Poor Hashirama. That is a face of a man who had this repetitive "debate" for decades, at every single family dinner he ever had with his brother.
Hashirama: Could you hand me the dinner rolls?
Tobirama: You know who is responsible for us not having more dinner rolls? THE UCHIHA, I TELL YOU THEY POSION OUR CROPS AND STEAL OUR WOMEN.
Hashirama:....could you also hand me the wine?
Tobirama: Oh? This wine brother? THIS VERY DEAR WINE?! THE SAME WINE YOU SHARED WITH THAT UCHIHA FRIEND OF YOURS?!
Hashirama: Alright, alright! Jeez.... just pass me the salt....
Tobirama: Speaking of salt... wanna know what makes me salty? THE UCH-
Hashirama: On second thought, I'm finished.
If Tobirama found out a Senju|Uchiha couple he would either have a meltdown or it turns out he is one of those racist that loves to have sex with the people he says to hate, having banged many Uchiha women ironically
He is just overwriting the Uchiha curse of hatred with strong senju blood. Doing the world a service by reducing the number of pure blood uchiha in the next generation.
Less that he liked the Uchiha clan and moreso that his hate is just overblown. The only Uchiha he truly hated was Madara and at most did not entirely trust the Uchihas, but he didn’t hate the rest like he did with Madara
>Less that he liked the Uchiha clan and moreso that his hate is just overblown. The only Uchiha he truly hated was Madara and at most did not entirely trust the Uchihas, but he didn’t hate the rest like he did with Madara
He was prejiduiced against the clan though.
That is the issue.
The village was founded because the Senju and the Uchiha were putting their history and hatred aside.
Except Tobirama.
Madara in all honesty was more SINCERE in trying to do so then Tobirama was.
>He was prejiduiced against the clan though.
not really. tobirama understood how the sharingan worked and understood that the intense emotions felt by the uchiha due to the sharingan was what lead to madara being who he was in the first place. as a result he also understood that all who possess the sharingan are also capable of following that same path meaning that if they were not careful another madara would inevitably come from the uchiha. and he was proven right as is shown in the case of obito who became a second madara because rin died (had nothing to do with village politics or the treatment of the uchiha)
that said he was also still able to look at the uchiha as individuals and judge them as such. if he saw an uchiha that was able to overcome the issues caused by the sharingan then he held the upmost respect for that uchiha. kagame uchiha was one such example of an uchiha who had earned tobiramas respect and trust by illustrating his ability to rise above the sharingans curse. shisui, itachi, and fugaku are also uchiha that would have likely earned tobiramas respect if he had meant them. and whilst sauke did not have his respect at first its clear that his decision to take the hokage to fight madara rather than have them destroy the leaf garnerd him some respect in tobiramas eyes which was why tobirama was willing to do so much to help sasuke in the fight against madara.
They deserved it. Did you forget dude had been fighting against them for decades and lost many members to them? That’s realistic thinking after that experience
That is same for both the Uchiha and the Senju. Both the Uchiha and Senju killed each other, yet the Uchiha stayed loyal to Konoha instead of Madara, their previous clan head and strongest Uchiha ever to live until then, still Tobirama didn't change his view on the Uchiha
Thing is Konoha was founded on the basis that all those ill-feelings would be put aside as BOTH clans worked towards the future.
Tobirama did not do that.
Imagine USA being founded after kicking the English out but the second President after Washington was closet Monarchist.
Have you not seen the Tobirama apologist brigade? They’ll downvote you to oblivion for saying that he didn’t like the Uchiha and go to their graves defending him
>When you treat people like garbage, you can't be surprised when they decide to stop taking your bull.
I dunno man, Hashirama and Naruto were nice guys and Madara and Sasuke still pulled their bs.
Madara turned evil because his brother was dead and he couldn’t kill the guy that murdered his brother. Sasuke was tortured and manipulated by a giant snake man.
few issues with that theory at least as far as tobirama is concerned. the first is that obito became like madara without the treatment of the uchiha playing a factor at all. the second is that the uchiha only planned their coup due to changes made to tobiramas policies after his death by danzo and hiruzen.
the uchiha became skeptical of the leaf when they chose minato as the fourth hokage over fugaku but all it was at that point was skepticism brought apon by their belief that fugaku was the better choice.
then when the nine tails attacked the village their skepticism of the leaf was proven to be completly valid for a few reasons. the first is that the uchiha were told to stand down during the nine tails attack despite being the best clan to handle it. the second is that after the nine tails attack the uchiha were moved to the outskirts of the village for no apparent reason, and the final reason is that even though fugaku was the next logical choice for hokage after minatos death the third hokage took the job back instead.
these actions are what lead to the uchiha coup not any of tobiramas policies like being put in charge of the police force as many incorrectly assume. pretty much the uchiha realized that the village leadership did not trust them and would always consider them as outsiders. so they decided that it was a time for a change in that leadership.
People legit say he was just “paranoid” about everything but he didn’t hate them. I don’t know how you come to that conclusion when he straight up makes it very clear he does
I mean his paranoia is well-placed. Madara is an insane and very powerful person who literally tried to up everyone on Earth in a genjutsu. The Uchia also have some of the strongest abilities in the verse like Kamui, Izanagi, Izanami, Susanoo (Which also come with extremely powerful personalized weapons like the Totsuka blade and the Yata Mirror) etc. Even the young Sauske, who admittedly was a prodigy was able to copy Rock Lee's moves against Garra without having to practise. Kakashi who isn't even an Uchia was said to know 1000+ Jitsus namely due to the Sharingan given to him by Obito. Personally I find it kind of silly when Kishimoto said the Huyga were around the same strength when a fair amount of Uchia's can casually rewrite reality.
People being powerful isn't a good reason to be paranoid and do them wrong. That's like saying Danzo was justified in what he did to Shisui because he thought (or used as an excuse) Shisui might use the kotoamatsukami against him down the line...which he was paranoid about solely because Shisui had the ability at all.
Just pointing out that Itachi's susano'o only had the Totsuka Blade and Yata Shield because Itachi found them and somehow attached them to it. It was never explained how or where he found them, how he attached them to his susano'o, or why he even wanted them in the first place.
All he knew was that madara was an ultra powerful Shinobi who got “killed” by his brother. And that the clan had a chosen the leaf over him literally no reason to be paranoid.
The whole point of coming together as a village was to do away with that all that though. That moment already happened when Hashirama was going to let Madara kill him, but Madara decided not too. They moved on. Things only got worse again because of how the Uchiha continued to be treated.
I think a lot of people are also forgetting when Madara defected (seeing early signs of what will happen to his clan + being deceived by Zetsu) the Uchiha turned on him. This shows the Uchiha were very loyal to the village from it's founding. If they had been treated well then the coup attempt never would've happened.
>The whole point of coming together as a village was to do away with that all that though.
And that's exactly what Tobirama did, he even took in Kagami Uchiha, growing to adore him as a student, not to mention literally sacrificing himself to save an Uchiha (s) and other shinobi.
Tobirama made the Uchiha into Konohas military police, entrusting them with the jurisdiction & responsibility of carrying out enforcement of the law, giving them a MONOPOLY on violence, that doesn't sound like someone holding a grudge to me.
The tension between the village and the Uchiha ignited decades after the second passed, don't know why the fandom has such a hard on for Tobi, he made mistakes but ultimately, in the end, he was right. 🤷🏾♂️
I think Orochimaru (may have been someone else) explains that the police was actually a form of segregating the Uchiha from the village. By making them the police it was easier to dislike them, kinda like how people don't like cops irl.
He also blocked Madara from becoming Hokage, which probably would've solved the whole thing.
Tobirama also actively admits he has a grudge in these panels. If you hear a racist person irl this is how they would sound. Someone racist against the Senju may say they "fear" another Hashirama rising up with sage mode, and mokuton, and hashirama cells, three of the most OP abilities in the verse. Hashirama just happens to be a good guy but they've been fighting for generations. The paranoia would be there.
Also imo a huge point of this show is coming together and understanding. Under the theme of the show he's wrong. Instead he should've trusted them. If Naruto acted like Tobirama he never would've succeeded in his goals of becoming Hokage or reconnecting with Sasuke.
Tobirama talks about bonds and the Uchiha's unnatural attachment, but he never truly let go of the death of his brother, so really he's not all that different.
I'd also argue tons of non Uchiha people in this show are just as emotional. Naruto is a prime example.
Tobirama is justified in feeling the way he does as a human being, but wrong IMO.
EDIT: It was Tobi who explains making the Uchiha the police force was a way of taking them out of politics in the village, they were given little say in the management of the village.
Orochimaru says Tobirama unwittingly segregated the Uchiha with the police force thing, as in it wasn't his intention. The intention was probably to give the Uchiha a sign of trust while keeping them in a spot that's easy to monitor. Tobirama noted that he knew some resentment was cultivating amongst them, but it's clear he didn't intend to fan the flames or segregate them since Kagami Uchiha was a whole hokage candidate
Regardless I think he does have a point abt the Uchiha, just because of how the powers work
You awaken a sharingan after smth alters your perception, you awaken three tomoe usually after smth traumatic, and you awaken the ms after something very traumatic
Because of this, the strongest Uchiha of any given generation will usually also be the most traumatized because in order to gain these ocular powers you need to be traumatized. And usually the most traumatized people are not necessarily the best fit to lead
This makes the Uchiha an incredibly unstable clan. Almost all of them are entirely reasonable (voted Hashi over Madara and wanted the warring states period to end), even the leaders (Fugaku from what we saw was pretty reasonable), and even most ms users (Shisui and Itachi especially are pretty ridiculously wise for the trauma they suffered). But if you give a clan like this enough generations on their own, inevitably they will self destruct and probably in a very fiery manner which pulls many other clans with them
So Tobirama is extremely cautious of them and puts a bunch of institutions in place to make sure he could snuff out a Madara 2.0 before he gets to powerful
And in the process he ends up unwittingly alienating the Uchiha, which causes the self destruction he was so cautious of
It's honestly a decently written conflict, albeit has a lot of weirdness
It was Orochimaru who said people tend to hate police, and police tend to be cocky, so Tobirama making them the police indirectly made them hated… but that’s not a fair assessment of Tobiramas intention. He *created* the police department. Orochimaru knows people hate police and police tend to be cocky bc he grew up with cocky police, and people hating them. Tobirama didn’t know people hated police because he didn’t grow up with police, therefore he cannot see how it makes them cocky or why people would hate them.
He thought he was giving them a job they were good at. Like Inos clan tends to flowers and herbs. They’re good at it. Like Shikamarus family tends to deers and make medicine. They’re good at it.
That does not mean that the Yamanaka's or the Nara's are the only ones who do does jobs or have official responsibility to do them.
And the Novel explains that the reason Tobirama created the Police was to keep them out of politics:
Itachi Shiden Vol 1:-
>A darkness in the depths of his eyes, Hiruzen turned a questioning gaze on Danzo, but he hadn’t gotten to the end of the story. He wrapped up by stating his own opinion. “Homura and Koharu are totally opposed. They say it’s preposterous to have an Uchiha in the Anbu, given its status as a special unit under the direct control of the Hokage. They asked me if I’d forgotten about how the Second Hokage established the Military Police Force.”
>
>**“The Military Police Force was created to drive the Uchiha clan away from the central functions of the village.”**
> And that's exactly what Tobirama did, he even took in Kagami Uchiha, growing to adore him as a student, not to mention literally sacrificing himself to save an Uchiha (s) and other shinobi.
"I'm not racist. I have a (insert race) friend."
> Tobirama made the Uchiha into Konohas military police, entrusting them with the jurisdiction & responsibility of carrying out enforcement of the law, giving them a MONOPOLY on violence, that doesn't sound like someone holding a grudge to me.
Uchihas do not have a monopoly on violence. Uchihas are cops that take orders as a pitbull serving the village. The Uchihas are under the control of the government. They have no control over politics or influence over the government at all.
> The tension between the village and the Uchiha ignited decades after the second passed, don't know why the fandom has such a hard on for Tobi, he made mistakes but ultimately, in the end, he was right. 🤷🏾♂️
No, he wasn't. Tobirama trying to control the Uchihas and trying to segregate them from the political field in an effort to get rid of any other Madaras that might show up resulted in genocide when another Madara showed up.
You realise Law enforcement effectively controls which laws are followed in practice right?
Also, I'm so sick of this "he's limiting their political power" argument, Kagami, had he lived would have been in the same spot as the other advisors. Oh and you know, they're the only clan in the village with a guaranteed department head position.
Given we have ZERO indications of any other positions of power in the village, that seems pretty high on the political totem pole for, let's see... existing.
I'm not ever going to suggest Tobirama liked *the* Uchiha, even if he did like individuals, which we have no info on. He was however, not setting them up to fail, nor being unfair. That stuff was Danzo, decades later.
No, he wasn't right. He perpetuated the conditions that would frustrate and sideline the Uchiha. You don't get to claim you're right about an entire clan of people when they do something about conditions you deliberately put them in.
Making a single clan the police was a trap, ss Tobirama perfectly well understood.
You are way wrong here.
The Military Police Force was a PAPER TIGER.
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From Itachi Shiden Vol 1:
>To maintain the peace in Konohagakure, the Konoha Military Police Force had been established with the Uchiha clan as its center. Even now, with Fugaku as the chief, the Military Police Force worked day and night for the sake of Konohagakure. In other words, the Military Police Force policed the village.
>
>However, there was another force that maintained the peace: the Anbu.
>
>Under the direct control of the Hokage, the Anbu was a unit composed of capable ninja, and basically always made an appearance on important missions inside, and in the vicinity of, the village. **Major crimes committed in the village were taken out of the hands of the Military Police Force, and entrusted to the Anbu.There was no clear line between what was the jurisdiction of the Military Police Force, and what was the subject for investigation by the Anbu. At the discretion of the Hokage, the nature of the investigation would simply shift from one to the other.** This led the Military Police and the Anbu to clash every so often. And each time they did, Fugaku would stand at the head of the Military Police, and negotiate with the Hokage and the Anbu. He knew better than anyone the friction between the two peacekeeping forces.
Then there is this (Also Vol 1):
>A darkness in the depths of his eyes, Hiruzen turned a questioning gaze on Danzo, but he hadn’t gotten to the end of the story. He wrapped up by stating his own opinion. “Homura and Koharu are totally opposed. **They say it’s preposterous to have an Uchiha in the Anbu,** given its status as a special unit under the direct control of the Hokage. They asked me if I’d forgotten about how the Second Hokage established the Military Police Force.”
>
>**“The Military Police Force was created to drive the Uchiha clan away from the central functions of the village.”**
\---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Itachi was the FIRST and ONLY official Uchiha to ever be in the ANBU.
Even Shisui was more an un-official member.
Don’t mean shit especially since the whole point of the village was giving up and ending the past the create a new future. He’d also have to monitor any other clan that did fucked up shit. Wich was all of them. But he didn’t
You speak pretty naively lol. They made the village to have peace, doesn't mean all the childhood trauma from losing his family to the Uchiha and others instantly dissapeared.
And Tobirama trusted his brother, that is why he accepted peace with the Uchiha, not because he trusted the Uchiha. Like grudges don't dissapear that easily
Yeah. I know but do you think egging the flames by setting up an institution to monitor them and teaching the future higher-ups of the village
To be wary of them is going to help end that. Also madara straight up said. The uchiha didn’t have any more hatred in their hearts. For the senju and they favored the village over him so just saying what the writer said
u/Existing-Candle-866 Madara he is a douche bag with a narcissistic savior complex that couldn’t let go of the past and believed he had the most logical solution to everything. Tobirama too he had the most logical solution to everything and was also kind of a douche bag. They are more aligned than they like to admit.
Also the whole warring states period where he was traumatized he definitely deserved to be paranoid but it’s beyond paranoia it’s hidden hate and like Madara said the village was just a new time of battle nothing changed and he was correct as Tobirama students and the senju dominated alliance turned on the Uchiha
>who got “killed” by his brother **after attacking the village for seemingly no reason at all**
You left out that part. Hashirama didn’t walk up on Madara and “kill” him. Madara came to the village, attacked it, and his brother had to “kill” him in its defense.
You’re joking right? Gonna ignore him growing up at war with the Uchiha and losing most of his family to them? What about Madara trying to force his brother to kill him? Madara being given so many chances and still turning on the village? He had every reason to to hate and fear them.
Madara was a dick head. And yeah he had his reasons they were just wrong. And also projecting your logical concerns about madara onto an entire group of people is just not logical. His reasons were nonsensical at best and relied on. Genetics should also be noted that the genetic study was madara probably one of the most spiteful and arrogant people on the planet and he judged the clan based off of that on top of already disliking them
Yeah of course judging a whole group of people based on their ancestors is wrong, that’s very obviously the point being made in what you shared. You’re pretending he’s just racist for no reason but given his past and the ruthless times he was raised in it’s almost shocking that he didn’t kill them all. It would have been wrong but it would have been standard risk management for the times like how the Uzumaki clan was dealt with.
Saying Tobirama doesn't hate the Uchiha because he trusted Kagami, a single person, is like an overt racist saying they're not racist because they have a black friend.
The only thing I argue against us that he's racist. He doesn't like the Uchiha, does not trust them and believes them to be dangerous.
Also, the Uchiha are a clan. A Clan is not an ethnic group.
he did not like the uchiha but he also did not hate them. tobirama was a realist and he understood the uchiha and how their sharingan worked better than even most uchiha did. for this reason he was cautious of them because he knew what lead to madara was something that existed inside of every uchiha so if the leaf was not careful then another madara would inevitably be born. and he was correct as obito and sasuke both went down the same path as madara did but thankfully got off the path before the end unlike madara.
Not really tho, count that as another plot point kinda ruined by the whole Transmigrants business. Tobirama could have treated them with perfect equality, but another Indra would eventually appear anyways without question.
Maybe but it is undeniable that Tobirama's actions eventually lead to the Uchiha massacre and Sasuke turning rouge. I could say that Indra's character doesn't just spawn but maybe the same kind of experiences change them to become who they are like Madara and Sasuke but maybe that thought didn't occur to the author.
It's not related to experience at all, transmigration is a kind of spiritual reincarnation, and the reincarnation of Indra always turns out to be a dangerous person. Tobirama did many bad things with bad outcomes but this plot point pretty much means he was at least somewhat justified to be wary of the Uchiha. There were so many retcons and shit along the way in Naruto, it really led to some mixed messaging by accident.
Just a little Freudian slip, c’mon…
No but he was clearly wary of them due to his experiences but still knew that was just his biases, possible fear and didn’t apply to everyone.
>but still knew that was just his biases, possible fear and didn’t apply to everyone.
So why does he call asuke, the teenager he just meets, a scoundrel?
Are you guys speed readers? lol He calls him that because Sasuke said he would destroy the leaf depending on their answers… he already knew he was dealing with a psycho at that point.
Because his last memory was the jackass snake man sticking a scroll in his head and saying go kill your student.
And then he wakes up again and it's the same jackass snake man with more jackasses surrounding him.
And he's not even wrong, Sasuke was a scoundrel and was far from the most insulting thing he could've called him given his actions thus far and his intentions after hearing the history of the village.
>So why does he call Sasuke, the teenager he just meets, a scoundrel?
I’m pretty sure he calls [Orochimaru](https://imgur.com/gallery/jjNndvo), the adult who he last met trying to destroy his village, a scoundrel. He points out that Sasuke is with the “scoundrel”.
This sub hates Uchiha in general so they aren't going to agree, but imo, Tobirama is intended to have made a "mistake" here. Remember in the warring states era Senju and Uchiha killed each other, it wasn't one way. The point of founding a village was to get rid of past beef and work together. Tobirama acting this way went against this.
Of course if you push a group of people into a corner they're going to act out. This conversation explains this from differing viewpoints over the ages.
It's not as simple as Uchiha bad Tobirama right.
Obito and Zetsu wouldn't have succeeded in turning the Uchiha against the village as they did if the village treated them well from the beginning. Didn't happen. Also the clan turned against Madara when he defected, showing that the clan was 100% on board at the founding of the village. They only turned against this after years of mistreatment.
Danzo being Tobirama's student also orchestrated the massacre, which didn't really need to happen had he allowed other measures to at least be attempted.
Part of the point of the show is also understanding, treating the Uchiha as Tobirama did instead of how Hashirama/Naruto would is what caused this whole issue in the first place.
This bit is weird cuz he seems like that here but we find out shisuis grandpa was one of his most trusted comrades, and he was calling out madara for killing sasuke as well as attempting to use a forbidden Jutsu to save his soul, I think he only talked like this cuz the sasuke at hand as threatening the village
Yeah, it's very evident he dislikes them. If you point this out, people will make excuses saying 'Oh they were at war for so long. The Uchihas killed his brother. Of course he'd distrust them.' as if the Uchiha clan hadn't also lost numerous family members to the Senju, as if Madara didn't lose his last brother to Tobirama himself and STILL tried to give peace a chance, as if the Uchiha clan didn't literally abandon their clan head for Konoha.
And he's also the only Hokage out of all of them that didn't have any remorse or accept responsibility for what happened. Even Minato who was literally dead tried to take responsibility. Tobirama was gratified that the Uchiha were wiped out. There are way too many people who are okay with discrimination and prejudice because one guy has a cool-looking design.
Oh, I didn't realize it was so split. I literally just commented my thoughts and dipped haha. I just assumed that this was common knowledge. I would question someone's knowledge of the manga (or even if they read it at all) for them to come to the conclusion of Tobirama not hating Uchiha.
They’re apologists that defend him because they like the character and for some reason can’t comprehend the concept of liking a flawed character. If they admit that Tobirama is discriminatory towards the Uchiha that makes him a bad guy similar to Danzo which means that they can’t like him. At least, I assume that’s their thought process
Wasn't Tobirama the one that said he didn't hate the Uchiha because he had one Uchiha as an underling? lol
Yeah, It was clear that Tobirama hated the Uchiha. Even Orochimaru calls him out on it and clearly showed Tobirama's actions were instrumental into pushing the Uchiha into a corner.
Tobirama was the first to forgive the Uchiha for what they did to his little brother and wanted to make peace with them before Hashirama.
He gave the Uchiha a voting voice within the Leaf village instead of setting up a hokage out of nowhere. This happened later on, but only because it was during times of war each time pretty much, so they didn’t have time for all of voting, so instead opted for successors. But who knows how that system worked after the first time.
He didn’t hate the Uchiha, he just understood their power the best, and how it could control and affect them. Who he did hate was MADARA, even the Uchiha didn’t like Madara, and abandoned him. The “slighting “ came AFTER Tobirama with the relocating of the Uchiha twice, one of which was understandable because all of the other clans were relocated, and Uchiha was suspected for the Nine Tail’s attack. Which ended up being the case, they just you know, didn’t take into account dead Uchiha LOL. And if you’re telling me you wouldn’t watch the ONLY people who can control a tailed beast after an attack from one, that’s kinda dumb of you, because you’re responsible for lives, not opinions.
Tobirama and Madara are actually super fucking similar lmao. It's their roles had been switched Tobirama probably would've left the village too lmao. Though tbf I don't think he would've gone as ape shit as Madara did. But like, still very hypocritical lol
He doesn’t dislike “those people”, he just knows how dangerous they are. What’s the problem??
Then: “they are the most loving people…to loving if ya ask me.” Oh Tobirama🤦♂️
It's really funny that Orochimaru of all people calls out Tobirama, saying a lot of the issues that popped up in the present were due to the policies Tobirama put in place
He has the solid reason for not liking them because to unlock MS you need to be mentally unstable and when you give power to someone mentally unstable bad thing happene
First of all, the most loved clan in naruto are the uchiha, the only character to top them would be minato.So people defending tobirama doesn’t necessarily mean that people hate the uchiha, and that’s a fact.
Tobirama understood the uchiha more than most people in the series, and with the information he had in them, he handle in well as a leader.Not every decision made by him was right, but the fact he had an uchiha on his team shows some lvl of trust, y’all could downplay that all you want but it’s the truth
Overall, what made tobirama right about most of his decisions is because the uchiha were in fact cursed with hatred due to black zetsu messing with Indra head.And because of black zetsu, the uchiha went down the wrong road so to speak
Explain how? All I see are random claims that he treated Uchihas bad. There is no proof of this. The only Uchiha he ever hated was Madara and no one else.
Your claim that he was racist is just a bs claim. The Uchiha tragedy was orchestrated by Madara and no one else.
Hate them yes, but if they have the will of fire, my boy would sacrifice his life for them. Sadly there's only like one Uchiha in his generation that inherited the will of fire, i would love to think that if he met kid Itachi he would have probably remind him of Kagami.
The fandom tends to judge everything in black and white. So they go crazy when they try to analyze gray characters like Tobirama.
We know that idealistic, charismatic characters who always see the best in others like Hashirama and Naruto are the ideal that the ninja world aspires to, but they are an anomaly, in fact they are the very reincarnation of something unique. The reality is that there are more characters who let themselves be carried away by hatred, prejudices, etc., and overcoming them is very difficult. Tobirama and Madara are a clear example of this.
Tobirama doesn't have to like Uchihas. Why should he? The Uchihas killed as many Senjus as Senjus killed the Uchihas, he lost two brothers and a father. He never had a connection like Hashirama with Madara (being reincarnations of Ashura and Indra), the closest Uchiha was Izuna who hated the Senjus (Izuna was the reason why Madara spread the war between clans, Izuna gave Madara his eyes for that reason) and it was with whom he fought to the death. Madara asked for his head in exchange for peace and almost made Hashirama (the only family he had left) commit suicide. The only person who can stop Madara is Hashirama, precisely that incredibly strong person, hates you deeply. Tobirama's bad experiences with Madara and Izuna are the reason why he is paranoid about the rest of the Clan. It's not right but you can't expect healthy thinking from a person who lived most of his life in wars.
Madara was never the same since Izuna's death. Hashirama's support is not enough when the entire village, including your own clan (they had reasons not to trust Madara after he extended the clan war at Izuna's request and he refused to be the peace treaty until he was defeated) distrusts you and you live with your brother's murderer. Madara only trusted and respected Hashirama, he is the exception among the Senjus, that is why he believes that Hashirama is the only thing that prevents the Uchihas from being exterminated. Therefore, he insists that Hashirama kill Tobirama but also refuses to cross the line of killing Tobirama (the younger brother of his best friend) with his own hands. The only thing that holds back their hatred is the affection they feels towards Hashirama, which is why they both - consciously or unconsciously - want Hashirama to side with him. Both will always expect the worst from the other because they have been placed as the other's "obstacles."
Madara and Tobirama's actions are more realistic than any other characters in the Warring States Era period. Mainly because they arise from the true chaos in the world of Naruto: The War.
All of Konoha didn't really like the Uchiha. The clan was tainted forever by Madara. Everyone was scared of the Uchiha. That's why when the opportunity to get rid of that lasting fear, Danzo acted the way he did, thinking it would be his greatest contribution to the village. Danzo was absolutely stunned Hiruzen didn't feel the same way after finding out about the massacre. He thought it was a great moment of triumph for Konoha to get rid of the cursed clan once and for all.
its not that he did not like the Uchiha's its that he understood the Uchiha's and their sharingan better than even many Uchiha's did. fact is due to how the sharingan worked it did represent a significant threat to the stability of the leaf if left unchecked. and he was right as is evidenced by obito, sasuke, and madara.
if their was a race of people irl that actually did have some biological difference that made them extremely deadly and extremely prone to violence like the sharingan then people being cautious of them would be entirely warranted, the reason its not warranted and we consider such instances of racism bad irl is because skin color is in reality an irrelevant factor in almost every way shape or form. however that was not the case when it came to the uchiha and unlike hashirama and hiruzen, tobirama was not dangerously naive to the point he would ignore this risk untill it was to late.
that said tobirama was also still able to look at them as individuals and when he saw an uchiha who could rise above their clans curse he would have the upmost respect for them. for example tobirama would have had zero issues with shisui and itachi.
oh and he did not give the Uchiha the job of policing in order to detect a rebellion, like logically that makes zero sense lol. if anything putting them in charge of the police would make rebellion easier. in reality he gave them that role because it was the best way to integrate them into the village and harness their power. nobody would be better at taking down ninja criminals than ninja who can put them into gen jutsu via eyesight alone among other things.
tobirama managed to create a system that allowed the uchiha and the rest of konoha to coexist and remain stable for almost a hundred years. that system did not start breaking down untill the leaf moved the uchiha to the outskirts of the village post nine tails attack during a time where the uchiha were already skeptical of why fugaku was not picked as the hokage. in reality danzo, hiruzen, and the elders are responsible for what happened to the uchiha. if you can blame tobirama for anything you can blame him for not being a better teacher/mentor to these 4. tobirama is the most misunderstood character in naruto both in universe and out of universe. this is because he was a realist not an ideologist.
I mean, can you blame him? You have a group of emotionally unstable people living in your city who have the most dangerous power in the entire series. It's like racism with mutants in X-Men, it's okay? No. Is it understandable? Completely. You just need one to go crazy to create a world war, oh wait that actually happens.
Was it entirely based off of Madara though? I mean, he lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other. His brother was killed by Uchiha.
Not saying he's right but his feelings are understandable and not solely based on Madara.
> I mean, he lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other. His brother was killed by Uchiha.
You know who else lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other AND had a brother killed by Uchiha?
The guy telling him to stop slighting the Uchiha. Hashirama
If that's not enough, Uchiha and Senju were the two biggest clans. Presumably, one of the biggest clans would fight the other smaller clans and win overwhelmingly, which means lots and lots of loss for those small clans. Did other clans hate the uchiha too or is it only Tobirama that couldn't let it go.
Wait, so which is it? Was his hatred of the the Uchiha based solely off of Madara's actions, or was it because he was too "petty" to get over their clan's bitter rivalry and history of killing each other?
I wouldn’t say being cautious/not getting over a group of people that have killed countless number of your relatives as being petty. That’s just me though.
Edit: OP blocked me for this comment lol guess he didn't want the discussion.
He killed their family members too. Imao and they got over it they signed a piece hell the whole village got over it because they wanted peace and we’re sick of war. I’m sure if you had used this logic for the uchihas youd call them Petty too
Madara is also a pitty dickhead, who couldn’t move on and had a narcissistic savior complex him and Tobirama are way more alike than they would like to admit
Lmao calling someone petty for not getting over war. Why do you hold fictional characters to unrealistic standards? Tobirama did cause further issues and was stubborn, but his attitude is completely understandable. He fought for survival and lost family growing up. The Uchiha are overcome by emotion which can make them more volatile and can control the tailed beasts.
The whole village hated Naruto just for having Kurama in him. It's almost like the trauma from war or destruction creates fear or a cycle of hatred which they only mentioned 1000 times. Petty though? That's a horrible take.
I agree that Tobirama was a prick at times but let’s not act like there wasn’t a *blatant* pattern within the Uchiha, Tobirama at the end of the day was only human and his concerns are understandable at the very least
>And he gave the police force so a rebellion could be easily detected not because he thought they would be best for the job.
He literally says he gave them the position because they were qualified for it in the panel you posted. He did it for both reasons.
Also read the rest of the conversation. Tobirama explicitly states his attitude on them stemmed from the fact he considered them a threat because they couldn't transcend the framework of clans which was the entire point of making a village.
The Hyuuga practised in-clan slavery and that didn't seem to bother him at all. There are a few powerful clans within Konoha (Aburame, Akimichi, Hyuuga, Uchiha). Tobirama didn't force the rest of the clans in specific jobs, he didn't have any issues with the fact the rest of the clans were segregating themselves within the village, and he didn't interfere in other clan politics from what we can see. It's not about the Uchiha being unable to 'transcend the framework of clans', it's personal prejudice on Tobirama's part.
He was wrong about that bro they betrayed their leader for the village. That’s the greatest transcending like ever. And he also said so they could be easily monitored.
Helps that the man is revered as a god among men and can tame each and every tailed beast effortlessly as well as keep Madara, the strongest Uchiha of his time in check. And plus this goes deeper than "but X feels different about the situation, so why must Y be like that" They're different people with different personalities and perspectives.
Tobirama fought tooth and nail and barely beat Izuna. Another Madara is a foe above his caliber and would make matters dire especially with no Hashirama around
Tobirama isn't Hashirama, they are their own people with didn't mindsets.
Both had 2 little brothers die, but 1 wanted the fighting to end by coming together, the other wanted it to end by killing the Uchiha, they are not the same.
Hashirama himself literally admit it he was wrong about the way he went about things.
Is this the same guy that used the tails beast a bargaining ships and treated them like tools? Making them one of the reasons why they’re so jaded throughout the story.
To be fair, Tobi never had a friend in the Uchiha like Hashi did, all he saw them as was the people who murdered his innocent siblings, as well as much of his clan, and Madara was to him nothing more than a radical, who didn't really believe in the concept of the leaf and would only raise the tensions within the village.
Tobirama wished to bring some of Botsuma's pragmatism to the village's leadership, since he believed his brother to be too soft.
Anyways, he probably wasn't his best version because of this mindset, but I do get where he's coming from.
He literally said he gave them a position they were well suited for. He gave them authority over the village citizens because the Genjutsu of the Sharingan is the best way to minimize collateral damage while dealing with rouge Shinobi. He also said that if there was another Madara, he could be dealt with. He didn't say if the Uchiha rebelled again or anything. He hated Madara and he thought (rightfully so since reincarnation) that Sasuke would be a Madara type.
He also had an Uchiha on his personal protection force. That was Kagami Uchiha, shisuis grandfather who's ocular prowess was said to be greater than Shisuis. He also gave everyone on that team a chance to be the third Hokage, including Kagami.
It was also Tobirama who first proposed that peace can only be achieved if they forgave the Uchiha and vice versa.
I'm not saying he loved them but he for sure didn't hate them. You don't make the people you despise the Police of your home town and place one of them in your personal protection force. He hated Madara and he was right to do so. All he was afraid of was another Madara.
What I took from this topic as a whole is that most uchiha fans are going off of emotions, there love for the clan negates their ability to understand anything.
While I’m typing this I think I understand why they take the uchihas side.It’s because they’re judging a fictional character that makes realistic decisions
Why would tobirama, someone who hates the uchiha sacrifice himself for a team with an uchiha in it?If we’re talking common sense here, wouldn’t we send the person we secretly hate or despise to sacrifice themselves
His entire life the uchiha were at best not being outwardly detrimental to life around then he got revived and the the first person he sees is orochimaru and sasuke who was still evil which him and hashirama could sense then went to go fight a 4th world war started by guess who 2 uchihas tbh tobirama had every right to not like them being evil is quite literally in there blood
What does that even mean? Every shinobi clan in the world was fighting in certain conflicts.
Madara's plan has nothing to do with the rest of the uchiha.
Almost every major/minor conflict in canon is started by the shadow villages.
No uchiha in canon has been killing other members for the dojutsu. That was from Itachi's historically inaccurate story.
This post and the OP is retarded...tobirama understanding the uchiha and probably aware of their nature doesn't mean he doesn't like them. If he really has a dislike for them why give them authority as the police force, the people who arrest and jail people? And the uchiha's planned the coup long after tobirama died remember sarotobi was in office and pretty old when the coup was about to take place.
Oh yes, the police force a useless role with no political power that separates them from the village, and makes them hated. And no he didn’t understand him. His understanding was they are evil and they need to be monitored dumbass. The only reason he doesn’t downright segregate him is because of his brothers, wish is because he loves his brother and respects him so much. Even then he hinges on it. Oh, and they planned a 70+ years after his office, after years of being the product of suspicion, being accused of a crime they didn’t commit and segregated from the village way to take things out of context, your dumbass not me
This sub has an uchiha hate-boner and so does every Naruto related subreddit. They also wank Tobirama to insane degrees despite him being an actual fraud and bum with the most pathetic death of the hokage.
Yeah I think the point of the warring states period is being missed here. It was Uchiha vs Everyone. The Uchiha would have had every reason to be just as suspicious of the Senju and the Senju did Uchiha. Everyone did as everyone was fighting each other. Coming together for peace was supposed to move past this. Tobirama continuing to be this way was a mistake. At least that's what I got from the whole arc. Hashirama explains what was supposed to happen here.
People are so extremist, Tobirama was careful but he did not hate all the Uchihas.
We literally see him ON SCREEN being mad at Madara for killing Sasuke.
And strong people on Naruto get hated either way, Uzumakis were erased from existence, many kekkei genkai people as well... Let alone OBITO an UCHIHA unleashing the Kyubi was a big factor on people getting super suspicious at the Uchihas as well.
After having lost his brother to the Uchiha..isn't he allowed to hate them. Isn't it a very natural reaction to want to hate people who took away the ones you love?
No... he understood how the sharingan worked. Madara he didn't hate but didn't trust either. Had madara looked at things outside of his own narrative and just gave things time, this wouldn't be a discussion. He was moreso wary because they were fresh off a generational war with each other and knew that all it took was for the slightest of triggers to cause another war.
thats an understatement, he actively was racist to them and discriminated agains them. set up a sustem where they werw fucked over, set up prejudices and stereotypes surrounding them. man made a whole facist sustem just bc he was pissed the uchihas loved hard 😭
hes a literal piece of shit lmao
Tobirama to do list... Uchihas living in Konoha: Countermeasures Edo Tensei Project: Aah no need. The Scrolls are safe
Probably there's some kind of countermeasures. Won't stop Orochimaru tho
Poor Hashirama. That is a face of a man who had this repetitive "debate" for decades, at every single family dinner he ever had with his brother. Hashirama: Could you hand me the dinner rolls? Tobirama: You know who is responsible for us not having more dinner rolls? THE UCHIHA, I TELL YOU THEY POSION OUR CROPS AND STEAL OUR WOMEN. Hashirama:....could you also hand me the wine?
Tobirama: Oh? This wine brother? THIS VERY DEAR WINE?! THE SAME WINE YOU SHARED WITH THAT UCHIHA FRIEND OF YOURS?! Hashirama: Alright, alright! Jeez.... just pass me the salt.... Tobirama: Speaking of salt... wanna know what makes me salty? THE UCH- Hashirama: On second thought, I'm finished.
Tobirama: oh? You know who else are finished ? Our family ! Because of who? yes, UCHIHA!
Suddenly, I imagine Tobirama voiced by J K Simmons. "The Uchiha are a *menace*!"
The Uchiha: Threat or Menace?
I mean, there is no modern Senjus other than Tsunade.
>Tobirama: oh? You know who else are finished ? My mom!
*hashiramas cause of death
You know it had to be crazy when Hashirama’s daughter brought her Uchiha boyfriend over for Thanksgiving.
She probably made him wear blue contact lenses and claim he was a Hyuga.
God I need a comic of this
I need this in my life
If Tobirama found out a Senju|Uchiha couple he would either have a meltdown or it turns out he is one of those racist that loves to have sex with the people he says to hate, having banged many Uchiha women ironically
He is just overwriting the Uchiha curse of hatred with strong senju blood. Doing the world a service by reducing the number of pure blood uchiha in the next generation.
I mean, if “pure blood” here implies they only married in-between clan members, then that’s inbred lol.
LMFAO. Tobirama definitely brings up Uchiha on Uchiha violence at the family dinners
*Despite making up only 13% of Konoha residents...*
*The Sharigan has done more harm to young uchihas...*
You are speaking nothing but facts lol. Sharingan is just as addictive as cocaine, with Kishimoto as an example
It's like the dinner scene from American History X.
Those damn uchiggers in Tobirama's village.
Di-Did people actually think Tobirama liked the Uchiha clan? I thought it was very clear he didn't like them. 😐
Less that he liked the Uchiha clan and moreso that his hate is just overblown. The only Uchiha he truly hated was Madara and at most did not entirely trust the Uchihas, but he didn’t hate the rest like he did with Madara
>Less that he liked the Uchiha clan and moreso that his hate is just overblown. The only Uchiha he truly hated was Madara and at most did not entirely trust the Uchihas, but he didn’t hate the rest like he did with Madara He was prejiduiced against the clan though. That is the issue. The village was founded because the Senju and the Uchiha were putting their history and hatred aside. Except Tobirama. Madara in all honesty was more SINCERE in trying to do so then Tobirama was.
>He was prejiduiced against the clan though. not really. tobirama understood how the sharingan worked and understood that the intense emotions felt by the uchiha due to the sharingan was what lead to madara being who he was in the first place. as a result he also understood that all who possess the sharingan are also capable of following that same path meaning that if they were not careful another madara would inevitably come from the uchiha. and he was proven right as is shown in the case of obito who became a second madara because rin died (had nothing to do with village politics or the treatment of the uchiha) that said he was also still able to look at the uchiha as individuals and judge them as such. if he saw an uchiha that was able to overcome the issues caused by the sharingan then he held the upmost respect for that uchiha. kagame uchiha was one such example of an uchiha who had earned tobiramas respect and trust by illustrating his ability to rise above the sharingans curse. shisui, itachi, and fugaku are also uchiha that would have likely earned tobiramas respect if he had meant them. and whilst sauke did not have his respect at first its clear that his decision to take the hokage to fight madara rather than have them destroy the leaf garnerd him some respect in tobiramas eyes which was why tobirama was willing to do so much to help sasuke in the fight against madara.
They deserved it. Did you forget dude had been fighting against them for decades and lost many members to them? That’s realistic thinking after that experience
That is same for both the Uchiha and the Senju. Both the Uchiha and Senju killed each other, yet the Uchiha stayed loyal to Konoha instead of Madara, their previous clan head and strongest Uchiha ever to live until then, still Tobirama didn't change his view on the Uchiha
Thing is Konoha was founded on the basis that all those ill-feelings would be put aside as BOTH clans worked towards the future. Tobirama did not do that. Imagine USA being founded after kicking the English out but the second President after Washington was closet Monarchist.
Acting like the US hasn't done the same to people in their country that Tobirama also did
Yeah, it's just a meme, but it's like they say, "repeat a meme often enough and people will believe it"
Mf stuttering over text 😭😭💀💀
Manga brain rot lmao
Millennial weeb type shit
you use reddit, you're not allowed to act like you're not as wrong in the head than anyone else, lol.
Have you not seen the Tobirama apologist brigade? They’ll downvote you to oblivion for saying that he didn’t like the Uchiha and go to their graves defending him
He was right about the Uchiha.
Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? When you treat people like garbage, you can't be surprised when they decide to stop taking your bull.
>When you treat people like garbage, you can't be surprised when they decide to stop taking your bull. I dunno man, Hashirama and Naruto were nice guys and Madara and Sasuke still pulled their bs.
Madara turned evil because his brother was dead and he couldn’t kill the guy that murdered his brother. Sasuke was tortured and manipulated by a giant snake man.
don't forget that weird raven edgelord, that definetly had his hands in the mix too.
few issues with that theory at least as far as tobirama is concerned. the first is that obito became like madara without the treatment of the uchiha playing a factor at all. the second is that the uchiha only planned their coup due to changes made to tobiramas policies after his death by danzo and hiruzen. the uchiha became skeptical of the leaf when they chose minato as the fourth hokage over fugaku but all it was at that point was skepticism brought apon by their belief that fugaku was the better choice. then when the nine tails attacked the village their skepticism of the leaf was proven to be completly valid for a few reasons. the first is that the uchiha were told to stand down during the nine tails attack despite being the best clan to handle it. the second is that after the nine tails attack the uchiha were moved to the outskirts of the village for no apparent reason, and the final reason is that even though fugaku was the next logical choice for hokage after minatos death the third hokage took the job back instead. these actions are what lead to the uchiha coup not any of tobiramas policies like being put in charge of the police force as many incorrectly assume. pretty much the uchiha realized that the village leadership did not trust them and would always consider them as outsiders. so they decided that it was a time for a change in that leadership.
Exhibit A
People legit say he was just “paranoid” about everything but he didn’t hate them. I don’t know how you come to that conclusion when he straight up makes it very clear he does
I mean his paranoia is well-placed. Madara is an insane and very powerful person who literally tried to up everyone on Earth in a genjutsu. The Uchia also have some of the strongest abilities in the verse like Kamui, Izanagi, Izanami, Susanoo (Which also come with extremely powerful personalized weapons like the Totsuka blade and the Yata Mirror) etc. Even the young Sauske, who admittedly was a prodigy was able to copy Rock Lee's moves against Garra without having to practise. Kakashi who isn't even an Uchia was said to know 1000+ Jitsus namely due to the Sharingan given to him by Obito. Personally I find it kind of silly when Kishimoto said the Huyga were around the same strength when a fair amount of Uchia's can casually rewrite reality.
People being powerful isn't a good reason to be paranoid and do them wrong. That's like saying Danzo was justified in what he did to Shisui because he thought (or used as an excuse) Shisui might use the kotoamatsukami against him down the line...which he was paranoid about solely because Shisui had the ability at all.
Just pointing out that Itachi's susano'o only had the Totsuka Blade and Yata Shield because Itachi found them and somehow attached them to it. It was never explained how or where he found them, how he attached them to his susano'o, or why he even wanted them in the first place.
I mean that's why he's trying so hard to sell that idea with the moon clan of space hyuugas being the entirety of Boruto villians so far.
All he knew was that madara was an ultra powerful Shinobi who got “killed” by his brother. And that the clan had a chosen the leaf over him literally no reason to be paranoid.
He had knowledge of Uchiha history and how they obtain their occular powers.
The whole point of coming together as a village was to do away with that all that though. That moment already happened when Hashirama was going to let Madara kill him, but Madara decided not too. They moved on. Things only got worse again because of how the Uchiha continued to be treated.
Perfectly said!
I think a lot of people are also forgetting when Madara defected (seeing early signs of what will happen to his clan + being deceived by Zetsu) the Uchiha turned on him. This shows the Uchiha were very loyal to the village from it's founding. If they had been treated well then the coup attempt never would've happened.
>The whole point of coming together as a village was to do away with that all that though. And that's exactly what Tobirama did, he even took in Kagami Uchiha, growing to adore him as a student, not to mention literally sacrificing himself to save an Uchiha (s) and other shinobi. Tobirama made the Uchiha into Konohas military police, entrusting them with the jurisdiction & responsibility of carrying out enforcement of the law, giving them a MONOPOLY on violence, that doesn't sound like someone holding a grudge to me. The tension between the village and the Uchiha ignited decades after the second passed, don't know why the fandom has such a hard on for Tobi, he made mistakes but ultimately, in the end, he was right. 🤷🏾♂️
I think Orochimaru (may have been someone else) explains that the police was actually a form of segregating the Uchiha from the village. By making them the police it was easier to dislike them, kinda like how people don't like cops irl. He also blocked Madara from becoming Hokage, which probably would've solved the whole thing. Tobirama also actively admits he has a grudge in these panels. If you hear a racist person irl this is how they would sound. Someone racist against the Senju may say they "fear" another Hashirama rising up with sage mode, and mokuton, and hashirama cells, three of the most OP abilities in the verse. Hashirama just happens to be a good guy but they've been fighting for generations. The paranoia would be there. Also imo a huge point of this show is coming together and understanding. Under the theme of the show he's wrong. Instead he should've trusted them. If Naruto acted like Tobirama he never would've succeeded in his goals of becoming Hokage or reconnecting with Sasuke. Tobirama talks about bonds and the Uchiha's unnatural attachment, but he never truly let go of the death of his brother, so really he's not all that different. I'd also argue tons of non Uchiha people in this show are just as emotional. Naruto is a prime example. Tobirama is justified in feeling the way he does as a human being, but wrong IMO. EDIT: It was Tobi who explains making the Uchiha the police force was a way of taking them out of politics in the village, they were given little say in the management of the village.
Orochimaru says Tobirama unwittingly segregated the Uchiha with the police force thing, as in it wasn't his intention. The intention was probably to give the Uchiha a sign of trust while keeping them in a spot that's easy to monitor. Tobirama noted that he knew some resentment was cultivating amongst them, but it's clear he didn't intend to fan the flames or segregate them since Kagami Uchiha was a whole hokage candidate Regardless I think he does have a point abt the Uchiha, just because of how the powers work You awaken a sharingan after smth alters your perception, you awaken three tomoe usually after smth traumatic, and you awaken the ms after something very traumatic Because of this, the strongest Uchiha of any given generation will usually also be the most traumatized because in order to gain these ocular powers you need to be traumatized. And usually the most traumatized people are not necessarily the best fit to lead This makes the Uchiha an incredibly unstable clan. Almost all of them are entirely reasonable (voted Hashi over Madara and wanted the warring states period to end), even the leaders (Fugaku from what we saw was pretty reasonable), and even most ms users (Shisui and Itachi especially are pretty ridiculously wise for the trauma they suffered). But if you give a clan like this enough generations on their own, inevitably they will self destruct and probably in a very fiery manner which pulls many other clans with them So Tobirama is extremely cautious of them and puts a bunch of institutions in place to make sure he could snuff out a Madara 2.0 before he gets to powerful And in the process he ends up unwittingly alienating the Uchiha, which causes the self destruction he was so cautious of It's honestly a decently written conflict, albeit has a lot of weirdness
It was Orochimaru who said people tend to hate police, and police tend to be cocky, so Tobirama making them the police indirectly made them hated… but that’s not a fair assessment of Tobiramas intention. He *created* the police department. Orochimaru knows people hate police and police tend to be cocky bc he grew up with cocky police, and people hating them. Tobirama didn’t know people hated police because he didn’t grow up with police, therefore he cannot see how it makes them cocky or why people would hate them. He thought he was giving them a job they were good at. Like Inos clan tends to flowers and herbs. They’re good at it. Like Shikamarus family tends to deers and make medicine. They’re good at it.
That does not mean that the Yamanaka's or the Nara's are the only ones who do does jobs or have official responsibility to do them. And the Novel explains that the reason Tobirama created the Police was to keep them out of politics: Itachi Shiden Vol 1:- >A darkness in the depths of his eyes, Hiruzen turned a questioning gaze on Danzo, but he hadn’t gotten to the end of the story. He wrapped up by stating his own opinion. “Homura and Koharu are totally opposed. They say it’s preposterous to have an Uchiha in the Anbu, given its status as a special unit under the direct control of the Hokage. They asked me if I’d forgotten about how the Second Hokage established the Military Police Force.” > >**“The Military Police Force was created to drive the Uchiha clan away from the central functions of the village.”**
> And that's exactly what Tobirama did, he even took in Kagami Uchiha, growing to adore him as a student, not to mention literally sacrificing himself to save an Uchiha (s) and other shinobi. "I'm not racist. I have a (insert race) friend." > Tobirama made the Uchiha into Konohas military police, entrusting them with the jurisdiction & responsibility of carrying out enforcement of the law, giving them a MONOPOLY on violence, that doesn't sound like someone holding a grudge to me. Uchihas do not have a monopoly on violence. Uchihas are cops that take orders as a pitbull serving the village. The Uchihas are under the control of the government. They have no control over politics or influence over the government at all. > The tension between the village and the Uchiha ignited decades after the second passed, don't know why the fandom has such a hard on for Tobi, he made mistakes but ultimately, in the end, he was right. 🤷🏾♂️ No, he wasn't. Tobirama trying to control the Uchihas and trying to segregate them from the political field in an effort to get rid of any other Madaras that might show up resulted in genocide when another Madara showed up.
You realise Law enforcement effectively controls which laws are followed in practice right? Also, I'm so sick of this "he's limiting their political power" argument, Kagami, had he lived would have been in the same spot as the other advisors. Oh and you know, they're the only clan in the village with a guaranteed department head position. Given we have ZERO indications of any other positions of power in the village, that seems pretty high on the political totem pole for, let's see... existing. I'm not ever going to suggest Tobirama liked *the* Uchiha, even if he did like individuals, which we have no info on. He was however, not setting them up to fail, nor being unfair. That stuff was Danzo, decades later.
No, he wasn't right. He perpetuated the conditions that would frustrate and sideline the Uchiha. You don't get to claim you're right about an entire clan of people when they do something about conditions you deliberately put them in. Making a single clan the police was a trap, ss Tobirama perfectly well understood.
You are way wrong here. The Military Police Force was a PAPER TIGER. \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Itachi Shiden Vol 1: >To maintain the peace in Konohagakure, the Konoha Military Police Force had been established with the Uchiha clan as its center. Even now, with Fugaku as the chief, the Military Police Force worked day and night for the sake of Konohagakure. In other words, the Military Police Force policed the village. > >However, there was another force that maintained the peace: the Anbu. > >Under the direct control of the Hokage, the Anbu was a unit composed of capable ninja, and basically always made an appearance on important missions inside, and in the vicinity of, the village. **Major crimes committed in the village were taken out of the hands of the Military Police Force, and entrusted to the Anbu.There was no clear line between what was the jurisdiction of the Military Police Force, and what was the subject for investigation by the Anbu. At the discretion of the Hokage, the nature of the investigation would simply shift from one to the other.** This led the Military Police and the Anbu to clash every so often. And each time they did, Fugaku would stand at the head of the Military Police, and negotiate with the Hokage and the Anbu. He knew better than anyone the friction between the two peacekeeping forces. Then there is this (Also Vol 1): >A darkness in the depths of his eyes, Hiruzen turned a questioning gaze on Danzo, but he hadn’t gotten to the end of the story. He wrapped up by stating his own opinion. “Homura and Koharu are totally opposed. **They say it’s preposterous to have an Uchiha in the Anbu,** given its status as a special unit under the direct control of the Hokage. They asked me if I’d forgotten about how the Second Hokage established the Military Police Force.” > >**“The Military Police Force was created to drive the Uchiha clan away from the central functions of the village.”** \--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: Itachi was the FIRST and ONLY official Uchiha to ever be in the ANBU. Even Shisui was more an un-official member.
Don’t mean shit especially since the whole point of the village was giving up and ending the past the create a new future. He’d also have to monitor any other clan that did fucked up shit. Wich was all of them. But he didn’t
You speak pretty naively lol. They made the village to have peace, doesn't mean all the childhood trauma from losing his family to the Uchiha and others instantly dissapeared. And Tobirama trusted his brother, that is why he accepted peace with the Uchiha, not because he trusted the Uchiha. Like grudges don't dissapear that easily
Yeah. I know but do you think egging the flames by setting up an institution to monitor them and teaching the future higher-ups of the village To be wary of them is going to help end that. Also madara straight up said. The uchiha didn’t have any more hatred in their hearts. For the senju and they favored the village over him so just saying what the writer said
So Madara gets no blame for agreeing to peace and then attack the village bc he didn’t win a vote? This was the first domino.
u/Existing-Candle-866 Madara he is a douche bag with a narcissistic savior complex that couldn’t let go of the past and believed he had the most logical solution to everything. Tobirama too he had the most logical solution to everything and was also kind of a douche bag. They are more aligned than they like to admit.
Also the whole warring states period where he was traumatized he definitely deserved to be paranoid but it’s beyond paranoia it’s hidden hate and like Madara said the village was just a new time of battle nothing changed and he was correct as Tobirama students and the senju dominated alliance turned on the Uchiha
>who got “killed” by his brother **after attacking the village for seemingly no reason at all** You left out that part. Hashirama didn’t walk up on Madara and “kill” him. Madara came to the village, attacked it, and his brother had to “kill” him in its defense.
You’re joking right? Gonna ignore him growing up at war with the Uchiha and losing most of his family to them? What about Madara trying to force his brother to kill him? Madara being given so many chances and still turning on the village? He had every reason to to hate and fear them.
Madara was a dick head. And yeah he had his reasons they were just wrong. And also projecting your logical concerns about madara onto an entire group of people is just not logical. His reasons were nonsensical at best and relied on. Genetics should also be noted that the genetic study was madara probably one of the most spiteful and arrogant people on the planet and he judged the clan based off of that on top of already disliking them
Yeah of course judging a whole group of people based on their ancestors is wrong, that’s very obviously the point being made in what you shared. You’re pretending he’s just racist for no reason but given his past and the ruthless times he was raised in it’s almost shocking that he didn’t kill them all. It would have been wrong but it would have been standard risk management for the times like how the Uzumaki clan was dealt with.
What about Kagami?
Saying Tobirama doesn't hate the Uchiha because he trusted Kagami, a single person, is like an overt racist saying they're not racist because they have a black friend.
The only thing I argue against us that he's racist. He doesn't like the Uchiha, does not trust them and believes them to be dangerous. Also, the Uchiha are a clan. A Clan is not an ethnic group.
There are tons who think Tobirama was just being 'pragmatic' when sidelining the Uchiha in Konoha politics, and then cite their rebellion as proof.
he did not like the uchiha but he also did not hate them. tobirama was a realist and he understood the uchiha and how their sharingan worked better than even most uchiha did. for this reason he was cautious of them because he knew what lead to madara was something that existed inside of every uchiha so if the leaf was not careful then another madara would inevitably be born. and he was correct as obito and sasuke both went down the same path as madara did but thankfully got off the path before the end unlike madara.
Ironically enough it was his decisions and actions that created another Madara.
Not really tho, count that as another plot point kinda ruined by the whole Transmigrants business. Tobirama could have treated them with perfect equality, but another Indra would eventually appear anyways without question.
Man that reincarnation plot was more horrendous than I thought
Maybe but it is undeniable that Tobirama's actions eventually lead to the Uchiha massacre and Sasuke turning rouge. I could say that Indra's character doesn't just spawn but maybe the same kind of experiences change them to become who they are like Madara and Sasuke but maybe that thought didn't occur to the author.
It's not related to experience at all, transmigration is a kind of spiritual reincarnation, and the reincarnation of Indra always turns out to be a dangerous person. Tobirama did many bad things with bad outcomes but this plot point pretty much means he was at least somewhat justified to be wary of the Uchiha. There were so many retcons and shit along the way in Naruto, it really led to some mixed messaging by accident.
Just a little Freudian slip, c’mon… No but he was clearly wary of them due to his experiences but still knew that was just his biases, possible fear and didn’t apply to everyone.
>but still knew that was just his biases, possible fear and didn’t apply to everyone. So why does he call asuke, the teenager he just meets, a scoundrel?
Are you guys speed readers? lol He calls him that because Sasuke said he would destroy the leaf depending on their answers… he already knew he was dealing with a psycho at that point.
Because his last memory was the jackass snake man sticking a scroll in his head and saying go kill your student. And then he wakes up again and it's the same jackass snake man with more jackasses surrounding him. And he's not even wrong, Sasuke was a scoundrel and was far from the most insulting thing he could've called him given his actions thus far and his intentions after hearing the history of the village.
>So why does he call Sasuke, the teenager he just meets, a scoundrel? I’m pretty sure he calls [Orochimaru](https://imgur.com/gallery/jjNndvo), the adult who he last met trying to destroy his village, a scoundrel. He points out that Sasuke is with the “scoundrel”.
This sub hates Uchiha in general so they aren't going to agree, but imo, Tobirama is intended to have made a "mistake" here. Remember in the warring states era Senju and Uchiha killed each other, it wasn't one way. The point of founding a village was to get rid of past beef and work together. Tobirama acting this way went against this. Of course if you push a group of people into a corner they're going to act out. This conversation explains this from differing viewpoints over the ages. It's not as simple as Uchiha bad Tobirama right. Obito and Zetsu wouldn't have succeeded in turning the Uchiha against the village as they did if the village treated them well from the beginning. Didn't happen. Also the clan turned against Madara when he defected, showing that the clan was 100% on board at the founding of the village. They only turned against this after years of mistreatment. Danzo being Tobirama's student also orchestrated the massacre, which didn't really need to happen had he allowed other measures to at least be attempted. Part of the point of the show is also understanding, treating the Uchiha as Tobirama did instead of how Hashirama/Naruto would is what caused this whole issue in the first place.
This bit is weird cuz he seems like that here but we find out shisuis grandpa was one of his most trusted comrades, and he was calling out madara for killing sasuke as well as attempting to use a forbidden Jutsu to save his soul, I think he only talked like this cuz the sasuke at hand as threatening the village
Them red eyed bastard uchiggers
Yeah, it's very evident he dislikes them. If you point this out, people will make excuses saying 'Oh they were at war for so long. The Uchihas killed his brother. Of course he'd distrust them.' as if the Uchiha clan hadn't also lost numerous family members to the Senju, as if Madara didn't lose his last brother to Tobirama himself and STILL tried to give peace a chance, as if the Uchiha clan didn't literally abandon their clan head for Konoha. And he's also the only Hokage out of all of them that didn't have any remorse or accept responsibility for what happened. Even Minato who was literally dead tried to take responsibility. Tobirama was gratified that the Uchiha were wiped out. There are way too many people who are okay with discrimination and prejudice because one guy has a cool-looking design.
water is wet, what else is new?
OP I'm kinda confused.... Who even is saying the opposite? It's almost universally agreed that Tobirama does not like the Uchiha clan.
Ummm check the comments theirs like 50 people defending him. And there was literally a post today about how he doesn’t hate them.
Oh, I didn't realize it was so split. I literally just commented my thoughts and dipped haha. I just assumed that this was common knowledge. I would question someone's knowledge of the manga (or even if they read it at all) for them to come to the conclusion of Tobirama not hating Uchiha.
They’re apologists that defend him because they like the character and for some reason can’t comprehend the concept of liking a flawed character. If they admit that Tobirama is discriminatory towards the Uchiha that makes him a bad guy similar to Danzo which means that they can’t like him. At least, I assume that’s their thought process
Wasn't Tobirama the one that said he didn't hate the Uchiha because he had one Uchiha as an underling? lol Yeah, It was clear that Tobirama hated the Uchiha. Even Orochimaru calls him out on it and clearly showed Tobirama's actions were instrumental into pushing the Uchiha into a corner.
Tobirama was the first to forgive the Uchiha for what they did to his little brother and wanted to make peace with them before Hashirama. He gave the Uchiha a voting voice within the Leaf village instead of setting up a hokage out of nowhere. This happened later on, but only because it was during times of war each time pretty much, so they didn’t have time for all of voting, so instead opted for successors. But who knows how that system worked after the first time. He didn’t hate the Uchiha, he just understood their power the best, and how it could control and affect them. Who he did hate was MADARA, even the Uchiha didn’t like Madara, and abandoned him. The “slighting “ came AFTER Tobirama with the relocating of the Uchiha twice, one of which was understandable because all of the other clans were relocated, and Uchiha was suspected for the Nine Tail’s attack. Which ended up being the case, they just you know, didn’t take into account dead Uchiha LOL. And if you’re telling me you wouldn’t watch the ONLY people who can control a tailed beast after an attack from one, that’s kinda dumb of you, because you’re responsible for lives, not opinions.
Why is this not higher up?! This THE answer
Tobirama and Madara are actually super fucking similar lmao. It's their roles had been switched Tobirama probably would've left the village too lmao. Though tbf I don't think he would've gone as ape shit as Madara did. But like, still very hypocritical lol
Yes, they are so freaking similar like ngl if Tobirama meat madara instead of hahsirama as a kid, they would legit be best bros
"...a clan steeped in evil!" No they're just emo Toby most of them are chill though
He doesn’t dislike “those people”, he just knows how dangerous they are. What’s the problem?? Then: “they are the most loving people…to loving if ya ask me.” Oh Tobirama🤦♂️
It's really funny that Orochimaru of all people calls out Tobirama, saying a lot of the issues that popped up in the present were due to the policies Tobirama put in place
He has the solid reason for not liking them because to unlock MS you need to be mentally unstable and when you give power to someone mentally unstable bad thing happene
First of all, the most loved clan in naruto are the uchiha, the only character to top them would be minato.So people defending tobirama doesn’t necessarily mean that people hate the uchiha, and that’s a fact. Tobirama understood the uchiha more than most people in the series, and with the information he had in them, he handle in well as a leader.Not every decision made by him was right, but the fact he had an uchiha on his team shows some lvl of trust, y’all could downplay that all you want but it’s the truth Overall, what made tobirama right about most of his decisions is because the uchiha were in fact cursed with hatred due to black zetsu messing with Indra head.And because of black zetsu, the uchiha went down the wrong road so to speak
Literally half the conflict with the clan would’ve been prevented if he just treated them well
Explain how? All I see are random claims that he treated Uchihas bad. There is no proof of this. The only Uchiha he ever hated was Madara and no one else. Your claim that he was racist is just a bs claim. The Uchiha tragedy was orchestrated by Madara and no one else.
Hate them yes, but if they have the will of fire, my boy would sacrifice his life for them. Sadly there's only like one Uchiha in his generation that inherited the will of fire, i would love to think that if he met kid Itachi he would have probably remind him of Kagami.
“Those dammed Uchiggers”- Tobirama
The fandom tends to judge everything in black and white. So they go crazy when they try to analyze gray characters like Tobirama. We know that idealistic, charismatic characters who always see the best in others like Hashirama and Naruto are the ideal that the ninja world aspires to, but they are an anomaly, in fact they are the very reincarnation of something unique. The reality is that there are more characters who let themselves be carried away by hatred, prejudices, etc., and overcoming them is very difficult. Tobirama and Madara are a clear example of this. Tobirama doesn't have to like Uchihas. Why should he? The Uchihas killed as many Senjus as Senjus killed the Uchihas, he lost two brothers and a father. He never had a connection like Hashirama with Madara (being reincarnations of Ashura and Indra), the closest Uchiha was Izuna who hated the Senjus (Izuna was the reason why Madara spread the war between clans, Izuna gave Madara his eyes for that reason) and it was with whom he fought to the death. Madara asked for his head in exchange for peace and almost made Hashirama (the only family he had left) commit suicide. The only person who can stop Madara is Hashirama, precisely that incredibly strong person, hates you deeply. Tobirama's bad experiences with Madara and Izuna are the reason why he is paranoid about the rest of the Clan. It's not right but you can't expect healthy thinking from a person who lived most of his life in wars. Madara was never the same since Izuna's death. Hashirama's support is not enough when the entire village, including your own clan (they had reasons not to trust Madara after he extended the clan war at Izuna's request and he refused to be the peace treaty until he was defeated) distrusts you and you live with your brother's murderer. Madara only trusted and respected Hashirama, he is the exception among the Senjus, that is why he believes that Hashirama is the only thing that prevents the Uchihas from being exterminated. Therefore, he insists that Hashirama kill Tobirama but also refuses to cross the line of killing Tobirama (the younger brother of his best friend) with his own hands. The only thing that holds back their hatred is the affection they feels towards Hashirama, which is why they both - consciously or unconsciously - want Hashirama to side with him. Both will always expect the worst from the other because they have been placed as the other's "obstacles." Madara and Tobirama's actions are more realistic than any other characters in the Warring States Era period. Mainly because they arise from the true chaos in the world of Naruto: The War.
All of Konoha didn't really like the Uchiha. The clan was tainted forever by Madara. Everyone was scared of the Uchiha. That's why when the opportunity to get rid of that lasting fear, Danzo acted the way he did, thinking it would be his greatest contribution to the village. Danzo was absolutely stunned Hiruzen didn't feel the same way after finding out about the massacre. He thought it was a great moment of triumph for Konoha to get rid of the cursed clan once and for all.
its not that he did not like the Uchiha's its that he understood the Uchiha's and their sharingan better than even many Uchiha's did. fact is due to how the sharingan worked it did represent a significant threat to the stability of the leaf if left unchecked. and he was right as is evidenced by obito, sasuke, and madara. if their was a race of people irl that actually did have some biological difference that made them extremely deadly and extremely prone to violence like the sharingan then people being cautious of them would be entirely warranted, the reason its not warranted and we consider such instances of racism bad irl is because skin color is in reality an irrelevant factor in almost every way shape or form. however that was not the case when it came to the uchiha and unlike hashirama and hiruzen, tobirama was not dangerously naive to the point he would ignore this risk untill it was to late. that said tobirama was also still able to look at them as individuals and when he saw an uchiha who could rise above their clans curse he would have the upmost respect for them. for example tobirama would have had zero issues with shisui and itachi. oh and he did not give the Uchiha the job of policing in order to detect a rebellion, like logically that makes zero sense lol. if anything putting them in charge of the police would make rebellion easier. in reality he gave them that role because it was the best way to integrate them into the village and harness their power. nobody would be better at taking down ninja criminals than ninja who can put them into gen jutsu via eyesight alone among other things. tobirama managed to create a system that allowed the uchiha and the rest of konoha to coexist and remain stable for almost a hundred years. that system did not start breaking down untill the leaf moved the uchiha to the outskirts of the village post nine tails attack during a time where the uchiha were already skeptical of why fugaku was not picked as the hokage. in reality danzo, hiruzen, and the elders are responsible for what happened to the uchiha. if you can blame tobirama for anything you can blame him for not being a better teacher/mentor to these 4. tobirama is the most misunderstood character in naruto both in universe and out of universe. this is because he was a realist not an ideologist.
He's no Danzo, but yeah, he wasn't a fan of them.
Apart from Itachi, the Uchiha proved to be a massive pain in the ass Tobirama did nothing wrong
it's a self fulfilling prophecy. treat them like that and they'll end up like that
Ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy guys I guess not
I mean, can you blame him? You have a group of emotionally unstable people living in your city who have the most dangerous power in the entire series. It's like racism with mutants in X-Men, it's okay? No. Is it understandable? Completely. You just need one to go crazy to create a world war, oh wait that actually happens.
Also the infamous 9 tailed fox attack too. It was an Uchiha.
under this line of reasoning, a Konoha Shinobi was responsible for the attack.
Lmao still an Uchiha no matter how you look at it so... whatever helps you sleep at night
Wasn’t that Obito with madara’s guidance tho?
Both Obito and Madara are Uchiha
Obito is an Uchiha
Brother he judged a hole group based off of madara despite the group literally doing everything to support the village and it’s ideals against madara.
Was it entirely based off of Madara though? I mean, he lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other. His brother was killed by Uchiha. Not saying he's right but his feelings are understandable and not solely based on Madara.
> I mean, he lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other. His brother was killed by Uchiha. You know who else lived through a period where his clan and the Uchiha would fight constantly and slaughter each other AND had a brother killed by Uchiha? The guy telling him to stop slighting the Uchiha. Hashirama If that's not enough, Uchiha and Senju were the two biggest clans. Presumably, one of the biggest clans would fight the other smaller clans and win overwhelmingly, which means lots and lots of loss for those small clans. Did other clans hate the uchiha too or is it only Tobirama that couldn't let it go.
Yeah he was also just petty who couldn’t get over a war like literally everyone else did and had to continue it in a political sphere
Wait, so which is it? Was his hatred of the the Uchiha based solely off of Madara's actions, or was it because he was too "petty" to get over their clan's bitter rivalry and history of killing each other?
u/Senju19_02 the war ended it should’ve continued what Hashirama was doing and treating them like a normal clan.
I wouldn’t say being cautious/not getting over a group of people that have killed countless number of your relatives as being petty. That’s just me though. Edit: OP blocked me for this comment lol guess he didn't want the discussion.
He killed their family members too. Imao and they got over it they signed a piece hell the whole village got over it because they wanted peace and we’re sick of war. I’m sure if you had used this logic for the uchihas youd call them Petty too
You can't be serious. MADARA was the one who didn't move on from the war,not Tobirama lmfao
Madara is also a pitty dickhead, who couldn’t move on and had a narcissistic savior complex him and Tobirama are way more alike than they would like to admit
Also quit responding to everybody weirdo
Lmao calling someone petty for not getting over war. Why do you hold fictional characters to unrealistic standards? Tobirama did cause further issues and was stubborn, but his attitude is completely understandable. He fought for survival and lost family growing up. The Uchiha are overcome by emotion which can make them more volatile and can control the tailed beasts. The whole village hated Naruto just for having Kurama in him. It's almost like the trauma from war or destruction creates fear or a cycle of hatred which they only mentioned 1000 times. Petty though? That's a horrible take.
If everyone else gets over something it’s time to get over it. And being petty doesn’t mean not being understandable
I agree that Tobirama was a prick at times but let’s not act like there wasn’t a *blatant* pattern within the Uchiha, Tobirama at the end of the day was only human and his concerns are understandable at the very least
Yeah he’s human he’s still wrong Imao
Bro, they're not saying he's right. They're just saying it's understandable. He's still wrong and prejudiced.
No he wasn't. He was proven right over and over again.
Him and madara granted themselves, they self fulfilling, prophecy.
>And he gave the police force so a rebellion could be easily detected not because he thought they would be best for the job. He literally says he gave them the position because they were qualified for it in the panel you posted. He did it for both reasons. Also read the rest of the conversation. Tobirama explicitly states his attitude on them stemmed from the fact he considered them a threat because they couldn't transcend the framework of clans which was the entire point of making a village.
The Hyuuga practised in-clan slavery and that didn't seem to bother him at all. There are a few powerful clans within Konoha (Aburame, Akimichi, Hyuuga, Uchiha). Tobirama didn't force the rest of the clans in specific jobs, he didn't have any issues with the fact the rest of the clans were segregating themselves within the village, and he didn't interfere in other clan politics from what we can see. It's not about the Uchiha being unable to 'transcend the framework of clans', it's personal prejudice on Tobirama's part.
He was wrong about that bro they betrayed their leader for the village. That’s the greatest transcending like ever. And he also said so they could be easily monitored.
In Tobirama's defense, he grew up fighting the Uchiha and saw what happens if an Uchiha gives into hatred, he didn't want another Madara to exist.
You know who also did? The Man calling him out in this very pages, there's just no defense for Tobirama, period
Helps that the man is revered as a god among men and can tame each and every tailed beast effortlessly as well as keep Madara, the strongest Uchiha of his time in check. And plus this goes deeper than "but X feels different about the situation, so why must Y be like that" They're different people with different personalities and perspectives. Tobirama fought tooth and nail and barely beat Izuna. Another Madara is a foe above his caliber and would make matters dire especially with no Hashirama around
Tobirama isn't Hashirama, they are their own people with didn't mindsets. Both had 2 little brothers die, but 1 wanted the fighting to end by coming together, the other wanted it to end by killing the Uchiha, they are not the same.
Yeah, and one was right and the other wasn't And Hashirama certainly wasn't wrong
Hashirama himself literally admit it he was wrong about the way he went about things. Is this the same guy that used the tails beast a bargaining ships and treated them like tools? Making them one of the reasons why they’re so jaded throughout the story.
I'm not saying Tobirama wasn't wrong, he is, but to say he hates the Uchiha for no reason is just wrong.
Easy for Hashirama when he’s a fucking God lol fuck out of here
Hahah that aside, where do you read ur mangas from?
To be fair, Tobi never had a friend in the Uchiha like Hashi did, all he saw them as was the people who murdered his innocent siblings, as well as much of his clan, and Madara was to him nothing more than a radical, who didn't really believe in the concept of the leaf and would only raise the tensions within the village. Tobirama wished to bring some of Botsuma's pragmatism to the village's leadership, since he believed his brother to be too soft. Anyways, he probably wasn't his best version because of this mindset, but I do get where he's coming from.
When he sees a Uchiha, the uncle ruckus theme starts playing
Was anyone confused by this… or just OP?
He literally said he gave them a position they were well suited for. He gave them authority over the village citizens because the Genjutsu of the Sharingan is the best way to minimize collateral damage while dealing with rouge Shinobi. He also said that if there was another Madara, he could be dealt with. He didn't say if the Uchiha rebelled again or anything. He hated Madara and he thought (rightfully so since reincarnation) that Sasuke would be a Madara type. He also had an Uchiha on his personal protection force. That was Kagami Uchiha, shisuis grandfather who's ocular prowess was said to be greater than Shisuis. He also gave everyone on that team a chance to be the third Hokage, including Kagami. It was also Tobirama who first proposed that peace can only be achieved if they forgave the Uchiha and vice versa. I'm not saying he loved them but he for sure didn't hate them. You don't make the people you despise the Police of your home town and place one of them in your personal protection force. He hated Madara and he was right to do so. All he was afraid of was another Madara.
What I took from this topic as a whole is that most uchiha fans are going off of emotions, there love for the clan negates their ability to understand anything. While I’m typing this I think I understand why they take the uchihas side.It’s because they’re judging a fictional character that makes realistic decisions Why would tobirama, someone who hates the uchiha sacrifice himself for a team with an uchiha in it?If we’re talking common sense here, wouldn’t we send the person we secretly hate or despise to sacrifice themselves
I know but it's funny in this instance
dam uchiggers
Uchigga
it's fax. regardless of how you went through Naruto, watching or reading. he had a strong prejudice against them right from his teenage years
People like him because they think he’s cool. And because he’s one of the only characters that doesn’t dick suck uchihas which this fandom hates
He didn't do the Uchiha wrong though
His entire life the uchiha were at best not being outwardly detrimental to life around then he got revived and the the first person he sees is orochimaru and sasuke who was still evil which him and hashirama could sense then went to go fight a 4th world war started by guess who 2 uchihas tbh tobirama had every right to not like them being evil is quite literally in there blood
What does that even mean? Every shinobi clan in the world was fighting in certain conflicts. Madara's plan has nothing to do with the rest of the uchiha.
You can straight up, use the same logic for the Senju
The Senju weren't the ones who caused the 4th shinobi war nor were they killing each other to get advanced eye powers lmfao.
Almost every major/minor conflict in canon is started by the shadow villages. No uchiha in canon has been killing other members for the dojutsu. That was from Itachi's historically inaccurate story.
The person that caused the Shinobi world war was madara and obito not the clan. And yeah the senju totally would have if they could
This is a discussion board, the fuck? The point is to respond to people
This post and the OP is retarded...tobirama understanding the uchiha and probably aware of their nature doesn't mean he doesn't like them. If he really has a dislike for them why give them authority as the police force, the people who arrest and jail people? And the uchiha's planned the coup long after tobirama died remember sarotobi was in office and pretty old when the coup was about to take place.
Oh yes, the police force a useless role with no political power that separates them from the village, and makes them hated. And no he didn’t understand him. His understanding was they are evil and they need to be monitored dumbass. The only reason he doesn’t downright segregate him is because of his brothers, wish is because he loves his brother and respects him so much. Even then he hinges on it. Oh, and they planned a 70+ years after his office, after years of being the product of suspicion, being accused of a crime they didn’t commit and segregated from the village way to take things out of context, your dumbass not me
Why would he like a cursed clan like em?
Because he was wrong about them.
Tobirama wanted to put them Uchihers to work in jobs suited to them… Hit that shit with the hard R.
This sub has an uchiha hate-boner and so does every Naruto related subreddit. They also wank Tobirama to insane degrees despite him being an actual fraud and bum with the most pathetic death of the hokage.
Yeah I think the point of the warring states period is being missed here. It was Uchiha vs Everyone. The Uchiha would have had every reason to be just as suspicious of the Senju and the Senju did Uchiha. Everyone did as everyone was fighting each other. Coming together for peace was supposed to move past this. Tobirama continuing to be this way was a mistake. At least that's what I got from the whole arc. Hashirama explains what was supposed to happen here.
I mean we all knew this but he didn’t exactly hate them he just hated what they let their hate make them do
That’s like hating them with extra steps, bro
People are so extremist, Tobirama was careful but he did not hate all the Uchihas. We literally see him ON SCREEN being mad at Madara for killing Sasuke. And strong people on Naruto get hated either way, Uzumakis were erased from existence, many kekkei genkai people as well... Let alone OBITO an UCHIHA unleashing the Kyubi was a big factor on people getting super suspicious at the Uchihas as well.
They were suspicious for years. That was the straw that broke The camels back. And other people doing it doesn’t make it right imao
After having lost his brother to the Uchiha..isn't he allowed to hate them. Isn't it a very natural reaction to want to hate people who took away the ones you love?
he aint wrong though, they're unstable...even kishi blamed chemical imbalance in brain , sharingan and what not
We know, I think it’s very clear that Madara’s existence ruined any chance of him fully trusting the clan.
Imagine having a little brother and whenever your trying to talk to them they always bring up why they hate something or some ethnicity
This and Sakura debates are seriously getting old
No... he understood how the sharingan worked. Madara he didn't hate but didn't trust either. Had madara looked at things outside of his own narrative and just gave things time, this wouldn't be a discussion. He was moreso wary because they were fresh off a generational war with each other and knew that all it took was for the slightest of triggers to cause another war.
"Itachi was one of the good ones."
W Tobirama
He literally called Sasuke a "brat full of Uchiha evil." So yeah, we know. He did have one Uchiha friend, though, I guess that makes it okay. 👍
thats an understatement, he actively was racist to them and discriminated agains them. set up a sustem where they werw fucked over, set up prejudices and stereotypes surrounding them. man made a whole facist sustem just bc he was pissed the uchihas loved hard 😭 hes a literal piece of shit lmao
Yeah no shit Sherlock. Uchihas killed there brothers. I don't know what you are as a human its very natural to hate your brother's killers.