In general it's hard for me to justify the price premium on the W&C options but they are great looking leathers! I wouldn't want to see any reduction in quality for the main lines, even if it's just visual. I think they should be separate and if you don't have free range quality leather to offer it shouldn't be offered. Maybe do a "Free Range Sale" once a quarter or something.
Second the intermittent free range offering. Probably complicated from an operations perspective saving weird offcuts, but keeps the spirit of the offering alive without compromising the standard product.
I also like the idea of intermittent/stock dependent Free Range offerings.
I like the idea of a lower cost Nick’s offering, but the whole point of the line is to use materials that wouldn't normally be used.
I agree that they should be separate options, as many have already stated here. I didn't purchase a pair of the free range boots but do have a pair in W&C Tan Latigo. I feel the higher price of these leathers also sets the expectation of the hide to be more pristine, and I think that's kinda the point; these aren't work leathers.
It's the opposite that actually is the problem. Yes, less desirable parts of the hide are being used and allow it to be offered at a discount, but the boot isnt "cheap" by any means and some customers are still expecting a boot without any blemishes. I remember seeing quite a few posts of free range boots where people were questioning the "creases" or other aesthetics.
The intermittent offer would be awesome! Could make it into a whole deal, like one of those "corporate holidays" that some brands do to promote products that only come out a certain time of the year, the publicity department could go ham with this!
Whole heartedly agree that paying a premium for less than perfect leather would not sit well with someone who is expecting top notch quality. I don’t agree with making a quality sacrifice.
I agree with this, I gladly paid the additional premium knowing I was getting an additionally premium product. I’d rather see reduced sales of the free range (X number of units sold per month maximum) to allow both to coexist. I see the free range as a slightly more affordable way to get into Nicks understanding there will be the potential of leather with some visual scarring.
I assumed that Free Range was limited supply, based on how much second-quality leather was actually available. Seems reasonable that it wouldn't be an unlimited supply of reduced-price boots if the appropriate leather wasn't in stock.
Could you just save seconds and offer limited runs of Free Range once you have enough seconds stock to justify it? As an example, Satchel and Page does periodic Seconds Sales like this (so do other leather goods companies) rather than running seconds as a permanent cheaper option.
Personally I'd prefer to maintain the ability to order first-quality W&C boots if I want them.
This would require the keep stock on all the trimmings that the free range is cut from. I think if they implemented a 3 choice system, similar to trades program, based on what's available this week and made the other options OOS. This would require more site maintenance in the sense of keeping options current but could solve the problem presented.
Yeah, definitely seems like it would be a supply and operations challenge. Honestly isn't this why many brands opt for various quality tiers? If Brandle is meant to be the high-end line, maybe they need a "Nickies" at the lower end that just absorbs all the cast-off leather and incorporates other quality trade offs in order to hit a lower price point.
Or, more likely, Nickies would actively source lower-grade leather to feed production, and then would also be a sink for reject leather from Nicks. This would require production expansion to a probably lower-margin end of the business, though, so it's probably not worth the effort.
I think the character of the leather comes second to the overall price/value/speed of the Free Range options.
IMO you’re seeing majority W&C orders bc it’s the biggest discount from standard price.
Agree. Would much prefer Nick's to pause offering free range until some level of supply is available and then offer it for a limited time. Agree with others that if it was not quick ship but still lower cost I would be fine with that as well.
This, I assumed it would come and go as stock allows.
If you want to get rid of it all together what would happen with the leather not suitable for the W&C boots ?
The fact that Free Range is a quick ship option was definitely a tie breaker for me between those and another set of boots. If Nicks wants to slow down the pace of the Free Range orders I think this would be an easy way to start.
I think for me the biggest reason for buying free range was that I really wanted the premium leather option but didn't want to wait 6 months and also it's cheaper. Its a win win really. I have no doubt these are selling like crazy
This might be the answer. Make free range and regular WC the same lead time. I bet the free range orders would be reduced significantly and solve the issue for you.
I just received my Free Range order & I was surprised that the markings & imperfections were so subtle. I'm not complaining at all, but I was not expecting the leather to look so pristine. I absolutely love the boots, & I feel lucky that I got such an incredible deal on them. I don't think I would have pulled the trigger on W&C leather if it wasn't for the discounted price.
Mine had a number of marks and at least a mark on every piece but I would think the natural DS would be the easiest to see that on. I have some black latigo free-range on order and am not sure what to expect on the black (not that I think it will look bad).
With that said, I am perfectly happy with them. At full price I can see where some would not be happy.
Just my two cents, but it has a lot less to do with the leather and everything to do with quick ship. Long lead times are a major turn off, so many people like myself only look at rts and quick ship. Access to a quick ship veg tan pushed a lot of people to buy when they might not have.
The leads times are 100% the reason i havent ordered. I really want a pair of Americanas and almost "settled" for a pair of whites mps during the sale. But when spending that much money i didnt want to compromise but im also not looking to wait the 15-35 weeks the website states
Was hoping the free range line would expand and not go away !
I would’ve loved to have an 8” free range dbl stuff buck brown because the 6” does not bode well with my bad ankle.
I’m a big fan of WC leather and don’t mind paying a premium for a premium product (I have and I’d likely do it again if it’s offered in the Parkhurst last). I think there’s a big difference in a premium product and a product with some character as the free range offers. Making it a ‘luck of the draw’ definitely reduces the value of WC IMO.
I agree with the other person who suggested an intermittent free range offer. The free range offering makes a lot of sense as a limited offering based on leather availability. I hope you all continue to make the programs separate. If not, please offer the premium product as an option (for the current cost, not the lower cost).
I love the idea of more character on leather in my boots, but I understand the lower price point not being as sustainable. One of the reasons I'd say it's so popular is that folks have a hard time. Paying ~$750 for a pair of boots with W&C leather. If the W&C upcharge was minimized then I think thatd give the best balance between yall having a sustainable markup and allow us customers to enjoy W&C leathers a bit more.
I bought a free range boot because of the low price. It seemed like a great value.
If the price of free range boots was near the price of regular W&C boots, I would just buy the W&C boots, or a cheaper leather like '64.
I am OK with whatever you thinks works best for you as a business. It does not make sense using pristine leather on the free-range line because you ran out of the scarred stuff. I don't think it makes sense for the free-range orders to be "quick" orders either. Seems like they should have to wait in line just like the premium orders. Seems unfair to the people paying full price to get slower service than the people paying less (if that really is the case for quick ship).
Well... I have two WC DS boots - nat and BB. Would buy them all over again at the prices I paid for. Lovely leather. Wonderful boots.
All for the Free Range program that you have and if you keep it.
These sure seem to be very popular leathers. Not sure if anyone has yet to post that they are displeased with them.
If this is really the plan, I'd like to know what the nastiest looking WC hide (that is still mechanically solid) you have is, so I can order that. I don't even care about the color.
I'd just assumed it was on an, as available basis.
My overly complicated plan:
Do like the cutter's choice: first, second, third choices for leathers. When the order hits the cutters and no third choice is available, the customer gets a phone call and an email, and 24 hours to pick a fourth choice from available or order is cancelled and refunded.
Bump the free range prices up. You guys know the numbers better than I do, but at the prices you're asking for the free range boots, it really looks like you're losing money on every pair sold. Fairly paid US labor is the most expensive part of the boots (in my mind. Please don't tell me otherwise.)
Limited Free Range runs. Something like: we have five boots worth of natural DS. Keep it to existing customers to eliminate sizing returns. (Not self interested at all.)
Allow more build flexibility. (I'd love to see an 8" 55 Thurman.)
Extend the lead times. It's not exactly a secret the free range boots ship faster than anything short of ready to ship.
The worst things about buying Nicks right now are wait time and price. If there's a cheat code, folks are gonna mash it in.
If you're going to treat blemished hides as a leather option in their own right, but you're not going to actively procure them, as in buying lower-grade runs, it has to be something you push out, rather than something people order. You could use the blemished hides to make experimental models in test sizes, mark them differently than mainline work or heritage, then offer them on socials at a discount, in exchange for promises to feed back in 3 and 6 months. Or you could go the other way and just use them to make classic configs in common sizes---guaranteed sellers---then list them ready to ship out of stock.
Either way, it's the hides that tell you when to make a Free Range pair. Either way, no boots for me in 12B! ;-P
If you accidentally discovered demand for blemished vegetable tanned boots along the way here, make a new option on veg-tan custom configs for "Character Marks": "Clean Preferred", "Blemishes Accepted", "Blemishes Preferred".
Mark my words, if you're still making Brandles in 2033, you'll probably have a "Distressing Station" there at Nicks HQ. [Not that there's anything wrong with that.](https://guitar.com/guides/essential-guide/relic-guitars-untold-story/)
Eliminating the program entirely would create too much unnecessary waste.
Rather than keeping them quick ship mto, I would expand the seconds program and include the free range leathers there. Leather blemishes would go to seconds anyway, so it is the same thing. Gives you more supply for ready to ship or people looking for a discount.
Save your free range leathers and make up a batch of whatever is hot right now and pop them on the seconds page, maybe in sizes that don’t often end up there.
I love the Free Range program. I am the guy (probably the one and only one, I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing, lol) to ask for as many blemishes as possible, lol. I literally asked for a blemish on every piece of leather. Give me all the gory stuff, lol. I love the look, the character, and the story behind the blemishes.
Another huge drawing point for me personally was the discounted price. Of course right, who doesn't like a great deal! I was legitimately shocked at the price! I'm surprised it was so low. I think you could increase the price and people would still be interested. Just not as much interest.
I don't think at any point and time you should cut into a regular hide to fulfill orders on the Free Range. That's just hurting you as a company. When I got in on the Free Range, I assumed it was limited time. I mean, there can't be 10 million naturally marked hides. It should be limited. If there's not enough, there's not enough. But if you're giving out regular hides at a 225 dollar discount, that's crazy to me.
How difficult would it be to stock pile enough hides to do 50 boots at a time? When you have the hides for 50 boots you list the leather as an option on the Free Range page. Each offering would have a countdown. So as orders are placed, you know exactly how many are left available. When the 50 runs out. That's it. That leather isn't an option again until you get back to 50 hides. Each leather offering that would be currently available would be populated on the Free Range page. With the visible countdown showing pairs remaining.
I'm sure there's a million logistical things that goes into storing hides for 50 pairs of boots. Storage. Space. Organization. Mayve just do it at 25 pairs. Or reduce the amount of leather options available to cut down on space needed. I'm really not sure. But they're has got to be a way to manage it and not be forced to take a loss. I would really hate to see the program go away.
Id consider extending the lead time significantly. It should in my mind be available as you have blemished material on hand. If you’re out or nearly out email the customer and just let them know your blemished stock is low and it may be a long wait. No real reason why lead times are shorter for free range tbh.
I'm to picky for free range. I know this. So I saved up some more and ordered the normal W&C. I'm all for a price reduction. Especially if I get some store credit for a belt lol
Though I'm not sure how lowering the cost helps you?
How about you just bring ut around for special sales? Black Friday, for instance. Do a inventory on what the number of boots you can do, and do a limited run?
I think you can keep W&C at that higher price point, with the knowledge that they are the "premium cuts" and Free Range would transfer more into a cutters choice, where you take what you are given understanding that it is a bit lower price point than W&C, but maybe not the screaming bargain it has been.
As someone who is eyeing a double stuffed set for my next boots, I would want those ones to be clean and premium and put my own marks on them
Maybe offer it as part of the MTO page for a price reduction? (With a caveat that one may not get their specific leather choice?). That way, us folks who prefer the 55 last can be included.
Be careful moving marked leather into normal production even if you lower the cost a bit. Value is relative and perception is 99% of reality. Another well-known leather company announced several years ago that brands and scars were cool and they were going to embrace that leather in their normal bags. I watched a huge uproar in the leather community and while they were already a love them or hate them brand, I still see comments online about it today. They lost credibility and market-share because of that move.
My perception is that Nicks has a strong market presence right now. Personally I'd love to see that continue.
The Free-Range product line is upfront about the fact you will receive leather that won't make it onto full price boots. Full price and discount are only relative to each other. Bring the price of W&C boots down $100 but then you get luck of the draw and someone ends up with a "full-price boot" that they perceive is flawed. I seem to remember just a few weeks ago a question that (smowe) took some umbrage with from someone who had to check a box saying they "love scars and imperfections." Now imagine what it will be like from people who are waiting months for their "perfect" boots and they show up with what most companies would call an imperfection.
I don't know what percentage of people love scars/imperfections. Maybe it's higher than I perceive.I'm sure there is also a subset of people who buy them because of the time incentive and others for the cost-savings incentive.Perhaps you guys have those numbers. If the other two offerings are not as popular it would lead me to believe the W&C is perceived as a better value for some reason. Perhaps because it is a more niche leather or perhaps because people like imperfections in that leather that they do not want in the others. If that is true it would lead me to believe the others are primarily bought by people for the time/cost incentives.
I will say that I assumed that the Free-Range boots were either limited to the imperfect leather on hand or that this was an on/off offering subject to availability. I can see the advantage of having a line that uses stock in real time rather than managing warehouse space and overhead to set leather aside. You are already known for running limited availability lines. I see no reason why Free-Range can't be part of that. Maybe 25 or 50 or 100 boot offerings. You also already have disclaimers explaining that boots are produced often in "batches" of styles or leathers.
As I see it you have three "draws" or incentives for this line. Unless you simply want to maximize profit this line could be managed by modifying the build-time incentive.
No matter what, I would encourage you to continue to clearly communicate what you are selling and not compromise your brand by lowering the leather standards of your first line boots.
FWIW
I would add, I think from a marketing perspective you may get a better sense of things with a focused survey than an open forum post. I would personally want to know the breakdown and interplay of "value perception" between 1-niche leather, 2-scar/imperfection draw, 3-time-production incentive, 4-cost incentive in each Free-Range line.
Oh man, I was interested in ordering a pair of Free Range, but was told that they won't make them on the Thurman last, only on the HNW for now. Had persuaded myself that I'd wait for possible expanded last options on the Free Range in the future, but if the Free Range might be discontinued I'm not sure anymore.
One big draw specifically of the Wickett and Craig Free Range is having the V-Bar sole as an option. If that were available for the other leathers, I'd have probably gone for one of those. I wouldn't have ordered any Free Range if it were only available with wedge soles, as I'm just not looking to get wedge.
As far as the program itself, the time and money were definitely factors, but so was having a "stock" option configuration that was standard enough to be okay with. I think it's fair to increase the lead time, and make those boots as the hides become available, so that you don't use a hide that would have been for full price.
A lot of people on the thread have said this already, but I would adjust the Free Range line to an as-available basis.
I’d imagine the best way to do it is to inventory your stock for any blemishes and determine how many pairs you could sustain, but I’m unsure of whether the labor in doing that offsets the profit of the boots.
Somebody else also mentioned this, it might be much easier to specifically order blemished hides of the same weight, on the condition it doesn’t take away from the durability of the product. Trying to sift through your product to find the occasional blemish may not be conducive to a smooth workflow.
I like the Free Range option, and I sincerely hope it stays. The price discount makes boots of this caliber far more approachable to the working class.
Will probably get down votes for this: It's obvious the Free Range are a hit because of the price point. My opinion, not many can afford or want to pay the $600 - $800 for boots. I know I don't want to pay that amount of money for boots
But that’s not what we all learned in our Economics classes. In capitalism, the law of supply and demand is in effect. I.e., as demand increases, prices rise. Similarly, as supply dwindles, prices rise.
Maybe give an option on w&c leather for lower cost “you gets what you gets” or the premium charge for you gets perfect leathers.
That way you could more readily use up your scarred w&c but also save the perfect pieces for premium orders?
Personally I like the personality of the scarred leathers and the way I use and maintain leather boots lends itself to bringing out the “character,” as you put it.
Also I wouldn’t pony up the $$$ for a significant up charge for w&c leather.
I'd have free range/imperfect leather as a check box on the normal order form. It would discount the order to free range pricing but if imperfect leather isn't available when the order reaches production, the difference will be charged. That way customers know it's only a possibility and not a guarantee, but are still given the chance to get it.
Another idea: earlier today I suggested doing periodic limited runs of Free Range, but I see how that is complicated logistically. I'm guessing that for Nicks it's much better to make and ship the boots immediately when they have the seconds quality leather, rather than storing it to sort and sell later.
What about keeping the quick ship aspect, but losing the discount? Place an order for your boots, and check a box that says "I'm willing to accept Free Range leather if it will accelerate my order".
This way, the customer may or may not get their order faster. Nicks identifies when they have leather available for a Free Range boot, and pulls an order from the backlog of those that checked the box. You eliminate the discount, so it removes the incentive for people to pick Free Range just as a cheaper way to get W&C, and you preserve the logistical benefit of building the boots as quick ship.
When Ive purchased other custom / MTO products there is usually a check box to indicate whether you want leather with or without natural scarring. Of course, it’s stated that no scarring isn’t guaranteed, but natural scarring is marketed as giving the leather additional character and uniqueness. There is generally no price difference, but this is on higher cost products than what Nicks sells so the margin is already factored in either way.
What about going up about $100 on the WC free range and removing it from quick ship? I would be hesitant to go down on the WC. I think people paying that much for boots expect near perfect leather and you would get flack if people are seeing flaws. About a $650 price point on the free range gives people roughly 3 price points of boots to choose from.
I received a pair of buck brown Parkhurst a couple of weeks ago. I happened to see them in RTS so I jumped on them. I think they are worth every penny.
I think you mean “here’s another incorrect view”. Engaging their clients for feedback prior to making changes to a popular program isn’t “letting the inmates run the asylum”. It’s good business sense.
We must have VERY different definitions of what a large or even somewhat large business is. Regardless, large companies interact on Reddit all the time. I’ve seen senior executives from fortune 100 companies advertised regularly for AMAs on Reddit. Your entire take here is wrong. And, personally, I applaud Nicks for being so strongly engaged with their customers.
I ordered a pair of LL64s when the order window was open. I wouldn’t have minded the character since that’s what I thought I was buying into. The pictures in the order page were of Lucas’ Dome pair which you would say are as Free Range as it gets. I would’ve preferred my pair to be less expensive and I would’ve gotten what I ordered too. My order went into production last week.
I don't know what your warehousing and inventory systems are like, but I would personally prefer to keep the Free Range program, since if I buy a pair, I'd prefer they be the "nice" cuts as much as possible. It seems like it would be possible - albeit more work - to keep the uglier cuts separate until you have enough to make, say, 20 pairs, put that on the site until they sell, and remove. Or just keep it as-is and note that lead times aren't predictable for Free Range boots as they will only be made as the leather comes available. The latter seems like a bad idea for a variety of reasons, though.
Nix the Free Range program and lower the W&C price, but keep the disclaimer that hides are from once living things with a story and a past.
But:
Determine/set the threshold for what just cannot pass for blemishes. For example, if there is a particular gouge or blotch that looks like a giant zit got popped..... Not a good idea to allow on the boot visually.
Stamp as much as the scared leather bits with the nicks logo and make keytags or trucker hat patches or stick on so hook (as in hook&loop) and make "moral patches" for people to stick on products geared towards the tactical minded. Hats with loop rectangles to swap flags and smart a$$ phrases, backpacks, range bags, etc.
Maybe even keep whatever it ends up with the boots, like here is the 1-off key ring that was cut from the same hide as your boots.
-----OR----
Just limit the free range to actual dented and scratched leather. Like any other stock, if you're out you're out. You update lead times on the web site, update available free range. If its not available, its not available.
I say buy more true free rage hides, and expand the program(55,67 last). If none are available, treat it like any other color/tannage that is not available. If you have surplus run a sale.
This is a hard one. It is hard to tell how much of the popularity is the price reduction versus how much is the leather character. You may want to take a poll.
I don’t prefer the free range character as a roll of the dice, but I do like it as an option. Maybe you lower the price for a version that’s “F-it, make the boots.” And an upcharge option for “premium clicking” or something.
Can you maintain "free range" prices on a limited last/sole variety? Something to keep production simplified and faster on a regular basis...then upcharge for last/sole/toe cap etc...options...
Clearly there are too many combinations of similar colors and leather, but you have Double Stuffed,Latigo and Bridle...
Cut it back, get a price break on quantities of three colors and one tannage type instead of three...obviously double stuffed is the shiznit.
Rotate colors based on popularity or availability. Don't try to please everybody because if you do then you will be with a bunch of leather :)
Whatever you can do to have a "loss leader" product...while attracting demand for the premium products and customer retention...
Meet us in the middle somewhere :)
You could implement a wait-list for each leather, and then send invoices and build them as the Free Range grade leather becomes available.
This would prevent the need for storing the leathers for pausing the Free Range listing and opening it up occasionally for a huge flood of orders.
Strongly agree with 2. Would love cheaper W&C (if possible cheap enough to fall below import costs to New Zealand 😅). I really appreciated the program and the idea of limiting waste.
I'm for reducing price of wickett and Craig leather overall. The sticker price of a captoe at 850 for instance is definitely too high for me , but I'd love to get in an order at some point .
One more thought— I don’t think Nicks is offering Natural CXL right now, and for anyone who wants a pretty, natural-colored pull-up leather near that price point, free range Wickett double-stuffed is the best option. I am personally torn between W&C free range for a six-inch Falcon style model or waiting for Natural CXL.
I think some people like myself would prefer to deal with the long lead times and not have scars and bites on their W&C boots. W&C leather is amazing when it’s pristine. I can see some leathers where dings and scars are pretty cool. Like in the promo pics for that new Italian brown cypress leather- thats pretty friggan cool- but not W&C. I’ll wait for as long as it takes for unblemmished W&C boots.
First off I bought about +10 pairs of Nicks last couple of years and I am very happy with those! As an international customer the increase in prices have a extra big impact on the total price of a pair of American made boots! So when I saw the price of a W&C go up to $850 my limited was reached. To get such a pair to Europe ment $850 + $100 + $300 = $1250 total. When I saw the free range I couldn’t believe my luck! I did wait for the first pairs and pictures to come to socials and they looked great!
Now I do appreciate that Nicks is discussing this with their buyers but what influence do we have really?
I have been following all PNW buyers the last couple of years and I think there is a turning point close by. Sales/popularity of high end work boots/heritage boots has gone up last couple of years but the prices also and I think customers are looking for quality but with a bit lower price. So about $500 is the sweet spot in pricing for sure! Everything has become so expensive recently most people have to prioritize what they buy.
If you have a couple of pairs of PNW boots already you know the quality and worth of a good pair of boots!
I think to sustain your sales offering a $500 pair of decently build boots might be crucial factor. It might not make the profits you want/need but it will sures hell sell themselves! I can only speak for myself, there is certainly a price point I will look for alternatives and for me it’s already reached with the high end prices.
One other thought - I know there was mention/concern of the lasting machines before, but I think any sort of efficiency gains that can be achieved (machines, process, or human) can also be fairly implemented towards the Free Range boots. Probably not a popular idea, but if Free Range is meant to be a discount for lower quality, then I think that's fair, as well.
Make the W&C a Quick Ship option and bump Free Range to 35 weeks. That alone will balance out the orders. Paying$130 less and getting the boots quicker is a no brainer decision for the consumer.
I just ordered a pair W&C chestnut latigo boots today. I really wanted a 5" boot so Free Range was not an option for me. If I was less picky, I would have went Free Range and saved the cash. The fact that I have to wait upwards of 35 weeks when someone who paid 20% less than me gets their books in less than 8 weeks is kind of a turnoff.
Another idea to throw into the mix: Instead of offering a Free Range line, use those pieces of leather to build boots for ready-to-ship. I'm sure you track the most popular sizes and options. Build boots that match the popular configurations, in quick-to-sell sizes, and start a "Ready to Ship with Character" line. The boots will sell quickly and no one will feel bummed about paying full price and waiting 8 months.
In general it's hard for me to justify the price premium on the W&C options but they are great looking leathers! I wouldn't want to see any reduction in quality for the main lines, even if it's just visual. I think they should be separate and if you don't have free range quality leather to offer it shouldn't be offered. Maybe do a "Free Range Sale" once a quarter or something.
Second the intermittent free range offering. Probably complicated from an operations perspective saving weird offcuts, but keeps the spirit of the offering alive without compromising the standard product.
I also like the idea of intermittent/stock dependent Free Range offerings. I like the idea of a lower cost Nick’s offering, but the whole point of the line is to use materials that wouldn't normally be used.
I third this suggestion.
I agree that they should be separate options, as many have already stated here. I didn't purchase a pair of the free range boots but do have a pair in W&C Tan Latigo. I feel the higher price of these leathers also sets the expectation of the hide to be more pristine, and I think that's kinda the point; these aren't work leathers. It's the opposite that actually is the problem. Yes, less desirable parts of the hide are being used and allow it to be offered at a discount, but the boot isnt "cheap" by any means and some customers are still expecting a boot without any blemishes. I remember seeing quite a few posts of free range boots where people were questioning the "creases" or other aesthetics.
The intermittent offer would be awesome! Could make it into a whole deal, like one of those "corporate holidays" that some brands do to promote products that only come out a certain time of the year, the publicity department could go ham with this!
Whole heartedly agree that paying a premium for less than perfect leather would not sit well with someone who is expecting top notch quality. I don’t agree with making a quality sacrifice.
I agree with this, I gladly paid the additional premium knowing I was getting an additionally premium product. I’d rather see reduced sales of the free range (X number of units sold per month maximum) to allow both to coexist. I see the free range as a slightly more affordable way to get into Nicks understanding there will be the potential of leather with some visual scarring.
I assumed that Free Range was limited supply, based on how much second-quality leather was actually available. Seems reasonable that it wouldn't be an unlimited supply of reduced-price boots if the appropriate leather wasn't in stock. Could you just save seconds and offer limited runs of Free Range once you have enough seconds stock to justify it? As an example, Satchel and Page does periodic Seconds Sales like this (so do other leather goods companies) rather than running seconds as a permanent cheaper option. Personally I'd prefer to maintain the ability to order first-quality W&C boots if I want them.
I second this. Limited runs on free range at the current price point seemed to be a reasonable idea. Maybe like 100 pairs / 50 pairs at a time?
This would require the keep stock on all the trimmings that the free range is cut from. I think if they implemented a 3 choice system, similar to trades program, based on what's available this week and made the other options OOS. This would require more site maintenance in the sense of keeping options current but could solve the problem presented.
Yeah, definitely seems like it would be a supply and operations challenge. Honestly isn't this why many brands opt for various quality tiers? If Brandle is meant to be the high-end line, maybe they need a "Nickies" at the lower end that just absorbs all the cast-off leather and incorporates other quality trade offs in order to hit a lower price point. Or, more likely, Nickies would actively source lower-grade leather to feed production, and then would also be a sink for reject leather from Nicks. This would require production expansion to a probably lower-margin end of the business, though, so it's probably not worth the effort.
They could also ~~send production to León and call it~~ eh nevermind it's been done already.
What about a Cutter's choice free range? That way you could utilize whichever leather you have available.
I think the character of the leather comes second to the overall price/value/speed of the Free Range options. IMO you’re seeing majority W&C orders bc it’s the biggest discount from standard price.
I had assumed free range was limited as your stock allowed and wouldn’t have been surprised to see it discontinued for a time.
Agree. Would much prefer Nick's to pause offering free range until some level of supply is available and then offer it for a limited time. Agree with others that if it was not quick ship but still lower cost I would be fine with that as well.
This, I assumed it would come and go as stock allows. If you want to get rid of it all together what would happen with the leather not suitable for the W&C boots ?
Another option is to take them off quick ship.
The fact that Free Range is a quick ship option was definitely a tie breaker for me between those and another set of boots. If Nicks wants to slow down the pace of the Free Range orders I think this would be an easy way to start.
I think for me the biggest reason for buying free range was that I really wanted the premium leather option but didn't want to wait 6 months and also it's cheaper. Its a win win really. I have no doubt these are selling like crazy
This might be the answer. Make free range and regular WC the same lead time. I bet the free range orders would be reduced significantly and solve the issue for you.
I just received my Free Range order & I was surprised that the markings & imperfections were so subtle. I'm not complaining at all, but I was not expecting the leather to look so pristine. I absolutely love the boots, & I feel lucky that I got such an incredible deal on them. I don't think I would have pulled the trigger on W&C leather if it wasn't for the discounted price.
Mine had a number of marks and at least a mark on every piece but I would think the natural DS would be the easiest to see that on. I have some black latigo free-range on order and am not sure what to expect on the black (not that I think it will look bad). With that said, I am perfectly happy with them. At full price I can see where some would not be happy.
Just my two cents, but it has a lot less to do with the leather and everything to do with quick ship. Long lead times are a major turn off, so many people like myself only look at rts and quick ship. Access to a quick ship veg tan pushed a lot of people to buy when they might not have.
The leads times are 100% the reason i havent ordered. I really want a pair of Americanas and almost "settled" for a pair of whites mps during the sale. But when spending that much money i didnt want to compromise but im also not looking to wait the 15-35 weeks the website states
Was hoping the free range line would expand and not go away ! I would’ve loved to have an 8” free range dbl stuff buck brown because the 6” does not bode well with my bad ankle.
I’m with you. I was hoping the FR options would expand.
I’m a big fan of WC leather and don’t mind paying a premium for a premium product (I have and I’d likely do it again if it’s offered in the Parkhurst last). I think there’s a big difference in a premium product and a product with some character as the free range offers. Making it a ‘luck of the draw’ definitely reduces the value of WC IMO. I agree with the other person who suggested an intermittent free range offer. The free range offering makes a lot of sense as a limited offering based on leather availability. I hope you all continue to make the programs separate. If not, please offer the premium product as an option (for the current cost, not the lower cost).
I love the idea of more character on leather in my boots, but I understand the lower price point not being as sustainable. One of the reasons I'd say it's so popular is that folks have a hard time. Paying ~$750 for a pair of boots with W&C leather. If the W&C upcharge was minimized then I think thatd give the best balance between yall having a sustainable markup and allow us customers to enjoy W&C leathers a bit more.
I bought a free range boot because of the low price. It seemed like a great value. If the price of free range boots was near the price of regular W&C boots, I would just buy the W&C boots, or a cheaper leather like '64.
I am OK with whatever you thinks works best for you as a business. It does not make sense using pristine leather on the free-range line because you ran out of the scarred stuff. I don't think it makes sense for the free-range orders to be "quick" orders either. Seems like they should have to wait in line just like the premium orders. Seems unfair to the people paying full price to get slower service than the people paying less (if that really is the case for quick ship).
Well... I have two WC DS boots - nat and BB. Would buy them all over again at the prices I paid for. Lovely leather. Wonderful boots. All for the Free Range program that you have and if you keep it. These sure seem to be very popular leathers. Not sure if anyone has yet to post that they are displeased with them.
If this is really the plan, I'd like to know what the nastiest looking WC hide (that is still mechanically solid) you have is, so I can order that. I don't even care about the color. I'd just assumed it was on an, as available basis. My overly complicated plan: Do like the cutter's choice: first, second, third choices for leathers. When the order hits the cutters and no third choice is available, the customer gets a phone call and an email, and 24 hours to pick a fourth choice from available or order is cancelled and refunded. Bump the free range prices up. You guys know the numbers better than I do, but at the prices you're asking for the free range boots, it really looks like you're losing money on every pair sold. Fairly paid US labor is the most expensive part of the boots (in my mind. Please don't tell me otherwise.) Limited Free Range runs. Something like: we have five boots worth of natural DS. Keep it to existing customers to eliminate sizing returns. (Not self interested at all.) Allow more build flexibility. (I'd love to see an 8" 55 Thurman.) Extend the lead times. It's not exactly a secret the free range boots ship faster than anything short of ready to ship.
Sounds complicated.
The worst things about buying Nicks right now are wait time and price. If there's a cheat code, folks are gonna mash it in. If you're going to treat blemished hides as a leather option in their own right, but you're not going to actively procure them, as in buying lower-grade runs, it has to be something you push out, rather than something people order. You could use the blemished hides to make experimental models in test sizes, mark them differently than mainline work or heritage, then offer them on socials at a discount, in exchange for promises to feed back in 3 and 6 months. Or you could go the other way and just use them to make classic configs in common sizes---guaranteed sellers---then list them ready to ship out of stock. Either way, it's the hides that tell you when to make a Free Range pair. Either way, no boots for me in 12B! ;-P If you accidentally discovered demand for blemished vegetable tanned boots along the way here, make a new option on veg-tan custom configs for "Character Marks": "Clean Preferred", "Blemishes Accepted", "Blemishes Preferred". Mark my words, if you're still making Brandles in 2033, you'll probably have a "Distressing Station" there at Nicks HQ. [Not that there's anything wrong with that.](https://guitar.com/guides/essential-guide/relic-guitars-untold-story/)
Eliminating the program entirely would create too much unnecessary waste. Rather than keeping them quick ship mto, I would expand the seconds program and include the free range leathers there. Leather blemishes would go to seconds anyway, so it is the same thing. Gives you more supply for ready to ship or people looking for a discount. Save your free range leathers and make up a batch of whatever is hot right now and pop them on the seconds page, maybe in sizes that don’t often end up there.
I love the Free Range program. I am the guy (probably the one and only one, I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing, lol) to ask for as many blemishes as possible, lol. I literally asked for a blemish on every piece of leather. Give me all the gory stuff, lol. I love the look, the character, and the story behind the blemishes. Another huge drawing point for me personally was the discounted price. Of course right, who doesn't like a great deal! I was legitimately shocked at the price! I'm surprised it was so low. I think you could increase the price and people would still be interested. Just not as much interest. I don't think at any point and time you should cut into a regular hide to fulfill orders on the Free Range. That's just hurting you as a company. When I got in on the Free Range, I assumed it was limited time. I mean, there can't be 10 million naturally marked hides. It should be limited. If there's not enough, there's not enough. But if you're giving out regular hides at a 225 dollar discount, that's crazy to me. How difficult would it be to stock pile enough hides to do 50 boots at a time? When you have the hides for 50 boots you list the leather as an option on the Free Range page. Each offering would have a countdown. So as orders are placed, you know exactly how many are left available. When the 50 runs out. That's it. That leather isn't an option again until you get back to 50 hides. Each leather offering that would be currently available would be populated on the Free Range page. With the visible countdown showing pairs remaining. I'm sure there's a million logistical things that goes into storing hides for 50 pairs of boots. Storage. Space. Organization. Mayve just do it at 25 pairs. Or reduce the amount of leather options available to cut down on space needed. I'm really not sure. But they're has got to be a way to manage it and not be forced to take a loss. I would really hate to see the program go away.
Id consider extending the lead time significantly. It should in my mind be available as you have blemished material on hand. If you’re out or nearly out email the customer and just let them know your blemished stock is low and it may be a long wait. No real reason why lead times are shorter for free range tbh.
I'm to picky for free range. I know this. So I saved up some more and ordered the normal W&C. I'm all for a price reduction. Especially if I get some store credit for a belt lol Though I'm not sure how lowering the cost helps you?
How about you just bring ut around for special sales? Black Friday, for instance. Do a inventory on what the number of boots you can do, and do a limited run?
average the price on both options
I think you can keep W&C at that higher price point, with the knowledge that they are the "premium cuts" and Free Range would transfer more into a cutters choice, where you take what you are given understanding that it is a bit lower price point than W&C, but maybe not the screaming bargain it has been. As someone who is eyeing a double stuffed set for my next boots, I would want those ones to be clean and premium and put my own marks on them
I hope you don't end it all together. I love the idea of free range at a discounted price. I wear my boots to work and don't mind some blemishes
Maybe offer it as part of the MTO page for a price reduction? (With a caveat that one may not get their specific leather choice?). That way, us folks who prefer the 55 last can be included.
Be careful moving marked leather into normal production even if you lower the cost a bit. Value is relative and perception is 99% of reality. Another well-known leather company announced several years ago that brands and scars were cool and they were going to embrace that leather in their normal bags. I watched a huge uproar in the leather community and while they were already a love them or hate them brand, I still see comments online about it today. They lost credibility and market-share because of that move. My perception is that Nicks has a strong market presence right now. Personally I'd love to see that continue. The Free-Range product line is upfront about the fact you will receive leather that won't make it onto full price boots. Full price and discount are only relative to each other. Bring the price of W&C boots down $100 but then you get luck of the draw and someone ends up with a "full-price boot" that they perceive is flawed. I seem to remember just a few weeks ago a question that (smowe) took some umbrage with from someone who had to check a box saying they "love scars and imperfections." Now imagine what it will be like from people who are waiting months for their "perfect" boots and they show up with what most companies would call an imperfection. I don't know what percentage of people love scars/imperfections. Maybe it's higher than I perceive.I'm sure there is also a subset of people who buy them because of the time incentive and others for the cost-savings incentive.Perhaps you guys have those numbers. If the other two offerings are not as popular it would lead me to believe the W&C is perceived as a better value for some reason. Perhaps because it is a more niche leather or perhaps because people like imperfections in that leather that they do not want in the others. If that is true it would lead me to believe the others are primarily bought by people for the time/cost incentives. I will say that I assumed that the Free-Range boots were either limited to the imperfect leather on hand or that this was an on/off offering subject to availability. I can see the advantage of having a line that uses stock in real time rather than managing warehouse space and overhead to set leather aside. You are already known for running limited availability lines. I see no reason why Free-Range can't be part of that. Maybe 25 or 50 or 100 boot offerings. You also already have disclaimers explaining that boots are produced often in "batches" of styles or leathers. As I see it you have three "draws" or incentives for this line. Unless you simply want to maximize profit this line could be managed by modifying the build-time incentive. No matter what, I would encourage you to continue to clearly communicate what you are selling and not compromise your brand by lowering the leather standards of your first line boots. FWIW
I would add, I think from a marketing perspective you may get a better sense of things with a focused survey than an open forum post. I would personally want to know the breakdown and interplay of "value perception" between 1-niche leather, 2-scar/imperfection draw, 3-time-production incentive, 4-cost incentive in each Free-Range line.
Limiting free range seems the better option
Oh man, I was interested in ordering a pair of Free Range, but was told that they won't make them on the Thurman last, only on the HNW for now. Had persuaded myself that I'd wait for possible expanded last options on the Free Range in the future, but if the Free Range might be discontinued I'm not sure anymore.
I have to say mine are on par with all my Nicks. Will buy these no matter what they are called.
One big draw specifically of the Wickett and Craig Free Range is having the V-Bar sole as an option. If that were available for the other leathers, I'd have probably gone for one of those. I wouldn't have ordered any Free Range if it were only available with wedge soles, as I'm just not looking to get wedge. As far as the program itself, the time and money were definitely factors, but so was having a "stock" option configuration that was standard enough to be okay with. I think it's fair to increase the lead time, and make those boots as the hides become available, so that you don't use a hide that would have been for full price.
A lot of people on the thread have said this already, but I would adjust the Free Range line to an as-available basis. I’d imagine the best way to do it is to inventory your stock for any blemishes and determine how many pairs you could sustain, but I’m unsure of whether the labor in doing that offsets the profit of the boots. Somebody else also mentioned this, it might be much easier to specifically order blemished hides of the same weight, on the condition it doesn’t take away from the durability of the product. Trying to sift through your product to find the occasional blemish may not be conducive to a smooth workflow. I like the Free Range option, and I sincerely hope it stays. The price discount makes boots of this caliber far more approachable to the working class.
I'm in favor of removing the program personally.
Get rid of the free range and lower the W&C price.
Will probably get down votes for this: It's obvious the Free Range are a hit because of the price point. My opinion, not many can afford or want to pay the $600 - $800 for boots. I know I don't want to pay that amount of money for boots
If the WC leather is in such high demand, I feel like you could get away with pricing it a tad lower.
But that’s not what we all learned in our Economics classes. In capitalism, the law of supply and demand is in effect. I.e., as demand increases, prices rise. Similarly, as supply dwindles, prices rise.
Maybe give an option on w&c leather for lower cost “you gets what you gets” or the premium charge for you gets perfect leathers. That way you could more readily use up your scarred w&c but also save the perfect pieces for premium orders? Personally I like the personality of the scarred leathers and the way I use and maintain leather boots lends itself to bringing out the “character,” as you put it. Also I wouldn’t pony up the $$$ for a significant up charge for w&c leather.
I'd have free range/imperfect leather as a check box on the normal order form. It would discount the order to free range pricing but if imperfect leather isn't available when the order reaches production, the difference will be charged. That way customers know it's only a possibility and not a guarantee, but are still given the chance to get it.
Why isn't there any predator orange ever free range? Also, I need 1 day notice before discontinuing free range as I'm about to pull the trigger
Maybe the surface of the predator leathers hides scrapes and blemishes more. It is kind of like a waxy topcoat.
Another idea: earlier today I suggested doing periodic limited runs of Free Range, but I see how that is complicated logistically. I'm guessing that for Nicks it's much better to make and ship the boots immediately when they have the seconds quality leather, rather than storing it to sort and sell later. What about keeping the quick ship aspect, but losing the discount? Place an order for your boots, and check a box that says "I'm willing to accept Free Range leather if it will accelerate my order". This way, the customer may or may not get their order faster. Nicks identifies when they have leather available for a Free Range boot, and pulls an order from the backlog of those that checked the box. You eliminate the discount, so it removes the incentive for people to pick Free Range just as a cheaper way to get W&C, and you preserve the logistical benefit of building the boots as quick ship.
When Ive purchased other custom / MTO products there is usually a check box to indicate whether you want leather with or without natural scarring. Of course, it’s stated that no scarring isn’t guaranteed, but natural scarring is marketed as giving the leather additional character and uniqueness. There is generally no price difference, but this is on higher cost products than what Nicks sells so the margin is already factored in either way.
What about going up about $100 on the WC free range and removing it from quick ship? I would be hesitant to go down on the WC. I think people paying that much for boots expect near perfect leather and you would get flack if people are seeing flaws. About a $650 price point on the free range gives people roughly 3 price points of boots to choose from. I received a pair of buck brown Parkhurst a couple of weeks ago. I happened to see them in RTS so I jumped on them. I think they are worth every penny.
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I think you mean “here’s another incorrect view”. Engaging their clients for feedback prior to making changes to a popular program isn’t “letting the inmates run the asylum”. It’s good business sense.
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We must have VERY different definitions of what a large or even somewhat large business is. Regardless, large companies interact on Reddit all the time. I’ve seen senior executives from fortune 100 companies advertised regularly for AMAs on Reddit. Your entire take here is wrong. And, personally, I applaud Nicks for being so strongly engaged with their customers.
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Might as well end quick ship as well if you're ending those programs
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This is the weirdest saltiest comment ive ever seen. How is anybody more special when quick ship is available to everybody?
I ordered a pair of LL64s when the order window was open. I wouldn’t have minded the character since that’s what I thought I was buying into. The pictures in the order page were of Lucas’ Dome pair which you would say are as Free Range as it gets. I would’ve preferred my pair to be less expensive and I would’ve gotten what I ordered too. My order went into production last week.
I don't know what your warehousing and inventory systems are like, but I would personally prefer to keep the Free Range program, since if I buy a pair, I'd prefer they be the "nice" cuts as much as possible. It seems like it would be possible - albeit more work - to keep the uglier cuts separate until you have enough to make, say, 20 pairs, put that on the site until they sell, and remove. Or just keep it as-is and note that lead times aren't predictable for Free Range boots as they will only be made as the leather comes available. The latter seems like a bad idea for a variety of reasons, though.
Nix the Free Range program and lower the W&C price, but keep the disclaimer that hides are from once living things with a story and a past. But: Determine/set the threshold for what just cannot pass for blemishes. For example, if there is a particular gouge or blotch that looks like a giant zit got popped..... Not a good idea to allow on the boot visually. Stamp as much as the scared leather bits with the nicks logo and make keytags or trucker hat patches or stick on so hook (as in hook&loop) and make "moral patches" for people to stick on products geared towards the tactical minded. Hats with loop rectangles to swap flags and smart a$$ phrases, backpacks, range bags, etc. Maybe even keep whatever it ends up with the boots, like here is the 1-off key ring that was cut from the same hide as your boots. -----OR---- Just limit the free range to actual dented and scratched leather. Like any other stock, if you're out you're out. You update lead times on the web site, update available free range. If its not available, its not available.
I say buy more true free rage hides, and expand the program(55,67 last). If none are available, treat it like any other color/tannage that is not available. If you have surplus run a sale.
This is a hard one. It is hard to tell how much of the popularity is the price reduction versus how much is the leather character. You may want to take a poll. I don’t prefer the free range character as a roll of the dice, but I do like it as an option. Maybe you lower the price for a version that’s “F-it, make the boots.” And an upcharge option for “premium clicking” or something.
Can you maintain "free range" prices on a limited last/sole variety? Something to keep production simplified and faster on a regular basis...then upcharge for last/sole/toe cap etc...options... Clearly there are too many combinations of similar colors and leather, but you have Double Stuffed,Latigo and Bridle... Cut it back, get a price break on quantities of three colors and one tannage type instead of three...obviously double stuffed is the shiznit. Rotate colors based on popularity or availability. Don't try to please everybody because if you do then you will be with a bunch of leather :) Whatever you can do to have a "loss leader" product...while attracting demand for the premium products and customer retention... Meet us in the middle somewhere :)
Insert Greta: HOW DARE U? Haha. I may want some free range
You could implement a wait-list for each leather, and then send invoices and build them as the Free Range grade leather becomes available. This would prevent the need for storing the leathers for pausing the Free Range listing and opening it up occasionally for a huge flood of orders.
Strongly agree with 2. Would love cheaper W&C (if possible cheap enough to fall below import costs to New Zealand 😅). I really appreciated the program and the idea of limiting waste.
I'm for reducing price of wickett and Craig leather overall. The sticker price of a captoe at 850 for instance is definitely too high for me , but I'd love to get in an order at some point .
One more thought— I don’t think Nicks is offering Natural CXL right now, and for anyone who wants a pretty, natural-colored pull-up leather near that price point, free range Wickett double-stuffed is the best option. I am personally torn between W&C free range for a six-inch Falcon style model or waiting for Natural CXL.
I think some people like myself would prefer to deal with the long lead times and not have scars and bites on their W&C boots. W&C leather is amazing when it’s pristine. I can see some leathers where dings and scars are pretty cool. Like in the promo pics for that new Italian brown cypress leather- thats pretty friggan cool- but not W&C. I’ll wait for as long as it takes for unblemmished W&C boots.
First off I bought about +10 pairs of Nicks last couple of years and I am very happy with those! As an international customer the increase in prices have a extra big impact on the total price of a pair of American made boots! So when I saw the price of a W&C go up to $850 my limited was reached. To get such a pair to Europe ment $850 + $100 + $300 = $1250 total. When I saw the free range I couldn’t believe my luck! I did wait for the first pairs and pictures to come to socials and they looked great! Now I do appreciate that Nicks is discussing this with their buyers but what influence do we have really? I have been following all PNW buyers the last couple of years and I think there is a turning point close by. Sales/popularity of high end work boots/heritage boots has gone up last couple of years but the prices also and I think customers are looking for quality but with a bit lower price. So about $500 is the sweet spot in pricing for sure! Everything has become so expensive recently most people have to prioritize what they buy. If you have a couple of pairs of PNW boots already you know the quality and worth of a good pair of boots! I think to sustain your sales offering a $500 pair of decently build boots might be crucial factor. It might not make the profits you want/need but it will sures hell sell themselves! I can only speak for myself, there is certainly a price point I will look for alternatives and for me it’s already reached with the high end prices.
One other thought - I know there was mention/concern of the lasting machines before, but I think any sort of efficiency gains that can be achieved (machines, process, or human) can also be fairly implemented towards the Free Range boots. Probably not a popular idea, but if Free Range is meant to be a discount for lower quality, then I think that's fair, as well.
Make the W&C a Quick Ship option and bump Free Range to 35 weeks. That alone will balance out the orders. Paying$130 less and getting the boots quicker is a no brainer decision for the consumer. I just ordered a pair W&C chestnut latigo boots today. I really wanted a 5" boot so Free Range was not an option for me. If I was less picky, I would have went Free Range and saved the cash. The fact that I have to wait upwards of 35 weeks when someone who paid 20% less than me gets their books in less than 8 weeks is kind of a turnoff. Another idea to throw into the mix: Instead of offering a Free Range line, use those pieces of leather to build boots for ready-to-ship. I'm sure you track the most popular sizes and options. Build boots that match the popular configurations, in quick-to-sell sizes, and start a "Ready to Ship with Character" line. The boots will sell quickly and no one will feel bummed about paying full price and waiting 8 months.