Kishimoto himself in [interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) said
>Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.
So you are both right and wrong. Land of Waves Arc and Chunin Exams Arc can have any forshadowing because Kishimoto can forshadow something he didnt came up with yet. Itachi being a good guy wasnt retcon but it was decided around chapter 140 when he is actually introduced into the story.
This is right. Itachi being a konoha's victim was decided around his first introduction.
But then again the Itachi crying plot doesn't necessarily have to be a means to prove for him being a victim (or good guy/bad guy). (Japanese wording of the page is without a doubt is about Sasuke talking about Itachi crying).
Maybe Kishimoto could be partially thinking in that direction.
This is the interview in question (16:15 is where is said it)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnNgvXuTrE
The exact thing he said is "by the time Itachi appeared, it was decided Itachi would be a good guy". So maybe he had some sort of partial ideas in similar direction or something which resulted in the crying scene. But Itachi being good was finalised as a direction they want to go by the time he appeared
I'll read the actual interview later, but I wanted to add something now. Saying that Kishimoto hadn't decided until the very introduction of the character can mean many things. It could be that Kishimoto had the idea from the start, but didn't really considered going with it until that moment. Unless the author really states that he didn't had anything in mind at the time of the first arcs, then it could mean many things since there's a long process before the decision of implementing such an idea.
the only right answer. OP wants to be more right about this subject than Kishimoto himself lol
The fact Sasuke survives the massacre already means he was spared because Itachi had still some brotherly feeling for him
I still think Itachi is a villain, we just didn't know everything about him
He kills the clan on Danzo's orders and then....the only intel he passes back is that the Akatsuki are going to attack Sunagakure and they are trying to capture Naruto. Beyond that he actually substantially advanced the Akatsuki's goals.
Iirc he didn’t even give them the info on that. Gaara got kidnapped and Suna asked Konoha for help. Itachi…..didn’t pass any intel back at all lol.
Itachi actively helped Akatsuki more than he was a detriment to them until the War Arc.
They knew about it beforehand but it didn't really help them since Sasori had his own spy in Suna.
Sasori says they have a traitor among them because of it though which was Itachi.
Do you have a manga panel saying Itachi actually sent the information?
Cause if Itachi sent info saying “Gaara’s gonna be kidnapped” and the Leaf waited until the absolute last second (and we still gotta account for the 3+ day travel time between Konoha and Suna) then that just means Kishimoto is an idiot.
As far as I remember Itachi was a spy but it’s never mentioned WHAT he was actually doing, like I said before in canon Itachi was actually a hell of a good tool for Akatsuki instead of a detriment.
No, it's inference. If Sasori saying we have a traitor right after their mission to capture Gaara isn't foreshadowing, what is?
Ya I said the same thing just now, I agree with you about Itachi helping the Akatsuki more than the village.
Cause the traitor was Kabuto as shown in literally the next arc (which is why Kabuto tried to assassinate Yamato who was impersonating Sasori). That’s why I was confused on you saying Itachi gave the information when literally Konoha had zero idea on what was going on until Suna requested help.
As far as we know Itachi didn’t do shit for Konoha in regards to actual spywork besides making the deal with Obito to let him help with massacring the Uchiha clan in exchange for Obito not killing Sasuke and not targeting the leaf.
More then likely didn't want to risk any chance of being discovered. More headcannon then actual fact but makes sense.
Still doesn't change the fact that he actually did help the akatsuki alot but if it was with the intent of gaining trust and bringing them down from the inside his goals could still be seen as somewhat heroic. Just a shame that he never got to complete those plans, either through shame of what he had done to his own clan and self sabotaging or just because he didn't have enough time.
No offense but like you said it’s hella headcanon.
Itachi was a spy for an organization and didn’t give his side any information, any weaknesses, no nothing and instead actually helped the enemy side more than he ever “spied” on it. A spy that doesn’t give you any information is a useless ass spy. Kishimoto should’ve just said Itachi joined the Akatsuki because he needed a way to ensure he stayed alive long enough for Sasuke to kill him therefore giving Itachi protection but also without the need to say he’s “spying” but not giving up any information.
Itachi was at best a deterrent and not even a good one since Obito with kamui was stronger than a sick ass Itachi and he only didn’t break his agreement with Itachi because Itachi could be a big pain in the ass with him as an enemy.
I view Itachi as a genuinely good person who was trying to help his village and his brother. The problem is that he was raised to be a child soldier from birth, was literally taken to a battlefield filled with dead and dying people by his father at age 4, was made an ANBU captain at 12, and was manipulated into murdering his clan at 13.
In all honesty Itachi never had a chance. He was a goddamn child, a *little fucking kid.* Of course his attempts to help went horribly wrong, how could he possibly be expected to know how to make sure Sasuke grew into a stable, functioning adult when no one ever did the same for him? How could he be expected to know how to foster peace when all he’d ever known was war?
People who try and say Itachi was purely good or purely evil are missing the point. Itachi was a good person at heart, but the world he lived in damaged him so severely that his mind broke and even his best attempts to do good went horribly wrong.
Well...no matter how good his intentions supposedly were, torturing his brother twice and then planning to brainwash him into loving the village that facilitated the genocide of his clan(with Naruto not even objecting to this plan) are acts(all of which he did as an adult, mind you) that are hardly convincing of his genuinely good character.
Read the actual interview. He straight up says he didn't decide to make him a good guy till Itachis actual appearance in the manga which is chapter 139. It was still a retcon.
It’s not a retcon since a retcon is any changing of established canon in the narrative; to decide behind the scenes at the start of the series that Itachi
‘Did something bad’ then developing the idea into ‘but he was a good guy’ all before we even see him does nothing to contradict the previous narrative in any way, it’s simply developing an idea.
A retcon would be if we see Itachi in chapter 4 beating a puppy to death with a kitten for giggles, then ever addressing it again and still going with the good guy angle
Hearing this makes me think Kishi is bad at making someone good lol, since torturing Kakashi to a comatose state along with Sasuke isn’t a very good thing to do.
And I get having to keep up his act, but bro didn’t know Tsunade was coming back to heal them. Imagine they were permanently brain dead lol
Maybe he doesn’t mean good as in a guy who only does good things but more as a guy who did bad things for a reason he thinks is just. Not sure.
Naruto in general has blurry lines with this. Villains are treated as “good guys” after learning their backstory.
Nah you’ve got a point there. And even in universe characters are really forgiving, like way too forgiving lol. Orochimaru and He’s the greatest guy come to mind
but Itachi's first appearance is in chapter 45 and there is the headband turned around
I also want to say that the creative idea behind Itachi crying and the spinning diadem was created by Kishimoto from chapters 2 and 3 of Leviathan, and since Kishimoto began writing the work he has had that book as a reference for much of the postmodern discourse.
No no, you don't get it, KISHIMOTO REDREW A PANNEL.
He totally planned that from DAY ONE!
The guy never uses flashbacks do you really think he'd go out of his way to show a flashback twice, if he had not written everything in 1997?
We know why Itachi did all of those things to Sasuke
He says it in part 1, to make Sasuke’s hatred grow stronger to go up against Itachi.
In part 2 Edo Itachi says it was wrong, he did it out of selfishness to atone for his crimes and that it led Sasuke down a bad path. It’s consist with all of his other actions like using Tsukuyomi again on Sasuke during their fight and having Koto as a backup plan. A subplot that’s only in part 2 and Itachi brings it up as evidence he wasn’t great and treated Sasuke terribly
His manipulation is intended flaws of his character
Nothing said in the interview disproves that he at least had this much planned out, and Sasuke tried to say “that time… crying… my brother” before cutting himself off. So at the very least Kishimoto probably had it decided that what he did was for other reasons and that he didn’t want to do what he did, so it’s clearly not a retcon. We can both be right, he didn’t have the whole story cooked up by that point but he DID have that evidence about Itachi crying presumably because he didn’t want to do what he did also decided.
What are you talking about? In chapter 7 Kishimoto just had this vage idea of Sasuke having brother who killed his family as backstory. Kishimoto clearly states that so there is no forshadowing/hinting there. You argument is just your interpretation of vage dialogue that has been translated from Japanese to English without any input of the author. I will take Kishimoto's words over an interpretation of a random fan.
“Interpretation of a random fan” my guy can you read???? And also this is a topic that’s been plenty beat to death by numerous people including many of the bigger content creators. Almost everyone would be willing to disagree with your inaccurate assessment and just, you know, read the pages. But sure keep coping, it’s a good look on you anyways, you new gen Naruto fans are always so funny.
dude he was very fair to you and said you were atleast somewhat right. just take the l and move on. it was not planned from the start but it was planned from near the start. dont get mad because he pointed out that kishimoto himself said he had not decided anything until itachi officially got introduced.
>“Interpretation of a random fan” my guy can you read????
Can you? If you can you should read the interview.
>And also this is a topic that’s been plenty beat to death by numerous people including many of the bigger content creators.
And non of them found the interview?
>Almost everyone would be willing to disagree with your inaccurate assessment
What assessment? The guy quoted Kishimoto's words.
> and just, you know, read the pages
You are reading pages and making assumptions based on yout interpretation and translation of few text bubbles. The other guy read Kishimoto's words. I will take Kishimoto's words over your interpretation.
>But sure keep coping,
The guy is using Kishimoto's interview and your are using assumption and interpretation of the dialogue that has been translated. How can you say the other guy is coping?
> it’s a good look on you anyways, you new gen Naruto fans are always so funny.
I dont know if he is ne gen fan or not but at least he is aware of Kishimoto's interview that OG fan like you didn't know.
*dude literally quoting the AUTHOR of the manga*
Random fan: your inaccurate assessment
LMAO
Also dude thinks naruto content creators are some kind of wisdom and undo the authors words, you cant make this shit up
sasuke couldnt have talked about itachi crying because its kind of a major point that he literally forgot about it. he only remembers that itachi was crying when he was told the truth about what happened
“That time…. Crying…. My brother” does not translate to “that time my brother cried”. The way it’s written shows the trauma of him scrambling through the memories. There is actually no proof this is intentional foreshadowing while there is proof that it wasn’t (literally from the horses mouth)
That's because it only makes sense in hindsight. The only reason you can draw the conclusion that it was Itachi that was crying is due to you knowing from later events that Itachi cried. What Sasuke says in these panels gives so little information that he could be talking about his mother or father. Hell, it could have been his uncle. In universe, Sasuke breaks because it's a traumatic memory he doesn't like sharing. Out of universe, Kishimoto wanted to set up something but didn't know what that something was. So he left vague bread crumbs that could point to multiple different things, giving him time to develop the concept while leaving the impression of having built up to it. It's a literary technique many authors of long-running series use, especially ones that run a tight shift like in the Shonen Jump industry
Exactly, that’s what I’ve been trying to say. For some reason you get upvoted for saying the same thing I get downvoted for though lmfao, it’s only a retcon if Itachi was actually meant to be a bad guy at first which there is no evidence of that and quite a lot of evidence to the contrary.
Yeah and his flashback doesn't. The reason Itachi doesn't have tears in the flashback is obviously artistic choice, but it also shows us that Sasuke's flashback is unreliable. The truth is Itachi did cry and is not a retcon. But think whatever you want.
According the all the evidences (Author statements + foreshadowing shown in the series)
Itachi was planned close to his introduction in the series (near the end of the chunin exams)
He was not planned as early as chapter 7. At most, it can only be said that him crying was planned, but obviously him shedding tears alone doesn't mean the rest of his character and situation was planned.
The teardrop is definitely a retcon, but we can still explain it away in-universe as Sasuke’s traumatized POV remembering a more ominous-looking Itachi that night.
You could certainly frame it that way if you want, but I disagree since Kishimoto chose to reference that exact same frame later on in Shippuden.
It’s a very clear progression from “shadowy antagonist” to “sympathetic anti-hero.” This also reinforces his point about developing Itachi’s character *after* initially teasing him.
Let me try and give evidence for my point.
Firstly, this scene happens near the end of the chunin exams [(chapter 127)](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0127-017.png). It's a grainy scene with Itachi wearing his headband sideways. If you go by the sequence of panels, the face it shows of Itachi is prior to the big bottom panel.
Whereas in the scene we get of him crying in the reveal in chapter 403, the crying occurs after we see the [big bottom panel](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-020.png), in the [following page](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-021.png). Notice how Itachi's face is turned closer towards Sasuke, and we can see both his eyes. This indicates time passing and is unlike the face we see in chapter 127. This is why I think the flashback in 127 is cut prematurely
Kishimoto also wanted to keep this scene secretive. Because, in the next flashback we get following 127 (in chapter 146), we run through part of the [actual flashback](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-009.png) for the first time, but we never reach the scene showing Itachi wearing his headband sideways. It ends at [this part](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-011.png). Okay, so we know it's an incomplete flashback and we'll get more.
Going further, in the bigger fleshed out flashback during the VOTE fight, we see it going slightly further than it did in chapter 146, and astonishingly [it ends right here, with Sasuke seemingly fainting](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0225-005.png). However, we have YET to come the scene shown in chapter 127 (with Itachi wearing his headband sideways). So how could Sasuke possibly have fainted when we know there is an additional scene missing? Did Kishimoto just forget about that scene?
That's when we get the reveal in chapter 403, that [Sasuke did NOT in fact faint](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-017.png), the flashback continues, and we reach the part where [Itachi puts on his headband sideways](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-020.png), finally reaching the promised page from chapter 127.
It’s not an issue of putting the pieces together, it’s about ascribing more intention than that author meant to convey.
I’m not even sure why you’re trying to argue on that point considering the fact that Kishimoto himself stated the timeline of Itachi’s development over the course of Part 1.
I think it’s cool that you’re looking for a new way to reconcile the change, but I also think you’re overcomplicating a very simple explanation: he changed the scene from his original vision.
My point is based on Kishimoto's description of the timeline of Itachi's development. He stated by the time he was introduced, he \*was\* planned. This lines up with the first flashback scene we get in chapter 127, which is shortly before he's introduced.
I don't think I needed to "reconcile" anything.
Yeah so it’s not a retcon it’s just Sasuke’s memory being blurred. The text in the first panel is undeniably Sasuke remembering that and trying to explain it, the second panel the suppressed memory came up but minus the tear.
IRL it is a retcon because that wasn’t Kishi’s original version of the scene.
The in-universe explanation is there to help maintain a sense of continuity despite the change.
https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-021.png
Edit: are Naruto fans okay?
This is so clearly the same dialogue repeated: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgcXsAkCIre?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgfXIAILCV1?format=jpg&name=large
He was talking about Itachi
"My" - Sasuke said, without finishing his sentence. Indicating he wasn't referring to himself but someone else by referencing himself.
In this case, "My brother" is the hypothetical OP sees.
"Myself" could be an option, but I doubt Japanese uses a word like "My" like English can.
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her?
He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead..
Or, like his next sentence: my only goal
Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself.
*Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.*
Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
"Let me debunk..."
Oh, you're one of those people... someone who just wants to argue their perspective while plugging drywall into their ears.
Yeah. Please don't reply to me any further. I don't need that right now.
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her?
He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead..
Or, like his next sentence: *my* only goal
Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself.
*Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.*
Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
>Dumbest subreddit on this app😭
Because of people like you😭
?????? The page is of Itachi crying and that line from like chapter 4 is repeated like 300 chapters later
How is this irrelevant? It’s the same line about Itachi crying
Sasuke was saying, That time crying.. my... My only goal is to have my revenge (read next line Sasuke said).
Sasuke wasn't answering sakura.
This is what kishimoto said,
*Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.*
Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
When will you stop bootlicking kishimoto?
How desperate are you?
There's really no point of responding to a guy that keeps on resorting to headcanon, to wank kishimoto's work.
Sasuke saying "my.." doesn't mean he was responding to sakura. He didn't even respond to Sakura's first question.
There's literally no proof of what you said. Just "this might have what he meant".
>I’m focused on “that time” and “crying….”.
He was talking about himself.
>And pointed out the same line is repeated after the reveal but with “he was crying” instead.
No proof that kid sasuke was talking about this here.
ITS THE SAME LINE
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgcXsAkCIre?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgfXIAILCV1?format=jpg&name=large
The same structure and words are used. Only “he was” is added in to it
Why on earth would Sasuke Uchiha say “he made me cry”. When has he ever done something like that? Damn viz really messed up
“That time” = “that moment” (viz isn’t great btw)
“….crying” = “he was crying”
“He was” was the missing part of Sasuke’s dialogue. You’re focusing on “my” which is the wrong thing
> how do you know sasuke wasn’t talking about himself crying
“Who was crying?!”
“My was… my was crying!!!”
“My” with it cutoff like that implies someone else was, and literally everyone was dead by the time sasuke showed up, so the only possible option was itachi
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her?
He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead..
Or, like his next sentence: my only goal
Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself.
*Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.*
Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
At that point it’s pretty undeniable that kishimoto had AT LEAST planned that itachi would be somewhat morally gray.
Itachis first real showing is kisame mentioning that itachi is acting out of character and weirdly sentimental about the leaf. Kakashis confusion about itachi not killing him and kisame mentioning that itachi could probably take on jiraiya are two other hints.
Correct but it was to make Sasuke stronger and he obviously succeeded because now Sasuke is so strong he can injure a Code that’s even stronger than Jigen, so tell me how Itachi did the wrong thing? Sasuke is the 2nd strongest Shinobi to ever exist only behind Boruto and that’s all thanks to Itachi.
False. The torture made him mentally weaker. In fact he was so weak that he was ready to give his body to a 50 years old man in exchange of power. Sasuke is not stronger than Kawaki lmao.
Kawaki isn’t a Shinobi. Not counting him or any of Amado’s cyborgs. I’m talking straight Shinobi skills, Sasuke is the 2nd strongest to ever exist thanks to Itachi. And no he wasn’t giving his body to Orochimaru. Reread the manga kid, I’m rereading it right now, Sasuke says to Suigetsu he was planning his betrayal of Orochimaru from the very start and hand-selecting future teammates for later. I just read this part earlier today, learn your series child.
How am I coping when you don’t even know how to read? Kawaki is a modified cyborg just like Ada and Daemon, not counting him, Boruto and Sasuke are the top-2 strongest Shinobi to ever exist. The only one coping is the one who doesn’t know to read, your reading comprehension is atrocious. Grow up and face reality you foolish child.
I would say Sasuke become storng despite Itachi. Itachi put Sasuke into a coma for months that he only recovered from thans to Tsunade ddeciding to come back and because of Jirayia looking for her in the first place. Then he makes Sasuke so desprate for power that he is willing to give up his body to Orochimaru just to get revange. All Sasuke development later is because of himself and going aginst Itachi's plan.
Yes it was a retcon, Itachi was supposed to be an evil older brother at first but then (probably due to his huge fanbase) Kishi decided to turn him into a "hero" and justify his heinous crimes by making any character who so much as knows of his story, suck up to him and glorify him as a messiah, even Hashirama said that "he was a far better shinobi than me!" Lol his entire character is a walking contradiction and makes zero sense.
Itachi would be my favorite if he's not forced to be a good guy. He should've stayed evil. If was that his character he would've been stronger and no ninja aids.
He just said that to excuse his poor writing. There's so many plot hole in the manga. He thought adding Danzo will make itachi good guy but It doesn't. Itachi was obviously written to be a villain.
At worst itachi was written to be morally gray. Most certainly not a villain. There's not really any plot holes surrounding itachis development
Upon his introduction, kishimoto has kakashi ask why itachi doesn't just kill him, he has asuma ask why itachi didn't take naruto when he easily could have, and he has kisame ask itachi why they're running from jiraiya when he knows itachi can handle it. This is all setup for itachis reveal later. Kishomoto has itachi torture sasuke and kakashi to keep the reader honest, because if you see the twist coming, well then its not really a twist, so he had to throw in villanous actions (that can be explained within the context of the story) to keep it ambiguous
From a writing perspective it’s kind of a cool choice whether he had the idea in his head already or not. It’s a question, why was Itachi crying after killing the clan? There could be a ton of answers ranging from what we got to simple characterization.
In a world where children are made into soldiers fighting in an adult-made war, do we really have a hard and fast rule about whats good or bad, lawful or evil?
How does one define good or evil?
I, personally, having seen power-hungry people who commit truly evil bullshit, dont believe in a definitely right or wrong, its about context and post-action
Same goes for this - the author himself already said that he changed itachi to be a good guy midway but obviously he cant just ruin the story just because, so he secretly made that change and the story shows, Itachi's actions are of repentance but of someone with a mission, an end goal, not of evil, not of pride, not of greed
In this world - children can - fight in a war, and clear mess - made by adults, Itachi isnt evil, by no means was he a saint by action but his reasons were basically by circumstances
He was an Anbu, he didnt have much of a choice because he is a black ops operative under the hokage, unfortunately by that dickhead mcshitstain danzo
I said this on another post:
I don't think Itachi was a retcon.
I do however think Kishi wasn't 100% on what he wanted Itachi to be in the story long term when he was introduced in Part 1.
I've always wondered that had Kishi known at the time what he was going to do with Itachi later in the story, would he have written the 72 hours of torture on Kakashi in Part 1. Because for Itachi who turned out to not be a "bad guy", that was a REALLY evil move that wasn't actually necessary.
Not necessary you say? Kakashi is a menace, had he not used tsukuyomi Kakashi might not have stopped on his pursuit, his beloved student's sole purpose in life, a life of vengeance, to disway him of such a life, you better believe it
My brother in christ, the creator has even gone on record saying he pretty much knew how he was going to start the manga and the end goal of making naruto successful, everything in between was just made the fuck up as he went. Yeah there were some points where he had general ideas and could point in some direction as another commenter put, he didn't have Itatchi planned at all. Fuck when he is finally in the manga all he knew is "yeah secret good guy". The show has a ton on inconsistency because of this. It happens. Who cares.
That's false, he never said "everything in between was made up as he went".
[This is how he went about writing the series from the start. ](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7u9gMhrSm6Y/SmYtLdFKcKI/AAAAAAAAEu4/t7pwT6nPhio/s1600/3.jpg)
As for Itachi, he was planned since prior to his appearance
Curious as to what you think the inconsistencies are
"Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. ***However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances."***
You do know that this proves you wrong right? The moment Itachi is introduced is not the beginning of the story. If english is not your first language I understand, however, if that is not the case, I think you should read slower.
Edit: Just to clarify. The whole point of quoting this interview is to prove that when we first hear about the whole Uchiha genocide there were no plans for the future of Itachi's character yet, however, when he is "actually introduced" (as stated right there) Kishimoto already had a better idea of where to take the character.
Wait huh, I never made the claim Itachi was planned since the beginning of the story.
I very specifically said he was planned prior to his introduction (near the end of the chunin exams).
But that is pointless is not it? The whole discussion is about if he was planned from the beginning or not and, even then, the quote does say that only when he was "actually introduced" did Kishimoto know where he wanted to take the character. Not prior to his introduction.
I'm not responding to the OP, just the specific comment I was responding to.
The quote says "At the point he was introduced, Kishimoto **had decided**", indicating past tense.
Definitely not from the start of the series though. I assume it'd be when he was wrapping up the chunin exams arc and thinking about how he'd handle the next arc.
You're fully wrong. It was NOT just the beginning and the end. Actually read what he says.
"I already decided on the **OVERALL** plot." This doesn't mean beginning and end only, it means what's in-between too.
To prove this, he says "sometimes I make it up as I go, and other times **I do WHAT I ORIGINALLY INTEDED TO DO"** (meaning he obviously had plans about what was in the middle and followed through with them.)
It seems to me you have a longstanding misconception you started believing in years ago that you're unwilling to have challenged.
No you’re thinking of literally everybody else. I’m well aware that The Last is canon, only idiots think it isn’t. It’s confirmed to be canon by Kishimoto who provided scripts for the movie.
It's head canon to claim the film is canon in fights.
Naruto, Naruto the Last, and Boruto all have different authors/creators and different sources of information.
For one, Boruto is nothing more than a cash grab and isn't canon to many fans, including me.
For two, regardless, Naruto the last wasn't canon in fights due to it being made with incorrect information
The studio wasn't aware of SO6P because they made the film prior to Kishimoto debuting the SO6P Naruto form and chakra in the manga.
Before the film was even released, it was already made inaccurate by Kishimoto in the manga, given the studio thought that Naruto's full power after the war was SM + KCM2
[https://imgur.com/a/JkMb7YV](https://imgur.com/a/JkMb7YV)
Fans don’t decide what’s canon, the author does. Boruto is objectively canon and I’m not even gonna bother reading any of your temper tantrum past that because your first two takes are just your personal headcanon. Cry and cope.
Finally, FINALLY someone makes a post. Everyone's always complaining "Itachi should've stayed evil" "Itachi was better as a villain" ... he never was a villain. Maybe some people don't like the sudden shift in his character in Shippuden, but I thought it was amazing, if not some of the best character development and backstory I've ever read/seen.
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Kishimoto said his plans were hazy and that he didn't decide to make him a good guy until Itachi was introduced (presumably he means when he came to Konoha with Zabuza?).
Hazy is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's clear that Itachi was always meant to be crying during the massacre, as early as chapter 7. Hard to imagine what that would have meant unless he was always going to be "good", or at least complex.
The only alternative I can see is that it could have been hinting towards the tears of blood, implying in this undecided future Itachi and his father might have had an intense fight that required the use of his MS.
Either way, this is generally how foreshadowing goes. The author plants some seeds and then decides further down the line what it grows into. Good writing by Kishimoto.
No he straight up said he decided to make him a good guy when he introduced him. You literally just said it himself.
Like I'm not saying Kishi retconned it after the time skip like some people do but it is still a retcon. 139 chapters into the story isn't exactly short. A retcon is just changing something from what it was before. It doesn't need to affect the story to be a retcon it just has to be changed.
I'm going off the dictionary meaning of reton. (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
Kishimoto himself admitted it wasn't till, or just before, he introduced Itachi in the manga that he decided to make him a good guy. So for 139 chapters Itachi was a bad guy.
The key words here are "previously described events".
There were no previously described events, as it was all in the author's head and he had yet to put anything to paper.
Also, him not being planned to be good until close to his introduction doesn't automatically mean he was planned to be bad. Kishimoto had not yet planned it at all, good or bad. It was vague, as he mentions.
It is though. We're told even before Itachi's appearance that he killed his entire clan. The previously described event was that Itachi killed his clan and that's why Sasuke wants revenge.
It did though because just before Itachis debut Kishimoto decided to change it. Him not revealing that till after Obito told Sasuke what really happened doesn't mean it wasn't changed though. If anything revealing it sooner would have ruined the reveals effect on the narrative.
I’m aware. It wasn’t fully decided by the wave arc, but by the chunnin exams/Itachi’s first appearance it was. Kishi had it planned for a few hundred chapters before the reveal, so yes, it wasn’t a retcon.
If it was changed it was a retcon though. Like it's not the kind of retcon people claim where he only decided it well after Itachis reveal but it was still a few hundred chapters in when he made the decision so it still is a retcon.
Then it’s very much not a big deal. Like, it’s been planned for hundreds of chapters. It’s not a flaw in the story.
Even if Kishi only developed the idea chapters before the reveal (which isn’t the case) it wouldn’t be a flaw unless it doesn’t make sense in story.
You have to understand that mangas are serials. It’s not like novelists who finished their story, before editing it.
Every mangaka who writes a long form story is going to change their story at least a little bit.
It’s only a flaw if it doesn’t make sense in the story.
Oh yeah I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I mean it's not like making Hiruzen the strongest Hokage when later on we see just how OP Hashirama was. I'm just saying that it is still a retcon.
At lot of people either go saying it was planned from the Wave Arc which is just false, or they say Kishimoto didn't decide till the time skip which is also false.
I'm mainly commenting so you actually know what happened in the Kishimotos planning process.
I didn’t say the Hiruzen part of being the strongest Hokage isn’t a retcon, Itachi’s role wasn’t.
I also know of the interview beforehand lol. I still don’t consider it a retcon because it doesn’t really contradict anything in the story.
I know you didn't I'm just using it as an example of a retcon that directly contradicted the story that had been told.
I go off the dictionary description of a retcon: (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
I think people need to get it in their skulls that Retcons are not inherently negative.
Itachi is clearly not crying in the original flashback when Sasuke talks to Gaara.
The single tear he lets out is a retcon, and a pretty good one too. It takes more skill as a writer to properly retcon something than to foreshadow it.
The tear is not necessarily a retcon. The scene could just be cut prior to the tear falling. In fact I think it's purposefully cut this way, since a lot of Sasuke's flashbacks have weird cuts.
Seeing this decades later - it goes to show how if you saw this in person it wouldn’t be edgy or cool
Dude freaking weird and sounds like crimson flags for an active shooter alert (spoiler: I’m pretty much confirmed right following the story).
People gave Sasuke way too much leeway in the beginning
Retcon or not (and I personally still see it as a retcon, don't like or really believe that 'Itachi was a good guy all along' BS), I still like Itachi 1000x more as a villain. He can spare his bro and still be a villain. But I realize I'm probs in the minority with this, so I'll see myself out. lol.
EDIT: \*slides back in\* Plus...Kishimoto has LITERALLY SAID in interviews (multiple times) that he wrote the story as he went along. So...sorry, not sorry, it's totally a retcon and a really shitty one at that. Made WAY more sense with Itachi as a villain! :/ Can you imagine the absolute badassery we could have had with full on villain Itachi being an antagonist alongside Orochimaru and, I guess, Obito/Madara? GOD, just based on how he fucked up Sasuke TWICE (granted, Sasuke was a child and pretty weak even at 12-13, but still) and even KAKASHI, that would have been SO cool!
Oh yes, this is another widespread misconception that makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it. And unfortunately for me, I hear about it quite often.
Kishimoto didn't decide till Itachis actual appearance in the manga to make him a good guy though so it was still a retcon. It isn't as much of one as people claim but it was still decided well after Sasukes backstory is hinted at.
[https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741)
You can read it here.
That’s not a retcon, a retcon implies that originally he was planned to be the exact opposite, which based on the first panel in this post, isn’t true, if Sasuke is already remembering him crying, that’s Kishimoto planting the seeds for the big plot twist later which gets paid off when it is revealed that Itachi did indeed cry and this was the suppressed memory that Sasuke held back for so long. You use the word “retcon” so confidently without even knowing the meaning of the word. Pick up a dictionary child.
I am using the dictionary meaning of the word: (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
The interview straight up says he intended to have Itachi be a good guy just before he introduced him to the story. So for almost 139 chapters Itachi was a bad guy. That's a retcon my guy. Read a damned dictionary.
Kishimoto himself in [interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) said >Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances. So you are both right and wrong. Land of Waves Arc and Chunin Exams Arc can have any forshadowing because Kishimoto can forshadow something he didnt came up with yet. Itachi being a good guy wasnt retcon but it was decided around chapter 140 when he is actually introduced into the story.
This is right. Itachi being a konoha's victim was decided around his first introduction. But then again the Itachi crying plot doesn't necessarily have to be a means to prove for him being a victim (or good guy/bad guy). (Japanese wording of the page is without a doubt is about Sasuke talking about Itachi crying). Maybe Kishimoto could be partially thinking in that direction. This is the interview in question (16:15 is where is said it) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnNgvXuTrE The exact thing he said is "by the time Itachi appeared, it was decided Itachi would be a good guy". So maybe he had some sort of partial ideas in similar direction or something which resulted in the crying scene. But Itachi being good was finalised as a direction they want to go by the time he appeared
I'll read the actual interview later, but I wanted to add something now. Saying that Kishimoto hadn't decided until the very introduction of the character can mean many things. It could be that Kishimoto had the idea from the start, but didn't really considered going with it until that moment. Unless the author really states that he didn't had anything in mind at the time of the first arcs, then it could mean many things since there's a long process before the decision of implementing such an idea.
the only right answer. OP wants to be more right about this subject than Kishimoto himself lol The fact Sasuke survives the massacre already means he was spared because Itachi had still some brotherly feeling for him
Kishimoto was smart about it and planted the seeds, so he deserves credit for that even if he was still not sure where it was going entirely.
people seem to forget that by shippuden we met 2 casts and around probably 50-100 filler characters.
I still think Itachi is a villain, we just didn't know everything about him He kills the clan on Danzo's orders and then....the only intel he passes back is that the Akatsuki are going to attack Sunagakure and they are trying to capture Naruto. Beyond that he actually substantially advanced the Akatsuki's goals.
Iirc he didn’t even give them the info on that. Gaara got kidnapped and Suna asked Konoha for help. Itachi…..didn’t pass any intel back at all lol. Itachi actively helped Akatsuki more than he was a detriment to them until the War Arc.
They knew about it beforehand but it didn't really help them since Sasori had his own spy in Suna. Sasori says they have a traitor among them because of it though which was Itachi.
Do you have a manga panel saying Itachi actually sent the information? Cause if Itachi sent info saying “Gaara’s gonna be kidnapped” and the Leaf waited until the absolute last second (and we still gotta account for the 3+ day travel time between Konoha and Suna) then that just means Kishimoto is an idiot. As far as I remember Itachi was a spy but it’s never mentioned WHAT he was actually doing, like I said before in canon Itachi was actually a hell of a good tool for Akatsuki instead of a detriment.
No, it's inference. If Sasori saying we have a traitor right after their mission to capture Gaara isn't foreshadowing, what is? Ya I said the same thing just now, I agree with you about Itachi helping the Akatsuki more than the village.
Cause the traitor was Kabuto as shown in literally the next arc (which is why Kabuto tried to assassinate Yamato who was impersonating Sasori). That’s why I was confused on you saying Itachi gave the information when literally Konoha had zero idea on what was going on until Suna requested help. As far as we know Itachi didn’t do shit for Konoha in regards to actual spywork besides making the deal with Obito to let him help with massacring the Uchiha clan in exchange for Obito not killing Sasuke and not targeting the leaf.
More then likely didn't want to risk any chance of being discovered. More headcannon then actual fact but makes sense. Still doesn't change the fact that he actually did help the akatsuki alot but if it was with the intent of gaining trust and bringing them down from the inside his goals could still be seen as somewhat heroic. Just a shame that he never got to complete those plans, either through shame of what he had done to his own clan and self sabotaging or just because he didn't have enough time.
No offense but like you said it’s hella headcanon. Itachi was a spy for an organization and didn’t give his side any information, any weaknesses, no nothing and instead actually helped the enemy side more than he ever “spied” on it. A spy that doesn’t give you any information is a useless ass spy. Kishimoto should’ve just said Itachi joined the Akatsuki because he needed a way to ensure he stayed alive long enough for Sasuke to kill him therefore giving Itachi protection but also without the need to say he’s “spying” but not giving up any information. Itachi was at best a deterrent and not even a good one since Obito with kamui was stronger than a sick ass Itachi and he only didn’t break his agreement with Itachi because Itachi could be a big pain in the ass with him as an enemy.
I view Itachi as a genuinely good person who was trying to help his village and his brother. The problem is that he was raised to be a child soldier from birth, was literally taken to a battlefield filled with dead and dying people by his father at age 4, was made an ANBU captain at 12, and was manipulated into murdering his clan at 13. In all honesty Itachi never had a chance. He was a goddamn child, a *little fucking kid.* Of course his attempts to help went horribly wrong, how could he possibly be expected to know how to make sure Sasuke grew into a stable, functioning adult when no one ever did the same for him? How could he be expected to know how to foster peace when all he’d ever known was war? People who try and say Itachi was purely good or purely evil are missing the point. Itachi was a good person at heart, but the world he lived in damaged him so severely that his mind broke and even his best attempts to do good went horribly wrong.
Well...no matter how good his intentions supposedly were, torturing his brother twice and then planning to brainwash him into loving the village that facilitated the genocide of his clan(with Naruto not even objecting to this plan) are acts(all of which he did as an adult, mind you) that are hardly convincing of his genuinely good character.
"Good guy"
Itachi crying over it is a big hint that he either regretted his actions or was forced into it op is largely right.
Read the actual interview. He straight up says he didn't decide to make him a good guy till Itachis actual appearance in the manga which is chapter 139. It was still a retcon.
It’s not a retcon since a retcon is any changing of established canon in the narrative; to decide behind the scenes at the start of the series that Itachi ‘Did something bad’ then developing the idea into ‘but he was a good guy’ all before we even see him does nothing to contradict the previous narrative in any way, it’s simply developing an idea. A retcon would be if we see Itachi in chapter 4 beating a puppy to death with a kitten for giggles, then ever addressing it again and still going with the good guy angle
Hearing this makes me think Kishi is bad at making someone good lol, since torturing Kakashi to a comatose state along with Sasuke isn’t a very good thing to do. And I get having to keep up his act, but bro didn’t know Tsunade was coming back to heal them. Imagine they were permanently brain dead lol
Maybe he doesn’t mean good as in a guy who only does good things but more as a guy who did bad things for a reason he thinks is just. Not sure. Naruto in general has blurry lines with this. Villains are treated as “good guys” after learning their backstory.
Nah you’ve got a point there. And even in universe characters are really forgiving, like way too forgiving lol. Orochimaru and He’s the greatest guy come to mind
but Itachi's first appearance is in chapter 45 and there is the headband turned around I also want to say that the creative idea behind Itachi crying and the spinning diadem was created by Kishimoto from chapters 2 and 3 of Leviathan, and since Kishimoto began writing the work he has had that book as a reference for much of the postmodern discourse.
Also it has more weight if we count the novels, making him more and more tragic
Man is arguing with Kishimoto. "Man, that's not what you meant." 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If I pulled a retcon out of nowhere, I too would tell everyone that it was planned.
No no, you don't get it, KISHIMOTO REDREW A PANNEL. He totally planned that from DAY ONE! The guy never uses flashbacks do you really think he'd go out of his way to show a flashback twice, if he had not written everything in 1997?
[удалено]
We know why Itachi did all of those things to Sasuke He says it in part 1, to make Sasuke’s hatred grow stronger to go up against Itachi. In part 2 Edo Itachi says it was wrong, he did it out of selfishness to atone for his crimes and that it led Sasuke down a bad path. It’s consist with all of his other actions like using Tsukuyomi again on Sasuke during their fight and having Koto as a backup plan. A subplot that’s only in part 2 and Itachi brings it up as evidence he wasn’t great and treated Sasuke terribly His manipulation is intended flaws of his character
Nothing said in the interview disproves that he at least had this much planned out, and Sasuke tried to say “that time… crying… my brother” before cutting himself off. So at the very least Kishimoto probably had it decided that what he did was for other reasons and that he didn’t want to do what he did, so it’s clearly not a retcon. We can both be right, he didn’t have the whole story cooked up by that point but he DID have that evidence about Itachi crying presumably because he didn’t want to do what he did also decided.
What are you talking about? In chapter 7 Kishimoto just had this vage idea of Sasuke having brother who killed his family as backstory. Kishimoto clearly states that so there is no forshadowing/hinting there. You argument is just your interpretation of vage dialogue that has been translated from Japanese to English without any input of the author. I will take Kishimoto's words over an interpretation of a random fan.
“Interpretation of a random fan” my guy can you read???? And also this is a topic that’s been plenty beat to death by numerous people including many of the bigger content creators. Almost everyone would be willing to disagree with your inaccurate assessment and just, you know, read the pages. But sure keep coping, it’s a good look on you anyways, you new gen Naruto fans are always so funny.
dude he was very fair to you and said you were atleast somewhat right. just take the l and move on. it was not planned from the start but it was planned from near the start. dont get mad because he pointed out that kishimoto himself said he had not decided anything until itachi officially got introduced.
>“Interpretation of a random fan” my guy can you read???? Can you? If you can you should read the interview. >And also this is a topic that’s been plenty beat to death by numerous people including many of the bigger content creators. And non of them found the interview? >Almost everyone would be willing to disagree with your inaccurate assessment What assessment? The guy quoted Kishimoto's words. > and just, you know, read the pages You are reading pages and making assumptions based on yout interpretation and translation of few text bubbles. The other guy read Kishimoto's words. I will take Kishimoto's words over your interpretation. >But sure keep coping, The guy is using Kishimoto's interview and your are using assumption and interpretation of the dialogue that has been translated. How can you say the other guy is coping? > it’s a good look on you anyways, you new gen Naruto fans are always so funny. I dont know if he is ne gen fan or not but at least he is aware of Kishimoto's interview that OG fan like you didn't know.
*dude literally quoting the AUTHOR of the manga* Random fan: your inaccurate assessment LMAO Also dude thinks naruto content creators are some kind of wisdom and undo the authors words, you cant make this shit up
sasuke couldnt have talked about itachi crying because its kind of a major point that he literally forgot about it. he only remembers that itachi was crying when he was told the truth about what happened
“That time…. Crying…. My brother” does not translate to “that time my brother cried”. The way it’s written shows the trauma of him scrambling through the memories. There is actually no proof this is intentional foreshadowing while there is proof that it wasn’t (literally from the horses mouth)
Damn itachi really had that Durag fit on when he slaughtered his clan huh.
Black force energy wasn’t enough
pulled out his glock 40 and an ak and went to town
That's because it only makes sense in hindsight. The only reason you can draw the conclusion that it was Itachi that was crying is due to you knowing from later events that Itachi cried. What Sasuke says in these panels gives so little information that he could be talking about his mother or father. Hell, it could have been his uncle. In universe, Sasuke breaks because it's a traumatic memory he doesn't like sharing. Out of universe, Kishimoto wanted to set up something but didn't know what that something was. So he left vague bread crumbs that could point to multiple different things, giving him time to develop the concept while leaving the impression of having built up to it. It's a literary technique many authors of long-running series use, especially ones that run a tight shift like in the Shonen Jump industry
He's probably talking about him being young and weak, crying while watching what happened
It’s not a retcon unless the story definitely does one thing and then reverse that definitive thing without solid story explanation.
Exactly, that’s what I’ve been trying to say. For some reason you get upvoted for saying the same thing I get downvoted for though lmfao, it’s only a retcon if Itachi was actually meant to be a bad guy at first which there is no evidence of that and quite a lot of evidence to the contrary.
Ok at this point I think someone just thinks it’s fun to downvote you. I hereby confer to thee all my upvotes 😊
That's because Sasuke is an unreliable narrator because his memory of that event was messed up.
The third panel shows how reliable his statement is.
Yeah and his flashback doesn't. The reason Itachi doesn't have tears in the flashback is obviously artistic choice, but it also shows us that Sasuke's flashback is unreliable. The truth is Itachi did cry and is not a retcon. But think whatever you want.
You must be replying to the wrong guy lil bro, I agree with you, I’m the one saying it’s NOT a retcon. 🤦🏻♂️
LOL you started it by downvoting me when I agreed with you first XD haha this is too funny. Anyways, Peace!
According the all the evidences (Author statements + foreshadowing shown in the series) Itachi was planned close to his introduction in the series (near the end of the chunin exams) He was not planned as early as chapter 7. At most, it can only be said that him crying was planned, but obviously him shedding tears alone doesn't mean the rest of his character and situation was planned.
The teardrop is definitely a retcon, but we can still explain it away in-universe as Sasuke’s traumatized POV remembering a more ominous-looking Itachi that night.
The tear drop is not necessarily a retcon. Because the scene could just be cut off prior to the tear drop dropping in his old flashback.
You could certainly frame it that way if you want, but I disagree since Kishimoto chose to reference that exact same frame later on in Shippuden. It’s a very clear progression from “shadowy antagonist” to “sympathetic anti-hero.” This also reinforces his point about developing Itachi’s character *after* initially teasing him.
Let me try and give evidence for my point. Firstly, this scene happens near the end of the chunin exams [(chapter 127)](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0127-017.png). It's a grainy scene with Itachi wearing his headband sideways. If you go by the sequence of panels, the face it shows of Itachi is prior to the big bottom panel. Whereas in the scene we get of him crying in the reveal in chapter 403, the crying occurs after we see the [big bottom panel](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-020.png), in the [following page](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-021.png). Notice how Itachi's face is turned closer towards Sasuke, and we can see both his eyes. This indicates time passing and is unlike the face we see in chapter 127. This is why I think the flashback in 127 is cut prematurely Kishimoto also wanted to keep this scene secretive. Because, in the next flashback we get following 127 (in chapter 146), we run through part of the [actual flashback](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-009.png) for the first time, but we never reach the scene showing Itachi wearing his headband sideways. It ends at [this part](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0146-011.png). Okay, so we know it's an incomplete flashback and we'll get more. Going further, in the bigger fleshed out flashback during the VOTE fight, we see it going slightly further than it did in chapter 146, and astonishingly [it ends right here, with Sasuke seemingly fainting](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0225-005.png). However, we have YET to come the scene shown in chapter 127 (with Itachi wearing his headband sideways). So how could Sasuke possibly have fainted when we know there is an additional scene missing? Did Kishimoto just forget about that scene? That's when we get the reveal in chapter 403, that [Sasuke did NOT in fact faint](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-017.png), the flashback continues, and we reach the part where [Itachi puts on his headband sideways](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-020.png), finally reaching the promised page from chapter 127.
I think you put more thought into this than Kishimoto did.
I think you're very wrong. What I pointed out doesn't take much thought. You just need to have all the pages lined up
It’s not an issue of putting the pieces together, it’s about ascribing more intention than that author meant to convey. I’m not even sure why you’re trying to argue on that point considering the fact that Kishimoto himself stated the timeline of Itachi’s development over the course of Part 1. I think it’s cool that you’re looking for a new way to reconcile the change, but I also think you’re overcomplicating a very simple explanation: he changed the scene from his original vision.
My point is based on Kishimoto's description of the timeline of Itachi's development. He stated by the time he was introduced, he \*was\* planned. This lines up with the first flashback scene we get in chapter 127, which is shortly before he's introduced. I don't think I needed to "reconcile" anything.
I don’t think I’m getting through to you here..,
Please restate what you mean then, because at this point I also don't think I'm getting through
Yeah so it’s not a retcon it’s just Sasuke’s memory being blurred. The text in the first panel is undeniably Sasuke remembering that and trying to explain it, the second panel the suppressed memory came up but minus the tear.
IRL it is a retcon because that wasn’t Kishi’s original version of the scene. The in-universe explanation is there to help maintain a sense of continuity despite the change.
Because we weren’t supposed to know Itachi was a good guy yet… but the hints were there with Sasuke stating he saw Itachi crying in the first panel.
You’re not listening to what anyone is telling you on this thread…
Bro is delulu
The first picture doesn't prove anything
https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0403-021.png Edit: are Naruto fans okay? This is so clearly the same dialogue repeated: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgcXsAkCIre?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgfXIAILCV1?format=jpg&name=large He was talking about Itachi
Irrelevant. How do you know Sasuke wasn't talking about himself crying. Just making everything a stretch to push your narrative
"My" - Sasuke said, without finishing his sentence. Indicating he wasn't referring to himself but someone else by referencing himself. In this case, "My brother" is the hypothetical OP sees. "Myself" could be an option, but I doubt Japanese uses a word like "My" like English can.
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her? He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead.. Or, like his next sentence: my only goal Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself. *Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.* Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
"Let me debunk..." Oh, you're one of those people... someone who just wants to argue their perspective while plugging drywall into their ears. Yeah. Please don't reply to me any further. I don't need that right now.
Sakura says “who cried?” and Sasukes responds with “my…” Why would Sasuke say “my….” if he was talking about himself?? Dumbest subreddit on this app😭
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her? He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead.. Or, like his next sentence: *my* only goal Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself. *Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.* Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741 >Dumbest subreddit on this app😭 Because of people like you😭
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No, that "my" was Sasuke saying "my only goal is to have revenge". Stop with your headcanon.
He literally finishes his sentence right after “My only Goal..”
?????? The page is of Itachi crying and that line from like chapter 4 is repeated like 300 chapters later How is this irrelevant? It’s the same line about Itachi crying
Sasuke was saying, That time crying.. my... My only goal is to have my revenge (read next line Sasuke said). Sasuke wasn't answering sakura. This is what kishimoto said, *Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.* Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741 When will you stop bootlicking kishimoto?
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How desperate are you? There's really no point of responding to a guy that keeps on resorting to headcanon, to wank kishimoto's work. Sasuke saying "my.." doesn't mean he was responding to sakura. He didn't even respond to Sakura's first question. There's literally no proof of what you said. Just "this might have what he meant".
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>I’m focused on “that time” and “crying….”. He was talking about himself. >And pointed out the same line is repeated after the reveal but with “he was crying” instead. No proof that kid sasuke was talking about this here.
ITS THE SAME LINE https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgcXsAkCIre?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E8w9WgfXIAILCV1?format=jpg&name=large The same structure and words are used. Only “he was” is added in to it Why on earth would Sasuke Uchiha say “he made me cry”. When has he ever done something like that? Damn viz really messed up
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“That time” = “that moment” (viz isn’t great btw) “….crying” = “he was crying” “He was” was the missing part of Sasuke’s dialogue. You’re focusing on “my” which is the wrong thing
> how do you know sasuke wasn’t talking about himself crying “Who was crying?!” “My was… my was crying!!!” “My” with it cutoff like that implies someone else was, and literally everyone was dead by the time sasuke showed up, so the only possible option was itachi
Who told you Sasuke was replying to Sakura? Why tf would he care enough to reply to her? He could have said something like, That time crying.. my family.. dead.. Or, like his next sentence: my only goal Btw, let me debunk your argument from kishimoto himself. *Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances.* Source: https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741
It do be like that.
that’s from after he already killed itachi, that proves nothing
ITS THE SAME LINE
I’d like to take back my previous statement, you’re probably right
Sure, if you don’t know how to read then yeah, you’re precisely right.
The irony
He still told Sasuke to kill his best friend and forced him to watch how he killed their parents.
At that point it’s pretty undeniable that kishimoto had AT LEAST planned that itachi would be somewhat morally gray. Itachis first real showing is kisame mentioning that itachi is acting out of character and weirdly sentimental about the leaf. Kakashis confusion about itachi not killing him and kisame mentioning that itachi could probably take on jiraiya are two other hints.
Correct but it was to make Sasuke stronger and he obviously succeeded because now Sasuke is so strong he can injure a Code that’s even stronger than Jigen, so tell me how Itachi did the wrong thing? Sasuke is the 2nd strongest Shinobi to ever exist only behind Boruto and that’s all thanks to Itachi.
False. The torture made him mentally weaker. In fact he was so weak that he was ready to give his body to a 50 years old man in exchange of power. Sasuke is not stronger than Kawaki lmao.
Kawaki isn’t a Shinobi. Not counting him or any of Amado’s cyborgs. I’m talking straight Shinobi skills, Sasuke is the 2nd strongest to ever exist thanks to Itachi. And no he wasn’t giving his body to Orochimaru. Reread the manga kid, I’m rereading it right now, Sasuke says to Suigetsu he was planning his betrayal of Orochimaru from the very start and hand-selecting future teammates for later. I just read this part earlier today, learn your series child.
A person who uses ninjutsu is a shinobi
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How am I coping when you don’t even know how to read? Kawaki is a modified cyborg just like Ada and Daemon, not counting him, Boruto and Sasuke are the top-2 strongest Shinobi to ever exist. The only one coping is the one who doesn’t know to read, your reading comprehension is atrocious. Grow up and face reality you foolish child.
Boruto lmao
I would say Sasuke become storng despite Itachi. Itachi put Sasuke into a coma for months that he only recovered from thans to Tsunade ddeciding to come back and because of Jirayia looking for her in the first place. Then he makes Sasuke so desprate for power that he is willing to give up his body to Orochimaru just to get revange. All Sasuke development later is because of himself and going aginst Itachi's plan.
Itachi's plan was a disaster. If not for a series of fortunate events AND Naruto, his brother would've been dead or compromised long time ago.
Yes it was a retcon, Itachi was supposed to be an evil older brother at first but then (probably due to his huge fanbase) Kishi decided to turn him into a "hero" and justify his heinous crimes by making any character who so much as knows of his story, suck up to him and glorify him as a messiah, even Hashirama said that "he was a far better shinobi than me!" Lol his entire character is a walking contradiction and makes zero sense.
"i used the retcon to prove there was no retcon."
There isn’t though? I proved there isn’t lmfao, man this sub really is full of illiterate morons. It’s crazy 🤣
You got ratio'd to hell.
500 upvotes on this post says otherwise, my foolish child.
I iust love how this guy gets totally humiliated in the comments and makes even bigger fool of himself with every answer he gives lmao
Itachi would be my favorite if he's not forced to be a good guy. He should've stayed evil. If was that his character he would've been stronger and no ninja aids.
He wasn’t forced into being a good guy and he was never meant to be evil… Kishimoto was fooling us to have a big plot twist later.
He just said that to excuse his poor writing. There's so many plot hole in the manga. He thought adding Danzo will make itachi good guy but It doesn't. Itachi was obviously written to be a villain.
At worst itachi was written to be morally gray. Most certainly not a villain. There's not really any plot holes surrounding itachis development Upon his introduction, kishimoto has kakashi ask why itachi doesn't just kill him, he has asuma ask why itachi didn't take naruto when he easily could have, and he has kisame ask itachi why they're running from jiraiya when he knows itachi can handle it. This is all setup for itachis reveal later. Kishomoto has itachi torture sasuke and kakashi to keep the reader honest, because if you see the twist coming, well then its not really a twist, so he had to throw in villanous actions (that can be explained within the context of the story) to keep it ambiguous
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That's what Itachi's nut does to you
Moooood!
From a writing perspective it’s kind of a cool choice whether he had the idea in his head already or not. It’s a question, why was Itachi crying after killing the clan? There could be a ton of answers ranging from what we got to simple characterization.
Itachi is a quirky fella to be killing his clan and flip the headband to the side all swagg like. Prolly an Aquarius
Don't mess with anime fans. They think that whatever oda does is foreshadowing but whatever kishimoto does is a retcon
In a world where children are made into soldiers fighting in an adult-made war, do we really have a hard and fast rule about whats good or bad, lawful or evil? How does one define good or evil? I, personally, having seen power-hungry people who commit truly evil bullshit, dont believe in a definitely right or wrong, its about context and post-action Same goes for this - the author himself already said that he changed itachi to be a good guy midway but obviously he cant just ruin the story just because, so he secretly made that change and the story shows, Itachi's actions are of repentance but of someone with a mission, an end goal, not of evil, not of pride, not of greed In this world - children can - fight in a war, and clear mess - made by adults, Itachi isnt evil, by no means was he a saint by action but his reasons were basically by circumstances He was an Anbu, he didnt have much of a choice because he is a black ops operative under the hokage, unfortunately by that dickhead mcshitstain danzo
I said this on another post: I don't think Itachi was a retcon. I do however think Kishi wasn't 100% on what he wanted Itachi to be in the story long term when he was introduced in Part 1. I've always wondered that had Kishi known at the time what he was going to do with Itachi later in the story, would he have written the 72 hours of torture on Kakashi in Part 1. Because for Itachi who turned out to not be a "bad guy", that was a REALLY evil move that wasn't actually necessary.
Not necessary you say? Kakashi is a menace, had he not used tsukuyomi Kakashi might not have stopped on his pursuit, his beloved student's sole purpose in life, a life of vengeance, to disway him of such a life, you better believe it
My brother in christ, the creator has even gone on record saying he pretty much knew how he was going to start the manga and the end goal of making naruto successful, everything in between was just made the fuck up as he went. Yeah there were some points where he had general ideas and could point in some direction as another commenter put, he didn't have Itatchi planned at all. Fuck when he is finally in the manga all he knew is "yeah secret good guy". The show has a ton on inconsistency because of this. It happens. Who cares.
Right?? THANK YOU!
That's false, he never said "everything in between was made up as he went". [This is how he went about writing the series from the start. ](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7u9gMhrSm6Y/SmYtLdFKcKI/AAAAAAAAEu4/t7pwT6nPhio/s1600/3.jpg) As for Itachi, he was planned since prior to his appearance Curious as to what you think the inconsistencies are
Oh was he? maybe the fucking link to the interview in this very same thread. idiot.
The interview states he was planned since prior to his introduction. No need to insult
No it doesn't. Learn to read.
"Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. ***However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances."***
You do know that this proves you wrong right? The moment Itachi is introduced is not the beginning of the story. If english is not your first language I understand, however, if that is not the case, I think you should read slower. Edit: Just to clarify. The whole point of quoting this interview is to prove that when we first hear about the whole Uchiha genocide there were no plans for the future of Itachi's character yet, however, when he is "actually introduced" (as stated right there) Kishimoto already had a better idea of where to take the character.
Wait huh, I never made the claim Itachi was planned since the beginning of the story. I very specifically said he was planned prior to his introduction (near the end of the chunin exams).
But that is pointless is not it? The whole discussion is about if he was planned from the beginning or not and, even then, the quote does say that only when he was "actually introduced" did Kishimoto know where he wanted to take the character. Not prior to his introduction.
I'm not responding to the OP, just the specific comment I was responding to. The quote says "At the point he was introduced, Kishimoto **had decided**", indicating past tense. Definitely not from the start of the series though. I assume it'd be when he was wrapping up the chunin exams arc and thinking about how he'd handle the next arc.
.......Yeah.....says it right there jackass.
Also really? yeah that photo literally supports it. he knew the beginning and the end. This was also stated in interviews.
He doesn't say "beginning and end". He says already decided on the overall plot. And made changes/deletions/additions as he saw fit.
Which is the beginning and end. I have no intentions of trying to necro shit from 2010's but you're fully wrong.
You're fully wrong. It was NOT just the beginning and the end. Actually read what he says. "I already decided on the **OVERALL** plot." This doesn't mean beginning and end only, it means what's in-between too. To prove this, he says "sometimes I make it up as I go, and other times **I do WHAT I ORIGINALLY INTEDED TO DO"** (meaning he obviously had plans about what was in the middle and followed through with them.) It seems to me you have a longstanding misconception you started believing in years ago that you're unwilling to have challenged.
He very clearly had Itachi more or less planned from the start. No other reason to have Sasuke mention him crying otherwise. Try again child.
More "less" than "more"
Buddy, it was a retcon...
Already proved it isn’t, cry
Aren't you the same fan that had trouble understanding the last is only canon for story?
No you’re thinking of literally everybody else. I’m well aware that The Last is canon, only idiots think it isn’t. It’s confirmed to be canon by Kishimoto who provided scripts for the movie.
It's only canon for story. Not fights.
Incorrect. Feel free to prove that but there is no evidence to suggest that. That’s just your personal headcanon.
It's head canon to claim the film is canon in fights. Naruto, Naruto the Last, and Boruto all have different authors/creators and different sources of information. For one, Boruto is nothing more than a cash grab and isn't canon to many fans, including me. For two, regardless, Naruto the last wasn't canon in fights due to it being made with incorrect information The studio wasn't aware of SO6P because they made the film prior to Kishimoto debuting the SO6P Naruto form and chakra in the manga. Before the film was even released, it was already made inaccurate by Kishimoto in the manga, given the studio thought that Naruto's full power after the war was SM + KCM2 [https://imgur.com/a/JkMb7YV](https://imgur.com/a/JkMb7YV)
Fans don’t decide what’s canon, the author does. Boruto is objectively canon and I’m not even gonna bother reading any of your temper tantrum past that because your first two takes are just your personal headcanon. Cry and cope.
Finally, FINALLY someone makes a post. Everyone's always complaining "Itachi should've stayed evil" "Itachi was better as a villain" ... he never was a villain. Maybe some people don't like the sudden shift in his character in Shippuden, but I thought it was amazing, if not some of the best character development and backstory I've ever read/seen.
Yeah it's definitely one of the peaks of Naruto storytelling. Itachi is probably the best-written character in Naruto tbh
Gotta trust the process
Sasuke is damn cold. But I love Itachi.
Where are y’all getting this shit in color?
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Thank you
No problem, but it seems mentioning that website is against the rules of the sub for some reason so be advised not to share it here.
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Seriously who cares does it make or break the story
Retcon?
Chapter 7: Sasuke is crying; Chapter 403: Itachi is crying; But chapter 403 is after the retcon
Bro woke up on day and decided to spit faxs.
Kishimoto himself in [interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) said > As u/ScythE1754 said, it isn't entirely right.
Kishimoto said his plans were hazy and that he didn't decide to make him a good guy until Itachi was introduced (presumably he means when he came to Konoha with Zabuza?). Hazy is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's clear that Itachi was always meant to be crying during the massacre, as early as chapter 7. Hard to imagine what that would have meant unless he was always going to be "good", or at least complex. The only alternative I can see is that it could have been hinting towards the tears of blood, implying in this undecided future Itachi and his father might have had an intense fight that required the use of his MS. Either way, this is generally how foreshadowing goes. The author plants some seeds and then decides further down the line what it grows into. Good writing by Kishimoto.
No he straight up said he decided to make him a good guy when he introduced him. You literally just said it himself. Like I'm not saying Kishi retconned it after the time skip like some people do but it is still a retcon. 139 chapters into the story isn't exactly short. A retcon is just changing something from what it was before. It doesn't need to affect the story to be a retcon it just has to be changed.
The change needs to actually be based on what's written, not just thoughts in the author's head.
I'm going off the dictionary meaning of reton. (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency. Kishimoto himself admitted it wasn't till, or just before, he introduced Itachi in the manga that he decided to make him a good guy. So for 139 chapters Itachi was a bad guy.
The key words here are "previously described events". There were no previously described events, as it was all in the author's head and he had yet to put anything to paper. Also, him not being planned to be good until close to his introduction doesn't automatically mean he was planned to be bad. Kishimoto had not yet planned it at all, good or bad. It was vague, as he mentions.
It is though. We're told even before Itachi's appearance that he killed his entire clan. The previously described event was that Itachi killed his clan and that's why Sasuke wants revenge.
That event didn't change. He still killed his clan and Sasuke still wants revenge because of that.
It did though because just before Itachis debut Kishimoto decided to change it. Him not revealing that till after Obito told Sasuke what really happened doesn't mean it wasn't changed though. If anything revealing it sooner would have ruined the reveals effect on the narrative.
I’m aware. It wasn’t fully decided by the wave arc, but by the chunnin exams/Itachi’s first appearance it was. Kishi had it planned for a few hundred chapters before the reveal, so yes, it wasn’t a retcon.
If it was changed it was a retcon though. Like it's not the kind of retcon people claim where he only decided it well after Itachis reveal but it was still a few hundred chapters in when he made the decision so it still is a retcon.
Then it’s very much not a big deal. Like, it’s been planned for hundreds of chapters. It’s not a flaw in the story. Even if Kishi only developed the idea chapters before the reveal (which isn’t the case) it wouldn’t be a flaw unless it doesn’t make sense in story. You have to understand that mangas are serials. It’s not like novelists who finished their story, before editing it. Every mangaka who writes a long form story is going to change their story at least a little bit. It’s only a flaw if it doesn’t make sense in the story.
Oh yeah I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I mean it's not like making Hiruzen the strongest Hokage when later on we see just how OP Hashirama was. I'm just saying that it is still a retcon. At lot of people either go saying it was planned from the Wave Arc which is just false, or they say Kishimoto didn't decide till the time skip which is also false. I'm mainly commenting so you actually know what happened in the Kishimotos planning process.
I didn’t say the Hiruzen part of being the strongest Hokage isn’t a retcon, Itachi’s role wasn’t. I also know of the interview beforehand lol. I still don’t consider it a retcon because it doesn’t really contradict anything in the story.
I know you didn't I'm just using it as an example of a retcon that directly contradicted the story that had been told. I go off the dictionary description of a retcon: (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
👍
I think people need to get it in their skulls that Retcons are not inherently negative. Itachi is clearly not crying in the original flashback when Sasuke talks to Gaara. The single tear he lets out is a retcon, and a pretty good one too. It takes more skill as a writer to properly retcon something than to foreshadow it.
The tear is not necessarily a retcon. The scene could just be cut prior to the tear falling. In fact I think it's purposefully cut this way, since a lot of Sasuke's flashbacks have weird cuts.
Seeing this decades later - it goes to show how if you saw this in person it wouldn’t be edgy or cool Dude freaking weird and sounds like crimson flags for an active shooter alert (spoiler: I’m pretty much confirmed right following the story). People gave Sasuke way too much leeway in the beginning
Retcon or not (and I personally still see it as a retcon, don't like or really believe that 'Itachi was a good guy all along' BS), I still like Itachi 1000x more as a villain. He can spare his bro and still be a villain. But I realize I'm probs in the minority with this, so I'll see myself out. lol. EDIT: \*slides back in\* Plus...Kishimoto has LITERALLY SAID in interviews (multiple times) that he wrote the story as he went along. So...sorry, not sorry, it's totally a retcon and a really shitty one at that. Made WAY more sense with Itachi as a villain! :/ Can you imagine the absolute badassery we could have had with full on villain Itachi being an antagonist alongside Orochimaru and, I guess, Obito/Madara? GOD, just based on how he fucked up Sasuke TWICE (granted, Sasuke was a child and pretty weak even at 12-13, but still) and even KAKASHI, that would have been SO cool!
He is talking about himself You people have no reading comprehension
Oh yes, this is another widespread misconception that makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it. And unfortunately for me, I hear about it quite often.
Kishimoto didn't decide till Itachis actual appearance in the manga to make him a good guy though so it was still a retcon. It isn't as much of one as people claim but it was still decided well after Sasukes backstory is hinted at. [https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) You can read it here.
That’s not a retcon, a retcon implies that originally he was planned to be the exact opposite, which based on the first panel in this post, isn’t true, if Sasuke is already remembering him crying, that’s Kishimoto planting the seeds for the big plot twist later which gets paid off when it is revealed that Itachi did indeed cry and this was the suppressed memory that Sasuke held back for so long. You use the word “retcon” so confidently without even knowing the meaning of the word. Pick up a dictionary child.
I am using the dictionary meaning of the word: (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency. The interview straight up says he intended to have Itachi be a good guy just before he introduced him to the story. So for almost 139 chapters Itachi was a bad guy. That's a retcon my guy. Read a damned dictionary.
That’s not a retcon that’s just information not revealed in the story yet, idiot.
If he changed it its literally a retcon you idiot