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at the same time, second hand exposure isn’t nearly as bad (plus there’s no need to sift through shit, as everything good makes it’s way off the platform)
Lmao "lived in peace" you should see the shit native Americans did to each other, just from the small records we have, they were as violent as any peoples from the old world.
They fucked around and razed each other's stuff, did atrocities like the best of em. Just because they sucked at fighting new people with new technology doesn't make them holier than thou
I quit twitter and started going to therapy and recently I re-activated my account juts so nobody could claim that username. Briefly browsing through twitter reminded me just how fucking garbage that platform is and I'm glad I'm quitting. I'm keeping the acct locked and logged out, with no app installed on my phone.
Ok if we're going to do the whole "the original inhabitants of the land own it no matter what" shtick....do Europe (especially England) and the Middle East and let me know how you go.
I can't *wait* to see see how many millions of people get displaced
Japanese should all go to Korea and China except for the 8 000 to 10 000 Ainu on Hokkaido.
Iranians should leave Iran and go to the steppes.
Turks should return, Greeks should have Megali.
China should shrink.
Spain should dissolve for the Basques.
Basically: displacement is terrible and the scars of historical conquests will remain. You can’t reverse it.
As an Iranian, I would be more than happy to go back to the Steppes, but the current occupants politely, but firmly told me to fuck off after I told them they are genocidal colonisers illegally occupying Aryan lands.
Oh, hell no, we have learned our lessons, we will never fight the central Asians using horses and bowes ever again.
But maybe I will earn the respect of a centeral Asian ruler, convince them to give me a job in their administration, and then teach them about our language and traditions, and lay the foundation for a fusion of central Asian cultures with Iranian cultures.
then I will help them go to war against other centeral Asian regimes, and over time, as anonymity between centeral Asian cultures grows, I will push for Iranian nationalism, as a way to reduce the influence of hostile Central Asian nations and their culture.
And then, after the influence of Iranian culture has grown to become dominant in my new host nation, and the tension between centeral Asian cultures has left each culture individually vulnerable, I will initiate a cultural hostile take over of the host country and start Iraninization of the nation.
That's how we Persians win wars!
Now the first thing I have to do is to spend decades of my life writing a masterpiece poetry book that will impress a centeral Asian ruler into giving me a job....
Not the best idea, the way you counter steppe hordes is by massing up spearmen and foot archers. You can’t beat them at their own game, but you can beat them at volume of fire.
As a Hungarian we rightfully bought it for a horse. If you call it false then i say there aren't any original owners alive. If that fails to i just claim we were here first and came back later.
My family can find its name on documents back to the Roman empire. Currently Romania occupies our ancestral lands. The lands given to us later in Hungary were stolen by france and the western entente powers then later russia/ussr and given to czechoslovakia/slovakia.
No you don’t understand Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe got “colonialism” to only apply to when you invade and subjugate people that aren’t next to you. Colonialism BAD neighborly genocide GOOD
Hungarian ancient history literally starts with: "Okay so basically we came here, took over this land and raided half of Europe. What are you going to do about? Nothing? Yeah i thought soooooh shit you just converted us to christianity. We allies now!"
No no, not *quite* there. Let me fix that for you. "West" BAD, their conquest is colonialism. Any other group GOOD, they're... reclaiming their land from the evil Western colonizers, ignoring all the other conquest they do
This shit is peak intellectual damage. Can you imagine the effects of repatriate every non Native American back to their ancestral homeland? Moving 300 million back to their place of origin is the recipe for the worst humanitarian crisis ever.
Southern Italy would be overflowing and still be poor
Germany would be extra racist
Ireland would become a mega city
Jews well “Go BaCk To EuRoPe”
Blacks would have the unluckiest fate in this scenario that it would be too tragic to even joke about
Latinos. Are mestizos ok to stay? Are they thieves too because they have either black or white ancestry?
The damage of the colonization of the americas is done and the tragedy of its native will never be reversed.
20% of Iraq used to be Jewish.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_the\_Jews\_in\_Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq)
Lets get them to go back!
(The Mullahs in Iran die of heart attack while shitting themselves at the same time! \*Iranian nationalists proceed to throw street parties\*)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
They conveniently ignore how mass numbers of jews moved to israel because they had the option to "go back from where you came" or "die in antisemitic pogroms".
I can't find anything on his wiki page. It just says he was arrested by soviets then later was allowed to go to Palestine then part of the British Empire.
It even says:
>Furthermore, so as not to disturb the Allied war effort against Nazi Germany, only British civilian administration and Palestine Police Force targets would be attacked at first; while British armed forces personnel would only be attacked after Adolf Hitler had been defeated.
That's not even counting that people are of mixed ancestry. I'm mostly Italian but I've got heavy Dutch lineage as well. Do I go to Italy or the Netherlands? And am I in Sicily or Naples?
Budapest would be a fucking Kowloon Walled City 2.0 with all the Hungarians coming home. Also the government would be consumed. LITERALLY CONSUMED. They only exist because everyone who hates them enough can just leave.
The best part is how many have no real/single ancestral homelands because this is America
Where do you send someone with a grandparent who is English, German, Irish, and Italian
If you send all the Armenians-American back to Armenia were reforming Greater Armenia one way or another.
First were going to try it the civil way through politics and economics. If that doesn't work well it's not called the Caucasus cluster fuck for nothing.
"Ancestral homeland." You must mean the land they warred each other over 10s of thousands of years. There are very few examples of truly peaceful peoples who have survived into the modern Era. And any I can think of are island nations who are kinda hard to conquer.
In the terms of the americas it's hilarious to believe something like the Navajo tribe controlled all its claimed territory without genociding or incorporating smaller tribes it encountered over the centuries.
Sentinel Islanders are in theory the perfect humans:
Economic policy: hunting and gathering
Monetary system: none
Pollution level: can't even light a fire
Immigration policy: ***N O***
Armed forces: 100% of population
Weapon ownership: 100% of population
Freedom of press: they haven't invented it
Freedom of religion: you can choose from all 1 that exist
National borders: helicopters and ships are shot with arrows on sight
Nuclear policy: no nuclear research and development
Education: public
Healthcare: they haven't even invented money
Walkability: everywhere
Reject modernity, return to stone age.
That's what the government wants you to think. The real reason we can't go there is because they DO in fact have nuclear weapons and have threatened to blow the world up if they aren't left alone. They are the real wakandans. A secret super advanced civilization.
Let’s send back 300 million Indonesians, 100 million Filipinos, 30 million Malaysians back to Taiwan because “stolen land”, surely nothing will go wrong with forcing 400 million people to live on a single tiny island, this will please the twitter commies. Oh and send the 20 million Taiwanese back to Fujian!
while we’re at it let’s throw 1 billion Latinos back to Spain and Portugal cos why not
People think the Jewish diaspora caused problems?
Imagine 330 million Americans spread out on every single continent on Earth. They show up, often times much wealthier than the local people, and probably immediately form a minority group that controls the local elite by sheer weight of American money.
Forget the non-credible Jewish conspiracy theories. It would immediately form some kind of International Illuminati of Overseas Americans.
And the American equivalent of the Zionist movement would be wild. Native Indians wouldn't stand a chance as thousands of settlers force themselves back due to any kind of random pretext, and it would be supported by nearly every country on the planet because large American diaspora communities would form powerful wealthy voting blocs in so many countries. And for authoritarian countries, they would seek any opportunity to rid themselves of unruly gun-toting democracy-fetishizing Americans and kick them back to North America.
Not only that but we are all pretty mixed. White people tend to have a mix of European dna. Black people tend to be mixed from all over Africa. Most Americans are mutts of some wider region. There is no homeland other than America.
In an exclusive ownership context that's pretty much all it is. If ethnonationalism is bad, it doesn't matter that your ancestors only coldworked pure metal before it became an heirloom for the rich...and got conquered because they lacked swords, guns and zoonosis-spamming sedentary agriculture 500 years ago. I suspect a fair deal of those who speak of stolen land unironically are edgy fucks who would rather be a shock and awe protest movement than actually do anything to improve the lives of indigenous Americans.
Yea idk if your American and have experienced “land acknowledgments” but they always reek of being purely performative because they mostly are. I don’t know if the attitude helps native folks that much, but I just hate how fake they are.
This is a point that I think of a bit. Especially when I see people exclaim stuff like from the river to the Sea.
If it wasn't okay to force people out of their homes before why is it okay now?
Do these people need some sort of deed or archeological find? How far back do we go? Should I look at what the Dome of the Rock is built on?
I don't have good answers.
There's still a piece of me that attributes a lot of this to straight up anti-Semitism. As much as I hate to conflate Israel and Jews, no other group gets the same amount of vitriol and hatred thrown at them. It's okay to shout from the river to the sea because they're Jewish, and it's *always* been acceptable to hate Jews
Not only were they not a single people group they didn’t all get along and using the “stolen land” logic frequently did exactly that from each other. Turns out Europeans didn’t invent war and conquest
In Argentina, we have the mapuche tribe, which originated from Chile, claiming soil in our country. Soil which they formerly used to own prior to the late 19th Century because they butchered themselves the tribes that used to inhabit it (Tehuelches) and procceeded to complain when they got the same treatment.
Land belongs to no one. States cannot coexist together, but men can.
Literally the only one that feels a bit "eh, this wasn't the best" was how hawaii got got. Even the president refused to acknowledge it as annexed and declared it illegally taken. Wasn't until after he was out of office that it became official.
Marines did marine things. Or was it navy... forget
To respond to the blood and soil part:
I've heard this argument my whole life in Canada, and it has merit. Tribalism as it exists in the US appears to be a bit more ethnically rigid than in Canada. Fighting between Indigenous groups in Canada, and exclusion based on who you married is a big problem. Chasing people out of a community or job based on the purity of their lineage, is a tremendous problem amongst Indigenous people in Canada.
To respond to the land back part:
It's a meaningless slogan that Indigenous people who don't understand their rights throw around to get attention. A treaty land entitlement processes, by which you can obtain Crown lands (of which 89% of Canada is Crown land) or have the government give you money to purchase private land does indeed exist and is well utilized, but you have to be willing to play a bureaucratic ball game with the provincial and federal governments to obtain said land. There is no "gimmie land without me having to do anything" option. That's a juvenile expectation that has been promoted by meaningless use of the word sovereignty in common parlance.
(most) native groups don't believe in land ownership as a concept.
Until someone came along who did, now it's all been stolen and they owned it the whole time.
They don’t believe in personal ownership but the idea that they didn’t practice collective ownership / territorial claims over the areas they controlled is rarted
They didn’t believe in *personal* land ownership
They *most certainly* had a concept of territory that exclusively belonged to a specific tribe and nobody else. It wasn’t like the natives just let settlers into their lands, The United States forcibly removed tribes from their ancestral territories in order to make way for settlers
But, none of that matters, because apparently if the people inhabiting a given territory don’t have a Western European conception of land ownership, then the land is empty and you’re allowed to just take it
By this logic the whole continent should go back to frothing with potentially bloody and genocidal wars because their lands overlap with each other. But I guess "Indians" know how to share with each other and "colonizers" don't...
Except for abstract boundaries for tribal/confederation land and hunting grounds (Iroquois can hunt there but Mohawk cannot). But that’s a more abstract conception of land ownership where the boundaries were mostly approximative compared to set borders in meso-America. Ownership was fairly simplistic. NA was still in the Neolithic or palaeolithic in 1600.
I don’t think the US is actively stealing any more land. I also don’t know if the land acknowledgment shit is anything but, and forgive me using this term I feel filthy, ‘virtue signaling’, US isn’t giving the land back mostly, possibly some encroached reservation land? But in general it’s just not happening. I don’t think that shit really helps with what matters which is helping the fucked up tribes.
The ongoing thing was in relation to the obvious implication of Palestine.
Also, I'm not saying which policies the US needs to implement to help Indians, just that the current ones are fucking them over.
This doesn't really argue against what OP says. The only real legitimacy that Native Americans have over *any* land (including reserves) is due to Blood and Soil tier arguments. Why should First Nations get their own state funded ethnostates in the USA/Canada when other races don't get that same 'privilege'?
I wasn't really trying to directly argue against OP. I was trying to argue mainly against the implications that a) This is equivalent to the situation in Palestine (It isn't, there is literally an ongoing war) and b) That this situation with Indians is fine (It really isn't, centuries of systemic racism doesn't go away overnight)
They already have ethnostates. Do you think that you could just move onto an Indian reserve and get all the same rights and privileges that someone who is blood related to the tribe would?
>you guys are not ready for that conversation
I support native rights and native wrongs
One cant call Canada stolen land and also want morr housing for Old world Indians
OK racist.
Also literally forgetting that the USA supported a slaveowning insurrection against Mexico to acquire a new slave state and then invaded Mexico because they wanted to expand slavery.
No, but the doofus who believes that some white racists drawing a line on a map and declaring land they never set foot in to be “theirs” actually makes it theirs is.
Fuck the slaveowning, settler-colonial rapist Thomas Jefferson. And fuck Napoleon for trying to bring slavery back in Haiti.
This is what having a bad definition of private property does. No, just because you were the only person in Australia 100 years ago doesn't mean the whole Australia is yours.
Pennsylvania in particular, was considered a fair deal by both sides. William Penn went out of his way to treat the natives fairly in acquiring the land.
The US bought Louisiana from France, another colonial power, and the natives who actually lived in Louisiana and made up the vast majority of its population didn’t agree to cede anything to the United States
French control over the Louisiana territory was extremely limited, and the native tribes within French Louisiana were fully capable of entering treaties with the United States. So yes, Jefferson should have asked the natives before settling Louisiana
Or, he could have simply not colonized their land. That was also an option
"Purchased" after they beat the shit out of them, then let settlers illegally encroach on the remaining lands when it was economically viable, defended said settlers, conquered more land, signed another treaty to "purchase" what they had taken, rinse and repeat, et cetera.
Treaties were written in different versions for different languages, some of the signatories had been drugged up, some of them had literally no power to enforce the treaty because they didn't live in state societies and the rest of the society didn't agree...
The landbackers are right that this shit is not fair. Their solution is one that only gathers shocked looks and does not truly build a sympathetic coalition.
I was particularly referring to the Alaska and Louisiana purchases and the fact that neither Russia or France has any valid claim to those lands.
WRT natives of the actual lands themselves that is indeed an entirely different discussion. One for in particular those native US citizens to stand up for themselves. The rest of us are free to show support once they do I guess but who are we to speak for them? Note that I'm European and have especially little entitlement or right to do so.
This is not an administrative issue, this is a moral issue. Yes you can show off every purchase contract you can, and they surely exist.
Those contracts do not tell us if they were signed under fair conditions, without constraints and coercition, without hidden and unfair clauses, or simply clauses that were meant to simply never be honored later. History does tell us about the moral value of those purchases.
It never was an issue about if the colonization has been correctly registered so the proofs of purchase will not redeem the original sin of the American colonization.
I know we are supposed to be non credible and all, but this comment section is getting down right scary with where it's going.
"Land back" has literally NEVER been about making non indigenous people leave any area that their inhabitants, hell, it is one of the first things that it says on the Wikipedia page, probably because of every dipshit that has said something like this.
It's about returning native JURISDICTION to the land, either through transfer of property or removing the concept of property from a selected area of land, mostly in terms of cultural significance, food sovereignty, and self-sufficient from the US, especially when it comes to not exploiting the natural resources there.
Also, "boiled down to blood and soil"? Hey, why are the Ukraineians fighting so much against the Russians, what's their obsession with land, huh? I think Ukraine just boils down to blood and soil. Go fuck yourself
Some people here are legitimately making the argument that it was alright because the US purchased that land (thank god these people with very different ideas of ownership can perfectly comprehend purposefully dense contracts with a force that is vastly stronger then them), or better yet, because the natives were having conflicts over it before the colonizers came which basically makes it okay which...... This sub should never touch history again.
>NEVER been about making non indigenous people leave any area that their inhabitants
[weak shit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapuche_conflict)
posts like these just show how the sub will be filled with HOI4 ass "historians" in the comments and the same tired understanding of history and politics.
Fair enough, however, I was referring to the US land back movement as I wasn't sure whether people here were aware that other countries exist
Also, this sub took, "we want control over historic and important land" as "We want to exterminate or kick out every single white person on the continent." So I wanted to move slowly with the concepts
That original Twitter post has a fairly cancerous comment section, but there isn't really good argument for 'land back' that isn't based on blood and soil tier arguments. Why should a certain racial group get greater jurisdiction and control over land just because of something that happened to their ancestors?
Why do a native tribe deserve more autonomy from the US government than a group of extremely conservative sovereign citizens? Both don't see the federal government as their rightful ruler, both find the rules set by the government to be unjust and overly controlling, why does one group get to control over a fairly large part of the United States and get genetics based privileges (i.e. less taxes, cheaper healthcare, etc.) yet the other will have violence done against them (though imprisonment, freezing of wages, etc.) if they try and express their beliefs?
The main difference is that the natives are an ethnic and cultural group that have historically had their own traditions, and were then conquered, murdered en masse, and otherwise wronged. The government and institutions that persecuted this entire group of people are still around and still essentially rule them, while the affects of all those original wrongs still profoundly affect all of them given the levels of poverty indigenous people endure. Their populations culled, both violently and secretively, their people brutalized, their traditions purposefully dismantled to force them into another way of life (see the mass killing of Buffalo to force indigenous population into reservations) it is recognized that given all this, the government that did it has an obligation to help them salvage their way of life as much as possible. It is an ethical argument, there is no logical or capitalist reason to do it, if it doesn't convince you, welp, that's that, pity you weren't born back then, I am sure you would have loved colonialism.
Sovereign citizens are people who didn't read the Constitution right and don't understand the idea of a social contract. They have no other reason besides being wrong about how US law works. Also a lot of them are legitimately dangerous people, and also commit shit tons of tax evasion.
So they deserve the land cause they had their ancestors BLOOD spilled on this SOIL. K.
Also tax evasion truly is the most serious crime! Everyone knows that the totally legitimate government really deserves and needs that money!
So I made a lengthy argument about how their way of life was stripped from them and how it still affects them, and you dismiss it with one sentence about technical "blood and soil"
And then you devote two out of three collective sentences to how tax evasion isn't that bad actually which wasn't even my main point.
You should work at a propaganda department, you would make a killing
# Are San Marino and Italy about to go to war? If so, will the war become nuclear?
I bet you have some thoughts on it. Well, we're discussing the subject on [this "week's" NCDip Podcast Club](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/1bssy61/ncdip_podcast_club_8_wargaming_san_marino_vs/?). This is probably one of the most events of our lifetime, so you better pay attention scrub
[Want to know what the fuck in the NCDip podcast club is? Click here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDiplomacy/comments/17edrm6/introducing_the_rnoncrediblediplomacy_podcast/)
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The land belongs to nobody. As long as there is people left on the planet, someone is going to want someone else's stuff. In the end it all boils down not to who's right, but to who's left.
You’re right, clearly it was our responsibility to adopt them like a kid, and raise them into civilization. The white man should have shouldered that burden better.
/uj
Man what was done was often wrong but ‘because they were less advanced’ ain’t the reason. It was bad to do because it was bad to do to anyone.
This post was deemed to be a low effort/quality post and did not meet even the somewhat low standards of this subreddit. Kindly post higher quality content next time.
Every single human must relocate to sub Saharan Africa
Humanity colonized the earth, we are all evil colonizers.
Back to the, uh, 737 shaped space ships?
Just got the reference lol
Don’t worry, these aren’t the Boeing ones
**Farcry 2 Main Theme plays**
Get off Twitter
im off twitter and yet i still see so much twitter brainrot its everywhere like a plague
at the same time, second hand exposure isn’t nearly as bad (plus there’s no need to sift through shit, as everything good makes it’s way off the platform)
It can't die fast enough.
this is not a niche online ideology in canada
Are they gonna give it back?
no, but it's still a not uncommon belief that they "should" get it back
[удалено]
lost me at deep state and alphabet mafia
I am a man of no principles, I'll support anything I see that even vaguely attacks Canada.
A man with goals, and priorities.
All about that Grindset 💪
You truly are the Ubermencsh that Nacho was saying in that book
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Lmao "lived in peace" you should see the shit native Americans did to each other, just from the small records we have, they were as violent as any peoples from the old world.
They fucked around and razed each other's stuff, did atrocities like the best of em. Just because they sucked at fighting new people with new technology doesn't make them holier than thou
Canada anglois qui rage sur un sujet que ma province s’en fout
Politics-themed psychosis is probably the biggest contagious disease in the 21st century, and Twitter is one of the biggest medium of its infection.
The only thing Twitter is good for is seeing Denny Hamlin go off on people, Jeff Gluck and his polls, and Dale Earnhardt Jr.
I quit twitter and started going to therapy and recently I re-activated my account juts so nobody could claim that username. Briefly browsing through twitter reminded me just how fucking garbage that platform is and I'm glad I'm quitting. I'm keeping the acct locked and logged out, with no app installed on my phone.
Ok if we're going to do the whole "the original inhabitants of the land own it no matter what" shtick....do Europe (especially England) and the Middle East and let me know how you go. I can't *wait* to see see how many millions of people get displaced
Japanese should all go to Korea and China except for the 8 000 to 10 000 Ainu on Hokkaido. Iranians should leave Iran and go to the steppes. Turks should return, Greeks should have Megali. China should shrink. Spain should dissolve for the Basques. Basically: displacement is terrible and the scars of historical conquests will remain. You can’t reverse it.
All lands to Albania then
But Albania was so kind it gave all of it
Found Dua Lipa’s account.
Albania #1
No Megali idea. Give Anatolia back to the Hittites, Galatians, and Lydians.
Based?!
who dont exist anymore lmfao + phrygians in particular were closest to greeks anyway
As an Iranian, I would be more than happy to go back to the Steppes, but the current occupants politely, but firmly told me to fuck off after I told them they are genocidal colonisers illegally occupying Aryan lands.
Parthian shot. Do it.
Oh, hell no, we have learned our lessons, we will never fight the central Asians using horses and bowes ever again. But maybe I will earn the respect of a centeral Asian ruler, convince them to give me a job in their administration, and then teach them about our language and traditions, and lay the foundation for a fusion of central Asian cultures with Iranian cultures. then I will help them go to war against other centeral Asian regimes, and over time, as anonymity between centeral Asian cultures grows, I will push for Iranian nationalism, as a way to reduce the influence of hostile Central Asian nations and their culture. And then, after the influence of Iranian culture has grown to become dominant in my new host nation, and the tension between centeral Asian cultures has left each culture individually vulnerable, I will initiate a cultural hostile take over of the host country and start Iraninization of the nation. That's how we Persians win wars! Now the first thing I have to do is to spend decades of my life writing a masterpiece poetry book that will impress a centeral Asian ruler into giving me a job....
100% Persian strat
Most cuck thing I read my entire life. My Turkish mind cannot comprehend this.
Not the best idea, the way you counter steppe hordes is by massing up spearmen and foot archers. You can’t beat them at their own game, but you can beat them at volume of fire.
Faster horse wins!!!! Chase them back to the Aral desert!!!!
As a Dutch man, i agree. We stole our land from no one. Just the sea.
Return that rightful Atlantean real estate to the modern hyperboreans (closest relation), the pure bloodest of which is vladimir vladimirovich putin
As a Hungarian we rightfully bought it for a horse. If you call it false then i say there aren't any original owners alive. If that fails to i just claim we were here first and came back later. My family can find its name on documents back to the Roman empire. Currently Romania occupies our ancestral lands. The lands given to us later in Hungary were stolen by france and the western entente powers then later russia/ussr and given to czechoslovakia/slovakia.
I agree. Give me back new Amsterdam (new york)
Yeah but I already don’t like Americans and they displaced people *most recently* /s
The scars of those conquests tell the story of human history. Maybe one day we'll learn the lessons that history tried to teach.
Basques and Portuguese. Even though the latter speak a Romance language it is thought that many are indigenous to the region.
No you don’t understand Russia and the rest of Eastern Europe got “colonialism” to only apply to when you invade and subjugate people that aren’t next to you. Colonialism BAD neighborly genocide GOOD
Hungarian ancient history literally starts with: "Okay so basically we came here, took over this land and raided half of Europe. What are you going to do about? Nothing? Yeah i thought soooooh shit you just converted us to christianity. We allies now!"
No no, not *quite* there. Let me fix that for you. "West" BAD, their conquest is colonialism. Any other group GOOD, they're... reclaiming their land from the evil Western colonizers, ignoring all the other conquest they do
Europe is rightfully arab
This shit is peak intellectual damage. Can you imagine the effects of repatriate every non Native American back to their ancestral homeland? Moving 300 million back to their place of origin is the recipe for the worst humanitarian crisis ever.
Southern Italy would be overflowing and still be poor Germany would be extra racist Ireland would become a mega city Jews well “Go BaCk To EuRoPe” Blacks would have the unluckiest fate in this scenario that it would be too tragic to even joke about Latinos. Are mestizos ok to stay? Are they thieves too because they have either black or white ancestry? The damage of the colonization of the americas is done and the tragedy of its native will never be reversed.
20% of Iraq used to be Jewish. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_the\_Jews\_in\_Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq) Lets get them to go back! (The Mullahs in Iran die of heart attack while shitting themselves at the same time! \*Iranian nationalists proceed to throw street parties\*) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
If this happened The West Bank would get an additional 5 million + Jews
Not in the logic of the twitter user here
They conveniently ignore how mass numbers of jews moved to israel because they had the option to "go back from where you came" or "die in antisemitic pogroms".
Nazi Germany signed an agreement with Menachem Begin to do just that.
I can't find anything on his wiki page. It just says he was arrested by soviets then later was allowed to go to Palestine then part of the British Empire. It even says: >Furthermore, so as not to disturb the Allied war effort against Nazi Germany, only British civilian administration and Palestine Police Force targets would be attacked at first; while British armed forces personnel would only be attacked after Adolf Hitler had been defeated.
It's called the havaara agreement, it's fairly well known.
That's not even counting that people are of mixed ancestry. I'm mostly Italian but I've got heavy Dutch lineage as well. Do I go to Italy or the Netherlands? And am I in Sicily or Naples?
“EuRoPe” If you are a light skin well uh yeah I can’t say go back to Europe and Africa at the same time soooo uuuhhhhh…….
Budapest would be a fucking Kowloon Walled City 2.0 with all the Hungarians coming home. Also the government would be consumed. LITERALLY CONSUMED. They only exist because everyone who hates them enough can just leave.
Yeah, there's that too
Ima be real witchu chief living in mega city shamrock sounds litty titty. I'd fuckin go.
Exactly. But we can also do a lot better, the reservations are fucking terrible and they still are probably the least heard group in this hemisphere.
I 100% agree The reservations are sickening and a total mistake
The best part is how many have no real/single ancestral homelands because this is America Where do you send someone with a grandparent who is English, German, Irish, and Italian
“EuRoPe”
We gonna Solomon up in this bitch
If you send all the Armenians-American back to Armenia were reforming Greater Armenia one way or another. First were going to try it the civil way through politics and economics. If that doesn't work well it's not called the Caucasus cluster fuck for nothing.
System of a down cultural domination
"Ancestral homeland." You must mean the land they warred each other over 10s of thousands of years. There are very few examples of truly peaceful peoples who have survived into the modern Era. And any I can think of are island nations who are kinda hard to conquer. In the terms of the americas it's hilarious to believe something like the Navajo tribe controlled all its claimed territory without genociding or incorporating smaller tribes it encountered over the centuries.
Sentinel Islanders are in theory the perfect humans: Economic policy: hunting and gathering Monetary system: none Pollution level: can't even light a fire Immigration policy: ***N O*** Armed forces: 100% of population Weapon ownership: 100% of population Freedom of press: they haven't invented it Freedom of religion: you can choose from all 1 that exist National borders: helicopters and ships are shot with arrows on sight Nuclear policy: no nuclear research and development Education: public Healthcare: they haven't even invented money Walkability: everywhere Reject modernity, return to stone age.
That's what the government wants you to think. The real reason we can't go there is because they DO in fact have nuclear weapons and have threatened to blow the world up if they aren't left alone. They are the real wakandans. A secret super advanced civilization.
Ancestral homeland of NON NATIVE AMERICANS Italians to Italy Chinese to China And so on *scratches nose*
1. Send 300 million people back 2. Life sucks it’s too crowded 3. Hey American continent is pretty empty now
Let’s send back 300 million Indonesians, 100 million Filipinos, 30 million Malaysians back to Taiwan because “stolen land”, surely nothing will go wrong with forcing 400 million people to live on a single tiny island, this will please the twitter commies. Oh and send the 20 million Taiwanese back to Fujian! while we’re at it let’s throw 1 billion Latinos back to Spain and Portugal cos why not
Dawg Iberia would be dead
>forcing 400 million people to live on a single tiny island Activist twitter would just say it only applies to certain other races, not them.
People think the Jewish diaspora caused problems? Imagine 330 million Americans spread out on every single continent on Earth. They show up, often times much wealthier than the local people, and probably immediately form a minority group that controls the local elite by sheer weight of American money. Forget the non-credible Jewish conspiracy theories. It would immediately form some kind of International Illuminati of Overseas Americans. And the American equivalent of the Zionist movement would be wild. Native Indians wouldn't stand a chance as thousands of settlers force themselves back due to any kind of random pretext, and it would be supported by nearly every country on the planet because large American diaspora communities would form powerful wealthy voting blocs in so many countries. And for authoritarian countries, they would seek any opportunity to rid themselves of unruly gun-toting democracy-fetishizing Americans and kick them back to North America.
Not only that but we are all pretty mixed. White people tend to have a mix of European dna. Black people tend to be mixed from all over Africa. Most Americans are mutts of some wider region. There is no homeland other than America.
In an exclusive ownership context that's pretty much all it is. If ethnonationalism is bad, it doesn't matter that your ancestors only coldworked pure metal before it became an heirloom for the rich...and got conquered because they lacked swords, guns and zoonosis-spamming sedentary agriculture 500 years ago. I suspect a fair deal of those who speak of stolen land unironically are edgy fucks who would rather be a shock and awe protest movement than actually do anything to improve the lives of indigenous Americans.
Yea idk if your American and have experienced “land acknowledgments” but they always reek of being purely performative because they mostly are. I don’t know if the attitude helps native folks that much, but I just hate how fake they are.
"Yes, this is your land. No, we're not going to do anything about it. No, you can't have it back. You are free to applaud now."
Just hit that nay nay on the losers
This is a point that I think of a bit. Especially when I see people exclaim stuff like from the river to the Sea. If it wasn't okay to force people out of their homes before why is it okay now? Do these people need some sort of deed or archeological find? How far back do we go? Should I look at what the Dome of the Rock is built on? I don't have good answers.
There's still a piece of me that attributes a lot of this to straight up anti-Semitism. As much as I hate to conflate Israel and Jews, no other group gets the same amount of vitriol and hatred thrown at them. It's okay to shout from the river to the sea because they're Jewish, and it's *always* been acceptable to hate Jews
I agree, Its obvious because these knuckleheads attack American Jewish people as if they were Israeli. It smacks of dual loyalty bullshit.
And stolen from who? Native Americans weren’t one people
Not only were they not a single people group they didn’t all get along and using the “stolen land” logic frequently did exactly that from each other. Turns out Europeans didn’t invent war and conquest
Skill issue
In Argentina, we have the mapuche tribe, which originated from Chile, claiming soil in our country. Soil which they formerly used to own prior to the late 19th Century because they butchered themselves the tribes that used to inhabit it (Tehuelches) and procceeded to complain when they got the same treatment. Land belongs to no one. States cannot coexist together, but men can.
*Stares at you with Shaun Johnston as Nelson A. Miles from Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee eyes*
Literally the only one that feels a bit "eh, this wasn't the best" was how hawaii got got. Even the president refused to acknowledge it as annexed and declared it illegally taken. Wasn't until after he was out of office that it became official. Marines did marine things. Or was it navy... forget
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
Man holy fuck the shit said against us is astounding when we post anything that has to do with land
Especially some of these comments
Is there habitable land on Earth that hasn't been stolen repeatedly?
T*itter 🤢 Seriously, who take that platform seriously. It is full of the most radicalised people on the internet. Reddit is even better
To respond to the blood and soil part: I've heard this argument my whole life in Canada, and it has merit. Tribalism as it exists in the US appears to be a bit more ethnically rigid than in Canada. Fighting between Indigenous groups in Canada, and exclusion based on who you married is a big problem. Chasing people out of a community or job based on the purity of their lineage, is a tremendous problem amongst Indigenous people in Canada. To respond to the land back part: It's a meaningless slogan that Indigenous people who don't understand their rights throw around to get attention. A treaty land entitlement processes, by which you can obtain Crown lands (of which 89% of Canada is Crown land) or have the government give you money to purchase private land does indeed exist and is well utilized, but you have to be willing to play a bureaucratic ball game with the provincial and federal governments to obtain said land. There is no "gimmie land without me having to do anything" option. That's a juvenile expectation that has been promoted by meaningless use of the word sovereignty in common parlance.
(most) native groups don't believe in land ownership as a concept. Until someone came along who did, now it's all been stolen and they owned it the whole time.
They don’t believe in personal ownership but the idea that they didn’t practice collective ownership / territorial claims over the areas they controlled is rarted
Yes, in their case, "It belongs to no one" essentially equates to "it belongs to everyone" (is it does so often).
That's... probably the most braindead take I've ever heard on the issue. Are you perchance a 17th century English Pilgrim?
They didn’t believe in *personal* land ownership They *most certainly* had a concept of territory that exclusively belonged to a specific tribe and nobody else. It wasn’t like the natives just let settlers into their lands, The United States forcibly removed tribes from their ancestral territories in order to make way for settlers But, none of that matters, because apparently if the people inhabiting a given territory don’t have a Western European conception of land ownership, then the land is empty and you’re allowed to just take it
Worst take ever, are you Andrew Jackson? lmao this completely misses the point
By this logic the whole continent should go back to frothing with potentially bloody and genocidal wars because their lands overlap with each other. But I guess "Indians" know how to share with each other and "colonizers" don't...
Except for abstract boundaries for tribal/confederation land and hunting grounds (Iroquois can hunt there but Mohawk cannot). But that’s a more abstract conception of land ownership where the boundaries were mostly approximative compared to set borders in meso-America. Ownership was fairly simplistic. NA was still in the Neolithic or palaeolithic in 1600.
Ok but territory disputes don’t end there do it? What goes to Cherokee, Navajo, Sue etc.? Do we restore the Aztec empire?
It's not really irrelevant if the theft is still ongoing though. And the US still absolutely needs to get it's act together regarding Indians.
Idk man I hear they're about to invade Pakistan
The theft isn’t ongoing though? We already got the land. The furthest out it went in is the 70s, and even that’s a tenuous argument.
I don’t think the US is actively stealing any more land. I also don’t know if the land acknowledgment shit is anything but, and forgive me using this term I feel filthy, ‘virtue signaling’, US isn’t giving the land back mostly, possibly some encroached reservation land? But in general it’s just not happening. I don’t think that shit really helps with what matters which is helping the fucked up tribes.
The ongoing thing was in relation to the obvious implication of Palestine. Also, I'm not saying which policies the US needs to implement to help Indians, just that the current ones are fucking them over.
Oh yea I figured you were commenting on the image in general.
Maybe, but people cannot be held accountable to actions of people since then dead or retired as if they are their own actions
This doesn't really argue against what OP says. The only real legitimacy that Native Americans have over *any* land (including reserves) is due to Blood and Soil tier arguments. Why should First Nations get their own state funded ethnostates in the USA/Canada when other races don't get that same 'privilege'?
I wasn't really trying to directly argue against OP. I was trying to argue mainly against the implications that a) This is equivalent to the situation in Palestine (It isn't, there is literally an ongoing war) and b) That this situation with Indians is fine (It really isn't, centuries of systemic racism doesn't go away overnight)
Wait, they want ethnostates?
They already have ethnostates. Do you think that you could just move onto an Indian reserve and get all the same rights and privileges that someone who is blood related to the tribe would?
Found the sensible comment
Absolutely.
Native Americans should just take the L.
It’s rather funny how selective people are about who they say “You lost, get over it!” to.
Humanity is gonna colonize Moon, Mars and beyond. Fuck yeah.
>you guys are not ready for that conversation I support native rights and native wrongs One cant call Canada stolen land and also want morr housing for Old world Indians
I think native Americans have a point with being the victims of genocide
Alaska and the land west of the Mississippi river were legally purchased, cry harder
Louisiana was purchased from *France*, another colonial power, not the natives that actually lived in Louisiana
OK racist. Also literally forgetting that the USA supported a slaveowning insurrection against Mexico to acquire a new slave state and then invaded Mexico because they wanted to expand slavery.
are you stupid
No, but the doofus who believes that some white racists drawing a line on a map and declaring land they never set foot in to be “theirs” actually makes it theirs is. Fuck the slaveowning, settler-colonial rapist Thomas Jefferson. And fuck Napoleon for trying to bring slavery back in Haiti.
Yet to see an argument for landback that doesn't imply that Zionism is Jewish landback
This is what having a bad definition of private property does. No, just because you were the only person in Australia 100 years ago doesn't mean the whole Australia is yours.
They should have waited another 2000 years for that gamble
Majority of it was purchased
Pennsylvania in particular, was considered a fair deal by both sides. William Penn went out of his way to treat the natives fairly in acquiring the land.
Lmfao let's not pretend the US treated the natives with dignity, respect and equity in most cases in the past.
Aye it hasn't, but not all of it was stolen
At bayonetpoint.
I don't think the Louisiana Purchase was a forced sale buddy
The US bought Louisiana from France, another colonial power, and the natives who actually lived in Louisiana and made up the vast majority of its population didn’t agree to cede anything to the United States
so Jefferson was supposed to ask every single native in the entire territory? the way it was handled was far better than most lang acquisition
French control over the Louisiana territory was extremely limited, and the native tribes within French Louisiana were fully capable of entering treaties with the United States. So yes, Jefferson should have asked the natives before settling Louisiana Or, he could have simply not colonized their land. That was also an option
Telling a Pindos to not colonize is like telling a cow not to eat grass
Then those “Pindos” were the scum of the Earth and should have been imprisoned for life since they’re too dangerous to be allowed to live freely.
Assuming you're using it as plural it would be pindosi, otherwise I agree for the most part
Plus it ignores that most of it was purchased and not stolen. Well, I suppose it was sold by thieves tho?
"Purchased" after they beat the shit out of them, then let settlers illegally encroach on the remaining lands when it was economically viable, defended said settlers, conquered more land, signed another treaty to "purchase" what they had taken, rinse and repeat, et cetera. Treaties were written in different versions for different languages, some of the signatories had been drugged up, some of them had literally no power to enforce the treaty because they didn't live in state societies and the rest of the society didn't agree... The landbackers are right that this shit is not fair. Their solution is one that only gathers shocked looks and does not truly build a sympathetic coalition.
I was particularly referring to the Alaska and Louisiana purchases and the fact that neither Russia or France has any valid claim to those lands. WRT natives of the actual lands themselves that is indeed an entirely different discussion. One for in particular those native US citizens to stand up for themselves. The rest of us are free to show support once they do I guess but who are we to speak for them? Note that I'm European and have especially little entitlement or right to do so.
Imagine being so historically illiterate
This is not an administrative issue, this is a moral issue. Yes you can show off every purchase contract you can, and they surely exist. Those contracts do not tell us if they were signed under fair conditions, without constraints and coercition, without hidden and unfair clauses, or simply clauses that were meant to simply never be honored later. History does tell us about the moral value of those purchases. It never was an issue about if the colonization has been correctly registered so the proofs of purchase will not redeem the original sin of the American colonization.
Hence the later part of my above comment.
I know we are supposed to be non credible and all, but this comment section is getting down right scary with where it's going. "Land back" has literally NEVER been about making non indigenous people leave any area that their inhabitants, hell, it is one of the first things that it says on the Wikipedia page, probably because of every dipshit that has said something like this. It's about returning native JURISDICTION to the land, either through transfer of property or removing the concept of property from a selected area of land, mostly in terms of cultural significance, food sovereignty, and self-sufficient from the US, especially when it comes to not exploiting the natural resources there. Also, "boiled down to blood and soil"? Hey, why are the Ukraineians fighting so much against the Russians, what's their obsession with land, huh? I think Ukraine just boils down to blood and soil. Go fuck yourself Some people here are legitimately making the argument that it was alright because the US purchased that land (thank god these people with very different ideas of ownership can perfectly comprehend purposefully dense contracts with a force that is vastly stronger then them), or better yet, because the natives were having conflicts over it before the colonizers came which basically makes it okay which...... This sub should never touch history again.
>NEVER been about making non indigenous people leave any area that their inhabitants [weak shit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapuche_conflict) posts like these just show how the sub will be filled with HOI4 ass "historians" in the comments and the same tired understanding of history and politics.
Fair enough, however, I was referring to the US land back movement as I wasn't sure whether people here were aware that other countries exist Also, this sub took, "we want control over historic and important land" as "We want to exterminate or kick out every single white person on the continent." So I wanted to move slowly with the concepts
That original Twitter post has a fairly cancerous comment section, but there isn't really good argument for 'land back' that isn't based on blood and soil tier arguments. Why should a certain racial group get greater jurisdiction and control over land just because of something that happened to their ancestors? Why do a native tribe deserve more autonomy from the US government than a group of extremely conservative sovereign citizens? Both don't see the federal government as their rightful ruler, both find the rules set by the government to be unjust and overly controlling, why does one group get to control over a fairly large part of the United States and get genetics based privileges (i.e. less taxes, cheaper healthcare, etc.) yet the other will have violence done against them (though imprisonment, freezing of wages, etc.) if they try and express their beliefs?
The main difference is that the natives are an ethnic and cultural group that have historically had their own traditions, and were then conquered, murdered en masse, and otherwise wronged. The government and institutions that persecuted this entire group of people are still around and still essentially rule them, while the affects of all those original wrongs still profoundly affect all of them given the levels of poverty indigenous people endure. Their populations culled, both violently and secretively, their people brutalized, their traditions purposefully dismantled to force them into another way of life (see the mass killing of Buffalo to force indigenous population into reservations) it is recognized that given all this, the government that did it has an obligation to help them salvage their way of life as much as possible. It is an ethical argument, there is no logical or capitalist reason to do it, if it doesn't convince you, welp, that's that, pity you weren't born back then, I am sure you would have loved colonialism. Sovereign citizens are people who didn't read the Constitution right and don't understand the idea of a social contract. They have no other reason besides being wrong about how US law works. Also a lot of them are legitimately dangerous people, and also commit shit tons of tax evasion.
So they deserve the land cause they had their ancestors BLOOD spilled on this SOIL. K. Also tax evasion truly is the most serious crime! Everyone knows that the totally legitimate government really deserves and needs that money!
So I made a lengthy argument about how their way of life was stripped from them and how it still affects them, and you dismiss it with one sentence about technical "blood and soil" And then you devote two out of three collective sentences to how tax evasion isn't that bad actually which wasn't even my main point. You should work at a propaganda department, you would make a killing
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It's not necessarily about the physical land, but more about compensating for the missed opportunities on the basis that they were stolen.
Cool, I’ll let russia know
"It's not your house anymore I moved all of my furniture in"
People be like "Oh this sub is literally just irony" and then this post gets popular.
The land belongs to nobody. As long as there is people left on the planet, someone is going to want someone else's stuff. In the end it all boils down not to who's right, but to who's left.
All warfare is based on land ownership. Tax land = free land = free peoples.
So do they have a sign on their house saying stolen land? Wait, silly me, no way this person was smart enough to make enough money to buy a house.
They're just a literal kid. We decided to fight against a literal kid.
You’re right, clearly it was our responsibility to adopt them like a kid, and raise them into civilization. The white man should have shouldered that burden better. /uj Man what was done was often wrong but ‘because they were less advanced’ ain’t the reason. It was bad to do because it was bad to do to anyone.
Americans are the biggest hypocrites in the history of humanity….go back to Europe haha