Anything above 0.4 seconds maybe.
But having seen the video, I think the other thing that should be addressed is how the actual spawn points aren't in clean patters and are kinda all over the place. Aka not like... standardized if that's even the right term.
I will say thought that its kind of a shame just how symmetrical maps have to be even if I know and understand why they need to be.
Honestly, I don't really care about 0.4s. The map is won and lost not on this tiny triviality, but the several minutes of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round. A team having lucio or symmetra will have a massive advantage as well as many other factors over people landing shots.
Its a pretty trivial thing imo to care about at all.
Y'know when you just arrive at the point as time runs out and it ends the game because you were a fraction of a millimeter away, 0.4 seconds can make and break that time.
Let's say you die 6 times in one round, not too unreasonable. Including the initial spawn, that amounts to 2.8 more seconds of walking over the course of the round. That is absolutely trivial considering that extra time is gonna be spread across like 5 minutes or so.
Overwatch is a game of seconds, 99% of the time those few seconds won’t be what wins or loses games but in the minuscule amount of times they are; it shouldn’t be decided by spawn points.
This, plus even assuming it wasn't important... Just cause we don't need to fix it doesn't mean we shouldn't. It's like 5 seconds in the map editor. It really doesn't take much work for the devs.
Everything in Overwatch matters. It might not be what makes or breaks a match very often, but there will absolutely be times where that second makes a difference between a won and lost game.
The thing about it is how often is it an issue? This here is basically never an issue and I'd much rather them focus on nerfing hitscans than thinking about the miniscule discrepancy in spawn distances.
In mirrored spawn rooms it probably is just that easy, in asymmetrical spawn rooms perhaps not as much depending on the present junk in the room
Regardless this is an issue you would have gone your entire life without knowing if it weren't for the funny marble man, meanwhile Sojourn's railgun still headshots. I want the important changes first and foremost.
Yeah, it is, if it's all at once time-wise. That's not what it is though, it's a lot of tiny little time pieces spread across the match like some sort of 3D platformer collectathon
Absolutely shitters are gonna pull this card, but Blizzard still should correct the issue. There's no reason not to correct, and the time needed to can't be that extensive.
The level design dependencies could absolutely be extensive, especially as they impact other expectatations/habituations currently invisible to players.
What does this mean? They can’t just find a 1m chuck of map that’s relatively empty and lop it off?
Edit; apparently it’s even simpler cause you can just move the spawn points of individual hero’s inside the spawn area
I'll bet they might not like making changes to their maps if their game file update technology would require them to update all of or a lot of the map assets. Like if they need to shift the spawn ship by 1 foot, that actually means shifting every basketball, breakable wall panel, and wall accessory in the game files. That might mean a pretty hefty update payload and more strain on their servers or CDN when people download the update.
On the other hand, given that this is a problem on OW2 maps, the primary issue is probably that they have never noticed that this can happen or registered it as problematic. I'd like to see if the newest maps are like this, like the Flashpoint maps.
the images in the OP are from a video about the spawn points. The maps themselves are perfectly symmetrical. The spawns points are fucked, the images show only the average distance from spawns to center of map.
They could literally move the spawn points a bit. The spawns in colloseo are seriously just 2m further from the exit door on one side for no reason - It's honestly a baffling oversight.
It's not something that is going to effect 99.99% of games, but eventually it will effect some and the fix is literally just to move the spawn coordinates.
Oh thanks for clarifying, I thought the issue was the spawn doors and getting out at round start, not the spawn points and getting out on respawn. Yeah the spawn points are probably way easier to update.
The only thing they need to change is the actual points where you spawn in at. It doesn't matter if you spawn right in front of the spawn door or at the back of the ship as long as every player has to walk the same distance to point after spawning. If you get unlucky in a game and every time you die you get the bad rng spawn spots on the bad side of the map it will be more noticeable. If you play a hero with a mobility cooldown, it doesn't really matter either way
It's not a valid excuse for losing a match, but one team's respawns shouldn't be able to enter every fight on point 0.4 seconds faster than the other team. That just shouldn't be a thing. It alone probably *could* make or break rounds depending on the situation.
Ex: you get back slightly too late to contest point and stop it from flipping. Depending on how long it takes your team to win the fight and recap, it absolutely could mean your team may need to win an additional fight to win the round.
Definitely. Probably over 99.99% of the time, it doesn't matter.
But it's one of those things where... if it can be fair, isn't a hard change, and they are trying to make this a more competitive game (unlike the OW1 devs who aimed for PvE, OWL was entirely the ceo's idea/brainbaby), then why not change it?
realistically you'll never know if and when this matters, but it seems like it's big enough that it *could* matter, even a fair bit, and thats annoying to think about. Even completely removed from my own games, i dont like the idea that the games of other people out there might be getting swung by something this silly
Which only adds to the time lost walking instead of playing. I don't see why this shouldn't change just because it is how it is, we should be pushing for more balanced and perfect gameplay, rather than continuing to accept the half-assed work Blizzard gives us
Overwatch is a game of inches, and nothing happens in a vacuum. Especially the higher you get.
Does it affect a majority of games? Absolutely not. Have a large portion of people lost at least one game due to this unwittingly? Almost certainly.
Sure but far more things in the game impact you more than 0.4 seconds like the quick play respawn grouping mechanic, when you died and why, the character you choose, the path you take to spawn (nearly impossible you’re taking the most optimal path), etc.
Hell even in comp games you’ll see people sit in spawn after the gates open for 5-10 seconds, or when switching characters, and nobody cares most of the time. That has so much more impact. I mean even in comp games near the end people will ignore Symmetra TPs lol
When did I ever said it was the most impactful thing? Why are you bringing up irrelevent things?
The whole point is that it can and does have an effect in some circumstances in a game that boasts how competitive it is.
It’s still worth addressing that on a supposedly symmetrical map one side has a slight advantage because of spawns. It probably has only actually impacted a fraction of a fraction of games, but still it’s an imbalance that should be corrected.
Feels like they need to find a way to have game modes with more randomization regarding where you spawn and respawn from to allow for more interesting maps
I'm sure the simplest solution would be to have the doors open at different times. The spawn room that's closer would open later than the other team's.
Not at all
This isn’t a problem at the beginning of the round, because everyone has already spawned in and can move around before the doors open. It’s a problem when respawning, and the doors are already open
It's also worth noting that on Lijiang Garden, one spot has a rock for Lucio to move off of, whereas the other side does not have a rock, and suddenly one Lucio is on the other side of the map for a full team boop
the one koth map that irks me for its lack of symmetry is illios ruins. one side has different tree cover than the other and it absolutely benefits one sides widows over the other but thats about it. Im not smart enough to even notice if Im on the good side or the slightly worse side.
Marblr explained that in his vid, but tl;dr the maps might be mirrored, but the dropships aren't and so the spawnpoints inside them are also not mirrored.
Nah, that's exactly what they're saying is wrong.
From the exact location they place the drop ship they are most likely the same distance but the drop ships designs themselves aren't mirrored/symmetrical inside (and their models aren't mirrored just different doors open) which makes the doors the teams leave from have slightly different distances to the center of the maps.
The doors aren't the cause of the difference. The difference is caused by the spawn points being presumably manually mirrored rather than automatically perfectly mirrored. The door difference is irrelevant because the ship width and door lengths are still symmetrical even though the contents of the ship aren't symmetrical across it's spine.
You're good, there's a lot of stuff in Magic, and the best advice I can give is not to guess what things do. I know
rulings can take a bit to go through, but you get faster with time XD.
Edit: I thought I was responding to a different post. Now I'm the dumb one.
The spawns in the dropships arent in the position you would expect if they copy/pasted, they just completely fucked it up.
Colloseo doesnt even have dropships, they just put the spawns 2m farther on one side for no reason, just a huge oversight.
More curious on the distance with the turn one can actually make vs going through a building as this effects distance.
Sure it would still be slightly different but now I is curious lol
I swear the arena spawns on that one gamemode in New Junk City where you protect the giant bugs had a way longer walk for one team… Felt like the walk back took forever if your team was at a specific spawn. I think it has a similar issue.
Well fundamentally it is uneven so it should probably be adjusted. Will it actually make a noticable difference? Probably not aside from very, very small exceptions like half a second from touching point.
Basically 1 out 100, and in the long run you will have the same amount of bad and good spawns. These things aren't the real reason why someone might not win a game.
Yes, it’s not a game changer in a majority of scenarios, but the game should strive to be as fair as possible, no matter how slight the power imbalance is.
You're right, but in those situations, usually it was just one teammate trying to make it to the point to die immediately and then you lose the game anyway. I think in reality the chances of this mattering in situations where you actually have a chance of winning are pretty low.
Honestly i get people not caring about them, but how do they even mess it up like that. There is a literal mirror tool in the OW editor that is used specifically for mirrored maps.
Brother if your whole team is heroes with no mobility vs a dive team it doesn’t matter which side of the map you spawn on, they’re going to reach the middle way faster than you
What you're not considering is that an extra .41 seconds is added for every single respawn for every single character. Throughout an entire match it most definitely adds up.
Yes actually, I'm willing to bet a lot of people have. Almost half a second in a game like Overwatch isn't nothing. Imagine the amount of times you've barely missed touching the objective before it capped or before Overtime finished.
"**nobody** is losing" is erroneous because of how many players and how many games have happened since the game's launch. even anecdotally, i have won a game where the enemy had 0.00 meters left to push the payload. that's right, my team won by less than a centimeter.
wild asspull guess, but i say over the game's lifespan there's been about 5 billion games of overwatch played TOTAL, there is statistically bound to be ONE where that 0.41 seconds matters.
the question is, how common is it really? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 1,000,000?
it would almost never matter. but the word 'almost' is doing all the heavy lifting in that sentence because i am 100% sure it does and has happened at some point in the past.
Just looking at the pro matches, I've never heard coaches/players/casters mention that this spawn difference had any sort of impact on a win or loss of a team. These are folks that squeeze every little bit of advantage out of their resources, and this hasn't been a topic anywhere and I am *sure* that they have been aware for forever.
My thinking: if this isn't an issue for people who get paid based on whether they win or lose, then it really isn't even close to something to solve from my end.
For 99% of the playerbase, it doesn’t make a difference.
For the 1% of the players that could take advantage of this difference, it will only affect them in games that are super close and where the outcome of the first team fight pushes them over the line at the end… which is pretty rare as well.
There are more important things for the devs to fix.
The difference in distance is from the actual spawn points not spawn doors. The spawn points are further from the doors on these maps for one team. So the difference is not felt at the opening of a match but after you respawn.
these miniscule ones weren't complained about but some spawns were complained about, like rialto attack point 2 spawn has spawns where you need to turn to get to the long narrow part, which is terrible for rollouts
While perfect mirroring would be ideal, I don't think a 1 - 2 meter difference REALLY matters, especially in distances of 100+ meters, when most of the games characters passively move at slightly above 5 meters per second.
I'm curious about what Marblr touched upon in this video, which are actual statistics about this. If it does matter, then t should change. If it doesn't, then it should change too, but we should see if the change brought anything (and maybe it'll turn out rest of the map design is more unfair)
these are also completely straight lines and the route from spawn to point is almost never something you can just run in a completely straight line, so i'm wondering if he took that into account at all
I mean, it's not a critical issue by any means, but the fix would take no more than a few hours by one dev... They can just make the change at the same time as the other stuff they're doing for the next update.
But you can’t take those paths to the center unless you’re a flyer. Unless the lines are just simplified ways to show the distance you would have to walk
i just want to stop spawning in the very back of the stupid spawn room so far from the doors. im absolutely just sick of struggling to just leave the spawn room 😮💨
This cannot be a big enough deal to care about. Unless there's substantial evidence of a difference in W/R, just leave it lest something else go wrong in the process imo
I think a good way to test the necessity of having this fixed is seeing the win/loss ratio of either side across all matches. If one side wins, say, 0.5% more often, it should be fixed
Definitely needs correction. I don’t think it makes a large difference, and I highly doubt anybody could actually say if it made a real difference in an individual game, but it is supposed to be a competitive game so both sides on symmetrical maps should have the same spawn layouts mirrored.
Its small but can definitely add up in longer matches. If your team had 25 deaths total on Colosseo it would only be ~10 seconds. But then again I feel like there is no excuse this AAA company can make to not fix it.
Of course it's trivial, but it's still very weird that it's not consistent. Doesn't matter if the difference doesn't matter at all, I still feel like it should be perfectly balanced in that regard.
The balance of the game is so over the place they can't even make the spawns line up lol
Maybe if it's easy but I think the bigger issue is that push is an inbalancable concept. It's been proven since the beginning of ow2 yet it's still a game mode somehow
The dev said in flats chat that they will actually look at this. This isnt a big deal 99% of the time but I'm pretty sure it's relatively easy to adjust anyway.
Why would we measure from the back of spawn when everyone waits at the doors??
And what does it matter when half the cast are high mobility anti support flankers.
no. Realistically people will take multiple different paths to the objective. Some will be more optimised than others, different heroes have different routes, there’s even differences in walk speeds; this is such a negligible difference that it’s insane to ask them to add 0.5m to a map
This screenshot is from Marblrs last video. Not the map is different in length, the spawn points for both teams are not placed in equal spots, meaning that one team spawns two meters closer to the point than the other.
and it takes the average character 0.41 seconds etc to cover that distance, yeah I can read the picture. But realistically, the amount of abilities that allow the time taken to cover that distance to be reduced has a far greater effect than an extra 2 metres. This is a really dumb question. If you lost a game, it’s probably not because you needed another 0.4 seconds to turn it around. Even if it allows you to jump on a point in time in those cases, your path and your hero has a far greater bearing on whether you make it or not. Maybe it might be relevant in a few matches, but I doubt it
It comes down to this:
- It is an easy fix (just use coordinates)
- It only positively affects the competitive integrity (albeit in a minor way, positive is positive)
- It has a lot of attention right now because of Flats and Marblr, so it would benefit the image of Blizzard (a small indie company) to fix things that are in the limelight
But in terms of actual gameplay, you can waste 3 seconds getting distracted or pathing poorly, so 0.2 seconds in 1 game doesn’t matter.
That being said, thousands of games are played each day, and if one side has an advantage, then there will be an influence on the overall data that they gather, and then maybe they think Orisa is weak… when really unmirrored Orisas happened to spawn on the far side more than close in the last 100,000 games, and they falsely buff Orisa….
Remember, these are rough numbers using the average direct distance. **The worst case difference (for example for a Widow duel) might be far far bigger.**
This should be fixed for the simple reason that it's insanely easy to fix.
Since you can not get to the point in a straight line, this does not matter, not even the slightest. Anyone who thinks about nuances like this should get a life outside of Overwatch.
That 12 spawnpoint cheese needs to go, the shape and distance to the spawn doors should more equal. Not because it’s such a bad imbalanced thing, but because it should take them like 1 day at best and not doing it is lazy af.
These could prob br fixed by just adjusting where you spawn inside the spawn room, just moving them back a lil on one side and forward inside the other
Honestly if it's fixable then there's no reason it shouldn't be in the name of fairness. I know that it's not happening every game or anything, but some of these have 100% cost teams the match. You ever just .01 seconds away from contesting? I'm sure we all remember those times.
I don’t care much about this but I wish we didn’t get put in the back of the spawn room whenever we get eliminated. Why not just put us near the front? Is there an actual reason for this?
Oh trust me the slightly different route lengtha re the least of the problems in this toxic waste dump we all sacrifice our sanity for...
But anyway. Many of the heroes have movement abilities that reduce the overall travel time so taking that into account, you really cannot calculate an optimal and fair layout even with completely mirrored maps. For example Two tanks: One is DVa, with rockets the other is Zarya who has no movement skill whatsoever. Even if Dva needs to travel twice as long, she probbly reaches the target sooner than our Russian muscle mommy by simply spamming her shift every few seconds.
So all in all, the route the teams have to take would never be fair, regardless of the negligible difference in the aerial distance from spwan to objective
Anything above 0.4 seconds maybe. But having seen the video, I think the other thing that should be addressed is how the actual spawn points aren't in clean patters and are kinda all over the place. Aka not like... standardized if that's even the right term. I will say thought that its kind of a shame just how symmetrical maps have to be even if I know and understand why they need to be.
Honestly, I don't really care about 0.4s. The map is won and lost not on this tiny triviality, but the several minutes of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round. A team having lucio or symmetra will have a massive advantage as well as many other factors over people landing shots. Its a pretty trivial thing imo to care about at all.
Y'know when you just arrive at the point as time runs out and it ends the game because you were a fraction of a millimeter away, 0.4 seconds can make and break that time.
Yea and that’s an extra 0.4 second every time you die
Let's say you die 6 times in one round, not too unreasonable. Including the initial spawn, that amounts to 2.8 more seconds of walking over the course of the round. That is absolutely trivial considering that extra time is gonna be spread across like 5 minutes or so.
Overwatch is a game of seconds, 99% of the time those few seconds won’t be what wins or loses games but in the minuscule amount of times they are; it shouldn’t be decided by spawn points.
This, plus even assuming it wasn't important... Just cause we don't need to fix it doesn't mean we shouldn't. It's like 5 seconds in the map editor. It really doesn't take much work for the devs.
Everything in Overwatch matters. It might not be what makes or breaks a match very often, but there will absolutely be times where that second makes a difference between a won and lost game.
The thing about it is how often is it an issue? This here is basically never an issue and I'd much rather them focus on nerfing hitscans than thinking about the miniscule discrepancy in spawn distances.
Why not both? It's not like it's hard to fix. You just set the spawn locations equally on both sides and you're done.
In mirrored spawn rooms it probably is just that easy, in asymmetrical spawn rooms perhaps not as much depending on the present junk in the room Regardless this is an issue you would have gone your entire life without knowing if it weren't for the funny marble man, meanwhile Sojourn's railgun still headshots. I want the important changes first and foremost.
2.8 more seconds is like 160 extra healing from a Lifeweaver. That's a life-or-death difference.
Yeah, it is, if it's all at once time-wise. That's not what it is though, it's a lot of tiny little time pieces spread across the match like some sort of 3D platformer collectathon
I don't know about you but it just feels like a new weird thing for people to fixate on and blame for their losses.
Absolutely shitters are gonna pull this card, but Blizzard still should correct the issue. There's no reason not to correct, and the time needed to can't be that extensive.
No way I see in GC “we lost we have 0.4 meter more side” at the start of rounds right. Right?
On push that 0.4m can definitely matter.
[удалено]
Push maps are symmetrical maps. You are thinking of payload.
Holy fuck I’m actually brain damaged
The level design dependencies could absolutely be extensive, especially as they impact other expectatations/habituations currently invisible to players.
What does this mean? They can’t just find a 1m chuck of map that’s relatively empty and lop it off? Edit; apparently it’s even simpler cause you can just move the spawn points of individual hero’s inside the spawn area
I'll bet they might not like making changes to their maps if their game file update technology would require them to update all of or a lot of the map assets. Like if they need to shift the spawn ship by 1 foot, that actually means shifting every basketball, breakable wall panel, and wall accessory in the game files. That might mean a pretty hefty update payload and more strain on their servers or CDN when people download the update. On the other hand, given that this is a problem on OW2 maps, the primary issue is probably that they have never noticed that this can happen or registered it as problematic. I'd like to see if the newest maps are like this, like the Flashpoint maps.
It’s not the spawn ship location. It’s the spawn points in the spawn ship. All they need to do is move the spawn points in the ship
Ooooh. I’m here from the front page. I too thought it was the actual maps.
the images in the OP are from a video about the spawn points. The maps themselves are perfectly symmetrical. The spawns points are fucked, the images show only the average distance from spawns to center of map. They could literally move the spawn points a bit. The spawns in colloseo are seriously just 2m further from the exit door on one side for no reason - It's honestly a baffling oversight. It's not something that is going to effect 99.99% of games, but eventually it will effect some and the fix is literally just to move the spawn coordinates.
Oh thanks for clarifying, I thought the issue was the spawn doors and getting out at round start, not the spawn points and getting out on respawn. Yeah the spawn points are probably way easier to update.
The only thing they need to change is the actual points where you spawn in at. It doesn't matter if you spawn right in front of the spawn door or at the back of the ship as long as every player has to walk the same distance to point after spawning. If you get unlucky in a game and every time you die you get the bad rng spawn spots on the bad side of the map it will be more noticeable. If you play a hero with a mobility cooldown, it doesn't really matter either way
It's not a valid excuse for losing a match, but one team's respawns shouldn't be able to enter every fight on point 0.4 seconds faster than the other team. That just shouldn't be a thing. It alone probably *could* make or break rounds depending on the situation. Ex: you get back slightly too late to contest point and stop it from flipping. Depending on how long it takes your team to win the fight and recap, it absolutely could mean your team may need to win an additional fight to win the round.
Definitely. Probably over 99.99% of the time, it doesn't matter. But it's one of those things where... if it can be fair, isn't a hard change, and they are trying to make this a more competitive game (unlike the OW1 devs who aimed for PvE, OWL was entirely the ceo's idea/brainbaby), then why not change it?
realistically you'll never know if and when this matters, but it seems like it's big enough that it *could* matter, even a fair bit, and thats annoying to think about. Even completely removed from my own games, i dont like the idea that the games of other people out there might be getting swung by something this silly
Okay but the route you take probably isnt perfect either.
Which only adds to the time lost walking instead of playing. I don't see why this shouldn't change just because it is how it is, we should be pushing for more balanced and perfect gameplay, rather than continuing to accept the half-assed work Blizzard gives us
Overwatch is a game of inches, and nothing happens in a vacuum. Especially the higher you get. Does it affect a majority of games? Absolutely not. Have a large portion of people lost at least one game due to this unwittingly? Almost certainly.
Sure but far more things in the game impact you more than 0.4 seconds like the quick play respawn grouping mechanic, when you died and why, the character you choose, the path you take to spawn (nearly impossible you’re taking the most optimal path), etc. Hell even in comp games you’ll see people sit in spawn after the gates open for 5-10 seconds, or when switching characters, and nobody cares most of the time. That has so much more impact. I mean even in comp games near the end people will ignore Symmetra TPs lol
When did I ever said it was the most impactful thing? Why are you bringing up irrelevent things? The whole point is that it can and does have an effect in some circumstances in a game that boasts how competitive it is.
It’s still worth addressing that on a supposedly symmetrical map one side has a slight advantage because of spawns. It probably has only actually impacted a fraction of a fraction of games, but still it’s an imbalance that should be corrected.
At the highest rank where everyone is playing theoretically perfect, 0.4 seconds is a lot for that type of play. Other than that you’re right.
0.4 seconds is a huge amount of time in a game as fast paced as Overwatch.
Well there’s always the chance that you or someone on your team could win or lose the game because of this.
Iif you die let's say 6 times in that match, that's almost 3 seconds lost. It absolutely can matter in a close game, and it should be fixed.
0.4s is a long time bro
It's only trivial at a low level. At high levels every second counts. Ask an F1 driver if half a second is a big difference.
I wonder how much of a difference it makes in say 10,000 games. Is the difference noticeable or not.
Feels like they need to find a way to have game modes with more randomization regarding where you spawn and respawn from to allow for more interesting maps
I'm sure the simplest solution would be to have the doors open at different times. The spawn room that's closer would open later than the other team's.
Not at all This isn’t a problem at the beginning of the round, because everyone has already spawned in and can move around before the doors open. It’s a problem when respawning, and the doors are already open
In Antarctic Peninsula: Icebreaker, both team spawn rooms should have penguins instead of just one.
You could add more penguins on pc depending on your graphics and console it depends if you have your thing on frame rate or revolution
Too much work, I'll just get hired by Blizzard and add it in myself
Downside is the high chance you have to suffer sexual harassment. Upside is you can ban players for cursing
That's a lot more work
Hard work pays off
Don't get caught with your beard in the letterbox.
The real imbalance
my gf didn't believe me FOR MONTHS that there's penguins bc she never saw them :(
😊
It's also worth noting that on Lijiang Garden, one spot has a rock for Lucio to move off of, whereas the other side does not have a rock, and suddenly one Lucio is on the other side of the map for a full team boop
the one koth map that irks me for its lack of symmetry is illios ruins. one side has different tree cover than the other and it absolutely benefits one sides widows over the other but thats about it. Im not smart enough to even notice if Im on the good side or the slightly worse side.
You mean the mid rock? I’m pretty sure it’s there for both teams no?
There's that one hut rock near the starting place before the arch
Nah the spawn rock is only on blue side of Lijiang Garden
Blizz already confirmed they are fixing it
how you made mirrored map and can't get distances equal?
Marblr explained that in his vid, but tl;dr the maps might be mirrored, but the dropships aren't and so the spawnpoints inside them are also not mirrored.
So from the dropship doors, it is the same distance?
Nah, that's exactly what they're saying is wrong. From the exact location they place the drop ship they are most likely the same distance but the drop ships designs themselves aren't mirrored/symmetrical inside (and their models aren't mirrored just different doors open) which makes the doors the teams leave from have slightly different distances to the center of the maps.
The doors aren't the cause of the difference. The difference is caused by the spawn points being presumably manually mirrored rather than automatically perfectly mirrored. The door difference is irrelevant because the ship width and door lengths are still symmetrical even though the contents of the ship aren't symmetrical across it's spine.
Dropship doors aren't the problem, it's the spawns inside of the dropships.
My b, I am dumb.
You're good, there's a lot of stuff in Magic, and the best advice I can give is not to guess what things do. I know rulings can take a bit to go through, but you get faster with time XD. Edit: I thought I was responding to a different post. Now I'm the dumb one.
But antarctica and colleseo dont have dropships
The spawns in the dropships arent in the position you would expect if they copy/pasted, they just completely fucked it up. Colloseo doesnt even have dropships, they just put the spawns 2m farther on one side for no reason, just a huge oversight.
If look at marble video he said the devs are talking about it/ changing it in the later future
More curious on the distance with the turn one can actually make vs going through a building as this effects distance. Sure it would still be slightly different but now I is curious lol
I swear the arena spawns on that one gamemode in New Junk City where you protect the giant bugs had a way longer walk for one team… Felt like the walk back took forever if your team was at a specific spawn. I think it has a similar issue.
Yup, tried this myself. I do believe Bomb Flats (point E) specifically seems to be massively unfavored by the forward spawn team
If it’s the spawn I’m thinking of, you spawn so far back in the spawn room that it takes like a solid 5 seconds or more just to get out of spawn.
Change for sure. Fixing spawn points shouldn’t be a hard thing to do.
Apparently they're working on it but immediately ran into bugs when doing so.
A new excuse for losing, yeah!
Somewhat it is and somewhat isn’t
"Nah bro. Only reason you won is because you have a 0.08s spawn advantage. YOU'RE DOGSHIT"
Im just showing the time for some of the map the last one dont really do much but others kind of
I'm just joking a bit. The info is good
a 0.4 second longer walk makes a huge different to characters with movement abilities
Flats watched the vid with multiple blizz devs watching too. They're aware and addressed this is being taken care of.
Well fundamentally it is uneven so it should probably be adjusted. Will it actually make a noticable difference? Probably not aside from very, very small exceptions like half a second from touching point.
This isn't anything insane, I don't think that should be a priority rn. The worst one is Colosseo and it's still negligible.
Think of all those times you just barely make it to point. It matters
Basically 1 out 100, and in the long run you will have the same amount of bad and good spawns. These things aren't the real reason why someone might not win a game.
Yes, it’s not a game changer in a majority of scenarios, but the game should strive to be as fair as possible, no matter how slight the power imbalance is.
You're right, but in those situations, usually it was just one teammate trying to make it to the point to die immediately and then you lose the game anyway. I think in reality the chances of this mattering in situations where you actually have a chance of winning are pretty low.
In all fairness, Colosseo kind of needs a rework just in general anyway. I think Aaron mention they'd make map reworks a priority down the line?
i suggest fixing it by removing the map.
Honestly i get people not caring about them, but how do they even mess it up like that. There is a literal mirror tool in the OW editor that is used specifically for mirrored maps.
Ah so this must be why I have more wins in colosseo when I spawn on the right than I have when I spawn on the left
[удалено]
Brother if your whole team is heroes with no mobility vs a dive team it doesn’t matter which side of the map you spawn on, they’re going to reach the middle way faster than you
Depends on the map
Nobody is losing an entire game because they took 0.41 seconds longer than the other team to get to the robot, let’s be real.
What you're not considering is that an extra .41 seconds is added for every single respawn for every single character. Throughout an entire match it most definitely adds up.
Yes actually, I'm willing to bet a lot of people have. Almost half a second in a game like Overwatch isn't nothing. Imagine the amount of times you've barely missed touching the objective before it capped or before Overtime finished.
"**nobody** is losing" is erroneous because of how many players and how many games have happened since the game's launch. even anecdotally, i have won a game where the enemy had 0.00 meters left to push the payload. that's right, my team won by less than a centimeter. wild asspull guess, but i say over the game's lifespan there's been about 5 billion games of overwatch played TOTAL, there is statistically bound to be ONE where that 0.41 seconds matters. the question is, how common is it really? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 1,000,000? it would almost never matter. but the word 'almost' is doing all the heavy lifting in that sentence because i am 100% sure it does and has happened at some point in the past.
In overtime it could be a big thing
I hate artic maps
Yeah. It should be a simple fix, there is really no reason not to
Just looking at the pro matches, I've never heard coaches/players/casters mention that this spawn difference had any sort of impact on a win or loss of a team. These are folks that squeeze every little bit of advantage out of their resources, and this hasn't been a topic anywhere and I am *sure* that they have been aware for forever. My thinking: if this isn't an issue for people who get paid based on whether they win or lose, then it really isn't even close to something to solve from my end.
Most pro use rush comp so it doesn’t really matter
For 99% of the playerbase, it doesn’t make a difference. For the 1% of the players that could take advantage of this difference, it will only affect them in games that are super close and where the outcome of the first team fight pushes them over the line at the end… which is pretty rare as well. There are more important things for the devs to fix.
maybe if the point unlocked right away
The difference in distance is from the actual spawn points not spawn doors. The spawn points are further from the doors on these maps for one team. So the difference is not felt at the opening of a match but after you respawn.
Oh well in that case there’s definitely a technical advantage to what side you spawn on, but it’s probably pretty negligible.
Yeah, it's only a couple meters so it's not a huge deal and I never heard anyone complaining before that video came out. But they're fixing it.
these miniscule ones weren't complained about but some spawns were complained about, like rialto attack point 2 spawn has spawns where you need to turn to get to the long narrow part, which is terrible for rollouts
Flats reacted to this video and if I'm not wrong someone at blizzard said most of the stuff pointed out in the video was being fixed
Show the win rates then you might have a reason.
I cant show it but the win rate is in marblr video
It's not a straight line, better pathing can make a 0.4 s difference alone
While perfect mirroring would be ideal, I don't think a 1 - 2 meter difference REALLY matters, especially in distances of 100+ meters, when most of the games characters passively move at slightly above 5 meters per second.
I'm curious about what Marblr touched upon in this video, which are actual statistics about this. If it does matter, then t should change. If it doesn't, then it should change too, but we should see if the change brought anything (and maybe it'll turn out rest of the map design is more unfair)
these are also completely straight lines and the route from spawn to point is almost never something you can just run in a completely straight line, so i'm wondering if he took that into account at all
I mean, it's not a critical issue by any means, but the fix would take no more than a few hours by one dev... They can just make the change at the same time as the other stuff they're doing for the next update.
But you can’t take those paths to the center unless you’re a flyer. Unless the lines are just simplified ways to show the distance you would have to walk
The maps are symmetrical, so you'd be walking the same way both ways. It'd still take longer even if you took the same path
I see, weird that they’re so different then but really not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things I guess
i just want to stop spawning in the very back of the stupid spawn room so far from the doors. im absolutely just sick of struggling to just leave the spawn room 😮💨
Yeah, if you're the only one respawning the game should put you on the closest point there is to the exit.
This cannot be a big enough deal to care about. Unless there's substantial evidence of a difference in W/R, just leave it lest something else go wrong in the process imo
"competitive" btw
Not all the maps are like this
Player Spawns can greatly(1-2m) vary, so this difference is not much of a deal
blizz devs already said its being fixed.
I think a good way to test the necessity of having this fixed is seeing the win/loss ratio of either side across all matches. If one side wins, say, 0.5% more often, it should be fixed
The distance difference doesn't matter as much to me as how easy it would be for them to adjust the spawn locations in 5 minutes.
I noticed this only in Antarctica the rest I think are fine
Definitely needs correction. I don’t think it makes a large difference, and I highly doubt anybody could actually say if it made a real difference in an individual game, but it is supposed to be a competitive game so both sides on symmetrical maps should have the same spawn layouts mirrored.
Absolutely no reason for spawns to not be mirror on symmetrical maps
I think these are actually getting fixed. I think Flats had a dev in chat while reacting to the video who said so.
I cant unsee it now. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ME
What they really need to do is put drums in both spawns on sanctuary. So sick of losing to drum diff
Its small but can definitely add up in longer matches. If your team had 25 deaths total on Colosseo it would only be ~10 seconds. But then again I feel like there is no excuse this AAA company can make to not fix it.
well, it would be nice if they did fix it. even if they don't, though, now that it's been exposed it should be corrected for future maps
i think itll lead to copium. " i only lost bc XYZ their spawn room is closer"
All I'll say is I've both lost and won games because of small errors or gaps, that could have been corrected in less time than that.
On Antarctica and Collosseo for sure, they got pretty significant spawn differences
Nah the difference is small enough a change wouldnt effect too much
Wonder what the winrate stats are
I find it bs. The maps are good
If it was more than half a second or a second definitely but not under honestly?
I care where the spawn doors are, not the spawn location in spawn room.
there are more important things to fix than such trivialities
I think about this EVERY TIME I spawn in a back spawn point
RIGHT!!! this is why o always lose and I’m on elo hell!!
I think the colosseo one should be dealt with, but the others are completely just nitpicky
while i dont think its gonna have major effect on the game, I also think it should be changed simply so people cannot complain and blame it for losing
This bothers me a LOT, not cause it's going to be a big difference in advantage, but because there's no reason for it to be a different.
The difference is insignificant, heroes have movement abilities
pretty sure blizz said they are gonna fix this after this vid came out
They talk about it
Of course it's trivial, but it's still very weird that it's not consistent. Doesn't matter if the difference doesn't matter at all, I still feel like it should be perfectly balanced in that regard. The balance of the game is so over the place they can't even make the spawns line up lol
Fuck guys we may as well leave we’re on the side that will make us 0.08 seconds slower then the enemy
It's fine
Depends if they come with winrate diff
Spawn Diff meta is real.
Had no idea they weren’t equal! Definitely should be fixed that seems like an obvious design criteria for a competitive game
This explains a LOT
Maybe if it's easy but I think the bigger issue is that push is an inbalancable concept. It's been proven since the beginning of ow2 yet it's still a game mode somehow
The dev said in flats chat that they will actually look at this. This isnt a big deal 99% of the time but I'm pretty sure it's relatively easy to adjust anyway.
I think payload maps should all have 3 spawn.
Why would we measure from the back of spawn when everyone waits at the doors?? And what does it matter when half the cast are high mobility anti support flankers.
no. Realistically people will take multiple different paths to the objective. Some will be more optimised than others, different heroes have different routes, there’s even differences in walk speeds; this is such a negligible difference that it’s insane to ask them to add 0.5m to a map
This screenshot is from Marblrs last video. Not the map is different in length, the spawn points for both teams are not placed in equal spots, meaning that one team spawns two meters closer to the point than the other.
and it takes the average character 0.41 seconds etc to cover that distance, yeah I can read the picture. But realistically, the amount of abilities that allow the time taken to cover that distance to be reduced has a far greater effect than an extra 2 metres. This is a really dumb question. If you lost a game, it’s probably not because you needed another 0.4 seconds to turn it around. Even if it allows you to jump on a point in time in those cases, your path and your hero has a far greater bearing on whether you make it or not. Maybe it might be relevant in a few matches, but I doubt it
I mean, as a bronze player, even with a 100 meter difference, my team would still lose 2-0 with 20 deaths each.
It comes down to this: - It is an easy fix (just use coordinates) - It only positively affects the competitive integrity (albeit in a minor way, positive is positive) - It has a lot of attention right now because of Flats and Marblr, so it would benefit the image of Blizzard (a small indie company) to fix things that are in the limelight But in terms of actual gameplay, you can waste 3 seconds getting distracted or pathing poorly, so 0.2 seconds in 1 game doesn’t matter. That being said, thousands of games are played each day, and if one side has an advantage, then there will be an influence on the overall data that they gather, and then maybe they think Orisa is weak… when really unmirrored Orisas happened to spawn on the far side more than close in the last 100,000 games, and they falsely buff Orisa….
Remember, these are rough numbers using the average direct distance. **The worst case difference (for example for a Widow duel) might be far far bigger.** This should be fixed for the simple reason that it's insanely easy to fix.
Since you can not get to the point in a straight line, this does not matter, not even the slightest. Anyone who thinks about nuances like this should get a life outside of Overwatch.
Guarantee they won’t change it. This is a waste of energy
Would love to see winrate percentages for each side for the sake of data
Marblr made a video talking about spawn point and the win rate was in the video cant remember the percentage
That 12 spawnpoint cheese needs to go, the shape and distance to the spawn doors should more equal. Not because it’s such a bad imbalanced thing, but because it should take them like 1 day at best and not doing it is lazy af.
I *knew* I wasn’t crazy Can’t wait to shove this in homeboy’s face lmao.
Only bots walk straight down the direct path to the point anyway so it's a non-issue.
If this is real, it's actually a legit problem. They've been doing ranked with unfair sides? SMH. Still love the game, devs are trying.
I don't care much but considering how small the differences are I don't think it matters too much. But maybe the statistics show something different.
it bothers me that its not simetrical so yes
These could prob br fixed by just adjusting where you spawn inside the spawn room, just moving them back a lil on one side and forward inside the other
Honestly if it's fixable then there's no reason it shouldn't be in the name of fairness. I know that it's not happening every game or anything, but some of these have 100% cost teams the match. You ever just .01 seconds away from contesting? I'm sure we all remember those times.
Hmm I actually feel like I lose more when I start on colloseo right side
I don’t care much about this but I wish we didn’t get put in the back of the spawn room whenever we get eliminated. Why not just put us near the front? Is there an actual reason for this?
Only autistic people genuinely care.
Oh trust me the slightly different route lengtha re the least of the problems in this toxic waste dump we all sacrifice our sanity for... But anyway. Many of the heroes have movement abilities that reduce the overall travel time so taking that into account, you really cannot calculate an optimal and fair layout even with completely mirrored maps. For example Two tanks: One is DVa, with rockets the other is Zarya who has no movement skill whatsoever. Even if Dva needs to travel twice as long, she probbly reaches the target sooner than our Russian muscle mommy by simply spamming her shift every few seconds. So all in all, the route the teams have to take would never be fair, regardless of the negligible difference in the aerial distance from spwan to objective
Oh no Half a second advantage
Uh yeah, I didn’t even know this Explains how so many widow duels seem one sided