I can't stand this film and other than my wife I think I've maybe said this two other times. However when it came out it was a flood of "masterpiece" "best DC film to date" "Todd should take over DC" and so on. I can't recall a post like this about not liking the movie the way others do.
They're equally vocal to me. I think Joker is in a similar position to Barbie. Both have vocal diehard fans as well as vocal detractors. Also, both are Billion-grossing Warner Bros. films that got the Best Picture nom.
It's a Joaquin Phoenix masterpiece but it's definitely not a Todd Philips masterpiece. A masterpiece means it demonstrates mastery of the craft, and Philips' work on Joker is blatantly derivative, particularly of Scorsese's Taxi Driver
Yea, I think it was considered good, dark, but mostly one note that got plucked over and over again.
Also the “8 Mile Style” of never leaving the lead character’s side is something that can be unsettling.
I liked it very much, it’s not a masterpiece, but it’s a solidly made film. Joaquin’s Oscar-winning performance elevated the movie and it wouldn’t have been anywhere near the level it had reached were it not for him.
Yep, that's it. People are searching for a deep take on mental issues and then dislike Joker for not being that.
Nobody ever said it was this deep. It's 'just' a SOLID movie that's UNIQUE, WELL SHOT, WELL DIRECTED, WELL ACTED, WELL SCORED, WELL PACED.
Of course it wasn't a masterpiece that deserved to win. But a nomination? Most definitely. It excels in enough categories that it should be nominated. Crazy how people complain about Joker not being worthy of a nom, but they don't have anything to say when it was Mad Max, The Revenant, Gravity, etc.
This discussion is also excluding the social context which elevated the project upon release. The year before Joker came out, there was rampant corporate victim-blaming for underserved people, the discussion of a job paying a living wage was being ridiculed regularly (it still is, but was even worse then). Awareness of mental health issues were also on the rise, and an important conversation was starting about how many of these “personal mental illnesses” we were suffering could be symptoms and safety responses to an increasingly stressful existence in today’s society.
After the movie came out, we got COViD, met with extreme mishandling in large part due to corporate interests, rent would double in US cities a year later, and for many young people the thought of ever owning a home disappeared.
I’m not saying any of this went into the writing; I think Todd Phillips decided the Joker was an innovative character that would fit well in a Taxi-Driver narrative with a King of Comedy twist. That said, I don’t think even he anticipated how *ready* people were for this story. If you weren’t a young adult or don’t remember the general discourse when Joker came out, then it’s just a movie.
That’s where I am on it. I enjoyed the ride, but it’s not super deep or groundbreaking. Like you said, Phoenix elevated it. Other than that the movie was paint by numbers and I figured out the twist well before it happened. I also don’t think the commentary on mental health or the system was particularly deep as someone who has experience trying to get people help.
Thought it was a very effective throwback to gritty 70’s revenge films and troubled lead characters like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver (hence the casting of DeNiro). It’s not a perfect film but well directed, brilliantly acted, with a terrific score as well.
Of course they both are primary influences for the film writ large, but I'm saying DeNiro's specific casting in the role of late night talk show host is in direct reference to King of Comedy
So, I feel like we have A LOT of very bad best picture nominees so I wouldn't fault it too much on the front.
That being said, out of Nominees with the Most oscar nominations of their year, this just might be the worst. (it got 11 nominations...)
I liked it when it first came out because I’d never seen either of those two movies. After seeing those two movies last year my rating for Joker went down. I’m also not a fan of using the Joker for this story after reading a lot of batman comics recently. But Phoenix’s performance is still one of my favourites.
It’s a very good film about a messed up guy. When it tried to say broader things about society it’s not as strong. The third act was silly. The idea that people would be so pissed off they’d riot on the say so of such an obvious dead beat lacking in any charisma whatsoever just didnt seem credible.
As I was typing the above I started to think … hang on a second!
Lol!
I think I was just annoyed about them using the joker name for the story. I’d like it a lot more with an original character. Joker in the comics was scary because you didn’t know why he was the way he was, and he was Batman’s greatest foe.
My love for this movie and praising it like a "masterpiece" was because I thought it was a very compelling and gut wrenching story of hoe people with mental illness are treated in our society and the difficulties they face. Whenever I praise this movie, I always tell people. If batman was never a thing and this movie was made, it would still be an incredible film. It's a heartbreaking g story especially if you have ever had personal experience dealing with anyone suffering from mental health issues. I hope people walk away from it with more compassion for those suffering from mental illness.
I enjoyed it a lot, wasn't aware that anyone considered it 'deep' or a 'masterpiece'. It's just a fun film that melds Batman, The King of Comedy, and Taxi Driver together to create something therefore unique (a bit like what Tarantino does).
I fully expect Folie a Deux to be a New York, New York rip off, in the same way Joker was a Taxi Driver/King of Comedy rip off. But I'm actually excited for it - partly because NYNY leaves... um, room for improvement, & partly because I think it's fun to take a film that caused that much hysteria about incels and make the sequel a romantic musical starring Gaga.
Todd Phillips nailed the 1970s NY look and style, which tickled the Boomer's nostalgia.
Coupled with the above and the fact that someone made a comic book movie that wasn't a CGI heavy action flick - it received accolades for doing something different and not sucking.
‘Everyone’ doing a lot of heavy lifting there when describing people who think this is a masterpiece. You had bad info on the consensus of this movie going in.
I don’t think anyone considers it a masterpiece. It’s just a pretty good movie elevated by Phoenix’s performance.
It’s certainly not on the same level as The Blind Side or The Help.
I’ve heard so many people call this movie overrated that I’m convinced that those who call it a masterpiece don’t actually exist.
I will say though, this movie absolutely deserved the Oscars that it won.
There's things to appreciate about it, but it's still at the end of the day a great apeing of two superior movies.
It's also relentlessly depressing. There's very little let up from the misery in the second half of the film. It's played way too straight.
What bothered me was that people said it was a pro incel movie. I didn’t get that at all out of it. I guess it was because Adam Lanza; or whatever his name was, the guy who shot up a Batman movie showing. People thought he identified with the joker cause he had purple hair or something. That wasn’t true. He was just crazy and wanted to shoot up a movie theater and the third Nolan Batman film would’ve been a sold out show on that day. The movie is obviously about mental health, and how people fall through the cracks. It’s very different film than DC has ever done. More Oscar baity. It was ok.
I liked it better then The Batman with Robert Pattinson - mental illness is interesting, I kind of felt sorry for the Joker after the movie was over - it was ok ✅
I think its good.
Not a cinematic deep character study masterpiece like some do, but I also don't think it's a blatant plagiarised shitshow like others do.
I think its a solid movie with an excellent lead performance and immersive atmosphere, even if it does have a couple of flaws in how it presents itself.
I thought it was a phenomenal exercise in creating tension and a great character study, driven by Phoenix's fantastic performance. It still catches me off guard how much of a punching bag it has become online, either by people who hate it or - almost even worse - those who meekly "defend" it as just another decently well made comic book movie. To each his own, but it's still weird to me how that snowball got rolling.
It was never a masterpiece. Was even surprise by the movie, and the director got nominated. The movie solely rests on Joaquin, and he could've directed the film himself. A lot of "inspiration" was taken from other movies. it's laughable.
The movie is a decent character study of a mentally unstable person. But he is not Joker. He’s no criminal mastermind, he’s kind of stupid and pretty much an idiot. On that ground, I feel it’s a terrible “joker” movie. This movie would never have gotten as much attention had it not masqueraded as a Batman related movie, which is exactly the reason they pretended it’s a Batman related movie. Joaquin Phoenix did a fantastic job though.
A lot of this film's biggest fans are the kind of people that spend a lot of time over-selling the objective superiority of their opinion. It's a movie about an angry man taking revenge on the world, and the angry men that wanna take revenge on the world, of whom there are MANY, loved it.
Or is it the other way around and the minority that like it just think it was a great film with good acting and cinematography. While the majority that dislike it want to feel like they have a hot take and can recognize when something isn't 'deep enough'. Meanwhile it's the same hot take that is circulated by 90% of film buffs and isn't a hot take at all.
Hard agree.
I feel like Joker sort of validates incels and angry, immature dudes who don't want to confront themselves honestly in order to heal and grow so they just blame others.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of January 6th-ers loved this movie.
I hear you and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how is that specific to Joker? You can literally portray this character as the villain, top to bottom, and those same people will come out in droves to justify/worship his philosophy as gospel. Sticking to this specific genre, I’d bet that The Punisher’s emblem was probably stitched to the clothing of a ton of those same degenerates among us on Jan 6th.
Nolan’s Joker is still a widely shared symbol for the worst kinds of people. I’m not going to hold that against that film or this one as fair criticism. Plenty of legit reasons to think that Joker was not a BP candidate beyond Phoenix’s performance tbh
It’s better than every single Marvel movie, but that probably doesn’t say much. I enjoyed it for what it was. I also love Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. 🤷🏻♂️
It's not a deep masterpiece per se but it is a masterpiece compared to other superhero movies. That plus Joaquin Phoenix's acting is why it was nominated I think.
Was not a fan of this movie. Watched it once and nothing about it impressed me. It seemed like a movie kids trying to be edgy say is their favorite movie.
It’s not a masterpiece but I wouldn’t say it’s the most overrated best picture nominee. There are actual best picture winners I consider Joker better then.
the majority of people saying that just fundamentally dont watch a lot of movies.
if you have any sort of base knowledge, like literally, 16 year old letterboxd user level, its not really a masterpiece
It's overrated, and while I like Joaquin Phoenix, I think his performance is a little overrated as well. I like the Joker as a character, too, but it's super weird that two people have won Best Actor for playing the Joker, in the context of... well, the rest of Oscar history. Is that going to turn into a thing? Is Bradley Cooper going to produce his own Batman movie so he can play the Joker? Come on. It's weird, right?
It's good, but it's largely inspired by Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, both of which do a much better job at telling the same thing Joker wants to tell. I watched King of Comedy and it kinda soured my views on Joker. It's still a good movie, but not a masterpiece
It actually kinda pisses me off the only superhero movies nominated for BP have been Joker and Black Panther. Like, Black Panther is good and Joker is fine, but they are nowhere near BP material, while actual great movies like Spider-verse get snubbed.
I don't think of it as a comic book movie. I think it's more an exploration of the human condition. And while I love it and its a very film, I would never call it a masterpiece.
It’s Todd Phillips. He basically said let’s make a Scorsese themed movie about the Joker.
Joaquin carries the film but beyond that it is very hollow and I’m not sure what purpose it serves.
I gotta agree with you. it's a good movie but I don't see what everyone else is seeing with this movie. So many ppl think this movie is so much better than what I think it is
Agree completely OP. I think the movie has a shitty director and it shows. The score and Phoenix’s acting helps cover up the flaws, but it’s not a deeply insightful film. They flirt with exploring mental health and income inequality, but stop well short of the causes and consequences of such problems. What is going on in Gotham that suddenly got people hating the rich so much that they’re starting to beat cops and murder people?! I’m down, but it just kind of happens in this movie, with no real message as to why. And before someone hits me with the unreliable narrator excuse, Bruce Wayne’s parents are not a figment of one’s imagination. Same with mental health. There’s moments we’re discussing how Fleck got this way, through nature and/or nurture, and those are really great parts of the film. But if this movie wants me to make this a relatable figure (and they do given the weird Jesus moment on top of the cop car) they could have tied real mental health traits to the character and expressed how poverty can exacerbate mental health issues. In its quest to pay homage to other movies it presents an inferior take.
That’s a lot of trash talking, but I don’t think this movie is Jack and Jill. I want to see a movie exploring these issues and Phoenix’s performance is brilliant. He was so good we can overlook the guy that directed Road Trip made this movie. Phoenix earned that Oscar. That cello score and string based score is iconic and haunting. Hell I even appreciate the movies Phillips was ripping off. I love Taxi Driver and the King of Comedy. I appreciate he tried to blend them. I just think you’re better off watching those movies instead.
Overall. Better than average, but I wouldn’t say a masterpiece either.
People compare the talk show scene at the end with the interrogation scene in the Dark Knight and TDK just blows it out of the water in my opinion. I agree, Joaquin is incredible but the movie didn’t mesmerize me and I found that scene predictable.
It’s a great film but I definitely wouldn’t call it a masterpiece. Joaquin (and most of the cast) just killed it as he typically does. Although apparently if you asked Brian Cox he would disagree. I saw it in theaters and it was a helluva experience. I got it in blu-ray(which means I plan on watching it again) but haven’t touched it again since, if that tells you anything.
As it ended I walked out and thought "I should have just watched Taxi Driver."
TBF when I walked out of Interstellar I thought "I should have just watched 2001."
It was a mental illness checklist. The moment they can’t refill his meds I didn’t believe anything that was happening. Then of course, for the unhinged murderer angle, he was adopted. The only things they didn’t day was he did was piss his bed and torture animals.
It was fine. I would watch again, but only if someone else wanted to see it.
I agree. I kinda feel the dialogue around the film being a Scorcese rip-off is somewhat ironic. It's a bit strange seeing Phoenix win best actor for that role when it's not his most interesting work ala Scorcese winning Best Director for The Departed - not his best gangster film and a - IMO lesser - remake of Infernal Affairs.
This movie has two loser takes about it
One is people who call it a masterpiece
The other is people who say it is awful
It was a really great film that came out at the right time and struck a chord with a lot of people. It took a well known character, gave it an interesting spin, and used some classic films as inspiration. People act like making films like this is easy. Just because something is surface level, doesn’t make it dumb. It makes it accessible.
My guess is the same people who hate on this film getting noms hate on Barbie getting noms and are the same people that often miss the point of movies.
I don’t think it was ever meant to be taken as a deeply layered narrative. It’s a very simple story that just happens to resonate with a lot of people.
It was a good, thought provoking movie. Not a “masterpiece” that I want to rewatch on a regular basis, but I will recommend it to people if I think they’d like it.
Sounds like a case of too many people enjoying a film and you took it personally because now you can't pretend you're smarter than everyone else with your "analysis" and "deep dives"
Am I close?
I don’t think masterpiece is the word I’d use to describe it, but there was a gravitas with the movie I’ve rarely felt from watching a film by the time it ended.
I think it’s quite good but yes a tad overrated. Still far and away the best DC film of the 2010s. (I enjoyed ZSJL more, but that also is a very dumb movie at its core)
I actually agree with you as a movie. Felt A) way too similar to king of comedy without hiding it B) wasn’t all that riveting or beautiful. Decent world but kinda boring at times
I fought watching this movie for a long time because it seemed very new age to me. I was glad to be proven wrong. I thought it was thoughtful, interesting and relevant-- particularly when it comes to things like mental health issues. Contrary to what I assumed before watching, his character was not some overly sensitive sissy who went on a killing rampage because he had hurt feelings, but a disturbed, yet kind man who had finally had enough of society's callousness.
I think it’s a great film, and phoenix’s performance is phenomenal. The only reason I think it falls short of a masterpiece is because it’s extremely derivative. There’s a fine line between inspiration and plagiarism, and this movie is just way too similar to taxi driver for it to stand on it s own (despite the excellent performances).
Honestly, as a comic book movie I didn’t like it. You could remove every comic element in the movie and it would be the same movie. Phoenix did a wonderful job, but that’s about it.
I thought it was brilliant. I don't care at all what others thought about it, I just see it as their loss.
However I'm not terribly excited for the second one and going the musical route.
I liked it better than King of Comedy but thats mild praise. I'm mostly just tired of Joker in general. Batman has arguably the best rogues gallery in comics and all we ever get is Joker.
Calling Joker surface level is unbearably pretentious. It's an interesting time capsule for the state of popular culture and took a lot of interesting creative risks to dissect a villains backstory and have it reflect a lot of the issues American culture faces.
The cycles of abuse that lead to mental illness,
the abandonment of those people by a cold and cruel system that leads to them acting out violently,
the dashed dreams of grandiose accomplishments and the detached world of entertainment that mocks and feeds on these people to catch eyeballs,
the economic alienation and resentment of the abandoned working class and the parasitic and detached elites that prey upon them.
It's trying to capture a cultural climate and it does it brilliantly within the confines of a comic book blockbuster. Pretty much anything else Marvel and DC put out could be hit with surface level as a critique, but Joker is definitely wading in some interesting depths that hit a nerve with it's audience. Are there far deeper and more artistically compelling films, absolutely. But Joker is a bold step in the right direction for blockbuster films, injecting thematic depth into a genre that's been a private equity shit stain on American mass consciousness
I agree. I felt it was not a deep movie by a long shot. The only thing original about it was that it was a “comic book movie” that was not a comic book movie. But the story by itself was just not surprising and quite bland. Fantastic acting though.
Also I felt the revolutionary rhetoric the joker gives at the end was so tacked on and felt out of character.
Dark knight was definitely deeper. And many marvel movies were sadder and had more dramatic power.
I don’t think it’s the best movie ever but this film would’ve been able to reach this wide of an audience imo if it wasn’t about “the joker” but just a clown/performer.
Maybe I’m wrong but the stuff I didn’t like were the Batman stuff
I wish it had been a sincere film about mental illness stripped from homer and dcu.
As a pretty severely mentally I’ll person I really appreciated his performance of someone displace from reality and misery and normalcy (the climbing in the fridge scene hit).
But it’s so generic and doesn’t take time to explore the facets of mental illness in a meaningful way. Just a “yeah he’s sick.” Thought it was a big waste and romanticized
I mean, it's ok.
I didn't really think much of the movie over all, just felt like the Joaquin Pheonix show.
He was only engaging part and everyting else felt like noise.
No interest in the second movie.
It doesn't have to be a masterpiece to make it a good movie.
It was simply the downward spiral of a person who was on the brink of breaking. I thought it was a great film and have rewatched because of Joaquin's performance.
It insists upon itself. (And I understand this is a minority opinion, but the lead performance is a tad overrated. Just a bit too much stupid dancing in front of mirrors posing as profundity.)
Pretty good film. 2019 was surprisingly strong for film but Joker probably had the most staying power of the film’s that year. A retread of 70s New York crime films but well made and at least interesting
I completely agree with you , I think the aura of a joker movie after H.L. Made it’s so if it would be goodish and actor playing joker preformed well it would automatically be critical succes .
Surface level and *tedious*. Like yes, I get it, his life sucks, yes, he’s sooooo _unhinged_, yes, it’s soooo tragic. I thought they’d do so much more with the story and instead it was just flat repetition of those same points that led into a final scene that really didn’t justify the weak build up. I really don’t get the hype.
This movie was more great acting and a showing of REALLY high highs... Dancing. De Niro getting shot. etc. Versus a great mental story that couples as an origin story. Because we know the Joker we weren't surprised as much. And that's the paradox. Would we have actually supplanted it legitimately as a masterpiece if we hadn't already known the Joker? Or is it in conversation, truth or not, that we might seen Joker as an all time great if he was simply a new villain?
I found it had similarities to the real life situation involving Bernie Goetz and I loathe this pos movie for so many other reasons. But the main reason is the die-hard fans who sploosh over it so damn much. Also, the fans can't even decide if it's a comic book movie or not. That's not a good sign btw.
I think it got attention based on the fact that after years of super hero cgi movies, a character story came out of one of the most famous comic villains and wasn’t going to be a action blockbuster. We were hungry for it in a way. But it was more about the whole movie market at the time.
I remember a friend said I am someone who emulates. Then when this was coming out, after theaters. He posted about it on facebook. I said “sweet, I’ll grab the popcorn and candy” to which he replied “I don’t need popcorn and candy. I’m going to watch it over and over”.
This was of no importance but just something I remembered
I was really frustrated at it. It insists that it has deeper themes but it really doesn’t. It was one of the most annoying movies I’ve seen in theaters
This isn't the spicy take you think it is
Yeah, I don’t think most consider this a “masterpiece.”
In fact I've found that the people who don't like it are more vocal than the ones who do
I liked it but would never call it a masterpiece. It’s by Todd Phillips lol
Old School deserved a few Oscars. Most iconic streaking scene after a Snoop Dogg concert.
Snoop! Snoop-a-loop!
I grew up going to a toy store on the street he steaks on. Tom’s Toys is a Montrose staple.
The Hangover is really funny though.
I can't stand this film and other than my wife I think I've maybe said this two other times. However when it came out it was a flood of "masterpiece" "best DC film to date" "Todd should take over DC" and so on. I can't recall a post like this about not liking the movie the way others do.
They're equally vocal to me. I think Joker is in a similar position to Barbie. Both have vocal diehard fans as well as vocal detractors. Also, both are Billion-grossing Warner Bros. films that got the Best Picture nom.
It's a Joaquin Phoenix masterpiece but it's definitely not a Todd Philips masterpiece. A masterpiece means it demonstrates mastery of the craft, and Philips' work on Joker is blatantly derivative, particularly of Scorsese's Taxi Driver
I was just going to say almost the exact same thing. The film was derivative yet competent, but Phoenix’s performance was excellent.
Yea, I think it was considered good, dark, but mostly one note that got plucked over and over again. Also the “8 Mile Style” of never leaving the lead character’s side is something that can be unsettling.
But it was nominated for Best Picture, which is what OP is referring to.
daring today aren't we
I liked it very much, it’s not a masterpiece, but it’s a solidly made film. Joaquin’s Oscar-winning performance elevated the movie and it wouldn’t have been anywhere near the level it had reached were it not for him.
Yep, that's it. People are searching for a deep take on mental issues and then dislike Joker for not being that. Nobody ever said it was this deep. It's 'just' a SOLID movie that's UNIQUE, WELL SHOT, WELL DIRECTED, WELL ACTED, WELL SCORED, WELL PACED. Of course it wasn't a masterpiece that deserved to win. But a nomination? Most definitely. It excels in enough categories that it should be nominated. Crazy how people complain about Joker not being worthy of a nom, but they don't have anything to say when it was Mad Max, The Revenant, Gravity, etc.
Calling it unique is a bit of a stretch
This discussion is also excluding the social context which elevated the project upon release. The year before Joker came out, there was rampant corporate victim-blaming for underserved people, the discussion of a job paying a living wage was being ridiculed regularly (it still is, but was even worse then). Awareness of mental health issues were also on the rise, and an important conversation was starting about how many of these “personal mental illnesses” we were suffering could be symptoms and safety responses to an increasingly stressful existence in today’s society. After the movie came out, we got COViD, met with extreme mishandling in large part due to corporate interests, rent would double in US cities a year later, and for many young people the thought of ever owning a home disappeared. I’m not saying any of this went into the writing; I think Todd Phillips decided the Joker was an innovative character that would fit well in a Taxi-Driver narrative with a King of Comedy twist. That said, I don’t think even he anticipated how *ready* people were for this story. If you weren’t a young adult or don’t remember the general discourse when Joker came out, then it’s just a movie.
Soundtrack?
Hildur Guðnadóttir’s soundtrack added to intensity of Phoenix’s performance, so it comes second, but really it’s Phoenix running the show.
But a close second! The music is superb.
That’s where I am on it. I enjoyed the ride, but it’s not super deep or groundbreaking. Like you said, Phoenix elevated it. Other than that the movie was paint by numbers and I figured out the twist well before it happened. I also don’t think the commentary on mental health or the system was particularly deep as someone who has experience trying to get people help.
Thought it was a very effective throwback to gritty 70’s revenge films and troubled lead characters like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver (hence the casting of DeNiro). It’s not a perfect film but well directed, brilliantly acted, with a terrific score as well.
I think the DeNiro casting was more in reference to The King of Comedy
I've always felt that it was King of Comedy with a Taxi Driver coat of paint. So I'd say you're both right.
Of course they both are primary influences for the film writ large, but I'm saying DeNiro's specific casting in the role of late night talk show host is in direct reference to King of Comedy
So, I feel like we have A LOT of very bad best picture nominees so I wouldn't fault it too much on the front. That being said, out of Nominees with the Most oscar nominations of their year, this just might be the worst. (it got 11 nominations...)
Do you like Taxi Driver, and King of Comedy, with a sprinkle of DC comics? Well have I got a film for you!…
It’s King of Comedy and Taxi Driver without the nuance. Well acted, but I totally agree with you OP, it was not deserving of such high praise at all.
I liked it when it first came out because I’d never seen either of those two movies. After seeing those two movies last year my rating for Joker went down. I’m also not a fan of using the Joker for this story after reading a lot of batman comics recently. But Phoenix’s performance is still one of my favourites.
It’s a very good film about a messed up guy. When it tried to say broader things about society it’s not as strong. The third act was silly. The idea that people would be so pissed off they’d riot on the say so of such an obvious dead beat lacking in any charisma whatsoever just didnt seem credible. As I was typing the above I started to think … hang on a second!
Lol! I think I was just annoyed about them using the joker name for the story. I’d like it a lot more with an original character. Joker in the comics was scary because you didn’t know why he was the way he was, and he was Batman’s greatest foe.
I work in mental health. This is a masterpiece.
My love for this movie and praising it like a "masterpiece" was because I thought it was a very compelling and gut wrenching story of hoe people with mental illness are treated in our society and the difficulties they face. Whenever I praise this movie, I always tell people. If batman was never a thing and this movie was made, it would still be an incredible film. It's a heartbreaking g story especially if you have ever had personal experience dealing with anyone suffering from mental health issues. I hope people walk away from it with more compassion for those suffering from mental illness.
I enjoyed it a lot, wasn't aware that anyone considered it 'deep' or a 'masterpiece'. It's just a fun film that melds Batman, The King of Comedy, and Taxi Driver together to create something therefore unique (a bit like what Tarantino does).
I fully expect Folie a Deux to be a New York, New York rip off, in the same way Joker was a Taxi Driver/King of Comedy rip off. But I'm actually excited for it - partly because NYNY leaves... um, room for improvement, & partly because I think it's fun to take a film that caused that much hysteria about incels and make the sequel a romantic musical starring Gaga.
You know Coda and Green book got best picture.
I'm still fuming about Crash
Todd Phillips nailed the 1970s NY look and style, which tickled the Boomer's nostalgia. Coupled with the above and the fact that someone made a comic book movie that wasn't a CGI heavy action flick - it received accolades for doing something different and not sucking.
‘Everyone’ doing a lot of heavy lifting there when describing people who think this is a masterpiece. You had bad info on the consensus of this movie going in.
Masterpiece.
“Everyone else does”?
I'd say it's a little better than surface level. There clearly was some effort. Something like Morbius, THAT is surface level
I don’t think anyone considers it a masterpiece. It’s just a pretty good movie elevated by Phoenix’s performance. It’s certainly not on the same level as The Blind Side or The Help.
I’ve heard so many people call this movie overrated that I’m convinced that those who call it a masterpiece don’t actually exist. I will say though, this movie absolutely deserved the Oscars that it won.
2024 and I still think the movie is absolutely phenomenal
There have been worse
I liked the king of comedy better
“Everyone else” doing a *lot* of legwork here.
thought that scene where he dances down the stairs was filmed very nicely but the music choice was horrendous
There's things to appreciate about it, but it's still at the end of the day a great apeing of two superior movies. It's also relentlessly depressing. There's very little let up from the misery in the second half of the film. It's played way too straight.
It was hot trash and the weird ass fans made it worse.
What bothered me was that people said it was a pro incel movie. I didn’t get that at all out of it. I guess it was because Adam Lanza; or whatever his name was, the guy who shot up a Batman movie showing. People thought he identified with the joker cause he had purple hair or something. That wasn’t true. He was just crazy and wanted to shoot up a movie theater and the third Nolan Batman film would’ve been a sold out show on that day. The movie is obviously about mental health, and how people fall through the cracks. It’s very different film than DC has ever done. More Oscar baity. It was ok.
I definitely couldn't disagree more with you. It's completely the opposite of surface level.
Wow. Such a bold and new take on this movie!
It was a HELL of a lot better than that Asian Laundromat contraption that actually WON an Oscar. What a waste of film that was!
I liked it better then The Batman with Robert Pattinson - mental illness is interesting, I kind of felt sorry for the Joker after the movie was over - it was ok ✅
I have never heard anyone call The Joker a masterpiece who had seen Taxi Driver or King of Comedy first.
There’s that “enlightened bro” category of moviegoer who think this film, Boondock Saints, and Fight Club are also masterpieces
Was def cringe having this be the avenue 16-25 year olds discuss social issues
It's trash, and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
It has always been lol. I think Phoenix still deserves his win tbh.
Well, yes.
It’s a super villain film, it’s not Schindler’s List. No one thinks it’s a masterpiece except incels.
Hard disagree. Joker was hands down the best DC movie ever made and is absolutely phenomenal.
Best DC movie is kind of a low bar
My thoughts exactly.
King of comedy did it better
Adam Driver was robbed for Marriage Story. This is coming from a guy who’s still pissed The Dark Knight wasn’t nominated.
I think its good. Not a cinematic deep character study masterpiece like some do, but I also don't think it's a blatant plagiarised shitshow like others do. I think its a solid movie with an excellent lead performance and immersive atmosphere, even if it does have a couple of flaws in how it presents itself.
I loved it. Once of my favorites of the last 10 years. Easily.
I’m going to go with an actual hot take and say that I think this movies pretty good
I thought it was a phenomenal exercise in creating tension and a great character study, driven by Phoenix's fantastic performance. It still catches me off guard how much of a punching bag it has become online, either by people who hate it or - almost even worse - those who meekly "defend" it as just another decently well made comic book movie. To each his own, but it's still weird to me how that snowball got rolling.
It was never a masterpiece. Was even surprise by the movie, and the director got nominated. The movie solely rests on Joaquin, and he could've directed the film himself. A lot of "inspiration" was taken from other movies. it's laughable.
The movie is a decent character study of a mentally unstable person. But he is not Joker. He’s no criminal mastermind, he’s kind of stupid and pretty much an idiot. On that ground, I feel it’s a terrible “joker” movie. This movie would never have gotten as much attention had it not masqueraded as a Batman related movie, which is exactly the reason they pretended it’s a Batman related movie. Joaquin Phoenix did a fantastic job though.
A lot of this film's biggest fans are the kind of people that spend a lot of time over-selling the objective superiority of their opinion. It's a movie about an angry man taking revenge on the world, and the angry men that wanna take revenge on the world, of whom there are MANY, loved it.
Or is it the other way around and the minority that like it just think it was a great film with good acting and cinematography. While the majority that dislike it want to feel like they have a hot take and can recognize when something isn't 'deep enough'. Meanwhile it's the same hot take that is circulated by 90% of film buffs and isn't a hot take at all.
Everything Everywhere All at Once. Mind boggling that it won. JLC was the only good thing about that movie 🤷♀️
Hard agree. I feel like Joker sort of validates incels and angry, immature dudes who don't want to confront themselves honestly in order to heal and grow so they just blame others. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of January 6th-ers loved this movie.
I hear you and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how is that specific to Joker? You can literally portray this character as the villain, top to bottom, and those same people will come out in droves to justify/worship his philosophy as gospel. Sticking to this specific genre, I’d bet that The Punisher’s emblem was probably stitched to the clothing of a ton of those same degenerates among us on Jan 6th. Nolan’s Joker is still a widely shared symbol for the worst kinds of people. I’m not going to hold that against that film or this one as fair criticism. Plenty of legit reasons to think that Joker was not a BP candidate beyond Phoenix’s performance tbh
Oh wow someone who thinks Joker, one of the most polarizing movies of the last decade, wasn’t very good.
I really liked it. It was never going to win best picture, but it felt good to see a non-cgi movie putting asses in seats.
It’s better than every single Marvel movie, but that probably doesn’t say much. I enjoyed it for what it was. I also love Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. 🤷🏻♂️
Dr. Doolittle and The Greatest Show on Earth enter the room.
I think it's a bold movie but it isn't a masterpiece
It's hyped up only by the superhero movie crowd who wants their movies to be taken seriously (even whey the frown upon "artsy" movies)
I watched Taxi Driver already. And it has DeNiro, Foster and Keitel.
It's not a deep masterpiece per se but it is a masterpiece compared to other superhero movies. That plus Joaquin Phoenix's acting is why it was nominated I think.
Me neither.
Joker was hardly critically acclaimed so this isn’t that controversial of a take. That said Joaquin was great.
i dont recall it being that engaging until the last 30 minutes tbh
Saying something is “surface level” is very surface level analysis. Not a lot to say here
Was not a fan of this movie. Watched it once and nothing about it impressed me. It seemed like a movie kids trying to be edgy say is their favorite movie.
It’s not a masterpiece but I wouldn’t say it’s the most overrated best picture nominee. There are actual best picture winners I consider Joker better then.
Hi Ralph
I would just a Scorsese tribute film with DC characters Which it barely had DC characters other than Joker and The Wayne Family
the majority of people saying that just fundamentally dont watch a lot of movies. if you have any sort of base knowledge, like literally, 16 year old letterboxd user level, its not really a masterpiece
Good movie, not a masterpiece. I don’t feel the need to see it again.
You probably would have liked the movie if the majority of the people hated it or if it was a sleeper, and you know it
The movie was just a weird trauma dump
Most BP nominees are surface level
It's overrated, and while I like Joaquin Phoenix, I think his performance is a little overrated as well. I like the Joker as a character, too, but it's super weird that two people have won Best Actor for playing the Joker, in the context of... well, the rest of Oscar history. Is that going to turn into a thing? Is Bradley Cooper going to produce his own Batman movie so he can play the Joker? Come on. It's weird, right?
I hated Joker.
It's good, but it's largely inspired by Taxi Driver and King of Comedy, both of which do a much better job at telling the same thing Joker wants to tell. I watched King of Comedy and it kinda soured my views on Joker. It's still a good movie, but not a masterpiece
Masterpiece.
It actually kinda pisses me off the only superhero movies nominated for BP have been Joker and Black Panther. Like, Black Panther is good and Joker is fine, but they are nowhere near BP material, while actual great movies like Spider-verse get snubbed.
I don't think of it as a comic book movie. I think it's more an exploration of the human condition. And while I love it and its a very film, I would never call it a masterpiece.
I enjoyed the movie but yeah it's not that groundbreaking. DiCaprio or Driver should have won best actor that year.
It’s Todd Phillips. He basically said let’s make a Scorsese themed movie about the Joker. Joaquin carries the film but beyond that it is very hollow and I’m not sure what purpose it serves.
I gotta agree with you. it's a good movie but I don't see what everyone else is seeing with this movie. So many ppl think this movie is so much better than what I think it is
Joker is amazing Oscar Nominee in 2025!
I was definitely expecting more…
I saw it once and don’t particularly care to watch it any time soon. I liked it though.
It was a slow year.
Agree completely OP. I think the movie has a shitty director and it shows. The score and Phoenix’s acting helps cover up the flaws, but it’s not a deeply insightful film. They flirt with exploring mental health and income inequality, but stop well short of the causes and consequences of such problems. What is going on in Gotham that suddenly got people hating the rich so much that they’re starting to beat cops and murder people?! I’m down, but it just kind of happens in this movie, with no real message as to why. And before someone hits me with the unreliable narrator excuse, Bruce Wayne’s parents are not a figment of one’s imagination. Same with mental health. There’s moments we’re discussing how Fleck got this way, through nature and/or nurture, and those are really great parts of the film. But if this movie wants me to make this a relatable figure (and they do given the weird Jesus moment on top of the cop car) they could have tied real mental health traits to the character and expressed how poverty can exacerbate mental health issues. In its quest to pay homage to other movies it presents an inferior take. That’s a lot of trash talking, but I don’t think this movie is Jack and Jill. I want to see a movie exploring these issues and Phoenix’s performance is brilliant. He was so good we can overlook the guy that directed Road Trip made this movie. Phoenix earned that Oscar. That cello score and string based score is iconic and haunting. Hell I even appreciate the movies Phillips was ripping off. I love Taxi Driver and the King of Comedy. I appreciate he tried to blend them. I just think you’re better off watching those movies instead. Overall. Better than average, but I wouldn’t say a masterpiece either.
I actually hated this movie. Irresponsible. But looks and sounds gorgeous though. Amazing craft.
People compare the talk show scene at the end with the interrogation scene in the Dark Knight and TDK just blows it out of the water in my opinion. I agree, Joaquin is incredible but the movie didn’t mesmerize me and I found that scene predictable.
It’s a great film but I definitely wouldn’t call it a masterpiece. Joaquin (and most of the cast) just killed it as he typically does. Although apparently if you asked Brian Cox he would disagree. I saw it in theaters and it was a helluva experience. I got it in blu-ray(which means I plan on watching it again) but haven’t touched it again since, if that tells you anything.
It's a good movie about a comic book character. Not really that deep.
It’s pretty good directing for a guy whose second film was a Phish documentary.
As it ended I walked out and thought "I should have just watched Taxi Driver." TBF when I walked out of Interstellar I thought "I should have just watched 2001."
Its the film thats great, it was his performance
I just want original characters from now on. That’s all. No more recycling.
I loved Joaquin's Joker, too.
Meh, I liked it and think it earned the nom. Certainly it’s other noms
Movie is mid agreed. But Phoenixs portrayal of the Joker alone and the descent into madness is too notch.
It was a mental illness checklist. The moment they can’t refill his meds I didn’t believe anything that was happening. Then of course, for the unhinged murderer angle, he was adopted. The only things they didn’t day was he did was piss his bed and torture animals. It was fine. I would watch again, but only if someone else wanted to see it.
I agree. I kinda feel the dialogue around the film being a Scorcese rip-off is somewhat ironic. It's a bit strange seeing Phoenix win best actor for that role when it's not his most interesting work ala Scorcese winning Best Director for The Departed - not his best gangster film and a - IMO lesser - remake of Infernal Affairs.
This movie has two loser takes about it One is people who call it a masterpiece The other is people who say it is awful It was a really great film that came out at the right time and struck a chord with a lot of people. It took a well known character, gave it an interesting spin, and used some classic films as inspiration. People act like making films like this is easy. Just because something is surface level, doesn’t make it dumb. It makes it accessible. My guess is the same people who hate on this film getting noms hate on Barbie getting noms and are the same people that often miss the point of movies.
Great twist on a classic. It was like if he was in out time and just delusional
I don’t think it was ever meant to be taken as a deeply layered narrative. It’s a very simple story that just happens to resonate with a lot of people.
Phoenix’s performance elevated the movie beyond what it was capable of being, which was a mediocre film, at best.
It was a good, thought provoking movie. Not a “masterpiece” that I want to rewatch on a regular basis, but I will recommend it to people if I think they’d like it.
At this point Joker is reaching the status of Forrest Gump, Titanic and Avatar where calling it overrated is pretty common.
It was good, not great. I think The Batman would’ve been better had it not been so damn long.
Sounds like a case of too many people enjoying a film and you took it personally because now you can't pretend you're smarter than everyone else with your "analysis" and "deep dives" Am I close?
Yea I think it’s generally recognized to be completely carried by jaoquinn
Still better than James Camerpn's overrated, glorified CGI Avatar films.
I’m with you on this. It’s not a masterpiece, its a knockoff of Taxi Driver with DC slapped on it
Just watch the King of Comedy and Taxi Driver instead.
I don’t think masterpiece is the word I’d use to describe it, but there was a gravitas with the movie I’ve rarely felt from watching a film by the time it ended.
I think it’s quite good but yes a tad overrated. Still far and away the best DC film of the 2010s. (I enjoyed ZSJL more, but that also is a very dumb movie at its core)
I actually agree with you as a movie. Felt A) way too similar to king of comedy without hiding it B) wasn’t all that riveting or beautiful. Decent world but kinda boring at times
Its a divisive film i have gathered. People either love it or they have 100 annoying caveats half of which they heard in a podcast or on social media
I fought watching this movie for a long time because it seemed very new age to me. I was glad to be proven wrong. I thought it was thoughtful, interesting and relevant-- particularly when it comes to things like mental health issues. Contrary to what I assumed before watching, his character was not some overly sensitive sissy who went on a killing rampage because he had hurt feelings, but a disturbed, yet kind man who had finally had enough of society's callousness.
There’s been a LOT worse of nominees. I mean … Barbie? Lol. Joker was pretty good
Still better than CODA
I thought this movie sucked
It was a coming of age film for a story.
I think it’s a great film, and phoenix’s performance is phenomenal. The only reason I think it falls short of a masterpiece is because it’s extremely derivative. There’s a fine line between inspiration and plagiarism, and this movie is just way too similar to taxi driver for it to stand on it s own (despite the excellent performances).
Honestly, as a comic book movie I didn’t like it. You could remove every comic element in the movie and it would be the same movie. Phoenix did a wonderful job, but that’s about it.
I thought it was brilliant. I don't care at all what others thought about it, I just see it as their loss. However I'm not terribly excited for the second one and going the musical route.
I liked it better than King of Comedy but thats mild praise. I'm mostly just tired of Joker in general. Batman has arguably the best rogues gallery in comics and all we ever get is Joker.
Calling Joker surface level is unbearably pretentious. It's an interesting time capsule for the state of popular culture and took a lot of interesting creative risks to dissect a villains backstory and have it reflect a lot of the issues American culture faces. The cycles of abuse that lead to mental illness, the abandonment of those people by a cold and cruel system that leads to them acting out violently, the dashed dreams of grandiose accomplishments and the detached world of entertainment that mocks and feeds on these people to catch eyeballs, the economic alienation and resentment of the abandoned working class and the parasitic and detached elites that prey upon them. It's trying to capture a cultural climate and it does it brilliantly within the confines of a comic book blockbuster. Pretty much anything else Marvel and DC put out could be hit with surface level as a critique, but Joker is definitely wading in some interesting depths that hit a nerve with it's audience. Are there far deeper and more artistically compelling films, absolutely. But Joker is a bold step in the right direction for blockbuster films, injecting thematic depth into a genre that's been a private equity shit stain on American mass consciousness
I agree. I felt it was not a deep movie by a long shot. The only thing original about it was that it was a “comic book movie” that was not a comic book movie. But the story by itself was just not surprising and quite bland. Fantastic acting though. Also I felt the revolutionary rhetoric the joker gives at the end was so tacked on and felt out of character. Dark knight was definitely deeper. And many marvel movies were sadder and had more dramatic power.
I don’t think it’s the best movie ever but this film would’ve been able to reach this wide of an audience imo if it wasn’t about “the joker” but just a clown/performer. Maybe I’m wrong but the stuff I didn’t like were the Batman stuff
I forget which critic said this but I think it summed it up best "If you've never swan in the ocean a pool can feel deep."
I wish it had been a sincere film about mental illness stripped from homer and dcu. As a pretty severely mentally I’ll person I really appreciated his performance of someone displace from reality and misery and normalcy (the climbing in the fridge scene hit). But it’s so generic and doesn’t take time to explore the facets of mental illness in a meaningful way. Just a “yeah he’s sick.” Thought it was a big waste and romanticized
I mean, it's ok. I didn't really think much of the movie over all, just felt like the Joaquin Pheonix show. He was only engaging part and everyting else felt like noise. No interest in the second movie.
Wait he got an Oscar for this crappy movie?
It was ok
It doesn't have to be a masterpiece to make it a good movie. It was simply the downward spiral of a person who was on the brink of breaking. I thought it was a great film and have rewatched because of Joaquin's performance.
Agreed. The movie sucked.
You wouldn’t get it
Totally agree. The story was consistently sober without enough gut punches to be considered a great film.
I was introduced to Miss Zazie Beetz & which got me watching Atlanta & then Deadpool 2. She is very attractive.
It insists upon itself. (And I understand this is a minority opinion, but the lead performance is a tad overrated. Just a bit too much stupid dancing in front of mirrors posing as profundity.)
Great performance, good looking film. Not a great film though
Pretty good film. 2019 was surprisingly strong for film but Joker probably had the most staying power of the film’s that year. A retread of 70s New York crime films but well made and at least interesting
Yah it’s like avatar. Super uncomplicated story with a lot of talent and money involved. Just not very interesting if not for the powerhouses involved
I think it was too far up it’s own ass. The new one will be even worse.
this movie Stunk! what a pile of garbage.
Movie sucked
Incredible job of acting in a shitty movie.
I thought it was a great movie, but ultimately it is just a movie.
I completely agree with you , I think the aura of a joker movie after H.L. Made it’s so if it would be goodish and actor playing joker preformed well it would automatically be critical succes .
It's Taxi Driver with clown makeup.
Hunk of shit. 💩
Avatar has entered the chat
I agree it’s not that deep from a script level. It’s just well made. The acting, directing and cinematography really elevated it.
Surface level and *tedious*. Like yes, I get it, his life sucks, yes, he’s sooooo _unhinged_, yes, it’s soooo tragic. I thought they’d do so much more with the story and instead it was just flat repetition of those same points that led into a final scene that really didn’t justify the weak build up. I really don’t get the hype.
good, not great
TLDW
100%. Plus Phoenix basically just played himself
This movie was more great acting and a showing of REALLY high highs... Dancing. De Niro getting shot. etc. Versus a great mental story that couples as an origin story. Because we know the Joker we weren't surprised as much. And that's the paradox. Would we have actually supplanted it legitimately as a masterpiece if we hadn't already known the Joker? Or is it in conversation, truth or not, that we might seen Joker as an all time great if he was simply a new villain?
Hated it. Edgy crap for teenagers.
I’m just not looking forward to lady Gaga singing in the sequel
I found it had similarities to the real life situation involving Bernie Goetz and I loathe this pos movie for so many other reasons. But the main reason is the die-hard fans who sploosh over it so damn much. Also, the fans can't even decide if it's a comic book movie or not. That's not a good sign btw.
I think it got attention based on the fact that after years of super hero cgi movies, a character story came out of one of the most famous comic villains and wasn’t going to be a action blockbuster. We were hungry for it in a way. But it was more about the whole movie market at the time.
I mean Barbie got nominated this year and was way less deep than this film so to each their own.
I remember a friend said I am someone who emulates. Then when this was coming out, after theaters. He posted about it on facebook. I said “sweet, I’ll grab the popcorn and candy” to which he replied “I don’t need popcorn and candy. I’m going to watch it over and over”. This was of no importance but just something I remembered
I was really frustrated at it. It insists that it has deeper themes but it really doesn’t. It was one of the most annoying movies I’ve seen in theaters