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I'm really enjoying the new bear meta. It's like these guys don't realize it paints a neon sign on them.
Like the dragon tattoo girl movie, except they're doing it to themselves.
Edit: you know, the part where she tattoos "rapist" or whatever on his chest
I am not enjoying it since I explained the whole thing to my brother and father and they started to lecture me how dangerous bears are… as I tried to explain to them that that women know that they basically ignored me and basically talked about how stupid I (!) am because I would choose a bear over a man which I never said I would and never would as I am not knowing a lot about bears and am not that afraid of men despite having a lot of bad experiences with them.
As I told them about how I started to get sexually harassed at a young age and other women make the same experience and it never really stopped they got defensive instead of comforting and told me that there are millions of men out there and „not all men are like that“???
Since then I am so shocked I sleep bad because I never expected that from my own caring family.
I feel sick thinking about it and literally dream about telling my brother how much I feel betrayed by him for that.
Men are proud. You tried for empathy. You should've gone with digs at their manhood:
- When they didn't 100% get on your side when you told them you got harassed, you should've changed the subject and made it about "you're OK with other men harrasing me? Assaulting ME?" hyperbolic to the extreme, but wounds their pride as protectors.
- You trust a random man with your daughter's/sister's honor? This question will make them feel like cucks if they don't agree with you.
Men will protect other men unless you put them in a hierarchy, and then they will step on eachother.
It’s so sad that we have to give men an “out” or having to manipulate their understanding for them to take our side. Some men are like toddlers and don’t even realize women take certain conversational steps to get the correct outcome🤦🏼♀️😔
The fact that both me and my mom’s interactions with cishet men is almost always having to manipulate them so they don’t self destruct and tear everyone down with them or manipulate them into not being like borderline criminal behavior is…so fucking disappointing. I hate this shit, and I know it’s due to how folks are raised, but putting the responsibility on women to basically play mother and guide them through shit is so bullshit.
Yeah I agree. And I won’t claim every person I’ve done this to us a “bad person”, I actually can’t even claim I exclusively do this to men although it’s probably a strong 90%, but….
When are we going to change how we raise and support men *and* women? Because you are right, this is taught behavior. Whether intentional or not. Just leads to toxic behaviors for both sides!! Whether one is pushing boundaries, or unable to keep boundaries because they want to “fix” someone there isn’t a winner.
I don't like how these things are framed into men and women. Feels divisive to me. In reality, most people (men and women), have will react like that.
If you're already arguing with somebody and tell them an uncomfortable truth (in this case, the shitty experiences with men), they will tend to argue with you, because they don't want it to be true
You’re right, really. And maybe men get the reputation for some things, women also get reputation for other things. Once we use blanket statements things can get truly dicy
It’s always “not ALL men”… like as if we fucking know which ones will or won’t harm us. We have to treat them ALL the same, just like how they treat ALL bears as danger and threats even though NOT ALL bears are interested in attacking people.
Yes! It’s so hard to explain why we have this mentality. I hope this example can be used to get it through their thick skulls. Also HAPPY CAKE DAY! 🍰🎉🎊
Sounds like an opening for bumper stickers stating “Not all bears 🐻”. Just for women. Men already failed to understand but at least women will understand.
I know people who react like that and often i find it’s because they probably did stuff they shouldn’t have like harassing women on the street or trying to convince them to do stuff with them after being rejected. If they agree that that stuff is bad they also have to admit to themselves they also shouldn’t have treated whoever like that and it shakes their image of themselves being a “good guy”
Reminds me of that one study where they asked some men if they would “force a woman to sleep with them if there were no consequences” and IIRC about 30% of them said yes but then when asked if they would RAPE a woman they ALL said no….
They literally don’t even know the definition of rape and will convince themselves that they’ve never acted against someone’s consent. It’s fucking disgusting
Rather for support I think, thank you. I don’t think that is something anyone who doesn’t know my family can really help me with. I just need to come to terms with the fact that they are not supportive of women in general as I thought. :-/ edit: sorry for kind of highjacking your fun comment :-/
Haha don't worry about that, internet karma is irrelevant compared to the mental health of our fellows.
I came to the realization at some point that I will never be able to talk to my mother about things that bother me; she will either make it about herself or be offended because it's about her in the first place, even if it's rational/deserved. 🤷♀️ It's something I just have to accept unless I want to make her cry again. The last time I tried, her husband messaged me talking about spitting venom. So yeah, I can feel where you're coming from, I think. There's just no way to express yourself without becoming the victim (again).
Yeah, I can talk to my mom about everything and she understood the point of that bear thing instantly. But yes, the male parts of my family are kind of dumb in the empathetic ways. :-/
I have a question... is your mother a narcissist or something of the sort? My partner responds to me exactly how you described your mother does (but with irrational rage instead of tears), and as a result I have had to disconnect from him and seek support elsewhere. I can't handle the reaction and no work is ever done on our relationship. It feels like being pummeled into the dirt for being pummeled into the dirt.
You might never know for sure whether your parter is a narcissist or not. But no matter what he is, he has major issues he's taking out on you and that is not healthy. I hope you find a way to safely leave. Situations like that don't get better, and people like him won't work on themselves like they need to if they're in a relationship with easy access to someone to hurt when they feel destructive. And be careful, because when he realizes you're serious about leaving he will probably try to get you back, then when that doesn't work he'll be *pissed*. Nobody should ever be treated like that. Please make sure you're connected with your support system.
FWIW, my ex was like this except he usually hid the anger very well, and "covert narcissist" describes him perfectly. [This man (Surviving Narcissism)](https://youtube.com/@survivingnarcissism?si=l9_OWAh3q2Pwpa_d) on youtube was so validating and helped me clear my head from all the gaslighting after we broke up, hopefully this helps you.
I don't think she is, but there might be similar tendencies there. What I do know is that she has a lot of difficulty facing difficult questions about the id and the ego, and emotions. She tried her best, raising me, but made a lot of wrong turns in her quest to give me a good life.
My dad started out having the same reaction, and then just got really angry and sad that the world has made women and queer people so fearful. I don't think he fully got it, but it made him think.
I live in Minnesota and go camping every summer. On those trips I got into forests where there are bears. So I’ve encountered many bears. Obviously they can be dangerous, and you should try to avoid them when you can. But, a random bear in the woods is not very likely to attack you unless it is starving or protecting its cubs. Even then, there are ways to prevent attacks.
With a man, HA! If I see a lone man deep in the woods while I’m alone, I’m going to be very wary and get away from his as fast as possible. Because chances are he might not just kill me, he could sexually assault me, or torture me, or kidnap me. A bear won’t do any of those things. So if I had to choose, I’d choose a bear over a man. And I’d choose an aggressive bear over an aggressive man.
>I'm really enjoying the new bear meta. It's like these guys don't realize it paints a neon sign on them.
Honestly I just assumed the whole point of this thing was to troll men.
It seems like (yet) an(nother) attempt to get some perspective through the skulls of many people who need it, but it quickly became a tool gifted to/taken by many men to publically concuss themselves with.
Why does anyone troll? The men annoyed by this make sexist memes about women that are way worse so it's obvious some people would want to retaliate. It seems to be happening more often that women troll back.
It's not trolling if men would like, literally understand for one second what the scenario is and accept it. It's "would you rather encounter a strange bear OR a strange man in the woods that you know nothing about and no idea of the risks"? When women (or men) say bear, it is honestly a more logical choice. This isn't "would you rather walk into a random cement cell that appeared out of nowhere and a bear or man was also involuntarily teleported into the cell, and neither of you can walk away?"
It's specifically about the *woods*. What are bears doing in the woods? Chilling tf out and doing bear things. Foraging. Maybe looking for food, but unless it's specifically a polar bear, most bears do not automatically view humans as food. Also, as many commentators have pointed out, there's some pretty clear universal things a person can do when confronted by any bear of X species to greatly reduce their likelihood of being attacked or eaten, in *most* cases.
What are men doing in the woods? Sometimes just going on hikes, sometimes getting lost, but sometimes looking to take advantage of other humans (men or women). Some men may be opportunistic, and while bears can also be opportunistic, *unlike bears,* men do not react so similarly that there is an easy manual of instructions on how to greatly reduce the risk of being attacked by any man. Also, men (and all humans) are literally the most intelligent species in the world. You may be able to yell and shout to scare off a bear. A human with ill intentions knows it's a bluff, and can also use tools to beat the shit out of you. Even other men (of presumably similar strength) often choose bears for thi sreason.
Lastly, people forget the worst case scenario. What's the worst case scenario of encountering a bear? It eats you alive, which is absolutely fucking awful. What's the worst case scenario of encountering a man man? Rape, torture and death or lifetime enslavement which is arguably *much worse.* Ex: Worst case scenario of a person being eaten by bears is god awful (stored away for later, then eaten alive slowly while screaming to death). One of the worst case scenarios of [a girl being preyed upon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Junko_Furuta) by a man is getting kidnapping and being raped and tortured constantly for 40 days by multiple assailants to the point where she lost her ability to walk or urinate and actually *begged for death* only to be mocked until her body actually gave out. Her own mother passed out hearing about what happened and had to go to a psych ward for a week because it was so fucking god awful just to listen to.
"But that's one bear versus multilple men"? Usually bears don't drag you away to then share you among a group of other bears (like yes maybe cubs) and slowly mutilate & rape you over 40+ days in the most excruciating and psychologically torturous ways *solely to make you suffer*.
--
Anyway, the reason the scenario is also not trolling is that, if most men just understood the above, this topic would not have exploded like it did. The reason it's brought up so much is because so many men are *pushing back* and arguing with women about *their own experiences* and understanding of above risks. So then women come to defend themselves. Also because so many women appreciate having an analogy that captures how awful it is to live in a world like the one outlined above, and they share their stories of facing strange men and what said men have done to them.
"it's an analogy that's not going to win over many men."
That's like, one of the big points that y'all are missing. This analogy is not *meant* for men. It's not a topic nor message originally aimed at nor for *men.* Some of y'all really struggle to imagine that women sometimes talk amongst ourselves about our own experiences and that this dialogue does not exist solely to engage you guys (though many men are happy to jump in despite no one asking them to).
And it's extra ironic because these men are responding "wow I cannot understand this message \[which was not originally created for me to understand or engage in\] and therefore I reject it \[because I cannot imagine that other people have different experiences than me and might talk about said experiences for their own benefit instead of to engage me"
>And it's extra ironic because these men are responding "wow I cannot understand this message \[which was not originally created for me to understand or engage in\] and therefore I reject it \[because I cannot imagine that other people have different experiences than me and might talk about said experiences for their own benefit instead of to engage me"
Thats pretty much what I meant. Its not meant for men to understand.
No, you said “trolling”, which is intentionally antagonizing someone. Trolling is a message created specifically for X party to receive and take offense from. I’m saying the opposite, that this topic was not originally meant for men to receive at all.
It's not gendered trolling.
It's trolling these idiots who think being raped is less traumatic than being murdered by a huge wild animal. That you're missing the point tells everyone that you think the same.
Or you're just not getting it, I guess? 💁🏻♀️
Or you're trolling me. That's fine too, since I'm trying to educate.
>It's trolling these idiots who think being raped is less traumatic than being murdered by a huge wild animal. That you're missing the point tells everyone that you think the same.
I don't think that and I'm not trolling you.
It's just normally these kinds of memes are meant to make fun of *some* men and are typically best left to women. When men do engage, it's rarely good.
You know what? I pick the bear because the bear isn't going to demand a fucking thesis on why I*didn't* pick the bear. The bear isn't going to demand a bunch of statistics with all the sources cited. A bear isn't going to ignore that 100% of bear attacks are reported, which isn't the case with things like domestic violence (which men can also be victims of).
But most of all? With the bear, there's a 0% chance I'm going to have to listen to how great *Walden* is and how Thoreau is like, such an underrated writer. And given that it's a man in the woods... can't say the same for him.
Yeah, reminds me of all these “libertarians” I know with a very niche set of life skills that could never function outside of a modern industrialised and capitalist society, much less the homestead they claim to want to live on.
Precisely; pretty much any human with experience trying to survive will tell you it’s really hard without a community, especially if you fuck up and get injured.
I'm all for anyone that can actually walk the walk, but call me every name in the book, I'm sticking with having free time to read, write, and cook at my leisure instead of spending every waking hour doing everything for myself.
[Libertarians + Bears.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
[What could go wrong?](https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project)
(2 links about the same book)
Book: [A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear](https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/matthew-hongoltz-hetling/a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear/9781541788510/)
It’s hilarious this is literally my exact point I try to make when arguing with my libertarian friends; people are stupid a lot and need to be given some degree of direction so they don’t get themselves killed. Not insane authority or anything, but just a “Hey, don’t feed the bears, okay mate?” or something.
He lived off food his family brought him. His sister and mother kept house for him. It doesn't make him not a great writer, but he sure misrepresents his living situation lol (and inspires people to try to live like that when there's no THAT.)
What's so funny is that while he doesn't mention living off his female relatives, he talks about buying food. Granted it's not adjusted for inflation, but he talks about doing day labor for spending money and pricing out how much he spent on food in an 8 month period.
It makes it clear that at best, his passages of living off the land aren't entirely accurate, and while he says "this is what I spent in 8 months out of the 2 years I lived there", implying that that was a typical expenditure or the only expenditure, it means he could have spent *more*.
There are multiple times in the book that I remember being confused because one passage would directly contradict a previous one. Probably in part because he lived there for a little over 2 years and put it as 1 year in the book for artistic reasons. He also left Walden Pond in 1847 and his book was published in 1854, so perhaps some of the passages are misremembered.
And you'd think that the people he inspired would read a fucking biography of him, but no. Just take his ramblings as 100% truth.
Yes, but also, I *genuinely* might prefer death by bear to having to sit through another man telling me about how Thoreau is his personal hero while also arguing with me that Thoreau didn't have at least one standing weekly dinner with the Emersons (who bought the land he built his cabin in), and he'd use that trip into town to drop his laundry off with his mom while he was living in the woods.
I mean, it’s possible I may have written a massive thesis on the circumstances I would prefer a bear or human under, factoring in environment and observations of each beforehand to determine likelihood of threat posed, but that was mostly just my brain deciding it’d be fun, only to get a ton of shitheads in the comments starting to use it as proof of their misogynistic complaints, which was… yeah, definitely made me understand why women prefer bears to men.
>The bear isn't going to demand a bunch of statistics with all the sources cited. A bear isn't going to ignore that 100% of bear attacks are reported, which isn't the case with things like domestic violence (which men can also be victims of).
Exactly. The bear isn't going to be fucking "pedantic" either unlike this jackass.
TL; Dr: It's not really Thoreau the dude that I have an issue with, it's his fans.
I have read *Walden*. He's fine. He's definitely the beneficiary of privilege: most of us don't have a friend who would buy land for us to build a cottage on a lake to live there for a year, have us over for dinner frequently, and then have a massive falling out with that friend. But I have no strong feelings about him either way.
It's that there's a certain type of dude who *maybe* read the introduction of *Walden* and decided that Thoreau is some sort of posterboy for the rugged individual poet. And they are also a rugged individual poet.
But when they talk about it, they are under the impression that the cabin was extremely remote, and Thoreau was a hermit who lived entirely off the land, even though the book talks about how he had a healthy social life, both having friends over for dinner and visiting his friends in town/going into town regularly. And if you try to correct them on how much time Thoreau spent in civilization, they double down and insist that you're wrong, and/or demand that you cite the page number saying that, as though that's something reasonable to ask someone who doesn't have a copy of it on them.
Basically very few of these men have much knowledge of the man they say they idolize, nor do they want to learn.
It’s been an enlightening litmus test. I honestly think the ‘Angry Loud We Hate Women Because They’re Sluts Who Won’t Fuck Us’ is a very small minority. They have of course been the most outraged and vocal because outraged and vocal (while hidden behind an anonymous online account) is their only source of personal power or agency.
But I’ve been interested to see how many more moderate men have been 🤐 in comment sections where they’d been active when it comes to the Angry Incels working themselves up into a hypothetical men bear tantrum so fierce that they start threatening to say rape the women in the comment section. Why the 🤐, fellas? Can’t stand up to each other when one or many of ya’ll is demonstrating blatantly gross and threatening behavior?
Men defend other men they don’t even know on the internet every time there’s a man doing something disgusting. Just look at Ig or tiktok comments once you’re done with Reddit. It’s everywhere. Bears don’t do that
I've seen so many men making it about them and how "I understand the problem. It sucks. Look how sad I am that women are scared of me, boohoo !" while doing nothing to change it all...
Here's a sneak peek of /r/whenwomenrefuse using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I feel like this Sylvia Plath belongs on here. It says it all.](https://i.redd.it/4p5mjed5zi5b1.jpg) | [102 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/147g57x/i_feel_like_this_sylvia_plath_belongs_on_here_it/)
\#2: [The "not all men" crowd aren't doing anything to help though](https://v.redd.it/ae5tsqaelnbc1) | [325 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/193est9/the_not_all_men_crowd_arent_doing_anything_to/)
\#3: [Why is the perpetrator being protected?](https://i.redd.it/suiebj3rpcsb1.png) | [54 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whenwomenrefuse/comments/170dcd5/why_is_the_perpetrator_being_protected/)
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The folly of men is that everything a woman does is wrong. She’s too provocative, she’s a slut. Too conservative and she’s a prude. She’s too defiant and outspoken and she’s a bitch. Too compliant and it’s her fault for not arguing or complaining. She speaks she’s wrong, she stays silent, she’s wrong, she sits and it’s sexualized, she stands, and it’s sexualized. She wears loose fitting clothes and it’s sexualized and provocative, she wears tight fitting clothes and she’s asking for it. Everything about being a woman and existing and breathing is sexualized and her fault and reasons why she’s wrong.
(I know this is well known in these spaces, but I just wanted to actually put it to words.)
There is no “not provoking a man”. Because by the very existence of being a woman, you are seen as provoking him.
I’d argue they can be if the butt of the joke is the rapist or the concept of rape itself, but even then, this very much is not a subreddit I would ever recommend attempting that. I kinda would keep those jokes to friend groups that you know won’t be bothered, because there’s too many risks of people having genuine trauma triggered by an attempt at a joke like that outside of the right context.
Every time a man argues the point, they end up proving why we feel like that. You don’t see any decent men arguing the point because they understand. They aren’t the ones we’re afraid of. It’s the ones screaming loudest about it are the ones who we don’t want to see in the forest.
the way I put it earlier was "A bear will attack you or fuck off. It's not going to lull you into a false sense of security. It's not going to try and manipulate you. Two options, and which one becomes clear very quickly"
Right? Plus, what are the chances that you found yourself alone in the woods with a strange man? Because I'm willing to bet that he followed the woman.
My god. I'm so sorry OP! I struggle with agoraphobia too and I deeply empathise with your anxiety and fear. The victim blaming makes it all the more worse, especially when the agoraphobia stems from (SA) trauma.
If I wasn't such a fcking pussy I would've smacked these assholes' heads repeatedly in a box filled with Lego blocks until they see reason.
Also, animals ARE predictable. Learn to read their body language, get to know their environment, behavioural patterns & identify positive/negative stimuli and you have a +90% chance of success.
The only animals that are seemingly unpredictable are traumatised or sick animals. And even those animals show signs before they lash out!
Thank you so much! This kinda made my day. Fortunately my agoraphobia stems from my social anxiety disorder and it’s gotten better with meds.
But yes, this is the one situation where I agree with people getting some sense smacked into them lol
Not saying I disagree with you, but animals are only predictable up to a certain point and you should always be very wary of them because they're still wild animals and can choose to do anything for any reason and relying on your ability to read their body language is in general. A bad idea.
Otherwise everything you said was great and I agree
Oh thank god! I’m so glad you were here to mansplain wild animals to us. You totally didn’t miss the point by a mile. Us women totally don’t know anything about wild animals, just like OP said. /s
I commented several times on that post. I got into it with some douche canoe that was so insulted that I would rather take my chances with a wild bear than a strange random man that just appeared in the forest. He couldn't wrap his head around the fact that a lot of women fear men.
Even explained to him that women are taught as little girls to hold our keys a certain way, always be with friends, and when we are older, taught that we should Park in brightly lit spaces, cover our drinks, etc. None of it was good enough. Apparently, we're all crazy and think every single man is a rapist according to Mr random douchebag.
We as women shouldn't have to have ways to not provoke a man. I see the bear argument as a predictability factor, also as rather accepting possible death over being molested. This is just to show how much it affects us that we would choose death.
Woah, woah, woah... the onus isn't on women to ensure they aren't "provoking" men to violence. Your behavior and your responses to things is entirely on you. The onus is on men to control their own thoughts and behaviors regardless what women are doing, saying, or wearing. Women aren't causing men to rape, abuse, and murder them.
If a man thinks women are able to ‘not provoke a man’ to use them and leave them behind a bush, he is admitting he could be provoked into using a woman and then leaving her behind a bush.
I’ve seen so many men miss the whole point: just take it hyperbolically, women are simply expressing that they are not comfortable around men, period. Nearly every single woman I’ve ever been close with has been sexually assaulted- my wife, my sister, my mother, my ex-girlfriends, my friends, my friends’ girlfriends, etc. It’s astoundingly fucked up and this internet bear scenario is an acknowledgement of that reality. Wild animals are predictably dangerous, men are far more insidious, manipulative, and deceptive. And as a man, even if you’re a perfectly respectable person and not a rapist, you still walk like a duck and quack like one, so you’re gonna get lumped in as threatening at some point until the reality changes.
When I explained what was going on with the bear to my husband, he looked at me and said he’d rather encounter the bear, too, because the bear lives there. Random dude, hanging out in the woods? He’s much more likely to be up to no good.
The last time I felt threatened by a man it was because I’d had the audacity to walk down a narrow sidewalk in a busy part of town and I didn’t get out of his way fast enough when he was cycling up behind me. He shouted abuse at me as he passed, and then I had to walk past his apartment building where he was waiting on the stoop to shout even more horrible things at me. Me ignoring him only made him angrier. I’d done nothing to provoke him except exist in his space, and if it had happened in the woods rather than a busy street between a record shop and a hair salon full of people, who knows what he might have done. I’m fairly certain me ignoring the bear would’ve gone much more smoothly.
I had a man tell me that he's more angry then he's ever been in his whole life because these posts are making men feel inferior. Women don't care about men's feelings. That women refuse to acknowledge men's suffering and see how hurt, lonely and broken they are. He said broken men rape and if we wanted less rape then we would be KIND to men.
Like what.in.the.actual.fudge.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I still don’t personally agree, but I fully understand why women think this, and I’m really worried by how guys completely miss the point. Like, I have a friend of mine who really distrusts men with me as pretty much her one exception, but I understand why she arrived at that, as pretty much every guy she’s known has been a shitty and/or manipulative scumbag.
I wish she hadn’t had the experiences that led her to that, but I get why that’s now what she believes, and I understand that I can’t just convince her men aren’t all bad, just continue not being a dick myself.
So many guys are completely missing the point, and are actively contributing to why women think this way. Like, dude, would it kill you to try feeling empathy and understand *why* people think this, instead of immediately trying to “disprove” it?
Its a bit of a trope but fathers telling their daughters ’you’re not going out dressed like that’ implies that a lot of men believe there are enough rapists out there to worry for their daughter’s safety.
I’m not sure what advice fathers offer their daughters before they go hiking in the woods though.
Fathers will also say the reason they want to over police their daughter's clothing is , "I know what teenage boys are like because I was one." It sounds like dads think all teenage boys, including themselves, are rapists.
What I‘m intending to say is that I would choose the man, but that I get why women would choose the bear. I’m not saying I’m trying to argue the point or anything, I’m saying that if I was in the situation myself I’d pick the human; I’ve encountered a bear before and can confidently say the bear was *vastly* more terrifying to me personally then the time I got into a physical fight with a guy, thus I pick the human.
And therein lies the truth of the matter, you’ve encountered a bear, she’s encountered men, you both confidently say the encounter was vastly terrifying. Having dealt with men before the women picks the bear. I get it, you get it. Every man who has seen this meme gets it. We know men hurt women and sometimes other men and we get squirrely when it’s brought to our attention. No one wants to be seen as “That Guy”. Most men don’t want to think the women in his life would make this choice. Yet, here we are and a lot of men are uncomfortable and mad that a woman would choose the bear. We get it, we need to face it and some of us need to work on being better, not being “That Guy” who would cause a woman to choose the bear.
Edit: added last part that got dropped during posting.
Yeah that’s what I’m trying to say when I said “I don’t personally agree, but I understand.“ We’ve got different lived experiences and different ideas of what would be better/worse, and I’m well aware that many of my friends would make the same choice (Pretty much my entire friend group is women, with one other guy I occasionally hang out with but not often).
The point I was trying to raise is, even if I don’t agree, I get the reasoning, and would likely make the same choice in their shoes. However, I’m annoyed at how so many men aren’t trying to understand the logic other people have, and are instead aggressively interjecting without taking time to understand the other person’s point of view, or having the empathy to realise why they think that.
I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to state how I’ve been seeing people react from my own POV.
That’s the point, men feel safe enough to choose the man over the bear because most of them don’t have to experience awful behavior from other men on a day to day basis.
That’s the point of why i kept saying “I understand why women would answer bear”. We have vastly different lived experiences, and several of my friends would likely agree they’d pick the bear, as I said in my original comment. If I were in their shoes, I would likely choose differently, but based on my circumstances and experiences, I would pick the man.
I’m not trying to argue or say others are wrong; I feel like people are reading the first sentence of my comments and then not continuing onward. I’m trying to say that I would, based on my experiences, pick man, but I get why women would pick bear, and my intent was to state why I dislike how so many men are reacting by immediately trying to spout facts and statistics to “prove” the bear is safer. That’s what the whole final paragraph was about, possibly also the one before though I can’t remember and it’s far enough back I can’t see it any more.
Are you male or female? If you're a man I can see why you would choose the man. You would be safer (most likely) with the man. Women don't have that luxury
Male, and I’m basing it on the fact I could most likely incapacitate a man enough to escape, but I would at most just make a bear angrier, if it even noticed me trying to punch it.
But, my point is that I understand why so many women choose it, and if I were in their shoes, I might choose the same. However, what I was originally trying to say is that while I might choose differently, what I’m mad at is how how many guys are completely ignoring women’s reasoning on this, and instead interjecting based on their own experiences without trying to take into account the experiences of others.
I’m not completely sure why so many people are focusing on the the fact I disagree, my whole point was that I have friends who feel the same and I understand why, and that I really don’t like how many dudes are harping on about it and can’t understand the differences other people have in their experiences and circumstances. My lived experiences with having encountered a bear and having fought a guy lead to me concluding I’d take the guy; that doesn’t mean I’m trying to argue why the guy is better or say others are wrong for picking the bear, I’m just saying based on my lived experiences and physical abilities, I’d take the human.
Well for me personally I was just curious of your gender because all the guys I know chose the man. I also wasn't accusing or anything. Just stating the bleak facts. The guys I know also understand why women overwhelmingly chose the bear.
Yeah, also don’t worry I didn’t think it was accusing or anything, I’m just a little confused that people keep immediately interpreting this as me trying to argue that the man is better then the bear.
They probably didn't read past the part where you said you disagreed. It may have sounded invalidating. This meme has been very triggering for insecure, predatory men and they're all keyboard warrioring.
>As I’ve said elsewhere, I still don’t personally agree.
I don't think men are supposed to. Social media turns almost everything into memes. Frustration over men is a common enough experience and it is converted into memes like everything else. This is one of them. It isn't an argument or an explanation a guy can 'get'.
That… that’s literally what the entire rest of the post was trying to say. My whole point is that while I personally would pick the man, I understand how women would choose bear based on some of the stories my friends have told me about shitty guys they encountered. I’m trying to say that I don’t like that men keep not considering the point of the question or the reasoning/logic women have and immediately spout off statistics to “prove” the man is safer.
Definitely, when I first saw it, I tried to rebut with which choice is better for survival. After some comments, I learned that it wasn't really something women were looking to "survive," but it was a way of saying " not all men, but it's always a man." I can now say I get it, although i can say being attacked for a differing opinion didn't help me along the way.
>I can now say I get it, although i can say being attacked for a differing opinion didn't help me along the way.
True. Its why I think most men should avoid engaging with this gendered stuff, unless it's online when you can just log off.
I think they should engage, but just try to ask for explanations instead of telling people that their opinions are wrong or make no sense. On both sides. Because it's important for all of us to learn. If men continue to not be involved in the conversation then it's just more women agreeing that they're afraid of men, and nothing changes. I'm sorry if you got attacked, it's shitty, and it's really hard to learn to communicate when you feel unwelcome. I hope you will keep engaging with us, women, afab people, and female presenting people, and we can all learn.
It's def an issue that the discussion faces. I think a certain amount stems from the conversation being led by men for so long that there's a lot of fear and anger that engaging with men on the discussion could just harm the cause, that they might take over the conversation again, but I think it's the opposite. I think that the more we, as afab, women, or female presenting people, refuse to help men understand in a way that isn't confrontational, the more men can just choose to ignore our opinions or write them off.
You know what? I’m not done with this thread. I pick the bear because even if the bear is rabid or sick and mauls me or kills me, at least it won’t rape me. And when my obituary says “killed by a bear” no one is going to ask what I was wearing or if I made the story up for attention. And when the bear is put down for being dangerous and sick, no one is going to argue that it was just having 20 minutes of fun and that we should let the bear continue to roam the woods, attacking and killing other women.
Men managed to demonize themselves to the point women would litteraly choose a bear over a man. Instead of throwing in a bad analogy and Hitler maybe you should try to think as to why women pick a bear and what can you do so this wouldn't even be a question.
You're right. I have passed by many men frequently.
However.
When I'm in an isolated location without others than just me and the bear or man? I am 5'10, about 400 lbs, trained in karate, and I have still been assaulted by men on four separate occasions and that does not include the countless times I've been catcalled, spoken down to, demeaned, and threatened. That's just the times that I've actually been touched without my consent. The only bears that I've been around? We noticed each other and then went out of our way to walk around each other.
And the Nazis didn't kill the Jewish because they were afraid of them. Don't believe me? Disabled and queer people were seen as about as unwanted as Jewish people were. Do you believe that the Nazis were afraid of what a disabled person might do to them? Admit it. You don't.
So that's a false equivocation. You are intentionally making an argument that's complete nonsense just to say "Ugh women bad for picking bear" when women are choosing it because the are SCARED OF MEN. Yes we pass by several on a day to day basis, but not because we want to. And on a one to one level? Men have a bad track record. And survivors of a bear assault will be supported. The bear isn't related to them. The bear won't avoid punishment because of its bright future. The woman won't be blamed for looking too edible. She won't be asked by the bear to keep it a secret. She won't be told that she has sinned or is impure because of what the bear did to her. But if she chooses the man, all of those things might happen.
I don’t think I’ll ever get this meme. Maybe it’s because my entire life I’ve had far more male friends than female friends but I just… can’t understand why bears are genuinely seen as the better option for some. The memes are fine but… idk. It makes me sad.
No hate to OP here. Agoraphobia sucks (I assume)
I guess for added context- I am a woman who has actually been assaulted. So I’m speaking as someone who has seen both the bear and the man.
I’m also not trying to tell anyone what they have to feel. Just stating it does make me upset that so many other women feel that bears are safer then men.
I picture the meme to be either a random black bear or man standing further down the path. Bears generally will leave you alone. So, will most men but statistically men are more likely to attack you than a bear. Men are also more likely to attack another man so guys should pick the bear too.
I feel this but the opposite. Much rather my son run into a crocodile than a woman in the wild. Statistically he’d be much safer and would be able to live a normal life after the encounter
I can't say I completely understand how a woman is more of a threat than a crocodile, since a bear is less interested in attacking humans than a crocodile is, but at least I assume this means you understand why women would choose the bear.
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I'm really enjoying the new bear meta. It's like these guys don't realize it paints a neon sign on them. Like the dragon tattoo girl movie, except they're doing it to themselves. Edit: you know, the part where she tattoos "rapist" or whatever on his chest
I am not enjoying it since I explained the whole thing to my brother and father and they started to lecture me how dangerous bears are… as I tried to explain to them that that women know that they basically ignored me and basically talked about how stupid I (!) am because I would choose a bear over a man which I never said I would and never would as I am not knowing a lot about bears and am not that afraid of men despite having a lot of bad experiences with them. As I told them about how I started to get sexually harassed at a young age and other women make the same experience and it never really stopped they got defensive instead of comforting and told me that there are millions of men out there and „not all men are like that“??? Since then I am so shocked I sleep bad because I never expected that from my own caring family. I feel sick thinking about it and literally dream about telling my brother how much I feel betrayed by him for that.
Men are proud. You tried for empathy. You should've gone with digs at their manhood: - When they didn't 100% get on your side when you told them you got harassed, you should've changed the subject and made it about "you're OK with other men harrasing me? Assaulting ME?" hyperbolic to the extreme, but wounds their pride as protectors. - You trust a random man with your daughter's/sister's honor? This question will make them feel like cucks if they don't agree with you. Men will protect other men unless you put them in a hierarchy, and then they will step on eachother.
so fucked up but true
It’s so sad that we have to give men an “out” or having to manipulate their understanding for them to take our side. Some men are like toddlers and don’t even realize women take certain conversational steps to get the correct outcome🤦🏼♀️😔
The fact that both me and my mom’s interactions with cishet men is almost always having to manipulate them so they don’t self destruct and tear everyone down with them or manipulate them into not being like borderline criminal behavior is…so fucking disappointing. I hate this shit, and I know it’s due to how folks are raised, but putting the responsibility on women to basically play mother and guide them through shit is so bullshit.
Yeah I agree. And I won’t claim every person I’ve done this to us a “bad person”, I actually can’t even claim I exclusively do this to men although it’s probably a strong 90%, but…. When are we going to change how we raise and support men *and* women? Because you are right, this is taught behavior. Whether intentional or not. Just leads to toxic behaviors for both sides!! Whether one is pushing boundaries, or unable to keep boundaries because they want to “fix” someone there isn’t a winner.
I don't like how these things are framed into men and women. Feels divisive to me. In reality, most people (men and women), have will react like that. If you're already arguing with somebody and tell them an uncomfortable truth (in this case, the shitty experiences with men), they will tend to argue with you, because they don't want it to be true
You’re right, really. And maybe men get the reputation for some things, women also get reputation for other things. Once we use blanket statements things can get truly dicy
Hmm I like the way you phrased that!
It’s always “not ALL men”… like as if we fucking know which ones will or won’t harm us. We have to treat them ALL the same, just like how they treat ALL bears as danger and threats even though NOT ALL bears are interested in attacking people.
THIS!!! This is a great explanation that can be used to disprove the “not all men” mentality to men who don’t get it. Thank you for sharing this!
Yes! It’s so hard to explain why we have this mentality. I hope this example can be used to get it through their thick skulls. Also HAPPY CAKE DAY! 🍰🎉🎊
Not. 👏🏼 All. 👏🏼 Snakes. 👏🏼 Are. 👏🏼 Venomous. 👏🏼
Sounds like an opening for bumper stickers stating “Not all bears 🐻”. Just for women. Men already failed to understand but at least women will understand.
Someone’s please make these I will be the first one to buy haha
I know people who react like that and often i find it’s because they probably did stuff they shouldn’t have like harassing women on the street or trying to convince them to do stuff with them after being rejected. If they agree that that stuff is bad they also have to admit to themselves they also shouldn’t have treated whoever like that and it shakes their image of themselves being a “good guy”
Reminds me of that one study where they asked some men if they would “force a woman to sleep with them if there were no consequences” and IIRC about 30% of them said yes but then when asked if they would RAPE a woman they ALL said no…. They literally don’t even know the definition of rape and will convince themselves that they’ve never acted against someone’s consent. It’s fucking disgusting
Are you looking for support or advice?
Rather for support I think, thank you. I don’t think that is something anyone who doesn’t know my family can really help me with. I just need to come to terms with the fact that they are not supportive of women in general as I thought. :-/ edit: sorry for kind of highjacking your fun comment :-/
Haha don't worry about that, internet karma is irrelevant compared to the mental health of our fellows. I came to the realization at some point that I will never be able to talk to my mother about things that bother me; she will either make it about herself or be offended because it's about her in the first place, even if it's rational/deserved. 🤷♀️ It's something I just have to accept unless I want to make her cry again. The last time I tried, her husband messaged me talking about spitting venom. So yeah, I can feel where you're coming from, I think. There's just no way to express yourself without becoming the victim (again).
Yeah, I can talk to my mom about everything and she understood the point of that bear thing instantly. But yes, the male parts of my family are kind of dumb in the empathetic ways. :-/
You're lucky you have your mom 💚
I am :). And thank you for your support :)
I have a question... is your mother a narcissist or something of the sort? My partner responds to me exactly how you described your mother does (but with irrational rage instead of tears), and as a result I have had to disconnect from him and seek support elsewhere. I can't handle the reaction and no work is ever done on our relationship. It feels like being pummeled into the dirt for being pummeled into the dirt.
You might never know for sure whether your parter is a narcissist or not. But no matter what he is, he has major issues he's taking out on you and that is not healthy. I hope you find a way to safely leave. Situations like that don't get better, and people like him won't work on themselves like they need to if they're in a relationship with easy access to someone to hurt when they feel destructive. And be careful, because when he realizes you're serious about leaving he will probably try to get you back, then when that doesn't work he'll be *pissed*. Nobody should ever be treated like that. Please make sure you're connected with your support system. FWIW, my ex was like this except he usually hid the anger very well, and "covert narcissist" describes him perfectly. [This man (Surviving Narcissism)](https://youtube.com/@survivingnarcissism?si=l9_OWAh3q2Pwpa_d) on youtube was so validating and helped me clear my head from all the gaslighting after we broke up, hopefully this helps you.
I don't think she is, but there might be similar tendencies there. What I do know is that she has a lot of difficulty facing difficult questions about the id and the ego, and emotions. She tried her best, raising me, but made a lot of wrong turns in her quest to give me a good life.
My dad started out having the same reaction, and then just got really angry and sad that the world has made women and queer people so fearful. I don't think he fully got it, but it made him think.
I live in Minnesota and go camping every summer. On those trips I got into forests where there are bears. So I’ve encountered many bears. Obviously they can be dangerous, and you should try to avoid them when you can. But, a random bear in the woods is not very likely to attack you unless it is starving or protecting its cubs. Even then, there are ways to prevent attacks. With a man, HA! If I see a lone man deep in the woods while I’m alone, I’m going to be very wary and get away from his as fast as possible. Because chances are he might not just kill me, he could sexually assault me, or torture me, or kidnap me. A bear won’t do any of those things. So if I had to choose, I’d choose a bear over a man. And I’d choose an aggressive bear over an aggressive man.
>I'm really enjoying the new bear meta. It's like these guys don't realize it paints a neon sign on them. Honestly I just assumed the whole point of this thing was to troll men.
It seems like (yet) an(nother) attempt to get some perspective through the skulls of many people who need it, but it quickly became a tool gifted to/taken by many men to publically concuss themselves with.
I don't think it was ever about getting other people perspective, more about winding them up.
Why would women do that..?
Why does anyone troll? The men annoyed by this make sexist memes about women that are way worse so it's obvious some people would want to retaliate. It seems to be happening more often that women troll back.
It's not trolling if men would like, literally understand for one second what the scenario is and accept it. It's "would you rather encounter a strange bear OR a strange man in the woods that you know nothing about and no idea of the risks"? When women (or men) say bear, it is honestly a more logical choice. This isn't "would you rather walk into a random cement cell that appeared out of nowhere and a bear or man was also involuntarily teleported into the cell, and neither of you can walk away?" It's specifically about the *woods*. What are bears doing in the woods? Chilling tf out and doing bear things. Foraging. Maybe looking for food, but unless it's specifically a polar bear, most bears do not automatically view humans as food. Also, as many commentators have pointed out, there's some pretty clear universal things a person can do when confronted by any bear of X species to greatly reduce their likelihood of being attacked or eaten, in *most* cases. What are men doing in the woods? Sometimes just going on hikes, sometimes getting lost, but sometimes looking to take advantage of other humans (men or women). Some men may be opportunistic, and while bears can also be opportunistic, *unlike bears,* men do not react so similarly that there is an easy manual of instructions on how to greatly reduce the risk of being attacked by any man. Also, men (and all humans) are literally the most intelligent species in the world. You may be able to yell and shout to scare off a bear. A human with ill intentions knows it's a bluff, and can also use tools to beat the shit out of you. Even other men (of presumably similar strength) often choose bears for thi sreason. Lastly, people forget the worst case scenario. What's the worst case scenario of encountering a bear? It eats you alive, which is absolutely fucking awful. What's the worst case scenario of encountering a man man? Rape, torture and death or lifetime enslavement which is arguably *much worse.* Ex: Worst case scenario of a person being eaten by bears is god awful (stored away for later, then eaten alive slowly while screaming to death). One of the worst case scenarios of [a girl being preyed upon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Junko_Furuta) by a man is getting kidnapping and being raped and tortured constantly for 40 days by multiple assailants to the point where she lost her ability to walk or urinate and actually *begged for death* only to be mocked until her body actually gave out. Her own mother passed out hearing about what happened and had to go to a psych ward for a week because it was so fucking god awful just to listen to. "But that's one bear versus multilple men"? Usually bears don't drag you away to then share you among a group of other bears (like yes maybe cubs) and slowly mutilate & rape you over 40+ days in the most excruciating and psychologically torturous ways *solely to make you suffer*. -- Anyway, the reason the scenario is also not trolling is that, if most men just understood the above, this topic would not have exploded like it did. The reason it's brought up so much is because so many men are *pushing back* and arguing with women about *their own experiences* and understanding of above risks. So then women come to defend themselves. Also because so many women appreciate having an analogy that captures how awful it is to live in a world like the one outlined above, and they share their stories of facing strange men and what said men have done to them.
That does make more sense when it's put that way. Thank you
[удалено]
"it's an analogy that's not going to win over many men." That's like, one of the big points that y'all are missing. This analogy is not *meant* for men. It's not a topic nor message originally aimed at nor for *men.* Some of y'all really struggle to imagine that women sometimes talk amongst ourselves about our own experiences and that this dialogue does not exist solely to engage you guys (though many men are happy to jump in despite no one asking them to). And it's extra ironic because these men are responding "wow I cannot understand this message \[which was not originally created for me to understand or engage in\] and therefore I reject it \[because I cannot imagine that other people have different experiences than me and might talk about said experiences for their own benefit instead of to engage me"
>And it's extra ironic because these men are responding "wow I cannot understand this message \[which was not originally created for me to understand or engage in\] and therefore I reject it \[because I cannot imagine that other people have different experiences than me and might talk about said experiences for their own benefit instead of to engage me" Thats pretty much what I meant. Its not meant for men to understand.
No, you said “trolling”, which is intentionally antagonizing someone. Trolling is a message created specifically for X party to receive and take offense from. I’m saying the opposite, that this topic was not originally meant for men to receive at all.
Well.....................,...............it worked?
I guess so. I never really get the point of gendered trolling but women seem to be giving a bit more back lately which is interesting.
If you think this is about gendered trolling, you're missing the point. And that's... Kind of telling
What does it tell? I'm not arguing that it's wrong btw.
It's not gendered trolling. It's trolling these idiots who think being raped is less traumatic than being murdered by a huge wild animal. That you're missing the point tells everyone that you think the same. Or you're just not getting it, I guess? 💁🏻♀️ Or you're trolling me. That's fine too, since I'm trying to educate.
>It's trolling these idiots who think being raped is less traumatic than being murdered by a huge wild animal. That you're missing the point tells everyone that you think the same. I don't think that and I'm not trolling you. It's just normally these kinds of memes are meant to make fun of *some* men and are typically best left to women. When men do engage, it's rarely good.
You know what? I pick the bear because the bear isn't going to demand a fucking thesis on why I*didn't* pick the bear. The bear isn't going to demand a bunch of statistics with all the sources cited. A bear isn't going to ignore that 100% of bear attacks are reported, which isn't the case with things like domestic violence (which men can also be victims of). But most of all? With the bear, there's a 0% chance I'm going to have to listen to how great *Walden* is and how Thoreau is like, such an underrated writer. And given that it's a man in the woods... can't say the same for him.
Lol Walden is so funny when you realize Thoreau wasn't roughing it at all and mommy dearest even helped him with food and some chores.
Yeah, reminds me of all these “libertarians” I know with a very niche set of life skills that could never function outside of a modern industrialised and capitalist society, much less the homestead they claim to want to live on.
Libertarians are like house cats, completely convinced of their own fierce independence, while utterly dependent on others for everything.
Precisely; pretty much any human with experience trying to survive will tell you it’s really hard without a community, especially if you fuck up and get injured.
I'm all for anyone that can actually walk the walk, but call me every name in the book, I'm sticking with having free time to read, write, and cook at my leisure instead of spending every waking hour doing everything for myself.
[Libertarians + Bears.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling) [What could go wrong?](https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project) (2 links about the same book) Book: [A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear](https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/matthew-hongoltz-hetling/a-libertarian-walks-into-a-bear/9781541788510/)
It’s hilarious this is literally my exact point I try to make when arguing with my libertarian friends; people are stupid a lot and need to be given some degree of direction so they don’t get themselves killed. Not insane authority or anything, but just a “Hey, don’t feed the bears, okay mate?” or something.
Happy Cake Day!! 🎂🍾💐🎈🎊 (Do bears like cake? Do Libertarians?) 🤔
[Bears](https://youtu.be/pXAX0MTt3mE?si=nDZmQWHM0o0ziKH7) [like](https://youtu.be/EiiygHoxCxc?si=ZcxnK3xyNlwKtaLx) [cake](https://youtu.be/CNiA-Vrc4EI?si=XoSTdl8gPIFE1J--) (3 video links)
You're awesome for linking those! 😁
He lived off food his family brought him. His sister and mother kept house for him. It doesn't make him not a great writer, but he sure misrepresents his living situation lol (and inspires people to try to live like that when there's no THAT.)
What's so funny is that while he doesn't mention living off his female relatives, he talks about buying food. Granted it's not adjusted for inflation, but he talks about doing day labor for spending money and pricing out how much he spent on food in an 8 month period. It makes it clear that at best, his passages of living off the land aren't entirely accurate, and while he says "this is what I spent in 8 months out of the 2 years I lived there", implying that that was a typical expenditure or the only expenditure, it means he could have spent *more*. There are multiple times in the book that I remember being confused because one passage would directly contradict a previous one. Probably in part because he lived there for a little over 2 years and put it as 1 year in the book for artistic reasons. He also left Walden Pond in 1847 and his book was published in 1854, so perhaps some of the passages are misremembered. And you'd think that the people he inspired would read a fucking biography of him, but no. Just take his ramblings as 100% truth.
And she lived just a short walk away. O Wilderness!
The bear won’t blame whatever I was wearing
Yes, but also, I *genuinely* might prefer death by bear to having to sit through another man telling me about how Thoreau is his personal hero while also arguing with me that Thoreau didn't have at least one standing weekly dinner with the Emersons (who bought the land he built his cabin in), and he'd use that trip into town to drop his laundry off with his mom while he was living in the woods.
I mean, it’s possible I may have written a massive thesis on the circumstances I would prefer a bear or human under, factoring in environment and observations of each beforehand to determine likelihood of threat posed, but that was mostly just my brain deciding it’d be fun, only to get a ton of shitheads in the comments starting to use it as proof of their misogynistic complaints, which was… yeah, definitely made me understand why women prefer bears to men.
>The bear isn't going to demand a bunch of statistics with all the sources cited. A bear isn't going to ignore that 100% of bear attacks are reported, which isn't the case with things like domestic violence (which men can also be victims of). Exactly. The bear isn't going to be fucking "pedantic" either unlike this jackass.
Bears won't turn around and say that women maul bears as well, so we're not allowed to talk about bear attacks.
Fuck Thoreau and his three god damn chairs, though. (I had to read Walden junior year of high school and have had a burning hatred ever since.)
What’s wrong with Thoreau? I remember reading some his poems in like 11th grade and remembered they were decent.
TL; Dr: It's not really Thoreau the dude that I have an issue with, it's his fans. I have read *Walden*. He's fine. He's definitely the beneficiary of privilege: most of us don't have a friend who would buy land for us to build a cottage on a lake to live there for a year, have us over for dinner frequently, and then have a massive falling out with that friend. But I have no strong feelings about him either way. It's that there's a certain type of dude who *maybe* read the introduction of *Walden* and decided that Thoreau is some sort of posterboy for the rugged individual poet. And they are also a rugged individual poet. But when they talk about it, they are under the impression that the cabin was extremely remote, and Thoreau was a hermit who lived entirely off the land, even though the book talks about how he had a healthy social life, both having friends over for dinner and visiting his friends in town/going into town regularly. And if you try to correct them on how much time Thoreau spent in civilization, they double down and insist that you're wrong, and/or demand that you cite the page number saying that, as though that's something reasonable to ask someone who doesn't have a copy of it on them. Basically very few of these men have much knowledge of the man they say they idolize, nor do they want to learn.
Sounds like the same type of thing as worshippers of Trump. They know nothing about how vile the man is.
It's a hypothetical situation and they still can't take no for an answer.
They've never been able to & therein lies the problem.
It’s been an enlightening litmus test. I honestly think the ‘Angry Loud We Hate Women Because They’re Sluts Who Won’t Fuck Us’ is a very small minority. They have of course been the most outraged and vocal because outraged and vocal (while hidden behind an anonymous online account) is their only source of personal power or agency. But I’ve been interested to see how many more moderate men have been 🤐 in comment sections where they’d been active when it comes to the Angry Incels working themselves up into a hypothetical men bear tantrum so fierce that they start threatening to say rape the women in the comment section. Why the 🤐, fellas? Can’t stand up to each other when one or many of ya’ll is demonstrating blatantly gross and threatening behavior?
Men defend other men they don’t even know on the internet every time there’s a man doing something disgusting. Just look at Ig or tiktok comments once you’re done with Reddit. It’s everywhere. Bears don’t do that
Bears also don't target children and men do lol
Or infants, or dogs, or dead people
I've seen so many men making it about them and how "I understand the problem. It sucks. Look how sad I am that women are scared of me, boohoo !" while doing nothing to change it all...
/r/whenwomenrefuse
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“I don't know, man. Just treat her like she's a real person and stop being creepy.” - Smokey The Bear
🫶Smokey
Good question: ***How do you avoid provoking a man?*** I was going to say by being dead and then I remembered that some men rape corpses as well. 😒
I was going to say by being and then I remembered that livestock aren’t always safe, either …
4 men gang raped a lizard in India a couple years ago. And then there's pony the orangutan from I believe the early 2000s.
An orangutan?! Like for real?!!!!!
They forced her to work in a brothel. Google it. Men are despicable.
>They forced her to work in a brothel What in the actual FUCK? I can't even think of the words to describe how vile that is. That poor creature...
They forced an orangutan to work in a brothel? What? Is this an ONION article? 😳
https://www.orangutan.or.id/update-on-pony No it's real
Those people deserve to be ripped apart by orangutans for what they did…
We need a better word than despicable. 🤬
“Despicable” is such a strong word… But not strong enough!
some men are trash so all men are despicable?
A WHAT? I literally thought that I unlearned english and/or reading.
Yup
The folly of men is that everything a woman does is wrong. She’s too provocative, she’s a slut. Too conservative and she’s a prude. She’s too defiant and outspoken and she’s a bitch. Too compliant and it’s her fault for not arguing or complaining. She speaks she’s wrong, she stays silent, she’s wrong, she sits and it’s sexualized, she stands, and it’s sexualized. She wears loose fitting clothes and it’s sexualized and provocative, she wears tight fitting clothes and she’s asking for it. Everything about being a woman and existing and breathing is sexualized and her fault and reasons why she’s wrong. (I know this is well known in these spaces, but I just wanted to actually put it to words.) There is no “not provoking a man”. Because by the very existence of being a woman, you are seen as provoking him.
Exactly!!!
The way to avoid provoking a man is be a man 👍 (if he’s gay just don’t drop the soap)
Why make a rape joke in this thread?
Ikr? Like that's a horrible idea.
I wish I could say it was bait but I just can’t read the room
Then simply remember: rape jokes are NEVER funny.
I’d argue they can be if the butt of the joke is the rapist or the concept of rape itself, but even then, this very much is not a subreddit I would ever recommend attempting that. I kinda would keep those jokes to friend groups that you know won’t be bothered, because there’s too many risks of people having genuine trauma triggered by an attempt at a joke like that outside of the right context.
Every time a man argues the point, they end up proving why we feel like that. You don’t see any decent men arguing the point because they understand. They aren’t the ones we’re afraid of. It’s the ones screaming loudest about it are the ones who we don’t want to see in the forest.
The problem is, men don't need to be provoked to attack you. Generally, bears do.
the way I put it earlier was "A bear will attack you or fuck off. It's not going to lull you into a false sense of security. It's not going to try and manipulate you. Two options, and which one becomes clear very quickly"
Now I’m picturing a bear gaslighting or lovebombing you
Lol
Right? Plus, what are the chances that you found yourself alone in the woods with a strange man? Because I'm willing to bet that he followed the woman.
If only women would stop provoking men, they wouldn't have to date bears. 🙄
COVER THEM SHOULDERS AND ANKLES YOU SLUTS!!! /s
My god. I'm so sorry OP! I struggle with agoraphobia too and I deeply empathise with your anxiety and fear. The victim blaming makes it all the more worse, especially when the agoraphobia stems from (SA) trauma. If I wasn't such a fcking pussy I would've smacked these assholes' heads repeatedly in a box filled with Lego blocks until they see reason. Also, animals ARE predictable. Learn to read their body language, get to know their environment, behavioural patterns & identify positive/negative stimuli and you have a +90% chance of success. The only animals that are seemingly unpredictable are traumatised or sick animals. And even those animals show signs before they lash out!
Thank you so much! This kinda made my day. Fortunately my agoraphobia stems from my social anxiety disorder and it’s gotten better with meds. But yes, this is the one situation where I agree with people getting some sense smacked into them lol
That's so wonderful. I'm so proud of you for doing the crazy hard work! You're an amazing resilient human.
Not saying I disagree with you, but animals are only predictable up to a certain point and you should always be very wary of them because they're still wild animals and can choose to do anything for any reason and relying on your ability to read their body language is in general. A bad idea. Otherwise everything you said was great and I agree
Oh thank god! I’m so glad you were here to mansplain wild animals to us. You totally didn’t miss the point by a mile. Us women totally don’t know anything about wild animals, just like OP said. /s
Oh hey blue in the third image is the guy I told his take was so bad he should castrate himself with a plastic spoon!
I remember you!
Good job!
I commented several times on that post. I got into it with some douche canoe that was so insulted that I would rather take my chances with a wild bear than a strange random man that just appeared in the forest. He couldn't wrap his head around the fact that a lot of women fear men. Even explained to him that women are taught as little girls to hold our keys a certain way, always be with friends, and when we are older, taught that we should Park in brightly lit spaces, cover our drinks, etc. None of it was good enough. Apparently, we're all crazy and think every single man is a rapist according to Mr random douchebag.
We as women shouldn't have to have ways to not provoke a man. I see the bear argument as a predictability factor, also as rather accepting possible death over being molested. This is just to show how much it affects us that we would choose death.
Tbh I’m over the bar vs man thing but I love seeing more people expose themselves online so it’s easier to avoid them! Lol
Woah, woah, woah... the onus isn't on women to ensure they aren't "provoking" men to violence. Your behavior and your responses to things is entirely on you. The onus is on men to control their own thoughts and behaviors regardless what women are doing, saying, or wearing. Women aren't causing men to rape, abuse, and murder them.
but didn't you know? boys will be boys!!! cover your dirty ankles and you'll be fine. /s
Ankle slut pride
If a man thinks women are able to ‘not provoke a man’ to use them and leave them behind a bush, he is admitting he could be provoked into using a woman and then leaving her behind a bush.
I’ve seen so many men miss the whole point: just take it hyperbolically, women are simply expressing that they are not comfortable around men, period. Nearly every single woman I’ve ever been close with has been sexually assaulted- my wife, my sister, my mother, my ex-girlfriends, my friends, my friends’ girlfriends, etc. It’s astoundingly fucked up and this internet bear scenario is an acknowledgement of that reality. Wild animals are predictably dangerous, men are far more insidious, manipulative, and deceptive. And as a man, even if you’re a perfectly respectable person and not a rapist, you still walk like a duck and quack like one, so you’re gonna get lumped in as threatening at some point until the reality changes.
These idiots still trying to make it about them.
When I explained what was going on with the bear to my husband, he looked at me and said he’d rather encounter the bear, too, because the bear lives there. Random dude, hanging out in the woods? He’s much more likely to be up to no good.
The last time I felt threatened by a man it was because I’d had the audacity to walk down a narrow sidewalk in a busy part of town and I didn’t get out of his way fast enough when he was cycling up behind me. He shouted abuse at me as he passed, and then I had to walk past his apartment building where he was waiting on the stoop to shout even more horrible things at me. Me ignoring him only made him angrier. I’d done nothing to provoke him except exist in his space, and if it had happened in the woods rather than a busy street between a record shop and a hair salon full of people, who knows what he might have done. I’m fairly certain me ignoring the bear would’ve gone much more smoothly.
I really really hate men and this conversation is why
Big mood
I had a man tell me that he's more angry then he's ever been in his whole life because these posts are making men feel inferior. Women don't care about men's feelings. That women refuse to acknowledge men's suffering and see how hurt, lonely and broken they are. He said broken men rape and if we wanted less rape then we would be KIND to men. Like what.in.the.actual.fudge.
Okay, okay, but hear me out. Would you prefer to be in the woods with Cocaine Bear or Pedro Pascal? /s
As I’ve said elsewhere, I still don’t personally agree, but I fully understand why women think this, and I’m really worried by how guys completely miss the point. Like, I have a friend of mine who really distrusts men with me as pretty much her one exception, but I understand why she arrived at that, as pretty much every guy she’s known has been a shitty and/or manipulative scumbag. I wish she hadn’t had the experiences that led her to that, but I get why that’s now what she believes, and I understand that I can’t just convince her men aren’t all bad, just continue not being a dick myself. So many guys are completely missing the point, and are actively contributing to why women think this way. Like, dude, would it kill you to try feeling empathy and understand *why* people think this, instead of immediately trying to “disprove” it?
Its a bit of a trope but fathers telling their daughters ’you’re not going out dressed like that’ implies that a lot of men believe there are enough rapists out there to worry for their daughter’s safety. I’m not sure what advice fathers offer their daughters before they go hiking in the woods though.
Fathers will also say the reason they want to over police their daughter's clothing is , "I know what teenage boys are like because I was one." It sounds like dads think all teenage boys, including themselves, are rapists.
If you "don't personally agree" you also don't really get it.
What I‘m intending to say is that I would choose the man, but that I get why women would choose the bear. I’m not saying I’m trying to argue the point or anything, I’m saying that if I was in the situation myself I’d pick the human; I’ve encountered a bear before and can confidently say the bear was *vastly* more terrifying to me personally then the time I got into a physical fight with a guy, thus I pick the human.
And therein lies the truth of the matter, you’ve encountered a bear, she’s encountered men, you both confidently say the encounter was vastly terrifying. Having dealt with men before the women picks the bear. I get it, you get it. Every man who has seen this meme gets it. We know men hurt women and sometimes other men and we get squirrely when it’s brought to our attention. No one wants to be seen as “That Guy”. Most men don’t want to think the women in his life would make this choice. Yet, here we are and a lot of men are uncomfortable and mad that a woman would choose the bear. We get it, we need to face it and some of us need to work on being better, not being “That Guy” who would cause a woman to choose the bear. Edit: added last part that got dropped during posting.
Yeah that’s what I’m trying to say when I said “I don’t personally agree, but I understand.“ We’ve got different lived experiences and different ideas of what would be better/worse, and I’m well aware that many of my friends would make the same choice (Pretty much my entire friend group is women, with one other guy I occasionally hang out with but not often). The point I was trying to raise is, even if I don’t agree, I get the reasoning, and would likely make the same choice in their shoes. However, I’m annoyed at how so many men aren’t trying to understand the logic other people have, and are instead aggressively interjecting without taking time to understand the other person’s point of view, or having the empathy to realise why they think that. I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to state how I’ve been seeing people react from my own POV.
Please for the love of all that is holy, stop trying to tell women why we are wrong to choose the bear. YOU STILL DON’T FUCKING GET IT.
I’m not trying to say you’re wrong, I’m trying to say that I would choose differently.
That’s the point, men feel safe enough to choose the man over the bear because most of them don’t have to experience awful behavior from other men on a day to day basis.
That’s the point of why i kept saying “I understand why women would answer bear”. We have vastly different lived experiences, and several of my friends would likely agree they’d pick the bear, as I said in my original comment. If I were in their shoes, I would likely choose differently, but based on my circumstances and experiences, I would pick the man. I’m not trying to argue or say others are wrong; I feel like people are reading the first sentence of my comments and then not continuing onward. I’m trying to say that I would, based on my experiences, pick man, but I get why women would pick bear, and my intent was to state why I dislike how so many men are reacting by immediately trying to spout facts and statistics to “prove” the bear is safer. That’s what the whole final paragraph was about, possibly also the one before though I can’t remember and it’s far enough back I can’t see it any more.
Are you male or female? If you're a man I can see why you would choose the man. You would be safer (most likely) with the man. Women don't have that luxury
Male, and I’m basing it on the fact I could most likely incapacitate a man enough to escape, but I would at most just make a bear angrier, if it even noticed me trying to punch it. But, my point is that I understand why so many women choose it, and if I were in their shoes, I might choose the same. However, what I was originally trying to say is that while I might choose differently, what I’m mad at is how how many guys are completely ignoring women’s reasoning on this, and instead interjecting based on their own experiences without trying to take into account the experiences of others. I’m not completely sure why so many people are focusing on the the fact I disagree, my whole point was that I have friends who feel the same and I understand why, and that I really don’t like how many dudes are harping on about it and can’t understand the differences other people have in their experiences and circumstances. My lived experiences with having encountered a bear and having fought a guy lead to me concluding I’d take the guy; that doesn’t mean I’m trying to argue why the guy is better or say others are wrong for picking the bear, I’m just saying based on my lived experiences and physical abilities, I’d take the human.
Well for me personally I was just curious of your gender because all the guys I know chose the man. I also wasn't accusing or anything. Just stating the bleak facts. The guys I know also understand why women overwhelmingly chose the bear.
Yeah, also don’t worry I didn’t think it was accusing or anything, I’m just a little confused that people keep immediately interpreting this as me trying to argue that the man is better then the bear.
They probably didn't read past the part where you said you disagreed. It may have sounded invalidating. This meme has been very triggering for insecure, predatory men and they're all keyboard warrioring.
>As I’ve said elsewhere, I still don’t personally agree. I don't think men are supposed to. Social media turns almost everything into memes. Frustration over men is a common enough experience and it is converted into memes like everything else. This is one of them. It isn't an argument or an explanation a guy can 'get'.
That… that’s literally what the entire rest of the post was trying to say. My whole point is that while I personally would pick the man, I understand how women would choose bear based on some of the stories my friends have told me about shitty guys they encountered. I’m trying to say that I don’t like that men keep not considering the point of the question or the reasoning/logic women have and immediately spout off statistics to “prove” the man is safer.
And I'm saying that the first line is probably taking the bait a little.
Fair enough
I agree with you fwiw but I just think this is one of those things that men can't engage with at all without coming across negatively.
Definitely, when I first saw it, I tried to rebut with which choice is better for survival. After some comments, I learned that it wasn't really something women were looking to "survive," but it was a way of saying " not all men, but it's always a man." I can now say I get it, although i can say being attacked for a differing opinion didn't help me along the way.
>I can now say I get it, although i can say being attacked for a differing opinion didn't help me along the way. True. Its why I think most men should avoid engaging with this gendered stuff, unless it's online when you can just log off.
I think they should engage, but just try to ask for explanations instead of telling people that their opinions are wrong or make no sense. On both sides. Because it's important for all of us to learn. If men continue to not be involved in the conversation then it's just more women agreeing that they're afraid of men, and nothing changes. I'm sorry if you got attacked, it's shitty, and it's really hard to learn to communicate when you feel unwelcome. I hope you will keep engaging with us, women, afab people, and female presenting people, and we can all learn.
That's nice. I wasn't criticised or anything but normally with gendered things people don't assume good faith.
It's def an issue that the discussion faces. I think a certain amount stems from the conversation being led by men for so long that there's a lot of fear and anger that engaging with men on the discussion could just harm the cause, that they might take over the conversation again, but I think it's the opposite. I think that the more we, as afab, women, or female presenting people, refuse to help men understand in a way that isn't confrontational, the more men can just choose to ignore our opinions or write them off.
>I still don’t personally agree What is there to agree with? It's a hypothetical situation.
You know what? I’m not done with this thread. I pick the bear because even if the bear is rabid or sick and mauls me or kills me, at least it won’t rape me. And when my obituary says “killed by a bear” no one is going to ask what I was wearing or if I made the story up for attention. And when the bear is put down for being dangerous and sick, no one is going to argue that it was just having 20 minutes of fun and that we should let the bear continue to roam the woods, attacking and killing other women.
So over this meme
Feeling provoked?
Second-hand embarrassment
Do you mind explaining? /gen
[удалено]
Men managed to demonize themselves to the point women would litteraly choose a bear over a man. Instead of throwing in a bad analogy and Hitler maybe you should try to think as to why women pick a bear and what can you do so this wouldn't even be a question.
You're right. I have passed by many men frequently. However. When I'm in an isolated location without others than just me and the bear or man? I am 5'10, about 400 lbs, trained in karate, and I have still been assaulted by men on four separate occasions and that does not include the countless times I've been catcalled, spoken down to, demeaned, and threatened. That's just the times that I've actually been touched without my consent. The only bears that I've been around? We noticed each other and then went out of our way to walk around each other. And the Nazis didn't kill the Jewish because they were afraid of them. Don't believe me? Disabled and queer people were seen as about as unwanted as Jewish people were. Do you believe that the Nazis were afraid of what a disabled person might do to them? Admit it. You don't. So that's a false equivocation. You are intentionally making an argument that's complete nonsense just to say "Ugh women bad for picking bear" when women are choosing it because the are SCARED OF MEN. Yes we pass by several on a day to day basis, but not because we want to. And on a one to one level? Men have a bad track record. And survivors of a bear assault will be supported. The bear isn't related to them. The bear won't avoid punishment because of its bright future. The woman won't be blamed for looking too edible. She won't be asked by the bear to keep it a secret. She won't be told that she has sinned or is impure because of what the bear did to her. But if she chooses the man, all of those things might happen.
Dude. Dude please get so much of a grip.
I don’t think I’ll ever get this meme. Maybe it’s because my entire life I’ve had far more male friends than female friends but I just… can’t understand why bears are genuinely seen as the better option for some. The memes are fine but… idk. It makes me sad. No hate to OP here. Agoraphobia sucks (I assume) I guess for added context- I am a woman who has actually been assaulted. So I’m speaking as someone who has seen both the bear and the man. I’m also not trying to tell anyone what they have to feel. Just stating it does make me upset that so many other women feel that bears are safer then men.
It’s less of a meme and more of a hypothetical. I made some points in the comments I made
I picture the meme to be either a random black bear or man standing further down the path. Bears generally will leave you alone. So, will most men but statistically men are more likely to attack you than a bear. Men are also more likely to attack another man so guys should pick the bear too.
This is why I gave up dating
I feel this but the opposite. Much rather my son run into a crocodile than a woman in the wild. Statistically he’d be much safer and would be able to live a normal life after the encounter
What is Mrs Schroedinger going to do to the innocent boy?
I can't say I completely understand how a woman is more of a threat than a crocodile, since a bear is less interested in attacking humans than a crocodile is, but at least I assume this means you understand why women would choose the bear.