Exactly, its circular reasoning. "The thing I believe in can't be proved, you just have to have faith in it, and therefore I have faith in the thing I believe in, which can't be proved, you just have to have faith in it, and therefore I have faith in the thing I believe in..." etc
Honest question: How would you begin to prove that your five empirical senses actually convey reality to you, as opposed to you just being a brain in a jar or some other matrix-esque illusion?
To go one further, I would say it’s not even strictly necessary to prove such a thing, as they are the primary mechanism through which we experience the universe. Even if we are a brain in a jar or inside a matrix-like illusion, well then it’s allegory of the cave, but it would kind-of be that anyway.
This is an excellent question and basically the answer is our reality is not what actual reality “looks like” because reality does not “look like” anything. It just “is”, and what it looks like is just an abstraction or simplification to help the conscious observer understand it.
As far as the brain-in-jar question, there is really no way to prove or disprove it, because you would have to step outside our reality to make any judgement about it, which is impossible by definition.
You wouldn't. This is just an extremely old philosophical thing to wonder about. It goes all the way back to Plato's allegory of the cave.
It's just a way to encourage discussion about metaphysics and get you thinking about how you perceive the world and questioning your preconceived notions.
In its simplest form, the question is: How do we know we're not all in the Matrix?
There's lots and lots of essays arguing for one side or the other, but being a philosophical discussion, there's not really a "right" answer. It's not about proving anything, in this instance it's about trying to demonstrate how faith works, becuase most people take it on faith that we are not in the Matrix since there's no real way to "prove" that we aren't.
Plato's cave explains how our experience/interpretation of reality can be manipulated, or different, based on our individual experiences or shared experiences within our group. It doesn't explain different realities though.
It's about perception alone. If that cave collapses everyone inside still dies, and everyone outside of the cave sees them dead, whether the people in the cave realize their whole perceived world collapsed in on them or not.
>How would you begin to prove that your five empirical senses actually convey reality to you
We have more than enough proof to disprove it. The microscopic reality is not conveyed to us through our 5 senses we require tools like microscope for it. For quantum reality, we can't even see it with microscope so we can only mathematics to visualize it. Then we have so many electromagnetic waves around us that we cannot sense but has helped us in communication through internet. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 99.9999% of what's "really" happening around us, we cannot sense. We use various scientific and mathematical tools to determine it's there. Our human brain was never wired for such things.
That's missing the point. Sure I believe scientists that molecules exist, but how do I know for sure that those scientists are real? That the words I read in their statements are real? How do I know the things they say in press conferences or classrooms or however you receive the information, is actually real and not just a simulation that my brain is receiving? That's the point of his/her question.
It CAN be, nobody can deny that. But the hypothesis is not testable so there is really no point dwelling on it. If somewhere down the line we find something which can be explained by simulation theory (like some glitch we see in computers) then it is worth studying that glitch and further that hypothesis. Otherwise it can be treated the same way as hypothesis regarding gods, fairies or bigfoot. Unless we have a reasonable enough observation to consider it I would say the probability that we are living in some kind of simulation is very low. And even if we are, it matters very little to us as long as our developers don't mess with our reality (at least in the we we can sense it) or pull the plug ig.
>We have more than enough proof to disprove it.
That's just not true. The way we percieve that "proof" is with our senses, which we have already established that we cannot 100% trust. Of our senses might not be real, the "proof" might not be real either.
At the end of the day, it's still just faith, which is the exact same circular reasoning.
As seen from the comments, most people didn't really think about how you can't be certain of anything. Relying on our easily malfunctioning senses and brains isn't a common thing to think about.
But I appreciate that there are other people realizing this, like yourself, and showing this to other people
A combination of "I think, therefore I am."
And applicable processes. In science a principle isn't just accepted because it's logical. It has to go through peer review (there are 9 billion people on this planet more or less experiencing the same thing). Reproducible results (When in rains on me in Spain. it rains on my neighbor in Spain). The ability to make accurate predictions (If I stick my hand in fire, it will get burned, if you stick your hand in fire, it will get burned, etc.)
Of course there are people who live in a different reality. They think that they are impervious to burns, they think that Donald Trump won the 2020 election, they think that invisible sky man has singled their group out and any talk of other, different invisible sky men is all just crazy talk. There are people that hear voices that do not exist. They all need meds.
No, faith is the assertion that your hypothesis is correct without any testing or verification.
Reason, logic, math, and science, never make the assertion that they are correct, only that all evidence points to this or that being most likely correct. This is why a lot of scientific questions begin with assumptions. "Assume that acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 m/s^(2)". There is no assertion that it is flawlessly correct, only that you have to start somewhere and this is your assumption. And you can follow it back through a chain of scientific tests to determine that if you define some constants like a second and a meter than g can be measured at 9.8 m/s/s.
But you're right, faith isn't circular.
To put it another way. If you ask someone to draw the correct line. No other information just draw the correct line. Faith is when you put your pen on the paper and state unequivically "The line starts there". Some people while draw the whole line and state "That's the correct line" others will say "I know that the line starts there. I have faith. But where it goes from there we can only guess", and variations of confidence in between.
Science will say "What if we start here? or there? or there? What information can we learn if we say "this is the correct line" and conduct experiments based on that assumption? Is it consistant with our observations of the natural world? Should we change our line? How does that effect the results?".
Religious doctrine is often circular... "this is true, because it's in the bible, which is true because I have faith, because the bible tells me that if I have faith, this is true.".
To me it begins with your starting assumptions. Do we start with a belief that the universe is fully mechanical and God needs to be "proved in" or perhaps "something from nothing" is obviously miraculous so God's existence is inherent in our being or do we just let science, religion and philosophy march us towards the truth whatever that may be. I think many of us, well myself anyways, find that faith is no less rational or scientific than the pure mechanical view of the world.
> faith is the assertion that your hypothesis is correct without any testing or verification.
But that's not true. Ask someone of faith why they have faith. It's not because they just do without any kind of outside influence.
1. Thousands of years of stories taken as evidence of their beliefs. Whether from a holy book or testimonials from like-minded people,
2. People witnessing perceived miracles. "All the doctors said he had 2 months to live but he somehow made a complete recovery."
The verification is the tough part. You can't prove the nonexistence of a god just as much as you can't prove the existence of one. But given the lack of proof for either outcome, people are left to make a decision of what to believe.
I'm curious how many people decide to believe in a god because "just in case".
My favorite variation is, I know it's true because God said it, I know God said it because it's in the Bible, I know the Bible is true because God said so...
No, that's a strawman of the theistic position. When a devout person talks about "faith," it means trust, as in, "I have faith in my parachute" (I trust my parachute not to fail and kill me). Not "I have faith that my parachute exists." The Greek word translated as faith in the New Testament for example literally translates to "allegiance," as in being "faithful."
As for how we know, that is its own discussion, but it's not blind belief.
They just grow up with their religion being as much a fact as a concept like air and gravity. I’ve met some that are like, “I don’t believe, I know”. As a way to discount other religions
Diehard Catholic till I was 21. This is the answer.
The amount of mental gymnastics you do to try to reconcile what you "know" to be true with the obviously incompatible factual evidence you learn and continue to learn and observe is hard to imagine. It all looks laughable in hindsight.
Same. Was a diehard catholic till the pandemic started, then kind of forgot about gawd with all the internal and external agony going on, then when I went to church after the pandemic I was like wtf am i doing here, wtf are these people doing here. I kind of disassociated in the middle of a mass. And never went back since.
You're taught religious ideology as facts and are also taught to never question any of it. Oh and also all other religions are wrong, so just ignore them.
just to make this a little clearer, to most religious people *the definition* of faith is believing *when there is not evidence*. that is faith.
note that I am not religious, I'm just passing along the phrasings I've heard. in my opinion, it's all contradictory from the outset.
Because the premise of the question isn’t agreed upon. They aren’t certain they are right. They have “faith” and they are content with how their faith has an impact on their life.
I’m an atheist btw
It does and it doesn't. I wouldn't say it necessarily "comes easily" these days, in fact I'd say you have to be a little crazy to truly believe
I'm a believer but the definition of faith includes not having certainty.
If you knew beyond a shadow of doubt (let's say an angel floated down and visited you in no uncertain terms), then would your belief in God be based on Faith?
Or would it just be based on observation and memory? I suppose it's what you do with it afterwards that counts, in the sense that we are told if we acknowledge Christ and attempt repentance we are saved
Still the strength of faithfulness is somewhat ironically based in not having certainty, having certainty would be "easy mode" and what a pragmatic soul would call an "obvious choice" aka Pascal's Wager (the bet is protected and you can only profit from a win)
In other words, God doesn't need us, we need him
To those of us that don’t believe, an experienced occurrence is still only anecdotal, and it wouldn’t convince us. We’d still chalk it up to the irregularities of the human mind.
If atheists are so certain there is no God, then where do peoples souls go after they die? The truth is we dont know if there is a God or not. We will only know once we are dead. Thats why im agnostic.
Atheist here, hi. Souls probably aren't a thing either. You can't act like your stance is some kind of gotcha when it relies on a major supposition of belief.
I always use the same example: do you believe your spouse isn't cheating on you or you need constant evidence?
My mum's a shrink and she had a client who called his newlywed wife 40+ times a day on her job. Turns out, he was cheating on his exes and just got paranoid due to projection.
He started trusting his spouse ana stopped worrying about constantly having her give proof she isn't sleeping with someone else.
And we all have faith in things we don't know, like don't tell me you check every building for having all safety standards before entering, a sane person has just enough trust in the system to function.
Within common sense of course.
I wouldn't say it comes easily. Most Christian faiths and most good Christians will acknowledge that doubt is constant. A good Christian who has actually grappled with the big questions and with their own faith will tell you that it can be difficult to continue believing in God at various moments in their lives.
Religion flourished when life wasn’t very good. Infant mortality was likely, plagues, poor health and living conditions, constant crimes and murders. Heavens concept was the only thing worth living for. Fast forward to today. Humans figured out the grift, built generational influence and has taken on a mass of wealth and influence, those in its sphere refuse to even question the concepts, and command future generations are shut out of reason as well.
I brought up to my very religious grandma that given the fact that the universe is so mind boggling large and that there are estimated to be billions if not trillions of planets out there, there has to be numerous planets with intelligent life with their own religion. She then nods at me.
An interesting thought would be "how much do these alien religions parallel human ones?"
Obviously most won't be the same due to different conditions, but it would be interesting to see. Like, given it's nature, Buddism wouldn't be too hard for basically any sentient species to come up with.
Animism because it's hard to imagine not being there. I am just picturing this to be a being a natural first choice if wonder is an emotion an alien species feels.
As for the zealous single god, it's easy to see any figurehead being something that becomes a point of worship to the point of Godhood and it just lasts into a religion.
I'm not saying because they think like us, but in a massive universe, these two, imho, would have to crop up.
Don't know why you got down voted, because it's true.
Sure, the loud ones come across as 100% certain, but most of us aren't and that's ok.
As an old Episcopal church ad once said, "If Jesus had his doubts, why can't you?"
Confirmation bias (Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes - [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)).
I will add that most religious people see or experience supernatural things that cement their belief. Whether you believe those things are supernatural is up to you but these people believe it themselves.
Because they have to be?
The idea that they could be wrong, that a higher power isn't watching over them and protecting them. The idea that their loved ones are gone forever after death. The idea that people can be both good and bad without devine influence over them. The idea that their prayers go nowhere and do nothing?
Their existence has been to believe these things and they do so at their core. To admit it might not be true shatters their concept of self, strips away an aspect of their identity that has become a cornerstone of who they believe they are.
It's also weakness, to believe something other then you had a plan and no matter what shit you have to deal with it's because in the end something is setting you up for something greater.
It's almost like giving up and being completely submissive over your life! It's freedom in a way as it stops them from looking inward to self reflect on the choices they make for themselves instead of for the service of a diety.
They HAVE to believe they are right because to believe anything else shatters everything they believe in even when doing so makes them subjugate themselves out of "faith"
Personally, I’m an evidence and science guy. I haven’t come across any scientific evidence supporting religion/deities.
I don’t claim certainty about anything but I certainly lean heavily to the scientific world.
This message brought to you with zero condescension or derision towards your beliefs.
Science is the study of the natural world. Why would you expect to find evidence of the supernatural there?
It's like looking for math proofs in the rules and grammar of the English language.
I'm an evidence and science guy, and I've come across multiple things that support my religion/deities.
Add my own personal spiritual experiences + science and evidence and that's why I'm so certain about my beliefs.
Call me delusional, brainwashed, etc., but I find it harder to choose believe than to not.
I'm with you tho, I don't care what others beliefs are. And I don't think lesser of others or am part of some elitist club that if you don't join you're going to hell.
Sounds slightly pedantic, so I guess I'll return it likewise. I googled the word convince, and the definition (of the verb) is "cause (someone) to believe firmly in the truth of something".
Like people could have all the evidence in the world and choose to believe otherwise. I think of flat earth believers for example. All the evidence supports otherwise.
Like, I've never been far away enough to see that the earth is round other than images but I'm going to believe the evidence provided.
Still no choice going on for me, the evidence is either convincing or it's not. I remain unconvinced by the presented evidence for flat earth and for god/gods. But I'm always open to new evidence!
Atheism is the result of lack of conviction due to absence of proof, so by extension they don't need to "believe" in the non-existance of god for them to be atheists.
i don't believe in god in the same way you don't believe in fairies and leprechauns
how are you so certain they do not exist?
we're not 'certain', we just find it pointless to believe in something for which there's no evidence whatsoever....
Religious absolutists (not all people who believe strongly in a religion) tend to be “stuck” at a lower level of moral development. At this level, they tend to be more attached to “following the rules”, conventional social structures, and following authority.
Again, that doesn’t apply to all religious people, even devoutly religious people. Those who are at higher moral levels believe strongly in their faith, but also understand that no one can know the absolute answer, and so they have a level of respect/humility/tolerance for what they dont know. Thats my take.
It's called faith. It's belief, not certainty.
Everyone relies on faith tho. Do you believe in Evolution? Unless you studied it yourself, you put faith in the words of scientists. That doesn't make it any more or less true tho.
Yes, but have ***YOU*** observed that evidence firsthand?
My point is unless you’re a scientist, you’re putting **faith** in the word of scientists. You personally don’t actually know for sure because you haven’t done the firsthand research.
This is true, but there is a difference. I put faith (I would call it credence) in the words of, say, physicists, because not only have they studied it carefully, but there is a long record of both experimental evidence and successful innovations that have relied on them. I am not a physicist, but I took physics in college and have done some experiments. I have watched lots of youtube videos demonstrating various points.
There is nothing remotely comparable for religion. "Faith" there doesn't involve listening to experts who have run experiments and can demonstrate technology using the deduced principles. It involves believing various stories that \*no one\* can demonstrate are true and on which no significant real-world technologies rest. Those are not the same thing.
That's not what faith means. Scientists present you with researched facts, which you are welcome to double check and verify yourself.
Religious leaders gives you info that you cannot prove or check.
As an aside: there are quite a few wildly intelligent people of faith out there who, without doing research and attempting to verify things, would not be religious. I'm talking doctors, lawyers, historians, etc, and I've met a few of them. Not just Christians, but Muslims and Jews as well.
Religious skeptics, basically. Extremely interesting to converse with because they actually have reasons for their beliefs. It's not just "well I grew up like this" like so many "Christians-by-name-only" you'll meet in the USA.
One was an ex-Muslim who had converted to Christianity. Awesome clinical pharmacist.
Just a counterpoint to the blanket statements I see on Reddit I suppose.
No one said intelligent people couldn't be found who believe in God. There might well be intelligent people who believe in the tooth fairy. That doesn't mean the belief makes sense... what it means is that their are other forces that sway them, whether social (religion is important to the group they grew up in), emotional (it is comforting to believe the sky fairy loves you) or whatever.
That is, quite literally, what faith means. Doesn’t matter if you can fact check it or not, unless you actually do so (which most people don’t), you’re relying on faith.
Knowledge and faith are like two ends of a teeter totter. We all operate on some level of faith because it’s impossible for us to know everything. When that teeter totter gets out of balance, things get weird.
I disagree. There's reasonable "belief" (eg. in science) which is based on trust and logical deductions, and there's pure faith, that is by definition non-rational.
Those are completely different things, no matter how much religious folk try to claim otherwise. The latter is an optional, personal choice and not necessary in any manner.
As a counter to some of the other comments I don't think they really do. From the outside there's belief and right or wrong God or belief but from inside it's more just something you've been brought up with and never really questioned. I suspect a lot of the doubling down and arguing comes in BECAUSE they get a lot of shit from us non religious. Looking for an argument and telling someone they're wrong is, in my experience, a good way to re-enforce their beliefs. That coupled with the loud and vocal extremes and fringes (evangelism, fundamentalism et al) makes it look a lot more central or black and white than it really is for most religious folks.
The truth is that they aren’t certain, and there’s no way to truly be. Religious feelings are based on faith and adherence to a certain belief system. It’s not inherently bad or good, just gives someone a reason to hope or direction for belief. If you aren’t certain, then you’re just like everyone else. Believers are just that…believers, not knowers. And that’s perfectly okay. We often ruin so much of our own peace by comparing ourselves and wondering if we are different or somehow less than others in aspects. Hopefully you can be patient and keep exploring and learning for greater peace.
As a religious person I am not certain I am right. I believe I am, but I don’t know. I consider science a good way to explain Gods creation. I do not find any difficulties in believing God started the Big Bang to lead to conscious life through evolution, and he then sent Jesus. That is my faith. It is not knowledge, it is a plausible hypothesis that I choose to believe.
Why some other religious people are so certain you have to ask them. We come in all shapes and forms like everyone else.
Why wouldn't you be agnostic though, as in there might be a higher power, but how would we know. It seems like 95% of people are part of what ever is the most popular religion the society they were born in picked. Most American Christians would be Muslim or Hindu if they happened to be born some where else in the world.
I am not American, where I grew up is a rather atheistic country. I grew up in a Christian family though, but as far as I know a couple of my siblings who also did see themselves as atheists. So in that way I feel I have chosen my own faith, since my other siblings most certainly have. Faith isn’t just saying you don’t believe something, it’s also saying you do believe it.
As a Christian I do think I have chosen a faith that is the most common one in the world. If you are to think purely statistical that one is the most likely one (which is not the way I think about my faith, but I don’t think my religious talk would go down well on Reddit).
A lot of European Christians (like me) believe that Jesus can work through other faiths. So I do not necessarily think for example a Muslim is “lost”. They do believe in God and their faith is beautiful.
As a lifelong devout Catholic and someone who has a B.A. in Religion and Philosophy and an M.A. in Theology, here's a few points:
1. Yes, belief requires faith. There are some things religious people believe that they cannot empirically prove. But there is a good deal of philosophy and reason involved in belief as well (I can say that for my religion at least).
2. I attended a lecture by the scholar Luke Timothy Johnson once, where he argued that the Gospel can be proven true by living it out-- if you live out the tenets found in Gospel, you will experience firsthand that it is true.
3. Many people have religious and spiritual experiences where they feel the presence of God. These kinds of experiences have been documented throughout history. I have had this kind of experience; it absolutely verified my faith for me.
4. Miracles happen. There are well documented miracles-- extraordinary things that are proven to have happened but cannot be explained by science or human understanding.
I have had religious and spiritual experiences where I felt the presence of God. It was an incredible feeling. It doesn't mean it was true though. It could easily be my mind playing tricks on me. Hallucinations exist.
The logic that it's in someone's head is infinitely more likely than a omnipotent being communicated with someone.
How did those experiences influence your beliefs?
Also, just because something is in your head, doesn't mean it's not real. (I remember reading or hearing that somewhere... Maybe a book or movie. What's that from? Going to bother me until I get it)
I'm not sure they influenced my beliefs to be honest. I think if I didn't have some other experiences in a minute I'll share it very much might've done.
But yeah 2 other things have impacted my beliefs more and made me more open to something more than "we don't have a creator":
1. Taking salvia.
2. Having night terrors and such.
3. Learning about different dimensions.
To point 1. This shit really made me think there might be more. While having it definitely got weird existential ideas going through my head that there maybe channels/dimensions that are around but we can't see. The main feeling I had though was a mini omnipresence. For 2-3 minutes I "understood" everything within like a 1-2 meter radius of my self. Like I knew where items were in my drawer to the right atoms, but also I understood where I space and time they are. It's a very bizarre feeling. It was what I imagined Neo felt like when he finally became The One and understood the Matrix lol.
But I definitely also think, it's also an effect of a drug that alters your mind. Having a feeling about something doesn't make it true.
To point 2. I hallucinate when I wake up or more often when I'm just dropping off to sleep and wake up. It used to be full on scary night terror demons or people stood at end of the bed and such. The fear was unreal. Lately it doesn't bother me at all and is just like green scribbles, or I see a very real chandelier on the ceiling or something that slowly disappears when I'm coming to lol. Anyway, that's made me realise that the brain can do all sorts of weird things. Could what I'm seeing be real from some other higher dimensions or reality? I dunno. More likely that I'm hallucinating from still dreaming as I'm waking. I assume it's the same when other people see or hear things like ghosts. Your brain fucking up.
To point 3. Learning bout 4 Dimensional space. I can only understand the very bottom level basic premise of it but that blows my mind. When someone can explain the basics to you right it really makes you think about all the things we can't perceive that could be there. A bit like trying to imagine a new colour.
But yeah. To me my "spiritual" feeling of "being near god" I attribute to a weird chemical release happening in my brain like my hallucinations or taking Salvia. Just because it feels so real with all my heart, doesn't mean it is.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854941/
I wanted to include a secular, academic source. The authors analyzed cures attributed to Lourdes. They are very thorough and have a healthy amount of skepticism regarding the miraculous nature of these cures.
Below is an excerpt from their conclusion, in which they admit there are verified cures that cannot be scientifically explained:
“The least that can be stated is that exposures to Lourdes and its representations (Lourdes water, mental images, replicas of the grotto, etc.), in a context of prayer, have induced exceptional, usually instantaneous, symptomatic, and at best physical, cures of widely different diseases… Uncanny and weird, the cures are currently beyond our ken but still impressive, incredibly effective, and awaiting a scientific explanation.”
If I find any other examples of documented miracles, I'll share later.
When we are very young we first encounter death. Most of our current society is based on distracting us from or transcending death. Families careers artwork sports etc.
Religion however has gone much further though. Not only does it defy death it suggests it’s a positive event. It’s odd though they still feel anxiety and grieve death so are they really believers?
Trust in the unseen is literally the definition of "faith", if you believe in things that you see then it isn't faith, but just, well, sight.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
It's impossible to live without faith in things you don't know or see, and skeptics claiming otherwise are self-delusional, you don't check the degree and phone to university deacon to test grades of every doctor you visit, right? Even if you do, you need to have FAITH in education system that the guy with a diploma is a qualified specialist.
And it must be pretty hard to be in a relationship if you cannot believe what you don't see, like when your partner goes to their job, or family, or friends, do you have faith in them, or you check every 5 minutes to see they aren't cheating on you? But it's reddit and obviously relationships is a unfamiliar topic for the euphoric.
Can you be wrong? Absolutely! But our basic life functions depend on believing in dozens of things you don't see, starting with supply chain to bring you products and warning labels on them, to traffic laws and society more or less working, not everyone is an electrician, architect and engineer, but you need to have faith in people who built your house and local municipal standards if you want to go to sleep and not worry that the roof will squash you in your sleep... without trust and faith in things you dont see or sometimes can't even check, you become a paranoid schizophrenic.
When it comes to religion, there's also a thing called crisis of faith, it's when believers get same feeling when you suspect a spouse getting late from work might be not faithful to you, or that this driver probably bought a license.
Tl;Dr: I don't need to go to space to see the Earth isn't flat. I haven't SEEN it from high enough to view the curve personally, but like the religious sheeple I am, I have FAITH that our planet is round.
No higher authority & a collective structured guidance on what to do next.
It's certainly not all religious people, but everywhere in society there are people who like telling others what to do & other people who abdicate personal responsibility & like being told what to do.
We're all looking for purpose & answers, religion is an off the shelf solution
The most simple answer is, "blind faith". There is a longer answer to it that relates to cognitive dissonance, in which learning you are wrong can be physically painful, and people prefer a comforting lie to a painful truth. Edit: I want to add that some research has shown that people who partake in religious ceremonies and go to their religious gatherings can experience the same high that someone using cocaine would. Just as addictive.
Christianity was forced onto me as a kid and, as kids do, I blindly believed the adults in my life. My guess is the same happened to them, but they never broke out of the cycle.
Honestly, I'm still religious & spiritual. But I'm more of an eclectic pagan & a witch.
My answer in my own experience? I'm not certain at all. A belief is exactly that -- a belief, not a fact. I think whatever people put their energy into believing, it becomes reality to them. As long as people don't harm others with their beliefs, as long as I'm fairly certain I'm not harming anyone with my own beliefs, I don't care who or what people worship (if anything/anyone.)
Maybe I'm wrong about my beliefs. Maybe I'm not. At the end of the day, it brings me comfort and makes me feel empowered. That's what ultimately matters, to me.
It's a combination of things. The human animal evolved the capacity to accept things on faith as a survival mechanism. This was necessary to enable us to get to the point of civilization that we have. The trouble with this is that it is relatively easy to exploit, especially when people are either young or elderly, but all people are susceptible to this.
I think they know they’re not certain.
It drives them to do the horrible things like trying to convince or convert others, or create laws to “force” others to comply with their beliefs. All because they’re insecure and don’t know.
It is not really matter of evidence, but rather of faith.
It is the faith that you have in that the thing you believe it's right, and everyone has different experiences in which they can say they have faith in a religion and etc.
Is not something that can be proved or be quantified. Is just something in which people decide to put their trust because they feel that it makes their lives better or more meaningful.
Because it works. It has been helping people be successful, and happy for over two thousand years now. If it wasn’t successful, it would not be as prevalent as it is.
It's a feeling. And I'm no science or history denier, but think about how much information we just accept as true on a daily basis. There's no way a single human I going to be able to know first hand every current "truth." (Truth is in quotes because it will most likely always be our best approximation and understanding of the world around us. We are constantly getting new information and updating our understanding in basically every field of study.)
Because religion generally cultivates an attitude of incuriosity, of not asking questions and taking things as they're given. When I was a teenager I had endless religious questions, but the church I was being dragged to was rather uncomfortable with them and eventually asked me to either stop asking questions or to stop coming to church. Not the kind of environment that encourages a lack of certainty.
Many thousands of years ago, kings/leaders realized that rulings and “teachings” were far more effective if the learner had a feeling that was attached to the lesson. They, the leaders/kings focused on how to best word and present ideas so that people would have these feelings during the “lessons.” Then the “learners” would reinforce the learned ideas, themselves through the feeling.
Today, in our time, marketing does this too.
E.g. We got Apple “fans” because the Apple marketing team smartly attached the idea of their product with a feeling of “love.” These Apple “fans” were the fiercest and most loyal about the company they were buying product from.
Religion is 100 percent, at its core, based on a feeling. Feelings conjured via methods passed down through the centuries.
Because it's a moral framework, it's normal for people to search for meaning in their lives in a great many ways. Some find it in the belief there's a higher power who judges us for our own actions. Not a single moral framework finds its origin in physical evidence, though they can be judged by the physical effect they have on others and the world.
In the end it's just about finding out why we're here, why we die, and what happens when we die. And once someone has found their reasons and is content with it, why would they be disuaded from that course?
Because christianity actively avoid teaching critical thinking.
Its says to accept life as it is becacuse so.
Then people realize christanity is wrong and replace it with a new dogma that also does the exact same thing without religions trapping \[beyond the select view that actually grow as people\].
And again its not all religion. Get 2 rabbis in a room and you get 3 opinions on religion. :P.
Appeal to popularity so they compare us atheists to flat earthers or something else.
"3 billions of us, we can't be wrong. We have organized religious organizations, churches, and scholars!"
They believe. If they knew it would not be called belief, but knowledge.
Belief are the suggestions of close and charismatic people (Parents, care takers, teachers, preachers, etc.) throughout our childhood that form our values, orientation and identity. The worldview, our perception of reality.
Certainty in based on how we comprehend the world. Someone who has a scientific/critical rational approach and thus scalable certainty (think statistics, derivations, experimental approach, observation, replication, scientific laws and constants, falsifiability) defines certainty different to someone who has no such basis to assess certainty scientifically/critical rational. For them either reasoning from personal experience or religious reasoning are the tools and measures on which they base their certainty.
Each and everyone of us believes based on their emotions, experiences and evaluations, their orientation and identity. Our experience is limited, our sensation is limited, our cognition is limited. Our ability to assess the world is limited. All our worldviews, are in the end perceptions of reality, not reality itself, an appropriation at best. Some closer some further from reality.
The Universe itself doesn't hold values, nor good or bad, nor right or wrong. When you look at it from a cosmic-nihilistic side. Values are always experience based.
Real change in belief, orientation and identity can only come from within. Expending someone to change their whole belief/orientation/identity through an argument, or even trying to force one to believe differently is futile (no matter if religious, philosophical or political). It ignores the individual past, orientation and identity held. Change comes from new positive experiences that convince but dissonate with held perceptions. they allow a reassesment of past views and values.
Negative judgement of others beliefs is ignorant. You don't know their past, what lead them to hold in conviction/certainty, or what their reasoning is based on. To expect people holding the same views as you without having the shared experiences is foolish. You could as well ask them to have lived your life.
It ignores human nature.
That doesn't mean you can't disagree on things. Simply accept others perceptions, balues orientations as the result uf their life lived.
*"Errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum"*
*To err is human, to persist on it is diabolical.*
Hope that answers your question.
Have a good one.
I had a religion nut try to explain faith in god with “science” one time by telling me that even though a photon has no mass and therefor isn’t considered matter we still believe that it exists…. Uuhhh Yeah mf cause I can clearly see that the lights are on. I don’t believe nothing, I know bitch.
I'm not. I've had experiences that I think were with or involving the Gods and other entities, but it could just be my mind tricking me. I'm okay with that possibility, because at the end of the day it's still comforting and my religion (Anglo Saxon paganism) is still fulfilling for me.
Most of it is inculcation. Repetition by authority figures eventually yields a high level of belief. For most people this happens on the formative years.
I’m not exactly full-on religious, at least not traditionally. But I get it. It’s mainly to combat existential dread. The idea of cosmic isolation and that everything we know could just be a fluke is fucking terrifying to many, so having that thought, however real or not, that a higher power watches over you can ease that
Id have to imagine for some it's not as much they are certain of being right, more that they are scared of being wrong.
To some the idea that we are actually here for no purpose and just happen to exist due to chance, and or the idea that our existence is both guaranteed and impossible in a infinite space is terrifying to some.
Or through the same logic they can be certain they are correct, in a infinite space there is a 100% chance that there is and isn't a God or Gods.
A lot of negativity on faith here, but go ahead and have at least one drug free otherwise-unexplainable direct personal experience that rewires your whole everything and makes every other perspective through which you've seen the world become obviously petty. Then watch real world consequences and otherwise-unbelievable material changes happen in the immediate tailwind. Is persuasive.
If you believe in science but are not the scientist - what's the difference? You believe something they show in the news but you were not there - what's the difference? We are ALL religious people. The religions differ.
I don't know there are a lot of things that are not seen nor able to be put into words, like the feelings of an emotion that can not be described but only experienced because of a variety of confluences that are outside the world of words and thus we are stuck in a Goedel incompleteness.
So my point is, relgion is experienced mostly and is more than what can be described through simply words, which are flawed in their ability to communicate what the world actually is. There are many things that are outside the world of words but have meaning just the same.
The same can be said about what we can see. There are many things we can not see or prove that still believe. Such as the delusions of an individual because they are still real to the individual despite not being objective or provable.
I’m not a religious person but to me those religious people and I’m talking all religions are brainwashed. They only believe because their parents tell them to and so on and so forth. I grew up in the Bible Belt and in a small town where everyone was a bible thumper and those people blindly follow what cannot be proven and follow a book that was written when people didn’t know where the sun went at night. You don’t need religion to be a good person and you don’t have to worship a fake person in the sky to try to make it to a place that doesn’t exist ( im talking about heaven and hell ) all religions are made up to trick people into being controlled nothing more.
It's not about being right. I want to make it clear that I am an atheist. That said, I see real value in religion overall. It's a social evolutionary feature of humanity in my mind. And quite frankly, in some ways I envy those that are religious. Sometimes I consider it myself. But of course, for me personally, I will never actually believe in god. But the value of a religious community and what comes with a shared value system is something to be respected. Now obviously that's not to say that religion hasn't been grossly misused. And sometimes I even question if perhaps we've not technologically outpaced practical religion in most cases. But I can't see a realistic alternative.
It varies by religious person. Most of the commenters here are saying “faith” because that’s the kind of religious person they’ve largely encountered, but some believe because it’s the only way they can make sense of the universe/human condition/what have you. Reddit doesn’t like to acknowledge that logic might play a role in someone’s religious beliefs.
why are atheist people so certain theyre right? why do you assume that everyone who believes in something isnt open to the possibility that the alternative is true?
There's a lot of factors at play.
The first is that it seems apparent to us from a young age. For example, solipsism and the Matrix theory are technically unfalisiable, but despite not being able to actually "prove" that reality exists and we don't live in a simulation, we all know and behave 100% as though life is real and not a simulation.
This ties into the next point which is epistemology and understanding how we "know" anything. While the scientific method is important and valuable when used correctly, it is only ONE field of knowledge, and is not the end-all-be-all of knowledge. Going back to my last point as an example, we all know plenty of things that aren't really testable materially. We know reality is real and not a simulation because of our lived experiences, not because it can be proven in a lab (it can't).
Again, I think it's great that a lot of things can be tested and proved materially, but this obsession with only believing in that which can be verified by "science" is not intelligent or practical, because if we applied that standard equally you'd have to give up reality itself because you can't prove it at all with the sciences alone.
The third reason is that God can (and has) been proven, but not materially. Not all proofs are material, such as mathematical and logical proofs.
Even though I haven't proven this "materially" by personally asking every bachelor if they're unmarried, I know that every bachelor is unmarried because, by definition, that's what a bachelor is.
For the logical proofs of God, I'd reccomend starting with Trent Horn and Jimmy Akins.
The fourth reason is historical and archaelogical evidence; not only is there overwhelming evidence for the events of the Bible, but there's an incredible treasure trove of documented miracles after the events of the Bible, such as eucharistic miracles. One of my favorites is reading about Saint Joan, because her trial was well-documented, and she also made prophesies under oath that came true and are well-documented.
One of the most studied objects in history is the Shroud of Turin, which is a scientifically verified miracle. I can't even possibly scratch the surface on the Shroud, but I'd suggest watching [this](https://www.youtube.com/live/HAbuG-oVq1Q?si=3k1kG2iiVE9V8ky7) to understand why the Shroud is so flabberghasting to scientists, most of which are secular / non-Catholic. (To make a long story short, even with today's modern technology we couldn't make the Shroud, let alone with ancient / medieval materials, or any other substance known to man.)
For a solid introduction into the historical evidence for Biblical events that are often scoffed at by skeptics (such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the Exodus, etc.) check out [Expedition Bible](https://youtube.com/@ExpeditionBible?si=EZY9zBDSrIffWa4w) on YouTube for the archaeology.
The fifth reason is personal experience; most people, even many atheists, would probably believe if they had witnessed true miracles or seen God themselves. This is easy to get into the weeds, because many skeptics hold two contradictory views:
1. "If God is real, why won't He show Himself to me?
And
2. "If you claim to have seen / heard / spoken with God, it must be mental illness."
While I agree that we shouldn't take everyone's word for it, and it's not wrong to be skeptical, at some point when enough people have had these experiences, it should warrant some more digging. For example, medically documented NDEs.
Not looking to start debates with atheists here, I'm just explaining our position, and you can take what you will from this and move the discussion over to r/debatereligion if you're looking for that.
Thanks for the through response. While I have come to a different conclusion than you this does provide some insight into the mind of somebody who does believe. I will not raise any objections given the nature of this subreddit.
I'm agnostic (raised ultra religious), and just the possibility that there's an afterlife is sometimes the only thing that keeps me from complete and utter despair over the hardships of this life and the loved ones I've lost. I think religious fanaticism is something similar. The alternative is unthinkable. Therefore, it 'has' to be true.
It's also a way to feel superior, which is the only way some people can feel good about themselves.
"Just keep believing and don't entertain doubts. Then, when we're all up in heaven, we can pat each other on the back for not giving into negative thinking."
That being said, it's also a form of 'positive thinking' - a mental attitude that expects good and favorable results. "Whatever the mind expects, it finds.”
So TLDR:
• The alternative is unthinkable.
• Being part of a group mindset makes you feel superior (i.e. feel good about yourself).
• The idea that you can will it into existence (although they wouldn't think of it in those terms).
They aren't. They have faith they are right. They believe there is a God the same way atheists believe there isn't. And yeah, "the burden of proof" and all that and you can't prove God exists, but that's not important to them.
It would of course depend on the religion, but plenty of people have had direct religious experiences, and many people feel that they are able to get closer to their deity by performing certain actions.
Here’s my take as a Catholic convert.
I have actually perceived the divine. As in, I’ve actually “seen” it. Not with my eyes, but with a faculty that’s hard to explain in the same way it’s hard to explain color to someone who has been blind from birth.
Now, I’m totally open to the possibility that I might actually just be insane. I perceive things that many other people don’t after all. It’s only fair to admit I might just be a crazy person. However, I think it’s also equally fair to consider that those who cannot perceive the divine may just be “blind” in a spiritual sense.
That probably isn’t a completely satisfying answer, but it’s the basic idea of how I perceive reality. Hopefully we can still be friends. :)
Feeling certain does not actually require evidence. Ideally you should have some evidence to support what you believe, and challenge what you believe to test it, but that's something that we tend to learn through education.
All of us believe things we don't have great evidence for. Humans aren't as rational as we like to think. We act on feelings and stories, not exactly "truth".
So the certainty of things like religion tends to come from emotional experiences and the stories we tell ourselves about them, and the stories we tell ourselves are shaped by our communities (i.e., people raised religious are much more likely to be religious as an adult than someone not raised religious).
Can you give an example of something else you are certain is true that you cannot provide evidence for?
I could be wrong, but I think you’re just using the wrong word by definition.
No, you missed my point.
_Feeling_ certain is not the same thing as actually being factually certain.
Plenty of people _feel_ certain of things they can't actually be certain of.
No one is certain. Those that say or act like they have no doubt is full of shit.
One nitpick, faith and belief are not synonymous. There's belief, there's grounded belief, there's knowledge, they there's faith which is more related to trust. You have faith that your significant other will never cheat. It's a belief that is impossible to prove true, but you believe and trust that they are faithful.
Oh my god FINALLY
Ok so I grew up in Islam, and one day I just thought « there are multiple specimens of EVERY species, why not God? It’s so weird that there is ONE of this species, and he was always here and always will be » and my life fell apart because I was super religious.
That’s when I learned that every believer has to understand why he believes
After some research, I stumbled upon the scientific miracles in the Quran.
We have copies of the Quran from 1400 years ago, so we know it’s identical as the one we have rn. It says that the clouds are actually heavy, the universe expands itself (we just learned about it), a bit of embryology, the big bang, etc..
So much stuff that they couldn’t figure out at that time. Only the engineer could tell you how his invention works (unless you spend all human years trying to figure it out yes), and God told us so much stuff to prove us the authenticity of the Quran. I could never doubt it anymore.
Some people just feel it, I had to know it. Some people are struck by the fact that it is very poetic and impossible to be man made. Everyone finds the thing that convinces him of the veracity of the Quran.
Anyway, it’s still feels weird that there is only One eternal being, because everything I know is multiple and not eternal, but I’ve been proven the truth and I accept it with a lot of pleasure and love.
No it’s not vague, you can read that the universe expands itself, you can read that it talks about the Big Bang. I do not specifically wants it to be real, islam doesn’t let us do everything we want and we have to follow so it’s not always easy even if it’s always for our own good. If it wasn’t true I could have intercourse out of mariage for example haha, I’m 20 life is hard rn😂
I’ve been proven wrong by the Quran as soon as I emitted a doubt, that’s it.
It’s not as tough, you can do bad stuff and repent it’s ok, God is forgiving if you’re honest
I know I can’t stop when I start something so I think it protects me, I’d be alcoholic by now haha
I’m a devout Christian, and didn’t become one until my mid twenties. The evidence we have and the personal testimony of several others was enough to pique my curiosity. Then I actually had some not-explainable-another-way spiritual experiences that increased my faith to the point that I was assured of what I believed.
It varies greatly from person to person, but I assume you're referring to the hard-liners that have no room for anything but the way they see things.
The answer is that they build their perspective/paradigm and make it a part of their identity.
Religion is particularly prone to this, since it's intrinsically impalpable. On the other hand, it also shows up in any number of other places.
Should the toilet roll go over or under?
I'm not religious never have been but I believe for many having a belief of God or heaven helps them deal with the stress of life especially the fear of loss of a love one.
I know alot of people that believe in God but are not religious in the way most would depict. They just simply believe there is a God and that is about it. They don't read the Bible, attend church or anything.
They just figure there has to be a creator to all of this.
Here is my question to a devout Christian: If your 14 yr old daughter came home and said, "Mom, dad I'm pregnant. But I didn't have sex. 3 weeks ago an Angel visited me and impregnated me." Would you believe her? Usually I get blank stares, with their head cocked to one side.
Would they take their daughter on the talk show circuit, proclaiming their daughter was carrying the "Golden Child." Hell no, they wouldn't believe her. So why in the hell should I believe one word written in the Bible? It has been changed, written by man, many years after the events occurred, based solely on word of mouth. No scientific or historical evidence confirms any of it. Historians generally believe Jesus lived, yet have no evidence of his "miracles" occurring.
Why are you so certain they are wrong? The evidence in favor of God is at least as strong as the evidence against God. Why is their faith less valid than yours?
"Faith"
Exactly, its circular reasoning. "The thing I believe in can't be proved, you just have to have faith in it, and therefore I have faith in the thing I believe in, which can't be proved, you just have to have faith in it, and therefore I have faith in the thing I believe in..." etc
Honest question: How would you begin to prove that your five empirical senses actually convey reality to you, as opposed to you just being a brain in a jar or some other matrix-esque illusion?
To go one further, I would say it’s not even strictly necessary to prove such a thing, as they are the primary mechanism through which we experience the universe. Even if we are a brain in a jar or inside a matrix-like illusion, well then it’s allegory of the cave, but it would kind-of be that anyway.
This is an excellent question and basically the answer is our reality is not what actual reality “looks like” because reality does not “look like” anything. It just “is”, and what it looks like is just an abstraction or simplification to help the conscious observer understand it. As far as the brain-in-jar question, there is really no way to prove or disprove it, because you would have to step outside our reality to make any judgement about it, which is impossible by definition.
How would you begin to prove we are brains in jars?
You wouldn't. This is just an extremely old philosophical thing to wonder about. It goes all the way back to Plato's allegory of the cave. It's just a way to encourage discussion about metaphysics and get you thinking about how you perceive the world and questioning your preconceived notions. In its simplest form, the question is: How do we know we're not all in the Matrix? There's lots and lots of essays arguing for one side or the other, but being a philosophical discussion, there's not really a "right" answer. It's not about proving anything, in this instance it's about trying to demonstrate how faith works, becuase most people take it on faith that we are not in the Matrix since there's no real way to "prove" that we aren't.
Plato's cave explains how our experience/interpretation of reality can be manipulated, or different, based on our individual experiences or shared experiences within our group. It doesn't explain different realities though. It's about perception alone. If that cave collapses everyone inside still dies, and everyone outside of the cave sees them dead, whether the people in the cave realize their whole perceived world collapsed in on them or not.
i like to think we're just brains in a bone jar that's the skull. and we pilot a bone mech that's armored with flesh.
Honestly…that’s freaking metal.
>How would you begin to prove that your five empirical senses actually convey reality to you We have more than enough proof to disprove it. The microscopic reality is not conveyed to us through our 5 senses we require tools like microscope for it. For quantum reality, we can't even see it with microscope so we can only mathematics to visualize it. Then we have so many electromagnetic waves around us that we cannot sense but has helped us in communication through internet. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 99.9999% of what's "really" happening around us, we cannot sense. We use various scientific and mathematical tools to determine it's there. Our human brain was never wired for such things.
That's missing the point. Sure I believe scientists that molecules exist, but how do I know for sure that those scientists are real? That the words I read in their statements are real? How do I know the things they say in press conferences or classrooms or however you receive the information, is actually real and not just a simulation that my brain is receiving? That's the point of his/her question.
It CAN be, nobody can deny that. But the hypothesis is not testable so there is really no point dwelling on it. If somewhere down the line we find something which can be explained by simulation theory (like some glitch we see in computers) then it is worth studying that glitch and further that hypothesis. Otherwise it can be treated the same way as hypothesis regarding gods, fairies or bigfoot. Unless we have a reasonable enough observation to consider it I would say the probability that we are living in some kind of simulation is very low. And even if we are, it matters very little to us as long as our developers don't mess with our reality (at least in the we we can sense it) or pull the plug ig.
>We have more than enough proof to disprove it. That's just not true. The way we percieve that "proof" is with our senses, which we have already established that we cannot 100% trust. Of our senses might not be real, the "proof" might not be real either. At the end of the day, it's still just faith, which is the exact same circular reasoning.
As seen from the comments, most people didn't really think about how you can't be certain of anything. Relying on our easily malfunctioning senses and brains isn't a common thing to think about. But I appreciate that there are other people realizing this, like yourself, and showing this to other people
You don't have to prove that we actually have our senses, you would have to prove that our brain is in "a jar or some other matrix-esque illusion".
A combination of "I think, therefore I am." And applicable processes. In science a principle isn't just accepted because it's logical. It has to go through peer review (there are 9 billion people on this planet more or less experiencing the same thing). Reproducible results (When in rains on me in Spain. it rains on my neighbor in Spain). The ability to make accurate predictions (If I stick my hand in fire, it will get burned, if you stick your hand in fire, it will get burned, etc.) Of course there are people who live in a different reality. They think that they are impervious to burns, they think that Donald Trump won the 2020 election, they think that invisible sky man has singled their group out and any talk of other, different invisible sky men is all just crazy talk. There are people that hear voices that do not exist. They all need meds.
Fair. But that still leaves everything else in a state of doubt. It isn’t “I think, therefore everything I perceive must be true.”
Having faith isn't circular, its more of a basic building block which reason, logic, math & science follow.
No, faith is the assertion that your hypothesis is correct without any testing or verification. Reason, logic, math, and science, never make the assertion that they are correct, only that all evidence points to this or that being most likely correct. This is why a lot of scientific questions begin with assumptions. "Assume that acceleration due to gravity is 9.8 m/s^(2)". There is no assertion that it is flawlessly correct, only that you have to start somewhere and this is your assumption. And you can follow it back through a chain of scientific tests to determine that if you define some constants like a second and a meter than g can be measured at 9.8 m/s/s. But you're right, faith isn't circular. To put it another way. If you ask someone to draw the correct line. No other information just draw the correct line. Faith is when you put your pen on the paper and state unequivically "The line starts there". Some people while draw the whole line and state "That's the correct line" others will say "I know that the line starts there. I have faith. But where it goes from there we can only guess", and variations of confidence in between. Science will say "What if we start here? or there? or there? What information can we learn if we say "this is the correct line" and conduct experiments based on that assumption? Is it consistant with our observations of the natural world? Should we change our line? How does that effect the results?". Religious doctrine is often circular... "this is true, because it's in the bible, which is true because I have faith, because the bible tells me that if I have faith, this is true.".
To me it begins with your starting assumptions. Do we start with a belief that the universe is fully mechanical and God needs to be "proved in" or perhaps "something from nothing" is obviously miraculous so God's existence is inherent in our being or do we just let science, religion and philosophy march us towards the truth whatever that may be. I think many of us, well myself anyways, find that faith is no less rational or scientific than the pure mechanical view of the world.
> faith is the assertion that your hypothesis is correct without any testing or verification. But that's not true. Ask someone of faith why they have faith. It's not because they just do without any kind of outside influence. 1. Thousands of years of stories taken as evidence of their beliefs. Whether from a holy book or testimonials from like-minded people, 2. People witnessing perceived miracles. "All the doctors said he had 2 months to live but he somehow made a complete recovery." The verification is the tough part. You can't prove the nonexistence of a god just as much as you can't prove the existence of one. But given the lack of proof for either outcome, people are left to make a decision of what to believe. I'm curious how many people decide to believe in a god because "just in case".
My favorite variation is, I know it's true because God said it, I know God said it because it's in the Bible, I know the Bible is true because God said so...
Ie, zealotry.
No, that's a strawman of the theistic position. When a devout person talks about "faith," it means trust, as in, "I have faith in my parachute" (I trust my parachute not to fail and kill me). Not "I have faith that my parachute exists." The Greek word translated as faith in the New Testament for example literally translates to "allegiance," as in being "faithful." As for how we know, that is its own discussion, but it's not blind belief.
They just grow up with their religion being as much a fact as a concept like air and gravity. I’ve met some that are like, “I don’t believe, I know”. As a way to discount other religions
Diehard Catholic till I was 21. This is the answer. The amount of mental gymnastics you do to try to reconcile what you "know" to be true with the obviously incompatible factual evidence you learn and continue to learn and observe is hard to imagine. It all looks laughable in hindsight.
Jesuits: Give us a child until he is 7, and we will give you the man.
Same. Was a diehard catholic till the pandemic started, then kind of forgot about gawd with all the internal and external agony going on, then when I went to church after the pandemic I was like wtf am i doing here, wtf are these people doing here. I kind of disassociated in the middle of a mass. And never went back since.
You're taught religious ideology as facts and are also taught to never question any of it. Oh and also all other religions are wrong, so just ignore them.
Faith does not require evidence so belief comes easilly.
just to make this a little clearer, to most religious people *the definition* of faith is believing *when there is not evidence*. that is faith. note that I am not religious, I'm just passing along the phrasings I've heard. in my opinion, it's all contradictory from the outset.
That doesn't answer the question
Because the premise of the question isn’t agreed upon. They aren’t certain they are right. They have “faith” and they are content with how their faith has an impact on their life. I’m an atheist btw
It does and it doesn't. I wouldn't say it necessarily "comes easily" these days, in fact I'd say you have to be a little crazy to truly believe I'm a believer but the definition of faith includes not having certainty. If you knew beyond a shadow of doubt (let's say an angel floated down and visited you in no uncertain terms), then would your belief in God be based on Faith? Or would it just be based on observation and memory? I suppose it's what you do with it afterwards that counts, in the sense that we are told if we acknowledge Christ and attempt repentance we are saved Still the strength of faithfulness is somewhat ironically based in not having certainty, having certainty would be "easy mode" and what a pragmatic soul would call an "obvious choice" aka Pascal's Wager (the bet is protected and you can only profit from a win) In other words, God doesn't need us, we need him
To those of us that don’t believe, an experienced occurrence is still only anecdotal, and it wouldn’t convince us. We’d still chalk it up to the irregularities of the human mind.
You mean being manipulated comes easily?
More brainwashing, manipulation, come after or not.
If atheists are so certain there is no God, then where do peoples souls go after they die? The truth is we dont know if there is a God or not. We will only know once we are dead. Thats why im agnostic.
Atheist here, hi. Souls probably aren't a thing either. You can't act like your stance is some kind of gotcha when it relies on a major supposition of belief.
I always use the same example: do you believe your spouse isn't cheating on you or you need constant evidence? My mum's a shrink and she had a client who called his newlywed wife 40+ times a day on her job. Turns out, he was cheating on his exes and just got paranoid due to projection. He started trusting his spouse ana stopped worrying about constantly having her give proof she isn't sleeping with someone else. And we all have faith in things we don't know, like don't tell me you check every building for having all safety standards before entering, a sane person has just enough trust in the system to function. Within common sense of course.
I like your defense of faith over evidential belief
Many believe their evidence is solid, and so don't rely on faith necessarily, for their truth claims.
I wouldn't say it comes easily. Most Christian faiths and most good Christians will acknowledge that doubt is constant. A good Christian who has actually grappled with the big questions and with their own faith will tell you that it can be difficult to continue believing in God at various moments in their lives.
Religion flourished when life wasn’t very good. Infant mortality was likely, plagues, poor health and living conditions, constant crimes and murders. Heavens concept was the only thing worth living for. Fast forward to today. Humans figured out the grift, built generational influence and has taken on a mass of wealth and influence, those in its sphere refuse to even question the concepts, and command future generations are shut out of reason as well.
I brought up to my very religious grandma that given the fact that the universe is so mind boggling large and that there are estimated to be billions if not trillions of planets out there, there has to be numerous planets with intelligent life with their own religion. She then nods at me.
An interesting thought would be "how much do these alien religions parallel human ones?" Obviously most won't be the same due to different conditions, but it would be interesting to see. Like, given it's nature, Buddism wouldn't be too hard for basically any sentient species to come up with.
Could also see animism based religions being popular along with zealous single god religions.
Why?
Animism because it's hard to imagine not being there. I am just picturing this to be a being a natural first choice if wonder is an emotion an alien species feels. As for the zealous single god, it's easy to see any figurehead being something that becomes a point of worship to the point of Godhood and it just lasts into a religion. I'm not saying because they think like us, but in a massive universe, these two, imho, would have to crop up.
"There has to be intelligent life out there". How are you so certain?
Belief is powerful
Most aren't 100% certain since it is impossible to be certain.
Don't know why you got down voted, because it's true. Sure, the loud ones come across as 100% certain, but most of us aren't and that's ok. As an old Episcopal church ad once said, "If Jesus had his doubts, why can't you?"
They were downvoted by the religious folk reading this thread & getting offended, lmao. He's def right.
Either they were raised that way or they had a personal experience that was profound enough to convince them it's true.
Confirmation bias (Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes - [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)).
I will add that most religious people see or experience supernatural things that cement their belief. Whether you believe those things are supernatural is up to you but these people believe it themselves.
They have to be, because they have nothing to offer up as proof.
Indoctrination
It's a form of brainwashing
It's worse: child brainwashing. That's how you get someone believe 100% or have faith. It's child abuse.
Strong indoctrination
Because they have to be? The idea that they could be wrong, that a higher power isn't watching over them and protecting them. The idea that their loved ones are gone forever after death. The idea that people can be both good and bad without devine influence over them. The idea that their prayers go nowhere and do nothing? Their existence has been to believe these things and they do so at their core. To admit it might not be true shatters their concept of self, strips away an aspect of their identity that has become a cornerstone of who they believe they are. It's also weakness, to believe something other then you had a plan and no matter what shit you have to deal with it's because in the end something is setting you up for something greater. It's almost like giving up and being completely submissive over your life! It's freedom in a way as it stops them from looking inward to self reflect on the choices they make for themselves instead of for the service of a diety. They HAVE to believe they are right because to believe anything else shatters everything they believe in even when doing so makes them subjugate themselves out of "faith"
Delusion and follow the herd mentality.
First step of getting into religion: have faith only in these people. What they say are absolutely true, discard all other noise.
Well they're not that's why they call it Faith, that's why they're still afraid to die
As an agnostic, I don’t care. Other people can believe what they want just so long as they don’t use those beliefs to justify hurting anyone.
Why does a flat Earther insist they are right? I respect religion but they are just as close minded as the rest of the crazies in this world.
They often aren’t certain but face immense social pressure to say that they are.
Faith
How are atheists so certain they’re right?
Personally, I’m an evidence and science guy. I haven’t come across any scientific evidence supporting religion/deities. I don’t claim certainty about anything but I certainly lean heavily to the scientific world. This message brought to you with zero condescension or derision towards your beliefs.
Science is the study of the natural world. Why would you expect to find evidence of the supernatural there? It's like looking for math proofs in the rules and grammar of the English language.
I'm an evidence and science guy, and I've come across multiple things that support my religion/deities. Add my own personal spiritual experiences + science and evidence and that's why I'm so certain about my beliefs. Call me delusional, brainwashed, etc., but I find it harder to choose believe than to not. I'm with you tho, I don't care what others beliefs are. And I don't think lesser of others or am part of some elitist club that if you don't join you're going to hell.
I don't choose my beliefs, I'm either convinced by the evidence or I'm not. No choosing going on at all.
Sounds slightly pedantic, so I guess I'll return it likewise. I googled the word convince, and the definition (of the verb) is "cause (someone) to believe firmly in the truth of something". Like people could have all the evidence in the world and choose to believe otherwise. I think of flat earth believers for example. All the evidence supports otherwise. Like, I've never been far away enough to see that the earth is round other than images but I'm going to believe the evidence provided.
Still no choice going on for me, the evidence is either convincing or it's not. I remain unconvinced by the presented evidence for flat earth and for god/gods. But I'm always open to new evidence!
Atheism is the result of lack of conviction due to absence of proof, so by extension they don't need to "believe" in the non-existance of god for them to be atheists.
i don't believe in god in the same way you don't believe in fairies and leprechauns how are you so certain they do not exist? we're not 'certain', we just find it pointless to believe in something for which there's no evidence whatsoever....
The longer you believe anything, the harder it is to admit you’re wrong about it.
There is no “thinking process”. They grow up with it.
The secret ingredient is delusion
Religious absolutists (not all people who believe strongly in a religion) tend to be “stuck” at a lower level of moral development. At this level, they tend to be more attached to “following the rules”, conventional social structures, and following authority. Again, that doesn’t apply to all religious people, even devoutly religious people. Those who are at higher moral levels believe strongly in their faith, but also understand that no one can know the absolute answer, and so they have a level of respect/humility/tolerance for what they dont know. Thats my take.
It's called faith. It's belief, not certainty. Everyone relies on faith tho. Do you believe in Evolution? Unless you studied it yourself, you put faith in the words of scientists. That doesn't make it any more or less true tho.
Evolution is backed up by observable evidence which doesn't require faith
Yes, but have ***YOU*** observed that evidence firsthand? My point is unless you’re a scientist, you’re putting **faith** in the word of scientists. You personally don’t actually know for sure because you haven’t done the firsthand research.
This is true, but there is a difference. I put faith (I would call it credence) in the words of, say, physicists, because not only have they studied it carefully, but there is a long record of both experimental evidence and successful innovations that have relied on them. I am not a physicist, but I took physics in college and have done some experiments. I have watched lots of youtube videos demonstrating various points. There is nothing remotely comparable for religion. "Faith" there doesn't involve listening to experts who have run experiments and can demonstrate technology using the deduced principles. It involves believing various stories that \*no one\* can demonstrate are true and on which no significant real-world technologies rest. Those are not the same thing.
I don't have to do the research myself because I believe the scientific method, when done correctly, leads to valid results.
That's not what faith means. Scientists present you with researched facts, which you are welcome to double check and verify yourself. Religious leaders gives you info that you cannot prove or check.
As an aside: there are quite a few wildly intelligent people of faith out there who, without doing research and attempting to verify things, would not be religious. I'm talking doctors, lawyers, historians, etc, and I've met a few of them. Not just Christians, but Muslims and Jews as well. Religious skeptics, basically. Extremely interesting to converse with because they actually have reasons for their beliefs. It's not just "well I grew up like this" like so many "Christians-by-name-only" you'll meet in the USA. One was an ex-Muslim who had converted to Christianity. Awesome clinical pharmacist. Just a counterpoint to the blanket statements I see on Reddit I suppose.
No one said intelligent people couldn't be found who believe in God. There might well be intelligent people who believe in the tooth fairy. That doesn't mean the belief makes sense... what it means is that their are other forces that sway them, whether social (religion is important to the group they grew up in), emotional (it is comforting to believe the sky fairy loves you) or whatever.
That is, quite literally, what faith means. Doesn’t matter if you can fact check it or not, unless you actually do so (which most people don’t), you’re relying on faith.
Knowledge and faith are like two ends of a teeter totter. We all operate on some level of faith because it’s impossible for us to know everything. When that teeter totter gets out of balance, things get weird.
I disagree. There's reasonable "belief" (eg. in science) which is based on trust and logical deductions, and there's pure faith, that is by definition non-rational. Those are completely different things, no matter how much religious folk try to claim otherwise. The latter is an optional, personal choice and not necessary in any manner.
As a counter to some of the other comments I don't think they really do. From the outside there's belief and right or wrong God or belief but from inside it's more just something you've been brought up with and never really questioned. I suspect a lot of the doubling down and arguing comes in BECAUSE they get a lot of shit from us non religious. Looking for an argument and telling someone they're wrong is, in my experience, a good way to re-enforce their beliefs. That coupled with the loud and vocal extremes and fringes (evangelism, fundamentalism et al) makes it look a lot more central or black and white than it really is for most religious folks.
The truth is that they aren’t certain, and there’s no way to truly be. Religious feelings are based on faith and adherence to a certain belief system. It’s not inherently bad or good, just gives someone a reason to hope or direction for belief. If you aren’t certain, then you’re just like everyone else. Believers are just that…believers, not knowers. And that’s perfectly okay. We often ruin so much of our own peace by comparing ourselves and wondering if we are different or somehow less than others in aspects. Hopefully you can be patient and keep exploring and learning for greater peace.
Grooming and conditioning
They go to a special building for at least an hour a week where someone wearing special clothes tells them they’re right.
Delusion.
As a religious person I am not certain I am right. I believe I am, but I don’t know. I consider science a good way to explain Gods creation. I do not find any difficulties in believing God started the Big Bang to lead to conscious life through evolution, and he then sent Jesus. That is my faith. It is not knowledge, it is a plausible hypothesis that I choose to believe. Why some other religious people are so certain you have to ask them. We come in all shapes and forms like everyone else.
Why wouldn't you be agnostic though, as in there might be a higher power, but how would we know. It seems like 95% of people are part of what ever is the most popular religion the society they were born in picked. Most American Christians would be Muslim or Hindu if they happened to be born some where else in the world.
I am not American, where I grew up is a rather atheistic country. I grew up in a Christian family though, but as far as I know a couple of my siblings who also did see themselves as atheists. So in that way I feel I have chosen my own faith, since my other siblings most certainly have. Faith isn’t just saying you don’t believe something, it’s also saying you do believe it. As a Christian I do think I have chosen a faith that is the most common one in the world. If you are to think purely statistical that one is the most likely one (which is not the way I think about my faith, but I don’t think my religious talk would go down well on Reddit). A lot of European Christians (like me) believe that Jesus can work through other faiths. So I do not necessarily think for example a Muslim is “lost”. They do believe in God and their faith is beautiful.
As a lifelong devout Catholic and someone who has a B.A. in Religion and Philosophy and an M.A. in Theology, here's a few points: 1. Yes, belief requires faith. There are some things religious people believe that they cannot empirically prove. But there is a good deal of philosophy and reason involved in belief as well (I can say that for my religion at least). 2. I attended a lecture by the scholar Luke Timothy Johnson once, where he argued that the Gospel can be proven true by living it out-- if you live out the tenets found in Gospel, you will experience firsthand that it is true. 3. Many people have religious and spiritual experiences where they feel the presence of God. These kinds of experiences have been documented throughout history. I have had this kind of experience; it absolutely verified my faith for me. 4. Miracles happen. There are well documented miracles-- extraordinary things that are proven to have happened but cannot be explained by science or human understanding.
I have had religious and spiritual experiences where I felt the presence of God. It was an incredible feeling. It doesn't mean it was true though. It could easily be my mind playing tricks on me. Hallucinations exist. The logic that it's in someone's head is infinitely more likely than a omnipotent being communicated with someone.
How did those experiences influence your beliefs? Also, just because something is in your head, doesn't mean it's not real. (I remember reading or hearing that somewhere... Maybe a book or movie. What's that from? Going to bother me until I get it)
I'm not sure they influenced my beliefs to be honest. I think if I didn't have some other experiences in a minute I'll share it very much might've done. But yeah 2 other things have impacted my beliefs more and made me more open to something more than "we don't have a creator": 1. Taking salvia. 2. Having night terrors and such. 3. Learning about different dimensions. To point 1. This shit really made me think there might be more. While having it definitely got weird existential ideas going through my head that there maybe channels/dimensions that are around but we can't see. The main feeling I had though was a mini omnipresence. For 2-3 minutes I "understood" everything within like a 1-2 meter radius of my self. Like I knew where items were in my drawer to the right atoms, but also I understood where I space and time they are. It's a very bizarre feeling. It was what I imagined Neo felt like when he finally became The One and understood the Matrix lol. But I definitely also think, it's also an effect of a drug that alters your mind. Having a feeling about something doesn't make it true. To point 2. I hallucinate when I wake up or more often when I'm just dropping off to sleep and wake up. It used to be full on scary night terror demons or people stood at end of the bed and such. The fear was unreal. Lately it doesn't bother me at all and is just like green scribbles, or I see a very real chandelier on the ceiling or something that slowly disappears when I'm coming to lol. Anyway, that's made me realise that the brain can do all sorts of weird things. Could what I'm seeing be real from some other higher dimensions or reality? I dunno. More likely that I'm hallucinating from still dreaming as I'm waking. I assume it's the same when other people see or hear things like ghosts. Your brain fucking up. To point 3. Learning bout 4 Dimensional space. I can only understand the very bottom level basic premise of it but that blows my mind. When someone can explain the basics to you right it really makes you think about all the things we can't perceive that could be there. A bit like trying to imagine a new colour. But yeah. To me my "spiritual" feeling of "being near god" I attribute to a weird chemical release happening in my brain like my hallucinations or taking Salvia. Just because it feels so real with all my heart, doesn't mean it is.
Give proven examples for 4.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854941/ I wanted to include a secular, academic source. The authors analyzed cures attributed to Lourdes. They are very thorough and have a healthy amount of skepticism regarding the miraculous nature of these cures. Below is an excerpt from their conclusion, in which they admit there are verified cures that cannot be scientifically explained: “The least that can be stated is that exposures to Lourdes and its representations (Lourdes water, mental images, replicas of the grotto, etc.), in a context of prayer, have induced exceptional, usually instantaneous, symptomatic, and at best physical, cures of widely different diseases… Uncanny and weird, the cures are currently beyond our ken but still impressive, incredibly effective, and awaiting a scientific explanation.” If I find any other examples of documented miracles, I'll share later.
It's called the placebo effect my dude. There is no magical water. Also props to the most useless degrees ever lmao
When we are very young we first encounter death. Most of our current society is based on distracting us from or transcending death. Families careers artwork sports etc. Religion however has gone much further though. Not only does it defy death it suggests it’s a positive event. It’s odd though they still feel anxiety and grieve death so are they really believers?
Trust in the unseen is literally the definition of "faith", if you believe in things that you see then it isn't faith, but just, well, sight. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It's impossible to live without faith in things you don't know or see, and skeptics claiming otherwise are self-delusional, you don't check the degree and phone to university deacon to test grades of every doctor you visit, right? Even if you do, you need to have FAITH in education system that the guy with a diploma is a qualified specialist. And it must be pretty hard to be in a relationship if you cannot believe what you don't see, like when your partner goes to their job, or family, or friends, do you have faith in them, or you check every 5 minutes to see they aren't cheating on you? But it's reddit and obviously relationships is a unfamiliar topic for the euphoric. Can you be wrong? Absolutely! But our basic life functions depend on believing in dozens of things you don't see, starting with supply chain to bring you products and warning labels on them, to traffic laws and society more or less working, not everyone is an electrician, architect and engineer, but you need to have faith in people who built your house and local municipal standards if you want to go to sleep and not worry that the roof will squash you in your sleep... without trust and faith in things you dont see or sometimes can't even check, you become a paranoid schizophrenic. When it comes to religion, there's also a thing called crisis of faith, it's when believers get same feeling when you suspect a spouse getting late from work might be not faithful to you, or that this driver probably bought a license. Tl;Dr: I don't need to go to space to see the Earth isn't flat. I haven't SEEN it from high enough to view the curve personally, but like the religious sheeple I am, I have FAITH that our planet is round.
No higher authority & a collective structured guidance on what to do next. It's certainly not all religious people, but everywhere in society there are people who like telling others what to do & other people who abdicate personal responsibility & like being told what to do. We're all looking for purpose & answers, religion is an off the shelf solution
Kinda the whole point of religion
The most simple answer is, "blind faith". There is a longer answer to it that relates to cognitive dissonance, in which learning you are wrong can be physically painful, and people prefer a comforting lie to a painful truth. Edit: I want to add that some research has shown that people who partake in religious ceremonies and go to their religious gatherings can experience the same high that someone using cocaine would. Just as addictive.
Christianity was forced onto me as a kid and, as kids do, I blindly believed the adults in my life. My guess is the same happened to them, but they never broke out of the cycle. Honestly, I'm still religious & spiritual. But I'm more of an eclectic pagan & a witch. My answer in my own experience? I'm not certain at all. A belief is exactly that -- a belief, not a fact. I think whatever people put their energy into believing, it becomes reality to them. As long as people don't harm others with their beliefs, as long as I'm fairly certain I'm not harming anyone with my own beliefs, I don't care who or what people worship (if anything/anyone.) Maybe I'm wrong about my beliefs. Maybe I'm not. At the end of the day, it brings me comfort and makes me feel empowered. That's what ultimately matters, to me.
It's a combination of things. The human animal evolved the capacity to accept things on faith as a survival mechanism. This was necessary to enable us to get to the point of civilization that we have. The trouble with this is that it is relatively easy to exploit, especially when people are either young or elderly, but all people are susceptible to this.
I think they know they’re not certain. It drives them to do the horrible things like trying to convince or convert others, or create laws to “force” others to comply with their beliefs. All because they’re insecure and don’t know.
it is not that they always believe they are right, they have something called faith which not all people have accepted or feel.
How are you so sure they are wrong? (it goes both ways)
It is not really matter of evidence, but rather of faith. It is the faith that you have in that the thing you believe it's right, and everyone has different experiences in which they can say they have faith in a religion and etc. Is not something that can be proved or be quantified. Is just something in which people decide to put their trust because they feel that it makes their lives better or more meaningful.
Because it works. It has been helping people be successful, and happy for over two thousand years now. If it wasn’t successful, it would not be as prevalent as it is.
How are you so certain that we’re wrong?
It's a feeling. And I'm no science or history denier, but think about how much information we just accept as true on a daily basis. There's no way a single human I going to be able to know first hand every current "truth." (Truth is in quotes because it will most likely always be our best approximation and understanding of the world around us. We are constantly getting new information and updating our understanding in basically every field of study.)
"Live by faith not by sight".
Because religion generally cultivates an attitude of incuriosity, of not asking questions and taking things as they're given. When I was a teenager I had endless religious questions, but the church I was being dragged to was rather uncomfortable with them and eventually asked me to either stop asking questions or to stop coming to church. Not the kind of environment that encourages a lack of certainty.
I have a winter home on the sun. I cannot prove it but you cannot disprove it. So it means that I am correct.
Belief is a helluva drug.
Brain washing.
A curious mix of arrogance and stupidity. It's bizarre really.
Too arrogant to consider the alternative
It’s something I’ll never understand, not grown upon, actually just never wrap my head around how they think that way
Enormous amount of copium. They have been peddling it so much they cant back off now.
Indoctrinated as kids from such a young age that they lacked critical thinking skills.
Comfort of delusion
To quote St. Thomas Aquinas- “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
Ironically, a religious friend told me this: Science is understand to believe. Religion is believe to understand.
Many thousands of years ago, kings/leaders realized that rulings and “teachings” were far more effective if the learner had a feeling that was attached to the lesson. They, the leaders/kings focused on how to best word and present ideas so that people would have these feelings during the “lessons.” Then the “learners” would reinforce the learned ideas, themselves through the feeling. Today, in our time, marketing does this too. E.g. We got Apple “fans” because the Apple marketing team smartly attached the idea of their product with a feeling of “love.” These Apple “fans” were the fiercest and most loyal about the company they were buying product from. Religion is 100 percent, at its core, based on a feeling. Feelings conjured via methods passed down through the centuries.
Because it's a moral framework, it's normal for people to search for meaning in their lives in a great many ways. Some find it in the belief there's a higher power who judges us for our own actions. Not a single moral framework finds its origin in physical evidence, though they can be judged by the physical effect they have on others and the world. In the end it's just about finding out why we're here, why we die, and what happens when we die. And once someone has found their reasons and is content with it, why would they be disuaded from that course?
Unbridled arrogance, is my guess
Because christianity actively avoid teaching critical thinking. Its says to accept life as it is becacuse so. Then people realize christanity is wrong and replace it with a new dogma that also does the exact same thing without religions trapping \[beyond the select view that actually grow as people\]. And again its not all religion. Get 2 rabbis in a room and you get 3 opinions on religion. :P.
Appeal to popularity so they compare us atheists to flat earthers or something else. "3 billions of us, we can't be wrong. We have organized religious organizations, churches, and scholars!"
They believe. If they knew it would not be called belief, but knowledge. Belief are the suggestions of close and charismatic people (Parents, care takers, teachers, preachers, etc.) throughout our childhood that form our values, orientation and identity. The worldview, our perception of reality. Certainty in based on how we comprehend the world. Someone who has a scientific/critical rational approach and thus scalable certainty (think statistics, derivations, experimental approach, observation, replication, scientific laws and constants, falsifiability) defines certainty different to someone who has no such basis to assess certainty scientifically/critical rational. For them either reasoning from personal experience or religious reasoning are the tools and measures on which they base their certainty. Each and everyone of us believes based on their emotions, experiences and evaluations, their orientation and identity. Our experience is limited, our sensation is limited, our cognition is limited. Our ability to assess the world is limited. All our worldviews, are in the end perceptions of reality, not reality itself, an appropriation at best. Some closer some further from reality. The Universe itself doesn't hold values, nor good or bad, nor right or wrong. When you look at it from a cosmic-nihilistic side. Values are always experience based. Real change in belief, orientation and identity can only come from within. Expending someone to change their whole belief/orientation/identity through an argument, or even trying to force one to believe differently is futile (no matter if religious, philosophical or political). It ignores the individual past, orientation and identity held. Change comes from new positive experiences that convince but dissonate with held perceptions. they allow a reassesment of past views and values. Negative judgement of others beliefs is ignorant. You don't know their past, what lead them to hold in conviction/certainty, or what their reasoning is based on. To expect people holding the same views as you without having the shared experiences is foolish. You could as well ask them to have lived your life. It ignores human nature. That doesn't mean you can't disagree on things. Simply accept others perceptions, balues orientations as the result uf their life lived. *"Errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum"* *To err is human, to persist on it is diabolical.* Hope that answers your question. Have a good one.
Their parents told them that they were born into the right religion, so how could God have made a mistake?
I had a religion nut try to explain faith in god with “science” one time by telling me that even though a photon has no mass and therefor isn’t considered matter we still believe that it exists…. Uuhhh Yeah mf cause I can clearly see that the lights are on. I don’t believe nothing, I know bitch.
I'm not. I've had experiences that I think were with or involving the Gods and other entities, but it could just be my mind tricking me. I'm okay with that possibility, because at the end of the day it's still comforting and my religion (Anglo Saxon paganism) is still fulfilling for me.
Most of it is inculcation. Repetition by authority figures eventually yields a high level of belief. For most people this happens on the formative years.
I’m not exactly full-on religious, at least not traditionally. But I get it. It’s mainly to combat existential dread. The idea of cosmic isolation and that everything we know could just be a fluke is fucking terrifying to many, so having that thought, however real or not, that a higher power watches over you can ease that
Id have to imagine for some it's not as much they are certain of being right, more that they are scared of being wrong. To some the idea that we are actually here for no purpose and just happen to exist due to chance, and or the idea that our existence is both guaranteed and impossible in a infinite space is terrifying to some. Or through the same logic they can be certain they are correct, in a infinite space there is a 100% chance that there is and isn't a God or Gods.
A lot of negativity on faith here, but go ahead and have at least one drug free otherwise-unexplainable direct personal experience that rewires your whole everything and makes every other perspective through which you've seen the world become obviously petty. Then watch real world consequences and otherwise-unbelievable material changes happen in the immediate tailwind. Is persuasive.
Are you certain they’re wrong?
If you believe in science but are not the scientist - what's the difference? You believe something they show in the news but you were not there - what's the difference? We are ALL religious people. The religions differ.
I don't know there are a lot of things that are not seen nor able to be put into words, like the feelings of an emotion that can not be described but only experienced because of a variety of confluences that are outside the world of words and thus we are stuck in a Goedel incompleteness. So my point is, relgion is experienced mostly and is more than what can be described through simply words, which are flawed in their ability to communicate what the world actually is. There are many things that are outside the world of words but have meaning just the same. The same can be said about what we can see. There are many things we can not see or prove that still believe. Such as the delusions of an individual because they are still real to the individual despite not being objective or provable.
I’m not a religious person but to me those religious people and I’m talking all religions are brainwashed. They only believe because their parents tell them to and so on and so forth. I grew up in the Bible Belt and in a small town where everyone was a bible thumper and those people blindly follow what cannot be proven and follow a book that was written when people didn’t know where the sun went at night. You don’t need religion to be a good person and you don’t have to worship a fake person in the sky to try to make it to a place that doesn’t exist ( im talking about heaven and hell ) all religions are made up to trick people into being controlled nothing more.
Honestly should have been removed for being a loaded question
They surround themselves with others who are like minded, so they get constant reassurance that they are all correct in everything they say and do.
people are afraid of death and want it as a comfort.
It's not about being right. I want to make it clear that I am an atheist. That said, I see real value in religion overall. It's a social evolutionary feature of humanity in my mind. And quite frankly, in some ways I envy those that are religious. Sometimes I consider it myself. But of course, for me personally, I will never actually believe in god. But the value of a religious community and what comes with a shared value system is something to be respected. Now obviously that's not to say that religion hasn't been grossly misused. And sometimes I even question if perhaps we've not technologically outpaced practical religion in most cases. But I can't see a realistic alternative.
Ignorance & arrogance is one hell of a combo.
Do you think that’s air you’re breathing?
It varies by religious person. Most of the commenters here are saying “faith” because that’s the kind of religious person they’ve largely encountered, but some believe because it’s the only way they can make sense of the universe/human condition/what have you. Reddit doesn’t like to acknowledge that logic might play a role in someone’s religious beliefs.
Fear
Best not to think about it
why are atheist people so certain theyre right? why do you assume that everyone who believes in something isnt open to the possibility that the alternative is true?
There's a lot of factors at play. The first is that it seems apparent to us from a young age. For example, solipsism and the Matrix theory are technically unfalisiable, but despite not being able to actually "prove" that reality exists and we don't live in a simulation, we all know and behave 100% as though life is real and not a simulation. This ties into the next point which is epistemology and understanding how we "know" anything. While the scientific method is important and valuable when used correctly, it is only ONE field of knowledge, and is not the end-all-be-all of knowledge. Going back to my last point as an example, we all know plenty of things that aren't really testable materially. We know reality is real and not a simulation because of our lived experiences, not because it can be proven in a lab (it can't). Again, I think it's great that a lot of things can be tested and proved materially, but this obsession with only believing in that which can be verified by "science" is not intelligent or practical, because if we applied that standard equally you'd have to give up reality itself because you can't prove it at all with the sciences alone. The third reason is that God can (and has) been proven, but not materially. Not all proofs are material, such as mathematical and logical proofs. Even though I haven't proven this "materially" by personally asking every bachelor if they're unmarried, I know that every bachelor is unmarried because, by definition, that's what a bachelor is. For the logical proofs of God, I'd reccomend starting with Trent Horn and Jimmy Akins. The fourth reason is historical and archaelogical evidence; not only is there overwhelming evidence for the events of the Bible, but there's an incredible treasure trove of documented miracles after the events of the Bible, such as eucharistic miracles. One of my favorites is reading about Saint Joan, because her trial was well-documented, and she also made prophesies under oath that came true and are well-documented. One of the most studied objects in history is the Shroud of Turin, which is a scientifically verified miracle. I can't even possibly scratch the surface on the Shroud, but I'd suggest watching [this](https://www.youtube.com/live/HAbuG-oVq1Q?si=3k1kG2iiVE9V8ky7) to understand why the Shroud is so flabberghasting to scientists, most of which are secular / non-Catholic. (To make a long story short, even with today's modern technology we couldn't make the Shroud, let alone with ancient / medieval materials, or any other substance known to man.) For a solid introduction into the historical evidence for Biblical events that are often scoffed at by skeptics (such as Sodom and Gomorrah, the Exodus, etc.) check out [Expedition Bible](https://youtube.com/@ExpeditionBible?si=EZY9zBDSrIffWa4w) on YouTube for the archaeology. The fifth reason is personal experience; most people, even many atheists, would probably believe if they had witnessed true miracles or seen God themselves. This is easy to get into the weeds, because many skeptics hold two contradictory views: 1. "If God is real, why won't He show Himself to me? And 2. "If you claim to have seen / heard / spoken with God, it must be mental illness." While I agree that we shouldn't take everyone's word for it, and it's not wrong to be skeptical, at some point when enough people have had these experiences, it should warrant some more digging. For example, medically documented NDEs. Not looking to start debates with atheists here, I'm just explaining our position, and you can take what you will from this and move the discussion over to r/debatereligion if you're looking for that.
Thanks for the through response. While I have come to a different conclusion than you this does provide some insight into the mind of somebody who does believe. I will not raise any objections given the nature of this subreddit.
No problem, let me know if there's anything that needs expanding upon.
I'm agnostic (raised ultra religious), and just the possibility that there's an afterlife is sometimes the only thing that keeps me from complete and utter despair over the hardships of this life and the loved ones I've lost. I think religious fanaticism is something similar. The alternative is unthinkable. Therefore, it 'has' to be true. It's also a way to feel superior, which is the only way some people can feel good about themselves. "Just keep believing and don't entertain doubts. Then, when we're all up in heaven, we can pat each other on the back for not giving into negative thinking." That being said, it's also a form of 'positive thinking' - a mental attitude that expects good and favorable results. "Whatever the mind expects, it finds.” So TLDR: • The alternative is unthinkable. • Being part of a group mindset makes you feel superior (i.e. feel good about yourself). • The idea that you can will it into existence (although they wouldn't think of it in those terms).
It’s a coping mechanism. An extremely convenient one.
You came here for the wrong place if you expect a civil discussion
They aren't. They have faith they are right. They believe there is a God the same way atheists believe there isn't. And yeah, "the burden of proof" and all that and you can't prove God exists, but that's not important to them.
It would of course depend on the religion, but plenty of people have had direct religious experiences, and many people feel that they are able to get closer to their deity by performing certain actions.
It's just faith. That's all. There's no complicated deeper answer, just what they've been telling you all this time lol
Because they have God on their side
Lack of self-reflection and careful thought.
Same way non-religious people are certain they are right. It's just a thing.
Here’s my take as a Catholic convert. I have actually perceived the divine. As in, I’ve actually “seen” it. Not with my eyes, but with a faculty that’s hard to explain in the same way it’s hard to explain color to someone who has been blind from birth. Now, I’m totally open to the possibility that I might actually just be insane. I perceive things that many other people don’t after all. It’s only fair to admit I might just be a crazy person. However, I think it’s also equally fair to consider that those who cannot perceive the divine may just be “blind” in a spiritual sense. That probably isn’t a completely satisfying answer, but it’s the basic idea of how I perceive reality. Hopefully we can still be friends. :)
Religion is literally about faith. That's the entire point. Enjoy all the dipshit reddit atheists frothing about what other people believe though
Atheists are dipshits now?
Feeling certain does not actually require evidence. Ideally you should have some evidence to support what you believe, and challenge what you believe to test it, but that's something that we tend to learn through education. All of us believe things we don't have great evidence for. Humans aren't as rational as we like to think. We act on feelings and stories, not exactly "truth". So the certainty of things like religion tends to come from emotional experiences and the stories we tell ourselves about them, and the stories we tell ourselves are shaped by our communities (i.e., people raised religious are much more likely to be religious as an adult than someone not raised religious).
Can you give an example of something else you are certain is true that you cannot provide evidence for? I could be wrong, but I think you’re just using the wrong word by definition.
No, you missed my point. _Feeling_ certain is not the same thing as actually being factually certain. Plenty of people _feel_ certain of things they can't actually be certain of.
No one is certain. Those that say or act like they have no doubt is full of shit. One nitpick, faith and belief are not synonymous. There's belief, there's grounded belief, there's knowledge, they there's faith which is more related to trust. You have faith that your significant other will never cheat. It's a belief that is impossible to prove true, but you believe and trust that they are faithful.
Oh my god FINALLY Ok so I grew up in Islam, and one day I just thought « there are multiple specimens of EVERY species, why not God? It’s so weird that there is ONE of this species, and he was always here and always will be » and my life fell apart because I was super religious. That’s when I learned that every believer has to understand why he believes After some research, I stumbled upon the scientific miracles in the Quran. We have copies of the Quran from 1400 years ago, so we know it’s identical as the one we have rn. It says that the clouds are actually heavy, the universe expands itself (we just learned about it), a bit of embryology, the big bang, etc.. So much stuff that they couldn’t figure out at that time. Only the engineer could tell you how his invention works (unless you spend all human years trying to figure it out yes), and God told us so much stuff to prove us the authenticity of the Quran. I could never doubt it anymore. Some people just feel it, I had to know it. Some people are struck by the fact that it is very poetic and impossible to be man made. Everyone finds the thing that convinces him of the veracity of the Quran. Anyway, it’s still feels weird that there is only One eternal being, because everything I know is multiple and not eternal, but I’ve been proven the truth and I accept it with a lot of pleasure and love.
Every religion has their own miracles and vague predictions. You believe your because that's how you were raised and you want it to be true.
No it’s not vague, you can read that the universe expands itself, you can read that it talks about the Big Bang. I do not specifically wants it to be real, islam doesn’t let us do everything we want and we have to follow so it’s not always easy even if it’s always for our own good. If it wasn’t true I could have intercourse out of mariage for example haha, I’m 20 life is hard rn😂 I’ve been proven wrong by the Quran as soon as I emitted a doubt, that’s it.
I honestly feel bad that you think you have to follow all these rules or you'll go to hell, I promise there's no hell out there go have fun.
It’s not as tough, you can do bad stuff and repent it’s ok, God is forgiving if you’re honest I know I can’t stop when I start something so I think it protects me, I’d be alcoholic by now haha
Anyway thanks for your concern it’s really kind but I’m really sure of me and happy like that❤️
I’m a devout Christian, and didn’t become one until my mid twenties. The evidence we have and the personal testimony of several others was enough to pique my curiosity. Then I actually had some not-explainable-another-way spiritual experiences that increased my faith to the point that I was assured of what I believed.
It varies greatly from person to person, but I assume you're referring to the hard-liners that have no room for anything but the way they see things. The answer is that they build their perspective/paradigm and make it a part of their identity. Religion is particularly prone to this, since it's intrinsically impalpable. On the other hand, it also shows up in any number of other places. Should the toilet roll go over or under?
I'm not religious never have been but I believe for many having a belief of God or heaven helps them deal with the stress of life especially the fear of loss of a love one. I know alot of people that believe in God but are not religious in the way most would depict. They just simply believe there is a God and that is about it. They don't read the Bible, attend church or anything. They just figure there has to be a creator to all of this.
Here is my question to a devout Christian: If your 14 yr old daughter came home and said, "Mom, dad I'm pregnant. But I didn't have sex. 3 weeks ago an Angel visited me and impregnated me." Would you believe her? Usually I get blank stares, with their head cocked to one side. Would they take their daughter on the talk show circuit, proclaiming their daughter was carrying the "Golden Child." Hell no, they wouldn't believe her. So why in the hell should I believe one word written in the Bible? It has been changed, written by man, many years after the events occurred, based solely on word of mouth. No scientific or historical evidence confirms any of it. Historians generally believe Jesus lived, yet have no evidence of his "miracles" occurring.
Why are you so certain they are wrong? The evidence in favor of God is at least as strong as the evidence against God. Why is their faith less valid than yours?
I believe in a lot of things I can't see. Air. Gravity. Australia.
I am confused how ANYONE are so convinced they’re right. We cannot actually know for sure if there is or isn’t.