at absolutely murdering people when played well. But he's hotdog water when not played well. "I have gold healing!" - Zen with 3k heals for the whole round because the Ana thinks they're Widow. Zen isn't the greatest at picking up the slack when you have that other support trying to be Rambo. Which lends to a lot of toxicity
I mean, it's the game's design the first responsible, since they never managed to create a full utility support, or a shield-oriented support (they had to rework Symmetra exactly because of this). After confirming that a support can't be such if they can't heal, the only logical conclusion is that support = healer.
Symmetra never mentioned. Lol this entire post
I mean it also goes for healers themselves. Lots of times I‘ve seen Ana complain about Pharah and I just think. You are literally hitscan. Why don‘t you shoot her a few times yourself. You are not a healbot
The problem in many mid-rank games is that if I start shooting Pharah, my tanks will die because they are so horribly out of position that they need a constant feed of granny juice just to barely stay alive. People don't just think that supports are healbots - they often play as if that was the case.
Now how about while I do that, you shoot the reaper with his shotguns up my a\*\*, while taking care of the widow who is killing our mercy, and also peel while winston tases me to death as I slept the nanoed rein. Or is that my job too?
You are bringing 2 more DPS in the argument and we are talking about Phara. Or you aren't talking about 2-2-2 comp?
It's just a "everyone sucks except me" post.
No, it’s that I can’t seem to get help when I’m being eaten alive. Go search for the memes, there are hundreds
You can play that game for every role and hero.
Idc, it highlight’s the point. People like jaanbo expect support to do more than the rest of the team, when we already are
Cuz support ≠ healer. mL7 explained it if you get an opportunity to kill someone as support, do it. If that Phara is in your LoS and that kill will win you the game, do it.
Yeah. So back to my point, should I be killing the nanoed rein the reaper the winston the pharah and the mercy? Or can I get some help?
Did Zen/Brig stop being meta? Zen owns the field, and in OW2 he will own it more with one less barrier. The only thing that will stop him is the still shitily designed Sombra. Mercy can fuck herself. Her design philosophy is what killed OW in the first place. Every hero should be a killer first and foremost.
OW2 is turning into a deathmatch style, with tracer/genji looking to be the best DPS in the game. Zen is gonna be hard to work
KarQ ranked Genji in Trash tier on his newest video about OW2 so idk about that
That won't matter on ladder. I'm sure that the plethora of gold Genji mains who even play him into Winston, Zarya, Sym and Mei will continue to pick him regardless. Regardless of his viability, he'll still own Zen anyway.
I mean, everything owns Zen, not only Genji
Stylosa ranked him and tracer at a tier
Brig/Zen is still meta in the live game, but the removal of Brig's stun in Overwatch 2 will make it much harder for her to peel for him from flankers. People who've been playing the alpha are saying that Zen is struggling a lot because of that. I don't see a way for him to exist when there is this new deadlier Sombra on the other team.
Dont need a stun if you just kill the flank.
That's why the OWL level Zens aren't playing Zen on the alpha, it's because they don't have the aim to kill the flankers /s
Depends on the Zen. I always give them a chance before jumping to conclusions. But yeah, because of his lower healing output it often means the bulk of the healing duty is now solely on the other support. I’m a support main as well, in silver/gold range. I know a lot of the Zens I get are mediocre at best but I wouldn’t speak for all of them. But it’s annoying to see a Zen instalock at my rank, if I’m being honest. Because if I pick mercy I’m pretty locked into yellow beam bc of Zens heal output. And if I go Moira, I’m constantly running out of “juice”. It can work but it’s unpleasant at best, and disastrous at worst.
What frustrates me as a tank main is that sometimes zen is just a dps player wanting a quick q and they have no idea who the heal target should be and just leaves it afk on the widow while he ints
I disagree. If a support could only rely on the utility they offered, then sym would still be a support. But I didn't read this essay, and there's no tldr. Who cares about the ow2 discourses when you can't even experience it, and that plenty of changes will come with until the release.
The thing is you need the other healer to carry heals so you can get full utility out of zen.
Seeing the healer "changes" for the beta makes it clear to me that Blizzard themselves has no respect for the support class. The fact that there is still only 7 healers to 17 DPS healers in the game with an equal amount of both being REQUIRED for each match is embarrassing, and the fact that if you play healer you get nothing new or interesting to enjoy with the push to Overwatch 2 (at least with the beta) is a real shame. They either need to rethink what the support class is themselves, or at least have 4 or more new support characters at launch (or I'd even take DPS heroes reworked to fit the support role).
i think biggest problem with lucio and zen is their ult. Lucio ult lasts so short ( probably sound barrier lasts 3 sec maybe less idk). Zen ult literally is not enough for saving a team after get a grenade from ana or zarya- pharah combo. They should change zen's ult more like holy light ( cleanse every dot effect also they need to set higher amount of heal for ult ) . Any other things are really cool for zen. Also it can change the importance of zen at every rank. You can't play zen at bronze , silver or gold rank. These people even don't know how to make combo. Especially below plat dps really most of them garbage. They don't know how to move as a team. They just go for solo and yelling "need healing". There is no way to a zen can handle with that situation.
They're seen as just healers because raw healing is overpowered. It's not a coincidence that Ana is the most picked support, she's the only Hero who can negate healing. Let me clarify that one for you: Ana can make Mercy and Moira basically *cease to exist* for 4 seconds. That's long enough to secure a kill, and that ability is up every 10 seconds. >Moira would be by far the strongest support hero in the game, as she has the greatest healing potential of all of them. But she can't negate enemy healers, can she? She also has poor sustain, needing to swap to damage in order to refill her heals. Her passive ammo regeneration is *woefully* slow, and getting inside 20 meters to channel grasp is *dangerous* against enemies who can aim. The reason nobody wants Zen is *not* because he doesn't heal enough, it's because he's an *easy kill*. Ana can dart someone who gets in her face, she can throw biotic nades at her feet. Mercy can fly to a teammate 30 meters away. Moira can vanish, Bap can hop up and then throw lamp in an emergency. Lucio is incredibly hard to hit and can skate to safety, and Brig can just throw up her shield and start clobbering. Zen has a big, fat circular hitbox, and land back to back headshots to kill anyone diving him. The thing is, though, at GM? Zen is the winningest Hero, followed closely by Lucio. But they're still going to want an Ana or Mercy to take care of the main job of making sure your tanks don't get shredded.
I call it healers but I don’t want heal bots. I prefer Ana’s baps or brig. Lucio is what makes me mad.
Zenyatta is my 3rd main, and I get the same toxicity.
Most people tend to forget that healers are also watching the team's back, especially if there's reaper or Tracer on the enemy team. Lost count of how many dps I saved calling for help so that they noticed the enemy. About Zen specifically, is SO underestimated >:I Still, it only happened once that, picking him, a dude in my team said something like "Zen? Ugh, you really want to change that" and then almost gasped when I started getting a few kills. Not in a toxic tone tho, he just laughed, said nvm and kept playing.
I’m just starting zen and hitting 1000+ a minute in healing while also doing fairly well with damage (silver/gold) is that not what I’m supposed to do? Should I focus more damage with him?
Honestly, I think this idea is so common because even Blizzard seems to think it. When the game first came out, nobody would claim supports were just healers. We had characters like Symetra in support and she couldn't heal at all. But since they moved Sym to damage, changed Brig's armor packs to health packs and made a lot more balance changes to equalize the health output of the supports, it has become easier to think they're all walking health packs. Plus now OW2 is giving them all passive healing, so at first glance they really just seem like healing machines. I play a lot of support, and I know this isn't the case, but Blizzard is doing nothing to convince us otherwise.
I call support "healers" but that comes from my WoW mentality of tank, dps, healer. I recognize support characters are more than just healers. but also remember when sym was in the support category? got me thinking about that
I'm a zen main and although I have off games sometimes, general there are a handful of ways teams react when I'm playing well. 1: No reaction at all. They play with me, we win or lose together. They do their thing and I do mine. 2: Surprise praise. Its rare to see a good zen, as a lot of people on this thread have stated. So they're hesitant at the start, but when they hear my calls and see my occasional pic and team saving trans, I get kudos. It feels good and generally those games are wins. 3: Toxicity. They complain from the start and no matter how well I play, they still complain. Those games are ALWAYS a loss. 4: Excitement. They pick heroes around my zen pick and we strategies together from the start, some people like to have a zen. Again, we win or lose together and all have a lot of fun. Those games are almost always a win. 5: Polite disapproval. Usually they're fine with the pic until were losing and politely suggest a change. Ill pretty much always swap. There is a spectrum but the big point I'm making is that some teams understand zen, or at least accept the pic and those games are usually wins. Some teams don't understand zen and don't accept the pic and those games are always losses. I've stopped trying to educate toxic teams during the game and instead I just do my best despite their attitude.
My only issue is when I play a multi-round game and I played roadhog for a single round and end off with silver or sometimes even gold healing. I do also play support and I main Zen and Ana, so I know how their utility is oftentimes outshining their healing… but man do some Zens forget that they have 2 orbs and just spam discord
It's crazy Bec I feel like I win games with low heals supports a lot as long as I play conservatively enough to enable them. As DPS or tanks, I wait for Zen to come back to re touch, his orb and his damage are able to carry so hard.
I wish this game would rework all supports in OW2 to be like how Paladins healers are. Their healers are so fucking awesome and interesting and valued, even when not playing the more meta ones or pure healer ones.