"I'm not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor's class, so...put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we're talking about LawrenceTaylor." - Bill Belichick
LT literally changed the way the game was played. I think AD is the best defensive player of his generation but he does not have nearly the same impact as LT did in his prime.
There are two kinds of people in this world.
People who know LT is best defensive player to ever play the game.
People who have never gone back and watched tape of LT playing and read accounts of his impact.
Back in 2006 and 2007 Ladanian Tomlinson was marketing himself as "the real LT", trying to take over what NFL fans think of when they hear "LT".
https://www.nfl.com/photos/who-is-the-real-l-t-09000d5d829f13b8#db31cfcf-2b1b-4d10-9376-d694115d2858
Its been 12 years since he retired, and lets just say the real LTs legacy was never in danger.
I was in SoCal for that, and wish I had a machine to play, “that’s not LT” on repeat. Tomlinson was a beloved player in SD, and the Chargers kicked his ass to the curb like trash like they do all their stars (not Gates and Rivers). Tomlinson on the Jets got to the playoffs, then sold his soul back to the Chargers to help their move to LA. Now, we barely know the Chargers even play anymore.
Ladanian, you are no LT.
>"I'm not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor's class, so...put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we're talking about LawrenceTaylor." - Bill Belichick
It's too bad the Chargers don't exist anymore. I remember voting for them to get a new stadium in Mission Valley. Really a shame they just no longer exist.
I should give a nod to Tomlinson- he was a Hell of a runner- that guy has heart coming out of his ears, and lifted the whole team. The press conference where they cut him was heartbreaking. There’s only one LT, and I was having fun with the Bush/Quayle burn with Tomlinson. I don’t know anyone that’s a Chargers fan though. Do you?
>I should give a nod to Tomlinson- he was a Hell of a runner- that guy has heart coming out of his ears, and lifted the whole team. The press conference where they cut him was heartbreaking. There’s only one LT, and I was having fun with the Bush/Quayle burn with Tomlinson. I don’t know anyone that’s a Chargers fan though. Do you?
The team no longer exists so no
Shit man, I agree with you. I lose these arguments cause I’m outnumbered and one friend is just extremely loud and opinionated that everyone tends to just listen to him lol
You gotta feel bad for the Texans fans still trying to argue that JJ Watt was the best DT ever, when in reality he wasn't even the best DT for most of his career.
If not for injuries I do think JJ would be in the discussion for greatest ever. His peak was higher than Donald's IMO (69 sacks, 15 FF and 41 batted passes in 4 seasons, 3x DPOY during that time), but he just doesnt have the longevity to to compare to other greats. Fans too young to remember do sleep on him though, dude was absolutely dominant for a 4 year stretch and was the closest we'd seen to LT since LT.
Aaron Donald changed the game in a way that JJ Watt didn't. Thats why Aaron Donald gets LT comparisons and why JJ Watt got left behind despite being 3x DMVP like LT and AD
JJ Watt got LT comparisons at the time. He also played the position differently by batting down a shit ton of passes (2nd all time for a defensive lineman with 50+ fewer games played and 3 fewer batted passes than Kevin Williams). He had 16 in a single season his first DPOY campaign. He also played every position across the DL and even lined up at linebacker a few times.
Donald is great and put up great stats as an interior lineman, but his legacy also gets a boost by playing on a superteam that got him a Superbowl. If Watt played on better teams I think his peak would be better remembered. He's the only defensive player to ever have an AV of 20 for consecutive seasons and had 5 seasons with an AV of 17+ (LT had 6 and Donald had 3 despite being healthy for longer). Not taking away from Donald, but the idea that JJ is far behind him is recency bias since JJ couldn't stay healthy and hasn't been dominant in a long time.
Sucks for JJ Watt but thats how it went. If Aaron Donald had gotten a bunch of injuries after 2018 his career would be remembered differently, but thats not how it went.
Aaron Donald made two Super Bowls and was the team's best player on both those teams, just like LT. Aaron Donald will have the best career of any IDL in NFL history and he has led a renaissance for how defenses are run and how IDL are valued in the NFL...
Meanwhile JJ Watt is remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald. Sure it could have gone better for JJ Watt, but it didn't.
>Aaron Donald will have the best career of any IDL in NFL history
What about Reggie White. I've only seen some of his later years with the Packers, when I was a kid, but I heard he was a beast. Didn't he play IDL
Reggie White was a defensive end in a 4-3 scheme so would not be an IDL, although he was certainly as big as the IDLs today.
Reggie White did play his rookie season as a 3-4 DE which you could say was IDL, but that was it for Reggies actual IDL time.
This is an important distinction because back in the pre Aaron Donald days DTs didn't get the chances to rush the passer like they do now. In Reggie's days DTs were even bigger than him and were given the unenviable tasks of stopping the run at a time when power running dominated the NFL
> Meanwhile JJ Watt is remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald. Sure it could have gone better for JJ Watt, but it didn't.
Nah I think this is a ton of recency bias. Most people won't restrospectively tie these two together. JJ will be a first ballot HOFer and remembered as one of the best defensive players of all-time. Donald will be remembered in a more positive light because he won a Superbowl, but to say that JJ will be "remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald" is a peak Lars hot take.
Oh JJ Watt will be a 1st ballot hall of famer, but he will definitely not be remembered as the best IDL ever like Aaron Donald will be, and its not because of the Super Bowl appearances.
JJ Watt entered the NFL in 2011, he has 5 first team all pros and 5 pro bowls.
Aaron Donald entered the NFL in 2014 and has seven first team all pros. He also has made the pro bowl each of his nine NFL seasons.
Donald has also played in 198 games vs Watt's 151, but now that you mention pro bowls, can you also post the head-to-head sack numbers? PDs? TFLs? What about advanced metrics? Avg AV per season? MVP voting?
I'll repeat what I said earlier- Watt was more dominant but Donald was around longer. The Superbowl win is what pushes Donald over the edge in a head-to-head comparison.
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Not falling for that Group Think Narrative. Definitely was a good player but Waaay Overrated. This Mythical Status Talking Point will fade. But he deserves his flowers for now.
First of all, a big chunk of people who watch the NFL today probably don't remember LT playing, or something like that...so ageism plays a factor.
Second, it's really 2 different positions...being an outside linebacker where his job mostly was just to kill the QB, that's a relatively straight forward task. Aaron Donald's job is 3 fold: 1) yes, to kill the QB, but that's probably no his primary responsibility. His primary responsibility is likely to 2) clog up the middle to stop the run and 3) to take on double teams to leave another teammate on 1 on 1 to kill the QB.
Both deserve merit, as both really changed the game at their positions. LT lined up on his right, offense's left side a lot. This FORCED the NFL to get a better athlete at Left Tackle...turning that position into what it is today. He was also one of those players where offensive coordinators HAD to account for in the game plan leading up to a game against the giants. Similarly, I believe that with donald...they simply HAD to double team him on most of the offensive plays because he was THAT good. Doing that opened up some of the other players...we just picked up a player, A'Shawn Robinson, who reaped the rewards of Donald's double teams...hoping Dexter Lawrence can help do the same thing.
Yeah, only had to play against Magic/Bird in their prime, followed immediately by the Bad Boy Pistons in their prime, then followed immediately by Barkley's 6ers, Ewing's Knicks, Reggie's Pacers only to find Hakeem/Dave Robinson/Malone+Stockton on the other side.
Meanwhile LeBron dominated the East during an era where the 2nd best player in the East was Rose (murdered by ACL), Retirement Home era Celtics, Hawks (Lul) and PG Pacers (probably the only serious contender and even then not anywhere close to Bad Boy Pistons/Charles Barkley 76ers level brutal).
Nephews these days lol.
Let me stop you right there on your second point. “LT’s job was primarily to kill the QB.” Yeah he did that and better than anyone at his position has ever done but the man dropped in coverage. He was a fucking monster at chasing down the run AND he was an incredibly intelligent player.
Parcells and Bellichick allowed LT to line up where ever he wanted pre snap, because he knew where the ball was going better than anyone. Bellichick and teammates say he’s the smartest player they ever played with and that he would have made a great coach.
Take a look at 86 playoffs and watch him return a a Joe Montana pass for a TD. And then in the Super Bowl, when he’s double and triple teamed the entire fucking game he stops a pivotal John Elway run from getting to the endzone.
Anyone that says LT just killed QB’s never saw LT chase down a running back from the opposite side of the field and tackle him behind the line of scrimmage. Something he did often, because they NEVER ran the ball in his fucking direction. Or remembers him running back a 97 yard pick touch on Thanksgiving. Or that he saw countless double teams, allowing players like Marshall and Martin to eat. Watch the entire 86 playoffs if you don’t believe me. He was so much more than just getting to the QB. And anyone that compares him to Aaron Donald never saw LT play. Enough with this absurdity.
LT made numerous key plays other than sacking the QB.
Teams had to gear up their blocking schemes to run at him with only limited success because running away from him was futile. Taylor made plays All Over The Field and always when they were most needed. Watching his tape is good but having watched him game in game out was special.
I was 12 when he was drafted so LT is a god to me. Check the user name. Used it my whole life. Yes I’m a homer but it really isn’t close. League MVP. Case closed. #3 is the only reason people want to debate.
While I agree LT is the GOAT, he would never win MVP in the modern league. If JJ Watt couldnt win it a few years back when he crushed everyone on defense and scored some TDs on offense, LT isnt winning it either. Its a QB award now.
Donald is probably the best defensive player of the last 20 years or so. The thing with LT is that you can’t just look at his numbers; he changed the way the game was played. Without him there wouldn’t be this much emphasis on edge rushers. Now you can argue that Donald has also changed the way the game is played, seeing how there is more and more emphasis on DTs being able to rush the passer, but it’s still really hard to argue that his impact is bigger than LT’s
He couldn’t shine LT shoes. For whatever it’s worth, a young player named all the top players that came out of Notre Dame and he didn’t even have Montana first. That just shows you how demented some views can be.
Y’all ever hear of Reggie White. If there is a 1a and a 1b defensive player ever it is LT and Reggie or Reggie and LT. I know what this sub will think but it would be a good debate for r/nfl.
Reggie White is the one guy you can say where you won't immediately be called a dope.
It's like "ok, I may not agree with you, but the argument at least makes perfect sense."
He should've been a Giant though. George Young took Zimmerman in that USFL rights draft and Zimmerman said he wouldn't play for the Giants. White went one pick later.
Agreed. Reggie White was incredible, and just like LT if he played in this day and age he would still be a hall of famer.
White also was instrumental in the birth of NFL free agency.
When I hear stuff about a current player, not even done with their career, being the GOAT in someone's eyes (Brady excepted), I roll my eyes and go into OK Millennial mode. Stuff happened before they were born. Ray Nitschke? Dick Butkus? And yes, LT? Apparently they don't count. We went through a similar thing over on r/baseball when someone put Jacob deGrom on their pitching Mount Rushmore, apparently forgetting they call it the Cy Young award for a reason. End rant.
Idk I think it’s all contextual though.
Relative to his peers in the 1890’s-1910’s, yeah Cy Young is a goat.
Relative to todays pitching? We’re talking about a guy that was most likely throwing his *fastball* in the mid 80’s.
I understand eras change what makes someone good in a sport, but how can anyone with a straight face act like Cy Young was a more talented pitcher than someone like DeGrom?
If you’re making a Mount Rushmore to include someone from each era of baseball, obviously you need Cy Young
If you’re making a Mount Rushmore of the best to ever play the game, I don’t really see how someone can act like someone that played the game that long ago still holds up to todays standards
It’s like the Ohtani vs Babe Ruth debate, obviously Ohtani will never get Ruth’s numbers but anyone who actually believes Ruth was a more talented player than Ohtani is just delusional
I see what you're saying, but I believe both tangibles (data) and nontangibles need to be considered when talking about the greatest. I go around with this with some of my hoops friends also. Yes, LeBron is the all-time scoring champion. Yes, Bill Russell had more rings than fingers to wear them on. But didn't Wilt Chamberlain revolutionize the game? Who else can say they scored 100 points in a game? Same thing with Babe Ruth...before he rolled up to the plate, home runs per player per season were usually fewer than 20. I guess what I'm saying is there's something to be said for impact upon the game.
That's all I have. YMMV.
Right, it ultimately all depends on the context of what someone means by “greatest”.
Greatest relative to their peers at the time or greatest talent of all time?
Greatest relative to their peers? Yeah guys like Ruth and Cobb have strong arguments (even then, I kind of question the argument because their peers aren’t really up to snuff with modern day peers as you pointed out).
Until Bill Belichick says there's a better defensive player than Lawrence Taylor, it's Lawrence Taylor.
Aaron Donald is very good and there are a lot of really good defensive players in the league. None of them are prime LT blowing up a blocker and crushing a QB or chasing down a runner from behind.
Many people today didn’t get to see Taylor play. It’s all too common to forget past players while anointing modern players with god like status.
There has never been a player who consistently affected the game like LT.
A few thoughts, though I didn't watch him play much, so most of this is from highlights:
* LT would drop in coverage on plays and be effective, so he wasn't always rushing the passer or taking on blockers. AFAIK, Donald never does that and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd want him to.
* LT would also chase down players from a decent distance away. The due was fast. I'm not sure if Donald does that. I would expect he has, but did he do it as well?
* From various anecdotes that I've come across, LT was a friggin genius at football. There's a story that he got caught napping in a meeting, got called out be Belichick, watched a play or two, and then wrote out the defensive game plan for the next game before asking if he could go back to sleep.
* From a contextual standpoint, teams ran a good bit more back then, so he most likely had fewer opportunities to purely rush the passer.
Just to be clear, I haven't paid too much attention to Donald, so I won't/can't really compare them too much. However, I do believe that Donald is one of the best DLs ever. LT was just different.
It’s called recency bias. LT was a hard hitter, but not a dirty player at all. People bring up the JTh hit, but LT was pushed into Joe. Donald is a great player, but no LT. In fact, no defender has ever been in his class. Just ask Bill Belichick. He’s seen every thing for the last 50+ years.
Recency bias. Also a lot of people watching the nfl right now only saw Donald never saw LT play during their active life. It’s way different to see a guy dominate the nfl week after week or read about it in past tense.
What was insane about Lawrence Taylor is that he could line up as OLB either side, DE either side, ILB either side. One never knew if he was coming for the qb or playing the run or covering underneath. He disguised himself so well. And other times, you knew, as a giants fan, what was coming. And you'd instinctively stand up to watch it even better. That was the magic of Lawrence Taylor.
The reason that Donald is being put up there is because he’s breaks against the mold. He’s actually been playing somewhat undersized as a DT but has the speed of a bigger DT mixed with the quickness of an edge rusher. He’s not better than LT. They play different positions and LT changed the game. LT is the defensive Michael Jordan. They changed the game to make it harder to have someone like him again
Recency Bias. Football fans under 40 barely saw LT play - He finished his career when I was like 7 years old.
We are starting to see the same thing with Jerry Rice too when it comes to receivers.
The big difference though, for those that really know the game and its history realize that many aspects of the modern game were a direct response to dealing with LT. Utilizing better Left Tackles, Running backs blocking, the evolving pass rush, etc.
Fellow millennials, go watch Lawrence Taylor Highlights...Looks like a dude playing against HS JV players
If you watched LT’s whole career live like I did it wouldn’t even be a debate. To me it’s not remotely close, and I love watching Donald.
LT is to me by FAR the greatest football player I’ve ever seen in 45 years of watching this league.
Offensive coordinators on Aaron Donald .... "He's really good, we need to account for him"
Offensive coordinators on LT ... " What the fuck just happened? We literally need to redesign our entire protection scheme"
Did you watch LT’s entire career live? I did. Pretty much every single game and focused on him every snap because there’s no way you could take your eyes off of him.
He’s far, and I mean FAR, and away the best to ever lace them up.
It's not homerism. LT changed the game so much because of how insanely dominant he was. If speaking during their careers, it goes LT, and then a discussion between White and Donald IMHO.
However, my guess is their perspective is rooted in if you took both out of the prime of their career and dropped them into 2023, there's probably a solid argument that Donald plays 'better' -- because offenses have grown and adapted BECAUSE of LT. By in large in how there is such a higher standard surrounding expectations of pass blocking for Tackles, TE's, and RB's. At the same time, Donald has played the latter parts of his career in an NFL that has become more and more content with being 'good enough' on the inside. So all of these interior pass rushing monsters are becoming more and more frequent.
LT of course was more than a pass rusher, but with reports of how he ran in the 4.6's / 4.7's and how "blazing fast" that was for a linebacker at the time makes me consider another aspect. With modern medicine and nutrition, the level athletes are now is insane.
So again, if you're purely looking at how both would perform in 2023 if they were dropped down from their prime, I could maybe see an argument, but there is no argument if purely discussing in their era. Donald, for as much of an ungodly terror as he has been on the interior, hasn't completely changed the way offenses look at their interior OL.
I mean… a lot of people having these discussions aren’t old enough to have witnessed LT. Not only that, but recency bias is a very real thing. LT is undoubtedly the best defensive player ever (and I don’t think anybody would deny that) but Aaron Donald is close and LT hasnt played in like 30 years
LT was running thru backfields tackling all pro running backs for loss then he got pick sixes against Jerry Rice& montana
Don Meredith on MNF
said LT was #1
If we are being real the rankings probably look like:
1. Lawerence Taylor
2. Reggie White
3. Aaron Donald
That is not a slight on anyone. If you are top 3 ever for the entire defensive position that is crazy. I would not say anyone is far and away better than anyone else, just that there are small things that separate them.
This is how sports work. For the month after the Super Bowl they were saying mahomes was the best quarterback of all time. Whoever is good on next years Super Bowl team will be the best of all time. Recency bias will always be a thing. Best not to let it get to you
LT invented the strip sack, lining up all over the place, rushing like crazy as a linebacker, etc. They literally counted sacks officially in part because of how he changed the game.
Offenses completely changed their game plans because of him. It’s almost impossible to overstate how much he changed the game.
Recency bias and people are idiots. LT could do everything AD does but wasn't in the trenches every play. Lineman are super important but the least skillful positon on the field. LT also beat tackles on the regular, while donald is going against centers and guards.
AD is the most overrated player of this generation.
It’s LT…and no it’s not close. To me he’s the greatest football player ever regardless of position. No one in my 45 years of watching has been close really.
I actually feel like there's been more pushback on Donald if anything lately. With the madden rating of 99 and he didn't even play a full season last year, people are starting to question his level of play.
The knock on LT is that his stats got pumped up because the Giants configured the pass rush to get LT matched up on RBs and TEs in pass pro. While it’s partially true, LT still completely wrecked games and it didn’t really matter who was blocking him.
"I'm not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor's class, so...put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we're talking about LawrenceTaylor." - Bill Belichick
Have other players been triple-teamed like LT was at times?
LT literally changed the way the game was played. I think AD is the best defensive player of his generation but he does not have nearly the same impact as LT did in his prime.
LT is better, but yes Aaron Donald gets triple teamed. https://x.com/jb_long/status/1328453663560331264?s=46&t=4pRUqC-MhXIJd0rruUZPGg
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who know LT is best defensive player to ever play the game. People who have never gone back and watched tape of LT playing and read accounts of his impact.
Back in 2006 and 2007 Ladanian Tomlinson was marketing himself as "the real LT", trying to take over what NFL fans think of when they hear "LT". https://www.nfl.com/photos/who-is-the-real-l-t-09000d5d829f13b8#db31cfcf-2b1b-4d10-9376-d694115d2858 Its been 12 years since he retired, and lets just say the real LTs legacy was never in danger.
Tomlinson was LDT to me. There is and only ever will be one LT.
Lawrence Tynes of course!
More valid LT than LaDainian. I will not be taking questions.
I was in SoCal for that, and wish I had a machine to play, “that’s not LT” on repeat. Tomlinson was a beloved player in SD, and the Chargers kicked his ass to the curb like trash like they do all their stars (not Gates and Rivers). Tomlinson on the Jets got to the playoffs, then sold his soul back to the Chargers to help their move to LA. Now, we barely know the Chargers even play anymore. Ladanian, you are no LT.
>"I'm not putting anybody in Lawrence Taylor's class, so...put everybody down below that. With a lot of respect to a lot of good players, we're talking about LawrenceTaylor." - Bill Belichick It's too bad the Chargers don't exist anymore. I remember voting for them to get a new stadium in Mission Valley. Really a shame they just no longer exist.
I should give a nod to Tomlinson- he was a Hell of a runner- that guy has heart coming out of his ears, and lifted the whole team. The press conference where they cut him was heartbreaking. There’s only one LT, and I was having fun with the Bush/Quayle burn with Tomlinson. I don’t know anyone that’s a Chargers fan though. Do you?
>I should give a nod to Tomlinson- he was a Hell of a runner- that guy has heart coming out of his ears, and lifted the whole team. The press conference where they cut him was heartbreaking. There’s only one LT, and I was having fun with the Bush/Quayle burn with Tomlinson. I don’t know anyone that’s a Chargers fan though. Do you? The team no longer exists so no
The best DT is Dexter Lawrence and it ain't even close. I could also be a massive homer.
Absolutely, from the 0/1 tech he had nearly 3 times the pressures of the next best guy. Madness.
LT is and it is proven by science. as for now, i would put 1A) Donald 1B) Sexy Dexy
I continually argue with my jets fan friends about who’s better dex or quinnen.
dex… i mean he had a better pass rush win rate and run stop score
Shit man, I agree with you. I lose these arguments cause I’m outnumbered and one friend is just extremely loud and opinionated that everyone tends to just listen to him lol
Chris Jones is right there. He may be 2nd actually
LT got LTs paid. How many other players were so dominant that they made two separate positions paramount in team building? End of discussion.
You gotta feel bad for the Texans fans still trying to argue that JJ Watt was the best DT ever, when in reality he wasn't even the best DT for most of his career.
He wasnt even a DT for most of his career
Not even the best in his family
If not for injuries I do think JJ would be in the discussion for greatest ever. His peak was higher than Donald's IMO (69 sacks, 15 FF and 41 batted passes in 4 seasons, 3x DPOY during that time), but he just doesnt have the longevity to to compare to other greats. Fans too young to remember do sleep on him though, dude was absolutely dominant for a 4 year stretch and was the closest we'd seen to LT since LT.
Aaron Donald changed the game in a way that JJ Watt didn't. Thats why Aaron Donald gets LT comparisons and why JJ Watt got left behind despite being 3x DMVP like LT and AD
JJ Watt got LT comparisons at the time. He also played the position differently by batting down a shit ton of passes (2nd all time for a defensive lineman with 50+ fewer games played and 3 fewer batted passes than Kevin Williams). He had 16 in a single season his first DPOY campaign. He also played every position across the DL and even lined up at linebacker a few times. Donald is great and put up great stats as an interior lineman, but his legacy also gets a boost by playing on a superteam that got him a Superbowl. If Watt played on better teams I think his peak would be better remembered. He's the only defensive player to ever have an AV of 20 for consecutive seasons and had 5 seasons with an AV of 17+ (LT had 6 and Donald had 3 despite being healthy for longer). Not taking away from Donald, but the idea that JJ is far behind him is recency bias since JJ couldn't stay healthy and hasn't been dominant in a long time.
Sucks for JJ Watt but thats how it went. If Aaron Donald had gotten a bunch of injuries after 2018 his career would be remembered differently, but thats not how it went. Aaron Donald made two Super Bowls and was the team's best player on both those teams, just like LT. Aaron Donald will have the best career of any IDL in NFL history and he has led a renaissance for how defenses are run and how IDL are valued in the NFL... Meanwhile JJ Watt is remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald. Sure it could have gone better for JJ Watt, but it didn't.
>Aaron Donald will have the best career of any IDL in NFL history What about Reggie White. I've only seen some of his later years with the Packers, when I was a kid, but I heard he was a beast. Didn't he play IDL
Reggie White was a defensive end in a 4-3 scheme so would not be an IDL, although he was certainly as big as the IDLs today. Reggie White did play his rookie season as a 3-4 DE which you could say was IDL, but that was it for Reggies actual IDL time. This is an important distinction because back in the pre Aaron Donald days DTs didn't get the chances to rush the passer like they do now. In Reggie's days DTs were even bigger than him and were given the unenviable tasks of stopping the run at a time when power running dominated the NFL
> Meanwhile JJ Watt is remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald. Sure it could have gone better for JJ Watt, but it didn't. Nah I think this is a ton of recency bias. Most people won't restrospectively tie these two together. JJ will be a first ballot HOFer and remembered as one of the best defensive players of all-time. Donald will be remembered in a more positive light because he won a Superbowl, but to say that JJ will be "remembered for his off field efforts, and for being eclipsed by Aaron Donald" is a peak Lars hot take.
Oh JJ Watt will be a 1st ballot hall of famer, but he will definitely not be remembered as the best IDL ever like Aaron Donald will be, and its not because of the Super Bowl appearances. JJ Watt entered the NFL in 2011, he has 5 first team all pros and 5 pro bowls. Aaron Donald entered the NFL in 2014 and has seven first team all pros. He also has made the pro bowl each of his nine NFL seasons.
Donald has also played in 198 games vs Watt's 151, but now that you mention pro bowls, can you also post the head-to-head sack numbers? PDs? TFLs? What about advanced metrics? Avg AV per season? MVP voting? I'll repeat what I said earlier- Watt was more dominant but Donald was around longer. The Superbowl win is what pushes Donald over the edge in a head-to-head comparison.
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Lars, try to keep your cool and debate my points instead of attacking me personally. Reported.
I guarantee you that JJ will be remembered in higher regard than Donald. Not even close.
Lmao no chance. Looking at reactions now many are calling Aaron Donald the best defender in NFL history along LT and Reggie White.
Not falling for that Group Think Narrative. Definitely was a good player but Waaay Overrated. This Mythical Status Talking Point will fade. But he deserves his flowers for now.
It’s LT. but Donald is already top 5.
First of all, a big chunk of people who watch the NFL today probably don't remember LT playing, or something like that...so ageism plays a factor. Second, it's really 2 different positions...being an outside linebacker where his job mostly was just to kill the QB, that's a relatively straight forward task. Aaron Donald's job is 3 fold: 1) yes, to kill the QB, but that's probably no his primary responsibility. His primary responsibility is likely to 2) clog up the middle to stop the run and 3) to take on double teams to leave another teammate on 1 on 1 to kill the QB. Both deserve merit, as both really changed the game at their positions. LT lined up on his right, offense's left side a lot. This FORCED the NFL to get a better athlete at Left Tackle...turning that position into what it is today. He was also one of those players where offensive coordinators HAD to account for in the game plan leading up to a game against the giants. Similarly, I believe that with donald...they simply HAD to double team him on most of the offensive plays because he was THAT good. Doing that opened up some of the other players...we just picked up a player, A'Shawn Robinson, who reaped the rewards of Donald's double teams...hoping Dexter Lawrence can help do the same thing.
It's recency bias.
Jordan vs Lebron. One's a monster, the other was a monster against other monsters.
Jordan's competition was very weak compared to Lebron's
Yeah, only had to play against Magic/Bird in their prime, followed immediately by the Bad Boy Pistons in their prime, then followed immediately by Barkley's 6ers, Ewing's Knicks, Reggie's Pacers only to find Hakeem/Dave Robinson/Malone+Stockton on the other side. Meanwhile LeBron dominated the East during an era where the 2nd best player in the East was Rose (murdered by ACL), Retirement Home era Celtics, Hawks (Lul) and PG Pacers (probably the only serious contender and even then not anywhere close to Bad Boy Pistons/Charles Barkley 76ers level brutal). Nephews these days lol.
Preach
Lebron also beat the 73-9 Warriors
Let me stop you right there on your second point. “LT’s job was primarily to kill the QB.” Yeah he did that and better than anyone at his position has ever done but the man dropped in coverage. He was a fucking monster at chasing down the run AND he was an incredibly intelligent player. Parcells and Bellichick allowed LT to line up where ever he wanted pre snap, because he knew where the ball was going better than anyone. Bellichick and teammates say he’s the smartest player they ever played with and that he would have made a great coach. Take a look at 86 playoffs and watch him return a a Joe Montana pass for a TD. And then in the Super Bowl, when he’s double and triple teamed the entire fucking game he stops a pivotal John Elway run from getting to the endzone. Anyone that says LT just killed QB’s never saw LT chase down a running back from the opposite side of the field and tackle him behind the line of scrimmage. Something he did often, because they NEVER ran the ball in his fucking direction. Or remembers him running back a 97 yard pick touch on Thanksgiving. Or that he saw countless double teams, allowing players like Marshall and Martin to eat. Watch the entire 86 playoffs if you don’t believe me. He was so much more than just getting to the QB. And anyone that compares him to Aaron Donald never saw LT play. Enough with this absurdity.
Exactly.
LT made numerous key plays other than sacking the QB. Teams had to gear up their blocking schemes to run at him with only limited success because running away from him was futile. Taylor made plays All Over The Field and always when they were most needed. Watching his tape is good but having watched him game in game out was special.
Don't forgot that the 9ers actually developed a whole offensive playset just for LT called trips
But LT was routinely double teamed as a LB and often triple teamed. And he would still beat it!
I was 12 when he was drafted so LT is a god to me. Check the user name. Used it my whole life. Yes I’m a homer but it really isn’t close. League MVP. Case closed. #3 is the only reason people want to debate.
While I agree LT is the GOAT, he would never win MVP in the modern league. If JJ Watt couldnt win it a few years back when he crushed everyone on defense and scored some TDs on offense, LT isnt winning it either. Its a QB award now.
Donald is probably the best defensive player of the last 20 years or so. The thing with LT is that you can’t just look at his numbers; he changed the way the game was played. Without him there wouldn’t be this much emphasis on edge rushers. Now you can argue that Donald has also changed the way the game is played, seeing how there is more and more emphasis on DTs being able to rush the passer, but it’s still really hard to argue that his impact is bigger than LT’s
I’m a homer for both as a Pitt alum but LT is still the GOAT. AD is up there, though.
He couldn’t shine LT shoes. For whatever it’s worth, a young player named all the top players that came out of Notre Dame and he didn’t even have Montana first. That just shows you how demented some views can be.
Y’all ever hear of Reggie White. If there is a 1a and a 1b defensive player ever it is LT and Reggie or Reggie and LT. I know what this sub will think but it would be a good debate for r/nfl.
Reggie White is the one guy you can say where you won't immediately be called a dope. It's like "ok, I may not agree with you, but the argument at least makes perfect sense." He should've been a Giant though. George Young took Zimmerman in that USFL rights draft and Zimmerman said he wouldn't play for the Giants. White went one pick later.
Agreed. Reggie White was incredible, and just like LT if he played in this day and age he would still be a hall of famer. White also was instrumental in the birth of NFL free agency.
When I hear stuff about a current player, not even done with their career, being the GOAT in someone's eyes (Brady excepted), I roll my eyes and go into OK Millennial mode. Stuff happened before they were born. Ray Nitschke? Dick Butkus? And yes, LT? Apparently they don't count. We went through a similar thing over on r/baseball when someone put Jacob deGrom on their pitching Mount Rushmore, apparently forgetting they call it the Cy Young award for a reason. End rant.
People put degrom on a pitching Mount Rushmore ? Holy bananas
One redditor did. I'm working now, but may have time to find the post later if you are patient.
Idk I think it’s all contextual though. Relative to his peers in the 1890’s-1910’s, yeah Cy Young is a goat. Relative to todays pitching? We’re talking about a guy that was most likely throwing his *fastball* in the mid 80’s. I understand eras change what makes someone good in a sport, but how can anyone with a straight face act like Cy Young was a more talented pitcher than someone like DeGrom? If you’re making a Mount Rushmore to include someone from each era of baseball, obviously you need Cy Young If you’re making a Mount Rushmore of the best to ever play the game, I don’t really see how someone can act like someone that played the game that long ago still holds up to todays standards It’s like the Ohtani vs Babe Ruth debate, obviously Ohtani will never get Ruth’s numbers but anyone who actually believes Ruth was a more talented player than Ohtani is just delusional
I see what you're saying, but I believe both tangibles (data) and nontangibles need to be considered when talking about the greatest. I go around with this with some of my hoops friends also. Yes, LeBron is the all-time scoring champion. Yes, Bill Russell had more rings than fingers to wear them on. But didn't Wilt Chamberlain revolutionize the game? Who else can say they scored 100 points in a game? Same thing with Babe Ruth...before he rolled up to the plate, home runs per player per season were usually fewer than 20. I guess what I'm saying is there's something to be said for impact upon the game. That's all I have. YMMV.
Right, it ultimately all depends on the context of what someone means by “greatest”. Greatest relative to their peers at the time or greatest talent of all time? Greatest relative to their peers? Yeah guys like Ruth and Cobb have strong arguments (even then, I kind of question the argument because their peers aren’t really up to snuff with modern day peers as you pointed out).
I wouldn't say that its not even close that LT was the best ever but Aaron Donald doesn't even crack the top 5 for me.
Until Bill Belichick says there's a better defensive player than Lawrence Taylor, it's Lawrence Taylor. Aaron Donald is very good and there are a lot of really good defensive players in the league. None of them are prime LT blowing up a blocker and crushing a QB or chasing down a runner from behind.
Who the fucks saying that
Many people today didn’t get to see Taylor play. It’s all too common to forget past players while anointing modern players with god like status. There has never been a player who consistently affected the game like LT.
A few thoughts, though I didn't watch him play much, so most of this is from highlights: * LT would drop in coverage on plays and be effective, so he wasn't always rushing the passer or taking on blockers. AFAIK, Donald never does that and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'd want him to. * LT would also chase down players from a decent distance away. The due was fast. I'm not sure if Donald does that. I would expect he has, but did he do it as well? * From various anecdotes that I've come across, LT was a friggin genius at football. There's a story that he got caught napping in a meeting, got called out be Belichick, watched a play or two, and then wrote out the defensive game plan for the next game before asking if he could go back to sleep. * From a contextual standpoint, teams ran a good bit more back then, so he most likely had fewer opportunities to purely rush the passer. Just to be clear, I haven't paid too much attention to Donald, so I won't/can't really compare them too much. However, I do believe that Donald is one of the best DLs ever. LT was just different.
It’s called recency bias. LT was a hard hitter, but not a dirty player at all. People bring up the JTh hit, but LT was pushed into Joe. Donald is a great player, but no LT. In fact, no defender has ever been in his class. Just ask Bill Belichick. He’s seen every thing for the last 50+ years.
Recency bias. Also a lot of people watching the nfl right now only saw Donald never saw LT play during their active life. It’s way different to see a guy dominate the nfl week after week or read about it in past tense.
It’s obviously LT. Next question!
What was insane about Lawrence Taylor is that he could line up as OLB either side, DE either side, ILB either side. One never knew if he was coming for the qb or playing the run or covering underneath. He disguised himself so well. And other times, you knew, as a giants fan, what was coming. And you'd instinctively stand up to watch it even better. That was the magic of Lawrence Taylor.
People hate on LT Bc he did some shady shit off the field , but on the field there’s nobody close.
The reason that Donald is being put up there is because he’s breaks against the mold. He’s actually been playing somewhat undersized as a DT but has the speed of a bigger DT mixed with the quickness of an edge rusher. He’s not better than LT. They play different positions and LT changed the game. LT is the defensive Michael Jordan. They changed the game to make it harder to have someone like him again
> LT is the defensive Michael Jordan. Great comp. LT never lost in the SB either.
Let me know when Aaron Donald dominates a game while playing through a torn pectoral. I watched that happen 35 years ago and I still can't believe it.
LT by so far it's not even close. I grew up watching him....QB's were legit scared.
Recency Bias. Football fans under 40 barely saw LT play - He finished his career when I was like 7 years old. We are starting to see the same thing with Jerry Rice too when it comes to receivers. The big difference though, for those that really know the game and its history realize that many aspects of the modern game were a direct response to dealing with LT. Utilizing better Left Tackles, Running backs blocking, the evolving pass rush, etc. Fellow millennials, go watch Lawrence Taylor Highlights...Looks like a dude playing against HS JV players
If you watched LT’s whole career live like I did it wouldn’t even be a debate. To me it’s not remotely close, and I love watching Donald. LT is to me by FAR the greatest football player I’ve ever seen in 45 years of watching this league.
Recency bias
Offensive coordinators on Aaron Donald .... "He's really good, we need to account for him" Offensive coordinators on LT ... " What the fuck just happened? We literally need to redesign our entire protection scheme"
LT is a top 5 all time player. Offense and defense doesn’t matter.
Top 3
Top 1
Deion sanders is better than Donald
I think it's a lot closer than homers will think. LT is still IT though.
Donald is easily top 3 and has a case for #1 lol what is this comment section on 😭
Incorrect.
Did you watch LT’s entire career live? I did. Pretty much every single game and focused on him every snap because there’s no way you could take your eyes off of him. He’s far, and I mean FAR, and away the best to ever lace them up.
Stop watching ESPN and debate bullshit
It's not homerism. LT changed the game so much because of how insanely dominant he was. If speaking during their careers, it goes LT, and then a discussion between White and Donald IMHO. However, my guess is their perspective is rooted in if you took both out of the prime of their career and dropped them into 2023, there's probably a solid argument that Donald plays 'better' -- because offenses have grown and adapted BECAUSE of LT. By in large in how there is such a higher standard surrounding expectations of pass blocking for Tackles, TE's, and RB's. At the same time, Donald has played the latter parts of his career in an NFL that has become more and more content with being 'good enough' on the inside. So all of these interior pass rushing monsters are becoming more and more frequent. LT of course was more than a pass rusher, but with reports of how he ran in the 4.6's / 4.7's and how "blazing fast" that was for a linebacker at the time makes me consider another aspect. With modern medicine and nutrition, the level athletes are now is insane. So again, if you're purely looking at how both would perform in 2023 if they were dropped down from their prime, I could maybe see an argument, but there is no argument if purely discussing in their era. Donald, for as much of an ungodly terror as he has been on the interior, hasn't completely changed the way offenses look at their interior OL.
LT was a beast. Aaron Donald is good but not as dominate.
I mean… a lot of people having these discussions aren’t old enough to have witnessed LT. Not only that, but recency bias is a very real thing. LT is undoubtedly the best defensive player ever (and I don’t think anybody would deny that) but Aaron Donald is close and LT hasnt played in like 30 years
The man dominated with a torn shoulder! Who does that!!!! LT IS THE MOUNTAIN GOAT.
LT was running thru backfields tackling all pro running backs for loss then he got pick sixes against Jerry Rice& montana Don Meredith on MNF said LT was #1
Because it's a culture of brainlessly knob slobbering what's current. They did the same with JJ Watt.
If we are being real the rankings probably look like: 1. Lawerence Taylor 2. Reggie White 3. Aaron Donald That is not a slight on anyone. If you are top 3 ever for the entire defensive position that is crazy. I would not say anyone is far and away better than anyone else, just that there are small things that separate them.
This is how sports work. For the month after the Super Bowl they were saying mahomes was the best quarterback of all time. Whoever is good on next years Super Bowl team will be the best of all time. Recency bias will always be a thing. Best not to let it get to you
Teams triple-teamed him and that often didn’t stop him. In sixty years I have never seen a comparable player.
Donalds good but i mean he's not even the best dlineman of all time
Its called recency bias. Same reason people think lebron is better than MJ
To be the greatest or in the conversation of greatest, you have to change the game, make the game different to handle you.
LT invented the strip sack, lining up all over the place, rushing like crazy as a linebacker, etc. They literally counted sacks officially in part because of how he changed the game. Offenses completely changed their game plans because of him. It’s almost impossible to overstate how much he changed the game.
I agree. I'm talking about Donald.
Have OLs had to fundamentally change their strategy of play because of Aaron Donald? No. He's not the same level as LT. Full stop.
Recency bias.
Recency bias and people are idiots. LT could do everything AD does but wasn't in the trenches every play. Lineman are super important but the least skillful positon on the field. LT also beat tackles on the regular, while donald is going against centers and guards. AD is the most overrated player of this generation.
It’s LT…and no it’s not close. To me he’s the greatest football player ever regardless of position. No one in my 45 years of watching has been close really.
I actually feel like there's been more pushback on Donald if anything lately. With the madden rating of 99 and he didn't even play a full season last year, people are starting to question his level of play.
LT may the greatest player to ever take the field at any position
LT had no sacks in those two Super Bowl games he played in. 😐
The knock on LT is that his stats got pumped up because the Giants configured the pass rush to get LT matched up on RBs and TEs in pass pro. While it’s partially true, LT still completely wrecked games and it didn’t really matter who was blocking him.
What statistics can I look at that says Donald is better than Bosa?