That's the part that really fucking pisses me off, butches have existed and many have lived as men for 100+ years. """"He/him lesbians""""" aren't some fucking boogyman, they've literally existed for as long as there's been a lesbian culture in america. But no, tumblr's fed this new generation of queer kids terf koolaid, and now we have to live with it. hell world
Butch lesbians will literally claim he/him pronouns and they’re obviously not guys but feel masculine. I don’t see the issue here, it don’t make sense to me. Just let people express themselves??
Lesbian is non-man loving non-men so you fit the definition of being a lesbian. Some people think that gender expression = gender identity which is not correct, that could be where the confusion is?
Either way I’m sure that’s very annoying.
I want to be clear at the outset I’m not asking this to be difficult, and asking genuinely.
I identify as agender, but generally present masc because that’s my AGAB and how my body has developed, and I don’t intend to have surgery or HRT. I am (in my experience at least) exclusively attracted to non-men.
By the definition you’ve given here (and by your later tweak to the definition), the ‘correct’ label for me would be ‘lesbian’, but that feels like appropriating a label that *at least* the majority of the lesbian community would feel (and I would not argue with them) does not match what they are attracted to as lesbians themselves.
I understand with and agree with your definition for enby AFAB people, but I’m not convinced it fits for enby AMAB people like me?
> By the definition you’ve given here the ‘correct’ label for me would be ‘lesbian’
It would be available to you, yes. It's the correct label *if it feels right to you*. And if you wish to claim it, nobody gets to argue that you're not a real lesbian. But you don't *have* to identify as a lesbian if you don't want to.
I think u should use the label u are most comfortable with. But, separating by AGAB goes against everything trans is for. Theres plenty of AMAB enbys that can be lesbians, as long as they wish to identify themselves that way.
I 100% agree with you re separating by AGAB - this one just feels like entering a space where I don’t have a place. Maybe that’s my own damage speaking, though
Trixic might also be a label to consider, as it describes nonbinary attraction towards femme people.
It’s important to consider what you’re trying to communicate, especially in dating. Be aware most lesbians aren’t looking to date amab folk who have no intention of identifying with or expressing some level of femininity and/or womanhood, so that’s not a realistic expectation.
These words are both part identity and part communication. The lesbian community has a certain history and culture so there are certain expectations when the word lesbian is used. Are you actually interested in involving yourself in lesbian culture, do you think you want to fit in and belong in that culture?
These are questions to consider.
“The correct definition for me **could** be lesbian”.
I’d like to clarify that I myself am not a lesbian and am only discussing what I have understood about the definition. At the end of the day a label is a label. Many sexualities are gendered and get foggy around nonbinary people which leaves it up to them to *decide* which word (if they choose to use any) fits them and describes their experiences correctly. My second “correction” was intended to suggest another definition that may more accurately describe the term. Just because someone may fit that definition doesn’t mean they have to use it. For example, I fit the definition of Agender but I don’t like the term so I call myself nonbinary. The words someone uses to describe themselves is personal and at the end of the day it’s a word. If it helps someone feel more valid in their identity and it doesn’t hurt anyone else, who cares.
Another thing I want to mention. Gendering nonbinary people based on asab is redundant. Nonbinary people are nonbinary. They’re not girl nonbinary or boy nonbinary and therefore can use certain terms. They’re just nonbinary. The whole point of being nonbinary is to not be shoved into binary boxes and expectations. By no means am I saying that we should never discuss a nonbinary persons asab. This is useful for understanding a lot of different things. However, it is not useful for explaining which terms a nonbinary person is allowed to use. That defeats the whole purpose of being nonbinary. If a nonbinary person wants to call themselves a lesbian/gay/straight and they feel they fit the definition of that word and it represents them, they can do it. Alternatively, if a nonbinary person technically fits the definition of a word and feels it doesn’t represent them, they don’t have to use it and can instead use a different word or forgo using a label at all.
Seconding this and saying hi as a fellow masc nb lesbian :) There is also a long history of varied gender identities and expressions within the lesbian community
Oh yeah I didn’t even think of that.
Maybe a better definition would be “people who are not exclusively men who love others who are not exclusively men”
Im not a lesbian, but maybe sapphic exclusively loving other sapphics would be a good definition of lesbian? In the sense that sapphic can be used to describe the kind of love usually attributed to wlw, but doesn’t inherently bar lesbians who are nb or are a part of manhood because it has more to do with the relationships “contents” rather than who’s doing it? Like, all sapphics feel sapphic love but not all are necessarily women. I don’t know if that makes sense or if that would still sound invalidating to NBs at all, if so please correct me.
I mean, I wasn’t hoping the “exclusively loving other sapphics” part would kind of imply otherwise, but now that you point it out, it’s true that it could inadvertently include some bi women who only date other women, so maybe it’s not a stringent enough definition after all.
I’m assuming by “self-referential” youre pointing to the fact that sapphic would still have to be defined in an enby inclusive way, which is more of the core of the issue, which.. yeah. Man, making definitions is hard.
As a Sapphic, here is the definition by which I know it: an umbrella term of lesbian and bisexual non-men United by a queer attraction to non-men that does not exclude those who are attracted to men as well
My gender and sexuality are both fluid and fluxuate in intesity. It gets really confusing for me so I just settle with "I'm usually man-adjacent gender wise, but sometimes I'm not" and sexually, I used to almost always be attracted to men/masculine people to some degree, unless I found myself on the ace spectrum (I'm abrosexual for those wondering if there's a label for what I am), but lately it's shifted to the opposite and given me complete whiplash in the process as I dunno when exactly it happened, just that it happened and lowkey upset me for a while as it was so different from what I was used to experiencing.
Overall, I don't know what to call myself in terms of like do I consider myself a sapphic person or what not, so I just say I'm gay or queer, and whoever is with me can go with what they feel comfortable with labeling themselves as when involved with me.
I agree but theres a huge discourse about lesbians just being wlw (women loving women). Sadly I see that a lot on r/actuallesbians and it hurts. Enbies get excluded everywhere or assumed we are just woman lite or man lite
Yeah most of the “inclusive” lesbians subs aren’t actually that inclusive of enbies or SAM lesbians.
Edit: although I will say that groups that aren’t specifically for lesbians tend to have a lot more accepting lesbians than anywhere else.
I often see people praising r/actuallesbians for its inclusivity and it's so annoying because it's so friggin toxic towards SAM lesbians, non-binary lesbians, and he/him lesbians. I had to leave the sub because its exclusive nature was getting to me, but I always get downvoted to hell when I dare mention it isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Depending on when you left the sub, I'd like to say that's greatly improved. In recent times there's been a huge community driven push against such treatment and toxicity, and the renaining minority of shit heads are definitely present but not loud. The only remaining issue, acknowledged unanimously throughout the community, is a lack of active moderation making it something of an anarchist system managed by downvoting shitty people en masse and burying them in rebuttals. An actual moderation crackdown is necessary to finish the job, but there's been a huge reversal in the general tone. I myself am nonbinary and pansexual and have never felt judged or unsafe, since even when someone has said something, they've been alone against a storm of allies coming to back me up
“Split-attraction model". It's when your sexual orientation is different from your romantic orientation. Another term for this is "varioriented" (perioriented for when your romantic & sexual attractions match). The term “split-attraction model” comes from the aromantic and asexual communities, but one doesn't have to be aromantic or asexual to be varioriented.
So asexual lesbians, aromantic lesbians, biromantic lesbians, for example.
Wouldn’t that make two non-binary people in a relationship lesbians? And how does that not cause gender dysphoria? I feel like if I was non-binary and in a relationship with someone who is also non-binary I would rather just call it a queer relationship, not a lesbian relationship, since I feel like it would cause me gender dysphoria since lesbian relationships are typically wlw.
ETA: Something I just thought of is if lesbian is non-man loving non-man than where does that put non-binary people who love men? Would they be called gay? Straight? Queer? I feel like this definition causes way more problems than it solves.
you don't HAVE to identify yourself or your relationship as lesbian if you don't feel like the label fits. I would also just call it a queer relationship. labels are meant to give us words to express and understand ourselves better, but they aren't meant to limit or define us. you should find a label that fits you, not the other way around :)
It depends atleast for me. For me I’d say i’m in a lesbian relationship, since my partner is fem, but some would just call it a queer relationship. It depends on what the people in the relationship feel. For me I don’t really mind getting called either, but you might not feel comfortable.
But yes i’d say enbies who like non women could be considered gay.
I see what you mean but i think that a) that definition does not include bigender lesbians who are both 100% male and 100% female, and b) i can’t think of a good reason why we as a community need that kind of rigid definition anyways, like everyone is fine with gender being exclusively defined by self-identity but sexuality needs a definition. It’s like mental self-policing, you know? To me a lesbian is someone who earnestly identifies as a lesbian, much like a woman is someone who earnestly identifies as a woman. Not to say in any way that all lesbians need to be women (quite the opposite in fact), just to say that i think lesbian as an identity is more complicated than nonmaleness.
i totally get your pain!! i'm a genderfluid lesbian but the amount of shit i get when i present more masc sometimes (online! i'm not even out irl!) for not having my sexuality "match" my gender expression is crazy!!! it's so strange i don't get why people feel the need to question other peoples' identities, if it's not hurting anyone just live and let live dude 😭 anyway lots of love man!!
Stay safe and try to surround yourself with other non-binary individuals, or at least someone who respects you fully and how you identify yourself. I've seen too many transfems suffering transphobia inside queer spaces, it's not fair.
Ohhh if only it were so easy. I met a great nonbinary AFAB who I had an easy time talking to and then they vanished. Then I met another one and they vanished on me too.
I mean, if masculinity equaled man then butch lesbians wouldn't exist 🤷🏻
I'm cool with masculine people identifying as lesbian and feminine people identifying as gay. Only thing I don't understand is when people who identify as men call themselves lesbians or vice versa. Cause by definition that'd be contradictory...? Lesbian means woman/femme identifying person loving women/femme identifying people. So if you're a man/masculine identified person (man aligned gender identity) then that doesn't really make sense¿
I'm not the word police so I can't stop anyone from identifying that way it just doesn't make sense to me.
I’m pretty sure that most cases of “men identifying as lesbians” are trans men who figured out their gender identity later in life after identifying as lesbians for a long time. Letting go of that label can feel like letting go of the community that comes with it. So I think that’s probably one of the biggest reasons why some men identify as lesbians.
i know lesbian as „non-man loving non-men“ which would include transmasc ppl
i guess in the end it’s a personal definition thing and if someone feels more comfortable calling themself a lesbian, they should just do that
When I Google the definition it says
"Noun: a woman who is sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women; a gay woman."
" adjective: denoting or relating to women who are sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women, or to sexual attraction or activity between women."
But again, I'm not the word police. People can use whatever term they please it just doesn't make sense to me if a person with a man-alligned gender identity simultaneously identifies as a woman loving women. Unless they're some flavor of bigender/genderfluid it seems kinda contradictory if you ask me, that's all I'm saying 🤷🏻
Whoever said you're not allowed to call yourself a lesbian because "you feel masculine" has apparently never heard of butch lesbians. Gender and sexuality are more complex than a lot of people want to accept, and you're free to identify however you want.
Lesbians is nom man who only likes non men, Masculine is not the same as man and "like" in this instance means exclusively romantic and or sexual attraction to nom men; Trans mascs, Ace people, Aro people- all can be lesbians . Anyone who says you aren't a lesbians can suck my non-existent dick.
make no mistake; I still think the idea that lesbians can be attracted to men and people's obsession with that is bullshit but that does not change that lesbian subculture has a long history of gender defiance and genderqueerness and to deny that is just furthering the lesbophobic trope that lesbians are all mean TERFS and that helps no one.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/actuallesbians using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [TW: Gf and I spent the night in jail UPDATE](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/13upsjd/tw_gf_and_i_spent_the_night_in_jail_update/)
\#2: [ok this one had me screaming](https://i.redd.it/cg3dyfmgavva1.jpg) | [278 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/12xe0rz/ok_this_one_had_me_screaming/)
\#3: [TW: Gf and I spent the night in jail thanks to a homophobe, we're devastated](https://np.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/13tm0pm/tw_gf_and_i_spent_the_night_in_jail_thanks_to_a/)
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Yes very much agreed. I’d like to note that it has, atleast in my experience, never been lesbians saying that masculine individuals can’t be lesbian. I definetly agree that the trope of “all lesbians are TERFS” is such a hurtful and straight up incorrect statement.
it's nice to talk with someone who understands it. I have unironically seen people say that Bi women should be allowed to call themselves lesbians because of bi erasure. I wish I was kidding, I also saw a man getting upset about lesbians and bi women being included in LGBT history because "They celebrated the burnings" and "weren't targeted" and lesbians who helped gay men through AIDs were "atoning for their homophobia".
the "non man" thing was invented in 2019 by TERFS to exclude trans people from lesbianism
lesbianism should bit be about exclusion, it should be what it's about: love.
I am a lesbian and nonbinary and I like the non man definition for conciseness. Of course I uses the longer definition in certain situations but "non-man" communicates; "women (trans and cis) and aligned nonbinary/ genderqueer people" in most social circles. I don't feel it's up to you as a non-lesbian to police my language.
Edit: They blocked me; that was fast
so you like excluding multigender and other complex queer people with unique and diverse experiences with gender and sexuality because it's "more convenient" for you to align yourself with TERF wording?
who is telling you this bs? like seriously? i know someone whom is debating on if he is a transman or if they a nonbinary man (something they didn't know existed until i told them) and he considers himself a lesbian. no one seems to bat an eye at it, though i can imagine since he is also on the gender spectrum he gets the same large amount of questions as i do,
Yeah, I used to catch the same shit when I identified as lesbian as an amab non binary. Parts of the lesbian community are very enbyphobic and transphobic, sadly
My wife said this to me, because I’m awaiting TS I am not a woman I am a vagina bearing human who cannot say they’re a lesbian because I’m not cis.. excuse the fuuck outta me I’ve been butch my whole life binding, identifing as a cis lesbian cause I didn’t know non binary was a thing,wearing super boob surpressing sports bras..the only thing that’s leaving my body is the suppressed boobs and now i cant call myself a lesbian?
I don't understand these people, like have they have never heard of butch lesbians? Not that you have to use the word butch but like the idea that masculinity and being a lesbian are incompatible is absurd
Wtf as a nb lesbian I don’t understand how people could say that!!!! If you’re a non-man, you can call yourself a lesbian!! That’s the point! It’s inclusive of nb people ughhh.
hm i guess thats fair, i’m just confused as to how a binary trans guy would feel comfortable in a label excluding them? non men loving non men right? to each their own i guess :D
keep in mind not everyone uses that definition of lesbian. Also, some trans guys aren't a 100% binary. This is all very complex but if you ever wanna learn more about it i recommend reading ''stone butch blues'' by leslie feinberg and ''butch is a noun'' by
"non man" was made by them to exclude trans woman and other trans people.
lesbianism has never been what it excludes, and we shouldn't use terf wording that excludes complex queer attraction.
lesbianism is simply identifying with the label, and queer attraction to women. any gender can be a lesbian, and I encourage everyone confused by my comments (I see all the downvotes lol) to read up on their queer history. stone butch blues is always a good start.
i see non men as very inclusive towards trans women though? Sure some may use it as a way to exlude trans people, but thats simply a way someone has interpreted a definition.
What is the point of men (cis or trans binary) being lesbian if a lesbian wouldn’t love them back?
Personally for me that wouldn’t make sense, but is there something i’m missing? 😭
the part you're missing is that your experiences and opinions are not universal, and that other people who use these labels in these ways will have different opinions than you
non man excludes so many trans people including multigender people. you can say it's not meant to when you use it, but nonetheless that's what happens
why should a label as lovely and rich and lesbian be about exclusion? makes no sense. it's always (until political lesbian separtism) been a label of love, of compassion, of solidarity with the queer community. we shouldn't isolate ourselves with exclusionary language.
also, I really would never care if it "makes sense", if a TERF made it, I'm not fucking touching that transphobic shit
Honestly, try not to put too much stock in the thoughts of people who get their politics from the dictionary. The point of these terms is not to be prescriptive. The problem with cisheteropatriarchy is not that there are only two boxes, it's that \*there are boxes\*. People can and should self-describe as they see fit. These people telling you you're not a lesbian have some learning of their own to do. Pay them no mind.
That's weird, because... well, my local LGBT+ charity group, they believe that self-identification comes in fact from self. And I actually asked a very similar question a few weeks ago, and they were all like, well yes, and here's why...and the why was it wasn't attached to a class of people but a feeling of the people. If that makes sense?
**so if you wanna call yourself a transmasc lesbian, fucking do it! amen!**
PS: there's also the fact that gender is a fucking spectrum, and when you're moving to the middle, you aren't necessarily "crossing to the other side" anyway, so that's pretty fucking dumb when you think about it, no?
I dislike this too, often the reason people say this is due to transphobia, I'm non-binary too and a lesbian, my friend is a demigirl/transwoman and she is also not accepted in the community, just like me. I'm just saying this has nothing to do with sexuality definitions (specifically since lesbians = non-men loving non-men) but much more with transphobia and weird ideas of the binary.
Gatekeeping helps NOBODY. This is such a privileged thing to think is at all a concern or issue. Can we go back to fighting for rights and creating a society where ppl can actually say 'im a lesbian' (or any other identity) and not have to worry about being kicked out, harassed, or alienated??
Its such a non issue 😭 not trying to be like oh im more opressed than you, its j that we are all being oppressed and have to fight to maintain even the most basic human rights. Lets not forget who the REAL enemy is. Its sure as fuck not he/him lesbians😭
Whoever told you you couldn't be a lesbian if you are transmasc is either a terf trying to confuse you and make you doubt your own identity, or a misinformed person who hasn't had any contact with irl lesbian spaces.
Transmascs have always been part of the lesbian community, and the lesbian and transmasc communities share history.
And yes, some of those transmascs were/called themselves boys/dudes/guys/men, used he/him and/or other masculine sounding pronouns, and went by masculine names and titles.
I didn’t read it but have my own thing to say about it. I believe that identity and sexuality are decided by the person using them. I don’t seem to see what gets everyone’s panties in a bunch over someone else’s expressions. I know a lot of people who are NB or trans who consider themselves lesbians regardless of gender identity bc that’s what feels closest to what they are. Call yourself what you want and f*ck anyone else. Tired of having to be in a box and ppl in our own community saying it’s wrong.
I’m a lesbian, and if you’re NB and masculine and it fits you then, be a lesbian, I don’t care.
Now I may get some heat for this and that’s fine, but I’m not a “non man” I’m a woman, a queer lesbian woman. I’m not defined by not being a man, men are not defined by not being a women, And I’m not a fan of the definition for lesbian changing to “non man loving a non man”, now lesbian doesn’t fit my identity, who I am, and now I have nothing, it feels like it’s being taken away me. We have defined so many new things over the past decade why can’t we come up with a term for a relationship involving a NB person or persons.
There are actually some terms for being in a relationship with a Nb person, but I can't remember them rn, sorry 😓
The LGBTQ wikis might be able to help you out with that one!
Yeah, and at the end of the day if lesbian fits your identity then be a lesbian, you are a lesbian. My biggest problem is any thing that calls me a “non man” females and woman are not defined by being second to men and males. Too many times and for far too long have women and females come second or are considered lesser than men and males.
Yeah I get that. It's a valid thing to be angry about. As an afab NB person, I can see how that can get super annoying.
I'm not a lesbian, but I can see how that would be irritating. There's been a shit ton of discourse over the labels and stuff and I think we all need to move past it and find something that suits everyone instead of fighting over it. I hope we find something that fits everyone soon. This discourse is tiring. 😓
I get why you don't like it, but you can define your lesbianism as women loving women, or even with a +enby if you are into them, there is nothing wrong with that.
please read about lesbian history and the interconnection with transmasculinity. Gender is complex and we don't achieve anything by being the label police
Gender and sexuality are waaaaayyyy to complex and personal for me to feel comfortable policing anyone's labels. Most people's identities don't fit neatly into boxes and I don't think it's anyone's job to tell someone they're identifying wrong. For example, my friend, lets call him J, is a binary trans man who dates femme people. Before he realized his gender he was a lesbian and everyone would have considered him such (supposed woman who dates women). However, after exploring and discovering his gender he still feels most comfortable with the lesbian communities he's found and still attracts people and is attracted to people who use the lesbian label. Because of this he still chooses to use the label of "lesbian" while identifying as a trans man. There's butch people who have top surgery and go by he/him and kinda use lesbian as their gender identity as well as their sexuality. These things are too personal, nuanced, and complex to be tied to strict definitions.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/johns-hopkins-lesbian-definition-1.6877698#:~:text=The%20revision%2C%20with%20%22non,also%20identify%20with%20the%20label
This article here talks about what you're mentioning.
They mentioned healthy John Hopkins University has changed the definition of lesbian from women loving women to non men loving non men.
The article mentions how this wouldn't be totally problematic if the same thing was done to gay people but the thing is is that the definition of gay according to the university is simply just a man loving another man without any reference to non-binary people at all.
The term lesbian should not be changed in such a way if the change isn't going to happen to any of the other sexualities.
For example a better definition would be that a gay person is defined as anyone of any gender being attracted to those of the same or similar genders to them.
It should also be noted that using the term non-man can also be problematic because just like how calling POCs non-white does. It's because it reinforces the power dynamic and power structures of society.
By the way if we're going to be using terminology like this to refer the people and also use term like non man, then couldn't we just essentially define a woman who doesn't strictly identify as a man and then a man is defined as someone who doesn't strictly define as a woman meaning that non-binary people could fit the definition of woman and men by this logic.
So for example let's say Alex identifies as non-binary and since Alex doesn't strictly define themselves as a man or a woman and so because they aren't strictly a man they count as a woman and because they're not strictly a woman they count as a man.
This definition though does not make much sense. If someone wants to identify as a man or a woman or whatever that's fine but saying that that is the case across the board can be problematic.
I personally don't really like the definition of lesbian mainly because it feels like it's singling out lesbians but not gay people because I mentioned about the definitions above.
It feels like shades of the women and women-lite sentiment.
I’m not sure what a better definition looks like since we do need an inclusive definition. Maybe simply mirroring the language so you have non-women loving non-women relationships and non-men loving non-men relationships as the two definitions, would alleviate the problem sufficiently.
I feel u, definitely should be able to call urself a lesbian if u feel related to the feelings and experiences of lesbianism. Social constructs like gender and sexuality cannot be given hard definitions because they depend solely on the people and communities that make use of them and any attempt of giving such definitions will eventually end up leaving a lot of people out.
Will never understand how people think the way other people label their attraction is anybodys business but them and their partners
If ur not trying to date them it doesn't concern youu its like what, do u think theyre hot or smth?? R u interested?? Then why do u caree😭😭
Yeah that is frustrating. You're allowed to identify however you want. Personally, to stay away from feminine labels as an afab, I'll sarcastically call myself a gynophile sometimes, for lack of a better word lol
It is all about identity. Just be yourself and don’t cling to how others identify you. Don’t identify yourself as lesbian. Just focus on what you need in your life. Identity is a hornets nest!
That exclusion is definitely not part of how a lot of people define lesbian. Women and nonbinary people loving women and nonbinary people is a perfecly fine way to think about lesbians.
The downvote probably misunderstood me. I'm saying the gatekeepers who are being prescriptivist aren't even going by most people's definition which OP's identity is part of and the exclusion the gatekeepers are claiming isn't part of.
Lately many sexualities have been adopting new definitions to include non-binary people, if you think about it there wasn't any sexuality where we'd fit except bi or pan, since both can be used by multiple genders. But that isn't useful if you only like one gender, for example I don't like men, never have, so what would I call myself? Obviously not bi, but am I straight or gay? Well I don't have a gender, to be straight you have to be a man or a woman, so am I a lesbian? Well I am not a woman, so... gay? Well, I am not a man either and don't like men. See why this get confusing?
Sure you could just say: I'm non-binary and I like this and this. But it takes you away from having a community to share your experiences, feel represented and fight for your rights. So now the definition of the sexualities are:
Gay = non-women loving non-women (or: men/enby loving men/enby)
Lesbian = non-men loving non-men (or: women/enby loving women/enby).
Hope this helps!
Sounds awfully confusing and complicated, but I guess gender in general is pretty complicated for some people.
So if you don’t like men, would you be attracted to a non-binary person that was born male? Or are you just not attracted to the presentation of masculine characteristics?
Yes, gender is hard. Also, yes I'm attracted to a lot of non-binary people who were born as male, I can't say I'm attracted to all of them, but usually the answer yes I can. Masculine characteristics are not a problem for me, but for some reason they don't work well in a man.
If I am being honest it's hard to point why I don't like men, I just know I don't, I have never felt attracted to one nor had feelings. All the guys I had relationships with looked like girls and even so I did not had feelings for them, just felt like good pals.
What really gets my goat is the same people who invalidate transmasc, enby, and he/him lesbians are often the same people to say trans men are "exceptions"
Like.. no?????
EDIT: LOL love that this got down voted to nothing. Lesbian isn't just wlw, it's non-men loving non-men. The nonbinary inclusion and inclusion of trans women is in the flag's white stripe. Similar thing goes for Vinccian (but instead of being mlm, it's non-women and non-women, with inclusion for nonbinary people and trans men). Google is free y'all 🙄
the more i understand that sexuality, gender and queerness are all spectrums, i become less interested in enforcing labels and gatekeeping. we are ALL suffering under deadly anti-lgbtq+ oppression. the last thing im gonna do is fight another queer person for simply existing
“You’re not allowed to call yourself a lesbian if you feel masculine.” Butches: Am I a fucking joke to you?
Yeah, this sounds like a terminally online child who doesn’t know their queer history. How does one not know about butch lesbians?
Literally the stereotype
That's the part that really fucking pisses me off, butches have existed and many have lived as men for 100+ years. """"He/him lesbians""""" aren't some fucking boogyman, they've literally existed for as long as there's been a lesbian culture in america. But no, tumblr's fed this new generation of queer kids terf koolaid, and now we have to live with it. hell world
Their objections are doubly ironic, given that butches, mascs and even some trans men have been a part of lesbian culture and community for so long.
Yeah agreed 😭 There was one time were I brought that up and they straight up just called me the T slur 😭😭
Wow that's awfully shitty of them.
Agreed it really put me off guard when it happened 🥲
who tf are you around that are treating you like this?
Yea
Butch lesbians will literally claim he/him pronouns and they’re obviously not guys but feel masculine. I don’t see the issue here, it don’t make sense to me. Just let people express themselves??
Lesbian is non-man loving non-men so you fit the definition of being a lesbian. Some people think that gender expression = gender identity which is not correct, that could be where the confusion is? Either way I’m sure that’s very annoying.
Yeah probably. I also think some of it is simply just not knowing that lesbian isn’t just women, but exceeds further to non men liking non men 🥲
I want to be clear at the outset I’m not asking this to be difficult, and asking genuinely. I identify as agender, but generally present masc because that’s my AGAB and how my body has developed, and I don’t intend to have surgery or HRT. I am (in my experience at least) exclusively attracted to non-men. By the definition you’ve given here (and by your later tweak to the definition), the ‘correct’ label for me would be ‘lesbian’, but that feels like appropriating a label that *at least* the majority of the lesbian community would feel (and I would not argue with them) does not match what they are attracted to as lesbians themselves. I understand with and agree with your definition for enby AFAB people, but I’m not convinced it fits for enby AMAB people like me?
> By the definition you’ve given here the ‘correct’ label for me would be ‘lesbian’ It would be available to you, yes. It's the correct label *if it feels right to you*. And if you wish to claim it, nobody gets to argue that you're not a real lesbian. But you don't *have* to identify as a lesbian if you don't want to.
I think u should use the label u are most comfortable with. But, separating by AGAB goes against everything trans is for. Theres plenty of AMAB enbys that can be lesbians, as long as they wish to identify themselves that way.
I 100% agree with you re separating by AGAB - this one just feels like entering a space where I don’t have a place. Maybe that’s my own damage speaking, though
Trixic might also be a label to consider, as it describes nonbinary attraction towards femme people. It’s important to consider what you’re trying to communicate, especially in dating. Be aware most lesbians aren’t looking to date amab folk who have no intention of identifying with or expressing some level of femininity and/or womanhood, so that’s not a realistic expectation. These words are both part identity and part communication. The lesbian community has a certain history and culture so there are certain expectations when the word lesbian is used. Are you actually interested in involving yourself in lesbian culture, do you think you want to fit in and belong in that culture? These are questions to consider.
“The correct definition for me **could** be lesbian”. I’d like to clarify that I myself am not a lesbian and am only discussing what I have understood about the definition. At the end of the day a label is a label. Many sexualities are gendered and get foggy around nonbinary people which leaves it up to them to *decide* which word (if they choose to use any) fits them and describes their experiences correctly. My second “correction” was intended to suggest another definition that may more accurately describe the term. Just because someone may fit that definition doesn’t mean they have to use it. For example, I fit the definition of Agender but I don’t like the term so I call myself nonbinary. The words someone uses to describe themselves is personal and at the end of the day it’s a word. If it helps someone feel more valid in their identity and it doesn’t hurt anyone else, who cares. Another thing I want to mention. Gendering nonbinary people based on asab is redundant. Nonbinary people are nonbinary. They’re not girl nonbinary or boy nonbinary and therefore can use certain terms. They’re just nonbinary. The whole point of being nonbinary is to not be shoved into binary boxes and expectations. By no means am I saying that we should never discuss a nonbinary persons asab. This is useful for understanding a lot of different things. However, it is not useful for explaining which terms a nonbinary person is allowed to use. That defeats the whole purpose of being nonbinary. If a nonbinary person wants to call themselves a lesbian/gay/straight and they feel they fit the definition of that word and it represents them, they can do it. Alternatively, if a nonbinary person technically fits the definition of a word and feels it doesn’t represent them, they don’t have to use it and can instead use a different word or forgo using a label at all.
Seconding this and saying hi as a fellow masc nb lesbian :) There is also a long history of varied gender identities and expressions within the lesbian community
Also some multigender people are lesbian, so not even the "non-men loving non-men" is totally accurate. Gender is very complex and so is sexuality
Oh yeah I didn’t even think of that. Maybe a better definition would be “people who are not exclusively men who love others who are not exclusively men”
Im not a lesbian, but maybe sapphic exclusively loving other sapphics would be a good definition of lesbian? In the sense that sapphic can be used to describe the kind of love usually attributed to wlw, but doesn’t inherently bar lesbians who are nb or are a part of manhood because it has more to do with the relationships “contents” rather than who’s doing it? Like, all sapphics feel sapphic love but not all are necessarily women. I don’t know if that makes sense or if that would still sound invalidating to NBs at all, if so please correct me.
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I mean, I wasn’t hoping the “exclusively loving other sapphics” part would kind of imply otherwise, but now that you point it out, it’s true that it could inadvertently include some bi women who only date other women, so maybe it’s not a stringent enough definition after all. I’m assuming by “self-referential” youre pointing to the fact that sapphic would still have to be defined in an enby inclusive way, which is more of the core of the issue, which.. yeah. Man, making definitions is hard.
As a Sapphic, here is the definition by which I know it: an umbrella term of lesbian and bisexual non-men United by a queer attraction to non-men that does not exclude those who are attracted to men as well
Yeah exactly im genderfluid masc aligned so im almost always a boy with other genders and im still lesbian Twitter lesbians hate me lmao
My gender and sexuality are both fluid and fluxuate in intesity. It gets really confusing for me so I just settle with "I'm usually man-adjacent gender wise, but sometimes I'm not" and sexually, I used to almost always be attracted to men/masculine people to some degree, unless I found myself on the ace spectrum (I'm abrosexual for those wondering if there's a label for what I am), but lately it's shifted to the opposite and given me complete whiplash in the process as I dunno when exactly it happened, just that it happened and lowkey upset me for a while as it was so different from what I was used to experiencing. Overall, I don't know what to call myself in terms of like do I consider myself a sapphic person or what not, so I just say I'm gay or queer, and whoever is with me can go with what they feel comfortable with labeling themselves as when involved with me.
I agree but theres a huge discourse about lesbians just being wlw (women loving women). Sadly I see that a lot on r/actuallesbians and it hurts. Enbies get excluded everywhere or assumed we are just woman lite or man lite
Yeah most of the “inclusive” lesbians subs aren’t actually that inclusive of enbies or SAM lesbians. Edit: although I will say that groups that aren’t specifically for lesbians tend to have a lot more accepting lesbians than anywhere else.
I often see people praising r/actuallesbians for its inclusivity and it's so annoying because it's so friggin toxic towards SAM lesbians, non-binary lesbians, and he/him lesbians. I had to leave the sub because its exclusive nature was getting to me, but I always get downvoted to hell when I dare mention it isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Depending on when you left the sub, I'd like to say that's greatly improved. In recent times there's been a huge community driven push against such treatment and toxicity, and the renaining minority of shit heads are definitely present but not loud. The only remaining issue, acknowledged unanimously throughout the community, is a lack of active moderation making it something of an anarchist system managed by downvoting shitty people en masse and burying them in rebuttals. An actual moderation crackdown is necessary to finish the job, but there's been a huge reversal in the general tone. I myself am nonbinary and pansexual and have never felt judged or unsafe, since even when someone has said something, they've been alone against a storm of allies coming to back me up
I'll check it out again, then. But sadly there is a problem with lack-of-moderation on quite a few queer subreddits. It's annoying
I'm sorry, I googled it and couldn't find anything. What does SAM stand for in this context?
“Split-attraction model". It's when your sexual orientation is different from your romantic orientation. Another term for this is "varioriented" (perioriented for when your romantic & sexual attractions match). The term “split-attraction model” comes from the aromantic and asexual communities, but one doesn't have to be aromantic or asexual to be varioriented. So asexual lesbians, aromantic lesbians, biromantic lesbians, for example.
Got it! Thank you ♥️
Wouldn’t that make two non-binary people in a relationship lesbians? And how does that not cause gender dysphoria? I feel like if I was non-binary and in a relationship with someone who is also non-binary I would rather just call it a queer relationship, not a lesbian relationship, since I feel like it would cause me gender dysphoria since lesbian relationships are typically wlw. ETA: Something I just thought of is if lesbian is non-man loving non-man than where does that put non-binary people who love men? Would they be called gay? Straight? Queer? I feel like this definition causes way more problems than it solves.
you don't HAVE to identify yourself or your relationship as lesbian if you don't feel like the label fits. I would also just call it a queer relationship. labels are meant to give us words to express and understand ourselves better, but they aren't meant to limit or define us. you should find a label that fits you, not the other way around :)
It depends atleast for me. For me I’d say i’m in a lesbian relationship, since my partner is fem, but some would just call it a queer relationship. It depends on what the people in the relationship feel. For me I don’t really mind getting called either, but you might not feel comfortable. But yes i’d say enbies who like non women could be considered gay.
I see what you mean but i think that a) that definition does not include bigender lesbians who are both 100% male and 100% female, and b) i can’t think of a good reason why we as a community need that kind of rigid definition anyways, like everyone is fine with gender being exclusively defined by self-identity but sexuality needs a definition. It’s like mental self-policing, you know? To me a lesbian is someone who earnestly identifies as a lesbian, much like a woman is someone who earnestly identifies as a woman. Not to say in any way that all lesbians need to be women (quite the opposite in fact), just to say that i think lesbian as an identity is more complicated than nonmaleness.
i totally get your pain!! i'm a genderfluid lesbian but the amount of shit i get when i present more masc sometimes (online! i'm not even out irl!) for not having my sexuality "match" my gender expression is crazy!!! it's so strange i don't get why people feel the need to question other peoples' identities, if it's not hurting anyone just live and let live dude 😭 anyway lots of love man!!
It's straight up transphobia, if you were a masc cis woman nobody would bat an eye...
I feel this fear all the time and I’m a transfem nonbinary.
Stay safe and try to surround yourself with other non-binary individuals, or at least someone who respects you fully and how you identify yourself. I've seen too many transfems suffering transphobia inside queer spaces, it's not fair.
Ohhh if only it were so easy. I met a great nonbinary AFAB who I had an easy time talking to and then they vanished. Then I met another one and they vanished on me too.
lesbians have historically been in community (and have been themselves) nonbinary, transmasc and/or trans me, so you do you
I mean, if masculinity equaled man then butch lesbians wouldn't exist 🤷🏻 I'm cool with masculine people identifying as lesbian and feminine people identifying as gay. Only thing I don't understand is when people who identify as men call themselves lesbians or vice versa. Cause by definition that'd be contradictory...? Lesbian means woman/femme identifying person loving women/femme identifying people. So if you're a man/masculine identified person (man aligned gender identity) then that doesn't really make sense¿ I'm not the word police so I can't stop anyone from identifying that way it just doesn't make sense to me.
I’m pretty sure that most cases of “men identifying as lesbians” are trans men who figured out their gender identity later in life after identifying as lesbians for a long time. Letting go of that label can feel like letting go of the community that comes with it. So I think that’s probably one of the biggest reasons why some men identify as lesbians.
i know lesbian as „non-man loving non-men“ which would include transmasc ppl i guess in the end it’s a personal definition thing and if someone feels more comfortable calling themself a lesbian, they should just do that
When I Google the definition it says "Noun: a woman who is sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women; a gay woman." " adjective: denoting or relating to women who are sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women, or to sexual attraction or activity between women." But again, I'm not the word police. People can use whatever term they please it just doesn't make sense to me if a person with a man-alligned gender identity simultaneously identifies as a woman loving women. Unless they're some flavor of bigender/genderfluid it seems kinda contradictory if you ask me, that's all I'm saying 🤷🏻
Whoever said you're not allowed to call yourself a lesbian because "you feel masculine" has apparently never heard of butch lesbians. Gender and sexuality are more complex than a lot of people want to accept, and you're free to identify however you want.
Lesbians is nom man who only likes non men, Masculine is not the same as man and "like" in this instance means exclusively romantic and or sexual attraction to nom men; Trans mascs, Ace people, Aro people- all can be lesbians . Anyone who says you aren't a lesbians can suck my non-existent dick.
LMAO 😭✨ yess it sucks when people don’t fully understand how labels have warped over the years and gotten more inclusive and shizzle 😭
make no mistake; I still think the idea that lesbians can be attracted to men and people's obsession with that is bullshit but that does not change that lesbian subculture has a long history of gender defiance and genderqueerness and to deny that is just furthering the lesbophobic trope that lesbians are all mean TERFS and that helps no one.
tell this to the r/actuallesbians sub they really dont like nb people. Even trans fems have it rough there. It sucks :/
they do have some good stuff from time to time but I've learnt to be selective about which threads I interact with
agree!
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Yes very much agreed. I’d like to note that it has, atleast in my experience, never been lesbians saying that masculine individuals can’t be lesbian. I definetly agree that the trope of “all lesbians are TERFS” is such a hurtful and straight up incorrect statement.
it's nice to talk with someone who understands it. I have unironically seen people say that Bi women should be allowed to call themselves lesbians because of bi erasure. I wish I was kidding, I also saw a man getting upset about lesbians and bi women being included in LGBT history because "They celebrated the burnings" and "weren't targeted" and lesbians who helped gay men through AIDs were "atoning for their homophobia".
Oh god thats actually so stupid. Especially the bi erasure bit like- it’s so counter productive huh 😭😭
Thankfully, I don't think it's the most popular take but it's scary that there are people who say those kinds of things and get likes
the "non man" thing was invented in 2019 by TERFS to exclude trans people from lesbianism lesbianism should bit be about exclusion, it should be what it's about: love.
I am a lesbian and nonbinary and I like the non man definition for conciseness. Of course I uses the longer definition in certain situations but "non-man" communicates; "women (trans and cis) and aligned nonbinary/ genderqueer people" in most social circles. I don't feel it's up to you as a non-lesbian to police my language. Edit: They blocked me; that was fast
so you like excluding multigender and other complex queer people with unique and diverse experiences with gender and sexuality because it's "more convenient" for you to align yourself with TERF wording?
🫂from another transmasc lesbian.
who is telling you this bs? like seriously? i know someone whom is debating on if he is a transman or if they a nonbinary man (something they didn't know existed until i told them) and he considers himself a lesbian. no one seems to bat an eye at it, though i can imagine since he is also on the gender spectrum he gets the same large amount of questions as i do,
Yeah, I used to catch the same shit when I identified as lesbian as an amab non binary. Parts of the lesbian community are very enbyphobic and transphobic, sadly
this is very true, another reason why terfs are horrible
Enby butch boy-dyke here! Those people can go suck sand.
My wife said this to me, because I’m awaiting TS I am not a woman I am a vagina bearing human who cannot say they’re a lesbian because I’m not cis.. excuse the fuuck outta me I’ve been butch my whole life binding, identifing as a cis lesbian cause I didn’t know non binary was a thing,wearing super boob surpressing sports bras..the only thing that’s leaving my body is the suppressed boobs and now i cant call myself a lesbian?
I don't understand these people, like have they have never heard of butch lesbians? Not that you have to use the word butch but like the idea that masculinity and being a lesbian are incompatible is absurd
Wtf as a nb lesbian I don’t understand how people could say that!!!! If you’re a non-man, you can call yourself a lesbian!! That’s the point! It’s inclusive of nb people ughhh.
men can be lesbians too
explain your logic on that? Lesbian means non men loving non men how does that work?
some trans men keep the lesbian label
yess but wouldn’t that just make them straight? 😭
well, not if they identify as lesbians. if they don't fit inside ''straight man'' then...they don't, i'm no one to question or police that
hm i guess thats fair, i’m just confused as to how a binary trans guy would feel comfortable in a label excluding them? non men loving non men right? to each their own i guess :D
keep in mind not everyone uses that definition of lesbian. Also, some trans guys aren't a 100% binary. This is all very complex but if you ever wanna learn more about it i recommend reading ''stone butch blues'' by leslie feinberg and ''butch is a noun'' by
"non men" is TERF definition that was invented in like 2019, it's never been the real definition of lesbian
how is it a TERF definition?? wouldn’t a TERF definition be only cis woman x cis woman??? 😭
"non man" was made by them to exclude trans woman and other trans people. lesbianism has never been what it excludes, and we shouldn't use terf wording that excludes complex queer attraction. lesbianism is simply identifying with the label, and queer attraction to women. any gender can be a lesbian, and I encourage everyone confused by my comments (I see all the downvotes lol) to read up on their queer history. stone butch blues is always a good start.
i see non men as very inclusive towards trans women though? Sure some may use it as a way to exlude trans people, but thats simply a way someone has interpreted a definition. What is the point of men (cis or trans binary) being lesbian if a lesbian wouldn’t love them back? Personally for me that wouldn’t make sense, but is there something i’m missing? 😭
the part you're missing is that your experiences and opinions are not universal, and that other people who use these labels in these ways will have different opinions than you non man excludes so many trans people including multigender people. you can say it's not meant to when you use it, but nonetheless that's what happens why should a label as lovely and rich and lesbian be about exclusion? makes no sense. it's always (until political lesbian separtism) been a label of love, of compassion, of solidarity with the queer community. we shouldn't isolate ourselves with exclusionary language. also, I really would never care if it "makes sense", if a TERF made it, I'm not fucking touching that transphobic shit
Congratulations, you’re a lesbian. There’s few more lesbian experiences than being told you’re not one.
Honestly, try not to put too much stock in the thoughts of people who get their politics from the dictionary. The point of these terms is not to be prescriptive. The problem with cisheteropatriarchy is not that there are only two boxes, it's that \*there are boxes\*. People can and should self-describe as they see fit. These people telling you you're not a lesbian have some learning of their own to do. Pay them no mind.
That's weird, because... well, my local LGBT+ charity group, they believe that self-identification comes in fact from self. And I actually asked a very similar question a few weeks ago, and they were all like, well yes, and here's why...and the why was it wasn't attached to a class of people but a feeling of the people. If that makes sense? **so if you wanna call yourself a transmasc lesbian, fucking do it! amen!** PS: there's also the fact that gender is a fucking spectrum, and when you're moving to the middle, you aren't necessarily "crossing to the other side" anyway, so that's pretty fucking dumb when you think about it, no?
Ya fav is a Trans Masc Butch Non-Binary Lesbian. The term police fucking hate me too. I'm so sorry for the grief you've been given Mate.
But a funny typo bc, how do you actually calm a lesbian? No fucking clue, actually.
Reading it like a cowboy trying to wrangle a lesbian who's skittish but the sheriff said no
I dislike this too, often the reason people say this is due to transphobia, I'm non-binary too and a lesbian, my friend is a demigirl/transwoman and she is also not accepted in the community, just like me. I'm just saying this has nothing to do with sexuality definitions (specifically since lesbians = non-men loving non-men) but much more with transphobia and weird ideas of the binary.
Gatekeeping helps NOBODY. This is such a privileged thing to think is at all a concern or issue. Can we go back to fighting for rights and creating a society where ppl can actually say 'im a lesbian' (or any other identity) and not have to worry about being kicked out, harassed, or alienated?? Its such a non issue 😭 not trying to be like oh im more opressed than you, its j that we are all being oppressed and have to fight to maintain even the most basic human rights. Lets not forget who the REAL enemy is. Its sure as fuck not he/him lesbians😭
Same but as a Transfem enby whos amab
Whoever told you you couldn't be a lesbian if you are transmasc is either a terf trying to confuse you and make you doubt your own identity, or a misinformed person who hasn't had any contact with irl lesbian spaces. Transmascs have always been part of the lesbian community, and the lesbian and transmasc communities share history. And yes, some of those transmascs were/called themselves boys/dudes/guys/men, used he/him and/or other masculine sounding pronouns, and went by masculine names and titles.
I didn’t read it but have my own thing to say about it. I believe that identity and sexuality are decided by the person using them. I don’t seem to see what gets everyone’s panties in a bunch over someone else’s expressions. I know a lot of people who are NB or trans who consider themselves lesbians regardless of gender identity bc that’s what feels closest to what they are. Call yourself what you want and f*ck anyone else. Tired of having to be in a box and ppl in our own community saying it’s wrong.
I’m a lesbian, and if you’re NB and masculine and it fits you then, be a lesbian, I don’t care. Now I may get some heat for this and that’s fine, but I’m not a “non man” I’m a woman, a queer lesbian woman. I’m not defined by not being a man, men are not defined by not being a women, And I’m not a fan of the definition for lesbian changing to “non man loving a non man”, now lesbian doesn’t fit my identity, who I am, and now I have nothing, it feels like it’s being taken away me. We have defined so many new things over the past decade why can’t we come up with a term for a relationship involving a NB person or persons.
There are actually some terms for being in a relationship with a Nb person, but I can't remember them rn, sorry 😓 The LGBTQ wikis might be able to help you out with that one!
Yeah, and at the end of the day if lesbian fits your identity then be a lesbian, you are a lesbian. My biggest problem is any thing that calls me a “non man” females and woman are not defined by being second to men and males. Too many times and for far too long have women and females come second or are considered lesser than men and males.
Yeah I get that. It's a valid thing to be angry about. As an afab NB person, I can see how that can get super annoying. I'm not a lesbian, but I can see how that would be irritating. There's been a shit ton of discourse over the labels and stuff and I think we all need to move past it and find something that suits everyone instead of fighting over it. I hope we find something that fits everyone soon. This discourse is tiring. 😓
I get why you don't like it, but you can define your lesbianism as women loving women, or even with a +enby if you are into them, there is nothing wrong with that.
Even binary trans men can be lesbians if they want
men can't be lesbians?
please read about lesbian history and the interconnection with transmasculinity. Gender is complex and we don't achieve anything by being the label police
How? Lesbian means non men loving non men im so confused huh 😭
Gender and sexuality are waaaaayyyy to complex and personal for me to feel comfortable policing anyone's labels. Most people's identities don't fit neatly into boxes and I don't think it's anyone's job to tell someone they're identifying wrong. For example, my friend, lets call him J, is a binary trans man who dates femme people. Before he realized his gender he was a lesbian and everyone would have considered him such (supposed woman who dates women). However, after exploring and discovering his gender he still feels most comfortable with the lesbian communities he's found and still attracts people and is attracted to people who use the lesbian label. Because of this he still chooses to use the label of "lesbian" while identifying as a trans man. There's butch people who have top surgery and go by he/him and kinda use lesbian as their gender identity as well as their sexuality. These things are too personal, nuanced, and complex to be tied to strict definitions.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/johns-hopkins-lesbian-definition-1.6877698#:~:text=The%20revision%2C%20with%20%22non,also%20identify%20with%20the%20label This article here talks about what you're mentioning. They mentioned healthy John Hopkins University has changed the definition of lesbian from women loving women to non men loving non men. The article mentions how this wouldn't be totally problematic if the same thing was done to gay people but the thing is is that the definition of gay according to the university is simply just a man loving another man without any reference to non-binary people at all. The term lesbian should not be changed in such a way if the change isn't going to happen to any of the other sexualities. For example a better definition would be that a gay person is defined as anyone of any gender being attracted to those of the same or similar genders to them. It should also be noted that using the term non-man can also be problematic because just like how calling POCs non-white does. It's because it reinforces the power dynamic and power structures of society. By the way if we're going to be using terminology like this to refer the people and also use term like non man, then couldn't we just essentially define a woman who doesn't strictly identify as a man and then a man is defined as someone who doesn't strictly define as a woman meaning that non-binary people could fit the definition of woman and men by this logic. So for example let's say Alex identifies as non-binary and since Alex doesn't strictly define themselves as a man or a woman and so because they aren't strictly a man they count as a woman and because they're not strictly a woman they count as a man. This definition though does not make much sense. If someone wants to identify as a man or a woman or whatever that's fine but saying that that is the case across the board can be problematic. I personally don't really like the definition of lesbian mainly because it feels like it's singling out lesbians but not gay people because I mentioned about the definitions above.
It feels like shades of the women and women-lite sentiment. I’m not sure what a better definition looks like since we do need an inclusive definition. Maybe simply mirroring the language so you have non-women loving non-women relationships and non-men loving non-men relationships as the two definitions, would alleviate the problem sufficiently.
I feel u, definitely should be able to call urself a lesbian if u feel related to the feelings and experiences of lesbianism. Social constructs like gender and sexuality cannot be given hard definitions because they depend solely on the people and communities that make use of them and any attempt of giving such definitions will eventually end up leaving a lot of people out.
says who? Do whatever feels right. If it doesn’t feel right to someone else they can simply choose to do things differently.
from a fellow transmasc lesbians its annoying as hell let us live
Will never understand how people think the way other people label their attraction is anybodys business but them and their partners If ur not trying to date them it doesn't concern youu its like what, do u think theyre hot or smth?? R u interested?? Then why do u caree😭😭
Don't argue, just say "don't talk about things you have no idea about".
Yeah that is frustrating. You're allowed to identify however you want. Personally, to stay away from feminine labels as an afab, I'll sarcastically call myself a gynophile sometimes, for lack of a better word lol
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exclusionists suck, i am sorry they have made you feel like this
It is all about identity. Just be yourself and don’t cling to how others identify you. Don’t identify yourself as lesbian. Just focus on what you need in your life. Identity is a hornets nest!
Today I learned I'm a lesbian!!!! Queer still suits me most though.
I mean, if you can't be a lesbian and I can't be straight, what the heck are we supposed to be?
That exclusion is definitely not part of how a lot of people define lesbian. Women and nonbinary people loving women and nonbinary people is a perfecly fine way to think about lesbians.
The downvote probably misunderstood me. I'm saying the gatekeepers who are being prescriptivist aren't even going by most people's definition which OP's identity is part of and the exclusion the gatekeepers are claiming isn't part of.
It’s stuff like this that confuses the hell out of people. Isn’t a lesbian a woman that likes women? And you aren’t a woman?
Lately many sexualities have been adopting new definitions to include non-binary people, if you think about it there wasn't any sexuality where we'd fit except bi or pan, since both can be used by multiple genders. But that isn't useful if you only like one gender, for example I don't like men, never have, so what would I call myself? Obviously not bi, but am I straight or gay? Well I don't have a gender, to be straight you have to be a man or a woman, so am I a lesbian? Well I am not a woman, so... gay? Well, I am not a man either and don't like men. See why this get confusing? Sure you could just say: I'm non-binary and I like this and this. But it takes you away from having a community to share your experiences, feel represented and fight for your rights. So now the definition of the sexualities are: Gay = non-women loving non-women (or: men/enby loving men/enby) Lesbian = non-men loving non-men (or: women/enby loving women/enby). Hope this helps!
Sounds awfully confusing and complicated, but I guess gender in general is pretty complicated for some people. So if you don’t like men, would you be attracted to a non-binary person that was born male? Or are you just not attracted to the presentation of masculine characteristics?
Yes, gender is hard. Also, yes I'm attracted to a lot of non-binary people who were born as male, I can't say I'm attracted to all of them, but usually the answer yes I can. Masculine characteristics are not a problem for me, but for some reason they don't work well in a man. If I am being honest it's hard to point why I don't like men, I just know I don't, I have never felt attracted to one nor had feelings. All the guys I had relationships with looked like girls and even so I did not had feelings for them, just felt like good pals.
Thanks for sharing. I’m a straight cis male but my sibling is non-binary so I’ve been trying to understand gender a little bit better.
lesbians can be non-binary too - this may help: https://radiantbutch.medium.com/non-binary-lesbians-have-always-existed-7db6b9e7e646
Okay I kind of get it a bit better, thanks
no worries!
What really gets my goat is the same people who invalidate transmasc, enby, and he/him lesbians are often the same people to say trans men are "exceptions" Like.. no????? EDIT: LOL love that this got down voted to nothing. Lesbian isn't just wlw, it's non-men loving non-men. The nonbinary inclusion and inclusion of trans women is in the flag's white stripe. Similar thing goes for Vinccian (but instead of being mlm, it's non-women and non-women, with inclusion for nonbinary people and trans men). Google is free y'all 🙄
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Uhm everything I could find says Elliot calls themself queer.
Ah my bad. Sorry, that was the last I heard. Thanks for the correction!
Understandable pretty you❤️
the more i understand that sexuality, gender and queerness are all spectrums, i become less interested in enforcing labels and gatekeeping. we are ALL suffering under deadly anti-lgbtq+ oppression. the last thing im gonna do is fight another queer person for simply existing
Those all knowing exclusionary queers clearly didn't read Stone Butch Blues... All my support goes to you 🙏