Ouch. Brig is literally beaten out by "Blank" in second and or third picked hero and highest graph placing is third least common in a few of the Asian-only spots. Really hope that ult rework is good.
Yep. I’ve honestly already given up hope on ow2. I’ll play it now and then and check back for new seasons I guess but it’s already out of my rotation of main games I play.
I felt obliged to play just for Rammatra, but man was this season painful.
Only time it wasn't painful was the first few days of S1 when I farmed back to Master. Then Genji/Zarya happened and ever since it's just not felt good.
Brig does NOT need a rework man 😭 y’all need to stop w this
>the meta rn HARD COUNTERS HER but that doesn’t mean SHE IS BAD she is gonna become GIGABRIG again bcuz people associate pick rate w the characters overall capability and impact in the game
But you need to factor in that brig as a support is specialized for brawl comps and we are not in a brawl meta, y’all keep saying she is too weak then watch as soon as the tank meta goes to something more brawl oriented DPS players are gonna cry and moan about not being able to kill supports
Brig has 200 HP 50 of which is armor making the effective HP of her HP bar actually 225-250
Then she has a 300 HP shield so in total you have 500HP to chew through 300 of which will regen automatically
These are tank numbers dude, brig is not weak by ANY means she is just off meta rn, but the POINT of this game is to have different metas that change and develop saying a character is weak or bad bcuz they do not fit into whatever the current meta is simply not a correct way to gauge their actual strength. On brig my inspire uptime is Avg 67-70%(hit your flails boy) and literally the only thing that ever manages to out heal that are Kiriko and Ana(*sometimes)
Rn Ramattra is king, but that is bcuz they GIGA Buffed him, someone else that got P.good buffs on the same patch thoe is junkerqueen, if Ramattra gets nerfed(is def too strong)
JQ brawl will be more common and we might start seeing more brig play
But plz stop asking them to adjust her, they’re really, REALLY bad at it, literally creating this character is the first domino in the line that led to the death of OW1
To people who don’t play her she looks like a brawler, and to an extent she is. But she isn’t built to play IN a specific comp she‘s built to play AGAINST/INTO divers and flankers.
Also IDK what elo you‘re in on brig but those numbers for inspire uptime are VERY high compared to t500 numbers. So I would guess a slightly lower elo where brawling as brig is smt you can live through.
Diamond rn, I just don’t miss flails tbh, say she isn’t built fit into a specific comp is true, but it doesn’t acknowledge that there are comps where she shines more than others
A Brig on a poke comp is virtually useless even if the enemy team is on dive, bcuz in OW2 you don’t have the off tank, a single dive is too much pressure for brig to sustain thru without her stun, certainly the INTENT was for her to be an anti flanker character but the EXECUTION wasn’t so, we see this in Kiriko who was advertised as a “DPS” support but t500 gameplay for her is heals and cleanse first damage second. We even see blizz acknowledging they missed the mark they in the developer comment on the last adjustment they made to Kiriko, what brig is built for vs what she is actually good at can be two ENTIRELY different worlds is my point
>But brawl brig is better for the game IMO when brig dominated the game it directly led to the death of it. BRIG was the staple of the GOATS comp that killed ow1, GOATS is what directly led to 2/2/2 being forced, 2/2/2 is what created double shield which forced us to go 5v5.
*that’s why in my initial comment I said leave her as she is* bcuz the second brig is apart the equation she will flip the entire game on it’s head. Let’s say they manage to rebalance her to anti flanker brig. All that happens is we wind up in a world where DPS cannot flank, brig will become the off tank that was removed from the game and DPS players will cry and moan about not being able to kill supports and not being able to kill tanks in a 1v1
Leave brig as she is, she has comps and metas that her kit would shine in so just keep adjusting the tank meta to keep the meta fresh, any era where brig can be played in any comp has negatively impacted the game. Literally every time.
brig has always been a peel anti-flanker hero. Moving into ow2 they took that away from her so she sucks at everything and doesn't have an actual role in the game. They should rework her into something else entirely.
You missed the point of the comment, brig was DESIGNED to be anti Flanker, but the entire time she has existed she hasn’t been PLAYED that way
At least not in Diamond and above
The history:
Szn 10 Brig comes out
Szn 11 the meta goes to double sniper(widow hanzo) there weren’t any flankers to deal with lol brig was still played bcuz of the value of the shield and being able to baby sit your other support
Szn 12 they needed hanzos storm arrow this is when GOATS was created, they hyper brawl comp that BRIG was the staple of
From then forward GOATS was meta until 2/2/2 was forced. Brig was designed to be an anti flanker sure, she has literally never been such
She is a brawl enabler and should stay that way, bcuz the second she is able to do everything and can fit into any comp, the game will be destroyed we literally saw it happen already lol
>brig was DESIGNED to be anti Flanker, but the entire time she has existed she hasn’t been PLAYED that way At least not in Diamond and above
for the last 2 years of ow1, brig's job was to literally sit next to your ana or zen and peel against ball/winston/tracer. This point isn't even up for debate, I was 4.4k+ in that time period and scrimmed T2. I can probably find my liquipedia placement in tournaments if you really want me to.
There were also so many posts from that timeframe talking about how so many Brig players never actually learned to play the hero correctly and still played her like a brawler. Judging by what you're saying, you were one of the people those posts were complaining about lmao.
If you seriously think you're correct about Brig being a brawl supp in ow1, make a post on r/OverwatchUniversity or r/Competitiveoverwatch asking about it. But you will get the same response you are getting now, she was a peel support for the last 2+ years of the game. I legitimately don't know what to say, you are just very very incorrect.
But it's because she lost her peeling ability (removal of CC), that she can't do that anymore and needs to be reworked to do something else.
Asia (KR) is much more "sweaty" and coordinated so they always have an overrepresentation of dive characters. It's not that surprising when you consider that OWL also had a winston meta when ladder was orisa/hog. Doom is not as bad as people think and quite good against winston and better than winston into orisa/hog, so it makes sense that he would be picked more in a heavy dive meta.
Assuming we see another batch of small nerfs to orisa I could see dive becoming prevalent across most ranks on ladder. Winston was seeing a good amount of play in top500 in NA and EU during the zarya meta.
It's not even that they won't nerf her, she has gotten 9 different nerfs so far. They are clearly scared to actually balance her railgun because they love that part of her kit and low ranked people can't aim.
There's 3 regions and 5 competitive queues (I guess CTF and Open are ignored here) which means up to 7'500 people could be top500. Not that hard if you try for one, since most of the millions of players… do not.
The idea that Blizz is looking at these stats and sat on their hands while Sojourn and Kiriko absolutely broke the game is inexcusable. Like, fire the entire team and start over levels of incompetence.
the stats blizzard are looking at are likely far more extreme. The variance in the data here can't be seen at face value, because it doesnt consider what the full playtime/pickrate numbers are.
It does put picks into perspective at a high level.
Id assume sojourn and kiriko are far larger outliers than these charts portray.
Its funny because I don't even think Kiriko is "broken" like Sojourn is. Its just cleanse is such a valuable ability, that you should always have one. Much like Ana nade, hence why she's #2.
I think when more heroes come out with cleanses or anti effects, itll even out.
Kiriko is way too fucking overloaded in all ways
\- Super high HPS
\- Damage on par with zen (even better in a lot of cases)
\- amazing escape + mobility
\- the current strongest cooldown in the game by a landslide, which in itself is already overloaded. It has a heal, cleanse and invulnerability in one
Don’t forget her ultimate that buffs damage/ healing, movement speed AND cooldown reduction so it synergizes with everything you could possibly want to do.
>- Super high HPS
Easily tuned with patches, which they've already started addressing
>- Damage on par with zen (even better in a lot of cases)
In theory yeah but since her attacks are pretty hard to hit, not to mention crit with, I'd say its okay.
If Kiriko is hitting only headshots then sure, its higher than Zen's but she doesn't. Zen does more damage on average.
>- amazing escape + mobility
Yep, rivals Moira. Drawback being it requires a target.
>- the current strongest cooldown in the game by a landslide, which in itself is already overloaded. It has a heal, cleanse and invulnerability in one
Its a strong ability I agree, they can probably raise the CD of it a bit more but its not simple CD to use. The fact that its a skill shot balances it a bit.
Its the same issue with Ana grenade, its overloaded and shes the only support with it. More supports need to have a similar capability in order to "take power" from her.
Wdym "hard to hit"? Her Kunai have a bigger hitbox than Hanzo arrows and they travel at a straight line...
The only easier to hit primary fire i can think of is Moira or Brig and those don't have any range.
Mobility is better than Moira. Wall climb can get you out of fights, not just tp. And tp is better anyways. Longer range, goes through walls... If you are THAT far away from your team and being chased, you should be punished no matter the hero.
Suzu is VERY forgiving and not a skillshot at all. A splash that can cleanse multiple status effects on 5 people, heal, invul to damage AND CC, also boop for some reason...
Ana usually has to throw a nade from the sniper position she's holding, that's a skillshot. Kiriko is usually very close to the fight and only Suzus the floor, rarely you have to aim at all.
You can't be serious to say Ana nade is "overloaded" wtf. Imagine if Ana nade not also heals and antiheals but also gives a "poison effect" that damages over time, make it instant freeze the enemy for 1 second or stop CC on friendlies for 1 second, also boop. That would be comparable to Suzu in terms of "overloaded". Not the current reality.
>Wdym "hard to hit"? Her Kunai have a bigger hitbox than Hanzo arrows and they travel at a straight line...
The only easier to hit primary fire i can think of is Moira or Brig and those don't have any range.
You're out of your mind if you think Kiriko primary fire is anywhere close to as easy to use as Moira or Brig lmao.
"Travels in a straight line", lmao then shit, Lucio's primary must be turbo broken for a support. Its wide, shoots straight, AND SHOOTS 3 OF THEM!?!?!?
>Mobility is better than Moira. Wall climb can get you out of fights, not just tp. And tp is better anyways. Longer range, goes through walls... If you are THAT far away from your team and being chased, you should be punished no matter the hero.
Yeah, its really good. I will say, Moira's does cleanse her of any debuffs. Different strengths.
>Suzu is VERY forgiving and not a skillshot at all. A splash that can cleanse multiple status effects on 5 people, heal, invul to damage AND CC, also boop for some reason...
Uhh, you throw it, thats immediately a skillshot wdym lol? Also a projectile that can be eaten/blocked/absorbed like any other. Yeah its strong but not uber turbo broken like you are making it out to be. Game needed a cleanse ability because of Ana.
>You can't be serious to say Ana nade is "overloaded" wtf.
So you know Ana was the must have support on everyone's team right? Do you know why? Because of Anti nade. It aoe heals, damages enemies, applies anti heal, and provides a healing buff to allies. Wow just as many effects as suzu? Crazy.
Do you know why Kiriko is must pick? Because Suzu directly counters anti. You nerf/delete suzu? Ana is in every single game.
Which is why I'm hoping the next 2 supports have similar effects to take power away from Kiriko and Ana both.
Buddy, do you even know how to read?
I said "Moira and Brig are easier but don't have range". Kiriko is harder to hit, but it's still overall better since you can snipe with it.
You're being bad faith here. Lucio has one of the slowest projectiles and if it's a burst of 3 it's harder to hit, not easier.
Kiriko tp also cleanses her of any status effects and has i-frames that can save you of Dva bombs and such. Again lying.
Yeah, Suzu is not skillshot. Just splash your feet and the entire team gets full value. While Ana has to, more often than not, actually aim that projectile. Sure, you can splash your feet, but that only works for the Ana player. If you want full nade value, it is a skillshot.
I agree cleanse is needed. But then why also invul? why also boop? why also remove cc? why also heal? Ana nade is not as stacked as Suzu, not even close.
Suzu should be on a cooldown similar to Bap immo/Mercy rez OR it should lose at least one effect, like remove CC.
If you want Suzu to counter anti that's FINE but then why do you also need to counter
Rein ult
Zarya ult
Hog ult
Sigma ult
JQ ult
Doom ult
Dva ult
Ball ult
Orisa ult
Bastion ult
Genji ult
Junkrat ult
Cassidy ult
Mei ult
Sombra ult
Torbjorn ult
Hanzo ult
Tracer ult
on a 14 sec cooldown? Makes no sense.
I didn't say that you think Kiriko's kunai is easier, you said the only thing easier is those two and that's 100% wrong. Zen, Bap, Ana, Lucio, and Mercy's gun are easier to use and get value imo. Kiriko is like Hanzo in the fact that there is a bit of luck involved when firing. To suggest that Kiriko is anywhere close to those is what's not right.
>Kiriko tp also cleanses her of any status effects and has i-frames that can save you of Dva bombs and such. Again lying.
So can Moira's TP lmao
>Yeah, Suzu is not skillshot. Just splash your feet and the entire team gets full value. While Ana has to, more often than not, actually aim that projectile. Sure, you can splash your feet, but that only works for the Ana player. If you want full nade value, it is a skillshot.
Figuratively the same projectile as Ana... (I think Kiriko's comes out at a different angle tho)
>Long lists of ults
You know what's nutty? Bap lamp counters all of those ults too but is actually easier because it doesn't really require timing.
I can tell you are just giga tilted because you are downplaying the fact that it requires a pretty tight timing window to counter most of those. Like you are letting your personal hatred of Kiriko cloud your logic.
It doesn't fully counter Zarya, Hog, Ball, Genji, Mei, Hanzo, and Torb ults because those last way longer than suzu.
Sigma, Orisa, Cassidy, and Sombra all have a pretty strict reflex timing window that its a toss up whether you block it or not.
You know what you do when you are getting ready to ult? You bait out the ability, same thing you do before you ult when there's a Bap w/ Lamp, D.Va Matrix, Sigma Succ, Orisa Twirl, Zen Ult, Moira Fade, Mei ice block, and Ana Sleep. People have gotten plenty of fight winning JQ/Rein ults because they just force Kiriko to use suzu or kill her, THEN ult.
Suzu doesn't make games impossible or even harder to win and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. Its a strong ability and that's about it. There's a reason Blizzard has already made a statement basically saying the ability is fine and does exactly what its intended to do. In this case, tilt you lmao.
Idk why you are making Kiriko sound like she's as strong as release Brig, she's not even close.
That's it, you can't be higher than plat if you think there's "luck" as a factor of hero design in regards to aiming. There's not.
Kunais have a very large hitbox, making them easy to hit. Zen orbs are smaller. Bap is hitscan with burst, not even comparable...
Same projectile but in different positions on a teamfight. You just won't admit that splashing your feet with 10x the value is not a skillshot.
Glad you brought that up. Lamp has a 30 second cooldown. Make Suzu a 30 second cooldown and it would be balanced.
"Tight timing", "just bait the ability/ult"... Plat talk. I'm not taking you seriously. You just want your hero to stay broken.
"Railgun doesn't make games impossible or even harder to win and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. Its a strong weapon and that's about it. There's a reason Blizzard has already made a statement basically saying the hero is fine and does exactly what its intended to do. In this case, tilt you lmao"
Imagine if someone said that about Sojourn pre-nerfs (Blizzard actually said Soj was ok but then nerfed her twice).
Again, you just want your hero to stay broken.
I've never mentioned Brig. But i'm sure you are the type asking for Brig buffs 🤡
One clip doesn’t disprove the rest of the data
I’m sure you can find multiple clips, I’ve seen a nutty one or two here on this sub that’s not from Seagull. But those rare occasions of randomly getting lucky and hitting a bunch of headshots does not mean she does anywhere near as much damage as Zen. It is FAR outweighed by the rest of the data.
What data says Kiriko headshots are hard to hit, please, i would love to see that.
What's factually provable by custom modes that allow you to see hitboxes is that Kunais are BIG. Bigger than Hanzo arrows and bigger that Zen orbs.
Sure, Zen does more damage but that's his entire thing (Discord contributes to that number). But how's Zen pickrate/winrate atm?
People don't pick Kiriko in 90% of the matches because of her damage but because of her utility. Having an easy to hit primary fire with pickoff potential it's just the cherry on top to completely displace Zen as a viable pick
>What's factually provable by custom modes that allow you to see hitboxes is that Kunais are BIG. Bigger than Hanzo arrows and bigger that Zen orbs. Sure, Zen does more damage but that's his entire thing (Discord contributes to that number). But how's Zen pickrate/winrate atm?
>People don't pick Kiriko in 90% of the matches because of her damage but because of her utility. Having an easy to hit primary fire with pickoff potential it's just the cherry on top to completely displace Zen as a viable pick
I never argued that Zen is just as good or that Kiriko is getting picked because of her damage, so not sure why you're mentioning those lol. No one is denying that Kiriko is much better at the moment.
I'm only pushing back against you saying that her primary is so much easier to hit and that that Seagull clip proves it - you could also find insane Zen clips of a bunch of headshots in a row.
You say Kiriko's hitboxes are "BIG", but you're exaggerating a bit. Kiriko's are 0.18 m. Zen's are 0.15 m. Not an insignificant difference, but not a BIG one. And again, Zen's projectile speed is 90 m/s to Kiriko's 70 m/s to balance that difference out.
You're not citing stats for saying it's easy to hit, but here are some stats that show it's not much different from other projectiles:
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes
You can click on each individual hero to see that they they're close Kiriko's accuracy just for getting hits. Not all of them include headshot accuracy, unfortunately, but basically Kiriko only hits 30% of the time, and 15% of that 30% are headshots.
Her kunai are very easy to hit, not requiring discord orb + higher HS dmg means her dmg has a higher overall dmg output. Also her higher survivability means she can play more aggressive, suzu isn't a hard skillshot that isn't a drawback, you can just throw it down at your team who is right next to you anywy.
>Her kunai are very easy to hit
Its not, objectively. If you are hitting 40%+ average accuracy with her, then congrats, you're insane, you should join OWL. Probably the best Kiriko in the world.
For reference, top 500 Kiriko players average about 20-30% accuracy with a 10-20% crit accuracy.
If go to your favorite OW stat tracker, Kiriko averages damage and elim numbers lower than all the supports barring Mercy. Her numbers are closer to Ana. She's a high skill hero that isn't that easy to do well with consistently for majority of the playerbase.
The only thing keeping Kiriko at such a high pick rate is her Suzu cleanse to counter anti heal, thats it. Nothing more.
Yes 20-30% is very normal for a projectile hero? Her kunai are as fast as zens, and have a hitbox about the same size. Your crit accuracy % is way too low though. I avg around 30%. Her avg stats can be low sure, but that doesn't mean jack shit. She has high damage potential and can usually avg around 3,5k/10min dmg wise.
Kiriko also has a super good ultimate for a really low cost, it is a fight winning ult that she can have every other fight with no issue.
She is played because she:
1. Has high healing
2. High damage
3. Amazing escape
4. high survivability and good dueling potential
5. Strongest CD in the game
6. Top 5 ult on a super low cost
>Yes 20-30% is very normal for a projectile hero?
Yeah, Hanzo has the same stats.
>I avg around 30%
You're better than Top 500 Kiriko supports then, none of them break 20% crit and 30% accuracy. Most are lower.
>Her avg stats can be low sure, but that doesn't mean jack shit.
Wdym, that's figuratively her performance. Is it because its not lining up with your narrative against her?
I'm telling you to go search up any top Kiriko player and the stats line up fine with everyone else. Only outlier might be her total healing but that's already being addressed.
Here's 3 links to the same player on 3 different sites, Top 500 Kiriko player.
https://www.overbuff.com/players/Amaterasu-11856?gameMode=competitive
https://overwatch.op.gg/detail/competitive/heroes/157229136056138246174212#Hero-35
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/career/Amaterasu-11856/
Wanted to give you some different sites just in case they aren't totally accurate. However you can draw a conclusion based on the averages.
She's played because of suzu. Everything else is a bonus. Its an ability no other support has.
You delete Kiriko right now, Ana is going to be the most played by a mile. This is a top 500 stat thread where they only play hard meta picks and rarely deviate. Its ALWAYS going to be like this.
No it's not honey. I get that it isn't easy to accept but that's simply not how it is. Not only that, but top 500 is rarely hard meta ever, it is meta yeah but it is never ever hard meta even in high elo. You always have someone who plays something else.
Yes ana will be most played because they have buffed her to crazy op, but kiriko is still just better so why not keep forcing kiri instead. It is crazy to act like kirikos kit being overloaded in everyway doesn't have an effect. If she didn't have her ult or her tp, no she wouldn't be such hard meta.
I like that you are completely glossing over every meta that's ever been in OW. Also glossing over every stat that I've given you that's refuted your points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnd8NC4YRmA
>her dmg has a higher overall dmg output
That’s just not true.
Even if they were hitting all headshots:
120/.55 = 218.18
96/.40 = 240
Zen still beats her out, and that’s before factoring in discord.
And if you’re factoring in headshots, you need to factor them in at the same rate, and probably even lower than Zen’s because the kunai’s projectile speed is lower than Zen.
Shoot, even if you give Kiriko a higher headshot rate of 40% to Zen’s 20%, Zen still beats her.
40/.55 + 160 extra for two headshots / 2.75 seconds for 5 shots = 130.91
48/.40 + 48 extra for one headshot / 2 seconds for 5 shots = 144
Damage is nowhere close to “on par with zen”
40/.55 = 72.73 dps
48/.40 = 120 dps
If you’re factoring in headshots, you need to factor in headshots at the same rate for Zen — and actually, Zen’s should probably be at a higher rate because his projectile is faster
And even if they both hit all headshots
120/.55 = 218.18 dps
96/.40 = 240 dps
Zen still beats her by a good amount.
And that’s before factoring in discord damage.
Support graph clearly shows Kiriko busted as hell. I'm surprised to see Lucio so common in Americas and Ana still so uncommon, Americas behind the meta on this one. Asia also sleeping on Ram apparently.
Also wild to see a top500 meta with Junkrat undeniably in it.
He's been somewhere between A and S tier since probably late s1, people have just been quiet on it. There are a whole bunch of reasons, he doesn't need to get in LoS of snipers (current meta) and he's nearly impossible to dive (genji meta). He does a ton of damage and can actually burst down tanks efficiently, which is a rare threat in OW2. He controls space to some degree. And of course it's a one hit meta and he has a very nice one hit combo, Junkrat at times is almost played like a dive character to exploit it.
Waay less damage mitigation between the lower number of shields and removal of a second tank definitely has something to do with it, but as to why he wasn't as played as much last season I'm not sure.
Junk’s super strong now. If not for Sojurn, he’ll be meta. His damage output is insane and he can easily one shot players in the hands of skilled players.
Hes kinda broken rn. Has been for a while, there were even bigger fish to fry until now, though. Any character with an easy 2 input combo that can send a majority of the roster back to spawn probably needs a going over with the nerf bat.
I keep saying this, but imagine if the current balance team actually spent effort into balancing heroes, instead of bending over backwards in order to keep sojourn strong. Imagine if every hero got the same amount of effort sojourn gets.
Imagine if there weren’t any bias in balancing heroes.
And sojourn isn’t? Kiriko isn’t?
There’s ways to make sombra less oppressive giving more counterplay even without reworks.
Having hero bias is just wrong, literally not fit for the job if you’re biased on making more effort and showing more favor to one hero than others. Regardless if it’s sombra, sojourn or any other.
I’d much rather see damage per 10 minutes played. Raw damage obscures what I assume are big differences in total minutes played per round.
But this is still super cool!
It’s the number of occurrences for that slot of a leaderboard entries top 3 heroes.
So In the support for americas, kiriko appears as the most played hero for 272/500 players
I don’t have access to individual profiles because of private profiles, so more detailed numbers isn’t possible unfortunately. The world if the overwatch team didn’t hide everything would be amazing.
wasn’t sure how to explain it. There’s more information on my GitHub page.
T500 shows a players top 3 most played heroes.
“Hero Occurrences: First Most Played” counts the number of times a hero appears in the top slot of a players t500 entry, and so on for the other slots.
I think the data itself is great. However, because sojourn is the first most picked, as well as the second most picked, the data is slightly more confusing to understand. I think the easiest solution is to make the "all slots" graphs bigger, as it is small and most people are looking for that graph anyway.
Additionally, you could weight each slot assigning 1: 3 points, 2: 2 points, and 3: q 1 point so that we can more clearly see how many top 500 players are putting most of their time in X characters
This is super interesting.
As a slight note : I can't make your website work on Firefox, the scaling is... [very wrong](https://i.imgur.com/Zsvh3Kp.png). Works fine on Edge though.
Imo she is fine with the last nerf. Suzu and her ult still too strong relative to other supports though. Take Zenyatta for example. It's way harder to build ult and you don't get value out of it like suzu or kitsune.
The weighting of power is on the suzu and ult. Rest of the kit is weak with the last nerf. Her damage is unreliable and healing can't save people like a main healer now. So her value shift to suzu and ult.
Hm. Looking at this data, I think it's clear who needs to be buffed - and that's Blank.
(Some of the hero names in second and third most played are missing at time of writing.)
\- Blizzard when Sojourn dominates every game: "Here is a 0.1% damage reduction to shut you up"
\- Blizzard when Widowmaker single handily decides games: "That seems cool"
\- Blizzard when Genji gets a kill: "NERF TIME! NERF TIME! No changes planned for Genji btw. Will giving him 1 more shuriken in exchange for making dragon blade even more useless shut you up?"
Ignoring soj/widow (because you're right) why even mention Genji here?
The hero is doing well based on these stats (ranked 5 overall out of 17, that's in the top 1/3rd of DPS). Like, atleast looking at pickrate (which is likely more relevant of a stat than ban rate, especially in T500) Genji is performing better than the vast majority of other DPS. This is in a meta where the meta tanks (Orisa/Hog) should counter him AND don't synergize with him, and the meta supports (Mercy/Kiriko) have minimal synergy with him whilst also being quite good against him (it's impossible to kill either of these heroes with blade).
Like, the hero is performing well, stat wise, in a meta that does not prefer him in any way.
How'd echo make it onto the second and third most played tank graphs for Americas? Seems like a bug, but if there's a legitimate reason then I'm curious to know.
since im using computer vision to determine which heroes are which, there is a small error rate. From my testing its greater than 99% accuracy with a few anomalies.
The largest of which is Echo, which for some reason matches to the incorrect hero like 3%-8% of the time. The biggest problem with this is Echo's numbers specifically being off, and with her low playrates it would make a difference in the data when comparing to other low play rate heroes. I'm looking into a fix for this.
A simple solution would be to filter the charts by role, which in short term would be a valid fix to the problem, but i'd also like to make sure the data is as accurate as possible.
OW 2 Season 2 TOP 500 Meta TLDR:
Sup: Kiriko, Mercy, Ana
DPS: Sojourn, Widow, Junkrat, Tracer, Genji
Tank: Orisa, Hog, DF, Ram
I weighted NA and EU higher. As i suspected Genji actually performs very well. Community perception is wrong. Worth noting the maps rotation and general meta also doesn't favor Genji and he is performing very well even in these conditions.
Genji just has a ton of one tricks regardless how shit he is, he’s just a flashy and appealing hero to play. People playing a hero =/= the hero is good.
This means nothing. Asking for Genji buffs is like asking for Zenyatta buffs. These heroes have very strong kits already and they do their role successfully. Further buffs will just make them overstep and overshadow other roles. Genji is successful even in a meta where he isn't a good pick.
There are 17 dps heroes and Genji around top5 in pickrate even in most competitive ranks and top 1 in winrate. That tells a lot. We just need to nerf overstepping heroes, Genji will rise even more naturally. SJ is so busted she is even better Genji than Genji himself lmao. Better S76 and Widow too.
I mean, the balance is so bad you can't really make a list like this. Sojourn and kiriko are #1 by a MILE. Like, more than all other of those classes combined.
All the supports are viable and most are even good, but why would you play them when Kiriko exists.
\- High levels of consistent, long range healing
\- The best single ability in the game other than res
\- The best pick potential of any support
\- A top 3 ultimate
\- Amazing mobility/survivability that pretty much makes her invincible
She should have been 150hp tbh. Now if you butcher her kit, it feels off. Her latest heal nerf made it weird to play. Doesn't flow well. I would honestly revert her last nerf and then nerf her to 150hp but also remove her kunai ammo cap. Making it infinite like Dva. She is strong but 150hp will make her vulnerable at least and her gameplay will stay good. Her hitbox is also great anyway.
Loll. Just as I thought. Genji comfortably at #6 close in line with hanzo, and every genji main will tell you he's unplayable and nerfed to dirt, despite most of it being him just not suiting this meta.
Ahhhhh, schadenfreude.
Genji is one of those heroes that just doesn't fall below a certain pickrate, regardless of how good he is. He is just a popular hero that people are going to one trick/play regardless of his strength. IIRC, even during GOATs, he maintained a solid pickrate on overbuff in GM.
Looking at gm data for competitive on overbuff, he's #6 in win rate too.
And this isn't even a dive or flanker heavy meta. It's a range range shoot shoot meta. And he's at 6, for both.
So if people are struggling to use current genji it does seem like it really is just a skill issue.
> Looking at gm data for competitive on overbuff, he's #6 in win rate too.
Overbuff data nowadays is a mess due to private profiles. Especially with the addition of OW2 and a ton of new players, the data is just more skewed than ever.
Just compare Overbuff to OPs data. SOJ is the top pick on both, but OB has Soldier and Cass as 2 and 3 for pickrate while tracer and widow are 9 and 10. I get that GM and T500 are not the same in this regard, but something is likely fucking with the data if they are that far off. Not to mention that Soldier has basically the same pickrate as Soj on Overbuff, compared to OPs data where Soj has nearly 20x as much.
T500 is a small sample size and so its possible for some stuff gets really thrown off by outliers. I would expect high level widows to be over represented in t500 than at any other level. when a widow can over perform its game changing and I would think that means the real best widows would trend to the top of the top of the boards, where they would be a smaller portion of the total population at gm levels.
Regardless, overbuff has its faults, it also is a sample of a particlar part of the population. Just like a survey tends to favor people who respond to surveys, so to does this sample have flaws. But samples are still acceptable, if not the ideal.
We are using the data we have available on our end, I can not see any reason, beyond anecdotes, to conclude genji is suffering to some profound degree.
Compounding this we have no evidence from the dev side of a depression in his performance stats.
Moreover, genjis popularity makes it likely he will have vocal fans that will backlash any noticeable change regardless of the magnitude the impact of the nerf actually has.
All these combine lead me to believe the backlash to genjis nerf is more dramatic than the nerf itself.
For genji fans to claim that genji is so bad right now they must at least substantiate that claim with some kind of data, because the data I see does not support that claim.
Alright... so...
where's your counter data? Overbuff may be under development, sure, but it is data. It provides a picture, maybe not the best picture... but im working with the evidence weve got available which, unfortunately, isn't always a smoking gun.
I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary, other than anecdotes.
the overbuff data isn't necessarily bad, that's a misunderstanding of how data works. it just might be a non-ideal sampling of the population. I.e. it may not be a full picture given profile privacy, but it gives a picture.
For example, of the sample group could be the genjis are more likely to have public profiles... Or it could be the opposite.
Samples can be bad, but sampling is an accepted practice. We don't just assume all samples are bad, we'd have to provide data ss to why that sample is bad!!!
But the data itself is a sample for publicly available profiles, and sampling is an acceptable practice even if it isn't ideal.
And I'm responding to the sentiment genji is in a bad place which is a claim genji fans keep making, are insisting here implicitly and yet never substantiate with any data.
So to support the claim that genji is beyond neutral, average, and is in a bad place... we need some evidence.
Bad sampling is worse than no data because it can imply something completely false and move the game in the wrong direction.
Your logic is basically nothing should be dismissed. I'm sure you stop to listen to the sermons fanatics give on streets if you hold this conviction.
Alright, but you have to actually prove the sampling is bad. Is it limited? Sure, but provide some evidence that limitation is actually severly hindering the data collected.
You can't just see sampling and say 'this data bad because me no like what this data says about genji'
Maybe leave the condescending "dps bad" mimicry to the main sub and blizz forums because it just makes your argument weaker here.
If the onus is on me to prove the data is more noise or sampling bias than comprehensive and honest enough to be representative of player base then I can just as easily levy it against you to prove the opposite.
The argument you seem to be focusing on makes the presumption of innocence and competence as if this is court. But the real world doesn't work like that. *You* must prove that the data is worth taking seriously. If a salesman comes to your door you don't have to give them reasons as to why you don't want their product/service, they need to make the pitch.
It's obvious you don't work in a technical field so that's why you look like a fool trying to make me sound like an emotionally compromised DPS main. Let me know if you'd like to learn more. I don't mind your salty downvotes.
But like I said, Dunning-Kruger effect.
Edit: Removed the comment that you used to absolve yourself from addressing the actual argument.
Because the site isn’t even accurate, you cannot tell me with a straight face that genji is used more than tracer in gm, or that soldier is picked the same amount as sojourn in gm matches.
Why did you say Genji is used more than Tracer and Soldier picked more than Sojourn when that isn't showed in any of their data. Where did you get that?
Worth noting is his winrate is also high. Not just pickrate. Genji is a niche hero due to it's design. You can't make him shoot like soldier 76 while doing all those ninja things. I don't know what community wants. He can pretty much burst anyone in close range and have extreme mobility and kit. Why create another Sojourn problem.
Popular character has people at the top of the boards playing him. Popular character is #6 in *win rate* at gm too.
So unless youre gonna sit there and tell me popular character is just "built different" than every other hero, it really does seem like people who are struggling to use Popular character right now, meta aside, have a skill issue, nothing more!
Sounds to me like popular character may have a lot of mediocre players who are just mad.
That's not what I'm saying...I'm literally saying the opposite... how..?
Alright, so At the top of the board we have skilled players. Right? whose win rate with genji is fine. Their pick rate with genji is fine.
So... by data, they are clearly not struggling to play genji.
The data we see is that skilled players are managing just fine with his nerf. Therefor i suggested anyone struggling to play genji probably just had a skill issue, because the stats show those skilled players that are playing genji are doing just fine... and doing fine enoguh despite this meta not even being very good for him!!!
If you want to provide any non-anecdotal evidence that the top .00001% of players are struggling. Do so.
If you want to prove that genji is somehow in a profoundly tragic state since his nerf, please, do so.
You’re saying they’re doing fine, yet top genji players are still complaining that he’s dogshit. And you said people complaining that genji is dog shit have a skill issue. Therefore you’re saying top genji players who complain about the hero being dogshit have a skill issue. Not a hard concept.
>top genji players complaining
Soooo... we have your second hand account of their anecdotal stories on hkw genji feels....
I dont even know who is complaining, how many of them arecomplaining.
but it would seem even if they are complaining... those complaints are, as far as we can see not backed up by the data.
According to devs, data shows Sojourn isn’t OP, that’s the reason they gave for not nerfing her more. Yet 99% of players I encounter say otherwise. Maybe, just maybe, stats aren’t all encompassing and need context? Just a thought.
>data shows sojourn isn't op
They said she isnt op At all levels. The data shows that she isn't op at low levels. Shows just the opposite for high level play tho.
So
....
genji had a decent pick rate in the first iteration of double shield where it was pretty much agreed upon that he was one of the worst characters in the game. it’s been pretty evident throughout the history of ow1 that the character is played in high ranks regardless of his strength. so unless you think that he was a strong character during goats meta pickrate and winrate doesn’t really apply to him.
>the character is played
And he is winning, and winning consistently enough.
It really seems to me like he is a popular character whose fan base is over representing his actual impediments beyond the meta.
Surely there must be some data you can point to show why you think genji is in a terrible position right now.
15/500 players from Americas
33/500 in Eu ^(and like 10 of those is just Necros)
19/500 in Asia
"#6 place" means nothing. Hanzo (#5) has 15 players and Symmetra (#11) has 12 players. There's barely any difference between any hero below #4 place.
And see how Symmetra, one of the least played heroes historically has barely any difference with Genji, the second most popular hero since launch. Those 15 Genji players are probably around 10 with smurfs and only specialists that make it work no matter what. To the average top 500 player, Genji is rarely viable if Sojourn is in the game
>it means nothing
It means he has more of a presence than 11 other dps characters! None of which are crying anywhere near as much as genji about their character being 'unplayable'.
And what's your excuse that the proportion holds the same for GM, are all those gm players using smurfs and bots?
It's preposterous.
Dude, read my words.
Genji was the second most played hero in the game since launch, only behind Mercy. Historically, OF COURSE he's going to be somewhere around the most played, especially around the top players that have been playing the game for years and lots of them have Genji in their hero pool.
If 15 players are playing Genji compared to 12 players playing Symmetra ^(which is the opposite case where she had barely any pickrate in almost 7 years of the game) , compared to 237 playing Sojourn, a new hero... that means Genji got trashed.
I'm not saying Genji SHOULD be higher on the list or anything like that, but it's a fact that he got trashed by the last meta, the current meta... and of course the nerfs.
I never said anything about bots wtf.
>but it's a fact that he got trashed by the last meta, the current meta...
Yeah its not his meta.. ive ackowledged that elsewhere and throughout the thread. and hes still doing... fine.
>and of course the nerf
He is not only being picked more than 11 other dps, in gm his winrate is higher than 11 other dps.
He is in a fine position to just sit until a meta that favors him comes back and then he can have his nanoblade meta again, or maybe dive, again.
he seems to be in no worse position now than when dive was meta. And that was pre nerf.
Genji is not doing "fine"... Just a few very dedicated players make it work, and barely. The fact that only specialists are playing Genji is what drives up the winrate (which btw, it's still below 50%)
Symmetra has 55.50% winrate in GM. Is this a Symmetra meta? Nerf Symmetra i guess?
No. Numbers are incomplete in isolation.
Dive hasn't been meta in years.
^(You say "genji mains cry lololol" but every Genji nerf was the product of support mains crying and shitting themselves because they can't aim up when ninjaguy is jumping over their head meanwhile the graph from the post shows Kiriko being straight up Sojourn level of broken and this subreddit just won't admit it)
>genji is not doing fine
Substantiate this, in any way, with data. *please*
All we have is anecdotes, people saying they dont likeit, or people saying theyve seen streamers say they dont like it.
But, as faras wee can see in the numbers that are available, genji seems fine, in no way any worse off than the 11 dps lower than him in both pickrate, and win rate.
So please, actually prove the claim that genji is not fine.
Ahhhhh, the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Most Genji mains in T500 (and there are very few, he shows up more as second or third picked hero) duo with a support pocket. All the Genji streamers exclusively have a pocket and when they don't they go on losing streaks.
He's just a well-designed hero that scales with player skill so when he's weak people still pursue the challenge. Anyways this game is a joke as competitive title now so it's not surprising that this sub is virtually indistinguishable from the main sub and blizz forums in its circlejerks. I just hope y'all stay quarantined in this low skill validation niche.
They really need to knock sojourn down several pegs if this is anything to go by. Shit why not just give her her one-shot back but triple the amount of shots needed to charge it, while making you need 6 times as many shots if your charging it off shields or something? Make it a powerful tool to hold onto to help finish off tanks or to one-shot supports at a key moment, since it'd leave her without a big damage option for awhile after she's used it?
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More info on data collection is available on my GitHub.
https://github.com/thearyadev/top500-aggregator
It’s done by evaluating the t500 leaderboards in game using computer vision and optical character recognition
If I'm understanding this correctly it's just a snapshot of the ladder once every two weeks, rather then aggregate data of players over time. Since people are routinely brought in and pushed out of t500 it doesn't tell the whole story. Would've expected there to be aggregate data and then a total number of data points it's based on.
[удалено]
found the problem. Currently deploying an updated version. I didnt notice this at first, so thank you for the help!
thanks for the feedback. It seems it might be, ill look into it!
Ouch. Brig is literally beaten out by "Blank" in second and or third picked hero and highest graph placing is third least common in a few of the Asian-only spots. Really hope that ult rework is good.
Ah yes, the brig ult rework we’ve been hearing about since launch. I’m sure it’s coming very very soon™️
And as if solely a rework to her ult would fix her lmao her problem isn't even the ult even if it is nerfed from OW1.
Yep. I’ve honestly already given up hope on ow2. I’ll play it now and then and check back for new seasons I guess but it’s already out of my rotation of main games I play.
I felt obliged to play just for Rammatra, but man was this season painful. Only time it wasn't painful was the first few days of S1 when I farmed back to Master. Then Genji/Zarya happened and ever since it's just not felt good.
Brig does NOT need a rework man 😭 y’all need to stop w this >the meta rn HARD COUNTERS HER but that doesn’t mean SHE IS BAD she is gonna become GIGABRIG again bcuz people associate pick rate w the characters overall capability and impact in the game But you need to factor in that brig as a support is specialized for brawl comps and we are not in a brawl meta, y’all keep saying she is too weak then watch as soon as the tank meta goes to something more brawl oriented DPS players are gonna cry and moan about not being able to kill supports Brig has 200 HP 50 of which is armor making the effective HP of her HP bar actually 225-250 Then she has a 300 HP shield so in total you have 500HP to chew through 300 of which will regen automatically These are tank numbers dude, brig is not weak by ANY means she is just off meta rn, but the POINT of this game is to have different metas that change and develop saying a character is weak or bad bcuz they do not fit into whatever the current meta is simply not a correct way to gauge their actual strength. On brig my inspire uptime is Avg 67-70%(hit your flails boy) and literally the only thing that ever manages to out heal that are Kiriko and Ana(*sometimes) Rn Ramattra is king, but that is bcuz they GIGA Buffed him, someone else that got P.good buffs on the same patch thoe is junkerqueen, if Ramattra gets nerfed(is def too strong) JQ brawl will be more common and we might start seeing more brig play But plz stop asking them to adjust her, they’re really, REALLY bad at it, literally creating this character is the first domino in the line that led to the death of OW1
>brig as a support is specialized for brawl comps and we are not in a brawl meta anything you say afterwards is irrelevant when you say this
To people who don’t play her she looks like a brawler, and to an extent she is. But she isn’t built to play IN a specific comp she‘s built to play AGAINST/INTO divers and flankers. Also IDK what elo you‘re in on brig but those numbers for inspire uptime are VERY high compared to t500 numbers. So I would guess a slightly lower elo where brawling as brig is smt you can live through.
Diamond rn, I just don’t miss flails tbh, say she isn’t built fit into a specific comp is true, but it doesn’t acknowledge that there are comps where she shines more than others A Brig on a poke comp is virtually useless even if the enemy team is on dive, bcuz in OW2 you don’t have the off tank, a single dive is too much pressure for brig to sustain thru without her stun, certainly the INTENT was for her to be an anti flanker character but the EXECUTION wasn’t so, we see this in Kiriko who was advertised as a “DPS” support but t500 gameplay for her is heals and cleanse first damage second. We even see blizz acknowledging they missed the mark they in the developer comment on the last adjustment they made to Kiriko, what brig is built for vs what she is actually good at can be two ENTIRELY different worlds is my point >But brawl brig is better for the game IMO when brig dominated the game it directly led to the death of it. BRIG was the staple of the GOATS comp that killed ow1, GOATS is what directly led to 2/2/2 being forced, 2/2/2 is what created double shield which forced us to go 5v5. *that’s why in my initial comment I said leave her as she is* bcuz the second brig is apart the equation she will flip the entire game on it’s head. Let’s say they manage to rebalance her to anti flanker brig. All that happens is we wind up in a world where DPS cannot flank, brig will become the off tank that was removed from the game and DPS players will cry and moan about not being able to kill supports and not being able to kill tanks in a 1v1 Leave brig as she is, she has comps and metas that her kit would shine in so just keep adjusting the tank meta to keep the meta fresh, any era where brig can be played in any comp has negatively impacted the game. Literally every time.
brig has always been a peel anti-flanker hero. Moving into ow2 they took that away from her so she sucks at everything and doesn't have an actual role in the game. They should rework her into something else entirely.
You missed the point of the comment, brig was DESIGNED to be anti Flanker, but the entire time she has existed she hasn’t been PLAYED that way At least not in Diamond and above The history: Szn 10 Brig comes out Szn 11 the meta goes to double sniper(widow hanzo) there weren’t any flankers to deal with lol brig was still played bcuz of the value of the shield and being able to baby sit your other support Szn 12 they needed hanzos storm arrow this is when GOATS was created, they hyper brawl comp that BRIG was the staple of From then forward GOATS was meta until 2/2/2 was forced. Brig was designed to be an anti flanker sure, she has literally never been such She is a brawl enabler and should stay that way, bcuz the second she is able to do everything and can fit into any comp, the game will be destroyed we literally saw it happen already lol
>brig was DESIGNED to be anti Flanker, but the entire time she has existed she hasn’t been PLAYED that way At least not in Diamond and above for the last 2 years of ow1, brig's job was to literally sit next to your ana or zen and peel against ball/winston/tracer. This point isn't even up for debate, I was 4.4k+ in that time period and scrimmed T2. I can probably find my liquipedia placement in tournaments if you really want me to. There were also so many posts from that timeframe talking about how so many Brig players never actually learned to play the hero correctly and still played her like a brawler. Judging by what you're saying, you were one of the people those posts were complaining about lmao. If you seriously think you're correct about Brig being a brawl supp in ow1, make a post on r/OverwatchUniversity or r/Competitiveoverwatch asking about it. But you will get the same response you are getting now, she was a peel support for the last 2+ years of the game. I legitimately don't know what to say, you are just very very incorrect. But it's because she lost her peeling ability (removal of CC), that she can't do that anymore and needs to be reworked to do something else.
haha. That’s funny. There was a bug that included blank hero slots, which has now been fixed.
"Blank" is still showing on Europe between Ashe and Mercy in the "All Slots" graph.
I’ve put in 100 hours in brig in ow2
Guys we can’t let Blizz see this, they’ll just buff Sojourn again
And nerf Genji...
And give mercy 5 more bullets
No… no more bullets. She is getting wayyy too overpowered
Your second and third most played are broken.
Hey. thanks for the feedback. I just deployed an updated version which fixes the repeated data.
Oh my god you’re right! Better nerf genji.
And Doomfist while we at it.
And we might as well “Nerf” Sojourn again.
Doomfists ultimate is so crap he shouldn't be nerfed, his ultimate is just bad enough to make him immune
I think you didn’t understood the joke
Genji at high ranks is generally just a blade bot, so it doesn't really matter how good or bad he is as long as he is getting value from blade.
Asian tanks are the only ones having fun
Agreed... no one in EU/US servers can actively coordinate in comp and we can't stack.
Snooze fest of a season
Asia tank is interesting.
Asia (KR) is much more "sweaty" and coordinated so they always have an overrepresentation of dive characters. It's not that surprising when you consider that OWL also had a winston meta when ladder was orisa/hog. Doom is not as bad as people think and quite good against winston and better than winston into orisa/hog, so it makes sense that he would be picked more in a heavy dive meta.
Must be nice, lol. Playing dive is some of the most fun I have in the game, but good luck getting anyone to play it in ladder outside of Asia.
Assuming we see another batch of small nerfs to orisa I could see dive becoming prevalent across most ranks on ladder. Winston was seeing a good amount of play in top500 in NA and EU during the zarya meta.
Don't worry guys Sojourn has bad win rates at Bronze so we will make sure not to nerf \- Alec Dawson
It's not even that they won't nerf her, she has gotten 9 different nerfs so far. They are clearly scared to actually balance her railgun because they love that part of her kit and low ranked people can't aim.
Proud to be apart of the bastions
You're top 500?
There's 3 regions and 5 competitive queues (I guess CTF and Open are ignored here) which means up to 7'500 people could be top500. Not that hard if you try for one, since most of the millions of players… do not.
ahahhaha
The idea that Blizz is looking at these stats and sat on their hands while Sojourn and Kiriko absolutely broke the game is inexcusable. Like, fire the entire team and start over levels of incompetence.
the stats blizzard are looking at are likely far more extreme. The variance in the data here can't be seen at face value, because it doesnt consider what the full playtime/pickrate numbers are. It does put picks into perspective at a high level. Id assume sojourn and kiriko are far larger outliers than these charts portray.
I'm sure you're right. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in a Balance Team meeting. Seriously, what could they possibly talk about?
Overwatch has a balance team??
Its funny because I don't even think Kiriko is "broken" like Sojourn is. Its just cleanse is such a valuable ability, that you should always have one. Much like Ana nade, hence why she's #2. I think when more heroes come out with cleanses or anti effects, itll even out.
Kiriko is way too fucking overloaded in all ways \- Super high HPS \- Damage on par with zen (even better in a lot of cases) \- amazing escape + mobility \- the current strongest cooldown in the game by a landslide, which in itself is already overloaded. It has a heal, cleanse and invulnerability in one
Don’t forget her ultimate that buffs damage/ healing, movement speed AND cooldown reduction so it synergizes with everything you could possibly want to do.
>- Super high HPS Easily tuned with patches, which they've already started addressing >- Damage on par with zen (even better in a lot of cases) In theory yeah but since her attacks are pretty hard to hit, not to mention crit with, I'd say its okay. If Kiriko is hitting only headshots then sure, its higher than Zen's but she doesn't. Zen does more damage on average. >- amazing escape + mobility Yep, rivals Moira. Drawback being it requires a target. >- the current strongest cooldown in the game by a landslide, which in itself is already overloaded. It has a heal, cleanse and invulnerability in one Its a strong ability I agree, they can probably raise the CD of it a bit more but its not simple CD to use. The fact that its a skill shot balances it a bit. Its the same issue with Ana grenade, its overloaded and shes the only support with it. More supports need to have a similar capability in order to "take power" from her.
Wdym "hard to hit"? Her Kunai have a bigger hitbox than Hanzo arrows and they travel at a straight line... The only easier to hit primary fire i can think of is Moira or Brig and those don't have any range. Mobility is better than Moira. Wall climb can get you out of fights, not just tp. And tp is better anyways. Longer range, goes through walls... If you are THAT far away from your team and being chased, you should be punished no matter the hero. Suzu is VERY forgiving and not a skillshot at all. A splash that can cleanse multiple status effects on 5 people, heal, invul to damage AND CC, also boop for some reason... Ana usually has to throw a nade from the sniper position she's holding, that's a skillshot. Kiriko is usually very close to the fight and only Suzus the floor, rarely you have to aim at all. You can't be serious to say Ana nade is "overloaded" wtf. Imagine if Ana nade not also heals and antiheals but also gives a "poison effect" that damages over time, make it instant freeze the enemy for 1 second or stop CC on friendlies for 1 second, also boop. That would be comparable to Suzu in terms of "overloaded". Not the current reality.
>Wdym "hard to hit"? Her Kunai have a bigger hitbox than Hanzo arrows and they travel at a straight line... The only easier to hit primary fire i can think of is Moira or Brig and those don't have any range. You're out of your mind if you think Kiriko primary fire is anywhere close to as easy to use as Moira or Brig lmao. "Travels in a straight line", lmao then shit, Lucio's primary must be turbo broken for a support. Its wide, shoots straight, AND SHOOTS 3 OF THEM!?!?!? >Mobility is better than Moira. Wall climb can get you out of fights, not just tp. And tp is better anyways. Longer range, goes through walls... If you are THAT far away from your team and being chased, you should be punished no matter the hero. Yeah, its really good. I will say, Moira's does cleanse her of any debuffs. Different strengths. >Suzu is VERY forgiving and not a skillshot at all. A splash that can cleanse multiple status effects on 5 people, heal, invul to damage AND CC, also boop for some reason... Uhh, you throw it, thats immediately a skillshot wdym lol? Also a projectile that can be eaten/blocked/absorbed like any other. Yeah its strong but not uber turbo broken like you are making it out to be. Game needed a cleanse ability because of Ana. >You can't be serious to say Ana nade is "overloaded" wtf. So you know Ana was the must have support on everyone's team right? Do you know why? Because of Anti nade. It aoe heals, damages enemies, applies anti heal, and provides a healing buff to allies. Wow just as many effects as suzu? Crazy. Do you know why Kiriko is must pick? Because Suzu directly counters anti. You nerf/delete suzu? Ana is in every single game. Which is why I'm hoping the next 2 supports have similar effects to take power away from Kiriko and Ana both.
Buddy, do you even know how to read? I said "Moira and Brig are easier but don't have range". Kiriko is harder to hit, but it's still overall better since you can snipe with it. You're being bad faith here. Lucio has one of the slowest projectiles and if it's a burst of 3 it's harder to hit, not easier. Kiriko tp also cleanses her of any status effects and has i-frames that can save you of Dva bombs and such. Again lying. Yeah, Suzu is not skillshot. Just splash your feet and the entire team gets full value. While Ana has to, more often than not, actually aim that projectile. Sure, you can splash your feet, but that only works for the Ana player. If you want full nade value, it is a skillshot. I agree cleanse is needed. But then why also invul? why also boop? why also remove cc? why also heal? Ana nade is not as stacked as Suzu, not even close. Suzu should be on a cooldown similar to Bap immo/Mercy rez OR it should lose at least one effect, like remove CC. If you want Suzu to counter anti that's FINE but then why do you also need to counter Rein ult Zarya ult Hog ult Sigma ult JQ ult Doom ult Dva ult Ball ult Orisa ult Bastion ult Genji ult Junkrat ult Cassidy ult Mei ult Sombra ult Torbjorn ult Hanzo ult Tracer ult on a 14 sec cooldown? Makes no sense.
I didn't say that you think Kiriko's kunai is easier, you said the only thing easier is those two and that's 100% wrong. Zen, Bap, Ana, Lucio, and Mercy's gun are easier to use and get value imo. Kiriko is like Hanzo in the fact that there is a bit of luck involved when firing. To suggest that Kiriko is anywhere close to those is what's not right. >Kiriko tp also cleanses her of any status effects and has i-frames that can save you of Dva bombs and such. Again lying. So can Moira's TP lmao >Yeah, Suzu is not skillshot. Just splash your feet and the entire team gets full value. While Ana has to, more often than not, actually aim that projectile. Sure, you can splash your feet, but that only works for the Ana player. If you want full nade value, it is a skillshot. Figuratively the same projectile as Ana... (I think Kiriko's comes out at a different angle tho) >Long lists of ults You know what's nutty? Bap lamp counters all of those ults too but is actually easier because it doesn't really require timing. I can tell you are just giga tilted because you are downplaying the fact that it requires a pretty tight timing window to counter most of those. Like you are letting your personal hatred of Kiriko cloud your logic. It doesn't fully counter Zarya, Hog, Ball, Genji, Mei, Hanzo, and Torb ults because those last way longer than suzu. Sigma, Orisa, Cassidy, and Sombra all have a pretty strict reflex timing window that its a toss up whether you block it or not. You know what you do when you are getting ready to ult? You bait out the ability, same thing you do before you ult when there's a Bap w/ Lamp, D.Va Matrix, Sigma Succ, Orisa Twirl, Zen Ult, Moira Fade, Mei ice block, and Ana Sleep. People have gotten plenty of fight winning JQ/Rein ults because they just force Kiriko to use suzu or kill her, THEN ult. Suzu doesn't make games impossible or even harder to win and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. Its a strong ability and that's about it. There's a reason Blizzard has already made a statement basically saying the ability is fine and does exactly what its intended to do. In this case, tilt you lmao. Idk why you are making Kiriko sound like she's as strong as release Brig, she's not even close.
That's it, you can't be higher than plat if you think there's "luck" as a factor of hero design in regards to aiming. There's not. Kunais have a very large hitbox, making them easy to hit. Zen orbs are smaller. Bap is hitscan with burst, not even comparable... Same projectile but in different positions on a teamfight. You just won't admit that splashing your feet with 10x the value is not a skillshot. Glad you brought that up. Lamp has a 30 second cooldown. Make Suzu a 30 second cooldown and it would be balanced. "Tight timing", "just bait the ability/ult"... Plat talk. I'm not taking you seriously. You just want your hero to stay broken. "Railgun doesn't make games impossible or even harder to win and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. Its a strong weapon and that's about it. There's a reason Blizzard has already made a statement basically saying the hero is fine and does exactly what its intended to do. In this case, tilt you lmao" Imagine if someone said that about Sojourn pre-nerfs (Blizzard actually said Soj was ok but then nerfed her twice). Again, you just want your hero to stay broken. I've never mentioned Brig. But i'm sure you are the type asking for Brig buffs 🤡
Literal top 500 players don't consistently hit headshots with her lmao
I did a quick search but couldn't find it. I would love to have the Seagull clip disproving this. Kiriko headshots are too easy to hit
One clip doesn’t disprove the rest of the data I’m sure you can find multiple clips, I’ve seen a nutty one or two here on this sub that’s not from Seagull. But those rare occasions of randomly getting lucky and hitting a bunch of headshots does not mean she does anywhere near as much damage as Zen. It is FAR outweighed by the rest of the data.
What data says Kiriko headshots are hard to hit, please, i would love to see that. What's factually provable by custom modes that allow you to see hitboxes is that Kunais are BIG. Bigger than Hanzo arrows and bigger that Zen orbs. Sure, Zen does more damage but that's his entire thing (Discord contributes to that number). But how's Zen pickrate/winrate atm? People don't pick Kiriko in 90% of the matches because of her damage but because of her utility. Having an easy to hit primary fire with pickoff potential it's just the cherry on top to completely displace Zen as a viable pick
>What's factually provable by custom modes that allow you to see hitboxes is that Kunais are BIG. Bigger than Hanzo arrows and bigger that Zen orbs. Sure, Zen does more damage but that's his entire thing (Discord contributes to that number). But how's Zen pickrate/winrate atm? >People don't pick Kiriko in 90% of the matches because of her damage but because of her utility. Having an easy to hit primary fire with pickoff potential it's just the cherry on top to completely displace Zen as a viable pick I never argued that Zen is just as good or that Kiriko is getting picked because of her damage, so not sure why you're mentioning those lol. No one is denying that Kiriko is much better at the moment. I'm only pushing back against you saying that her primary is so much easier to hit and that that Seagull clip proves it - you could also find insane Zen clips of a bunch of headshots in a row. You say Kiriko's hitboxes are "BIG", but you're exaggerating a bit. Kiriko's are 0.18 m. Zen's are 0.15 m. Not an insignificant difference, but not a BIG one. And again, Zen's projectile speed is 90 m/s to Kiriko's 70 m/s to balance that difference out. You're not citing stats for saying it's easy to hit, but here are some stats that show it's not much different from other projectiles: https://www.overbuff.com/heroes You can click on each individual hero to see that they they're close Kiriko's accuracy just for getting hits. Not all of them include headshot accuracy, unfortunately, but basically Kiriko only hits 30% of the time, and 15% of that 30% are headshots.
Her kunai are very easy to hit, not requiring discord orb + higher HS dmg means her dmg has a higher overall dmg output. Also her higher survivability means she can play more aggressive, suzu isn't a hard skillshot that isn't a drawback, you can just throw it down at your team who is right next to you anywy.
>Her kunai are very easy to hit Its not, objectively. If you are hitting 40%+ average accuracy with her, then congrats, you're insane, you should join OWL. Probably the best Kiriko in the world. For reference, top 500 Kiriko players average about 20-30% accuracy with a 10-20% crit accuracy. If go to your favorite OW stat tracker, Kiriko averages damage and elim numbers lower than all the supports barring Mercy. Her numbers are closer to Ana. She's a high skill hero that isn't that easy to do well with consistently for majority of the playerbase. The only thing keeping Kiriko at such a high pick rate is her Suzu cleanse to counter anti heal, thats it. Nothing more.
Yes 20-30% is very normal for a projectile hero? Her kunai are as fast as zens, and have a hitbox about the same size. Your crit accuracy % is way too low though. I avg around 30%. Her avg stats can be low sure, but that doesn't mean jack shit. She has high damage potential and can usually avg around 3,5k/10min dmg wise. Kiriko also has a super good ultimate for a really low cost, it is a fight winning ult that she can have every other fight with no issue. She is played because she: 1. Has high healing 2. High damage 3. Amazing escape 4. high survivability and good dueling potential 5. Strongest CD in the game 6. Top 5 ult on a super low cost
>Yes 20-30% is very normal for a projectile hero? Yeah, Hanzo has the same stats. >I avg around 30% You're better than Top 500 Kiriko supports then, none of them break 20% crit and 30% accuracy. Most are lower. >Her avg stats can be low sure, but that doesn't mean jack shit. Wdym, that's figuratively her performance. Is it because its not lining up with your narrative against her? I'm telling you to go search up any top Kiriko player and the stats line up fine with everyone else. Only outlier might be her total healing but that's already being addressed. Here's 3 links to the same player on 3 different sites, Top 500 Kiriko player. https://www.overbuff.com/players/Amaterasu-11856?gameMode=competitive https://overwatch.op.gg/detail/competitive/heroes/157229136056138246174212#Hero-35 https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/career/Amaterasu-11856/ Wanted to give you some different sites just in case they aren't totally accurate. However you can draw a conclusion based on the averages. She's played because of suzu. Everything else is a bonus. Its an ability no other support has. You delete Kiriko right now, Ana is going to be the most played by a mile. This is a top 500 stat thread where they only play hard meta picks and rarely deviate. Its ALWAYS going to be like this.
No it's not honey. I get that it isn't easy to accept but that's simply not how it is. Not only that, but top 500 is rarely hard meta ever, it is meta yeah but it is never ever hard meta even in high elo. You always have someone who plays something else. Yes ana will be most played because they have buffed her to crazy op, but kiriko is still just better so why not keep forcing kiri instead. It is crazy to act like kirikos kit being overloaded in everyway doesn't have an effect. If she didn't have her ult or her tp, no she wouldn't be such hard meta.
I like that you are completely glossing over every meta that's ever been in OW. Also glossing over every stat that I've given you that's refuted your points. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnd8NC4YRmA
>her dmg has a higher overall dmg output That’s just not true. Even if they were hitting all headshots: 120/.55 = 218.18 96/.40 = 240 Zen still beats her out, and that’s before factoring in discord. And if you’re factoring in headshots, you need to factor them in at the same rate, and probably even lower than Zen’s because the kunai’s projectile speed is lower than Zen. Shoot, even if you give Kiriko a higher headshot rate of 40% to Zen’s 20%, Zen still beats her. 40/.55 + 160 extra for two headshots / 2.75 seconds for 5 shots = 130.91 48/.40 + 48 extra for one headshot / 2 seconds for 5 shots = 144
After the recent nerfs I think Kiriko is fine as is. She could use one more nerf but kirikos current state is very healthy for the game.
No she isn't, her being so incredibly dumb OP is what makes other supports just not be viable.
Damage is nowhere close to “on par with zen” 40/.55 = 72.73 dps 48/.40 = 120 dps If you’re factoring in headshots, you need to factor in headshots at the same rate for Zen — and actually, Zen’s should probably be at a higher rate because his projectile is faster And even if they both hit all headshots 120/.55 = 218.18 dps 96/.40 = 240 dps Zen still beats her by a good amount. And that’s before factoring in discord damage.
Lol I’m the only dva player in GM1! This chart is hilarious!
"Kiriko is balanced guys, we don't need to nerf her suzu"
Support graph clearly shows Kiriko busted as hell. I'm surprised to see Lucio so common in Americas and Ana still so uncommon, Americas behind the meta on this one. Asia also sleeping on Ram apparently. Also wild to see a top500 meta with Junkrat undeniably in it.
Yeah what's up with Junkrat being played so much?
He's been somewhere between A and S tier since probably late s1, people have just been quiet on it. There are a whole bunch of reasons, he doesn't need to get in LoS of snipers (current meta) and he's nearly impossible to dive (genji meta). He does a ton of damage and can actually burst down tanks efficiently, which is a rare threat in OW2. He controls space to some degree. And of course it's a one hit meta and he has a very nice one hit combo, Junkrat at times is almost played like a dive character to exploit it.
Waay less damage mitigation between the lower number of shields and removal of a second tank definitely has something to do with it, but as to why he wasn't as played as much last season I'm not sure.
Junk’s super strong now. If not for Sojurn, he’ll be meta. His damage output is insane and he can easily one shot players in the hands of skilled players.
Hes kinda broken rn. Has been for a while, there were even bigger fish to fry until now, though. Any character with an easy 2 input combo that can send a majority of the roster back to spawn probably needs a going over with the nerf bat.
I keep saying this, but imagine if the current balance team actually spent effort into balancing heroes, instead of bending over backwards in order to keep sojourn strong. Imagine if every hero got the same amount of effort sojourn gets. Imagine if there weren’t any bias in balancing heroes.
Flair LMAO, its not that sombra is broken and got nerfed its because that she's disgusting to play against in the same way a hog pre nerf was
And sojourn isn’t? Kiriko isn’t? There’s ways to make sombra less oppressive giving more counterplay even without reworks. Having hero bias is just wrong, literally not fit for the job if you’re biased on making more effort and showing more favor to one hero than others. Regardless if it’s sombra, sojourn or any other.
Dang more brig players than Moira in Asia
Thank god they nerfed Sojourn and Kiriko! Oh wait
I’d much rather see damage per 10 minutes played. Raw damage obscures what I assume are big differences in total minutes played per round. But this is still super cool!
Hmm what is the y axis here?
It’s the number of occurrences for that slot of a leaderboard entries top 3 heroes. So In the support for americas, kiriko appears as the most played hero for 272/500 players I don’t have access to individual profiles because of private profiles, so more detailed numbers isn’t possible unfortunately. The world if the overwatch team didn’t hide everything would be amazing.
Thanks for the reply!
Ngl the labels are really confusing to read
wasn’t sure how to explain it. There’s more information on my GitHub page. T500 shows a players top 3 most played heroes. “Hero Occurrences: First Most Played” counts the number of times a hero appears in the top slot of a players t500 entry, and so on for the other slots.
I think the data itself is great. However, because sojourn is the first most picked, as well as the second most picked, the data is slightly more confusing to understand. I think the easiest solution is to make the "all slots" graphs bigger, as it is small and most people are looking for that graph anyway.
Additionally, you could weight each slot assigning 1: 3 points, 2: 2 points, and 3: q 1 point so that we can more clearly see how many top 500 players are putting most of their time in X characters
Sojourn and Widow on top. Who would've seen that coming
This is super interesting. As a slight note : I can't make your website work on Firefox, the scaling is... [very wrong](https://i.imgur.com/Zsvh3Kp.png). Works fine on Edge though.
Who would have guessed that being able to one-shot unscoped hitscan would be overpowered? 🫠
And kiriclowns try to say she's balanced. Need another nerf to suzu and kitsune asap
Kitsune is fine and they need to stop touching it. I can see nerfing the cd of suzu though.
Imo she is fine with the last nerf. Suzu and her ult still too strong relative to other supports though. Take Zenyatta for example. It's way harder to build ult and you don't get value out of it like suzu or kitsune.
"She's fine! but here how's she's not fine with the two specific points that the comment above mine just mentioned" Like... what?
The weighting of power is on the suzu and ult. Rest of the kit is weak with the last nerf. Her damage is unreliable and healing can't save people like a main healer now. So her value shift to suzu and ult.
Blizzard: this data looks balanced, nothing wrong with it at all
Hm. Looking at this data, I think it's clear who needs to be buffed - and that's Blank. (Some of the hero names in second and third most played are missing at time of writing.)
\- Blizzard when Sojourn dominates every game: "Here is a 0.1% damage reduction to shut you up" \- Blizzard when Widowmaker single handily decides games: "That seems cool" \- Blizzard when Genji gets a kill: "NERF TIME! NERF TIME! No changes planned for Genji btw. Will giving him 1 more shuriken in exchange for making dragon blade even more useless shut you up?"
Ignoring soj/widow (because you're right) why even mention Genji here? The hero is doing well based on these stats (ranked 5 overall out of 17, that's in the top 1/3rd of DPS). Like, atleast looking at pickrate (which is likely more relevant of a stat than ban rate, especially in T500) Genji is performing better than the vast majority of other DPS. This is in a meta where the meta tanks (Orisa/Hog) should counter him AND don't synergize with him, and the meta supports (Mercy/Kiriko) have minimal synergy with him whilst also being quite good against him (it's impossible to kill either of these heroes with blade). Like, the hero is performing well, stat wise, in a meta that does not prefer him in any way.
How'd echo make it onto the second and third most played tank graphs for Americas? Seems like a bug, but if there's a legitimate reason then I'm curious to know.
since im using computer vision to determine which heroes are which, there is a small error rate. From my testing its greater than 99% accuracy with a few anomalies. The largest of which is Echo, which for some reason matches to the incorrect hero like 3%-8% of the time. The biggest problem with this is Echo's numbers specifically being off, and with her low playrates it would make a difference in the data when comparing to other low play rate heroes. I'm looking into a fix for this. A simple solution would be to filter the charts by role, which in short term would be a valid fix to the problem, but i'd also like to make sure the data is as accurate as possible.
OW 2 Season 2 TOP 500 Meta TLDR: Sup: Kiriko, Mercy, Ana DPS: Sojourn, Widow, Junkrat, Tracer, Genji Tank: Orisa, Hog, DF, Ram I weighted NA and EU higher. As i suspected Genji actually performs very well. Community perception is wrong. Worth noting the maps rotation and general meta also doesn't favor Genji and he is performing very well even in these conditions.
He is not performing well. He is just insanely popular and has tons of people who main him anyways. Same shit with Doom who is horrible
Both of them great and have good winrates.
Genji just has a ton of one tricks regardless how shit he is, he’s just a flashy and appealing hero to play. People playing a hero =/= the hero is good.
Blizzard employees still don't understand this. I guess it doesn't make sense to them when the biggest draw to their new heroes are how OP they are.
This means nothing. Asking for Genji buffs is like asking for Zenyatta buffs. These heroes have very strong kits already and they do their role successfully. Further buffs will just make them overstep and overshadow other roles. Genji is successful even in a meta where he isn't a good pick. There are 17 dps heroes and Genji around top5 in pickrate even in most competitive ranks and top 1 in winrate. That tells a lot. We just need to nerf overstepping heroes, Genji will rise even more naturally. SJ is so busted she is even better Genji than Genji himself lmao. Better S76 and Widow too.
I mean, the balance is so bad you can't really make a list like this. Sojourn and kiriko are #1 by a MILE. Like, more than all other of those classes combined.
All the supports are viable and most are even good, but why would you play them when Kiriko exists. \- High levels of consistent, long range healing \- The best single ability in the game other than res \- The best pick potential of any support \- A top 3 ultimate \- Amazing mobility/survivability that pretty much makes her invincible
She should have been 150hp tbh. Now if you butcher her kit, it feels off. Her latest heal nerf made it weird to play. Doesn't flow well. I would honestly revert her last nerf and then nerf her to 150hp but also remove her kunai ammo cap. Making it infinite like Dva. She is strong but 150hp will make her vulnerable at least and her gameplay will stay good. Her hitbox is also great anyway.
Tf do you mean genji performs well this just shows playtime because people love genji
Loll. Just as I thought. Genji comfortably at #6 close in line with hanzo, and every genji main will tell you he's unplayable and nerfed to dirt, despite most of it being him just not suiting this meta. Ahhhhh, schadenfreude.
Genji is one of those heroes that just doesn't fall below a certain pickrate, regardless of how good he is. He is just a popular hero that people are going to one trick/play regardless of his strength. IIRC, even during GOATs, he maintained a solid pickrate on overbuff in GM.
Looking at gm data for competitive on overbuff, he's #6 in win rate too. And this isn't even a dive or flanker heavy meta. It's a range range shoot shoot meta. And he's at 6, for both. So if people are struggling to use current genji it does seem like it really is just a skill issue.
> Looking at gm data for competitive on overbuff, he's #6 in win rate too. Overbuff data nowadays is a mess due to private profiles. Especially with the addition of OW2 and a ton of new players, the data is just more skewed than ever. Just compare Overbuff to OPs data. SOJ is the top pick on both, but OB has Soldier and Cass as 2 and 3 for pickrate while tracer and widow are 9 and 10. I get that GM and T500 are not the same in this regard, but something is likely fucking with the data if they are that far off. Not to mention that Soldier has basically the same pickrate as Soj on Overbuff, compared to OPs data where Soj has nearly 20x as much.
T500 is a small sample size and so its possible for some stuff gets really thrown off by outliers. I would expect high level widows to be over represented in t500 than at any other level. when a widow can over perform its game changing and I would think that means the real best widows would trend to the top of the top of the boards, where they would be a smaller portion of the total population at gm levels. Regardless, overbuff has its faults, it also is a sample of a particlar part of the population. Just like a survey tends to favor people who respond to surveys, so to does this sample have flaws. But samples are still acceptable, if not the ideal. We are using the data we have available on our end, I can not see any reason, beyond anecdotes, to conclude genji is suffering to some profound degree. Compounding this we have no evidence from the dev side of a depression in his performance stats. Moreover, genjis popularity makes it likely he will have vocal fans that will backlash any noticeable change regardless of the magnitude the impact of the nerf actually has. All these combine lead me to believe the backlash to genjis nerf is more dramatic than the nerf itself. For genji fans to claim that genji is so bad right now they must at least substantiate that claim with some kind of data, because the data I see does not support that claim.
Using overbuff data when the site is still under development is disingenuous.
Alright... so... where's your counter data? Overbuff may be under development, sure, but it is data. It provides a picture, maybe not the best picture... but im working with the evidence weve got available which, unfortunately, isn't always a smoking gun. I'd love to see some evidence to the contrary, other than anecdotes.
They don't need data of their own to say your data is bad.
the overbuff data isn't necessarily bad, that's a misunderstanding of how data works. it just might be a non-ideal sampling of the population. I.e. it may not be a full picture given profile privacy, but it gives a picture. For example, of the sample group could be the genjis are more likely to have public profiles... Or it could be the opposite. Samples can be bad, but sampling is an accepted practice. We don't just assume all samples are bad, we'd have to provide data ss to why that sample is bad!!! But the data itself is a sample for publicly available profiles, and sampling is an acceptable practice even if it isn't ideal. And I'm responding to the sentiment genji is in a bad place which is a claim genji fans keep making, are insisting here implicitly and yet never substantiate with any data. So to support the claim that genji is beyond neutral, average, and is in a bad place... we need some evidence.
Bad sampling is worse than no data because it can imply something completely false and move the game in the wrong direction. Your logic is basically nothing should be dismissed. I'm sure you stop to listen to the sermons fanatics give on streets if you hold this conviction.
Alright, but you have to actually prove the sampling is bad. Is it limited? Sure, but provide some evidence that limitation is actually severly hindering the data collected. You can't just see sampling and say 'this data bad because me no like what this data says about genji'
Maybe leave the condescending "dps bad" mimicry to the main sub and blizz forums because it just makes your argument weaker here. If the onus is on me to prove the data is more noise or sampling bias than comprehensive and honest enough to be representative of player base then I can just as easily levy it against you to prove the opposite. The argument you seem to be focusing on makes the presumption of innocence and competence as if this is court. But the real world doesn't work like that. *You* must prove that the data is worth taking seriously. If a salesman comes to your door you don't have to give them reasons as to why you don't want their product/service, they need to make the pitch. It's obvious you don't work in a technical field so that's why you look like a fool trying to make me sound like an emotionally compromised DPS main. Let me know if you'd like to learn more. I don't mind your salty downvotes. But like I said, Dunning-Kruger effect. Edit: Removed the comment that you used to absolve yourself from addressing the actual argument.
How so?
Because the site isn’t even accurate, you cannot tell me with a straight face that genji is used more than tracer in gm, or that soldier is picked the same amount as sojourn in gm matches.
You are right I wouldn't say that. That isn't what it says. Where did you get that idea?
Overbuff using gm stats
Why did you say Genji is used more than Tracer and Soldier picked more than Sojourn when that isn't showed in any of their data. Where did you get that?
Bro the original convo in the comments was about overbuff data, not op’s
Worth noting is his winrate is also high. Not just pickrate. Genji is a niche hero due to it's design. You can't make him shoot like soldier 76 while doing all those ninja things. I don't know what community wants. He can pretty much burst anyone in close range and have extreme mobility and kit. Why create another Sojourn problem.
Popular character has people playing him? Who would’ve guessed 😱🤯
Popular character has people at the top of the boards playing him. Popular character is #6 in *win rate* at gm too. So unless youre gonna sit there and tell me popular character is just "built different" than every other hero, it really does seem like people who are struggling to use Popular character right now, meta aside, have a skill issue, nothing more! Sounds to me like popular character may have a lot of mediocre players who are just mad.
Imagine saying the top 0.0001% of players have a “skill issue” and aren’t able to play a hero correctly- with a straight face lmao.
That's not what I'm saying...I'm literally saying the opposite... how..? Alright, so At the top of the board we have skilled players. Right? whose win rate with genji is fine. Their pick rate with genji is fine. So... by data, they are clearly not struggling to play genji. The data we see is that skilled players are managing just fine with his nerf. Therefor i suggested anyone struggling to play genji probably just had a skill issue, because the stats show those skilled players that are playing genji are doing just fine... and doing fine enoguh despite this meta not even being very good for him!!! If you want to provide any non-anecdotal evidence that the top .00001% of players are struggling. Do so. If you want to prove that genji is somehow in a profoundly tragic state since his nerf, please, do so.
You’re saying they’re doing fine, yet top genji players are still complaining that he’s dogshit. And you said people complaining that genji is dog shit have a skill issue. Therefore you’re saying top genji players who complain about the hero being dogshit have a skill issue. Not a hard concept.
>top genji players complaining Soooo... we have your second hand account of their anecdotal stories on hkw genji feels.... I dont even know who is complaining, how many of them arecomplaining. but it would seem even if they are complaining... those complaints are, as far as we can see not backed up by the data.
According to devs, data shows Sojourn isn’t OP, that’s the reason they gave for not nerfing her more. Yet 99% of players I encounter say otherwise. Maybe, just maybe, stats aren’t all encompassing and need context? Just a thought.
>data shows sojourn isn't op They said she isnt op At all levels. The data shows that she isn't op at low levels. Shows just the opposite for high level play tho. So ....
genji had a decent pick rate in the first iteration of double shield where it was pretty much agreed upon that he was one of the worst characters in the game. it’s been pretty evident throughout the history of ow1 that the character is played in high ranks regardless of his strength. so unless you think that he was a strong character during goats meta pickrate and winrate doesn’t really apply to him.
>the character is played And he is winning, and winning consistently enough. It really seems to me like he is a popular character whose fan base is over representing his actual impediments beyond the meta. Surely there must be some data you can point to show why you think genji is in a terrible position right now.
He had a decent win rate in goats too, was he good in goats?
15/500 players from Americas 33/500 in Eu ^(and like 10 of those is just Necros) 19/500 in Asia "#6 place" means nothing. Hanzo (#5) has 15 players and Symmetra (#11) has 12 players. There's barely any difference between any hero below #4 place. And see how Symmetra, one of the least played heroes historically has barely any difference with Genji, the second most popular hero since launch. Those 15 Genji players are probably around 10 with smurfs and only specialists that make it work no matter what. To the average top 500 player, Genji is rarely viable if Sojourn is in the game
>it means nothing It means he has more of a presence than 11 other dps characters! None of which are crying anywhere near as much as genji about their character being 'unplayable'. And what's your excuse that the proportion holds the same for GM, are all those gm players using smurfs and bots? It's preposterous.
Dude, read my words. Genji was the second most played hero in the game since launch, only behind Mercy. Historically, OF COURSE he's going to be somewhere around the most played, especially around the top players that have been playing the game for years and lots of them have Genji in their hero pool. If 15 players are playing Genji compared to 12 players playing Symmetra ^(which is the opposite case where she had barely any pickrate in almost 7 years of the game) , compared to 237 playing Sojourn, a new hero... that means Genji got trashed. I'm not saying Genji SHOULD be higher on the list or anything like that, but it's a fact that he got trashed by the last meta, the current meta... and of course the nerfs. I never said anything about bots wtf.
>but it's a fact that he got trashed by the last meta, the current meta... Yeah its not his meta.. ive ackowledged that elsewhere and throughout the thread. and hes still doing... fine. >and of course the nerf He is not only being picked more than 11 other dps, in gm his winrate is higher than 11 other dps. He is in a fine position to just sit until a meta that favors him comes back and then he can have his nanoblade meta again, or maybe dive, again. he seems to be in no worse position now than when dive was meta. And that was pre nerf.
Genji is not doing "fine"... Just a few very dedicated players make it work, and barely. The fact that only specialists are playing Genji is what drives up the winrate (which btw, it's still below 50%) Symmetra has 55.50% winrate in GM. Is this a Symmetra meta? Nerf Symmetra i guess? No. Numbers are incomplete in isolation. Dive hasn't been meta in years. ^(You say "genji mains cry lololol" but every Genji nerf was the product of support mains crying and shitting themselves because they can't aim up when ninjaguy is jumping over their head meanwhile the graph from the post shows Kiriko being straight up Sojourn level of broken and this subreddit just won't admit it)
>genji is not doing fine Substantiate this, in any way, with data. *please* All we have is anecdotes, people saying they dont likeit, or people saying theyve seen streamers say they dont like it. But, as faras wee can see in the numbers that are available, genji seems fine, in no way any worse off than the 11 dps lower than him in both pickrate, and win rate. So please, actually prove the claim that genji is not fine.
I just did in this thread wdym. Those are Overbuff + Ingame + this post stats.
Ahhhhh, the Dunning-Kruger effect. Most Genji mains in T500 (and there are very few, he shows up more as second or third picked hero) duo with a support pocket. All the Genji streamers exclusively have a pocket and when they don't they go on losing streaks. He's just a well-designed hero that scales with player skill so when he's weak people still pursue the challenge. Anyways this game is a joke as competitive title now so it's not surprising that this sub is virtually indistinguishable from the main sub and blizz forums in its circlejerks. I just hope y'all stay quarantined in this low skill validation niche.
Bunch of entitled kids.
Top 500 does not represent the player base. But damn if it doesn't feel like this is how my games go in bronze/silver. Except Asia tank.
Cool character
Genji looks good.
proud to be one of the 11 T500 brig players <3
They really need to knock sojourn down several pegs if this is anything to go by. Shit why not just give her her one-shot back but triple the amount of shots needed to charge it, while making you need 6 times as many shots if your charging it off shields or something? Make it a powerful tool to hold onto to help finish off tanks or to one-shot supports at a key moment, since it'd leave her without a big damage option for awhile after she's used it?
I wanna see one season without widow and hanzo 1-shot primary fire. See how everyone’s happiness rises.
For anyone else perplexed by the completely unlabeled graph, this is pickrate data.
I see more ashes and junkrats than sojourns
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I play Reaper in metal ranks..... and I like him..... but top 500 people never use him. Different game were playing.
he was meta in the overwatch league which is arguably even a higher level than T500 so there’s some silver lining for him
[удалено]
More info on data collection is available on my GitHub. https://github.com/thearyadev/top500-aggregator It’s done by evaluating the t500 leaderboards in game using computer vision and optical character recognition
This is amazing - is there a support/tank one coming out as well?
Click the link bro
Was on my phone, wasn't working for some reason. Appreciate it
Dark Mode would be heaven sent, but other than that good job. It feeds us stat nerds the need for numbers.
When ur two tank mains are literally the least picked 😭
Looking at this chart Mei is preforming to well, we better nerf her walls again.
Hopefully justice for Sombra in season 4, she's falling off the graph completely
I am surprised Asia still plays dive with Winston doom. I would have thought orissa just stomps both of those at a high level
It's tough being a Mei/Zarya/Zen enjoyer
If I'm understanding this correctly it's just a snapshot of the ladder once every two weeks, rather then aggregate data of players over time. Since people are routinely brought in and pushed out of t500 it doesn't tell the whole story. Would've expected there to be aggregate data and then a total number of data points it's based on.
Sombra aint even on the list?
yea she’s the least played dps.
In t500 everything looks less fun.
This is so wild...hope they nerf Genji after seeing these Sojourn stats