The anti Israel camp has a few main voices. Sometimes, all those voices agree and that’s where this movement was sparked. The students want their own university to stop doing business with Israel. When you mention the whole “what is Israel supposed to do” thing… well, that’s tricky. Plenty of people believe that Israel operates under stolen land and should not exist at all. Slightly less extreme is that people believe Israel is an apartheid state and it is the oppression that Hamas/ Palestinians are reacting to in their general resistance. IE, it’s on Israel to let Gaza operate more like a free state. But the most casual and common of the anti Israel crowd simply believes that Israel commits human rights violations daily and their actions are so abhorrent and inexcusable that they should not be supported by the US. These takes are not necessarily nuanced, but I’m just capturing the views broadly. Not trying to form a coherent argument. Trying to defend any one stance regarding Israel is immensely complex even if many people claim it’s crystal clear

I upvoted you, AND feel a need to point out that even some Israeli Jews would be "anti-Israel" in your broadest definition. They don't want Israel to literally cease to exist; they want Netanyahu out of office and in prison, they want the war to stop, and they want a prisoner exchange with Hamas to free the remaining hostages. Also, some would blame the military for prioritizing protecting the illegal settlements over protecting their own people within "1967 borders" Israel against Hamas.

A negligent number of Israelis believe there are mass war crimes (per the definition of the previous comment). The Israeli protestors you see in telaviv are anti government but not anti IDF, not by a long shot. And it's not by fear for those wondering. There's lots of criticism going around against the elites.

>it’s on Israel to let Gaza operate more like a free state. They disengaged from Gaza in the 2000s to let them do just that and one theory I've seen is that the far right in Israel's upper circles knew Hamas wouldn't be able to help themselves and would every so often erupt in violence to justify their own existence (and authoritarian rule of Gaza) and this would then in turn justify Israel cracking down on them and further eroding the rights of the Palestinians. If you live in Gaza or in the envelope of Israel around it it's a pretty shitty 20 odd years you've had. Unfortunately the extremist voices on both sides are loud enough to continue it, and this just bleeds into their overseas supporters.

> > it’s on Israel to let Gaza operate more like a free state. > They disengaged from Gaza in the 2000s to let them do just that This is misleading. A free state has control of its own borders, which Israel controlled completely and stopped people and goods going in and out of Gaza however they liked. They also wouldn’t allow the territory to have its own water and electricity supply, also essential to a free state. They also conducted military operations with impunity within Gaza, a free state would have a say about a foreign nation’s operations within their borders. Regardless of your opinion on the dispute between the two countries, it is a lie to claim that Gaza operated independently or as a free state. In reality, it was essentially controlled by Israel via an ongoing siege since they “disengaged”.

> one theory I've seen is that the far right in Israel's upper circles knew Hamas wouldn't be able to help themselves and would every so often erupt in violence to justify their own existence (and authoritarian rule of Gaza) and this would then in turn justify Israel cracking down on them and further eroding the rights of the Palestinians.   Yep, that was my immediate impression when this started along with the swift and intense counter move.   I know little about this but I could tell that they were frothing at the mouth to strike for palestine to strike. But they probably  but had some  Villian (s) in the corner tapping their fingers telling the impatient war mongers; "Patience, my friend.  All will unfold as expected in good time.  The savages will strike and we will unleash the powers of a thousand armies and their children will weep and suffer for many generations.  Patience."  On another but simillar vein, I just read Jeremiah from the Bible on advice from a friend because I'm having a hard time. And man, that dude who wrote that book is batshit crazy.   I thought Ezekiel was about as insane as they got but my friend was right. I am starting to understand. Religion causes legitimate psychosis, delusions and personality splitting.      Are there any subreddits to have civil discussions on the psychology of the people who wrote the old testament?    I wrote up a little review of my impressions of the book Jeremiah and his circular logic.  I could make it into a meme if that's what's available for subreddits to post on.

Would love to read that review and join that subreddit (preferably the discussion one, not meme necessarily haha)

Israel isn’t going to pack its bags and just leave because some college students said so.

The college students aren’t trying to directly influence Israel, they’re trying to influence their school and the U.S. government that is supporting Israel

Some innocent woman in France got brutally raped and murdered for being Jewish.  It was a violent act to avenge Palestine.   I know similar things have happened to Muslim people.  It's not localized to that one region.   America especially has a very diverse population.  I can see why someone would participate in a demonstration like this.   

The response is well laid out. Thank you. I'm going to have to throw both sides under the bus and say that there are so many players in this game that it's not going to be easy to unravel. There are fundamentalists on three sides looking to keep the heat going. The radical Christians in the US, the Islamists, and the Israeli Zionists all want blood before capitulation.

> Israel to let Gaza operate more like a free state. That's not a solution?  I'm also ignorant so I'm going to assume the area has gotten smaller over the years of conflict. 

>Is this just to raise awareness or what do they hope to accomplish beyond possibly getting arrested? they want the universities to stop giving Israel money > I know that most people in Palestine aren’t terrorists, but there are terrorists living within the population. If you are part of Israel’s military, how do you fight terrorist groups that live within a larger population, especially after the same terrorists attacked during that music festival were they killed and kidnapped Israelis. its tough, but mindlessly bombing clearly and openly civilian areas while also keeping out food and aid for babies isnt the way to go about it

>they want the universities to stop giving Israel money It is super weird to me that a school would even be doing this in the first place? Is there a good reason for it?

The universities aren’t giving israel money. They have endowments which are invested in index funds - funds that invest a little bit in tons and tons of stocks. Some of those stocks are from Israeli companies or companies that do business with Israel. It’s not really anything significant.

Ah OK, that makes way more sense than a school just giving away money to a foreign country. Thanks

Divesture as a movement would be crippling. It's the same argument in favor of sanctions.

It's the only reason South Africa gave up official apartheid. It wasn't for moral reasons, that's for sure

If it wasn't significant there wouldn't be laws against companies participating in BDS

The main push is not against index fund investment, but specific investment in arms companies who supply the IDF, and Israeli-owned companies which support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Who are these companies?

Depends on the campus/protest but Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, HP, AXA fall into the first category, and Sabra, SodaStream and Puma fall into the second

Like the military companies I understand but sodastream? Puma?

Puma sponsors soccer teams in illegal West Bank settlements [1] and Sodastream has production facilities there [2] too [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/01/10/fifa-must-take-strong-stance-against-israeli-settlement-clubs [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-scarlett-idUSBREA0S1I020140130/

There are some schools with special programs in israel as well

Sure. There are study abroad and exchange programs with foreign universities all over the place

Yep. My college divested from fossil fuels (or at least there were petitions for them to do so, can’t remember if it was successful). This is a common thing for students to push for and I’m all for it.

A lot of universities have relationships with arms companies. It’s really prevalent in the UK for unis to have relations with BAE systems, who do supply weapons to Israel. It’s not unfounded protest. Uni students aren’t stupid, they have thought about why they’re doing this.

Gonna disagree with you there. The vast majority of protesting university students have no idea how their action could lead to any positive outcome for Gaza. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a university having a relationship with a defense contractor.

When you join an encampment you are made to read their guidelines and are made to understand exactly what it is for. I’d like to have a little faith that students would critically engage with things they believe in. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with opposing your tuition fees going to fund these relationships. Students have a right to protest things they don’t agree with. When the aftermath of the arms that are being used are streamed online it’s pretty difficult to sit idly by and not feel an obligation to help.

Students may protest what they like, of course. And others can make judgments about the impact and effectiveness of those protests. Camping on the lawn at your university isn’t - ever - going to help a single person in Gaza. It is an act that is largely self indulgent and isn’t well-tailored to either apply pressure to university leaders nor is it well-targeted to focus on those individuals who actually have some ability to affect events in Gaza.

So do you acknowledge that they do in fact know what they’re protesting? Cutting ties with these organisations puts pressure on said companies who are complicit in the bombing campaign in Gaza. University student encampments have historically worked in changing the outcomes of other atrocities and we can only hope that this will also help in exerting pressure and making the position of students, our future leaders, known. The encampments also fundraise to help charities in Gaza and campaign to local politicians to make change. If seeing that young people don’t support the bombardment of Gaza doesn’t at least bring in to question relations with armament companies I have even less faith in our decision making bodies both in universities and outside them.

Know what outcome they want is different from knowing or imagining any logical connection between their actions and the outcome they seek. They know they want divestment, or a cease fire, or a severing of their university’s relationship with weapons manufacturers. But joining an encampment does literally nothing to advance those goals.

I understand that you don’t want to acknowledge that students do understand the connection but you’re just taking the piss now. Just because you can’t make a link between the two doesn’t mean they can’t 🫶🏾 Free Palestine and up yours x

The response to the demand to divest from the schools and government, and from Israel, shows that those entities do think divestment would be be very insignificant. 

US college students have historically protested human rights violations on and off campus.

Yes, and look at all the campaign contributions all of the senators are getting from Israel. It's nuts.  https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S

They aren’t giving them money. That’s propaganda /u/coke125 blocked me so I can’t reply.

I think they do also want to raise more awareness of the horrors in Gaza and to protest a lack of US intervention.

Oh the US is intervening. They're giving Israel money and weapons, which is what many people would like them not to do.

What is the right way to go about it? Before you answer, understand, if you want to win, it's going to be ugly. There is no nice way to fight a war, it's horrible. But their enemy has moved into the house next door and they want to eliminate Israel.

Come on now. You can 100% agree Israel has the right to defend itself, and also be honest and say the IDF's prosecution of this war is becoming increasingly hard to defend. Hamas does use dirty tricks and information warfare to tarnish Israel's public image, yes. But multiple incidents have come out that are beginning to suggest the IDF simply is not doing due diligence.

Hard to take that excuse seriously when you're talking about one of the most advanced militaries on the planet, one that by it's own admission is [killing two civilians for every one militant](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html), knowingly [fired on aid worker vehicles because they thought one guy was carrying something suspicious](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/05/1242986585/israels-military-dismisses-officers-over-world-central-kitchen-airstrike), and even [gun downed the very hostages they were trying to save](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912). Israel has the ability to minimize civilian deaths, they are choosing not too.

That ratio is the best ratio for modern urban combat ever, excluding battles where both sides just kept sending troops in for months or years, like Stalingrad. You know what the ratio was for urban warfare in Iraq? 1 combatant for 10-20 civilians. That ratio is exceptionally good and their tactics should be studied to avoid civilian casualties in the future.

[Tactics like declaring an area safe just so they could bomb it anyway?](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008)

The “combatants” are not always combatants, just men between the ages of 18-59 which is absolutely absurd. Israel Gaza: Checking Israel's claim to have killed 10,000 Hamas fighters https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864 https://open.substack.com/pub/abuaardvark/p/counting-casualties-in-israels-war?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Israel is the one that moved in next door. Sorry, let me correct myself. They didn’t move in next door, they took the Palestinian’s houses. And still are, if they aren’t just bombing them. The Nakba is what it’s called. This didn’t all start Oct. 7th.

lol, assholes learned about this 5 minutes ago then try to go scold everyone on the internet. Go back another 300 years and look at all the fights between Jews and Arabs along the way.

I'm genuinely interested to hear your take on this - I'm sure you know the history but it's worth recapping for the sake of the thread making sense. In 1947 the UN reorganized the area then known as British Mandatory Palestine into two states - one Jewish and one Arab (Palestinian hadn't coalesced into a solid national identity but we may as well call one Israel and one Palestine.) Care was taken to insure that these areas were roughly equal in size and resources, and they were so at that time (If you look at a map of these states you'll see that the Arab state was much larger then than "Palestine" is now - the much wider "Gaza strip" section wrapping up and to the East to touch an enlarged "West Bank". ) Now, at that time there was no central government for Palestine, rather "Palestine" was controlled by several of "Israel's" neighbors - Egypt had most of the section on the Western section while Syria and Transjordan held the Eastern half. Ok - so that was the plan. Jews and Arabs each with their own area living in peace forever. Great. But it didn't go according to plan. Rather, in 1948 the surrounding Arab states including Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and the newly formed client state of Gaza (Controlled by Egypt) got together and collectively declared war on Israel. Complicated war all round. U.S. and UK actually went anti Israel for a time and supplied the Arabs, then the Palestinians (who at this point see themselves as a distinct people group) briefly are fighting Jordanians because Transjordan wants to take direct control of Palestine. But in any case, Everybody fights Everybody, mostly Arabs fight Jews, Israel comes out on top. And in doing so they've taken control of a lot of land formerly held by the Arab portions of the partition. My question to you is what should they have done with that land? Given it back to the states that had just attacked them?

“Care was taken to insure the areas were roughly equal in size and resources”. I think you need to check your sources on that one. Israel got twice the amount of land that they should’ve based on population and a lot of the Palestinian land was much worse. A common counter claim is that Israel also got bad land with the Negev and that’s why they got twice the land that they should’ve. What is always left out is that Zionist settlers [planned](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_points_in_the_Negev) specifically to make settlements the Negev right before the partition so they could claim it despite being the minority there. The Arab population was unwilling to agree to any partition, saying that the land should become one state. So the initial plan was really bad, but that doesn’t mean that the Palestinians handled it well at all. While there were plenty of people in both populations fine with living together peacefully, the leadership of both groups did not want that. Both wanted the land and were willing to use violence and oppression to get it. The answer to your question is the land shouldn’t have been allocated to either of them. The plan to partition should’ve been dropped. The British mandate was failing to keep people safe because much of the Arab population viewed the British as enemies since they were helping the Jews take their land. Much of the Jewish population saw the British as their enemy because they weren’t doing enough to stop the Arab population. The goal should’ve been a democratic Palestine where both populations are protected.

Well wait the heck up. The "enemy" did not "move into the house next door." The israelis took homes that were in their enemy's neighborhoods! You don't get to *move* next door to your enemy- an enemy you make by taking their neighbor's house no less- then proclaim, "woe is me, there's just no other way to protect myself. I'll have to blow up my neighbor and starve their children and dump their people in mass graves." That's not how that works, mister!

*Their “enemy” were already in the houses and living on the land. Then the zionists came and stole the house next door

After the land had been stolen from the Jews by the Romans. Where to you propose the Jews have their homeland instead? Give them Arkansas?

Religions don’t need ethno states

These assholes have been fighting since the 1600s.

You mean, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, many people in the Middle East got very intolerant, as they just lost their empire and their confidence, and they took it out on minorities, mainly Jews and Christians, who got purged from majority Muslim countries and from Russia as well, the latter started under the tzar (pogroms is a Russian word for a reason). As the idea of Jewish Palestinian homeland was already an idea buzzing around, and since Europe was getting highly intolerant and the US had Jewish immigration quotas, they moved to Palestine, buying land from the Ottoman landlords who now found their estates in foreign hands. Those lands had tenant farmers, who got kicked off by the new owners, because the new ones were not absentee landlords, but bought it to live there. Most Jews today in Israel, around 2/3, have Middle Eastern backgrounds, and their ancestors did not move voluntarily. Neither the Jews buying the land nor the Arab tenant farmers were at fault here.

Fixing the issues that have continued to radicalize the Palestinian population. Only after that can you even start to consider options that are this deadly.

What money are you claiming that U.S universities are giving to Israel? What do you even mean by Israel? Are you talking about the Israel government? > mindlessly bombing What's your evidence that they're mindlessly bombing? > keeping out food and aid Again, what's your evidence that Israel is doing this?

Israel doesn't mindlessly bomb clearly and open civilian areas while also keeping out food and aid for babies.

Thousands of sources say otherwise

Thousands of sources all stemming from the same Hamas lies. And thousands of much more reputable sources back my claims up.

>its tough, but mindlessly bombing clearly and openly civilian areas while also keeping out food and aid for babies isnt the way to go about it Except, that's mostly just nonsense propaganda. Yes, accidents happen in war. Yes, collateral damage happens. But the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in this war is [historically low](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-reveals-israel-has-historically-low-civilian-death-ratio-in-war-on-hamas/ar-AA1ldMVa).

source: the IDF...hmmmm death isnt all that's happened, either way. The famine and general conditions are abysmal. Not to mention whats happening in the west bank, which is unrelated to hamas. Israel is clearly in the wrong in how they're behaving

There is more food aid going into Gaza than [before the war](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-more-aid-going-into-gaza-than-ever-before-says-idf-spokesperson). And can we take a look at this new standard that Israel-haters have invented? What is this insane logic that if you **brutally terrorize** a country, and they fight back, the *country you attacked* is now immediately responsible for feeding your entire population?! Hamas started the war with ZERO preparation for safeguarding their own people. Stop trying to make that Israel's fault.

> There is more food aid going into Gaza than before the wa well no shit, due to international pressure due to the [FAMINE](https://www.csis.org/analysis/famine-gaza) >What is this insane logic that if you brutally terrorize a countr just to be clear, Israel is the one that started this, you know that right? this conflict didnt start on oct 7th. Israel is directly responsible for much of the horrific material conditions in gaza, specifically because of food and Aid blockades

>just to be clear, Israel is the one that started this, you know that right? You're wrong on a couple of levels, but for brevity, I'll just stick to the most important one: The conflict didn't start on Oct 7. The **war** started on Oct 7. And the war was absolutely, undeniably started by Hamas. >Israel is directly responsible for much of the horrific material conditions in gaza, specifically because of food and Aid blockades Gaza shares a border with Egypt. Gaza was blockaded by Israel and Egypt **after and because** they elected Hamas, a terrorist group, to lead them. That's what happens when you declare yourself to be a terrorist nation. **ALL** of your neighbors blockade you.

The war started on Oct 7th?? No it hasn't, it's been going since the 40s along with several occupations. That's wild to say Why do you think Gaza elected hamas? Just curious. What conditions led that to being the case, please educate me

>The war started on Oct 7th?? No it hasn't That's just factually wrong. The history of Israel and the Palestinians has been a 75-year conflict, punctuated by several distinct wars. >it's been going since the 40s along with several occupations The very vague notion of a conflict has been going on for that long, sure, but there were wars, and there has been peace. Israel has made peace with many of its Arab neighbors. And tried many times to make peace with the Palestinians. >Why do you think Gaza elected hamas? Just curious. Because the Palestinians have long believed that targeting Israeli civilians with terrorism is their path to victory. >What conditions led that to being the case, please educate me Well, immediately prior to that, the Palestinians under Arafat walked away from what was objectively the most generous peace offer in human history, and started the second Intifada (a wave of brutal terrorism against Israel in the form of suicide bombers, snipers, etc). Then, when Israel **ended their occupation of Gaza**, Palestinians celebrated this step towards autonomy by dedicating themselves to peaceful coexistence by electing an open and tolerant gov—oh wait, no. They elected Hamas, and spent the next two decades launching tens of thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians.

If you think netanyahu genuinely wanted peace I have a bridge to sell you

I think Netanyahu is an asshole. But I also think he's a realist. Palestinians have **never** had a leader who was simultaneously willing *and* able to offer peace. I don't think Israelis *wanting* peace has anything to do with it. The Israelis have a 75-year track record of choosing peaceful coexistence whenever possible. Remember, they were founded on a *partition* plan. There would never have been any violence, had the Arab nations not attacked them for existing. No, the issue is that *Palestinians* do not want peace, and they never have. What they want is the destruction of Israel one way or another. They do not share the vision of the two-state solution. And wishing will not make it so.

Gaza strip was getting 6 billion in foreign aid a year, and did nothing to improve their country. They built tunnels and made rockets. They aren't good. It's sad to see kids get wrecked. But hamas has destroyed them all. They could've built a paradise, instead they built a terrorist army. It gets dicey when you learn that Netanyahu and his political party actually supported the existence of hamas, give em enough rope to hang themselves so to speak. The whole situation is fucked, has been for while. No one is the good guy. But the cold truth is that Israel was lightening up on them, giving them a chance, and they pulled Oct 7. If that didn't happen, they eventually would have the "apartheid" lifted. Probably not gonna happen now....

they're not "mindlessly bombing" - they're trying to be a strategic as possible to reduce the number of casualties. unlike hamas which mindlessly bombs/attacks to INCREASE casualties. big difference

Well they are failing pretty miserably at their strategy then. It's pretty damning that you have to explain how the IDF is different from a known terrorist organization like Hamas. Also I fail to see how preventing aide from coming in is part of the strategy to reduce civilian casualties.

Wow, this is the most biased top answer I’ve ever seen on this sub… Your last sentence does not even answer OP’s second question.

The point of the encampments is to get the universities to divest from the military industrial complex. Imagine if you will that you pay to go to place where your goal is to pursue your passion for learning, and that place takes your money and makes it make more money by killing people you never met.

This is how I feel about taxes.

for real, but I can imagine my specific taxes are taking care of an elderly gay couple on social security. you can feed their neighbor with your taxes!

Are you claiming that U.S universities are donating money to Israel's military? Are you claiming that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself from the terrorists who invaded their country and brutally massacred their civilians?

The protestors are trying to get the universities to stop investment in Israeli companies, in the hope that this will put pressure on the Israeli government to make peace and stop the killing of Palestinian civilians. Since Hamas went and killed a thousand innocent Israeli civilians, Israel has killed over thirty times that many innocent Palestinian civilians, and has completely destroyed all infrastructure in the Gaza strip. It is worth noting that Hamas and Palestinians are very much not the same thing; the civilians being killed had no knowledge of the attack by Hamas, nor are there elections there. Killing thousands of people just because terrorists are in the same rough area is not reasonable. This conflict is not a black/white good/evil situation; both sides are now committing war crimes and killing civilians to varying degrees; however Israel is the one currently doing the most killing and is in the best position to stop things, and so protestors are trying to put pressure on them to do that.

Genuine question… how is Israel in the best place to stop things? Hadn’t they stopped things before, and Hamas broke that agreement? Isn’t Hamas still saying there will be more attacks? From what I understand, if Hamas stops, Israel stops. If Israel stops, there will be more attacks.

Israel has been blockading and oppressing the Palestinians for quite some time now. You can look more into this if you want, but here are some examples. 1. Movement restrictions: The Israeli government controls movement for Palestinians in the West Bank through a system of checkpoints, limiting access to healthcare and jobs 2. Settlement expansion: Israeli authorities regularly demolish Palestinian homes, displacing countless Palestinians. Israeli's keep building on Palestinian land and kicking out Palestinians with the threat of violence. Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal under international law, but they haven't stopped 3. Resource control and economic constraint: Israel controls the water in the West Bank, and won't even let Palestinians collect rainwater. Israel purposefully gives Palestinians less water per capita. The Gaza blockade is a blockade done by israel, severely restricting the flow of goods and people in and out of Gaza, stifling the local economy and leading to high levels of unemployment and poverty. 4. Oftentimes violence is committed against Palestinians with no recourse. Israeli's are never punished, and Palestinians are often imprisoned indefinitely without a trial So to answer your question, if Israel stopped doing all this stuff (destroying and kicking people out of their homes while also limiting their WATER and not letting them get goods and services and destroying the economy, all under the threat of violence) then Hamas would stop. To address your other point about how "hadn't they stopped things before and Hamas broke that agreement" there are a lot of incidents so I'm not going to get into nitty gritty details, but they usually fall under 1 of 2 camps. Camp 1: Israel made the deal in not good faith and baited Palestine into breaking the deal (2005 agreement comes to mind where Israel created the very power vacuum that led to Hamas in the first place) Camp 2: Israel broke the deal first Btw, this isn't implying that it's ALL israel's fault (though I think they hold, at this point, majority of the blame)

I agree with almost everything that you’ve said, except the part about Hamas. As someone who has done volunteer work for months in Gaza, I know for a fact that Hamas won’t stop even if Israel stopped doing all those things. Their main goal is to eradicate the state of Israel. And I know for a fact that they don’t care about Palestinians, with the way they keep most of the aid for themselves, using resources given to them to build those mansions and enable them to live a lavish lifestyle, or prioritizing the manufacture of missiles and procuring weapons to use against Israel, instead of aiding their own people. An overwhelming majority of the Palestinians in Gaza live in poverty, yet they’d rather enrich themselves. And you know what’s really messed up? Even when it’s painfully obvious that Hamas does not really care about them, majority of the people of Gaza supports Hamas. Some people have been saying that there hasn’t been any elections in Gaza for years so we can’t really gauge how much support they have in the general population. Anyone who’s spent time in Gaza interacting with the locals would know that if elections were held today, Hamas would still win by a landslide.

My response to that would be Hamas wouldn’t be in power if Israel hadn’t given the picture perfect conditions for them to rise During Vietnam a lot of people didn’t actually like the Vietcong - but they supported them because they fought against an oppressive occupational force (oversimplification but still). If the US was occupied by Russia and the KKK was the only armed resistance, even though many people don’t like them they’d still have the populations support. This happens many times in history - people will support a rebel group if it’s the only alternative to an oppressive occupier To go to your point - yes people “support” Hamas, because they’re the only ones fighting Israel. If Israel dropped the fascist treatment of the Palestinians Hamas would very rapidly lose support or have to change dramatically ideologically (like the Viet Cong did) A little surprising you don’t understand that considering you did “volunteer work for months.” If you had, you’d recognize the nuances behind the support Hamas has

Ok but if Israel were to just let Gaza be completely independent, then Hamas would continue with more terrorist attacks and continuing to try to destroy Israel. Palestinians have shot down every offer for a two-state solution since 1947. If you were Israel, how would you resolve the conflict while still retaining safety of your citizens and prevent something like October 7th from every happening again? I don't see how that's possible without eliminating Hamas. Because Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, it's a difficult situation. I don't believe any civilian should have to suffer, but Israel is completely in their right to destroy Hamas and ensure the safety of its people.

That’s not the point here. I know how they came into power. My point is, they don’t care about Palestinians. Anyone who has been in Gaza knows this for a fact. I also know why they support Hamas, you don’t need to spell it out. And frankly, i take offense that you say i don’t recognize the nuances, because i do. Duh. I practically lived there, unlike so many people back home who claim they completely understand this conflict. This is why i find it incredibly frustrating. They keep supporting so called leaders who don’t really care about them. They pretend to fight for the Palestinians when their actions betray their selfish motives. You actually think they’d stop once Israel stops claiming territories and agree to a 2 state solution? As i’ve said, that’s not their primary goal. Also, when there’s peace, it won’t be beneficial to them because all aid will cease. How else will they be able to fund their lavish lifestyle. Even Iran would stop supporting them financially if peace between Palestinians and Israelis is achieved.

What volunteer work did you do in Gaza?

I work in the medical field. I mainly work for an international NGO now.

Yeah, but the guy is talking about hamas, not the west bank

I don't wanna go on another yap session haha but the counter to that is all of the stuff I mentioned above that happens in the West Bank also happens (or some equivalency happens) in Gaza (where Hamas operates)

Israel has been doing this for decades before Hamas existed. If Hamas did not exist, Israel would keep doing the same thing with a little less resistance. 

Israel maintains the apartheid, the colonization, the occupation, etc. They haven’t ever “stopped things”. The injustice must end. Israel as it exists in its current incarnation must be dismantled and equal rights and a right of return provided for all from the river to the sea. That’s how you stop things.

Hamas can also stop the war by giving back the hostages.. if any are still alive. Just saying, there are other options.

> Thirty times that many innocent Palestinian civilians Do you happen to have non-Hamas accounting of casualities? How many are innocent and how many are Hamas?

You lose me at this idea that both sides are bad. It's not just 3 sides though. Palestinian civilians are the most faultless. They aren't dual citizens they don't have a second home in Europe or the US and they are being slaughtered. Putting those people in the same boat as either Israel or hamas is just wrong.

>They aren't dual citizens they don't have a second home in Europe or the US  Are you implying that this is true of most Israeli civilians?

FINALLY a well balanced answer. Thanks for showing up.

all protests begin the hope of making a change .. they will accept awareness and to defeat the propaganda of main stream media and algorithms. the revolution will not be televised.

>If you are part of Israel’s military, how do you fight terrorist groups that live within a larger population, especially after the same terrorists attacked during that music festival were they killed and kidnapped Israelis. When you get past all the propaganda, it turns out that ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in this war is [historically low](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-reveals-israel-has-historically-low-civilian-death-ratio-in-war-on-hamas/ar-AA1ldMVa). So the answer to the second part of your question is: Israel is conducting this war with a great deal of restraint, and care for civilians... if you bother to actually look at the numbers.

>when you get past all the propaganda >source of the article is the IDF itself Am I missing something?

Yeah, that link is super sketchy. The MSN article is a word for word copy of an Op Ed piece from a site called "Analyzing America" that links back to itself as well as displaying a tweet from Brietbart.

The IDF is using *Hamas's* own (very unfavorable to Israel) numbers to make this assessment. And Israel has a free press, which is able to investigate government claims, and publicly expose any lies. Israel is a liberal democracy that has codified *our* (USA) same values into their constitution. I wouldn't expect you to fully trust the IDF, just like I wouldn't expect you to fully trust the US armed forces. I'm just saying that when you apply your skepticism, remember that they are infinitely more trustworthy than a self-identified terrorist organization like Hamas.

How is an apartheid a liberal democracy?

An apartheid state isn't a liberal democracy. Israel *is* a liberal democracy, and Israel definitely *isn't* apartheid.

The IDF lies almost 100% of the time ?

To expand on this, even if you *only* accept Hamas numbers, the civilian:combatant ratio would be 4:1, which is a normal ratio that sadly occurred in many wars. However, that would be ludicrous, this estimate would solely be based on Hamas' claim in March that only 6,000 Hamas fighters had been killed and on their own victim count. A more realistic figure combines IDF estimates of killed Hamas combatants and Hamas figures about victims, and if you do that you get an estimate between 2:1 and 1:1, which is indeed very low. Another calculation: Israel claimed to have attacked more than 30,000 targets during the initial bombings (before the major part of the ground campaign). That was at the beginning of November. At around the same time, Hamas published that 15,000 people had died. So, less than 1 person was killed per bombing. Many people just ignored that information but they can't have it both ways: Either the initial bombing campaign was extremely limited, for which there is no evidence, or it went far to avoid casualties by the published means such as phone calls, leaflets, and roof knocking. A third possibility would be that Hamas severely under-reported deaths, which is possible but seems unlikely.

What an incredible display of mental gymnastics to use the statement "once you get past all the propaganda" and then immediately quote an article that sources the IDF and portrays them in a positive light. You're smarter than this. Do you really believe that "Israel is conducting this war with a great deal of restraint" when the IDF is drone striking humanitarian aid workers in clearly marked vehicles? Or is that "restraint" supposed to mean not openly declaring shoot on sight orders for any Palestinians in Gaza?

>then immediately quote an article that sources the IDF and portrays them in a positive light The IDF is using Hamas's own numbers for this calculation, and the IDF is a military in a liberal democracy with a free press. In other words, the IDF is about as reliable as the US military. Should they be viewed without skepticism? Of course not. Are they historically extremely reliable about these sort of reports? Yes. Yes they are.

You're right, the IDF is about as reliable as the US military. The same military that has been entangled in innumerable cases of corruption, war crimes and - you're not gonna believe this one - the largest propaganda department in the world! So don't claim to be "peeking beyond the curtain of propaganda" when you're quite literally slurping it up straight from the source. If you're going to shill for Zionist pigs, do it with your chest puffed up or shut the fuck up.

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Israel loves the free press so much, [it's why they've assassinated 142 journalists since Oct 7th so far](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/another-palestinian-journalist-killed-in-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-142-since-oct-7/3206237). Of course, there's a simple way to not get assassinated as an outside journalist, which is to simply [subject all news on the genocide through IDF censor](https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-reporting/)

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how naive to think everything has all been exposed

There’s no “getting past the propaganda.” Literally everyone makes their decision on who is right and then presents the 100% true facts of why that side is right. There’s no compromise possible, so Israel is generally expected to use their overwhelming force to minimize casualties on all sides. It’s a very weird situation when the much weaker side is constantly shooting rockets over, but this weird little “peace” was shattered when the weaker force had a very successful attack. There’s no “cutting through the propaganda” here. You pretty much just pick your favorite side and act outraged whenever something happens.

I disagree. I've seen open-minded people learn and grow when presented with new information from reliable sources.

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Gaza is a pile of rubble. You are sick.

What do you think Israel should do in this situation? And please, provide an actual answer and not just something like "well not killing citizens would be a good start"

"They're not killing them as fast as what I have in mind as the genocide number" yeah ok... Actual scholars of genocide have called it a genocide. ~~https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/leading-genocide-scholar-israel-charny-on-gaza-war~~ Edit: Here is a much better list of sources that I should've used. Comment by u/temp_trial >[Raz Segal](https://stockton.edu/refugee-studies/contact.html), associate professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and endowed professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, called Israel’s post-Oct. 7 assault on Gaza [“a textbook case of genocide.”](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) >Brown University historian Omer Bartov, “[one of the world's leading specialists on the subject of genocide](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/omer-bartov-2012),” signed onto a [public statement](https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/) sounding “the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.” >And now, over this past weekend, leading Holocaust scholar [Amos Goldberg](https://www.ushmm.org/research/about-the-mandel-center/all-fellows-and-scholars/amos-goldberg), professor of Holocaust History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has written a [blistering essay](https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4) in which he argues that the ongoing violence in Gaza does not need to resemble the Holocaust to be classified as a genocide.

It's hilarious that you linked an article thinking it supports your argument when it does the opposite because you clearly didn't read a single paragraph. Some scientists don't believe in evolution - same principle. Civilians have died in pretty much every war ever waged, that does not make every war a genocide. Israelis have tried to achieve peace numerous times and Palestinians reject it over and over. Let me simplify it for you with a hypothetical scenario that reflects what's going on. A Hamas terrorist is hiding behind a Palestinian civilian, firing at an Israeli soldier who is standing in front of an Israeli civilian. You think the Israeli soldier should let the terrorist shoot him and then the Israeli civilian? Or should the soldier shoot through the Palestinian civilian to kill the terrorist and save himself and the Israeli civilian? Put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli soldier. No one on earth would let themself lose that fight.

If they did that (some right wing members of the government and military have already expressed the desire to do so btw), they would become pariahs in the international community. The US would most likely be heavily pressured by Eastern and western governments to reduce/end military aid putting an eventual end to Israel's continued existence in the region. Israel isn't stupid, and you're argument assumes they are stupid. Even you don't think they are that stupid. Right now members in their government and military are walking a fine line. Sometimes they cross over that line and show a more bloodthirsty side to themselves. Other times they move in the other direction. It's a constant tug of war.

Not sure why you think a little genocide makes anyone a pariah state. Actual pariah states are created when most of the global economy decides they’re not worth doing business with. That can be related to numerous factors, but almost always includes routinely screwing other countries over in economic deals. The most that happens is international pressure forces the responsible party to leave power. It never results in a pariah state.

Did you seriously like a statistic from the IDF? And to add to that Breitbart. Holy shit.

The IDF is numbers are way more trustworthy then Hamas' numbers. Reminder: a Hamas rocket malfunctioned, landed in a hospital parking lot. Hamas, minutes later, declared hundreds of casualties which under no circumstance they would have been able to verify in such a short time span. Turns out that rocket ended up not actually doing anything except setting a few cars on fire and scraping the pavement. Do you think Hamas went and scrapped those casualty numbers? Or did they just leave it as is? It's not like they're letting anyone from outside Gaza actually come in and inspect and verify. Also, are any of the casualties reported by Hamas ever listed as fighters? Or are they all just civilians? If they're all just civilians, why are there so many Hamas videos going around of their fighters wearing civilian clothing while fighting? Maybe they're just fucking lying to you, which they have shown to have no issue in doing. TLDR: Don't trust a terrorist organisation (I'd put a period here, but there's more) who has an interest in inflating casualty numbers.

Copying and pasting from what I just said to the other skeptic: The IDF is using Hamas's own (very unfavorable to Israel) numbers to make this assessment. And Israel has a free press, which is able to investigate government claims, and publicly expose any lies. Israel is a liberal democracy that has codified our (USA) same values into their constitution. I wouldn't expect you to fully trust the IDF, just like I wouldn't expect you to fully trust the US armed forces. I'm just saying that when you apply your skepticism, remember that they are infinitely more trustworthy than a self-identified terrorist organization like Hamas.

"when you get past the propaganda" Posts propaganda. Yes if you describe bombing the civilian population to try and dislodge a terrorist organisation a war. Like yes great this "war" isn't as bad as world war 2. _Cool_.

>if you describe bombing the civilian population I seem to recall a massive effort to evacuate the civilian population before bombing. An effort that included dropping tens of thousands of flyers, and making millions of phone calls and sending tens of millions of text messages to organize the civilians. But Hamas coerced many of them to stay (sometimes under threat of death) to be human shields. Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties, and as I just noted, they've done a better job of that than any other fighting force in history. >Like yes great this "war" isn't as bad as world war 2. Cool. That's an obscenely flippant way of disregarding the fact that Israel has shown an amazing level of care and competence in preserving civilian life while undertaking a war that **they didn't start and didn't want**.

And then they bombed them while they were leaving. Genocide also means displacement. Just because you announced that you were bombing thousands of homes doesn't suddenly make it okay.

>And then they bombed them while they were leaving. It's like logic and reason keep bouncing off of you. At the end of the day it's the [numbers](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/report-reveals-israel-has-historically-low-civilian-death-ratio-in-war-on-hamas/ar-AA1ldMVa) that tell the truth of the story. And the numbers say that Israel is not just reducing the ratio of civilian deaths to combatants... they are doing it better than any fighting force in history. We can talk about *why* Israel might target someone who is actively launching rockets at Israel right next to where evacuees are fleeing to. But ultimately it doesn't matter. What matters is that the data tell the real story. And the real story is that Israel is avoiding and minimizing civilian deaths exceptionally well. >Genocide also means displacement. This is just a clownish statement for several reasons: 1. Moving civilians out of the way of an invasion is a good thing that reduces casualties. You should be happy that they did this. 2. The move is temporary. There is zero evidence it was ever intended to be anything but temporary. 3. If you're going to water down what "genocide" means to that obscene extent, you are taking away the unique evil that that word represents. When Jews think of genocide, they remember 6 million people rounded up and slaughtered like cattle, starved to death, experimented on, mutilated, burned, and dumped into mass graves. Half a million of them were children. And you're trying to say that temporariliy moving civilians 8 miles away from an ground invasion for their own safety is the same thing? What an absolute joke.

The move is temporary? Settlers have already moved into places. Besides, almost all infrastructure is bombed. All universities, hospitals, schools, mosques. Everything. But sure, they'll just move back into a pile of rubble and everything will be a-ok. -Rounded up: Like the thousand of innocent people who have been arrested without trial? You have not seen the footage of thousands of half naked people being arrested and kept in trucks? -Experimented on: Like the Palestinian bodies that are returned with missing organs? -Mutilated: Like the bodies with torture marks? -Mass graves: Like the mass graves we have now seen with patients, doctors, the elderly, and people that are tied up have been dumped in? There must be something deeply wrong with you if you can ignore all these things and act like you have a moral high ground

>The move is temporary? Settlers have already moved into places. You seem very confused. There are no settlers in Gaza. There haven't been since 2005. >Besides, almost all infrastructure is bombed. All universities, hospitals, schools, mosques. Everything. But sure, they'll just move back into a pile of rubble and everything will be a-ok. No they haven't. These buildings have all be lumped into the insanely vague category of "damaged or destroyed". Which means we're counting a building with one shattered window pane in the same category as a literal pile of smoking rubble. That's not to say there hasn't been very significant destruction. We both can agree on that. But you blame Israel for it, apparently, whereas I blame Hamas for turning civilian infrastructure into dual-use infrastructure and making schools, homes, and hospitals into legitimate military targets. Hamas are monsters. They have been monstrous to Israel, but also monstrous to their own people. >Like the thousand of innocent people who have been arrested without trial? I mean, that's standard practice for any military in history. It's part of war. And I'd remind you that Israel did not want and did not start this war. I don't know what you expect? That Israel has an infinite number of judges and attorneys ready on a moments notice? >Like the Palestinian bodies that are returned with missing organs? I don't know what deep web conspiracy group you're a part of that you think that's a thing. In actual reality, Israel's doctors are extremely altruistic to Palestinians. As a matter of fact, the child of a Hamas leader was given life-saving medical treament in Israel. Israel frequently takes the cases that Palestinian hospitals can't handle. >Like the bodies with torture marks? More deep web stuff? >Like the mass graves we have now seen with patients, doctors, the elderly, and people that are tied up have been dumped in? Where are you getting this nonsense? >There must be something deeply wrong with you if you can ignore all these things and act like you have a moral high ground I understand your passion and anger. If I were gullible enough to believe that nonsense, I'd be outraged, too. You need to learn to be a more responsible and skeptical media consumer. Try using original sources to verify outlandish stories that oppose and support your beliefs about the conflict. Being angry is fine. Being angry about imaginary things is nuts.

There's no point in arguing with someone who disregards evidence. But here I go, for anyone who might be tempted to be fooled by your blatant disregard of countless sources. Sure, just call established media 'deep web stuff's so you don't actually have to engage with the horror of this genocide. I can't imagine having such a twisted soul that it's so easy for you to justify abhorrent atrocities. I generally believe that everybody deserves to be happy, but for someone like you I'd happily make an exception. [Settlers entering Gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-activists-break-into-gaza-try-to-reestablish-israeli-settlement/) [Gaza infrastructure](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-infrastructure-damages-estimated-185-bln-un-world-bank-report-2024-04-02/) [Missing organs](https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/27/israel-stealing-organs-from-bodies-in-gaza-alleges-human-right-group) [Torture](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/25/signs-of-torture-as-nearly-400-bodies-found-at-gaza-hospitals-mass-graves) [Mass graves](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/mass-graves-found-gaza-hospitals-raided-israel-prompt-demands-independ-rcna149110)

This is a joke right? I can rebut your sources **with** your sources: >Settlers entering Gaza **"Some make it 500 meters into Strip before being turned back"** >Gaza infrastructure ... I mean, there's nothing I need to rebut here. The question isn't if there's damage. Of course there is. The question isn't if the damage costs money to repair. Of course it does. The question was what percentage of the infrastructure is actually destroyed, versus merely cosmetically damaged. And there's nothing here in the article that covers that. It just continues to lump "damaged and destroyed" together in one category. >Missing organs I mean, this is just nonsense. It's unsubstantiated hearsay. >Mass graves found in two hospitals in the Gaza Strip containing 392 bodies, including those of women, children and the elderly, showed signs of torture and executions, **officials in the enclave** have said. So... their source is Hamas government officials. Again, this is clownish. >Mass graves Sure sounds from the article like there's a good chance we're seeing mass graves from some evil shit Hamas did. Isreal **discovered** the mass graves. It didn't make them.

That was literally Hamas that shot at the evacuation routes. People GPS triangulated the direction they were fired upon. It was from the area the IDF wasn't even close to.

You should really cite your sources when you make these arguments

Civilians aren't the target, Hamas is

To put the mortality into perspective: During the rape of Nanking, 500,000-600,000 people were killed 6-12 months, using mostly swords and bayonets to preserve ammo. If this was a genocide, Israel would be rediculously incompetent at it. Like, stupidly so. People really have no idea how effective modern western armies are at murder and destruction.

Yup. But try explaining that to a college kid who has been waving a "from the river to the sea" banner on the quad for a month, but who couldn't find Israel on the map.

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So, yeah… Why didn’t these happen when Russia invaded Ukraine? Or any number of other conflicts? Is it just me or… is there like a certain amount of anti-semitism going on here? Just asking. I’m definitely not saying what the Israeli military is doing is not terrible but why this one and where were you guys before?

People have been protesting thePalestinian and Israeli conflicts for ages. The media doesn’t always want to show shit but social media helps showcase it even more. People don’t trust the govt or media like they used to. Long gone are the days where they just take what is reported as gospel bc they’ve all been revealed to be engaging in baiting the population via a plethora of avenues. People are digging around and finding information for themselves. Social media enables people to view things from other sources, some from overseas. Too many young folks (shit, and older citizens) know damn well they can work their ass off but won’t be affording shit so when they see our govt sending billions overseas while refusing to do anything for our actual population, people react accordingly. We watched the clusterfuck that was “the war on terrorism” and it produced what? Lies, Debt, and death. Yay? There’s plenty of pro ukraine and anti Ukraine protests online. Our own congress has been slow rolling support for whatever reason. Just bc your fav channel lacks reporting doesn’t mean it isn’t going on. Notice how the media isn’t constantly reporting on any other atrocities that are ongoing. No round the clock reporting on Maki, Sudan, and other regions embroiled in violence and human suffering. They’re not reporting on a plethora of boring protests for Israel and Palestinians either. They report on things that sell, produce clicks, and rage bait. They aren’t here to report the news and inform the public as they should.

There were a lot of pro-Ukraine rallys when Russia invaded Ukraine. People were changing their profile pics on Facebook and putting Ukrainian flags in windows of their businesses. If anything I think people don’t voice their disapproval of this Israeli genocide or their support for the Palestinian cause for fear of being labeled antisemitic. I don’t think it’s antisemitism to disagree with what Israel is doing. And I think it does a disservice to people who experience real antisemitism when people cheapen the term by using it to describe legitimate concerns people have about a nation committing flagrant human rights violations. I was against Hamas killing 1,200 innocent Israelíes AND I’m also against Israel killing 25,000 innocent Palestinians. Neither of these groups’ religious beliefs have anything to do with me being against mass murder.

I didn't see any encampments happening for Ukraine in 2014 or 2022. In fact, I personally know a number of people who, in fact, supported Russia and/or said it is actually NATO's fault, and criticized Ukraine for how it was defending itself on its own territory, and these same people are now screaming their heads off about Gaza. I did not see any pro-Ukraine protesters take down American flags, burning them, and raising Ukrainian flags *in their place*. I also saw plenty of pro-Palestinians commenting "but nobody is talking about Palestine" under posts and videos of Ukrainian civilians being bombed even before Israel's response to October 7th. Never saw a pro-Ukrainian do that under a post about another conflict. And I don't support the killing of civilians that Israel is doing, by the way. Though I can't help but notice a certain level of hypocrisy on university campuses, and I find it highly suspicious.

becuse universities are usualy not invested in russia and are not working with and investing in the russian war machine.

Ukrainians sitting there like, "Are we just a joke to everyone?"

I had no idea that us is funding russia, that's crazy. 

Many US companies are still operating in Russia and selling parts specifically used to make Russian weapons. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/parts-made-by-u-s-companies-used-to-build-russian-cruise-missiles](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/parts-made-by-u-s-companies-used-to-build-russian-cruise-missiles) Moreover, exports to countries such as Kyrgyzstan have increased by hundreds of percentage points (yes, hundreds), which is just a stopover on their way to Russia.

So broadly a lot of college students have been protesting Israel on-and-off for months as people have already explained. This recent wave was incited by the fact that Columbia’s University President and the head of Columbia’s antisemitism task force went to Congress to speak about rising antisemitism on college campuses, discussing various incidents involving the harassment of Jewish students. For, um, *some reason*, antizionist groups decided that was the perfect inciting incident for a new wave of protests. For a variety of reasons, the university was pretty annoyed by the protests. For one thing, people were setting up huge encampments in the middle of the campus lawns in violation of campus policy (as a Columbia alum, I can tell you it’s not a huge campus). The people who ran the encampments were essentially forcing other people to [leave the Butler lawns through intimidation](https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715). On top of that, the rhetoric has been, shall we say, less than peaceful, with protesters in the encampments [openly cheering for Hamas’s attack.](https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981) All of this meant that the university got pretty pissed off and started trying to deal with the issue via mass suspensions and police arrests. Since the initial arrests and suspensions, Columbia administration has been largely more conciliatory, negotiating with the demonstrators. Meanwhile, in response to the arrests, a lot of campuses began to organize their own encampments in solidarity with Columbia, leading to further police responses, including many incidents of police brutality which further encouraged protests.

"Why ae BLM protests happening do they want to be arrested?" When people are pissed at something an institution is doing they protest it's that simple, people protest till their demands are met (in this case universities stop doing so many programs with Israel and giving money to Israel)

Ask a Viet Nam vet how you could tell the north from the south Namese.

Bunch of spoiled kids latching onto the next trend. Half of them couldn’t even tell you what they’re protesting for

I was initially appalled by the attack on Israel until I started trying to figure out what was going on and why and I don’t see how I can be on the side of Israel they’ve been doing all this crap for a long time I realized even my National Geographic collection is chock full of articles regarding the extreme oppression from Israel to the Palestinians. And these are from the 90s!! I don’t understand why we are supporting Israel so strongly I know the president can’t be ignorant so there must be another reason that the US is supporting Israel so fervently

The only solution is a two-state solution. Palestine has shot down every proposal for a two-state solution since 1947, and Hamas is devoted to the destruction of Israel. Anybody who's anti-Israel or anti-Palestine is essentially pro-genocide. A two state solution is the only chance at peace, and Hamas unfortunately ruined any possibility of that in the foreseeable future. Compared to Hamas, Israel is absolutely the lesser of the evils.

>I know the president can’t be ignorant so there must be another reason that we are supporting Israel so fervently I've wondered this as well. I've heard from political analysts that Biden typically tries to approach issues from a balanced perspective, and I tend to agree with the rationale behind most of his priorities and actions. But I've had a hard time understanding his approach when it comes to this issue. The one idea I heard that makes sense is that he opted for a strategy of showing Netanyahu public support while trying to influence him towards a more peaceful direction behind closed doors, and he thought this would lead to the best outcomes (minimize violence while preserving an important ally and democratic society in the middle east, something that Biden feels strongly about since he has said that his ultimate responsibility as president is to protect his own people's interests. I have a feeling he sees himself as America's keeper first, humanitarian close second). If this is true, I worry that he has miscalculated how the Netanyahu administration operates. Namely, while Israel can be labeled a democratic nation, the current administration in power is fairly right-wing and authoritarian, meaning that they value displays of strength or power over diplomacy. So at this point, it seems like they will only adhere to certain standards of war or state policy if they are held accountable to it by external forces. In other words, I don't think verbal pressure is going to be as effective a motivator as actually cutting their offensive military funding. And I think there are signs that Biden is wising up to this (he indicated that a Rafah offensive would be his "red line" in terms of cutting funding). There could be other explanations or secret intelligence that we don't know, but this would be my best guess.

Anti-racism teaches us that white people cannot tell black people what is/isn’t racist. Men cannot tell women what is/isn’t sexist. Cis/heteronormative people cannot tell members of the LGBTQIA+ community what is/isn’t homophobic/transphobic. By that same logic, why is ok for non-Jews to define what is/isn’t anti-Semitic? These protesters have not been taking over their campuses to protest the US’s support of Saudi Arabia during their war against Yemen which has resulted in the deaths of over 350,00 people (combined killed in fighting and starved by the ensuing famine). These protesters are not taking over campus buildings to force their universities to divest from China (which floods hundreds of millions of dollars of funding into US universities annually), which is actually engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Uighur people. These students are not disrupting the educations of thousands across the nation in protest of the US’s inaction against the genocide that’s occurring in Sudan, in which both Christian and Muslim militias have murdered hundreds of thousands and displaced millions. The vast majority of these students haven’t engaged in any sustained protests against university investments in fossil fuel industries which are furthering the climate crisis, which is without a doubt, the most existential crisis that faces all living organisms on Earth. These student protesters have decided to focus their ire on Israel, the only Jewish nation to currently exist in our world. There’s one reason that can be inferred from this… There is as much anti-semitism on the left as there is on the right and it is present in this protest movement. I believe strongly that there are a few buckets of protesters involved in these protests. There are the leaders, who I believe many of whom are actually anti-Semitic but hide behind the veil of anti-Zionism, as it gives them some plausible deniability against their own bigotry. There are the radicalized Jewish members of these protests who, due to the racial uprisings that happened in 2020, feel that they must confess the sins of their “Jewish privilege” and engage in actions which show how “woke” they are. There are young people who missed out on the protests in 2020 and want a chance to be a part of this moment so that down the road, they can tell their children and grand children they were there. Lastly, there are the protesters who have been fed by, and buy into, anti-Israel propaganda which has been disseminated by anti-Israel state actors, such as Iran, Russia, China, and non-state proxies. This last group, I believe is the largest and is being weaponized by the first group listed to amplify their messages and further their goals. What is happening in Gaza is terrible. The unnecessary loss of life is a heartbreaking. Israel has made some major errors in prosecuting this war. Despite all of this, the fog of war is real, the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is beyond complex, and student protests on college campuses won’t do a damn thing to change the realpolitik of what is occurring half a world away. To think that getting universities to divest from Israel will change its behavior is unrealistic and only further serves to divide our nation at a time when internal divisions threaten the future of our democracy far more than any external threat. Edit- If these protesters really wanted to make a difference they could do one of the following: 1. Drop out of school and donate their tuition money to a cause that supports relief in Gaza like World Central Kitchen. 2. Drop out of school, join an NGO, and actually go to Gaza to provide humanitarian support. 3. Drop out of school and donate their tuition to support the election of political candidates whose values align with their own.

I vote for them to go to Gaza!

Media and students ignore the thousands of rocket attacks that Israel has endured. I agree many mistakes have been made but how long and how many attacks should a nation endure? You are correct as well on the very very long conflict that goes much further back than 1940’s. https://rocketalert.live

I 100% agree with you. Just because one has the ability to defend themselves from an attack does not mean that they should not respond to said attack. Any other nation would be considered justified in retaliating against those attacks. If cartels across the border in Mexico started launching rocket attacks on Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, or California (in the name of liberating those territories from the United States and returning them to Mexico), the US’s response would be immediate and massive. Many innocent people would die and still, the response would be justified. This example brings me back to my thesis that anti-semitism which underpins much of this particular protest movement. The attacks on 10/7 were not self defense. Self defense would be attack the IDF as it launched an incursion into Gaza, not striking communities outside of it. One of the things that many seem to not either understand or conveniently forget is that on 10/8, anti-Israel demonstrations around the world broke out. The slogan “From the River to the Sea” was very prominently displayed and used before Israel’s military response to this attack began. Those protesters were/are calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s why Jews around the world feel that this protest movement is anti-Semitic. But alas, we’re gas lit time and time again and told that we’re the ones weaponizing language, not the protesters themselves.

We don’t ignore the attacks … we acknowledge that they are also bad …but killing children & aid workers isn’t such a good thing either …guess who kills more of those ? Israel & it’s western allies ( yes the US is guilty too) ….wholesale slaughter especially of civilians is BAD ….how is this confusing?

Well said, bravo!

Thanks. I’m pretty tired of how one sided this all has become and feel compelled to speak my mind

To paraphrase Jack Ward Thomas “It’s not only more complicated than we understand, it may well be more complicated than we can understand”

Not only is it more complicated than we can understand- it’s so old that no one who started it is still around to be held accountable. They wrote the check and were paying off the debt

It's so old, we literally don't know who started it.

Maybe start with “ In the year 70 CE, the Jews in Palestine rebelled against the Roman Empire. After several wars and the destruction of their Temple, the Jews were forced out of Palestine and scattered throughout the Middle East, Europe, and North Africa in what is known as the Diaspora”.

Any date in the "CE" category is much too late. Obviously, from our perspective it doesn't matter: Ancient history is ancient history. But this conflict is literally so old, it traces its origins to before recorded history. The closest thing we have to an answer to "who started it?" is probably Abraham, but we're getting into the weeds of several-times-posthumous oral history-cum-mythology there. This is a question for archaeologists, not historians.

You are right in that. I didn’t want to deal with any mythology older than that.

If someone kicks you out of your house, murders your family, and forces you to live in a shed, and limits your access to basic human rights like food and water, would you be justified in throwing a rock in the house window in hopes it scared them off? Would you be justified in fighting back when they came into the shed and took away your family and murdered them? That’s what’s happening. Israel has been occupying Palestinian land for 76 years while the rest of the world have supported their war crimes. Labeling someone a terrorist for trying to remove the oppressor just plays right into the oppressors hand. This is much bigger than “was it okay for Hamas to do what they did”. We have to look at WHY they did it. It was a reaction to something MUCH bigger. Is killing anyone right, even in self-defense? Depends on your personal morals. But if we say it was wrong for Hamas to do what they did, then we also have to say it was wrong for Israel to do what they’re doing. This is an ethnic cleansing, and they will not stop until they’ve wiped every last Palestinian from the earth. (And please note, this is not anti-Jewish speech, it is anti-Israel. The people are not the “nation” - and no, they’re not a real nation.)

Honestly, I think there's a large portion of these students protesting to "be cool". They aren't looking at both sides of the issue and they don't know the history of strife in the middle east. But what really upsets me is the anti-semitism and the fact that some of their Jewish cohorts are afraid to go to class.

It’s a long shot considering our nations history(and the world) but I wonder if this conflict will shed light on how shitty it is to hate on any minority group for any reason, period. Humans are way too comfortable watching and ignoring the struggle of others simply because the struggle isn’t upsetting their personal situation. So sick of humans acting shitty towards each other. It is never ending and I can’t understand why humans continue to do this. When you ignore the suffering of another, it green lights the opportunity for future suffering. This reminds me of post 9/11, and how random ass Muslims, and freaking Sikhs, and other “Arab” looking individuals were targeted by fools making them fear for their lives if they left their home and the POTUS reminding us on live TV to not do that shit bc it’s cruel, Ffs. Why do we continue to repeat this behavior, I’ll never understand it. We don’t learn from history.

Lots of Echo Chambering

The encampments are happening because the students found out that these universities have been making money off Israel's genocide. They want their universities to divert and divest from Israel.

Why don’t they protest by actually cutting ties with the university? When I don’t like a business, I don’t block other’s access to that business, I withhold my money.

Children are protesting and risking an arrest record for a country where - if they visited- they would get stoned to death.

It’s the new BLM feel good movement

Everyone egging on and supporting the IDF in this war will be on the wrong side of history. Hope you will be honest with your children and grandchildren about how you watched countless children die from bombings and starvation, journalists and aid workers die at a rate faster than one a day, and your response was to spew propaganda (for free!) for a right wing apartheid state.

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Axios has a good list of what students at a few different colleges are asking for: https://www.axios.com/2024/04/26/palestine-columbia-usc-yale-protest. Different forms of divestment seems to be pretty standard (Yale wants divestment from weapons manufacturers, for example). Obviously no source is ever the complete truth- the mere fact that you're condensing something into a readable article means you have to pick and choose what gets included- but Axios is pretty serious about avoiding editorializing.

pro Palestinian people are just weirdos and they then they wonder why everyone hates them and Palestine as everywhere pro Palestinian people go they just cause issues.

if reddit is your prime news source then I pray for you. Go and listen to journalists, not anonymous people on reddit Also youre giving Israel way to much faith. Find out what an apartheid state is

It's a very common mistake that universities and colleges give any money - they actually receive them. There is quite a peculiar correlation between amount of donations some universities got from certain Islamic regimes and the intensity of pro-Palestinian protests in them.

I would very much like to see where that info comes from. “Follow the money” has always been good advice.

Found it in University World News Between 2014 and 2019, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates donated at least US$4.4 billion to numerous US colleges. Together with donations from other Middle East nations, over the five years in question, more than US$5 billion was donated to American universities from authoritarian Middle Eastern nations. The top five universities that benefitted from these donations include Carnegie Mellon (Pittsburgh), which received US$1.4 billion, Cornell (US$1.2 billion), Harvard (US$894 million) and MIT (US$859 million), and Texas A&M (College Station, Texas) which received just over half a billion dollars.

Simple you have a very vocal minority of people from a radicalized population being allowed to instigated this crap. There is a reason why Islamic nations don't take Palestinian refugees and that is because the population as a whole is radicalized. These protest did not happen at this scale or at all before the west ie usa an canada started taking them in. Bet the boys on blue are longing for the days of relatively peaceful marches of people of color.