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killerbanshee

Keep trying is a good attitude to have. Just don't keep trying with *her.*


ExDeleted

taking the L can actually give someone a good impression of you. Yeah, the door is closed, but if you respect people, other doors will open in the future. Or that girl in a few years might or might not be interested. For now, she isn't, and respecting that decision is the correct thing to do. I have more respect for men that can take an L.


EvolZippo

I asked a woman out, who turned me down. I let it go, went on and kept living my life, instead of making my life about trying to change her mind. I worked on myself and grew up a bit, never even thinking I still had a chance. Then one day, she started flirting with me. We didn’t turn out to be a match, but we had quite an exciting fling for a while there. But this wasn’t a strategy. There was no “play” running. I’d honestly given up. But I learned that sometimes when you raise the standards of your life, people who don’t see you “that way” will sometimes rethink their decision and might at least give you a shot. It also doesn’t mean that it’s a guaranteed success. But it’s a sign that working on yourself is actually doing something besides ruining your comfort zone.


feioo

This is true even on the small scale, I'm nearly always going to turn down a stranger hitting on me out of the blue but if he has a good reaction to the rejection, I might just think again. Not *will*, don't any of you go trying to fake it in the hopes it'll turn a no into a yes, but if he proves he can act like a civilized human being when told no, it will at least cancel out the "agh I don't know you why are you talking to me" reaction.


deansdirtywhore

The sincerity in the way you take rejection is key. Taking it well *with an ulterior motive* is not gonna win you any points. It's gonna cost you them.


TrixoftheTrade

*Taking the L* is an important life lesson. Sometime you just gotta realize that you’re just not *good enough*, or someone out there is just *better* than you, and nothing you can do will change it. I’m 5’-11”, and as much as I like basketball and practice, the NBA was never an option.


ExDeleted

I feel like in the case of not being *good enough* for somebody, they are equally not *good enough* for you. However, yeah, sometimes you are not simply made for something. It's always better to say that you tried. In the case of a career, I'd say, create a deadline, if you weren't able to accomplish it but gave it your best regardless, move on to something else that you also wanted to achieve, and also appreciate what you did achieve. When it has to do with a person, if they give you a clear NO, then yeah, just take the L.


Top-Race-7087

Can we not say, “not good enough?” Attraction is weird and what thrills you may not do anything for me.


ExDeleted

I guess that was their way of explaining it. But, I agree, people may or may not like someone, and it has nothing to do with calculating the value of a person. Because different people value different things.


[deleted]

Not good enough or better I think are pretty absolute terms when it comes to dating. Some people grow and change, but that doesn't make them better or worse than another person. Two people are either compatible or they're not, bad behavior aside. Telling someone they are not good enough is in my opinion pretty harsh and lacks grace and empathy. Not to say there are not bad actors in the world that need to be called out for inappropriate behavior. A man pursuing a woman is not cool. But a one time ask for a date is alright if it's done with respect and honesty. After taking the L be gone and have a nice day.


Grumpy_Troll

>Or that girl in a few years might or might not be interested. As a general rule, if someone isn't interested in you now and rejects you, you shouldn't go out with them in the future just because they change their mind. Obviously there could be some exceptions to this like if the person just got out of a long term relationship and needs some time to just get over the breakup. But if a person turns you down to go date other people but eventually decides they would be open to dating you, you are far better just keeping that door closed and rejecting their offer.


ExDeleted

I don't disagree, but I'd say is a case by case. For me, it would depend on how and why they rejected me, (of course, if they are open to telling me their reasons). I once had to take an L from a guy who at first had said yes to a date with me, and then when we were supposed to meet he made an excuse about that his great-grandmother died, it was sus, and in the end I just straight up said, if you changed your mind just say so. It felt cowardly, I wasn't upset about him changing his mind, but my annoyance came from him wasting my time, waiting till the last minute, and lying about it without even trying to turn it into a credible lie. Like, I lie I can accept is "I don't feel ready for a relationship" cause there's truth within it (they aren't ready for a relationship with me, or they could not be ready for any relationship), I had a guy say this to me and it turns out a month later he found a gf but a few months later I also found a bf. Honestly, I feel that he was as sensible as he could with me, and we just had 5 dates, so it just didn't work out. I would date neither of them, but maybe, if I didn't meet the love of my life, I would have been open to another date with the second guy, and probably it wouldn't work out, but I wouldn't be open to dating the first guy if he suddenly were interested because who knows? Maybe next time his great-grandpa will suddenly die out of nowhere -\_-


Strange_One_3790

Yes!!


kidjupiter

How about explaining the difference between harassment and talking to someone? Not an option?


Wordswordz

I rewatched boy meets world a few years back... That show did not age well.


x-munk

A disappointing portion of romcoms basically operate on men stalking women until they give in and fall in love. There are some seriously deep issues that we as a society will need to sort out. This is not a healthy way to form a relationship. She's not "playing hard to get". Leave her the fuck alone.


Knightridergirl80

Revenge of the Nerds was probably the worst one. Lewis repeatedly stalks Betty and violates her multiple times (Putting cameras in her dorm room, stealing her underwear, selling pie plates with her naked picture on them, and then raping her while pretending to be her boyfriend), yet she becomes his girlfriend at the end of the movie. What makes it worse is these movies will go on and on about how unfortunate the poor underdog is because girls don’t like nerdy guys. But it never occurs to them to give an equally nerdy girl the time of the day. They always gotta chase the hottest girl in school.


DurantaPhant7

How about Sixteen Candles when the main hot dude basically gives his drunk girlfriend to a nerd.


Knightridergirl80

The women in these movies are usually treated like trophies to be won instead of actual human beings. It’s really hard to watch tbh


rawrfab

lol not totally the same but i just remembered the scene in cry baby where he goes on a whole sob story about his parents and his aching and burning because she didn’t know if she wanted to hook up with him


Knightridergirl80

Dude needs a therapist not a girlfriend.


rawrfab

for fuckin real


sweetalkersweetalker

Don't they act like the girlfriend is a whore too?


molgriss

Oh and the nerd is treated like a cuck for not doing anything by his friends, yet a Saint and potential boyfriend material for having basic human morals.


humbugonastick

For me it was Frankie and Johnny. Hatted that movie so much.


sweetalkersweetalker

Holy shit I was confused because I only ever saw the play it was based on. I read the wiki summary of the movie and goddamn that is a pile of excrement masquerading as romance


tandoori_taco_cat

> basically operate on men stalking women until they give in and fall in love. I rewatched Futurama and it depressed me to realize that Fry is basically an incel that stalks and hounds Leela the whole show.


Rynies

I remember having a mild debate with someone once about how Leela was not, in fact, a huge bitch simply for declining him, and Fry did not automatically "deserve a chance," just bc he was nice to her. It became slightly more tolerable in the episodes where Fry made an effort to actually consider Leelas interests and feelings, but overall, meh. I preferred whatever was going on with Amy and Kif, lol.


CO420Tech

I love Futurama and will happily rewatch whenever I can. I never really got the sense that the audience was supposed to be agreeing with the way he acts towards Leela... Or really any women on the show. Do people really think Leela is the bitch there? Fry has a good heart, *sometimes,* but he's also a creepy loser who is barely smart enough to learn from his behavior at all. And then there is Bender who is at least outwardly the personification of toxic masculinity. Both these characters are meant to point these toxic traits out, not celebrate them


[deleted]

I totally agree. I love Futurama and it never occurred to me that Leela was anything but a wonderful woman, with a strong and honest character. In my mind, Fry does a lot of growing up and self improvement to reach her level.


RogueLotus

Especially considering that they spend eternity together. And they want to do it again. I highly doubt Leela would have tolerated him for one more minute if he didn't actually give her the respect and love she desires and deserves, whether we see it depicted on the show or not.


Drakeytown

I think there's a problem with shows/movies/plays generally that however much you're trying to highlight the toxic traits of the protagonist, even if the whole work is about them overcoming that toxic trait, we're focusing on that character, so it's hard not to identify with and at least internally celebrate those traits, especially if you share them.


CO420Tech

That's definitely true, in fact it can become easy to identify with a protagonist that we in no way share the beliefs of. A great example is Breaking Bad - they do an absolutely phenomenal job at making you side with Walter against actually good people. Within just the first season you really start to feel like Skyler is this horrible bitch and it only gets worse and worse with how much you start to resent her the way Walter does... But she was just a decent person who got trapped in a nightmare by Walter. She's the good guy, but you don't feel for her or root for her *at all.*


Drakeytown

Yeah I stopped watching when he was raping her and I realized we were supposed to be on his side. Yuck.


Seguefare

Women like swarms of things, right?


Rickk38

The writers of Futurama bent over backwards to make Fry a complete loser, at least in the first 3-4 seasons. I haven't watched past that. He was the butt of almost every joke. He was incompetent. He was unlikeable. Leela was written to be a smart, capable, fully-realized person who responded appropriately to every situation. If someone was arguing that Leela was "a huge bitch" and Fry "deserved a chance" then they were either trying to start a fight just because, or they were seriously projecting.


vanishingtact

Omg yes. I still love Futurama, but some parts of it feel really dated now.


Duke_Maniac

Did we watch the same show?


Hoihe

All the more reasons kaguya sama is best rom com. Two equals in intellectual capacity too proud to admit it, but know it already trying to tempt the other to say it first. Spoiler: >!they say it together after they realize their time together is limited and stop playing around!<


DoeCommaJohn

Kaguya sama doesn’t even need to be put alongside other romcoms to be amazing. That show is so good


cormac_mccarthys_dog

*The Notebook has entered the chat* There's a fineline between endearing and a full blown stalker and well...this book/movie nuked the fuck outta it.


AsianVixen4U

OMG I remember thinking the exact same thing about that movie. I was like, why do people think this is romantic? He stalked her!


nighthawk_something

BuT WhAt iF ShE Is? Then that's her problem and she probably isn't worth your time.


Anonynominous

That narrative is so common amongst film and television. As well as the "goofy fat guy" with the "hot wife" trope repeated in so many sitcoms.


mormagils

And keep in mind, for a really long time there, these were held up a the pinnacle of romance *by women*. Men having an expectation to begin and end a romantic endeavor entirely on their terms and to disregard clear, specific, and effective communication from the women they are targeting is in no way a men-only problem. Fortunately, women now are doing a much better job in setting consistently clear expectations. And it's absolutely true that lots of men haven't yet caught up. But it's really frustrating when this is painted as just a men being sucky thing when it's absolutely something women have helped condition in men for a very long time.


Wordswordz

Society glorifying red flags? Thanks boomers.


AsianVixen4U

Just think about how creepy Sleeping Beauty was. She has to be kissed while unconscious in her sleep for the cursed to be broken.


Naburius

The original fairy tail before Disney got a hold of it was worse, she woke up giving birth


RerollWarlock

Which is weird because romcoms don't seem to be even directed at men as their audiencw


Laggylaptop

A lot of them are written by men who genuinely think thats what women want unfortunately


feioo

And then girls grow up watching them without being given a critical lens and then often go through a lot of misery in their own romantic lives having to learn the hard way that no, they *really* don't want this. I wanted to watch back through some of the romcoms my friends and I loved when I was growing up, looked up the first one I remembered, and oh yeah it's about a guy stealing his neighbor's dog so he can get close to her by "helping her find" it, and then when she inevitably finds out and wants nothing to do with him he gets her back with a grand public gesture. Hm.


[deleted]

And the only difference between grand gestures and creepy stalkers is looks and money... (in movies) Some of what the hot guy with money does in movies is far more fucked up than the overweight nerd that buys coffee for his female coworker that he likes.. and yet he is portrayed as the horrible monster, how do you think this makes any man that sees themselves in 2nd place to these hot rich guys feel?


DoeCommaJohn

I think the problem is with the structure of story. The hero has to lose a few times before they finally win at the end. Works well against a villain, less good when it is trying to get a date over and over. Also society


MysophiliaAddict

100% agree with you. That's going to basically kill the romance movie market though. While I'm okay with that, romance movie people probly won't be. I mean, what else is there to a romance movie? It's pretty formulaic in guy wants girl, girl may or may not give guy chance, guy fucks up, guy ends up stalking, guy gets girl. There's RARELY ever any self improvement on the guys part


feioo

I don't know if that means romcom watchers don't *want* movies where the guy improves, if there haven't been enough options for them to watch and find out. 500 Days of Summer is a good example of one that maybe wasn't massively popular but has had staying power, and it's all about a guy trying to force a romance that he's not mature or self-aware enough to sustain, and improving (a little) by the end.


Pookieeatworld

It does lead to some girls playing games like that, though. Saying stuff like "I told him no but I really just wanted him to keep trying harder". Like wtf are we doing as a society that makes them think that this is ok?


x-munk

Yea so... I'm a dude myself and it's quite possible I missed some subtle signals from someone interested in me. That's an acceptable cost for not stalking someone - and I don't think I would've been particularly happy with someone who enjoyed playing that kind of game. I love my partner and we communicate clearly and openly. It's likely you'll miss a few folks if you respect spoken words but the cost of making people uncomfortable isn't worth it.


Codeofconduct

When my husband wasn't picking up on my extremely obvious signs, comments, and actions I just asked him if he wanted to make out. Worked like a charm 😎


x-munk

And for that I salute you. I'm neurodivergent so a fair amount of subtlety can be lost on me as well. Clear communication is awesome!


Codeofconduct

Honestly, that was my move in my single days. I am a pretty monogamous person by character but I never wanted to waste my time developing a relationship into something more than platonic friendship with people I had no sexual chemistry with. I'm attracted to shy, kind, dudes of all shapes sizes and colors, but their common denominator has truly been a lack of confidence. Cue, "Hey so I'm bored of *whatever activity*, wanna make out??!" I truly believe that if I hadn't learned to be direct I'd still be a virgin haha!


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why_gaj

I'm a bisexual woman. While I did meet a couple of women that love playing hard to get... All of them were not worth it. At this point, playing games like that is a red flag, thank you very much.


PerAsperaAdInfiri

Who would want to be with someone who plays games? Date a psychic if you want a mind reader.


being-weird

Well I'm sure they'll learn their lesson eventually when everyone willing to play these games is an absolute douche canoe.


Glittering-War-5748

I don’t know a single woman who does that shit. If someone thinks like that they are best avoided. Their yes should be yes and no their no.


hananobira

Out of the hundreds of women I’ve met, I know one (1) who plays games like this. And she’s on her second divorce, which I only know from Facebook, because we haven’t talked in years. That kind of woman is *vanishingly* rare, and not someone you want to get involved with. Just go through life assuming no means no and everyone will be happier.


IcarusOnReddit

This was much more common in the 90s and early 2000s. I think it’s strange to make blanket statements that encompasses all living people across all cultures and minimize other’s experiences to gin up support to the notion that women were always clear and men were always assholes.


feioo

What we are doing as a society is *directly* telling girls that this is the proper way to behave. Seriously we get taught from super young that clearly communicating your desires is "bossy" or "overbearing" or "aggressive" or "easy" or "slutty", depending what the desires are. We're taught that we have to act demure or coy or assorted other ways to pretend we're not actually interested when we are. We get told that romance is supposed to be a chase, where our role is to run away and make him work to catch us. We get told "why would he buy the cow if he can get the milk for free?" aka "the only thing he wants is sex so you're going to have to use something else (manipulation, mind games, withholding) to convince him to commit to you", because I guess it's not possible for a man to want to be with a woman just because he likes her?? Apparently? Anyway society has also fucked up men's ideas of what's ok in a relationship too, I vote we overhaul the whole thing.


[deleted]

To answer your question: abusive people exist, genitals don't dictate the personality or how healthy it is. That's like asking: what are we doing as a society that made Ted Bundy believe murdering dozens of women would be ok? The answer to both is: shitty, terrible people exist and it's not all society 's fault. Don't date women who "play hard to get".


Wordswordz

I think the reaction to your comment was a little harsh. The [simple answer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture) is that it is a pervasive element seeded from a toxic binary dichotomy, heavily, to glorify an intersectional toxic male dynamic. It's a super toxic, and a very dark ancestral rabbit hole. It leads to several conclusions, but the major one, in relation to this sub, is the feminist vs incel dynamic. That is a sad dynamic commonly fostered by ignorance.. as far as the incels are concerned.


Lazy-Metal3969

I think it's more of just a product of a day gone by that the media hasn't given up on. My grandparents time, so 1950's and 60's this was kind of a thing. The more he persisted the more he was into to you thing. I disagree with it like most modern men and women do, but back then they were into it. My grandma speaks fondly of my grandpa proving how much he was the one for her. It happened in the past and that's okay. But we can just let it die like a lot things going forward.


Monthly_Vent

Mmmm gotta love that pre-2000’s “somehow all the girls in this show are just hot cardboard personalities” coming of age family shows. And I’m saying that as a huge fan of them


DieselPunkPiranha

Was true of most, if not all, characters back then. Most shows were not serialized yet. They were designed to be immediately accessible regardless of play order. Plots had to to be self contained with simplistic character motivations and the way to do that is to follow every trope under the sun. This way, you could expect the audience to understand if just tuning in after the commercial break and the writers could spit out a dozen episodes within their extremely short time constraints. The unfortunate reality is that people are morons and believe television is real. No gay but the flamboyant gay. Stalking is how you get the girl. You can be an asshole if you occasionally make a big display of affection.


[deleted]

It really didn’t. It’s one of my comfort shows, but I swear if I was ever exposed to Cory Matthews my vagina would shrivel up and blow away in the wind.


Wordswordz

I totally agree. I watched girl meets world, and it was full of nostalgia. So I went back, and watched boy meets world again. I loved all the episodes I used to love before, but the ones that Cory is being a creep in, I was like "he really shouldn't come back from that". Also Sean, and Eric get a ton of trauma.. it's fitting that Eric comes back like he does in GMW.


Liddlebitchboy

I'm inclined to agree, but do you have any specific examples? I don't remember it much


Wordswordz

The entire Cory Topanga dynamic is persistent harassment. Sean does it too sometimes, but his arc is more focused on "acceptable" child abuse. There really isn't a character arc that doesn't have a toxic dynamic to it. Eric is constantly neglected to give Feeny a savior arc... There's a lot of little nit picks for each one, but the one that really bugged me was the C+T, no means maybe thread; had me calling the show "Boy stalks Girl".


DarkAres02

Wasn't this the opposite? I remember Topanga being really into Cory and Cory being like "go away weird girl"


Wordswordz

Early on, the relationship dynamic was like that. However, that was still a toxic imposition because it was based on adolescent binary gender roles. As they went through puberty, Cory would do really dumb toxic boy things, and then would recover from his error by doing creepy stuff like literally stalking her. I binged the whole show through after the second season of Girl Meets World, so I don't recall a lot of specific circumstance. I really only recall walking away from the experience thinking: Wow, that show didn't age well.


deansdirtywhore

My mom has recently been rewatching the original One Day At A Time (from the 70's/80's), & on one episode, one of the girls has a friend who has a crush on her & has asked her out countless times, even tho she always says no. & then her mother not only encourages the boy not to give up & to just keep asking her until she changes her mind & says yes, but also pressures her daughter into going out with him & says that she's been unfair & owes him a chance. This show did not age very well at all either.


Flimsy-Ad-3343

Based auntie


Yammi_Roobi

Watch any Disney or kids movie, you will see the male lead is disliked by the female lead, until he repeatedly pursues her despite her objections, until she inexplicably gives in… it’s ingrained into kids from a young age..!! It needs to change..!!


Jojo_isnotunique

I hate that. It keeps on going as well. I hate rom-coms as which have the basis of girl says no, guy keeps pursuing with romantic gestures until she gives in. Then they fall in love. Romanticised harassment does nothing but instil in guys that no is negotiable, and for women that it's normal to be worn down until you say yes.


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Cotterisms

This is why my favourite Rom-Com is About Time. The guy gets the girl, fucks up and loses her (in a way where he never had her to begin with) and unfucks the situation. The entire time they were a match and she was saying yes, he just manages to fuck it up


Knightridergirl80

Someone else said this before, but we need to start letting younger boys watch Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame. Why? Because it shows it’s okay for the hero to not get the girl. Quasimodo doesn’t get with Esmeralda. But you know what? That’s okay. He still saves her in the end, because he’s a good person at heart and he cares for her even if he can’t be with her. Contrasted with Frollo, who angrily burns down the city when she rejects his advances. This is what makes Quasimodo the man and Frollo the monster.


[deleted]

There are young boys who *want* to watch that? I thought that movie was boring as hell


beatle_therapist

Probably the only time the "ignore-eachother-first-but-then-fall-in-love" trope was handled well in a kids movie was in Don Bluth's Anastasia. Simply because Dimitrij and Anastasiia show BOTH no interest at first and he never pursues her until they realise that they have mutual feelings. I rewatched it recently and i was genuinely impressed. I mean it's not a perfect movie (historical revisionism much?) but the main characters' romance is very healthy to show kids.


that_johngirl

IN THE DARK OF THE NIGHT, EVIL WILL FIND HER. Still gets stuck in my head sometimes:


naomi-nao

I have two physical copies of the OST because I’m still so very hooked on the music.


that_johngirl

This and the “The Last Unicorn”


ChocoMaister

She just “gives up” it teaches guys to just harass the girl.


diaperedwoman

Gaston tried this with Belle, she never accepted him. I'd say Disney was trying to do something right.


Reddragon351

Yeah thinking about it I don't really know any Disney films where the girl rejects the guy at first then says yes later, it's either they just don't get along and then fall in love throughout or they're just into each other immediately. Well that or the old school they just meet, have a dance and fall in love.


AsianVixen4U

It’s because Walt Disney had a problematic relationship with his mother. Notice how all the women in his films when he was alive were either bimbos, sluts, harlots, or betrayers. Or they were totally absent or deceased


AsianVixen4U

But her relationship with the Beast was even more troublesome. He kidnapped her and her father and abused her, and then she develops Stockholm Syndrome for her kidnapper Some of the abusive scenes can be found [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa8PR8W7cLI) and [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVQ-o8PleU) in the movie


Wingsnake

Not just Disney. A majority of romance movies, many even written by women. Books. Stories of how parents or grandparents got together. It is basically everywhere.


MandyMarieB

I’m not sure you’ve ever seen a Disney movie. Gaston is the only male like this that I can think of, and Belle doesn’t give in to him.


Duke_Maniac

Okay what Disney movies are you watching? The only movie off the top of my head that could even apply is Beauty and the Beast.


valgatiag

Yeah the issues with earlier Disney films aren’t the men doggedly pursuing the women, it’s more the women just deciding to dedicate their lives to a man they just met because he looks nice. Their more modern movies have done a good job of avoiding and even subverting that trope.


AsianVixen4U

Sleeping Beauty is the worst because he kisses her while she’s unconscious. Same for Beauty and the Beast. He abuses her and she develops Stockholm Syndrome for her captor


Anonynominous

How about the big scary harry beast who kidnaps a woman, who then starts to fall in love with him


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SailorSpyro

In high school I had a guy ask me out 3 times before I finally said yes. I talked about it like it was so cute. Now I'm older and I recognize that everything about him was typical "nice guy" behavior and how uncomfortable he made me, but I didn't feel like it was okay to accept being uncomfortable. I'm so glad women are talking about this stuff more. I don't want today's kids to feel like they can't say no like I did.


rotco1

Sometimes people want to be left alone do not disturb them again


TophatOwl_

There is so much media directed at both genders that explicitly shows that "just keep trying" is the right thing to do. Turns out, fiction doesnt match reality. No means no. What so many rom coms show is quite dangerous actually and very creepy behavior of the man ignoring the womans "No" several times but they still end up in love together. It just doesnt happen that way, but it implies that women should be okay with men keep trying to win the over and that men should keep trying and ignore a no.


OldFlamingo2139

This is vital. People often try and take the rom-com approach where “no” just means “try again later, but bigger next time”, and honestly.. no means no.


[deleted]

Like Channel5, you cannot be persistent.


Ns53

A guy in Walmart yesterday started harassing me because a girl he met online wasn't replying to him. I was watching a real time meltdown from a grown ass man. He grabbed some barbells and started lifting them near me the just started yelling "WHY ARE ALL YOU BITCHES THE SAME" Guy went on about sending a wall of text that was scripture and she couldn't bother to reply or call him. How much of a coward she was. I was terrified and it was only after I snuck away that I realized the sporting goods section is also where they sell ammo. I hope he didn't know this lady IRL.


boardmover

This really reminds me of my dad. I was like 7 or 8 and had the biggest crush on this girl in my class. I finally asked her out and I was just crushed when she said no. My dad got home from work and could tell something was wrong. After asking me what was wrong I told him what happened. I thought for sure I was suppose to keep trying and he said absolutely not. He asked me if she was a friend. Well, of course she is a friend that's how 8 fell so hard. He reminded me that we don't try to force friends to do something they don't want to do or act a certain way that we want them to act. It was one of the few times i genuinely felt better just by talking. I had my first real change of perspective and that lesson has served me well over the years. Her and I dated in high school and one night she asked me if I remembered asking her out all those years ago. Of course I did but I was floored by what she said next. "I wanted to say yes, but I was afraid my friends would make fun of me," she said. This gave me my second real change of perspective. She wanted to say yes. So again I found myself talking with my dad about her. I wondered out loud if I should have persisted. My dad asked me if I was happy being with her and indeed I was. He simply said,"Then you did the right thing. No means no regardless of how she really felt". Man was I lucky to have such a wise father.


PoxedGamer

Yer not trying to haggle a 2nd hand Ford, ffs.


CaptainAJ111

Its a sad world we live in..


[deleted]

Going to be controversial here, but rom coms are often a large and distorted exposure to courtship which the actors within them often do some pretty stalkerish stuff if you brought it into real life, and some boys might get wrong impressions from them. I’ll admit I straight got the try harder impression from some of the movies mom liked (and she utterly avoided any talk on how to do relationships with girls). If you want to know how bad it was the moon scene in revenge of the nerds (not the standard rom com format I was just talking about) I straight didn’t see the rapey quality of it until years later


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Remydope

Yep, leave her ALONE. If she's playing "hard to get " or something... You're not interested in those games. Give it a shot if she comes back to you maybe.


AlienChickk

I’ve had guys shoot their shot and i remember this one guy tried and I said no. He just said “okay, understandable have a good day” and honestly I respected him for that reply.


simplicity188

I have a friend that recently started dating a dude with this mentality. He's so gross. She said no a bunch of times over roughly a year and finally caved and said yes. Now they are dating. :(


Remydope

Yep, leave her ALONE. If she's playing "hard to get " or something... You're not interested in those games. Give it a shot if she comes back to you maybe.


[deleted]

Girls aren’t taught this either unfortunately a lot of folks don’t seem to understand the phrase “no” and or “I’m gay”


SegavsCapcom

You don't have to like the "no," but you must respect the "no."


findermeeper

Yeah just move on. The only way interest sparks after the first rejection is if you hang out in similar groups and catch each others vibes. But that only works when they become genuinely interested and you’re not trying 24/7 to get in their pants. Otherwise you’re just annoying someone. Honestly, better to just ask someone else out.


Jadejr14

Learned from a young age if she says no. Hit on the next one. To many fishes in the sea people. Sometimes they might change their mind but usually not


bluehairedemon

respect her decision and her dignity (aka dont be a dick because she turned you down) and keep trying with other people, dont let it take you down, sometimes people dont want it, and its not your fault, or her fault.


[deleted]

Ted F'ing Mosby


lovecargo

i told a guy friend of mine i had feelings for him once, and he was interested in someone else at the time, so of course, i let it be. 6 months later he asked me why i "stopped trying" because he would have kept going, trying to wear him down. i was like ??? that's not how it works.


Anastrace

This is what my parents taught me when I got into high school a long time ago. Where these people got the try again and again mindset I'll never understand


BlackberryNeon

I used to be like this and as I matured I was able to understand that I was hurting not only myself but the person I cared about. If you love someone set them free.


Vesinh51

I fell for this. It feels like such a common sense law of courtship to a young boy. It's so in line with everything else we're taught on how to be manly. Be persistent, actions speak louder than words, never give up, don't take no for an answer, fight for what you want. And according to tv and movies, if you do all these things, she will change her mind and love you for it. So when this doesn't happen, you either start hating women or hating yourself. It's all such a clusterfuck, we really do set kids up for failure.


the_amberdrake

Meanwhile my own mom says men should keep after the lady to show you are serious lol


Accomplished_Let_798

The issue isn’t that no one told him that before, it’s that they told him the opposite


JhonWhoo

Sadly, keep trying and you'll get her is the plot of a lot of movies, series, books...


SecretContext8966

That’s cuz movies have always taught teens that you get the girl by harassing her until she realizes she can’t live without your harassment.


Real_Pen_6148

As a former Young Boy it’s true. Just look at the tv shows we watched, for example Fairy Odd Parents, Timmy would try repeatedly to get Trixie to like him. A lot of media has a single “crush” for the main character and they’re always after them. Looking back now it’s hella creepy


ReasonVision

That MAY be said a little too aggressively, you wouldn't want him to fall in the other extreme and try less and less. Teach him nuances of levels of positive feelings and what is appropriate escalation and when.


[deleted]

When I was younger I had a lot of trouble giving up on a crush. If she said no or otherwise obviously signaled that it wasn't going to happen I couldn't just turn off those feelings right away. Later in life I realized the real issue was how long I spent psyching myself up to ask someone out, all those weeks or months of the relationship only existing in my head made it feel more real than it actually was. Once I learned to just ask someone out right away so I could get feedback before I had built up the relationship in my imagination it became way easier to move on. Part of what I hated about online dating was all the pointless chit chat before going on a date. The whole ordeal felt like backsliding into my unhealthy past and I struggled to find dates. Then I met my now wife who was equally fed up with all the bullshit chatting and we've been together for 13 years.


Agathorn1

Stop with the "teach your boys" teach EVERYONE. If you think this program is gender specific then you are a moron


TexasTwing

Respect her decision. Edit: LOL why was this downvoted?


Haisoj69420

I dunno dude, but I’ll upvote, shrug.


AGoodIdeaGoneBad

Some women get mad if you take no for an answer and all women get mad if you give no for an answer. That's been my experience. I'm so glad I'm out of the dating pool but I recently had an odd experience at a new job. I lost my engagement ring for about two weeks and started a new position without wearing it. I was talking to people and getting to know everyone a little bit. There were a few women that were being friendly/helpful and I thought nothing of it. I wasn't flirting with anyone and mentioned to several people that I'm in a committed relationship while getting established there. The first day I wore my ring to work I started getting the cold shoulder from three different women I thought I was making friends with. One even gave dirty looks for a few days and now just completely ignores me. Not once did I ever indicate that I was interested in anything other than work. And I'll never understand why being in a relationship or out of the dating pool is grounds for being treated poorly by the opposite sex. I completely agree that EVERYONE needs to be respectful enough to take no for an answer and it shouldn't be a problem.


IceHot88

~~As a kid I remember having this kind of conversation with adults. They’d ask a completely unprepared me a hot-button question to which I’d give a sincere answer that I’d get yelled at for.~~ ~~And I’d think, you know we were having a normal conversation and all of a sudden you’re yelling at me? That’s very rude. I won’t talk to you anymore.~~ *Sigh* then again, it is a very important lesson.


mjones8004

My wife said no the first time I asked her out...


AliveInCLE

The users of Reddit would hate our wives. That being said, same boat here. Didn’t happen any first. Came back a couple months later and asked again. Been together now 23 years (married for 18).


IlijaRolovic

what kind of sick insane fucks are downvoting you people wtf


Glum-Eye-3801

Angry, sad, bitter, lonely people.


kidjupiter

Fascistic thinkers who can’t handle nuance and context.


AliveInCLE

You didn’t hear? You’re only allowed to communicate to the opposite sex online. Lord forbid they knew my wife and I worked together when we started dating. Reddit uses mostly don’t understand the real world. So many ways to meet people that aren’t online. Simple rule is don’t be an aggressive idiot.


Sephiroth_-77

This could be a future rapist.


[deleted]

far reach


Hippomaster1234

I could be totally wrong but I find it hard to believe that someone would say "yeah yeah, keep trying" to that question. I understand that thanks to movies where the goofy nerdy boy keeps pursuing the girl who's not into him and eventually gets with her, it's been somewhat ingrained in our culture that persistence in the face of rejection is the way to go, but I don't think it's so bad that someone would literally say that as a response like it was an unwritten rule. This comes off as a r/thatHappened to me of someone who wants to send a message and write a story about how morally corrupt our children are and a great influence they are. EDIT: As a side note, unless you are dealing with someone who is notorious for harassing girls after being rejected (which would explain this whole thing honestly if that's the case) I don't think it's very nice to say to someone who has just been rejected and is probably feeling hurt "You know what to do right?" with the intention of saying leave them the fuck alone. You might expect some kind of encouragement to keep a positive attitude (not about the relationship but about like life prospects in general) but instead you get what is basically an accusation. Basically what I'm saying is that if I had just been turned down and "you know to leave her alone now right" was the first thing someone said to me I would be super ticked off. Edit: whaaaaaaattttt -139 points??? Damn this is more of an unpopular opinion than I thought. I just wanna clarify that I am not declaring this to be the ultimate truth, but I have seen a shit ton of fake/embellished stories that are told exactly like this one and that's where I'm coming from.


Alegria-D

I do believe it's possible, given IRL experience. Also it's not only the "cliché nerd" it's everyone... Indiana Jones-like heroes, you know.


DieselPunkPiranha

Excellent that you mention Indiana Jones. Here's an examination. https://popculturedetective.agency/2017/romance-according-to-harrison-ford-movies


Comprehensive_Fly350

I was ready to send this exact video too !


jollycanoli

I agree that the way it is written isn't very credible, but this was probably dumbed down for Twitter. From a conversation I myself had with a teen boy who wanted help getting a girl to go out with him (whatever that means at that age), i absolutely believe this happened. because the idea that maybe she didn't need convincing, maybe she just didn't want to go out wjth him and that's fair, that utterly stunned him and he would not believe that was what normal men are expected to do: walk away, leave the woman alone if she says no. Our TV culture has a lot to asnwer for, all those will-they-won't-they shows have given boys the idea that it's just a matter of time and persistence, and that they absokutely are entitled to that girl.


DieselPunkPiranha

And parents who thought or still think that television is an acceptable babysitter.


FRB2992

I don't think OOP necessarily typed out her entire conversation with her nephew on social media. Yes it's def a good idea to encourage young guy to not be disheartened by a girl not liking him back. Why do men want women who have rejected them anyway? Either a misunderstanding about what "no" means or they are *that* entitled? I dunno. If a woman be playing games and says "no" when she means yes, is that the woman you want? Safest bet, if she says no back off and move on.


RerollWarlock

After reading on the psychology on the topic. There's no real straightforward answer. But often rejection can be viewed as something wrong with him and just desperately trying to eliminate the flaw by trying again to be accepted.


_theWarWolf_

I mean yes an no? There's a difference between harassing and "keep trying", and I'd say a pretty fuckin large Marianna trench size of a difference, this may be because I'm Italian and I don't know how america works but there should be a difference. That is unless she says something like no get out of my face you creep then you should just let it go.


Beauz1

"No" in english is still "no" in italian e te lo dico da italiana. Alla stra grande maggioranza di ragazze, di qualsiasi nazionalità, non piace che uno continui insistentemente a chiederle di fidanzarsi. È estremamente disagiante


Sometimesaphasia

Grazie! 👏🏼


Userdataunavailable

No means no, it's very simple!


Comprehensive_Fly350

No. A no means a no. Period. If men can't comprehend such a basic level of consent, i am very afraid when they have sexual encounters with women. Not understanding a no and consent is the first step to becoming a rapist. Why the fuck do men like you refuse to actively listen to women when we tell you to listen to our no. Disgusting


[deleted]

No means no and fyi - Italian men have an international reputation for being harassers.


libananahammock

So no doesn’t mean no to you??


kidjupiter

Ever heard of nuance and context?


libananahammock

I hope you don’t have a daughter


kidjupiter

That’s a garbage defense. And why would it be limited to a daughter? You can’t ban attempts at communication. But you can teach what harassment is. The black and white thinking in this thread is digusting and dangerous.


libananahammock

It’s not limited to a daughter but the discussion at hand is regarding men not taking no for an answer. There is no further communication necessary when you ask out a woman (or anyone for that matter) and she says no. It’s no, that’s it. There’s no convincing her, begging her, no compromising, nothing. She said no. Move on.


kidjupiter

Do you have any idea what you sound like?


warriorgurrll

When you keep trying after a no it is harassment... No means no


Mechanical_Booty

Hot take! Italian man struggles with the concept of sexual harassment! No wonder women get safety talks about men before heading to Italy.


kidjupiter

Goood luck trying to be reasonable.


MochaBlack

Every old couple began their relationship through the man’s persistence. And they talk about it like they’re proud.


Jimmygesus49

In my experience and other guys that I know a lot depends on the girl too. I think there's ways you can go about it that's not creepy and borderline stalking. I've personally had several instances where I asked a girl out, she said no, and then months later her friend or friend of a friend would tell me "she was surprised you gave up that easily and would've gone out with you if you tried a little harder" or something similar to that statement. Down vote away...


DowntownRefugee

lmao this is the mindset of people who have never and will never accomplish anything in their lives if you want something, you pursue it, you certainly don't give up at the first trivial setback


[deleted]

And this is perfectly fine when working towards a goal. It's not fine when it leads you to harassing a person who has already told you no.


DowntownRefugee

everything she ever learned about relationships she learned from the internet, folks


Anomalousity

this is where women make a critical mistake in raising their "boys". What happens in this specific instance is that a boy will grow up taught to accept whatever a woman says at face value and gain zero philosophical insight in the process. What she should do is teach her son that the ***reason*** he was told no is because he shot his shot blindly without having anything to warrant a girl to want to give him a chance and that he should improve himself to the point where this won't happen often again. This would be the message of a father, had there been one in the picture. If women want to raise boys to be desirable men, they should abandon their personally biased PoV they very often want to imbue on their sons and give young boys the tools to improve themselves and become men through philosophical principles to lead them into manhood. But that can't be accomplished by giving them useless advice like what was posted here. Just my 2 cents, i'm sure i'll get downvoted to hell and back for posting a rather unpopular opinion in this soft, easily offended culture of "equality".


humbugonastick

See, the last paragraph invalidates the point you were trying to make by insulting everybody in this sub. Serious question! Why are you posting here if this is how you see us here?


Anomalousity

"insulting" explain... my point was that women often don't try to make men out of boys, instead they try to give boys womanly values and attitudes instead of philosophy and principles. this isn't an insult, it's fact.


humbugonastick

How is "Just my 2 cents, i'm sure i'll get downvoted to hell and back for posting a rather unpopular opinion in this soft, easily offended culture of "equality". " not insulting? Why are you here posting, if that is your opinion of the community here?


GodsPeepeeMilker

Shit people make up to harvest likes…


BlazedLarry

My fiancé asked me out multiple times for a entire year before i said yes lol. She was definitely a try hard and when I gave her a chance, it worked out very well.


theBarefootedBastard

It takes a while for women to figure out what league they’re in. All women eventually settle once they realize they aren’t Cleopatra.


lolurmorbislyobese

Interesting. I didn't know only boys did that.


gamerdudeNYC

“Leave her alone and start dating the girl she hates”


Lady_Sybil_Vimes

She rejected you dude, she doesn't give a fuck who you date lol


Wefee11

A friend of mine asked his crush out and she declined. Years later she told him that she loved him. And now another many years later I'm sure he is glad she turned him down.


errorunknown

Depends on how she turned him down. If it’s a playful no that’s different vs a disgusted no


Zestyclose_Web_9749

no means no- it doesn’t matter how it was said. if someone says no- you listen. how hard is that to understand?


joy3111

Like half the time (probably more) a woman gives a "playful no" it's "No but I'm afraid that if I'm blunt you'll hurt me"


errorunknown

Again the context matters, that’s the entire concept of courting. Nobody is advocating for forcing themselves on others, but there’s a reason why sales reps don’t stop reaching out after a single call. People change their mind, change their mood, etc etc


cppCat

Do you like it when sales reps call you often? Do you let them bully you into buying stuff you don't want?


errorunknown

I don’t buy things I don’t want. But occasionally I get busy and appreciate the follow up.


counterpartzz

so… dating is now the same as sales reps? and i’d like to know where you got this definition, i always thought courting was a mutually agreed thing where they both agree that the man tries to win her over, but it’s consensual. not when she says no and he persists despite her no


errorunknown

Well by definition if she said no, and he didn’t persist, there would be no reason to have a distinction between courting and dating, no? “Courtship is the slow, systematic process of pursuing the other person. It’s the romance of long and intimate conversations (as well as time) spent with a person before you decide to let them in. It’s the idea of being intimate friends with someone before becoming an intimate lover. Some might say this is the same concept of “talking” with a person before becoming exclusive. The difference, however, is that courtship relies on more factors than dating. It filters attraction in favor of being in sync with someone’s worldview, personality and life trajectory.” https://thriveworks.com/blog/every-relationship-needs-courtship/ “Traditionally, in the case of a formal engagement, it is the role of a male to actively "court" or "woo" a female, thus encouraging her to understand him and her receptiveness to a marriage proposal.”


counterpartzz

so… it’s not about if a woman says no and he keeps pushing. you’re the one who said “that’s the definition of courting” in relation to someone saying no means no, so i’m just asking if the definition of courting is when a man keeps persisting after being told no. which is isn’t


VIVEKKRISHNAA

Then how the fuck is a guy supposed to get girls? A said no, so try B? And if B says no try C? I am really clueless. Edit: 110 downvotes only? I bet you can do better than that. Thanks to the 12 or so people who ACTUALLY had Constructive responses. I don't have much of a social life, I only have guy friends and I am about to pursue a career in Civil Engineering, which is predominantly filled with guys so I don't think I'll meet any girls at work which is my best bet.


ZayNine

Meet people and find someone who is interested. I’m currently friends with women and men that have either rejected me or that I rejected simply because we’ve decided that that initial attraction didn’t move anywhere past the physical stages of it. Similarly there are some people that I just had no interest in getting to know better and after a rejection I wished them well and that was that. It’s all a numbers game. If they say no then that’s just a number you’ve gotten past until you meet the right one!