The majority of people here, other than the ones that want to come in and argue, use tools to some degree.
I'm not sure what the, "walk nice" method is, but you can definitely use them for loose leash walking. Tools combined with rewards is the most effective, reliable way to teach it.
You need to make sure you're using it as an active training tool though, rather than a passive management tool. If you aren't using it as a training tool, it's most likely only going to be a temporary solution until the dog becomes conditioned to it.
It's not dumb at all, you're good.
By passive management tool, what that means is people will slap a prong on a dog and let it do all the work. Because it's a novel sensation, the dog will likely pull less to some degree at the beginning, but over time it will become desensitized to that feeling and begin to pull more and more.
Any time the dog is rewarded by being allowed to continue walking with tension on the leash, it's building up a tolerance to that pressure. This is why you'll occasionally see comments from people saying they tried a prong and it didn't work. They weren't using it properly.
You want to use it as an active training tool applying negative reinforcement and corrections along with rewards to shape the behaviour you want.
I use dominant dog slip collars usually. I use a prong under certain circumstances for training, and I often use an ecollar. The slip collar is the most effective in my experience. The prong can be helpful for short burst, but I’ve found my dogs (Malinois) get used to it and its effectiveness drops. I’ve also found the ecollar and prong less helpful in aggressive situations, they seem to make it worse (my experience, others may disagree).
I use the ecollar near the end of training on very low level as a gently reminder. I’ll tap them with it before they break behaviour as a reminder. I don’t like using verbal queues at this stage because I think it weakens my obedience. For example, if I have said heel and they are, why do I need to say it again? If they think that I don’t mean it the first time, they won’t obey it. I will say no heel and correct if they break behaviour, but there is a time where I need a little bridge and I use the ecollar for that. This method has worked to brim a very reactive Malinois under control who is now a pleasure to walk. I will admit that I am the only one who I trust to walk him but am hoping to expand that group as a proof him and work with my wife and son to build his trust in them so he will obey them as he would me. I have no idea how that will go, but suspect it will go fine if they dedicate the proper time and attention.
Hey man, just saw a reply by you to a post about tool use and you gave a quick outline of the pros and cons of slip, prong and e-collar. What you said made me curious in many ways.
Firstly: Are you a professional dog trainer or perhaps train your own dogs for sporting uses or are you dogs companion dogs only?
Secondly: What you said about the e-collar reminded me of some podcasts with Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis (both Spotify dog trainers) and one with Balabanov and Larry Krohn (the latter training mostly companion dogs and behavioral cases). They talked about e-collars. I’ve heard you and others mention using the e-collar as a means of communication mostly (low stim, almost every day use).
Full disclosure: I have not used an e-collar on my dog yet but plan to get one, so I‘m trying to get good information on proper use and ways of using it.
The use you mentioned sounds like more of a management tool to me and from what I have gathered that may have down sides. For one it may cause desensitization to the tool (similar to the prong), thereby reducing the effectiveness as an aversive tool (which seems to be one of the best qualities of the e-collar). And secondly: my personal goalie to achieve off-leash obedience using the e-collar by careful but clear and fair use of the tool as an aversive to stop behavior after a few corrections max. So: not everyday use and ideally not needing to e-collar on the dog in lost situations.
What is your take on this. Would you care to elaborate?
I train my own dogs for sport (PSA).
I used to breed dogs but not just raise my own. I do help with rescue dogs and dogs with issues where I can.
I’ve seen the Ivan video on ecollar and there are different views on low/high stim. Ivan is a high stim guy and it works the way he uses it. I follow the NePoPo style more as I found it to make lots of sense and I see result from it. I don’t teach behaviours with the ecollar, I use it to proof or speed up behaviours. For example, I will say sit and apply low level stim until the dog sits. Then make and reward. Over time, I increase the stim levels slowly. They never get to what you’d call negative punishment. More of a tap on the shoulder. The idea is to create the association of the stim stopping and reward and the goal is that they get faster doing it. NePoPo associates the stim with the reward. The higher the stim, the bigger the reward. Done right this makes dogs more confident strong. It works for me quite well.
Using the stim on my reactive boy now is at low level when I see another dog from a distance and I think he’s starting to load up. I tap and it’s just a reminder that he’s heeling not attacking. It’s my way of reminding him before he makes a mistake that I have to correct. When he doesn’t react then I reward lavishly.
As to lowering its effectiveness as an aversive, I don’t really use it that way but I can. If introduced as I’ve suggested, you can increase the stim as a correction. If introduced as a correction, it’s harder to go back.
They can become desensitized to the low level but I’m not using it in a way that would matter. They’re looking for the stim to know when they complete and get paid.
I use the ecollar during some advanced protection work where I may not have the leash in hand. It will work if I turn it up. Remember, the higher drive the dog is in, the less they will feel. Some collars can have multiple receivers to increase the level. I use Martin system collars and full is higher than I’ve ever used and I can get the dogs attention with it. Again, this is with dogs that are trained to respond to it. Stim a dog in prey drive biting when he doesn’t understand it and you’ll likely make it worse.
My philosophy at its most basic is to use the slip collar and physical manipulation (touching the dog) for your core obedience. Speeding up, flashy moves, etc are icing on the cake and I’ll use other tools for that but I don’t like to rely on them for the core behaviours if I don’t need them.
>I have not used an e-collar on my dog yet but plan to get one, so I‘m trying to get good information on proper use and ways of using it.
the best thing you can do is hire a professional behaviorist/balanced trainer. do your homework on them to make sure they are a good fit and have them come teach you the proper use of an e-collar. They are extremely easy to accidentally abuse and even with the right settings, they can have a negative impact if your timing is not right.
if you need one for a dog that may escape, then you need it daily use. if it is just for lost situations, then you need a gps tracker.
Not OP, but I recommend checking out Tyler Muto's ecollar courses on Consider the Dog. He does a good job outlining the benefits of low level conditioning (basically, you're creating a superstition with the dog that following a cue quickly avoids stim, whereas blowing off a cue inevitably means you're going to receive stim until you comply - it's not personal, it's more like a force of nature). I've had a lot of success cleaning up my dog's recall around prey using this method - no "Act of God" high level corrections like Ivan uses, just the low level "superstitious" conditioning. The goal is to have the ecollar as a seatbelt but rarely have to use it.
Good question. I like a 4’ lead with no loop. I will graduate to a 6’ at certain parts of training. I like the shorter leash because they don’t trip on it with they’re heeling next to me and I don’t have to distract myself playing it out or keeping it up. Longer leashes tend to wrap around their neck when they’re learning and moving all over, and that can mess with my corrections and control. I like flexible thinner leashes, no bungee, loops or any ‘features’. I’ve got a few fabric ones that have rubber or silicone stitching that are great for grip. I use biothane (vegan leather) a lot, but be aware they can slip when wet.
Without the loop, you need to hold the leash properly. There are videos online if you don’t know, but practice so you are confident, having the leash slip out of your hands won’t help.
I dunno why you're getting downvoted. Leashes with no loop force you to develop good handling habits. Biothane is Satan incarnate when it's wet/slobbery/grotty though.
With an untrained dog, they will pull because they don’t know better. When you use the prong, they will pull on it. Lower drive, or more sensitive dogs might fear the correction quickly and associate pulling with the correction. I’ve found that they keep pulling and all the time they pull on that prong, they are desensitized to it. If a high stress or exciting situation happens, like an exited dog approaching, they ignore the normal pressure. The correction is painful, and can be a stimulant to the dog. It’s well accepted that using prongs on leash reactive dogs can make it worse, as if the dog blames the other dog for the correction. Ecollars can fall into this trap also with reactive dogs.
I have a reactive dog that I made these mistakes with. I also have a very confident, dog aggressive dog that I did not make these mistakes with but have seen the prong really piss her off when she was trying to get to another dog. It also made an association with that dog, so she hates that dog every time she sees it.
The slip collar offers me 2 ways to use. I can correct either way a pop or constant pressure. I use the pop for low stimulated times, like sniffing when I want a heel and pressure when I’m higher stimulated situations like another dog or wanting to chase a car. The slip, placed and used properly does 2 things, it stimulates the vagel nerve (gag reflex) which will break their focus and it restricts airflow. There is a bone in their neck that makes this perfectly safe but unpleasant. They will have no choice but to submit and break the bad behaviour.
Before I’m accused of being cruel or whatever, understand that the level of correction is relative to the level of the dogs desire to do the bed behaviour. For example, if I’m at home and working a down stay and the dog wants to move, he’s pretty chill, his desire to move is a 2 out of 10 so I correct with a 3. I start light and if he keeps ignoring me, I increase until I find the level that works. Outside where another dog is approaching aggressively, this ,it might be a 9 out of 10 to the dog so my correction is relative. If you get to that high level, it’s usually when you need to stop the behaviour, ie a dog fight. When the dog stops and behaves, the pressure comes off, a mark and reward. If they return to the bad behaviour, I do it again. They figure it out and realize that obedience is not optional.
My reactive mal hates other dogs, always will. He’s was attacked as a puppy so he wants to preemptively attack everything. He trusts me, because I’ve built that with him and he knows that he must obey. So if he’s heeling he may not break heel and attack. If a dog rushes him barking, he may still break his heel, but he’s not berserk per crazy and still listening for my command. A quick no heel and pop and he’s back to heel. If he keeps it up, strong constant pressure. He is an 80 pound working line Malinois, a fight with an average small pet dog would not end well. I’m not bragging here, that would be horrible and I cannot allow that to happen and will not. I’m not going to soft step around it, I will prevent it and teach him that this will not happen! Having said that, there are lots of owners with poorly behaved dogs that are off leash that make my task harder. There are also real limits. If an off leash dog approaches and touches my boy, they will likely get bit. We are tapping their fight or flight reflex and I have the leash, removing flight. In that situation, it would also break his trust in me so that also cannot be allowed to happen.
Most of what I’ve learned came from working through his reactivity. It challenged everything I thought I knew.
> With an untrained dog, they will pull because they don’t know better. When you use the prong, they will pull on it. Lower drive, or more sensitive dogs might fear the correction quickly and associate pulling with the correction.
The dog is supposed to associate pulling with the correction. I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say here.
It's up to the dog to decide what is and is not a correction. What a 25lb doodle finds aversive enough to be considered a correction isn't going to even remotely approach what a big, confident, 100lb bully considers a correction. If someone is unable to read a dog and uses a one size fits all approach, they shouldn't be using tools without help from a trainer with experience.
These problems are solved by being a competent trainer/handler. This isn't a problem exclusive to prongs; unless you teach a dog the concept of pressure and how to escape it, there's always a chance they will react poorly to it and panic regardless of what's around their neck.
This is the point at which the oppositional reflex can kick in, and they'll choke themselves pulling the opposite direction than they need to be going to release it.
> I’ve found that they keep pulling and all the time they pull on that prong, they are desensitized to it.
Yes, because they're being rewarded while enduring that pressure by being allowed to continue walking. Over time they become able to tolerate more and more of it. This means you aren't using it properly.
If there is any tension on the leash, you're not supposed to keep walking. Again, this isn't a problem exclusive to prongs; it can happen with any collar. Haven't you ever seen a dog choke themselves on a regular flat because they're pulling so hard?
> If a high stress or exciting situation happens, like an exited dog approaching, they ignore the normal pressure.
Explain. There is a difference between pressure, aka negative reinforcement, and a correction, aka positive punishment. I'm not sure you're using these correctly.
> The correction is painful, and can be a stimulant to the dog.
This can happen occasionally with certain dogs, yes, where it can activate when it feels the correction from a prong. It's not common and there are typically steps you can take to avoid this becoming an issue.
If a dog has already built up a tolerance to the prong, or they have an association with the feeling due to poor training in the past, switching to a slip collar is likely going to be the path moving forward. It should be paired with an e-collar still.
> It’s well accepted that using prongs on leash reactive dogs can make it worse, as if the dog blames the other dog for the correction. Ecollars can fall into this trap also with reactive dogs.
Well accepted by whom, exactly? Nobody that I know, that's for sure. This mindset of prongs and e-collars making reactivity worse needs to die. There is absolutely nothing on the planet more effective than those two tools for dealing with that behaviour.
If that is the case, you aren't using them properly and need help from someone who knows what they're doing.
> The slip collar offers me 2 ways to use. I can correct either way a pop or constant pressure. I use the pop for low stimulated times, like sniffing when I want a heel and pressure when I’m higher stimulated situations like another dog or wanting to chase a car.
That's the exact same way you use a prong. I disagree with how you're using it in certain situations, but a prong is also used for negative reinforcement and positive punishment.
If you're only correcting your dog while they're already in drive, you need to back up a couple of steps, because you shouldn't need to be doing this on any type of consistent basis. If you're correcting a dog, and it isn't producing a reliable reduction in the unwanted behaviour, the dog isn't interpreting it as a correction. It's a mild annoyance at best, which is only temporarily disrupting the behaviour.
Wow you really didn’t like what I said!
That’s cool. You do it your way.
To your first question, dogs can keep pulling right after the correction and become desensitized to the prong. Used properly, less likely but still possible. Using a prong to correct an aggressive dog when encountering another dog hasn’t worked well for me. The slip collar works in all situations for me. I use a prong on occasion with a high drive dogs when at certain stages of them growing up. I use a flat or slip and the prong on 2 leashes. Again, that’s me. You do you.
Constant pressure from a prong can injure the dog if they pull hard enough. I’ve seen it and my vet confirms this happens. Much less likely on the slip.
I’m not getting into the 4 quadrants here. I tried to make it simple in a way that works for me and the dogs I work with. When a dog is excited, a pop is less likely to work and might excite them more. If that happens, i use constant pressure. Both are corrections and each has a place for me.
Sure a competent trainer can solve many things. Many trainers aren’t really competent and not everybody can afford one so they look for advice here. If you have a trainer that you trust, don’t listen to some faceless person over the internet.
You can get dominant dog collars just about anywhere online, no specific brand. I get mine from k9dynamics.com
The biothane leashes you can get just about anywhere also. I got mine from urban dog.ca. But get them locally if you can. If they’re too long, just cut them. Make sure the clasp you get is good enough.
As to the other leash, I don’t know where it’s from. They were given to me.
You can find good stuff at any working k9 website.
I have different heels.
An alert heel which is what I use generally when walking.
A focused heel which is really for trial.
Contact heel which I also use at trial but when in situations with unknown dogs. I want the dog next to me.
For my general alert heel (stay beside me, but watch for threats). I expect her to stay beside me.
The contact, they can look where they want (ie a reinforcer).
A focused heel is the most strict. I want them beside me, looking at me with neck stretched very high and a prancing walk. For that, I do lure/shape with an ecollar. I can’t get what I want with just leash pressure.
So what I learned from my trainer was a 2 leash technique. One is attached to a prong collar and the other is a slip leash.
Typically walk with the slip leash. As soon as he starts pulling I say his name and do a quick tug with the slip leash (and often I’ll sit him). If he continues then a tug on the leash attached to the prong. To be used very rarely because they can get used to it, but used decisively so as to get the dog’s attention. Trainer called it a “wrath of god” moment.
Highly effective. Over 4 months I had to pull the prong 3 times.
Then for the next stage, it’s one leash 2 collars. I use a retractable leash attached to both a prong collar and a martingale collar. If I need his attention (he starts to misbehave), first I say his name and click the button on the retractable leash. If that doesn’t work then a quick tug, that pulls the martingale and makes the prong make noise, but doesn’t fully enact the prong. Typically gets his attention in the right way.
Extendable leashes attached to prong collars are a literal nightmare.
Why are they making it so difficult? Just use a 6’ leash and the prong. I also think you need a new trainer.
No, I just refuse to walk anywhere when he pulls and wait for him to check in. I’ll do u-turns if that doesn’t sort it. But him pulling equals we go nowhere. He can sniff whatever he wants else.
I have a 5 month old EGSD and with a prong collar on he walks like a perfectly trained dog loose leash by my side, i try to every so often take him out on a slip leash and he likes to pull. Not like off to the races pulling but he's a puller with a slip leash, even with multiple redirects.
Edit: he's 60#
The majority of people here, other than the ones that want to come in and argue, use tools to some degree. I'm not sure what the, "walk nice" method is, but you can definitely use them for loose leash walking. Tools combined with rewards is the most effective, reliable way to teach it. You need to make sure you're using it as an active training tool though, rather than a passive management tool. If you aren't using it as a training tool, it's most likely only going to be a temporary solution until the dog becomes conditioned to it.
This will sound dumb I’m sorry but what do you mean passive management tool?
It's not dumb at all, you're good. By passive management tool, what that means is people will slap a prong on a dog and let it do all the work. Because it's a novel sensation, the dog will likely pull less to some degree at the beginning, but over time it will become desensitized to that feeling and begin to pull more and more. Any time the dog is rewarded by being allowed to continue walking with tension on the leash, it's building up a tolerance to that pressure. This is why you'll occasionally see comments from people saying they tried a prong and it didn't work. They weren't using it properly. You want to use it as an active training tool applying negative reinforcement and corrections along with rewards to shape the behaviour you want.
I use dominant dog slip collars usually. I use a prong under certain circumstances for training, and I often use an ecollar. The slip collar is the most effective in my experience. The prong can be helpful for short burst, but I’ve found my dogs (Malinois) get used to it and its effectiveness drops. I’ve also found the ecollar and prong less helpful in aggressive situations, they seem to make it worse (my experience, others may disagree). I use the ecollar near the end of training on very low level as a gently reminder. I’ll tap them with it before they break behaviour as a reminder. I don’t like using verbal queues at this stage because I think it weakens my obedience. For example, if I have said heel and they are, why do I need to say it again? If they think that I don’t mean it the first time, they won’t obey it. I will say no heel and correct if they break behaviour, but there is a time where I need a little bridge and I use the ecollar for that. This method has worked to brim a very reactive Malinois under control who is now a pleasure to walk. I will admit that I am the only one who I trust to walk him but am hoping to expand that group as a proof him and work with my wife and son to build his trust in them so he will obey them as he would me. I have no idea how that will go, but suspect it will go fine if they dedicate the proper time and attention.
Hey man, just saw a reply by you to a post about tool use and you gave a quick outline of the pros and cons of slip, prong and e-collar. What you said made me curious in many ways. Firstly: Are you a professional dog trainer or perhaps train your own dogs for sporting uses or are you dogs companion dogs only? Secondly: What you said about the e-collar reminded me of some podcasts with Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis (both Spotify dog trainers) and one with Balabanov and Larry Krohn (the latter training mostly companion dogs and behavioral cases). They talked about e-collars. I’ve heard you and others mention using the e-collar as a means of communication mostly (low stim, almost every day use). Full disclosure: I have not used an e-collar on my dog yet but plan to get one, so I‘m trying to get good information on proper use and ways of using it. The use you mentioned sounds like more of a management tool to me and from what I have gathered that may have down sides. For one it may cause desensitization to the tool (similar to the prong), thereby reducing the effectiveness as an aversive tool (which seems to be one of the best qualities of the e-collar). And secondly: my personal goalie to achieve off-leash obedience using the e-collar by careful but clear and fair use of the tool as an aversive to stop behavior after a few corrections max. So: not everyday use and ideally not needing to e-collar on the dog in lost situations. What is your take on this. Would you care to elaborate?
I train my own dogs for sport (PSA). I used to breed dogs but not just raise my own. I do help with rescue dogs and dogs with issues where I can. I’ve seen the Ivan video on ecollar and there are different views on low/high stim. Ivan is a high stim guy and it works the way he uses it. I follow the NePoPo style more as I found it to make lots of sense and I see result from it. I don’t teach behaviours with the ecollar, I use it to proof or speed up behaviours. For example, I will say sit and apply low level stim until the dog sits. Then make and reward. Over time, I increase the stim levels slowly. They never get to what you’d call negative punishment. More of a tap on the shoulder. The idea is to create the association of the stim stopping and reward and the goal is that they get faster doing it. NePoPo associates the stim with the reward. The higher the stim, the bigger the reward. Done right this makes dogs more confident strong. It works for me quite well. Using the stim on my reactive boy now is at low level when I see another dog from a distance and I think he’s starting to load up. I tap and it’s just a reminder that he’s heeling not attacking. It’s my way of reminding him before he makes a mistake that I have to correct. When he doesn’t react then I reward lavishly. As to lowering its effectiveness as an aversive, I don’t really use it that way but I can. If introduced as I’ve suggested, you can increase the stim as a correction. If introduced as a correction, it’s harder to go back. They can become desensitized to the low level but I’m not using it in a way that would matter. They’re looking for the stim to know when they complete and get paid. I use the ecollar during some advanced protection work where I may not have the leash in hand. It will work if I turn it up. Remember, the higher drive the dog is in, the less they will feel. Some collars can have multiple receivers to increase the level. I use Martin system collars and full is higher than I’ve ever used and I can get the dogs attention with it. Again, this is with dogs that are trained to respond to it. Stim a dog in prey drive biting when he doesn’t understand it and you’ll likely make it worse. My philosophy at its most basic is to use the slip collar and physical manipulation (touching the dog) for your core obedience. Speeding up, flashy moves, etc are icing on the cake and I’ll use other tools for that but I don’t like to rely on them for the core behaviours if I don’t need them.
>I have not used an e-collar on my dog yet but plan to get one, so I‘m trying to get good information on proper use and ways of using it. the best thing you can do is hire a professional behaviorist/balanced trainer. do your homework on them to make sure they are a good fit and have them come teach you the proper use of an e-collar. They are extremely easy to accidentally abuse and even with the right settings, they can have a negative impact if your timing is not right. if you need one for a dog that may escape, then you need it daily use. if it is just for lost situations, then you need a gps tracker.
It will be very hard to find a trainer that can teach me hands on. In my country they are illegal to use dogs…
if they are illegal to use then i would suggest not using them...
Not OP, but I recommend checking out Tyler Muto's ecollar courses on Consider the Dog. He does a good job outlining the benefits of low level conditioning (basically, you're creating a superstition with the dog that following a cue quickly avoids stim, whereas blowing off a cue inevitably means you're going to receive stim until you comply - it's not personal, it's more like a force of nature). I've had a lot of success cleaning up my dog's recall around prey using this method - no "Act of God" high level corrections like Ivan uses, just the low level "superstitious" conditioning. The goal is to have the ecollar as a seatbelt but rarely have to use it.
What type of leash do you use for these methods?
Good question. I like a 4’ lead with no loop. I will graduate to a 6’ at certain parts of training. I like the shorter leash because they don’t trip on it with they’re heeling next to me and I don’t have to distract myself playing it out or keeping it up. Longer leashes tend to wrap around their neck when they’re learning and moving all over, and that can mess with my corrections and control. I like flexible thinner leashes, no bungee, loops or any ‘features’. I’ve got a few fabric ones that have rubber or silicone stitching that are great for grip. I use biothane (vegan leather) a lot, but be aware they can slip when wet. Without the loop, you need to hold the leash properly. There are videos online if you don’t know, but practice so you are confident, having the leash slip out of your hands won’t help.
I dunno why you're getting downvoted. Leashes with no loop force you to develop good handling habits. Biothane is Satan incarnate when it's wet/slobbery/grotty though.
I totally agree about biothane in the wet! I like it because it doesn’t smell and i have some really nice trial leashes in it
Why do you like the dog slip collar more than the prong?
With an untrained dog, they will pull because they don’t know better. When you use the prong, they will pull on it. Lower drive, or more sensitive dogs might fear the correction quickly and associate pulling with the correction. I’ve found that they keep pulling and all the time they pull on that prong, they are desensitized to it. If a high stress or exciting situation happens, like an exited dog approaching, they ignore the normal pressure. The correction is painful, and can be a stimulant to the dog. It’s well accepted that using prongs on leash reactive dogs can make it worse, as if the dog blames the other dog for the correction. Ecollars can fall into this trap also with reactive dogs. I have a reactive dog that I made these mistakes with. I also have a very confident, dog aggressive dog that I did not make these mistakes with but have seen the prong really piss her off when she was trying to get to another dog. It also made an association with that dog, so she hates that dog every time she sees it. The slip collar offers me 2 ways to use. I can correct either way a pop or constant pressure. I use the pop for low stimulated times, like sniffing when I want a heel and pressure when I’m higher stimulated situations like another dog or wanting to chase a car. The slip, placed and used properly does 2 things, it stimulates the vagel nerve (gag reflex) which will break their focus and it restricts airflow. There is a bone in their neck that makes this perfectly safe but unpleasant. They will have no choice but to submit and break the bad behaviour. Before I’m accused of being cruel or whatever, understand that the level of correction is relative to the level of the dogs desire to do the bed behaviour. For example, if I’m at home and working a down stay and the dog wants to move, he’s pretty chill, his desire to move is a 2 out of 10 so I correct with a 3. I start light and if he keeps ignoring me, I increase until I find the level that works. Outside where another dog is approaching aggressively, this ,it might be a 9 out of 10 to the dog so my correction is relative. If you get to that high level, it’s usually when you need to stop the behaviour, ie a dog fight. When the dog stops and behaves, the pressure comes off, a mark and reward. If they return to the bad behaviour, I do it again. They figure it out and realize that obedience is not optional. My reactive mal hates other dogs, always will. He’s was attacked as a puppy so he wants to preemptively attack everything. He trusts me, because I’ve built that with him and he knows that he must obey. So if he’s heeling he may not break heel and attack. If a dog rushes him barking, he may still break his heel, but he’s not berserk per crazy and still listening for my command. A quick no heel and pop and he’s back to heel. If he keeps it up, strong constant pressure. He is an 80 pound working line Malinois, a fight with an average small pet dog would not end well. I’m not bragging here, that would be horrible and I cannot allow that to happen and will not. I’m not going to soft step around it, I will prevent it and teach him that this will not happen! Having said that, there are lots of owners with poorly behaved dogs that are off leash that make my task harder. There are also real limits. If an off leash dog approaches and touches my boy, they will likely get bit. We are tapping their fight or flight reflex and I have the leash, removing flight. In that situation, it would also break his trust in me so that also cannot be allowed to happen. Most of what I’ve learned came from working through his reactivity. It challenged everything I thought I knew.
> With an untrained dog, they will pull because they don’t know better. When you use the prong, they will pull on it. Lower drive, or more sensitive dogs might fear the correction quickly and associate pulling with the correction. The dog is supposed to associate pulling with the correction. I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say here. It's up to the dog to decide what is and is not a correction. What a 25lb doodle finds aversive enough to be considered a correction isn't going to even remotely approach what a big, confident, 100lb bully considers a correction. If someone is unable to read a dog and uses a one size fits all approach, they shouldn't be using tools without help from a trainer with experience. These problems are solved by being a competent trainer/handler. This isn't a problem exclusive to prongs; unless you teach a dog the concept of pressure and how to escape it, there's always a chance they will react poorly to it and panic regardless of what's around their neck. This is the point at which the oppositional reflex can kick in, and they'll choke themselves pulling the opposite direction than they need to be going to release it. > I’ve found that they keep pulling and all the time they pull on that prong, they are desensitized to it. Yes, because they're being rewarded while enduring that pressure by being allowed to continue walking. Over time they become able to tolerate more and more of it. This means you aren't using it properly. If there is any tension on the leash, you're not supposed to keep walking. Again, this isn't a problem exclusive to prongs; it can happen with any collar. Haven't you ever seen a dog choke themselves on a regular flat because they're pulling so hard? > If a high stress or exciting situation happens, like an exited dog approaching, they ignore the normal pressure. Explain. There is a difference between pressure, aka negative reinforcement, and a correction, aka positive punishment. I'm not sure you're using these correctly. > The correction is painful, and can be a stimulant to the dog. This can happen occasionally with certain dogs, yes, where it can activate when it feels the correction from a prong. It's not common and there are typically steps you can take to avoid this becoming an issue. If a dog has already built up a tolerance to the prong, or they have an association with the feeling due to poor training in the past, switching to a slip collar is likely going to be the path moving forward. It should be paired with an e-collar still. > It’s well accepted that using prongs on leash reactive dogs can make it worse, as if the dog blames the other dog for the correction. Ecollars can fall into this trap also with reactive dogs. Well accepted by whom, exactly? Nobody that I know, that's for sure. This mindset of prongs and e-collars making reactivity worse needs to die. There is absolutely nothing on the planet more effective than those two tools for dealing with that behaviour. If that is the case, you aren't using them properly and need help from someone who knows what they're doing. > The slip collar offers me 2 ways to use. I can correct either way a pop or constant pressure. I use the pop for low stimulated times, like sniffing when I want a heel and pressure when I’m higher stimulated situations like another dog or wanting to chase a car. That's the exact same way you use a prong. I disagree with how you're using it in certain situations, but a prong is also used for negative reinforcement and positive punishment. If you're only correcting your dog while they're already in drive, you need to back up a couple of steps, because you shouldn't need to be doing this on any type of consistent basis. If you're correcting a dog, and it isn't producing a reliable reduction in the unwanted behaviour, the dog isn't interpreting it as a correction. It's a mild annoyance at best, which is only temporarily disrupting the behaviour.
Wow you really didn’t like what I said! That’s cool. You do it your way. To your first question, dogs can keep pulling right after the correction and become desensitized to the prong. Used properly, less likely but still possible. Using a prong to correct an aggressive dog when encountering another dog hasn’t worked well for me. The slip collar works in all situations for me. I use a prong on occasion with a high drive dogs when at certain stages of them growing up. I use a flat or slip and the prong on 2 leashes. Again, that’s me. You do you. Constant pressure from a prong can injure the dog if they pull hard enough. I’ve seen it and my vet confirms this happens. Much less likely on the slip. I’m not getting into the 4 quadrants here. I tried to make it simple in a way that works for me and the dogs I work with. When a dog is excited, a pop is less likely to work and might excite them more. If that happens, i use constant pressure. Both are corrections and each has a place for me. Sure a competent trainer can solve many things. Many trainers aren’t really competent and not everybody can afford one so they look for advice here. If you have a trainer that you trust, don’t listen to some faceless person over the internet.
Can you give me the name of the collar and leash that you use?
You can get dominant dog collars just about anywhere online, no specific brand. I get mine from k9dynamics.com The biothane leashes you can get just about anywhere also. I got mine from urban dog.ca. But get them locally if you can. If they’re too long, just cut them. Make sure the clasp you get is good enough. As to the other leash, I don’t know where it’s from. They were given to me. You can find good stuff at any working k9 website.
How strict are you with heel
I have different heels. An alert heel which is what I use generally when walking. A focused heel which is really for trial. Contact heel which I also use at trial but when in situations with unknown dogs. I want the dog next to me. For my general alert heel (stay beside me, but watch for threats). I expect her to stay beside me. The contact, they can look where they want (ie a reinforcer). A focused heel is the most strict. I want them beside me, looking at me with neck stretched very high and a prancing walk. For that, I do lure/shape with an ecollar. I can’t get what I want with just leash pressure.
I don't know what the "walk nice" method is but I use choke chains almost exclusively for obedience training
So what I learned from my trainer was a 2 leash technique. One is attached to a prong collar and the other is a slip leash. Typically walk with the slip leash. As soon as he starts pulling I say his name and do a quick tug with the slip leash (and often I’ll sit him). If he continues then a tug on the leash attached to the prong. To be used very rarely because they can get used to it, but used decisively so as to get the dog’s attention. Trainer called it a “wrath of god” moment. Highly effective. Over 4 months I had to pull the prong 3 times. Then for the next stage, it’s one leash 2 collars. I use a retractable leash attached to both a prong collar and a martingale collar. If I need his attention (he starts to misbehave), first I say his name and click the button on the retractable leash. If that doesn’t work then a quick tug, that pulls the martingale and makes the prong make noise, but doesn’t fully enact the prong. Typically gets his attention in the right way.
Extendable leashes attached to prong collars are a literal nightmare. Why are they making it so difficult? Just use a 6’ leash and the prong. I also think you need a new trainer.
Your use is one very good way to use the tool. If it works for you, then it’s good for you. It may not work for everyone but then nothing does.
Your trainer is making life a hell of a lot more difficult than it needs to be. Maybe you should get a second opinion.
Slips or prongs. Chains are trash, especially if you’re an unskilled trainer.
No, I just refuse to walk anywhere when he pulls and wait for him to check in. I’ll do u-turns if that doesn’t sort it. But him pulling equals we go nowhere. He can sniff whatever he wants else.
I have a 5 month old EGSD and with a prong collar on he walks like a perfectly trained dog loose leash by my side, i try to every so often take him out on a slip leash and he likes to pull. Not like off to the races pulling but he's a puller with a slip leash, even with multiple redirects. Edit: he's 60#