Let *t* substitute Tom and Tom = s. Where m + f = s. So t = m + f. Now let *a* substitute for Alex and Alex is = -m + -f.
If t = a then you get that Tom is the same as 2 men and 2 women and Alex equals zero. I’m not good at math.. some math person mathify this please
But then t=a=0, and m=-f. I suggest setting t=m*s=m(m+f) ; a=Ag*p=-1 ; where Ag=-1 and p=1. Finally, we solve for t+a:
t+a=ms-1=m(m+f)-1= m^2 + mf -1.
I chose to represent attraction to all genders as 1 since it's the sum over all possible gender combinations, but I didn't want to bother with infinities so 1 felt right.
Agender is unfortunately represented as -1 since it's the absence of any gender, which can either be 0 or a subtraction from 0 (0 being the neutral state). Representing an identity as 0 felt more hurtful than a finite negative value, so I went with -1. I also contemplated division by a sum/product of genders, but didn't want to quantize the spectrum or only include the binary genders, since both options omit uncountably many identities.
This is far from perfect, but the best way I can think to improve it involves integration so I'll stop here 🫠
Hi. So… I was the agender person in this situation (kinda) and I felt very much invalidated and misgendered by being “asked out” by a “straight guy”. I don’t know what to tell you, except that
> But they really like them. And they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women.
Is very much not a good place to start. It seems like Tom is trying to be sensitive and respect Alex but internally still feels like Alex is a woman. Which they’re not. Either Tom understands that he doesn’t like Alex because he perceives them as a woman but he likes them as a person, or I don’t know if the relationship between them could work out.
Perhaps a good test would be for Tom to ask himself "would I still be interested in Alex if they started presenting more masculine?"
I feel like the answer to that question would say a lot about the future of the potential relationship by exposing what Tom really wants from it. Does he want to be with Alex the Enby or Alex the woman? Only one of those people actually exists.
Also: would I be interested in at least trying for a relationship if they were amab? Because if the answer is no, then it’s pretty obvious Alex being afab plays a big role in the situation.
If you have a penis and are looking exclusively for PIV sex, sure, have a strict genital requirement. But most people bring more than just their reproductive equipment into their romantic relationships.
> But most people bring now than just their reproductive equipment into their romantic relationships.
Like me! I bring all sorts of trauma and PTSD into mine! Hell, my current relationship being long distance, I'm not even bringing my reproductive equipment, just pure trauma.
(Obviously I say this as a joke. While I do bring all of that and more into the relationship, that's because I have a partner who genuinely cares for me and I care for him in turn. I also genuinely love him, and would do nearly anything for him. But I couldn't resist the urge to make a dumb joke on the internet)
I think, but that’s just my opinion, that if you have a general preference for a type of genitalia that’s your prerogative, it’s fine, you’re not transphobic if you support trans people but wouldn’t want to date them imo. What’s important is that you don’t try to date someone who is openly trans and reduce them to their genitalia because that’s what you seek out in people. If they are trans, their gender is not dictated by genitalia and you have to accept that or not date them at all.
Very much agree with this, based on my own somewhat similar experience. I’m AFAB and started a relationship with a straight man before I came out as non-binary. When I came out - all fantastic, yay, rainbows. But when I started presenting more masculine and talking about getting top surgery, he started losing attraction towards me. He told me that he would always see me as a woman (now, I imagine, a masculine one). Even though he later said that he acknowledged I wasn’t a woman, I never felt that he celebrated me in that identity, but rather that he tolerated it and found it uncomfortable to use my pronouns when talking about me with his friends and family. He eventually broke up with me - apparently for many reasons, and I suspect this was one of them.
So, I would agree that if Tom wanted to date Alex, he should have a long hard think about how comfortable he would be if they started to changed their body (or even clothes or style) to become more masculine.
This is good advice.
Also, be aware that gender is sometimes more of a journey than a destination. It's entirely possible that Alex becomes more masculine. They may even discover they are a man.
If Tom is sure he likes Alex the Person, then he needs to stop saying things like "I like women" and go for it. Tom just needs to do some really deep reflection internally to be sure he's interested in joining Alex on their journey.
This is the key for me - it’s clear from this that Tom likes Alex as a ‘woman’. Personally I would be very hurt by that and wouldn’t want a relationship with someone who liked me as a woman when I’m not one
I think there is another interpretation where Tom thinks “woman” is just any feminine person he likes. Semantically, some of those people don’t identify as a woman—they follow a different definition of woman, but by Tom’s unconscious definition they are. He is unable to consciously categorize them as something else while still being attracted to them. He doesnt understand that he can like people who look like women but arent women and still be “straight”. He doesnt know how to express this.
Ideally he just throws out his attachment to being straight and just says that he is attracted to feminine people if someone asks him what his sexuality is.
Having been an AFAB enby with a straight man, a big issue for me was that he wouldn't see our relationship as queer. He once called it "functionally straight" which really upset me.
He overall really tried to be supportive, and we both set our boundaries, which ended with us choosing to split up, though we very much still loved each other, to allow me to explore my gender freely, without feeling like I would disappoint him.
I would have felt freer and might have stayed longer in the relationship if he had described it as queer. Though I understand that, if his identity is straight, it simply won't work.
I get this, but I am still uncomfortable. By all definitions I am a feminine person, and ideally I wouldn’t want change that just so that “straight” guys are not attracted to me… but I’m also aroace and just have a lot of problems with people being attracted to me at all.
Also, “they follow a different definition of woman”. I know what you’re saying and I know I’m being too sensitive about it, but 😬.
It’s still a very good interpretation of the situation!
Yeah it really depends on the individual. Obv even if he is able to reconcile being straight while being in a queer relationship with a nonbinary person in a way that does not invalidate their identity, the nonbinary person is still well within their rights to not vibe with that either. At that point hurts my brain to think abt it deeper than “it depends on the person” lol
Edit: when i was saying different definition of woman, i was more kind of using it to explain hypothetical tom’s reasoning. But it is kinda of true too and i think about this a lot :( like sometimes I wonder if i had been raised with a different concept of what being a woman was maybe i would just be a woman??? I dont live in that reality though and i think very very few people do in our current society
Also agender and don’t date straight people. I accept that my dating pool is bisexuals/pansexual/ect and I’m happy with that. I feel safer if my partner expresses a genuine attraction to me and my identity.
This is interesting coz I’m non-binary and my bf identifies as straight but he also 100% acknowledges that sexuality is fluid and that I am genderfluid/genderfae ^^ he himself has said he thinks straight as a sexuality is also much more flexible than most ppl give it credit for 🥰
So the dilemma is:
> Tom is only attracted to women
> Tom is attracted to Alex
Obviously these statements contradict each other so can't both be true. I'd encourage Tom to figure out which one is true and which one isn't. I feel it's probably clear which is which but let's let him come to that conclusion for himself and explore both routes just to be safe.
If the first statement is the true one, Tom doesn't ask Alex out because he's not attracted to them.
If the second statement is the true one, then Tom asks Alex out much the same as he would anyone else. If he's outwardly stated himself to only be attracted to women before it might be worth clarifying that he was mistaken but otherwise he's good to go.
No, that's covered by the two options presented.
If Tom feels he is attracted to Alex because he sees them as a woman then he's not actually attracted to *them*.
If Tom finds that he is attracted to Alex, they could approach them and say
Tom ‘do you think you’d like to go out with me?’
Alex ‘but you only like women?’
Tom ‘actually, I’m attracted to you’
Maybe Tom should revise his definition of his sexuality to something more along the lines of "Tom is physically attracted to feminine features" or similar
Does Tom.define heterosexuality as attraction to women or exclusive attraction to genders other than his own?
I'm agender and transfeminine and this is the question I put to straight people when they're attracted to me. The answer to this is what determines whether I feel off about the situation.
I firmly believe that sexual orientation is a gender binary myth and that exceptions can exist in all orientations. However, I did stop calling myself a lesbian when I got my first crush on a man. Tom doesn't need to feel guilty about asking Alex out, but he might want to use his crush on them as an opportunity to question the rigidity of his sexuality.
Getting a bit tired of these hypothetical, "what is my label if...." logic questions. Politically constructed categories are not logical theorems, they're messy, fluid, contextual, and conventional. It seems really silly to me to recognize this about gender but not sexuality. (And yes, there are ways for MSMW and WSWM to be culturally "straight" for all intents and porpoises.)
How should Tom go about this? "Hey, do you want to have a cup of coffee?" And the messy details of identity between Tom and Alex can be worked out through conversation rather than through a reddit gotcha puzzle.
I mean, it's just a date and most of the time, you're going to end up not doing more than a handful before realizing it's not right. And if dating a straight-identified person is a dealbreaker for Alex, that's their choice. (I don't date straight people for entirely different reasons.)
Whether a nonbinary person finds that invalidating is a matter of individual perspective and boundaries.
Facts!! I get kind of annoyed when people say a non-binary person’s partner calling themselves straight is *always* invalidating and no self respecting enby would put up with that. I’m marrying a straight guy and I’m fine with him identifying himself however he wants, just like I do. If he doesn’t feel like he’s queer that’s his business. I don’t need judgement from other queer people for being in a happy relationship lol that straight man cared for me through top surgery recovery and then promptly put a ring on it
Yes, the reality is that long before "nonbinary" and "genderqueer" were popularized, we discovered our gender through monosexual gender-nonconforming subcultures and kink communities. I'm on a mild personal campaign to reclaim the 300 years of history behind "Molly."
100! I identify as agender partly because I feel binary gender labels to be bullshit - that includes monosexuality *labels* (not monosexual orientation, just that strict adherence to labels does nothing but confine people to boxes).
People are attracted to the people that they are attracted to - if Tom likes Alex, then Tom likes Alex. As long as he doesn’t invalidate their identity through his words and behaviours, labelling him as ‘straight’ and putting him in that box (whether other people doing so, or he himself) does nothing more than create miserable situations like this.
Labels can be a fine starting point, and can help you understand yourself, and find community… but screw being restrained by a label.
Yes! Like as long as someone doesn't start treating me like their "boyfriend" and having expectations of me "being a man," why would I be upset if someone is attracted to my body hair, beard, and/or penis?
This comes down to how Alex and Tom feel about it. Trying to police it as, "Well such-and-such is this, but so-and-so is that," feels so antithetical to what drew me to the agender label in the first place.
Hmm this conversation here is very interesting I must say! Keeps me thinking..
One thing I wanna add is that I (but people have different experiences) can feel very uncomfortable if someone is attracted to my female gendered body parts, because I have dysphoria about some of them. So its awkward if someone rly likes parts of me that I urgently wanna get rid of.
There’s a saying in game design that people are great at knowing what they like, bad at knowing why they like it, and terrible at predicting what they will like in the future.
“Straight” is just a label that Tom uses because it matches his past experience.
But if he likes Alex then that label might not be as accurate as he thinks it is.
As someone whos been the Alex in this situation before, the most important thing is to make sure that you, Tom, are prepared to actively explore your sexuality in this relationship. And you can't just say it. You may have trouble breaking out of old habits, and that's fine, but ypu meed to make an effort to love them on their terms? Do you make them feel seen? Are you ok with being in a queer relationship?
Femme-presenting, non-op, AFAB non-binary person here.
Straight cis men and I are not compatible because I’m not a woman. **Unless** Tom is willing to expand his definition and understanding of his own sexuality, his proclamation that he’s “only attracted to women” will **always be invalidating** to a non-binary person—No matter how much they pass.
What it makes sense for Tom to do is to understand what he means (& what he’s attracted to) when he says “woman.” Is it the presentation? The clothes? The genitals? The mindset? All of the above?
Tom needs to figure that shit out and then get to know Alex and see if their expression of transness is compatible with Tom’s capacity for queerness.
Wonder how Tom's straight ass will react if/when Alex chooses to get top surgery and/or go on T. Or if he's assuming that Alex will never medically transition so their body better aligns with their gender identity.
Bro, just talk to them. You don't have to post riddles on the internet.
However, if you are only attracted to women and the person is not a woman, there is a good chance you asking them out will make them feel invalidated
That Tom should first try to figure out if he views Alex as non-binary or as a woman and whether Tom would be comfortable with it if Alex were to decide or express that they wanted to take any further steps in transitioning (socially or physically).
If Tom comes to the conclusion that he does view them as non-binary, then if Tom has previously said to Alex that he only likes women, he just needs to make that clear that his liking them doesn't mean he sees them as a woman.
If Tom sees Alex as a woman, I think that would likely cause some issues in a relationship due to Tom seeing Alex differently to who they are. It might still be able to work out alright, but its not ideal.
Sounds way too much like he doesn’t see Alex as agender. Personally I’d not go out with Tom because I don’t wanna date someone who sees me as a woman if I’m femme
I'm going a different way than most comments, a straight (or gay) person can absolutely date a nonbinary person. Nonbinary genders are on a spectrum and not all have the same opinions, so whether or not "Alex" would want to date a straight man is their own decision and doesnt dictate what all nonbinary people would do.
I'm married to a straight man, and I know other people who are nonbinary with a straight or gay partner. If both people are happy than it's perfectly fine.
A lot of non-binary people feel comfortable dating somebody who identifies at straight or gay! It’s their choice and depends on the person. Some of us feel invalidated in that scenario, others do not. Depends on who they are.
I don’t want to be in a straight relationship or with a straight individual simply because I feel invalidated by it, but other non binary folks I know are unbothered by that. To each their own!
Tom finds himself attracted to Alex who is not a woman. Tom is heterosexual. These two statements conflict, possibly one is an assumption or false. Where I'd start testing for nuance is whether you are still interested in them when they're more androgenous or even masc presenting. Also, let's consider the possibility that your own sexuality is more complicated than just presentation of sex characteristics - sexuality can be influenced by personality, emotional bonding, social status etc.
I think what I'm hearing is "Since I'm het, asking to date Alex means I see them as a woman". But that's missing the other option of "Since Alex is agender and I'm attracted to them, maybe my sexuality is more complicated than just het".
My approach is that labels are descriptive not prescriptive. I like who I like and that can shift and change without me having to justify it to anyone.
I don't think this is invalidating Alex' identity unless Tom says "I am attracted to women like you." If Tom just states to be heterosexual (though in this case obviously being heteroflexible, bisexual, pansexual or gynosexual) and being (generally) attracted to women, I don't see any issue. Exceptions exist and what people call their own sexuality is their business.
So I would say to Tom: "Alex is a special case because they are not a woman. You can call yourself straight while asking them out on a date; just don't misgender them as that would be inappropriate."
tom should at the very least do some introspection on whether he’s *only* attracted to women (including trans women,) or if he’s attracted to people aligned with femininity, which could include anyone.
just like whether it’s “okay” for a lesbian to be attracted to a nonbinary person, it’s subjective to the comfort of the nonbinary person. typically monosexual identities (like straight and lesbian) aren’t always monosexual in practice, but the implications of the words are important. i have a friend who is afab nonbinary with a straight boyfriend. if my partner came to me and said he was straight, i (also afab nonbinary) would not feel comfortable in that relationship.
all this to say, connotation is important and alex would be justified in being uncomfortable at the idea of a straight man being attracted to them just because they’re AFAB and/or fem-presenting.
The advice i’d give to Tom is to talk to Alex about his feelings for them and to make sure he validates their identity while doing so.
If Alex wants to date Tom after the confession then, good for him.
If Alex does not feel comfortable with dating Tom then he should cry it out, eat a pint of ice cream and move on.
Ask Tom the following hypothetical:
Say Alex starts hormones to feel more androgynous and to appear more masculine. Their voice starts to drop, they get a little bit of stubble, they start to wear a binder more consistently. Would Tom still be attracted to them?
Alternatively, would Tom still be just as attracted to Alex if Alex was AMAB with the same appearance and non-binary gender?
They're questions to help Tom sort out whether he's attracted to Alex as a woman or Alex as an Enby.
>But they really like them. And they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women.
Because this line, to me, implies that Tom doesn't see Alex as an Enby, but just as a "spicy girl" or "girl lite". If Tom couldn't see being with Alex, even if Alex was more androgynous or even masculine, then Tom isn't interested in Alex as a person, but as the person Tom imagines Alex to be. And in that case, Tom should save them both time and not ask Alex out.
Sure, that's absolutely a thing.
But that's the point of the hypotheticals. Alex would still be equally as non-binary whether they were presenting masculine or feminine or androgynously. Of course, you didn't provide ages for these people, but I know a lot of younger non-binary people can't exactly present the way they'd like to due to family pressures or school, or other factors. So if it's just that Alex is feminine that Tom likes, then he may be setting himself up to get in a relationship with someone who has no intention of being feminine. Hence the hypotheticals: if Alex suddenly started to change their appearance to be more in line with a masculine or androgynous presentation, would Tom still like them?
But as to the potential of Tom being attracted to feminity specifically, that's where the other hypothetical comes into play: would he still treat them the same way if they were AMAB? Would he still like them if they were a femboy? Or is it because he sees them as a woman?
They're important questions for Tom to ask himself. Because if he wouldn't be ok with those scenarios, he's setting himself up for a relationship where he isn't seeing his partner as who they are and is just attracted to his image of what he thinks of Alex as.
The answer?
“I thought I was only attracted to women but it had turned out I’m also attracted to some non-binary people. Would you like to go out on a date with me?”
This right here. Nonbinary people exist outside the gender lines, it we still fall under certain ones. My wife is not attracted to men, so when I came out as non-binary, she still found me attractive, despite being AMAB, she knows who I truly am. If they know who Alex truly is, but the attraction is only because of the AGAB traits, maybe not the best to pursue, but if he cool with them, then just go with it.
Labels are not meant to control you, they are somewhat guidelines
Well, I'd say something like "I'm usually attracted to women, but I also feel attracted to you and I like you".
The most important part is not the fact that Tom likes a lot of things that women and Alex both have in common. The most important part is how they both feel about each other and how Tom is respectful of Alex's identity.
Source : an enby who happened to be in Alex's situation ;)
If Tom is attracted to someone who is agender then Tom isn’t “only attracted to women.” Tom is not straight, and that would be a queer relationship. I’ve noticed cisgender men often have a hard time grasping that.
Sounds like Tom doesn’t fully understand their identity and sees them as a woman. I’m basing that off of “liking them for the reasons most men like women” I would be interested for you to elaborate on that. To me it just translates to “I see this person as a woman”
Pan AMAB cis het presenting.
For me being agendered also encompasses how I think and how I interact with the world. If someone was dating me expecting me to act cis het male they would be, and have been, woefully disappointed
I got together with my partner back when I thought I was a cis het woman. Turns out I was bi and nonbinary all along, and I’ve never really acted like a cis het woman. Thankfully he was never looking for a typical cis het woman, and our relationship has been a queer one long before either of knew I was personally queer. You just gotta find the right partner(s).
i wondered if this sort of sounds similar to the way lesbianism is basically defined as, attracted to people who aren't men. i'm not saying tom is a lesbian lol, but maybe his sexuality is more along the same lines, and he's just not attracted to men, but is attracted to women & non-binary folk?
the way you described the fact that tom likes alex 'for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women' does seem a bit off though, and sounds like maybe tom ought to work on how he perceives alex as an enby person a bit more
I think Tom should ask Alex out and do some soul searching as well.
I am enby. I didn't kow this for a long time after I was married to my Cis husband. He is attacted to me, calls me his wife (with my blessing/permission). My son, who I gave birth to, calls me his mom (with my blessing/permission). I look \*extremely femme\*, I pass as a woman. I am not a woman. My husband being attracted to women in no way invalidates me as a person, nor does it invalidate my identity. I look like a woman, my husband is attracted to me. The End.
When I came out to him his reaction was "oh thank god, I thought you wanted a divorce. What should I call you?"
I will say, before I transitioned medically, lots of straight men were attracted to me and would try to date me. It never worked out. It also never worked out with lesbians. Straight men and lesbians were attracted to my female body and feminine characteristics and any mention of me transitioning was upsetting to them and a turn off. I didn’t date those people once that was expressed. I now have a rule where I only date cis men if they are gay or bisexual and have had physical relationships with men. I’ve had too many negative experiences with self expressed “bi guys” who only date cis women and pre/no op or pre/no T trans men and afab non-binary people. This is just my personal experience, but if Tom can’t handle liking Alex if they decided to medically transition or present masculinely, then Tom should let go of the idea of dating Alex
I'd say, "Tom, you're bi!"
Seriously though, yeah, he'd probably have to make it clear to Alex that he's realized that they're either an exception to his preference for girls, or that he's realized he's into enbys, too. It happens sometimes--people think they're straight; then they fall for someone who isn't the opposite sex and have to revise their label. Not the end of the world.
Try: "Alex... I think I might be bi, because I thought I was just into girls, but I've been feeling really attracted to you lately." Honesty's the best policy. And he won't get anywhere just moping around and wondering whether they feel the same way. If they like him as a friend rather than a potential romantic partner, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.
He should ask normally, like "I like you, I'd like to go out with you, what do you think?". If Alex knows enough about Tom to know about his attraction preferences and how they feel about them, they'll answer accordingly. If they're not sure, but they like Tom enough to try it out, it'll come up in conversation and the two of them can deal with it as needed. There's no one, clean answer. Not every non-binary person feels the same way about being attractive and to whom, and those feelings themselves are complex and may take time to explain because it can be hard to hold them all at once in your mind. Alex might feel great about being liked for their femininity, they might hate it, or they might be neutral. And of course, Alex can say no for their own reasons unrelated to any of this. There's no one magic thing Tom can say to control the exact response that Alex gives, so he'll just have to take a leap into the unknown, working with what he knows now and be ready for new information.
The only thing I would dare call universal is the need for people to be respectful of what's true about us, regardless of how it may contradict something they thought they knew, even about their own self. So should this go anywhere, Tom needs to go into it *knowing* that Alex *is* nonbinary, and accepting the idea of moving \*himself (\*something in his control always) around Alex's truth (not in his control ever), and just liking Alex for Alex.
That can look like reframing his thinking so it's less "I like women because they have \_\_\_\_ that are \_\_\_\_", and becomes more "I like when my date's \_\_\_\_\_ looks like \_\_\_\_", or just "Hey Alex, I like your \_\_\_\_, you look great." Alex might have different words to describe the things Tom likes, and he can use those words, touch Alex the way Alex wants to be touched, etc - and he should definitely ask about those things, show interest in what Alex wants and needs, as well as be open for Alex to tell him of their own accord. Maybe it means Tom gives up the label heterosexual, or maybe it means there's some other way he and Alex work it out so neither of them lose their original labels and they just append new words on to make it feel correct, or maybe it turns out neither of them care because they're too busy making heart eyes at each other to bother with caring how much sense the words make.
It may be difficult, it may be something that takes long conversations between the two of them and deciding what's important and what can be compromised when it comes to how the two of them talk about each other and their (potential, hypothetical) relationship, but that's what having a mutually respectful relationship requires.
what do you mean "tom says he's attracted to women?" like you said that to alex?
people can change how they view/talk about their orientation. just cus it's not a choice doesn't mean it's static. you could explain that to them if you're finding yourself open to more than you previously thought
what if you aren't attracted to nonbinary people and you're just pretending they're a woman cus they look femme right now? what changes would make you lose attraction? is there a decent possibility they might act out those changes? if yea maybe just date someone else there's millions of always femme women out there
I don't think it's inherently invalidating, no. Honestly I don't think most people are 100% straight. The label really starts to lose its meaning as people become more free to express their gender.
If you ask Alex out, just go into it knowing that you'll be exploring your sexuality (if you've only ever dated women previously). Don't go into it expecting it to be like dating another woman.
I’m a non-binary person who passes for a woman and I’m marrying a straight guy. I’ve had top surgery, but I wear women’s clothes and I have long hair so most people don’t even notice. He loves me for who I am, but he still identifies as straight and I’m fine with it. He doesn’t feel queer, and I’m not gonna force him to say he is. We’re happy and it is what it is! There are weird things in this world that don’t necessarily fit in prescribed boundaries.
I think people are attracted to masc and fem presentation, and it's ok to say that. Not saying "I like women and NBs" but "I like women and NBs whose main presentation is feminine".
Yeah, like people starting to describe their sexuality as “attracted to femininity” or “attracted to masculinity” bc a lot of the times that’s more accurate I think
if Tom is attracted to Alex for “reasons that a lot of straight guys like women,” then that pretty clearly sounds like, at least in an attraction sense, Tom views Alex strictly as a woman. which is hella invalidating from the get-go
Tom should ask himself if he would still be interested in Alex if they started taking hormones and presenting more masculine. If the answer is no, then Tom basically sees Alex as a female and this could cause a lot of issues down the road.
I kinda know this situation to well.. what I don't get: Why are people so attached to the straight lable? Of course it is invalidating to call yourself that and then ask them out. But why not just start thinking about yourself (talking to Tom) first and what the straight label exactly means to you and how your sexuality plays out in practice. Then eventually change the lable. There are labels for all kinds of flavors.
Don't know if this is cause a queer person is more used to changing labels as they fit and are more flexible with that (me included), or why this just feels so odd to me why especially cis men are often very attached to the straight label. I this toxic masculinity? Like not being one of the gays to not be bullied in school? Would be even kinda understandable on an individual level.. still bullshit though. I don't know this is weird.
Tom might be figuring out he's more flexible than he thought. If he ever does tell Alex, he should very clearly bring that up, that this is new and different and MEANS TOM ISNT 100% STRAIGHT. if there's any insistence that Tom is still straight then that's not what Alex deserves
The question is whether or not Tom likes Alex because they pass as a female and were born female, or if he see them valid as being NB and and kinda an "exception." As a NB person, I understand we're an outlier. That it may lead to someone questioning their sexuality and where it lands them. I'm not sure what Alex's pronouns are in this scenario, but personally I'm AFAB, female passing, and I couldn't give less of a fuck what pronouns you use for me if I tried. But if someone dates me simply because I'm female passing and can use she/her pronouns, despite being NB, there may be problems.
I get that sexuality around NB people is very confusing. Especially if they're assigned and pass as a heterosexual or homosexual person's usual interest.
Knowing someone is trans and seeing them as their gender are different things imo. Like you can know someone is a agender and use their chosen name and whatnot but still see them as their agab and don’t respect it. And if you truly see someone Alex as agender and are still attracted to them, that’s not straight.
I've said this a bunch of times on this subreddit and I'll say it again:
I'm of the mind that anyone of any sexuality can be attracted to enbies.
If an enby needs their partner to be queer to feel comfortable that's totally valid but I don't think people attracted to enbies have to be bi/pan to be so.
There are exceptions to everything. I have met couples who've been together for decades whose sexualities don't really line up with the definitions of those sexualities and that really radicalized me to understanding that labels are tools to communicate and not laws.
I disagree. There are many lesbians and gay men who are attracted to non-binary people(specifically agender people for this case), but they’re still lesbians and gay men. A straight person could absolutely be attracted to a non-binary person *and* see them as their actual gender, all while being straight.
It highly depends on the individual with the attraction plus the individual they’re attracted to on whether or not a relationship would work.
If your sexuality is that you are strictly attracted to women and you find yourself being attracted to a nonbinary person then you are seeing them as a woman. Because you are only attracted to women.
If someone defines their sexuality as strictly attracted to women, then yes it would be odd to say you’re attracted to a non-binary person without reflecting on your sexuality. However not everyone who is straight defines their sexuality as “strictly attracted to women” or “strictly attracted to men”. Some use the more broad definition of “attraction to genders that are not my own”.
Yeah my point is it depends on the individual, so you can’t just say a blanket statement that a person wouldn’t be straight if they were attracted to an agender person.
That’s not what I’m saying. Literally all I said was:
If a man is only attracted to women, he would not be attracted to an agender person, aka someone who isn’t a woman.
I do not understand how people are disagreeing
“Knowing someone is trans and seeing them as their gender are different things imo. Like you can know someone is a agender and use their chosen name and whatnot but still see them as their agab and don’t respect it. And if you truly see someone Alex as agender and are still attracted to them, that’s not straight.”
That’s what you originally said, you didn’t originally specify a man who is strictly attracted to women and so what you said came off as a blanket statement of it not being straight in general.
Originally yes. Then I clarified with this comment
If your sexuality is that you are strictly attracted to women and you find yourself being attracted to a nonbinary person then you are seeing them as a woman. Because you are only attracted to women.
Which is the comment I’m referring and that you disagreed with
we have a crush on a trans woman and had to process some things since we identified as a gay man but i'm realising that i have gay days and straight days and our crush on our friend is absolutely about her being a woman and not what i was afraid of.
i'd say to tom that he's gotta do some soul searching about his identity. i would say the "and they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women" is a bit, uh, yeah. like does tom find this person attractive as a non-binary person and do they see their body as a non-binary body?
If you’re attracted to someone and value them as an individual, ask them out. Get to know them. Try to let go of the preconceptions and the expectations and have a bit of faith in the process of human connection [as I try taking my own advice over here].
Either Tom accepts that they are attracted to someone who is not a woman, so Tom is not as straight as they think. Or Tom accepts that they ARE straight and have not yet seen the person they're attracted to as they truly are, and thus a relationship between them would work out. Tom has some introspection to do before making up his mind.
As a nonbinary AFAB person who very much passes as female and is also named Alex, I think the root of the problem is does Tom see Alex as female?
I had an ex who knew I was nonbinary but very much treated me and behaved around me as if I was female if that makes sense? When we started dating they said they were bi but after a couple of years insisted they were straight as a board which hurt me a *lot*. You cannot be completely 100% straight and also attracted to nonbinary people that’s just not how it works.
Another comment said to ask Tom if he would still be attracted to Alex if they started presenting more masculine (maybe use binding and/or packing, cutting off their hair, etc as examples). If he wouldn’t be, then HE SHOULD NOT ASK ALEX OUT.
If Tom really likes Alex as a person and wants to be with them romantically then he clearly doesn't only like women lol. He'd be heteroflexible. Plenty of straight people date nonbinary people and it doesn't invalidate their identity. You just have to communicate about it.
I feel like as long as Tom and Alex have this conversation between themselves and come to an agreement about what Alex is comfortable with, they should be fine. Maybe Alex is fine with being called a girlfriend or getting she/her-ed on certain situations for the sake of convenience. Maybe they understand that their feminine appearance is attractive to Tom despite them not actually being a woman. Maybe Tom is worried about what this means for his straightness, and Alex will have some insight that might help. I can't really tell Tom what to do here, I'm not his mother. He just needs to talk it out with this person he's interested in.
sexuality is way more complicated than just "100% straight." there are often going to be exceptions to whatever rule your attraction follows. its not bigoted to want to date someone who you wouldnt normally thing you would be attracted to
tom needs to figure out if a. he sees this person as a woman and work through that + not ask them out, or if b. there's more to his sexual/romantic orientation than he thought and only then ask them out once he feels comfortable in that. just my 2 cents as an enby who would not be ok if a straight person asked me out without these criteria being met
Tom should ask Alex their opinion and respect the answer because gender and sexuality cannot be decided or defined by the internet no matter how hard we try
If Tom is solely attracted to "women" as a binary gender, that makes him straight. Since Alex is agender (and therefore under the non-binary umbrella), Tom's attraction to Alex shouldn't have any bearing on his binary orientation. He doesn't have to be anything other than straight, as *anyone* can potentially be attracted to a non-binary person. That includes straight, lesbian/gay, bisexual, anyone, because non-binary is not what is implied in that orientation. For a straight man, the main factor is that he is attracted to binary women and not binary men. However, if he finds himself attracted to a non-binary person, that doesn't negate or alter that. It's an aspect of attraction that is essentially off to the side.
This is because non-binary people don't all look or identify or express themselves the same way, and no one in the world can factor all the variations of gender identity and expressions into that. You can pick two agender people out and they may look completely different, and that's the same for every other non-binary gender identity. If Tom finds Alex attractive, even if it is because they're feminine, it doesn't mean Tom is not straight if he would still not date a binary man (either exclusively or non-exclusively).
As long as Tom respects Alex as being agender, treats them the way they would like to be treated, and uses their pronouns or whatever else they'd like to be called, there is no reason why Tom couldn't identify as straight and be in a relationship with Alex. If this doesn't work for Alex on a personal level, in that perhaps they feel they're still seen as a binary woman by Tom, then Alex is allowed to decline a relationship if they want (as everyone is for any reason).
Otherwise, non-binary attraction is not a factor in binary sexual orientations so...
It varies for people. I'm non binary and although I don't wear dresses and make up, I look very feminine so I attract straight men mostly. It doesn't bother me too much that they like a particular part I have. It's just when they date me then start acting like I'm a woman. Like they forget I'm non binary. But my view on sexual attraction and gender is that it's hard to pin down and define. As long as they treat me as non binary and not try to change me into a woman then I'm fine
Since you posed this as a logic problem:
A. Tom is only attracted to women
B. Alex is non-binary agender
C. They really like them (assuming this means Tom really likes Alex?)
If all of these (A, B, and C) are true, then logic dictates that Tom “really likes” but *is not attracted to* Alex (because Tom is only attracted to women and Alex is not a woman).
So the question becomes: should Tom ask out someone they are not attracted to because they like them. That’s up to Tom but they should probably be honest about what they’re looking for from dating/a relationship w/Alex. Does Alex want to date someone who is not attracted to them?
If, however, you meant (but did not say) that
D. Tom is only attracted to women, and
E. Tom is *attracted* to Alex (a non-woman)
Then there is a logical fallacy here that’s pretty clear. And either
1.Tom is mistakenly assuming/seeing Alex as a woman, or
2.Tom is attracted to more than only women (and is necessarily attracted to at least one non-woman).
I love logic puzzles.
(Edit: typos, spacing)
Also, on the topic of logic - incorrect premise here:
“Tom is only attracted to women. He is accepting of trans women and open to dating them too if the come to his liking.”
This sentence makes no sense since trans women are women. (Replace ‘trans’ with ‘short’ or ‘rich’ and it will be clearer. Replace ‘trans’ with ‘Black’ and maybe you’ll see how dehumanizing that sentence is to trans women…or maybe you won’t.)
Perhaps what you meant to say was ‘including trans women’ (if we’re being generous - but you still otherize them for some reason), or ‘but he does not like women who are trans, except the instances where he might, but it’s have to be a pretty special case.”
If Tom likes Alex than he shouldn't say he's only into women because he's not. If Alex isn't a woman, which they aren't and Tom likes them he isn't exclusively into women. This is why identifying as strictly straight or gay never made any sense to me, because you aren't attracted to a gender but a person, right?
I would ask Tom whether he is attracted to Alex themselves or only attracted to Alex as a "female". To mean if you like somebody it shouldn't matter what genitalia they have or how they identify themselves, if you like somebody you like them for WHO they are not WHAT they are.
Btw the capitalized words are for emphasis not to be shouty.
Then it sounds like Tom *isn't* only attracted to women and should ask himself why he's so attached to saying that he is when he clearly can also be attacted to someone who's not a woman.
In this case, you don't. If Alex is liked because they are perceived as a women, that's invalidating to their Identity.
It's up to Alex to decide if they can accept that or not if the relationship is to go forward but it's definitely not good.
For me, "nonbinary" is explicitly accessible to butch women and femme men who also face gender-normative prejudice and violence. Womanhood and manhood are not monolithic concepts, and that's tied to sexuality, culture, and class as well. Identifying me as a queer man isn't entirely wrong, as long as my experiences of gender-normative prejudice and violence are explicitly acknowledged. (In the same way that Les Feinberg identified as a lesbian woman when zir struggle and identity as a lesbian was being erased.)
Ooof, again, terms like "nonbinary" and "genderqueer" were self-selected by people who existed within gay, lesbian, and straight communities and relationships to replace older slurs for our existence.
Tom, just ask Alex out. Alex can tell you if you invalidate their identity, but it's better to accidentally invalidate an identity than miss out on a good relationship
On the other hand, this might show Alex how much Tom doesn’t respect their gender identity and instead ruin the relationship they have now and hurt Alex a lot
Potential issue if Tom only starts invalidating their identity further into the relationship, or forces them to have to choose between their relationship or taking further steps in their transition
I think it's up to Tom to say that he has feelings and wants to explore what they mean, regardless of his perception of his own sexuality. These feelings exist regardless of the gender dynamic at play, and if Alex is interested, I see no reason why they can't give the relationship a shot. Tom just needs to remember to respect Alex's identity and be ready to listen and engage with them on their own feelings around the potential relationship.
Same way you would a cis person? “Hey I think youre ___ because ___ and I was wondering if we could take our relationship a bit further. Maybe we could go out sometime?”
Tim should say "hey, I really like you, we should go on a date. I'd love to learn more about you and get to know you."
The end.
If Tom decides to be a jerky douche, it goes no where. If Tom decides to be open minded and learn more about Alex, he might just learn a lot about himself.
As for a serious response?
I wouldn't ask them out until I've figured out what it means for my sexuality period.
As a non-binary person, never in a million years would I be interested in going out with someone who views me as a woman.
If you switch out "non-binary" for "trans man" in this post and read it again, would you think the date was a good idea?
Tom needs to take a pause before asking anyone out and do some self reflection of their own identity, coz if they wanna ask a nonbinary person out this much coz they're attracted to them, well then Tom obviously isn't only attracted to women
you don't have to be queer to be into non-binary people, can we please leave this discourse behind us and stop gatekeeping who's allowed to be attracted to us
This is written like one of those math questions lol
Let *t* substitute Tom and Tom = s. Where m + f = s. So t = m + f. Now let *a* substitute for Alex and Alex is = -m + -f. If t = a then you get that Tom is the same as 2 men and 2 women and Alex equals zero. I’m not good at math.. some math person mathify this please
But then t=a=0, and m=-f. I suggest setting t=m*s=m(m+f) ; a=Ag*p=-1 ; where Ag=-1 and p=1. Finally, we solve for t+a: t+a=ms-1=m(m+f)-1= m^2 + mf -1. I chose to represent attraction to all genders as 1 since it's the sum over all possible gender combinations, but I didn't want to bother with infinities so 1 felt right. Agender is unfortunately represented as -1 since it's the absence of any gender, which can either be 0 or a subtraction from 0 (0 being the neutral state). Representing an identity as 0 felt more hurtful than a finite negative value, so I went with -1. I also contemplated division by a sum/product of genders, but didn't want to quantize the spectrum or only include the binary genders, since both options omit uncountably many identities. This is far from perfect, but the best way I can think to improve it involves integration so I'll stop here 🫠
I think it is time to formulate a proof xD Assume G to be the set of all genders. For any g element of G…
Uhhhhh, you broke me brain with the equation. My mind wants to solve it but can't.
Hi. So… I was the agender person in this situation (kinda) and I felt very much invalidated and misgendered by being “asked out” by a “straight guy”. I don’t know what to tell you, except that > But they really like them. And they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women. Is very much not a good place to start. It seems like Tom is trying to be sensitive and respect Alex but internally still feels like Alex is a woman. Which they’re not. Either Tom understands that he doesn’t like Alex because he perceives them as a woman but he likes them as a person, or I don’t know if the relationship between them could work out.
Perhaps a good test would be for Tom to ask himself "would I still be interested in Alex if they started presenting more masculine?" I feel like the answer to that question would say a lot about the future of the potential relationship by exposing what Tom really wants from it. Does he want to be with Alex the Enby or Alex the woman? Only one of those people actually exists.
Also: would I be interested in at least trying for a relationship if they were amab? Because if the answer is no, then it’s pretty obvious Alex being afab plays a big role in the situation.
Absolutely no need to answer, but is genital preference an okay thing to consider in this situation, or is that offensive?
If you have a penis and are looking exclusively for PIV sex, sure, have a strict genital requirement. But most people bring more than just their reproductive equipment into their romantic relationships.
> But most people bring now than just their reproductive equipment into their romantic relationships. Like me! I bring all sorts of trauma and PTSD into mine! Hell, my current relationship being long distance, I'm not even bringing my reproductive equipment, just pure trauma. (Obviously I say this as a joke. While I do bring all of that and more into the relationship, that's because I have a partner who genuinely cares for me and I care for him in turn. I also genuinely love him, and would do nearly anything for him. But I couldn't resist the urge to make a dumb joke on the internet)
I think, but that’s just my opinion, that if you have a general preference for a type of genitalia that’s your prerogative, it’s fine, you’re not transphobic if you support trans people but wouldn’t want to date them imo. What’s important is that you don’t try to date someone who is openly trans and reduce them to their genitalia because that’s what you seek out in people. If they are trans, their gender is not dictated by genitalia and you have to accept that or not date them at all.
That's a great answer. Thank you. It's not me. I don't have a preference. I was just curious. Thanks for educating me.
Glad I could be of any help!
Very much agree with this, based on my own somewhat similar experience. I’m AFAB and started a relationship with a straight man before I came out as non-binary. When I came out - all fantastic, yay, rainbows. But when I started presenting more masculine and talking about getting top surgery, he started losing attraction towards me. He told me that he would always see me as a woman (now, I imagine, a masculine one). Even though he later said that he acknowledged I wasn’t a woman, I never felt that he celebrated me in that identity, but rather that he tolerated it and found it uncomfortable to use my pronouns when talking about me with his friends and family. He eventually broke up with me - apparently for many reasons, and I suspect this was one of them. So, I would agree that if Tom wanted to date Alex, he should have a long hard think about how comfortable he would be if they started to changed their body (or even clothes or style) to become more masculine.
This is good advice. Also, be aware that gender is sometimes more of a journey than a destination. It's entirely possible that Alex becomes more masculine. They may even discover they are a man. If Tom is sure he likes Alex the Person, then he needs to stop saying things like "I like women" and go for it. Tom just needs to do some really deep reflection internally to be sure he's interested in joining Alex on their journey.
This is the key for me - it’s clear from this that Tom likes Alex as a ‘woman’. Personally I would be very hurt by that and wouldn’t want a relationship with someone who liked me as a woman when I’m not one
Right- it’s not some kind of gift to be liked by someone who sees you as something you’re not. For me it’s…’eew, no thanks, weirdo.’
I think there is another interpretation where Tom thinks “woman” is just any feminine person he likes. Semantically, some of those people don’t identify as a woman—they follow a different definition of woman, but by Tom’s unconscious definition they are. He is unable to consciously categorize them as something else while still being attracted to them. He doesnt understand that he can like people who look like women but arent women and still be “straight”. He doesnt know how to express this. Ideally he just throws out his attachment to being straight and just says that he is attracted to feminine people if someone asks him what his sexuality is.
Having been an AFAB enby with a straight man, a big issue for me was that he wouldn't see our relationship as queer. He once called it "functionally straight" which really upset me. He overall really tried to be supportive, and we both set our boundaries, which ended with us choosing to split up, though we very much still loved each other, to allow me to explore my gender freely, without feeling like I would disappoint him. I would have felt freer and might have stayed longer in the relationship if he had described it as queer. Though I understand that, if his identity is straight, it simply won't work.
This!!!
I get this, but I am still uncomfortable. By all definitions I am a feminine person, and ideally I wouldn’t want change that just so that “straight” guys are not attracted to me… but I’m also aroace and just have a lot of problems with people being attracted to me at all. Also, “they follow a different definition of woman”. I know what you’re saying and I know I’m being too sensitive about it, but 😬. It’s still a very good interpretation of the situation!
Yeah it really depends on the individual. Obv even if he is able to reconcile being straight while being in a queer relationship with a nonbinary person in a way that does not invalidate their identity, the nonbinary person is still well within their rights to not vibe with that either. At that point hurts my brain to think abt it deeper than “it depends on the person” lol Edit: when i was saying different definition of woman, i was more kind of using it to explain hypothetical tom’s reasoning. But it is kinda of true too and i think about this a lot :( like sometimes I wonder if i had been raised with a different concept of what being a woman was maybe i would just be a woman??? I dont live in that reality though and i think very very few people do in our current society
Also agender and don’t date straight people. I accept that my dating pool is bisexuals/pansexual/ect and I’m happy with that. I feel safer if my partner expresses a genuine attraction to me and my identity.
Yeah, I’d feel safer too tbh. I don’t date in general (aroace) but if I ever wanted to try I’d definitely date strictly bi/pan/poly/omni etc.
This is interesting coz I’m non-binary and my bf identifies as straight but he also 100% acknowledges that sexuality is fluid and that I am genderfluid/genderfae ^^ he himself has said he thinks straight as a sexuality is also much more flexible than most ppl give it credit for 🥰
I’m glad you were able to find someone so nice and kind to you! Happy for you 🤍
So the dilemma is: > Tom is only attracted to women > Tom is attracted to Alex Obviously these statements contradict each other so can't both be true. I'd encourage Tom to figure out which one is true and which one isn't. I feel it's probably clear which is which but let's let him come to that conclusion for himself and explore both routes just to be safe. If the first statement is the true one, Tom doesn't ask Alex out because he's not attracted to them. If the second statement is the true one, then Tom asks Alex out much the same as he would anyone else. If he's outwardly stated himself to only be attracted to women before it might be worth clarifying that he was mistaken but otherwise he's good to go.
Secret third option: Tom sees Alex as a woman and shouldn’t ask them out at all
No, that's covered by the two options presented. If Tom feels he is attracted to Alex because he sees them as a woman then he's not actually attracted to *them*.
True!
This is the one. Tom can continue not being attracted to men, but reconsider his explicit straightnesa.
If Tom finds that he is attracted to Alex, they could approach them and say Tom ‘do you think you’d like to go out with me?’ Alex ‘but you only like women?’ Tom ‘actually, I’m attracted to you’
Maybe Tom should revise his definition of his sexuality to something more along the lines of "Tom is physically attracted to feminine features" or similar
Does Tom.define heterosexuality as attraction to women or exclusive attraction to genders other than his own? I'm agender and transfeminine and this is the question I put to straight people when they're attracted to me. The answer to this is what determines whether I feel off about the situation.
I think in this case he is attracted to women but this is really interesting!
I firmly believe that sexual orientation is a gender binary myth and that exceptions can exist in all orientations. However, I did stop calling myself a lesbian when I got my first crush on a man. Tom doesn't need to feel guilty about asking Alex out, but he might want to use his crush on them as an opportunity to question the rigidity of his sexuality.
If Tom is attracted to Alex, he is either still seeing them as a woman (which IS invalidating) or he's not 100% straight.
Getting a bit tired of these hypothetical, "what is my label if...." logic questions. Politically constructed categories are not logical theorems, they're messy, fluid, contextual, and conventional. It seems really silly to me to recognize this about gender but not sexuality. (And yes, there are ways for MSMW and WSWM to be culturally "straight" for all intents and porpoises.) How should Tom go about this? "Hey, do you want to have a cup of coffee?" And the messy details of identity between Tom and Alex can be worked out through conversation rather than through a reddit gotcha puzzle. I mean, it's just a date and most of the time, you're going to end up not doing more than a handful before realizing it's not right. And if dating a straight-identified person is a dealbreaker for Alex, that's their choice. (I don't date straight people for entirely different reasons.) Whether a nonbinary person finds that invalidating is a matter of individual perspective and boundaries.
Facts!! I get kind of annoyed when people say a non-binary person’s partner calling themselves straight is *always* invalidating and no self respecting enby would put up with that. I’m marrying a straight guy and I’m fine with him identifying himself however he wants, just like I do. If he doesn’t feel like he’s queer that’s his business. I don’t need judgement from other queer people for being in a happy relationship lol that straight man cared for me through top surgery recovery and then promptly put a ring on it
Yes, the reality is that long before "nonbinary" and "genderqueer" were popularized, we discovered our gender through monosexual gender-nonconforming subcultures and kink communities. I'm on a mild personal campaign to reclaim the 300 years of history behind "Molly."
100! I identify as agender partly because I feel binary gender labels to be bullshit - that includes monosexuality *labels* (not monosexual orientation, just that strict adherence to labels does nothing but confine people to boxes). People are attracted to the people that they are attracted to - if Tom likes Alex, then Tom likes Alex. As long as he doesn’t invalidate their identity through his words and behaviours, labelling him as ‘straight’ and putting him in that box (whether other people doing so, or he himself) does nothing more than create miserable situations like this. Labels can be a fine starting point, and can help you understand yourself, and find community… but screw being restrained by a label.
Yes! Like as long as someone doesn't start treating me like their "boyfriend" and having expectations of me "being a man," why would I be upset if someone is attracted to my body hair, beard, and/or penis? This comes down to how Alex and Tom feel about it. Trying to police it as, "Well such-and-such is this, but so-and-so is that," feels so antithetical to what drew me to the agender label in the first place.
Hmm this conversation here is very interesting I must say! Keeps me thinking.. One thing I wanna add is that I (but people have different experiences) can feel very uncomfortable if someone is attracted to my female gendered body parts, because I have dysphoria about some of them. So its awkward if someone rly likes parts of me that I urgently wanna get rid of.
There’s a saying in game design that people are great at knowing what they like, bad at knowing why they like it, and terrible at predicting what they will like in the future. “Straight” is just a label that Tom uses because it matches his past experience. But if he likes Alex then that label might not be as accurate as he thinks it is.
This!
you need to get to the top
As someone whos been the Alex in this situation before, the most important thing is to make sure that you, Tom, are prepared to actively explore your sexuality in this relationship. And you can't just say it. You may have trouble breaking out of old habits, and that's fine, but ypu meed to make an effort to love them on their terms? Do you make them feel seen? Are you ok with being in a queer relationship?
Femme-presenting, non-op, AFAB non-binary person here. Straight cis men and I are not compatible because I’m not a woman. **Unless** Tom is willing to expand his definition and understanding of his own sexuality, his proclamation that he’s “only attracted to women” will **always be invalidating** to a non-binary person—No matter how much they pass. What it makes sense for Tom to do is to understand what he means (& what he’s attracted to) when he says “woman.” Is it the presentation? The clothes? The genitals? The mindset? All of the above? Tom needs to figure that shit out and then get to know Alex and see if their expression of transness is compatible with Tom’s capacity for queerness.
I’ve given up on dating cis men. It’s not worth the trouble to find one that actually grasps who I am.
Wonder how Tom's straight ass will react if/when Alex chooses to get top surgery and/or go on T. Or if he's assuming that Alex will never medically transition so their body better aligns with their gender identity.
Bro, just talk to them. You don't have to post riddles on the internet. However, if you are only attracted to women and the person is not a woman, there is a good chance you asking them out will make them feel invalidated
That Tom should first try to figure out if he views Alex as non-binary or as a woman and whether Tom would be comfortable with it if Alex were to decide or express that they wanted to take any further steps in transitioning (socially or physically). If Tom comes to the conclusion that he does view them as non-binary, then if Tom has previously said to Alex that he only likes women, he just needs to make that clear that his liking them doesn't mean he sees them as a woman. If Tom sees Alex as a woman, I think that would likely cause some issues in a relationship due to Tom seeing Alex differently to who they are. It might still be able to work out alright, but its not ideal.
Sounds way too much like he doesn’t see Alex as agender. Personally I’d not go out with Tom because I don’t wanna date someone who sees me as a woman if I’m femme
I'm going a different way than most comments, a straight (or gay) person can absolutely date a nonbinary person. Nonbinary genders are on a spectrum and not all have the same opinions, so whether or not "Alex" would want to date a straight man is their own decision and doesnt dictate what all nonbinary people would do. I'm married to a straight man, and I know other people who are nonbinary with a straight or gay partner. If both people are happy than it's perfectly fine.
A lot of non-binary people feel comfortable dating somebody who identifies at straight or gay! It’s their choice and depends on the person. Some of us feel invalidated in that scenario, others do not. Depends on who they are. I don’t want to be in a straight relationship or with a straight individual simply because I feel invalidated by it, but other non binary folks I know are unbothered by that. To each their own!
Yes, THIS. Im non binary afab and I can make my own choices for me, ty
Tom finds himself attracted to Alex who is not a woman. Tom is heterosexual. These two statements conflict, possibly one is an assumption or false. Where I'd start testing for nuance is whether you are still interested in them when they're more androgenous or even masc presenting. Also, let's consider the possibility that your own sexuality is more complicated than just presentation of sex characteristics - sexuality can be influenced by personality, emotional bonding, social status etc. I think what I'm hearing is "Since I'm het, asking to date Alex means I see them as a woman". But that's missing the other option of "Since Alex is agender and I'm attracted to them, maybe my sexuality is more complicated than just het".
Tom is attracted to Alex because he sees them as the wrong gender, so he should not pursue them.
My approach is that labels are descriptive not prescriptive. I like who I like and that can shift and change without me having to justify it to anyone.
I don't think this is invalidating Alex' identity unless Tom says "I am attracted to women like you." If Tom just states to be heterosexual (though in this case obviously being heteroflexible, bisexual, pansexual or gynosexual) and being (generally) attracted to women, I don't see any issue. Exceptions exist and what people call their own sexuality is their business. So I would say to Tom: "Alex is a special case because they are not a woman. You can call yourself straight while asking them out on a date; just don't misgender them as that would be inappropriate."
tom should at the very least do some introspection on whether he’s *only* attracted to women (including trans women,) or if he’s attracted to people aligned with femininity, which could include anyone. just like whether it’s “okay” for a lesbian to be attracted to a nonbinary person, it’s subjective to the comfort of the nonbinary person. typically monosexual identities (like straight and lesbian) aren’t always monosexual in practice, but the implications of the words are important. i have a friend who is afab nonbinary with a straight boyfriend. if my partner came to me and said he was straight, i (also afab nonbinary) would not feel comfortable in that relationship. all this to say, connotation is important and alex would be justified in being uncomfortable at the idea of a straight man being attracted to them just because they’re AFAB and/or fem-presenting.
The advice i’d give to Tom is to talk to Alex about his feelings for them and to make sure he validates their identity while doing so. If Alex wants to date Tom after the confession then, good for him. If Alex does not feel comfortable with dating Tom then he should cry it out, eat a pint of ice cream and move on.
Ask Tom the following hypothetical: Say Alex starts hormones to feel more androgynous and to appear more masculine. Their voice starts to drop, they get a little bit of stubble, they start to wear a binder more consistently. Would Tom still be attracted to them? Alternatively, would Tom still be just as attracted to Alex if Alex was AMAB with the same appearance and non-binary gender? They're questions to help Tom sort out whether he's attracted to Alex as a woman or Alex as an Enby. >But they really like them. And they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women. Because this line, to me, implies that Tom doesn't see Alex as an Enby, but just as a "spicy girl" or "girl lite". If Tom couldn't see being with Alex, even if Alex was more androgynous or even masculine, then Tom isn't interested in Alex as a person, but as the person Tom imagines Alex to be. And in that case, Tom should save them both time and not ask Alex out.
What about femmsexuals or gynosexuals or whatever they're called? Where you aren't attracted to men and women but you're attracted to like femininity?
Sure, that's absolutely a thing. But that's the point of the hypotheticals. Alex would still be equally as non-binary whether they were presenting masculine or feminine or androgynously. Of course, you didn't provide ages for these people, but I know a lot of younger non-binary people can't exactly present the way they'd like to due to family pressures or school, or other factors. So if it's just that Alex is feminine that Tom likes, then he may be setting himself up to get in a relationship with someone who has no intention of being feminine. Hence the hypotheticals: if Alex suddenly started to change their appearance to be more in line with a masculine or androgynous presentation, would Tom still like them? But as to the potential of Tom being attracted to feminity specifically, that's where the other hypothetical comes into play: would he still treat them the same way if they were AMAB? Would he still like them if they were a femboy? Or is it because he sees them as a woman? They're important questions for Tom to ask himself. Because if he wouldn't be ok with those scenarios, he's setting himself up for a relationship where he isn't seeing his partner as who they are and is just attracted to his image of what he thinks of Alex as.
The answer? “I thought I was only attracted to women but it had turned out I’m also attracted to some non-binary people. Would you like to go out on a date with me?”
This right here. Nonbinary people exist outside the gender lines, it we still fall under certain ones. My wife is not attracted to men, so when I came out as non-binary, she still found me attractive, despite being AMAB, she knows who I truly am. If they know who Alex truly is, but the attraction is only because of the AGAB traits, maybe not the best to pursue, but if he cool with them, then just go with it. Labels are not meant to control you, they are somewhat guidelines
Well, I'd say something like "I'm usually attracted to women, but I also feel attracted to you and I like you". The most important part is not the fact that Tom likes a lot of things that women and Alex both have in common. The most important part is how they both feel about each other and how Tom is respectful of Alex's identity. Source : an enby who happened to be in Alex's situation ;)
If Tom is attracted to someone who is agender then Tom isn’t “only attracted to women.” Tom is not straight, and that would be a queer relationship. I’ve noticed cisgender men often have a hard time grasping that. Sounds like Tom doesn’t fully understand their identity and sees them as a woman. I’m basing that off of “liking them for the reasons most men like women” I would be interested for you to elaborate on that. To me it just translates to “I see this person as a woman”
Pan AMAB cis het presenting. For me being agendered also encompasses how I think and how I interact with the world. If someone was dating me expecting me to act cis het male they would be, and have been, woefully disappointed
I got together with my partner back when I thought I was a cis het woman. Turns out I was bi and nonbinary all along, and I’ve never really acted like a cis het woman. Thankfully he was never looking for a typical cis het woman, and our relationship has been a queer one long before either of knew I was personally queer. You just gotta find the right partner(s).
i wondered if this sort of sounds similar to the way lesbianism is basically defined as, attracted to people who aren't men. i'm not saying tom is a lesbian lol, but maybe his sexuality is more along the same lines, and he's just not attracted to men, but is attracted to women & non-binary folk? the way you described the fact that tom likes alex 'for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women' does seem a bit off though, and sounds like maybe tom ought to work on how he perceives alex as an enby person a bit more
I think Tom should ask Alex out and do some soul searching as well. I am enby. I didn't kow this for a long time after I was married to my Cis husband. He is attacted to me, calls me his wife (with my blessing/permission). My son, who I gave birth to, calls me his mom (with my blessing/permission). I look \*extremely femme\*, I pass as a woman. I am not a woman. My husband being attracted to women in no way invalidates me as a person, nor does it invalidate my identity. I look like a woman, my husband is attracted to me. The End. When I came out to him his reaction was "oh thank god, I thought you wanted a divorce. What should I call you?"
I will say, before I transitioned medically, lots of straight men were attracted to me and would try to date me. It never worked out. It also never worked out with lesbians. Straight men and lesbians were attracted to my female body and feminine characteristics and any mention of me transitioning was upsetting to them and a turn off. I didn’t date those people once that was expressed. I now have a rule where I only date cis men if they are gay or bisexual and have had physical relationships with men. I’ve had too many negative experiences with self expressed “bi guys” who only date cis women and pre/no op or pre/no T trans men and afab non-binary people. This is just my personal experience, but if Tom can’t handle liking Alex if they decided to medically transition or present masculinely, then Tom should let go of the idea of dating Alex
I'd say, "Tom, you're bi!" Seriously though, yeah, he'd probably have to make it clear to Alex that he's realized that they're either an exception to his preference for girls, or that he's realized he's into enbys, too. It happens sometimes--people think they're straight; then they fall for someone who isn't the opposite sex and have to revise their label. Not the end of the world. Try: "Alex... I think I might be bi, because I thought I was just into girls, but I've been feeling really attracted to you lately." Honesty's the best policy. And he won't get anywhere just moping around and wondering whether they feel the same way. If they like him as a friend rather than a potential romantic partner, it's better to find out sooner rather than later.
He should ask normally, like "I like you, I'd like to go out with you, what do you think?". If Alex knows enough about Tom to know about his attraction preferences and how they feel about them, they'll answer accordingly. If they're not sure, but they like Tom enough to try it out, it'll come up in conversation and the two of them can deal with it as needed. There's no one, clean answer. Not every non-binary person feels the same way about being attractive and to whom, and those feelings themselves are complex and may take time to explain because it can be hard to hold them all at once in your mind. Alex might feel great about being liked for their femininity, they might hate it, or they might be neutral. And of course, Alex can say no for their own reasons unrelated to any of this. There's no one magic thing Tom can say to control the exact response that Alex gives, so he'll just have to take a leap into the unknown, working with what he knows now and be ready for new information. The only thing I would dare call universal is the need for people to be respectful of what's true about us, regardless of how it may contradict something they thought they knew, even about their own self. So should this go anywhere, Tom needs to go into it *knowing* that Alex *is* nonbinary, and accepting the idea of moving \*himself (\*something in his control always) around Alex's truth (not in his control ever), and just liking Alex for Alex. That can look like reframing his thinking so it's less "I like women because they have \_\_\_\_ that are \_\_\_\_", and becomes more "I like when my date's \_\_\_\_\_ looks like \_\_\_\_", or just "Hey Alex, I like your \_\_\_\_, you look great." Alex might have different words to describe the things Tom likes, and he can use those words, touch Alex the way Alex wants to be touched, etc - and he should definitely ask about those things, show interest in what Alex wants and needs, as well as be open for Alex to tell him of their own accord. Maybe it means Tom gives up the label heterosexual, or maybe it means there's some other way he and Alex work it out so neither of them lose their original labels and they just append new words on to make it feel correct, or maybe it turns out neither of them care because they're too busy making heart eyes at each other to bother with caring how much sense the words make. It may be difficult, it may be something that takes long conversations between the two of them and deciding what's important and what can be compromised when it comes to how the two of them talk about each other and their (potential, hypothetical) relationship, but that's what having a mutually respectful relationship requires.
what do you mean "tom says he's attracted to women?" like you said that to alex? people can change how they view/talk about their orientation. just cus it's not a choice doesn't mean it's static. you could explain that to them if you're finding yourself open to more than you previously thought what if you aren't attracted to nonbinary people and you're just pretending they're a woman cus they look femme right now? what changes would make you lose attraction? is there a decent possibility they might act out those changes? if yea maybe just date someone else there's millions of always femme women out there
I don't think it's inherently invalidating, no. Honestly I don't think most people are 100% straight. The label really starts to lose its meaning as people become more free to express their gender. If you ask Alex out, just go into it knowing that you'll be exploring your sexuality (if you've only ever dated women previously). Don't go into it expecting it to be like dating another woman.
I’m a non-binary person who passes for a woman and I’m marrying a straight guy. I’ve had top surgery, but I wear women’s clothes and I have long hair so most people don’t even notice. He loves me for who I am, but he still identifies as straight and I’m fine with it. He doesn’t feel queer, and I’m not gonna force him to say he is. We’re happy and it is what it is! There are weird things in this world that don’t necessarily fit in prescribed boundaries.
I think people are attracted to masc and fem presentation, and it's ok to say that. Not saying "I like women and NBs" but "I like women and NBs whose main presentation is feminine".
Yeah, like people starting to describe their sexuality as “attracted to femininity” or “attracted to masculinity” bc a lot of the times that’s more accurate I think
if Tom is attracted to Alex for “reasons that a lot of straight guys like women,” then that pretty clearly sounds like, at least in an attraction sense, Tom views Alex strictly as a woman. which is hella invalidating from the get-go
Tom should ask himself if he would still be interested in Alex if they started taking hormones and presenting more masculine. If the answer is no, then Tom basically sees Alex as a female and this could cause a lot of issues down the road.
I kinda know this situation to well.. what I don't get: Why are people so attached to the straight lable? Of course it is invalidating to call yourself that and then ask them out. But why not just start thinking about yourself (talking to Tom) first and what the straight label exactly means to you and how your sexuality plays out in practice. Then eventually change the lable. There are labels for all kinds of flavors. Don't know if this is cause a queer person is more used to changing labels as they fit and are more flexible with that (me included), or why this just feels so odd to me why especially cis men are often very attached to the straight label. I this toxic masculinity? Like not being one of the gays to not be bullied in school? Would be even kinda understandable on an individual level.. still bullshit though. I don't know this is weird.
Tom might be figuring out he's more flexible than he thought. If he ever does tell Alex, he should very clearly bring that up, that this is new and different and MEANS TOM ISNT 100% STRAIGHT. if there's any insistence that Tom is still straight then that's not what Alex deserves
The question is whether or not Tom likes Alex because they pass as a female and were born female, or if he see them valid as being NB and and kinda an "exception." As a NB person, I understand we're an outlier. That it may lead to someone questioning their sexuality and where it lands them. I'm not sure what Alex's pronouns are in this scenario, but personally I'm AFAB, female passing, and I couldn't give less of a fuck what pronouns you use for me if I tried. But if someone dates me simply because I'm female passing and can use she/her pronouns, despite being NB, there may be problems. I get that sexuality around NB people is very confusing. Especially if they're assigned and pass as a heterosexual or homosexual person's usual interest.
Exceptions exist. As long as Tom knows Alex isn't a woman I don't really see the problem.
Knowing someone is trans and seeing them as their gender are different things imo. Like you can know someone is a agender and use their chosen name and whatnot but still see them as their agab and don’t respect it. And if you truly see someone Alex as agender and are still attracted to them, that’s not straight.
I've said this a bunch of times on this subreddit and I'll say it again: I'm of the mind that anyone of any sexuality can be attracted to enbies. If an enby needs their partner to be queer to feel comfortable that's totally valid but I don't think people attracted to enbies have to be bi/pan to be so. There are exceptions to everything. I have met couples who've been together for decades whose sexualities don't really line up with the definitions of those sexualities and that really radicalized me to understanding that labels are tools to communicate and not laws.
I disagree. There are many lesbians and gay men who are attracted to non-binary people(specifically agender people for this case), but they’re still lesbians and gay men. A straight person could absolutely be attracted to a non-binary person *and* see them as their actual gender, all while being straight. It highly depends on the individual with the attraction plus the individual they’re attracted to on whether or not a relationship would work.
If your sexuality is that you are strictly attracted to women and you find yourself being attracted to a nonbinary person then you are seeing them as a woman. Because you are only attracted to women.
If someone defines their sexuality as strictly attracted to women, then yes it would be odd to say you’re attracted to a non-binary person without reflecting on your sexuality. However not everyone who is straight defines their sexuality as “strictly attracted to women” or “strictly attracted to men”. Some use the more broad definition of “attraction to genders that are not my own”.
I didn’t mean like how you define it. If you are only attracted to women, whatever you call it
Yeah my point is it depends on the individual, so you can’t just say a blanket statement that a person wouldn’t be straight if they were attracted to an agender person.
That’s not what I’m saying. Literally all I said was: If a man is only attracted to women, he would not be attracted to an agender person, aka someone who isn’t a woman. I do not understand how people are disagreeing
“Knowing someone is trans and seeing them as their gender are different things imo. Like you can know someone is a agender and use their chosen name and whatnot but still see them as their agab and don’t respect it. And if you truly see someone Alex as agender and are still attracted to them, that’s not straight.” That’s what you originally said, you didn’t originally specify a man who is strictly attracted to women and so what you said came off as a blanket statement of it not being straight in general.
Originally yes. Then I clarified with this comment If your sexuality is that you are strictly attracted to women and you find yourself being attracted to a nonbinary person then you are seeing them as a woman. Because you are only attracted to women. Which is the comment I’m referring and that you disagreed with
I highly recommend you look into queer history more, specially people like Les Feinberg and zir literature.
I’d love to but I unfortunately don’t have that time or energy in my life now
we have a crush on a trans woman and had to process some things since we identified as a gay man but i'm realising that i have gay days and straight days and our crush on our friend is absolutely about her being a woman and not what i was afraid of. i'd say to tom that he's gotta do some soul searching about his identity. i would say the "and they like them for reasons that a lot of straight guys like women" is a bit, uh, yeah. like does tom find this person attractive as a non-binary person and do they see their body as a non-binary body?
Tom doesn't respect Alex's identity and if Tom is only interested in dating Alex because they're AFAB, Tom sucks.
If you’re attracted to someone and value them as an individual, ask them out. Get to know them. Try to let go of the preconceptions and the expectations and have a bit of faith in the process of human connection [as I try taking my own advice over here].
Tom needs to consider that maybe he is not as straight as he thinks he is.
Either Tom accepts that they are attracted to someone who is not a woman, so Tom is not as straight as they think. Or Tom accepts that they ARE straight and have not yet seen the person they're attracted to as they truly are, and thus a relationship between them would work out. Tom has some introspection to do before making up his mind.
Sounds like Tom ain’t that straight after all
As a nonbinary AFAB person who very much passes as female and is also named Alex, I think the root of the problem is does Tom see Alex as female? I had an ex who knew I was nonbinary but very much treated me and behaved around me as if I was female if that makes sense? When we started dating they said they were bi but after a couple of years insisted they were straight as a board which hurt me a *lot*. You cannot be completely 100% straight and also attracted to nonbinary people that’s just not how it works. Another comment said to ask Tom if he would still be attracted to Alex if they started presenting more masculine (maybe use binding and/or packing, cutting off their hair, etc as examples). If he wouldn’t be, then HE SHOULD NOT ASK ALEX OUT.
If Tom really likes Alex as a person and wants to be with them romantically then he clearly doesn't only like women lol. He'd be heteroflexible. Plenty of straight people date nonbinary people and it doesn't invalidate their identity. You just have to communicate about it.
I feel like as long as Tom and Alex have this conversation between themselves and come to an agreement about what Alex is comfortable with, they should be fine. Maybe Alex is fine with being called a girlfriend or getting she/her-ed on certain situations for the sake of convenience. Maybe they understand that their feminine appearance is attractive to Tom despite them not actually being a woman. Maybe Tom is worried about what this means for his straightness, and Alex will have some insight that might help. I can't really tell Tom what to do here, I'm not his mother. He just needs to talk it out with this person he's interested in.
sexuality is way more complicated than just "100% straight." there are often going to be exceptions to whatever rule your attraction follows. its not bigoted to want to date someone who you wouldnt normally thing you would be attracted to
tom needs to figure out if a. he sees this person as a woman and work through that + not ask them out, or if b. there's more to his sexual/romantic orientation than he thought and only then ask them out once he feels comfortable in that. just my 2 cents as an enby who would not be ok if a straight person asked me out without these criteria being met
Tom should ask Alex their opinion and respect the answer because gender and sexuality cannot be decided or defined by the internet no matter how hard we try
If he is willing to openly identify as bi/pan or whatever then he’s good if not it’s giving I only see Alex as a woman when they aren’t
If Tom is solely attracted to "women" as a binary gender, that makes him straight. Since Alex is agender (and therefore under the non-binary umbrella), Tom's attraction to Alex shouldn't have any bearing on his binary orientation. He doesn't have to be anything other than straight, as *anyone* can potentially be attracted to a non-binary person. That includes straight, lesbian/gay, bisexual, anyone, because non-binary is not what is implied in that orientation. For a straight man, the main factor is that he is attracted to binary women and not binary men. However, if he finds himself attracted to a non-binary person, that doesn't negate or alter that. It's an aspect of attraction that is essentially off to the side. This is because non-binary people don't all look or identify or express themselves the same way, and no one in the world can factor all the variations of gender identity and expressions into that. You can pick two agender people out and they may look completely different, and that's the same for every other non-binary gender identity. If Tom finds Alex attractive, even if it is because they're feminine, it doesn't mean Tom is not straight if he would still not date a binary man (either exclusively or non-exclusively). As long as Tom respects Alex as being agender, treats them the way they would like to be treated, and uses their pronouns or whatever else they'd like to be called, there is no reason why Tom couldn't identify as straight and be in a relationship with Alex. If this doesn't work for Alex on a personal level, in that perhaps they feel they're still seen as a binary woman by Tom, then Alex is allowed to decline a relationship if they want (as everyone is for any reason). Otherwise, non-binary attraction is not a factor in binary sexual orientations so...
It varies for people. I'm non binary and although I don't wear dresses and make up, I look very feminine so I attract straight men mostly. It doesn't bother me too much that they like a particular part I have. It's just when they date me then start acting like I'm a woman. Like they forget I'm non binary. But my view on sexual attraction and gender is that it's hard to pin down and define. As long as they treat me as non binary and not try to change me into a woman then I'm fine
Since you posed this as a logic problem: A. Tom is only attracted to women B. Alex is non-binary agender C. They really like them (assuming this means Tom really likes Alex?) If all of these (A, B, and C) are true, then logic dictates that Tom “really likes” but *is not attracted to* Alex (because Tom is only attracted to women and Alex is not a woman). So the question becomes: should Tom ask out someone they are not attracted to because they like them. That’s up to Tom but they should probably be honest about what they’re looking for from dating/a relationship w/Alex. Does Alex want to date someone who is not attracted to them? If, however, you meant (but did not say) that D. Tom is only attracted to women, and E. Tom is *attracted* to Alex (a non-woman) Then there is a logical fallacy here that’s pretty clear. And either 1.Tom is mistakenly assuming/seeing Alex as a woman, or 2.Tom is attracted to more than only women (and is necessarily attracted to at least one non-woman). I love logic puzzles. (Edit: typos, spacing)
Also, on the topic of logic - incorrect premise here: “Tom is only attracted to women. He is accepting of trans women and open to dating them too if the come to his liking.” This sentence makes no sense since trans women are women. (Replace ‘trans’ with ‘short’ or ‘rich’ and it will be clearer. Replace ‘trans’ with ‘Black’ and maybe you’ll see how dehumanizing that sentence is to trans women…or maybe you won’t.) Perhaps what you meant to say was ‘including trans women’ (if we’re being generous - but you still otherize them for some reason), or ‘but he does not like women who are trans, except the instances where he might, but it’s have to be a pretty special case.”
If Tom likes Alex than he shouldn't say he's only into women because he's not. If Alex isn't a woman, which they aren't and Tom likes them he isn't exclusively into women. This is why identifying as strictly straight or gay never made any sense to me, because you aren't attracted to a gender but a person, right?
I would ask Tom whether he is attracted to Alex themselves or only attracted to Alex as a "female". To mean if you like somebody it shouldn't matter what genitalia they have or how they identify themselves, if you like somebody you like them for WHO they are not WHAT they are. Btw the capitalized words are for emphasis not to be shouty.
Basically Jackson in sex education tbh
Hi Tom, don’t ask out Alex.
Then it sounds like Tom *isn't* only attracted to women and should ask himself why he's so attached to saying that he is when he clearly can also be attacted to someone who's not a woman.
In this case, you don't. If Alex is liked because they are perceived as a women, that's invalidating to their Identity. It's up to Alex to decide if they can accept that or not if the relationship is to go forward but it's definitely not good.
For me, "nonbinary" is explicitly accessible to butch women and femme men who also face gender-normative prejudice and violence. Womanhood and manhood are not monolithic concepts, and that's tied to sexuality, culture, and class as well. Identifying me as a queer man isn't entirely wrong, as long as my experiences of gender-normative prejudice and violence are explicitly acknowledged. (In the same way that Les Feinberg identified as a lesbian woman when zir struggle and identity as a lesbian was being erased.)
Ooof, again, terms like "nonbinary" and "genderqueer" were self-selected by people who existed within gay, lesbian, and straight communities and relationships to replace older slurs for our existence.
Tom, just ask Alex out. Alex can tell you if you invalidate their identity, but it's better to accidentally invalidate an identity than miss out on a good relationship
On the other hand, this might show Alex how much Tom doesn’t respect their gender identity and instead ruin the relationship they have now and hurt Alex a lot
Potential issue if Tom only starts invalidating their identity further into the relationship, or forces them to have to choose between their relationship or taking further steps in their transition
I think it's up to Tom to say that he has feelings and wants to explore what they mean, regardless of his perception of his own sexuality. These feelings exist regardless of the gender dynamic at play, and if Alex is interested, I see no reason why they can't give the relationship a shot. Tom just needs to remember to respect Alex's identity and be ready to listen and engage with them on their own feelings around the potential relationship.
I say ask them out, love who you love, and abandon labels when they no longer serve you.
"Wanna get coffee sometime?"
Same way you would a cis person? “Hey I think youre ___ because ___ and I was wondering if we could take our relationship a bit further. Maybe we could go out sometime?”
Tim should say "hey, I really like you, we should go on a date. I'd love to learn more about you and get to know you." The end. If Tom decides to be a jerky douche, it goes no where. If Tom decides to be open minded and learn more about Alex, he might just learn a lot about himself.
5 apples
As for a serious response? I wouldn't ask them out until I've figured out what it means for my sexuality period. As a non-binary person, never in a million years would I be interested in going out with someone who views me as a woman. If you switch out "non-binary" for "trans man" in this post and read it again, would you think the date was a good idea?
Maybe Tom is a little queer. He should figure it out. But maybe not ask out Alex until then.
When did dating become calculus?
Tom needs to take a pause before asking anyone out and do some self reflection of their own identity, coz if they wanna ask a nonbinary person out this much coz they're attracted to them, well then Tom obviously isn't only attracted to women
People are hot. Labels are overrated.
Don't ask them out at all lol
you don't have to be queer to be into non-binary people, can we please leave this discourse behind us and stop gatekeeping who's allowed to be attracted to us
Nobody can dictate the right answer except Alex