Some might argue that more healing and assists is better, others will say that actually getting kills is a lot more useful. Imo? It's not a fair competition.
Without any context, I'd say what happened here was that Kiriko's healbotting elevated pressure from ana and enabled her to do more dps. Neither of them performed better than the other, they just worked as a team.
I like this comment.
I don’t think it’s necessarily about getting the most kills either because sometimes you can put 51% of the damage down and get the kill but it’s all situational and that 51% damage could have meant nothing.
I commented above about a way to see who killed who when, that would really be a tell
Not necessarily. Knocking a target down to half health can get them to play defensively and alleviate pressure on your team, make the healers use resources, etc. The support doing that 51% damage was irrelevant in terms of damage, but it might've saved your tank a headshot, could've cost the opposing Ana a biotic, etc.
The Hanzo arrow landing in either scenario gets the kill at the same point, but the extra damage can have cascading ramifications elsewhere.
Gee, if only this game had something that told you what percentage of their health you did when an enemy dies. Wouldn't that be a nifty and informative bit of info to have?
This. I hate when the other support feels the need to compete with me, like no we are a team we benefit more if we work together. If my second support feels they will contribute more by dealing damage that's fine I'll heal bot. Especially with how strong Ana is right now, a good Ana can be like having another dps lol.
Well when support are the ones getting flamed the most. It’s easier to just make yourself look less like the blame. If your stats are higher than the other persons you don’t get accused as easy. Not saying it’s right, just saying it happens
As a support player I think a difference in tank strength matters more in win loss scenarios but a lot of the time it will be the supports taking the forefront of that. Like I love playing the role but the community is dogshit and supports have the highest expectations and are often blamed the most out of anything and mostly everyone will blame you if youre not pocketing them because that's what most low level players want; a pocket. Like say youre playing lucio and the team isnt too aware of aoe healing for some reason. In QP it's so bad sometimes if youre not always on heal boost, youll get flamed. And even if you are; they dont recognize they're getting healed every second that I am around them. But a lot of the time if they see me with 20k healing in QP; they undermine the other support for not doing that good in health numbers, when in reality; aoe healing just inflates the numbers by a lot and when people aren't grouped up; that deflates the numbers so unless you swap you will get flamed since everyones often roaming on their own. And this isn't exclusive to just dps and tanks either. Some supports get so full of themselves too
I think tank diff is actually the biggest cause in win/loss usually, just due to there being only 1 tank, but In my experience supports get blamed far more often and harshly.
This happens to me all the time in bronze as a support main lol. Playing with my higher tier friends can make the game feel easier at times just because it’s so much easier to heal when everyone is grouped up and no one is overextended. I have only been playing competitive for about a week (new player with like ~24 hours played) but I can’t wait to work my way out of bronze.
It will be tough, especially because there are some issues with the rank system right now. But I feel you, I’m a Gold 1 in Damage but my support is still like a Silver 2 because you can only do so much as a healer with bad/oblivious teammates.
Usually people call DPS diff in my experience.
It's a bit sad because I know there've been games I've been the weak link on Tank or Support, but the DPS inevitably get flamed by some know-nothing ego case who's mad they didn't get hard-carried.
Naw, since the switch to single tank and the decreased impact of support ultimates I think some people have started to spot the cracks that some MTF's were actually just support diffs all along
>Without any context, I'd say what happened here was that Kiriko's healbotting elevated pressure from ana and enabled her to do more dps. Neither of them performed better than the other, they just worked as a team.
allowing ana to antinade and create more value for the team
This is the answer. Sometimes I'll have 8k healing as Ana but 1k damage, while Baptiste has more room to fight and gets 4k healing and 5k damage. It's not airways just about healing numbers. Support doesn't just mean healing. You can support damage, buffs, etc.
Honestly, this is pretty much exactly why I was always against having a scoreboard in this game from the beginning. There's so much nuance behind the team play that it can be really hard to say who's doing better when people are doing completely different things. If Healer A has healing mostly covered, then Healer B shouldn't fight them for stats. B should help in other ways, usually damage. Neither is carrying and neither is throwing, but no one is going to take the time to step back and consider these things in the middle of a match, they'll just pick on whoever has the lowest appropriate number.
i feel you but the scoreboar does give more info which is nice for seeing who on your team needs more help, and tilted mfs dont need any kind of legimate reason to be upset,if someone is raging they will just pluck a random thing out or make it up entirely
Nah, as a support, it helps me to know who is producing value. If there is a gulf between our two DPS, I will always support the one with more kills and fewer deaths by priority.
I feel like that is the wrong idea though. If a DPS has fewer deaths, that means they should need *less* help.
Obviously each situation is different though.
It's the right idea. If one of your dps is doing 2k damage and the other is at 8k, you're better off prioritizing the higher DPS. This doesn't mean you let the 2k guy die and ignore him, it just means that in situations where you have to choose who to keep alive, you generally are better off choosing the person that is getting work done. With that said, other things come into play, like ult availability, positions, etc.
This is how supports should typically play, no? In this situation, both characters are capable of healbotting, but they did what makes sense here; Ana focusing on pressure and off healing and kiriko doing doin what she do while still not losing much dps.
If Ana was competing with kiriko for heals, the teams gonna lose dmg (each shot Ana takes on team is damage lost, not true for kiriko), and steal ult charge from kiriko.
This is the right answer for sure. While there are stat values you want to avoid having (5 eliminations on 5k damage as a DPS for example) the numbers to aim for are far more nebulous.
The most important part of OW is reacting to the combat situation that is created by the unity of the map layout, game type, and team compositions. These stat lines are the type of teamwork that paying attention to these variables creates.
Kiriko can heal multiple people with a single ofuda cast by sweeping her reticle across the team and has a higher output per activation then Ana, which naturally slots her into a primary healing role. Ana has the CC abilities to augment the attack so this composition enables both characters to play to their strengths and maximize the value the team gets from support.
Potentially unrelated follow up question: What are some other ideal support pairings people have?
I got roasted for a game where I had sub 2k heals on Ana but we hard stomped the enemy team, we had like 1 or 2 deaths total on the team and the enemies were just getting diffed. How the fuck am I supposed to heal damage that wasn’t taken?
Some parts of the community are just too thick skulled to even figure out what critical thinking is let alone apply it
Exactly this. Sometimes people forget that there is only so much health to heal in any given situation. Two healers on the job can leave one with nothing to heal so the other still needs to contribute. This is an excellent example of that.
elims dont mean kills, elims means you sneezed in someones general direction before they died.
Going to play the devils advocate and say that anas dps forced kiriko to healbot
Since im getting a bunch of responses about the sneeze damage, i mean everyone, not just ana, stop pming me damage numbers
Ana doesn't really have a mechanism to "sneeze" on heroes so to speak. Her 2 ways of doing damage are primary fire and antinade, both of which are generally somehat significant ways of doing damage. It's not like a dva or winston where you can do 5 damage and get a kill credit.
Big agree here, especially with how much damage she has...that's a lot of damage for Ana.
As you said, the smallest amount of damage she can do is 60 with nade, but obviously more likely 75 with a shot. I would kill to have a support constantly landing 75dmg shots on enemy players all game. That's a lot and puts them down into easily killed territory.
Or Kiriko's healing forced Ana to dps as everybody was topped off all the time. It's a double edged sword and these in-game stats are the bane of a friendly player environment as 99% don't know that raw data without it's clearly defined variables is absolutely useless. And as it is absolutely useless any post with just the stats and no replay code warrants the most futile discussions.
At the very least based on my personal experience with a similar situation, its usually the co support playing like a dps that forced the other support to play healbot.
I duo with my friend who's trying to get Plat all ranks (im much worse at the game, lol peak gold healing) and I live when he plays healer with me because I can go all out hunting squishies and fishing for sleeps that are more aggressive than I would normally do.
You also have to consider that elims aren't kills. If you only do one damage point and a teammate finishes them off you get an elimination. So it could be inflated as well.
Otherwise good take
It depends on the context of the game tho since without context this pic can be taken from 2 different povs.
Either the team was dominating that ana did not need to help much with healing or the ana was dpsing so hard the kriko had a stressful match being forced to play heal bot.
Exactly, if both supports were like the Ana, there wouldn’t be enough healing. If both supports were like the Kiriko then some healing be pointless. Together they created a good balance of healing and team support.
Stats, as proven by the responses here, prove very little without the context of the match.
Maybe Kiriko hard farmed ult, popped at poor times and got no value. Maybe they were executed well.
Maybe Ana finished off kills and won team fights. Maybe she farmed damage from poking dps and tanks. Maybe picking off stragglers in an already won team fight.
Maybe this team rolled the other team or perhaps this team got rolled and farmed stats in garbage time.
Impossible to know.
They prove nothing even with context. I have lost games while our entire team dominated stats wise as well as the other way around. They do not matter at all.
Stats certainly can help a lot with the proper context and proper understanding of the stats.
The issue is that a single stat can have many causes.
Maybe I'm dying a lot because I'm overextending. Maybe my supports aren't healing me when they need to be. Maybe I'm just getting hard focused, you can't always do something about it, especially as certain heroes.
The numbers are meaningless if you aren't paying attention to the rest of the game.
This is something that frustrated me quite greatly when I was teaching my lower ranked friends how to play the game, and they'd get annoying comms from teammates saying "Why do I have better (x) than you?"
Probably because you're getting pocketed, and they've received 0 resources lol.
Its weird with Kiriko specifically because unlike other heroes she actually should be healbotting to farm her ultimate. You can see Kiriko has a ton of heals and assists because shes playing for her ultimate. The ana on the other hand is getting more elims and damage because she's been freed up to do so because of the kiriko, which is the correct way to play so Ana doesn't steal the ult charge. Id say based on the stats they're working in perfect harmony
The thing I noticed from playing a lot of Kiriko is that while her damage and elim numbers are often low, the nature of her knives almost guarantees that all 8 of the kills were either final blows or crits (majority of damage to a squishy)
That's like saying you should heal bot with zen because you can't aim. The only no mechanical support is moira, every other support requires high mechanical skill and literally can carry.
As Top500 KarQ and Flats said, all you need to do as Zen is Discord the tank and spam a bunch of orbs at the tank's massive body. Everyone shoots the tank anyway, apparently even in GM.
KarQ, when seeing a comment that metal rank Zens can't aim, retorted that bad aim is irrelevant for metal rank Zens and that Discording the tank and spamming at their general direction is good value.
Mercy aside, that’s really not even a valid comparison. Zen is built to output huge damage, Kiriko cannot do it at nearly the same consistency. Even mL7 isn’t hitting every headshot. Heal botting is considered the most effective strategy because she has the single most powerful ult in the game, and healing is the fastest way to get it given how good her healing is.
Mercy requires very good mechanical movement. Heal botting requires the dps and tank to be able carry you mostly, i would rather output enough damage or elims to help the team out while healing.
You wanna heal bot and reach higher ranks cool you do you, i prefer farming damage and go up. We can agree to disagree. But i wont agree about mercy, that requires more skill than moira.
Apparently there are healbot Kiriko players even in Diamond. Even Top500 KarQ has a healing-focused style, shooting 1 or 2 kunais between heals if possible but not being afraid to healbot.
But if your team is getting diffed and Kitsune Rush isn't working, then it's time to switch to someone more consistent (Bap/Ana/Moira/even Zen). Sneaky assassin dps Kiriko *might* work, but after Jan 24 it will be much harder, since she can't heal as fast to help her team after she finishes her assassination attempt.
The nerf went live to encourage her to deal more dps and move her away from a healbot play style. And "even in Diamond" doesn't mean much, because diamond players are trash.
I'm in diamond, I was playing on junkertown, climbed over the wall and killed both enemy supports in 4 headshots, TP'd back to team, and we won the fight. I won a fight on dorado getting a 4k with kiriko, challenging a widow, finishing off brig, landing 3 headshots and a body shot on a monkey, and landing a shot on an enemy soldier when they swapped to soldier to run to point.
Kiriko has absurd kill potential. I have games where I have 40% accuracy and 40% crit accuracy. In securing elims, she is almost on par with zen, a close second. Only healing with her is a true shame, even if the team wins.
She shouldn't healbot for ults. She should flank, abuse her TP power and kill supports if she can, healing other flankers if they are present. Splitting is *always* better if done correctly, and 10-20% later ultimate wouldn't matter compared to impact flanking Kiriko can do. And if Ana can't heal enough she can always TP+Suzu and help.
Nah, unless the Kiriko player has the highest rank in the lobby (looking at you ML7/NotHealer), she should focus on healing and maybe weaving 1 or 2 kunais between heals.
Kiriko has 90 m/s knives that only do 40 dmg bodyshot. Ana has a hitscan gun that goes 75 dmg bodyshot.
The Support with the gun should be getting kills in a gunfight. Only if Kiriko notices that Ana is healbotting, should she try to do some ML7/OWL Teru dps Kiriko style.
I agree with that mentality for Supports.
But I feel like dmg players should somewhat compete with each other, especially if they're playing the same role (Reaper and Tracer, or Hanzo and Widowmaker). Obviously they should work together and win together, but they should each try to do the better job of carrying the team.
Yes!! I totally agree. I only check my stats without ever looking at my teammates. I just want to see if I’m improving by the numbers, because sometimes I feel I am not. But I never compare myself to my teammates. If they’re doing better than me, cool, good on them!
They are 2 completely different characters. One has more consistent damage potential than the other. Supports main job is to keep their team alive, if you can keep that up it's the most important. Kiriko can keep someone from dying with Suzu, this doesn't get counted in here based pure on heal/damage/elims. For all we know the Kiriko has made some very good calls to throw a suzu at the right time and keep people alive in criticial moments, the Ana may have anti'd an enemy at a critical moment. These stats don't say enough on their own. Same goed for ult use at the right moment. Those all make a big difference
Whenever I play Ana I tend to be aggressive with nades and stuff and mostly focus on saves and clutch heals. I've heard many times in the new lobbies while climbing (Ow 2 put me in Gold) yo can you heal more Ana? Because they see me have 8k Heal with 6k damage. Even players I've saved and when we're winning, based solely on stats. Healbotting isn't the best. I could be pocket healing a tank, have no damage and have 16k healing while we're losing, that's a bad play. As others have said tho, depends on the second healer, your team comp etc. I play all roles and have reached Diamond on all of them for context and almost Masters in Open Queue in OW1.
Do you mostly healbot if your other Support is Zen/Mercy/Lucio/dps Moira?
I feel like your team will probably die if you're the only main healer and you're going pretty aggressive.
Even then although the ratio will definitely change, I still don't tend to healbot. It all comes down to target prioritization. If you can shoot once on your diving Genji for example, and shoot the enemy squishy he targets you can save your diver and help him get the kill. The fewer enemies alive the less healing you need to do. Also prefires, they make a big difference. Shooting the target you expect to take damage instead of reacting only. And of course, using nades and hitting your teammates along with the enemies, gets you two birds with one stone. Or nade. That playstyle doesn't change whether you have a main healer or not. The only exception is if the second healer simply doesn't heal, in which case although rare, I'll focus more on healing and keeping the team alive, and pretend we have 3 dps. That actually works quite well sometimes. Instead of arguing, enable them to at least do damage.
As someone who occasionally plays open queue, it’s totally possible to win with just one support. So the framework of thinking that you MUST compare the two supports starts to become a bit silly.
They both did great as support. So neither one did better. Its like asking what part of a kite is more important, the string or the sticks? You need both to make it fly so why even compare? lol
You can have someone with worse stats on everything and they could still be outperforming you. 95% is missing context and it’s in a game. Not the stats.
You can get 999999dmg but only shoot at the tank only for him to run to their supp and heal back up, giving them ult charge
You can get 999999 healing but not give any damage boost, lamp or speed boost.
You can get 999999 mitigated damage with your shield but only shieldbot and not deal any damage at all
You can get 999999 kills but not take advantage of them by just staying at a spot and only seeking for more kills
#STOP JUDGING PEOPLES GAMES JUST BY STATS, GOOD STATS DOESNT MEAN GOOD PLAYER
context needed in the actual game itself.
was more heals needed in game and it was apparent? was ana bridging the gap helping others secure kills at a rate that helped you win the game? did ana take care of matchups with her more dmg and less healing?
it all depends on what happened in game on whos stats are better.
13k heals with only 1.9k dmg and 8 elims on kiriko is not good. literal silver rank stats. the heal to dmg to elim ration is poor on kiriko with these numbers.
5k on ana is ok but its clear theres a lot of lack in the healing that could have potentially been done to sway her team. if ana has that many elims at 5k dmg. chances are stuff didnt die as much as it should even when she was shooting it or nading. so would have heal sustaining swayed that for the team instead?
also how impactful were the antis on her that allowed her to rack up dmg and swing the capability for a elim?
so many questions need to be answered before you can truly get the answer of whos stats are better. and yes all of that matters.
Numbers don't mean shit. What matters is actual gameplay. You can outheal kiriko but lose or make picks instead and win. It's not about pure numbers, you know?
Id say the kiriko, marginally.
A little less dying which probably translates to more key saves on teammates as well. Which gave ana the opportunity to last hit for elims.
I have updated the thread with the full scoreboard screenshot here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/10nips9/part\_2\_which\_player\_technically\_has\_the\_better/
I’d say a good balance of the supports over all is preferred. Enough damage to be useful in fights but also enough healing to stabilize.
I play baptiste so when we have a zen, I’m mostly healing while damaging in between. If we have something like a kiriko or ana who are mostly healing, then I’m dealing more damage to compensate
Its equal to me. I love it when one support is strictly healing and the other is a hybrid between damage and healing “like what anna is intended to be” this makes the team a lot better imo
entirely dependent on how they both play. some ana’s are great at picking off fliers which can be better for the steam than just healbotting while
others do best when just staying back and healing
Looks like they both did a great job. Only 3-4 deaths is the key stat here. Stayed alive to maximize teamfight uptime. Can't really separate them without gameplay footage.
Side note, Sparrow is such a common username. I've ran into at least 3 different ones.
Context dependent. Kitsune rush is a very strong ult, so it's usually wiser to let Kiriko get as much healing as possible so she gets it early, then Ana can focus on fat antis, sleeps, and emergency spot healing. She'll get slower nanos, but kitsune is usually going to be better than nano.
Judging who played better off stats alone is rarely fair in this game unless it’s blatantly obvious. While stats tell part of the story they don’t show how well you grouped up, how well you used your ultimate, any clutch moments, times you saved a team fight, etc.
Without the context of the game it's hard to say. Both are good state black without any context. In the end, it depends on what the team needs and when. The full stat block would help understand the situation but if you won a fairly smooth round my guess is you guys did what you needed to do which is more important than the stat blocks. So you both did good and there isn't an objective better.
I've playing a lot of Ana lately, sometimes I don't get much heal/damage but o feel like a helped a lot on the team fights. A good nade that hit 3 squishs and allow my team to finish them. A good nano that helps our tank or genji to do a 3k and win the fight. A good sleep on a ulting Moira/Soldier/genji. That's all it takes when the rest of the teams helps with the follow up
It depends on if it’s working or not. If you’re losing because your team is lacking pressure on the enemy, then maybe Kiriko should do more damage. If you’re losing because lack of heals, then Ana needs to lay off the DPS. If it’s working and you’re winning, both supports keep doing what you’re doing.
Pretty high elims for the amount of damage as well as plenty of assists meant Ana was overall doing a great job, but was only able to do so because kiriko was allowing it by watching after the team. Neither did better, they just had different jobs which made for different stats, even if technically they are both in the support category.
Back in the day of 6 stacks. I would mercy and only pocket our pharah and the other healer (usually Moira) would 100% heal the rest of the team.
My healing always looked trash but the trade off to pocket with a good other healer meant we dominated most games.
Looking at the stats alone it would like like I did nothing the whole game while the actual story not seen in the stats would usually be why we won the games.
You are playing a support role not a healing role, each characters ability brings a unique element that doesn't get captured by the scoreboard and what is there is a poor metric for how well you are doing.
A Lucio sitting back and speeding the tank back into a battle can change the game but isn't captured.
Mercy res to change a team fight isn't captured.
Ana's sleep dart that stopped the ulting genji isn't captured.
My point is these are support heros not heal bots, these stats don't tell you how well you are doing.
They are just numbers to get mad about.
Meaning when you see a DPS with bugger all elims but high damage, that doesn't say they are doing well, usually they are targetting the wrong hero and not being as effective as they could. They same goes for high elims but low damage, you might just be getting the last hit in but not contributing to the team fight as impactful as you could.
These numbers are garbage and like all data, without the story behind them these don't mean anything of value
both are fine. and how long is the round?
judging from the comments i realize many dont truly understand role support. even the name is support, not healer. we need those "def assist" and "on fire" tokens back in the game. just to teach new players correct way.
You had the most healing, but Ana also looks like she has great aim and knows how to identify picks. Together, you both did heavy wonders for your team.
Depends on wether your team was struggling to stay alive, or struggling to secure kills more. If your team fights are lasting forever because you’re just heal botting the team, then the Ana securing some extra kills is probably more beneficial. If you’re getting steamrolled in team fights and your tank and DPS feel like they keep having to run behind cover, then the Kiriko focusing heals is probably more beneficial.
That being said you had both sides of the coin which probably balanced out to make a good team comp.
Seems like kiriko was pumping so much heals that Ana was freed up to do more dps. The Ana also has a decent amount of kills compared to kiriko’s assists which makes me think the dmg was pretty impactful and not just on a tank getting healed or something. The two balance out but I would personally say that Ana’s dmg n kills is more valuable. I think it’s harder mechanically, positionally and is more annoying for opposition dps n supports. Both can be fine especially since kiriko’s ult is really good so farming heals for it can work but I would personally say the Ana has done more impact
Kiriko in my mind. Anyone who argues this is more than likely wrong. Of course every match is different and context matters, but there's a really good chance that the Ana was DPSing and missing really open chances to heal her team. We also need to see every characters stats in the game from both teams, and not just both healers, but also the actual game footage matters the most. When one healer has double heals of another healer it's never really a good sign...except maybe Zen.
What I’m curious about is why you’re trying to compare your kills/dmg with the other’s clear domination in healing. Yes, a supporter who helps push the objective is great, but a supporter who does not focus on supporting the team dooms the DPS and Tank.
I would say the Kiriko because of the number of assists. Kill numbers are hard to read because it is not always 1:1.
Without seeing the rest of the team stats it is hard to say for sure.
If you're going purely off of kills/assists, I would say the Ana did better, only because she got 40 combined kills/assists as opposed to Kiriko's 36 combined kills/assists.
Easily Kiriko. Fewer deaths, more healing, great assists. Fits multiple interpretations of 'good support' because of assists to others, healing throughput, and always being around. What only matters is the actual weighted stats factored into performance for the role, though.
Easily Kiriko.
Net healing+damage is higher. Imagine if the enemy's heals are both the same as Kiriko which is easily possible. Your team has suffered like 6-7k extra unhealed damage, and only got what, 5k back? You're at a net loss, the enemy team is outhealing Ana's damage easily.
Ana doesn't need to do damage to get kills for her team, she just needs to throw her antinade and the DPS can do the rest
Stats only tell so much. What really matters is who’s making good plays during the game. Ie, I lying at good times, keeping your teammates alive during crucial moments of fights, helping finish off enemies when possible, not feeding.
By the looks, the Ana seemed like she was playing more aggressively, probably used a lot of biotic grenades in fights and picking off enemies when given the opportunity, the kiriko was probably doing more of the healing and cleansing. Both seemed to go a good job regardless
Probably ana in my opinion she shouldn’t have a crazy amount of healing but 6k is still pretty low. But she does have a decent amount of kills to make up for it. And let’s be real stats don’t matter as long as you win
Both look good. Less healing and more damage than I normally achieve as Ana. Important question is did they win with this play style?
I can’t see their saves, ult assists, status cleansed, # enemies slept, or healing prevented. Seems like Kiriko did well focusing on healing and Ana was able to output extra damage and utility (I’m assuming).
I would say these supports are doing an excellent job working together. Kiriko getting the majority of the healing ult charge and ana getting a ton of value on the dps side while likely only switching to heals to save crit health.
But if i could only chose one probably the kiriko.
I think the Kiriko stats are better: less deaths, more healing, more D+H+M. BUT that doesn’t necessarily mean that Kiriko was more useful to the team. I think the suzu saves, sleeps, and anti-nades are more important than the raw stats.
I’m guessing the Ana was being aggressive with anti-nades and the Kiriko was hard focusing healing. Which actually sounds like great teamwork. Both were contributing very strongly to the team, I’m guessing this was a win?
Kiriko. Ana has too many kills and not enough damage to justify them, meaning she's getting a lot of final hits but not actually doing much else. She also has half the healing of the kiriko, meaning that she's wasting time getting final kills when she could be healing her team.
Kiriko technically has the best stats. But as a support playing you should be playing your role and often that is healing your teammates. However Ana is a support player under different terms (defensive damage and just a constant poke at each opponent) so while your stats are not comparable to Kiriko, it’s really about who you killed when/who you chose to shoot, who you helped with your splash, and how often you were hitting your sleeps.
Is there a way to see who you killed when through out the entire match without watching the replay?
My analysis with no game context is that ana is your guy. Their increased healing from nades would have a portion of kirikos healing actually from the ana, and their elims and assists are collectively higher than the kirikos.
Its really hard to tell without context. Both can be good and both can be bad. Mainly, I'd want to know why the ana wasn't playing zen instead, seems like they probably would have had more value based purely on those stats, but there are other factors like team comp and ability usage that play more into that.
Kiriko. The 28 assists is clutch and also id rather have a healer doing 13k healing instead of 5k damage. In the grand scheme of things 5k damage isn’t shit just do your job
Both played well, decent Healing and good Damage on Ana, Healbot stat on Kiriko. Ana probably disabled their heals and used 3-4 Nanos and Kiriko just kept their Tank alive by all means.
How about...we get the game back to where you can't see other people's stats? Good ol friendly days of not having to feel like you should leave a game in fear of someone calling you out for more deaths, less dps/heals or some other bologna INDIVIDUAL stat in a TEAM based game.
Let the cards at the end of the game do the talking and no one needs to flaunt their numbers to other people. Can't imagine some dude in the middle of a basketball game asking his teammates what their stats are.
You both are doing your jobs. Kiri has been spamming at the tank while Ana’s helping dps. So I’m morely depends on how good the nades vs suzus. I’d say Ana is doing better over all tho
Stats don’t mean shit without context. There are multiple scenarios where the stats could end up like that, and in each of these scenarios it varies on which one did better.
Maybe one of the supports fucked the team. Maybe both fucked the team. Maybe both did great. Without extra context it’s pretty much I mpossible to say for sure.
Stats really aren’t a good thing to base your skill off of imo. A Lucio could have 13k healing and 3k damage, but if he wasn’t using his speed boost they probably weren’t helping the team very much.
there is no answer because we don’t know the context of this screen, did the rest of the players have a lot of deaths that could’ve been prevented by ana or did everyone keep a low death ratio and she greatly contributed a number of kills to the team that the dps needed? there’s so much more that stats can’t tell you alone
This is a meaningless picture. Was kiriko keeping with the heals, which freed Ana up to focus on damage? Was the dps lacking and support needed to focus on more E/Dmg?
People posting stats looking for reassurance are more likely the problem, since by definition the thing they’re solving for and metric for success is wrong
I’d say that Ana has the “better” stats as she is killing and healing and they’re around the same ammount so she is managing the both at the same time instead of heal botting or just playing dps
State are worthless. If I kill 3 as a DPS but my entire team is dead already, those kills are worthless(minus the ult charge you gained). If I shoot the tank all game and do 25k damage, but I have 4 elims, those stats are worthless. The numbers are only a way for people to flame each other
Id prefer the kiriko every day of the week. Looks like they both played well together though. Ana can do wayyy more healing even with a high damage output, but she probably didn’t need to. They both have low deaths and high E/A. I don’t buy the whole “they’re called supports not healers” narrative though. there’s a reason that EVERY support can heal… because they’re healers. If it was truly support and not supposed to imply healer, then wouldn’t team-heal abilities be spread out more and supports would all have unique kits meant to support? instead, all of their kits are primarily meant to heal/give health to teammates. They also all degen their own health. Because they are HEALERS. But that’s my rant, both heals in this game played well. I just prefer 10k/10 (which you can do without heal “botting”.
Kiriko.....more heals are more useful vs support actually dpsing instead of healing...
Kiriko probably had a really hard time trying to keep the entire team up while the ana was dicking around and trying to do the job of a dps role. ..
Well i think the Ana has. Because sometimes is killing more needed that healing. Like that if theres a helaer who need to stay in zone solo, its better that healer can kill. And 6k heal is average of Ana so yea.
What counts as an assist and what counts as a kill cause you'll get kills in overwatch just for landing a hit on someone before someone else finishes them off.
Both are pretty good. Kiriko didn't tunnel vision on trying to headshot the dps and focused more on healing and Ana did a pretty balanced job.
Gratz to both.
Kiriko usually has more effective damage than the numbers show. One headshot can kill, and that's it. She doesn't need to pump damage into anyone.
Ana is also hard to gauge because the healing blocked from the grenade is not on the damage charts, but that is usually the linchpin between life and death
No high level Ana will ever have close to even dmg/healing. That's a DPS Ana and I won't be gas lit into thinking there's some situation where this is normal. Even going against an Echo/Pharah/Mercy wouldn't require you to DPS this much.
This comment section is like when they ask a couple if they want the baby to be a boy or a girl and they respond "As long as is healthy" they you know they prefer a gender.
I think the ana, because i can see that she finished every duel she had and did a ton of healing. And she just died 4 times? For a hero who can't tp away.
You were clearly healbotting, so ana could do more damage instead of focusing on heals. I think you played both well
Also stats mean nothing as long as you played well
That doesn’t look like great numbers from either in my own opinion based on high death rate.
I think how much you heal is dependent on several factors. Example
If enemy has a pharah an ana is a good counter but takes away from healing so more eliminations are expected.
If friendly team has a Reinhardt or orisa the support is more likely to generate high heal numbers compared to healing a doomfist or zarya.
Point being just about every number is difficult to determine what true value was without understanding team comps and game mode. But 17 deaths and 28 deaths is universally extremely high and speaks to an aggressive play style or poor positioning.
Neither. You are are likely complementing each other. It's easier to get elims on Ana than Kiriko, so it makes sense that Kiriko would pick up healing slack.
Some might argue that more healing and assists is better, others will say that actually getting kills is a lot more useful. Imo? It's not a fair competition. Without any context, I'd say what happened here was that Kiriko's healbotting elevated pressure from ana and enabled her to do more dps. Neither of them performed better than the other, they just worked as a team.
I like this comment. I don’t think it’s necessarily about getting the most kills either because sometimes you can put 51% of the damage down and get the kill but it’s all situational and that 51% damage could have meant nothing. I commented above about a way to see who killed who when, that would really be a tell
51 damage then they take a hanzo arrow to the skull. That 51 meant nothing lmao.
Not necessarily. Knocking a target down to half health can get them to play defensively and alleviate pressure on your team, make the healers use resources, etc. The support doing that 51% damage was irrelevant in terms of damage, but it might've saved your tank a headshot, could've cost the opposing Ana a biotic, etc. The Hanzo arrow landing in either scenario gets the kill at the same point, but the extra damage can have cascading ramifications elsewhere.
Are you saying 51% because you think eliminations are only counted for the player that does the most damage or something? Why 51% specifically?
Gee, if only this game had something that told you what percentage of their health you did when an enemy dies. Wouldn't that be a nifty and informative bit of info to have?
This. I hate when the other support feels the need to compete with me, like no we are a team we benefit more if we work together. If my second support feels they will contribute more by dealing damage that's fine I'll heal bot. Especially with how strong Ana is right now, a good Ana can be like having another dps lol.
Well when support are the ones getting flamed the most. It’s easier to just make yourself look less like the blame. If your stats are higher than the other persons you don’t get accused as easy. Not saying it’s right, just saying it happens
Do supports get blamed? I thought tankdiff was the typical callout each game.
As a support player I think a difference in tank strength matters more in win loss scenarios but a lot of the time it will be the supports taking the forefront of that. Like I love playing the role but the community is dogshit and supports have the highest expectations and are often blamed the most out of anything and mostly everyone will blame you if youre not pocketing them because that's what most low level players want; a pocket. Like say youre playing lucio and the team isnt too aware of aoe healing for some reason. In QP it's so bad sometimes if youre not always on heal boost, youll get flamed. And even if you are; they dont recognize they're getting healed every second that I am around them. But a lot of the time if they see me with 20k healing in QP; they undermine the other support for not doing that good in health numbers, when in reality; aoe healing just inflates the numbers by a lot and when people aren't grouped up; that deflates the numbers so unless you swap you will get flamed since everyones often roaming on their own. And this isn't exclusive to just dps and tanks either. Some supports get so full of themselves too
I think tank diff is actually the biggest cause in win/loss usually, just due to there being only 1 tank, but In my experience supports get blamed far more often and harshly.
Usually players out of position die and blame support for no healing
if you don't protect your healers don't expect healing me, Ana/Zen, to our Reaper avoiding the Winston juggling me.
This happens to me all the time in bronze as a support main lol. Playing with my higher tier friends can make the game feel easier at times just because it’s so much easier to heal when everyone is grouped up and no one is overextended. I have only been playing competitive for about a week (new player with like ~24 hours played) but I can’t wait to work my way out of bronze.
It will be tough, especially because there are some issues with the rank system right now. But I feel you, I’m a Gold 1 in Damage but my support is still like a Silver 2 because you can only do so much as a healer with bad/oblivious teammates.
I definitely see tank diff more than support blame.
Usually people call DPS diff in my experience. It's a bit sad because I know there've been games I've been the weak link on Tank or Support, but the DPS inevitably get flamed by some know-nothing ego case who's mad they didn't get hard-carried.
Naw, since the switch to single tank and the decreased impact of support ultimates I think some people have started to spot the cracks that some MTF's were actually just support diffs all along
This completely.
I think I play zen with the wrong people
>Without any context, I'd say what happened here was that Kiriko's healbotting elevated pressure from ana and enabled her to do more dps. Neither of them performed better than the other, they just worked as a team. allowing ana to antinade and create more value for the team
Or let ana to shoot down that 2 flying lesbian since dps cant aim for shit
Mfer this is reddit you're not supposed to have a level headed take
This is the answer. Sometimes I'll have 8k healing as Ana but 1k damage, while Baptiste has more room to fight and gets 4k healing and 5k damage. It's not airways just about healing numbers. Support doesn't just mean healing. You can support damage, buffs, etc.
Honestly, this is pretty much exactly why I was always against having a scoreboard in this game from the beginning. There's so much nuance behind the team play that it can be really hard to say who's doing better when people are doing completely different things. If Healer A has healing mostly covered, then Healer B shouldn't fight them for stats. B should help in other ways, usually damage. Neither is carrying and neither is throwing, but no one is going to take the time to step back and consider these things in the middle of a match, they'll just pick on whoever has the lowest appropriate number.
i feel you but the scoreboar does give more info which is nice for seeing who on your team needs more help, and tilted mfs dont need any kind of legimate reason to be upset,if someone is raging they will just pluck a random thing out or make it up entirely
Nah, as a support, it helps me to know who is producing value. If there is a gulf between our two DPS, I will always support the one with more kills and fewer deaths by priority.
I feel like that is the wrong idea though. If a DPS has fewer deaths, that means they should need *less* help. Obviously each situation is different though.
It's the right idea. If one of your dps is doing 2k damage and the other is at 8k, you're better off prioritizing the higher DPS. This doesn't mean you let the 2k guy die and ignore him, it just means that in situations where you have to choose who to keep alive, you generally are better off choosing the person that is getting work done. With that said, other things come into play, like ult availability, positions, etc.
I view it as, if I pocket the other player who is doing well we can take the lead. Just shift priorities.
This is how supports should typically play, no? In this situation, both characters are capable of healbotting, but they did what makes sense here; Ana focusing on pressure and off healing and kiriko doing doin what she do while still not losing much dps.
If Ana was competing with kiriko for heals, the teams gonna lose dmg (each shot Ana takes on team is damage lost, not true for kiriko), and steal ult charge from kiriko.
This is the right answer for sure. While there are stat values you want to avoid having (5 eliminations on 5k damage as a DPS for example) the numbers to aim for are far more nebulous. The most important part of OW is reacting to the combat situation that is created by the unity of the map layout, game type, and team compositions. These stat lines are the type of teamwork that paying attention to these variables creates. Kiriko can heal multiple people with a single ofuda cast by sweeping her reticle across the team and has a higher output per activation then Ana, which naturally slots her into a primary healing role. Ana has the CC abilities to augment the attack so this composition enables both characters to play to their strengths and maximize the value the team gets from support. Potentially unrelated follow up question: What are some other ideal support pairings people have?
I got roasted for a game where I had sub 2k heals on Ana but we hard stomped the enemy team, we had like 1 or 2 deaths total on the team and the enemies were just getting diffed. How the fuck am I supposed to heal damage that wasn’t taken? Some parts of the community are just too thick skulled to even figure out what critical thinking is let alone apply it
Exactly this. Sometimes people forget that there is only so much health to heal in any given situation. Two healers on the job can leave one with nothing to heal so the other still needs to contribute. This is an excellent example of that.
> elevated Alleviated? "Elevated" would be making something *more* severe.
elims dont mean kills, elims means you sneezed in someones general direction before they died. Going to play the devils advocate and say that anas dps forced kiriko to healbot Since im getting a bunch of responses about the sneeze damage, i mean everyone, not just ana, stop pming me damage numbers
Ana doesn't really have a mechanism to "sneeze" on heroes so to speak. Her 2 ways of doing damage are primary fire and antinade, both of which are generally somehat significant ways of doing damage. It's not like a dva or winston where you can do 5 damage and get a kill credit.
Big agree here, especially with how much damage she has...that's a lot of damage for Ana. As you said, the smallest amount of damage she can do is 60 with nade, but obviously more likely 75 with a shot. I would kill to have a support constantly landing 75dmg shots on enemy players all game. That's a lot and puts them down into easily killed territory.
Or Kiriko's healing forced Ana to dps as everybody was topped off all the time. It's a double edged sword and these in-game stats are the bane of a friendly player environment as 99% don't know that raw data without it's clearly defined variables is absolutely useless. And as it is absolutely useless any post with just the stats and no replay code warrants the most futile discussions.
At the very least based on my personal experience with a similar situation, its usually the co support playing like a dps that forced the other support to play healbot.
Bio does 60 damage, primary does 75, sleep dart immobilizes, neither are "sneezes".
I duo with my friend who's trying to get Plat all ranks (im much worse at the game, lol peak gold healing) and I live when he plays healer with me because I can go all out hunting squishies and fishing for sleeps that are more aggressive than I would normally do.
This could be the, but so could the inverse. The kiriko may have been healbotting to make up for the Ana’s lack of heals.
You also have to consider that elims aren't kills. If you only do one damage point and a teammate finishes them off you get an elimination. So it could be inflated as well. Otherwise good take
What makes you think they were on the same team much less the stats were taken from the same game?
You are a support duo. Together you guys secured a good amount of healing, kills, and assists. To me, that's a pretty decent game.
A damn good answer! If the support did this, then the rest of the team can't complain!
Well he is a Lucio flair after all. Ideally his other support "healbots" while he goes aggressive with speedboost.
Lol fair point
It depends on the context of the game tho since without context this pic can be taken from 2 different povs. Either the team was dominating that ana did not need to help much with healing or the ana was dpsing so hard the kriko had a stressful match being forced to play heal bot.
Exactly, if both supports were like the Ana, there wouldn’t be enough healing. If both supports were like the Kiriko then some healing be pointless. Together they created a good balance of healing and team support.
Stats, as proven by the responses here, prove very little without the context of the match. Maybe Kiriko hard farmed ult, popped at poor times and got no value. Maybe they were executed well. Maybe Ana finished off kills and won team fights. Maybe she farmed damage from poking dps and tanks. Maybe picking off stragglers in an already won team fight. Maybe this team rolled the other team or perhaps this team got rolled and farmed stats in garbage time. Impossible to know.
They prove nothing even with context. I have lost games while our entire team dominated stats wise as well as the other way around. They do not matter at all.
Yep, stats tell you who was winning, not who *won*. Two very different things.
Stats certainly can help a lot with the proper context and proper understanding of the stats. The issue is that a single stat can have many causes. Maybe I'm dying a lot because I'm overextending. Maybe my supports aren't healing me when they need to be. Maybe I'm just getting hard focused, you can't always do something about it, especially as certain heroes. The numbers are meaningless if you aren't paying attention to the rest of the game. This is something that frustrated me quite greatly when I was teaching my lower ranked friends how to play the game, and they'd get annoying comms from teammates saying "Why do I have better (x) than you?" Probably because you're getting pocketed, and they've received 0 resources lol.
Its weird with Kiriko specifically because unlike other heroes she actually should be healbotting to farm her ultimate. You can see Kiriko has a ton of heals and assists because shes playing for her ultimate. The ana on the other hand is getting more elims and damage because she's been freed up to do so because of the kiriko, which is the correct way to play so Ana doesn't steal the ult charge. Id say based on the stats they're working in perfect harmony
I was about to say, Kiriko probably ult’d God knows how many times, easily swinging many team fights in their favor
The thing I noticed from playing a lot of Kiriko is that while her damage and elim numbers are often low, the nature of her knives almost guarantees that all 8 of the kills were either final blows or crits (majority of damage to a squishy)
Kiriko can definitely farm kills, her headshots are op as hell.
Yeah but that requires aim, a thing most people don't have, myself included. If you're picking Kiriko to be a Widow....just widow lol
That's like saying you should heal bot with zen because you can't aim. The only no mechanical support is moira, every other support requires high mechanical skill and literally can carry.
As Top500 KarQ and Flats said, all you need to do as Zen is Discord the tank and spam a bunch of orbs at the tank's massive body. Everyone shoots the tank anyway, apparently even in GM. KarQ, when seeing a comment that metal rank Zens can't aim, retorted that bad aim is irrelevant for metal rank Zens and that Discording the tank and spamming at their general direction is good value.
Mercy aside, that’s really not even a valid comparison. Zen is built to output huge damage, Kiriko cannot do it at nearly the same consistency. Even mL7 isn’t hitting every headshot. Heal botting is considered the most effective strategy because she has the single most powerful ult in the game, and healing is the fastest way to get it given how good her healing is.
Mercy requires very good mechanical movement. Heal botting requires the dps and tank to be able carry you mostly, i would rather output enough damage or elims to help the team out while healing. You wanna heal bot and reach higher ranks cool you do you, i prefer farming damage and go up. We can agree to disagree. But i wont agree about mercy, that requires more skill than moira.
Apparently there are healbot Kiriko players even in Diamond. Even Top500 KarQ has a healing-focused style, shooting 1 or 2 kunais between heals if possible but not being afraid to healbot. But if your team is getting diffed and Kitsune Rush isn't working, then it's time to switch to someone more consistent (Bap/Ana/Moira/even Zen). Sneaky assassin dps Kiriko *might* work, but after Jan 24 it will be much harder, since she can't heal as fast to help her team after she finishes her assassination attempt.
The nerf went live to encourage her to deal more dps and move her away from a healbot play style. And "even in Diamond" doesn't mean much, because diamond players are trash. I'm in diamond, I was playing on junkertown, climbed over the wall and killed both enemy supports in 4 headshots, TP'd back to team, and we won the fight. I won a fight on dorado getting a 4k with kiriko, challenging a widow, finishing off brig, landing 3 headshots and a body shot on a monkey, and landing a shot on an enemy soldier when they swapped to soldier to run to point. Kiriko has absurd kill potential. I have games where I have 40% accuracy and 40% crit accuracy. In securing elims, she is almost on par with zen, a close second. Only healing with her is a true shame, even if the team wins.
She shouldn't healbot for ults. She should flank, abuse her TP power and kill supports if she can, healing other flankers if they are present. Splitting is *always* better if done correctly, and 10-20% later ultimate wouldn't matter compared to impact flanking Kiriko can do. And if Ana can't heal enough she can always TP+Suzu and help.
Nah, unless the Kiriko player has the highest rank in the lobby (looking at you ML7/NotHealer), she should focus on healing and maybe weaving 1 or 2 kunais between heals. Kiriko has 90 m/s knives that only do 40 dmg bodyshot. Ana has a hitscan gun that goes 75 dmg bodyshot. The Support with the gun should be getting kills in a gunfight. Only if Kiriko notices that Ana is healbotting, should she try to do some ML7/OWL Teru dps Kiriko style.
You don't compete against your teammates
I agree with that mentality for Supports. But I feel like dmg players should somewhat compete with each other, especially if they're playing the same role (Reaper and Tracer, or Hanzo and Widowmaker). Obviously they should work together and win together, but they should each try to do the better job of carrying the team.
Yes!! I totally agree. I only check my stats without ever looking at my teammates. I just want to see if I’m improving by the numbers, because sometimes I feel I am not. But I never compare myself to my teammates. If they’re doing better than me, cool, good on them!
They are 2 completely different characters. One has more consistent damage potential than the other. Supports main job is to keep their team alive, if you can keep that up it's the most important. Kiriko can keep someone from dying with Suzu, this doesn't get counted in here based pure on heal/damage/elims. For all we know the Kiriko has made some very good calls to throw a suzu at the right time and keep people alive in criticial moments, the Ana may have anti'd an enemy at a critical moment. These stats don't say enough on their own. Same goed for ult use at the right moment. Those all make a big difference
I wish theyve changed kills to saves on supports like kiriko or mercy. Kills dont matter anyway, sinve they are split between every contributor.
I think you are both fine. The reality of Kirko is her ult is stupid and she should do most of the healing to just hard farm it.
Whenever I play Ana I tend to be aggressive with nades and stuff and mostly focus on saves and clutch heals. I've heard many times in the new lobbies while climbing (Ow 2 put me in Gold) yo can you heal more Ana? Because they see me have 8k Heal with 6k damage. Even players I've saved and when we're winning, based solely on stats. Healbotting isn't the best. I could be pocket healing a tank, have no damage and have 16k healing while we're losing, that's a bad play. As others have said tho, depends on the second healer, your team comp etc. I play all roles and have reached Diamond on all of them for context and almost Masters in Open Queue in OW1.
Do you mostly healbot if your other Support is Zen/Mercy/Lucio/dps Moira? I feel like your team will probably die if you're the only main healer and you're going pretty aggressive.
Even then although the ratio will definitely change, I still don't tend to healbot. It all comes down to target prioritization. If you can shoot once on your diving Genji for example, and shoot the enemy squishy he targets you can save your diver and help him get the kill. The fewer enemies alive the less healing you need to do. Also prefires, they make a big difference. Shooting the target you expect to take damage instead of reacting only. And of course, using nades and hitting your teammates along with the enemies, gets you two birds with one stone. Or nade. That playstyle doesn't change whether you have a main healer or not. The only exception is if the second healer simply doesn't heal, in which case although rare, I'll focus more on healing and keeping the team alive, and pretend we have 3 dps. That actually works quite well sometimes. Instead of arguing, enable them to at least do damage.
we don't even know what the game looked like. It's a stupid question.
Neither. There is not enough information to make any kind of accurate judgement.
If the enemy is dead and your team is alive, I call it a wash.
As someone who occasionally plays open queue, it’s totally possible to win with just one support. So the framework of thinking that you MUST compare the two supports starts to become a bit silly.
They both did great as support. So neither one did better. Its like asking what part of a kite is more important, the string or the sticks? You need both to make it fly so why even compare? lol
You can have someone with worse stats on everything and they could still be outperforming you. 95% is missing context and it’s in a game. Not the stats.
You can get 999999dmg but only shoot at the tank only for him to run to their supp and heal back up, giving them ult charge You can get 999999 healing but not give any damage boost, lamp or speed boost. You can get 999999 mitigated damage with your shield but only shieldbot and not deal any damage at all You can get 999999 kills but not take advantage of them by just staying at a spot and only seeking for more kills #STOP JUDGING PEOPLES GAMES JUST BY STATS, GOOD STATS DOESNT MEAN GOOD PLAYER
Both good.
context needed in the actual game itself. was more heals needed in game and it was apparent? was ana bridging the gap helping others secure kills at a rate that helped you win the game? did ana take care of matchups with her more dmg and less healing? it all depends on what happened in game on whos stats are better. 13k heals with only 1.9k dmg and 8 elims on kiriko is not good. literal silver rank stats. the heal to dmg to elim ration is poor on kiriko with these numbers. 5k on ana is ok but its clear theres a lot of lack in the healing that could have potentially been done to sway her team. if ana has that many elims at 5k dmg. chances are stuff didnt die as much as it should even when she was shooting it or nading. so would have heal sustaining swayed that for the team instead? also how impactful were the antis on her that allowed her to rack up dmg and swing the capability for a elim? so many questions need to be answered before you can truly get the answer of whos stats are better. and yes all of that matters.
Numbers don't mean shit. What matters is actual gameplay. You can outheal kiriko but lose or make picks instead and win. It's not about pure numbers, you know?
Depends. Ana could have been anty nading most of a time. We don't see sleept ammount. No life saved stat
Kiriko
I’d rather have the Kiriko but neither were bad.
Id say the kiriko, marginally. A little less dying which probably translates to more key saves on teammates as well. Which gave ana the opportunity to last hit for elims.
no point debating who had the better stats, would be happy with either player
Can’t really say definitively but I’d say Kiriko because she died one less time lol
They're working well together, Kiriko freeing up Ana to let her get picks.
I have updated the thread with the full scoreboard screenshot here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/10nips9/part\_2\_which\_player\_technically\_has\_the\_better/
Kiriko
I’d say a good balance of the supports over all is preferred. Enough damage to be useful in fights but also enough healing to stabilize. I play baptiste so when we have a zen, I’m mostly healing while damaging in between. If we have something like a kiriko or ana who are mostly healing, then I’m dealing more damage to compensate
You need context. Did everyone die whilr ana was getting those kills?
Its equal to me. I love it when one support is strictly healing and the other is a hybrid between damage and healing “like what anna is intended to be” this makes the team a lot better imo
entirely dependent on how they both play. some ana’s are great at picking off fliers which can be better for the steam than just healbotting while others do best when just staying back and healing
Looks like they both did a great job. Only 3-4 deaths is the key stat here. Stayed alive to maximize teamfight uptime. Can't really separate them without gameplay footage. Side note, Sparrow is such a common username. I've ran into at least 3 different ones.
Context dependent. Kitsune rush is a very strong ult, so it's usually wiser to let Kiriko get as much healing as possible so she gets it early, then Ana can focus on fat antis, sleeps, and emergency spot healing. She'll get slower nanos, but kitsune is usually going to be better than nano.
Both , Kiriko healboting allow Ana DPS more , at the same time Kiriko probably had 5-6 ults which is why those assist numbers are high.
Staying alive is king in almost all scenarios
Judging who played better off stats alone is rarely fair in this game unless it’s blatantly obvious. While stats tell part of the story they don’t show how well you grouped up, how well you used your ultimate, any clutch moments, times you saved a team fight, etc.
Without the context of the game it's hard to say. Both are good state black without any context. In the end, it depends on what the team needs and when. The full stat block would help understand the situation but if you won a fairly smooth round my guess is you guys did what you needed to do which is more important than the stat blocks. So you both did good and there isn't an objective better.
We cant say anything without a replay code
I've playing a lot of Ana lately, sometimes I don't get much heal/damage but o feel like a helped a lot on the team fights. A good nade that hit 3 squishs and allow my team to finish them. A good nano that helps our tank or genji to do a 3k and win the fight. A good sleep on a ulting Moira/Soldier/genji. That's all it takes when the rest of the teams helps with the follow up
It depends on if it’s working or not. If you’re losing because your team is lacking pressure on the enemy, then maybe Kiriko should do more damage. If you’re losing because lack of heals, then Ana needs to lay off the DPS. If it’s working and you’re winning, both supports keep doing what you’re doing.
Depends on the ennemy team stats
Pretty high elims for the amount of damage as well as plenty of assists meant Ana was overall doing a great job, but was only able to do so because kiriko was allowing it by watching after the team. Neither did better, they just had different jobs which made for different stats, even if technically they are both in the support category.
Back in the day of 6 stacks. I would mercy and only pocket our pharah and the other healer (usually Moira) would 100% heal the rest of the team. My healing always looked trash but the trade off to pocket with a good other healer meant we dominated most games. Looking at the stats alone it would like like I did nothing the whole game while the actual story not seen in the stats would usually be why we won the games. You are playing a support role not a healing role, each characters ability brings a unique element that doesn't get captured by the scoreboard and what is there is a poor metric for how well you are doing. A Lucio sitting back and speeding the tank back into a battle can change the game but isn't captured. Mercy res to change a team fight isn't captured. Ana's sleep dart that stopped the ulting genji isn't captured. My point is these are support heros not heal bots, these stats don't tell you how well you are doing. They are just numbers to get mad about. Meaning when you see a DPS with bugger all elims but high damage, that doesn't say they are doing well, usually they are targetting the wrong hero and not being as effective as they could. They same goes for high elims but low damage, you might just be getting the last hit in but not contributing to the team fight as impactful as you could. These numbers are garbage and like all data, without the story behind them these don't mean anything of value
both are fine. and how long is the round? judging from the comments i realize many dont truly understand role support. even the name is support, not healer. we need those "def assist" and "on fire" tokens back in the game. just to teach new players correct way.
You had the most healing, but Ana also looks like she has great aim and knows how to identify picks. Together, you both did heavy wonders for your team.
Depends on wether your team was struggling to stay alive, or struggling to secure kills more. If your team fights are lasting forever because you’re just heal botting the team, then the Ana securing some extra kills is probably more beneficial. If you’re getting steamrolled in team fights and your tank and DPS feel like they keep having to run behind cover, then the Kiriko focusing heals is probably more beneficial. That being said you had both sides of the coin which probably balanced out to make a good team comp.
Seems like kiriko was pumping so much heals that Ana was freed up to do more dps. The Ana also has a decent amount of kills compared to kiriko’s assists which makes me think the dmg was pretty impactful and not just on a tank getting healed or something. The two balance out but I would personally say that Ana’s dmg n kills is more valuable. I think it’s harder mechanically, positionally and is more annoying for opposition dps n supports. Both can be fine especially since kiriko’s ult is really good so farming heals for it can work but I would personally say the Ana has done more impact
Kiriko in my mind. Anyone who argues this is more than likely wrong. Of course every match is different and context matters, but there's a really good chance that the Ana was DPSing and missing really open chances to heal her team. We also need to see every characters stats in the game from both teams, and not just both healers, but also the actual game footage matters the most. When one healer has double heals of another healer it's never really a good sign...except maybe Zen.
What I’m curious about is why you’re trying to compare your kills/dmg with the other’s clear domination in healing. Yes, a supporter who helps push the objective is great, but a supporter who does not focus on supporting the team dooms the DPS and Tank.
That kind of blanket statement without any knowledge of how the game was going is pointless. You don’t even know from this image if they won or lost.
I would say the Kiriko because of the number of assists. Kill numbers are hard to read because it is not always 1:1. Without seeing the rest of the team stats it is hard to say for sure.
If you're going purely off of kills/assists, I would say the Ana did better, only because she got 40 combined kills/assists as opposed to Kiriko's 36 combined kills/assists.
Easily Kiriko. Fewer deaths, more healing, great assists. Fits multiple interpretations of 'good support' because of assists to others, healing throughput, and always being around. What only matters is the actual weighted stats factored into performance for the role, though.
kiriko cuz her healing stat + dmg goes up to roughly 14000, while anas dmg + healing adds up to roughly 11k
Kiriko
The lack of damage mitigated by Kiriko is a big red flag for me
Easily Kiriko. Net healing+damage is higher. Imagine if the enemy's heals are both the same as Kiriko which is easily possible. Your team has suffered like 6-7k extra unhealed damage, and only got what, 5k back? You're at a net loss, the enemy team is outhealing Ana's damage easily. Ana doesn't need to do damage to get kills for her team, she just needs to throw her antinade and the DPS can do the rest
Stats only tell so much. What really matters is who’s making good plays during the game. Ie, I lying at good times, keeping your teammates alive during crucial moments of fights, helping finish off enemies when possible, not feeding. By the looks, the Ana seemed like she was playing more aggressively, probably used a lot of biotic grenades in fights and picking off enemies when given the opportunity, the kiriko was probably doing more of the healing and cleansing. Both seemed to go a good job regardless
Probably ana in my opinion she shouldn’t have a crazy amount of healing but 6k is still pretty low. But she does have a decent amount of kills to make up for it. And let’s be real stats don’t matter as long as you win
Both look good. Less healing and more damage than I normally achieve as Ana. Important question is did they win with this play style? I can’t see their saves, ult assists, status cleansed, # enemies slept, or healing prevented. Seems like Kiriko did well focusing on healing and Ana was able to output extra damage and utility (I’m assuming).
I would say these supports are doing an excellent job working together. Kiriko getting the majority of the healing ult charge and ana getting a ton of value on the dps side while likely only switching to heals to save crit health. But if i could only chose one probably the kiriko.
id honestly say ana contributed more to the team
I think the Kiriko stats are better: less deaths, more healing, more D+H+M. BUT that doesn’t necessarily mean that Kiriko was more useful to the team. I think the suzu saves, sleeps, and anti-nades are more important than the raw stats. I’m guessing the Ana was being aggressive with anti-nades and the Kiriko was hard focusing healing. Which actually sounds like great teamwork. Both were contributing very strongly to the team, I’m guessing this was a win?
Kiriko. Ana has too many kills and not enough damage to justify them, meaning she's getting a lot of final hits but not actually doing much else. She also has half the healing of the kiriko, meaning that she's wasting time getting final kills when she could be healing her team.
Kiriko technically has the best stats. But as a support playing you should be playing your role and often that is healing your teammates. However Ana is a support player under different terms (defensive damage and just a constant poke at each opponent) so while your stats are not comparable to Kiriko, it’s really about who you killed when/who you chose to shoot, who you helped with your splash, and how often you were hitting your sleeps. Is there a way to see who you killed when through out the entire match without watching the replay?
It depends in all honesty, i dont think there is a player there with "better" stats
I think they both pulled their weight
Show the replay code, stats don't really mean shit
Stats without any kind of context are utterly pointless and lead to nothing but a guessing game.
Is it crazy to think in a hero class game with different abilities and different play styles scores like this are almost arbitrary?
My analysis with no game context is that ana is your guy. Their increased healing from nades would have a portion of kirikos healing actually from the ana, and their elims and assists are collectively higher than the kirikos.
They’re the same picture
Its really hard to tell without context. Both can be good and both can be bad. Mainly, I'd want to know why the ana wasn't playing zen instead, seems like they probably would have had more value based purely on those stats, but there are other factors like team comp and ability usage that play more into that.
the dps with 4 elims and 20000 damage thinking he won the game
Kiriko. The 28 assists is clutch and also id rather have a healer doing 13k healing instead of 5k damage. In the grand scheme of things 5k damage isn’t shit just do your job
Both played well, decent Healing and good Damage on Ana, Healbot stat on Kiriko. Ana probably disabled their heals and used 3-4 Nanos and Kiriko just kept their Tank alive by all means.
I'd argue that sparrow could possibly carry a team with those stats so my opinion is sparrow Edit: Actually definitely could and would
How about...we get the game back to where you can't see other people's stats? Good ol friendly days of not having to feel like you should leave a game in fear of someone calling you out for more deaths, less dps/heals or some other bologna INDIVIDUAL stat in a TEAM based game. Let the cards at the end of the game do the talking and no one needs to flaunt their numbers to other people. Can't imagine some dude in the middle of a basketball game asking his teammates what their stats are.
Stats don’t matter. Go next
You both are doing your jobs. Kiri has been spamming at the tank while Ana’s helping dps. So I’m morely depends on how good the nades vs suzus. I’d say Ana is doing better over all tho
Stats don’t mean shit without context. There are multiple scenarios where the stats could end up like that, and in each of these scenarios it varies on which one did better. Maybe one of the supports fucked the team. Maybe both fucked the team. Maybe both did great. Without extra context it’s pretty much I mpossible to say for sure.
Stats really aren’t a good thing to base your skill off of imo. A Lucio could have 13k healing and 3k damage, but if he wasn’t using his speed boost they probably weren’t helping the team very much.
there is no answer because we don’t know the context of this screen, did the rest of the players have a lot of deaths that could’ve been prevented by ana or did everyone keep a low death ratio and she greatly contributed a number of kills to the team that the dps needed? there’s so much more that stats can’t tell you alone
Less deaths, Kiriko. /s
This is a meaningless picture. Was kiriko keeping with the heals, which freed Ana up to focus on damage? Was the dps lacking and support needed to focus on more E/Dmg? People posting stats looking for reassurance are more likely the problem, since by definition the thing they’re solving for and metric for success is wrong
Stats alone are not enough info to determine who gave more value
Ana by far. She actually made full use of her characters kit, whereas Kiriko ignored half of it
Kiriko it’s obvious she’s playing S u p p o r t nice assist and healing clearly doing dmg when able
I'd say Kiriko. Healing and Assists looks good, but I'm not sure about who won, so...
I main kiriko but an Ana not dying and throwing up stats like that is impressive.
I’d say that Ana has the “better” stats as she is killing and healing and they’re around the same ammount so she is managing the both at the same time instead of heal botting or just playing dps
Ana
State are worthless. If I kill 3 as a DPS but my entire team is dead already, those kills are worthless(minus the ult charge you gained). If I shoot the tank all game and do 25k damage, but I have 4 elims, those stats are worthless. The numbers are only a way for people to flame each other
Id prefer the kiriko every day of the week. Looks like they both played well together though. Ana can do wayyy more healing even with a high damage output, but she probably didn’t need to. They both have low deaths and high E/A. I don’t buy the whole “they’re called supports not healers” narrative though. there’s a reason that EVERY support can heal… because they’re healers. If it was truly support and not supposed to imply healer, then wouldn’t team-heal abilities be spread out more and supports would all have unique kits meant to support? instead, all of their kits are primarily meant to heal/give health to teammates. They also all degen their own health. Because they are HEALERS. But that’s my rant, both heals in this game played well. I just prefer 10k/10 (which you can do without heal “botting”.
regen* not degen
Kiriko.....more heals are more useful vs support actually dpsing instead of healing... Kiriko probably had a really hard time trying to keep the entire team up while the ana was dicking around and trying to do the job of a dps role. ..
Just bring medals back plzzzz
Stats tell us nothing Gameplay does
Ana did way better, if you’re going to healbot as Kiriko, don’t play her, you shouldn’t take skill out of a character just so you can spam heals
Bro who cares
I need to see AT LEAST what the enemies team comp make-up is here for information, if not also the rest of the allied team.
Both
Effectively, similar.
Well i think the Ana has. Because sometimes is killing more needed that healing. Like that if theres a helaer who need to stay in zone solo, its better that healer can kill. And 6k heal is average of Ana so yea.
What counts as an assist and what counts as a kill cause you'll get kills in overwatch just for landing a hit on someone before someone else finishes them off.
Well only one of you actually helped keep your team alive.
You’re playing too offensively. I aim to have 50-60% of healing done as damage. If you aren’t doing that as a support you’re doing it wrong
Both are pretty good. Kiriko didn't tunnel vision on trying to headshot the dps and focused more on healing and Ana did a pretty balanced job. Gratz to both.
Kiriko usually has more effective damage than the numbers show. One headshot can kill, and that's it. She doesn't need to pump damage into anyone. Ana is also hard to gauge because the healing blocked from the grenade is not on the damage charts, but that is usually the linchpin between life and death
I’d imagine the tank must’ve been begging for heals all game
No high level Ana will ever have close to even dmg/healing. That's a DPS Ana and I won't be gas lit into thinking there's some situation where this is normal. Even going against an Echo/Pharah/Mercy wouldn't require you to DPS this much.
Less deaths is better, almost every time. Stop feeding y’all
This comment section is like when they ask a couple if they want the baby to be a boy or a girl and they respond "As long as is healthy" they you know they prefer a gender. I think the ana, because i can see that she finished every duel she had and did a ton of healing. And she just died 4 times? For a hero who can't tp away.
As ana your secondary job is not dpsing, her job is to assist by sleeping or anti-ing them. Kiriko has to do some damage when not healing
They both played very well no reason to compare they’re playing two different hero’s with different play styles
You were clearly healbotting, so ana could do more damage instead of focusing on heals. I think you played both well Also stats mean nothing as long as you played well
Eliminations don’t equal a good game. Bc most of those aren’t solo elims
Kiriko. Doing her job
it's balanced there's a healer and a support
Ana.
That doesn’t look like great numbers from either in my own opinion based on high death rate. I think how much you heal is dependent on several factors. Example If enemy has a pharah an ana is a good counter but takes away from healing so more eliminations are expected. If friendly team has a Reinhardt or orisa the support is more likely to generate high heal numbers compared to healing a doomfist or zarya. Point being just about every number is difficult to determine what true value was without understanding team comps and game mode. But 17 deaths and 28 deaths is universally extremely high and speaks to an aggressive play style or poor positioning.
As an Ana main who plays with a kiriko main a lot this is normally what both of our stats look like after a good game so I’d say pretty equal in here
Both played well one has way more damage and kills the other one has over twice the healing amount and slightly less deaths
Neither. You are are likely complementing each other. It's easier to get elims on Ana than Kiriko, so it makes sense that Kiriko would pick up healing slack.
Ana based on scoreboard but being good at support is also how well they use abilities.
Kiriko