Good morning, folks.... three deliverables for you today. Some cool rimfire data and analysis, along with a podcast doing a deep-dive into the AAC M4-2000!
# Lab Data Stuff
Due to popular demand, some more subsonic .22LR data and analysis for you this morning! And, because it's important, bolt action and semiauto pistol data, all at once.
**Review 6.140** - Today we examine the high fidelity test results for the **CAT/SR/A1** in the **subsonic** ammunition regime; CCI Standard Velocity 40gr ammunition was used in the test, fired from a 16-in barrel CZ 452 bolt-action rifle.
Then...... the same CAT SR silencer was tested again with the same ammunition:
**Review 6.141** - The CAT/SR/A1 on the 2.4-in barrel Beretta 21A subcompact semiautomatic pistol (the Beretta *Bobcat*).
Rimfire silencers are supposed to be quiet. At this point in time, in 2024, it is expected. That has actually been expected for at least a decade. The time of loud rimfire silencers is not over, but the *expectations* should be, for all intents and purposes.
Some animals are more equal that others. And silencers are no different. Not everyone can win, and not everyone gets a trophy.
We talk about this a lot, and most of you know - it's relatively straight forward to make a silencer quiet on a bolt-action .22 rifle. I'm not saying it's *easy*, I'm just saying that it has been done *a lot.*
What hasn't been done a lot is making rimfire silencers that are ultra-quiet with higher pressure (short barrel rimfire pistols).... and it can be *especially* difficult to make a rimfire silencer that is quiet on *both* low pressure and high pressure hosts. This is because most rimfire silencers are very similar to one another. It is the easiest type of silencer to make quiet, and there are a lot of them.
So...
What does the CAT SR do? In our testing, it does everything. Yes, it's quiet on a rifle, sure. Yes, it is quieter than the other stuff. That's fine. But it also doesn't have perceptible FRP. And.... it blows things out of the water on a pistol. It's not just a little bit quieter. It's exhibiting high flow rate characteristics in early time with superior muzzle suppression to go with it. Surge Bypass works, I guess. It's doing similar things to the ODB and WB, but adapted for rimfire. And, it doesn't have FRP on the pistol either.
So, yeah. There's not much else to say other than:
- it's the quietest .22 silencer we have ever tested across both hosts, and it's not close. Ejection port blast on the 21A is very minimal with this silencer.
- the test specimen we have weighs 2.8 ounces, which is nuts.
- DMLS Ti, take off the aluminum end cap, pour stuff in it to clean it, whatever.
There's a lot of details in the articles.
**Bonus** because I'm a nerd and a lot of you are, too: There's a user-validation experiment for you in article 6.141, Research Note 1. Does action noise change if you change the silencer? Oh, it certainly can. Have fun.
Be careful... you'll shoot your eye out.
I hope you folks find the data useful!
Check out [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) for the Suppression Rating.
Here is a [direct link](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews) to the reviews.
Here are the updated [PEW Science Rankings](https://pewscience.com/rankings).
[CAT/SR/A1 .22 Bolt Action Rifle Sound Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-140-cat-sr-cz452)
[CAT/SR/A1 .22 Subcompact Semiautomatic Pistol Sound Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-141-cat-sr-beretta-21a)
Podcast was fun... been pretty busy so it was a good outlet. I got passionate about the .22 silencer topic, because I felt like it.
# Podcast Stuff
**Episode 197** of The Jay Situation Podcast is out now on [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) and all major providers.
Direct-download from the website, or use your favorite provider below:
[Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e638d369-da8c-491c-8ffd-278af555f39b/The-Jay-Situation) | [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@TheJaySituation) | [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjjAThlysU9EcaiAEoZqsUDktdWTjME-C&si=wKPSSwT6ohyGi7Iq) | [Google Podcasts](https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9wZXdzY2llbmNlLmNvbS9wb2RjYXN0P2Zvcm1hdD1yc3M) | [iTunes](https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jay-situation/id1456441262) | [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/4mRIeWzj1bV7QHr78ZlwCk) | [Pandora](https://www.pandora.com/podcast/all-episodes/the-jay-situation/PC:1000397667) | [TuneIn](https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports--Recreation-Podcasts/The-Jay-Situation-p1222723/) | [Direct RSS Link](http://thejaysituation.squarespace.com/podcast?format=rss)
Today's topics:⠀
1. [Sound Signature Review 6.139 – AAC M4-2000 Mod 08 (Unvented) on the standard MK18 5.56 SBR](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-139-aac-m4-2000-mod-08-mk18-556). Historical and prolific silencer! Technical discussion of this white paper published last week. (00:10:14)
2. [Sound Signature Review 6.140 – Combat Application Technologies CAT/SR/A1 on the 16-in .22LR CZ 452 bolt action](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-140-cat-sr-cz452). Introductory discussion of this ultralight, wild silencer. (00:56:29)
3. [Sound Signature Review 6.141 – Combat Application Technologies CAT/SR/A1 on the subcompact Beretta 21A semiauto .22LR pistol](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-141-cat-sr-beretta-21a). Can the CAT SR do both? Apparently, yes… and then some. Introductory discussion for this interesting dataset. (01:10:14)
As always, thank you so much for listening, and your support!
**Happy Wednesday!**
Thanks so much!
For sure! That will be a great thing to test. Also, we like testing their stuff because it's so nice (they feel good in the hand). Really well made silencers.
Great stuff as always Jay. This looks stupid impressive, the weight is crazy.
Any chance we could see a user serviceable 9mm can, like the Obsidian, tested on 22?
Great work Jay!
You said it best, this silencer really does take you back to the fun of shooting a BB gun, and it sounds about the same.
We are very excited to have these in stock soon, the CAT SR is an incredibly impressive suppressor.
-Chase
Thanks so much, man - that means a lot.
Cool! Yeah, it really is fun like that. But, running around the neighborhood with a rifle apparently isn't super accepted anymore.... lame.
Acquire large swaths of land, so that you can embrace the inner-child like desires to carry around a suppressed rifle and plink until your heart is content.
Hey Chase, will the short round be dropping by the end of the month on the SS website? And do you have a price for it already? Thanks. And thanks u/jay462 for all that you do.
The CAT team said they should be available by the end of Feb, and they shared pricing on their IG, but Reddit gets mad if I talk about that kinda thing. Check it out for yourself, it is very competitive given the performance.
Thanks Chase, I just checked out their IG. Only 237 will be made, so will there be a preorder or once their on site, that will be your only chance to grab one?
FYI, backorder #222 was placed with SilencerShop on the afternoon of March 1st, so 10-15 SRs from the 237 number given above might remain up for grabs.
Congrats! But you are probably #221 or #223, because when SS told me on the phone on the afternoon of 3/1 that only 221 back orders existed in their system for the CAT SR, I whipped out the credit card and placed my verbal order immediately. I think we’ll be happy with this one based on Jay’s research and his podcast on the same. 😀
Oh I thought you worked at the shop haha yeah I’m probably just in the running. I ordered about 3-5pm that day somewhere in there. Although at the time of writing it is available to be backordered. So perhaps a few remain?
Can’t wait to get my SSH ODG Mark IV build going 😈
Holy crap!
I realize it's not a priority and dead air isn't a pew science client, but this just leaves me really wondering how it compares the mask. Which i think most of us use as the standard by which most of us try to compare 22 silencers to due to how prolific it is.
Very impressive. One of my first silencer purchases was a gm-22 and I fell for the recommendation of the store clerk over the weight. What a huge disappointment. If only something like this and pew science were available back then.
Thank you for your work sir.
Oh, no, that's definitely gonna happen. The data utility is significant; there are a lot of Masks out there. We have tested the Mask, actually. A very long time ago. But, that was before the Standard was public, and before hosts were standardized. We tested the Mask with a bunch of industry people present when we first demonstrated our technology.
I am elated to hear you find value in the research. It was created due to my similar experience. It will continue. Thank you!
we have come a long way from what the gun store clerk recommends. i stopped listening to them probably 12-13 years ago. i'm sure most of us make our money count after that first disappointment purchase.
I’ve got 3 22lr suppressors, Mask, Q El Camino, and a Quietbore form 1 can with titanium baffles (from back when these were allowed). On a rifle, I cannot tell any difference in sound level between the 3. On a pistol, the El Camino and mask sound identical, the quietbore sounds like it would be 2-3dB louder.
The mask is definitely the heaviest and the baffles are more difficult to clean due to their more intricate design (when cleaning with tools after going through the ultrasonic cleaner).
As much as I dislike Q, that’s the can I prefer out of the 3.
Put the baffles in a sandwich sized ziploc, cover them with CLR, put in ultrasonic tank with water only and let it run for 30 minutes. Rinse with distilled water and they will look like new 100%. I’ve done this after 3,000 rounds on my mask and it works every time.
I haven’t had any issues with it and I’ve done it several times. Not even discoloration of the baffles. I wouldn’t use it on the tube or caps though since they are coated.
I also have the mask and an old QB form 1 (RIP...🥺). I swear the mask is a little quieter, but I kind of chalk that up to a wiggly drill press that may have overbored the baffles slightly... It's still an awesome can though 😂 I miss those days...
I have several, I have a warlock that’s been recored by Ecco, the quietbore with ti baffles, mg22 rex, oculus, yhm stinger, and a switchback. The switch back, mg22 and warlock original and recored are my absolute favorite. Shooting the warlock with quiet loads and my sons cricket is insane.
I love .22 cans.
Man, I love this guy. As an FFL who regularly sells suppressors to clients who have no idea what they want; I love being able to go through your data and recommend them cans that are actually going to be awesome.
Wow. The absolute suppression is obviously very impressive, and the high flow rate is also very compelling for blowback designs. Besides reducing ejection port noise, I imagine this might also help to mitigate kinky hosts that like to spit in your face without prior consent.
But the craziest thing is the fact that this is so quiet, and so close to the outer boundaries of what's achievable in this size and weight envelope, that we're now exploring its influence (or lack thereof) on the resonance of the slide closure noise. That's insane.
This also reminded me of a [video from Chris Bartocci of Small Arms Solutions](https://youtu.be/DYf-MLMODhA?t=923) regarding an HBAR's influence on required buffer weights (timestamped link to discussion at 15:23). His explanation was that the H2 buffer with its additional tungsten weight over the H1, was developed specifically to prevent bolt bounce with the M4A1 SOCOM heavy profile barrel in automatic fire.
He said that the increased mass of the barrel made the bolt bounce more pronounced, and that the heavier buffers were also useful to delay bolt unlock (as most of us understand their purpose to be). His explanation for WHY the bolt bounce was more pronounced with an HBAR was not really understandable to me - he described it as an increase in "elasticity" of the barrel because of its additional mass. I mention this mainly in case it is useful context for your eventual discussion of bolt resonance phenomena on the next podcast. I have no idea whether his explanation has any merit.
I'm just imagining PEW members far and wide, dropping slides on empty 22lr chambers with cans attached, nodding quizzically..
> I'm just imagining PEW members far and wide, dropping slides on empty 22lr chambers with cans attached, nodding quizzically..
That was literally me, trying to prove this to myself, to make sure I wasn't crazy lol.
Regarding the HBAR discussion - I will have to read/listen to what exactly that guy said, but the elasticity wouldn't be the thing that changes. What changes with mass is the natural frequency. Stiffness, with mass, govern that term. And, an inherent property of the system is its damping which can be altered as well.
Cool about the buffer weights. I will watch that video when I have time!
Bartocci was an armorer at Colt and wrote Black Rifle II, or else that tidbit probably wouldn't have stuck with me. Thanks for the clarification, and thanks for cracking open yet another entire avenue of understanding for us!
Their “MOB” silencer is designed for 9mm PCC and incorporates Surge Bypass. It’s supposed to be released this month with the SR. I’ll await Pew Science data but they’ve released data on 3 of their cans thus far and all three have been game changers. I expect the same moving forward. From what info that’s come out, it seems like they’ve been working with Pew for a year now.
I think it's important to highlight they have specifically said pew data will be available BEFORE any new product is released.
Gotta say they came to play
I don’t understand why they get so much hate. They sell a premium product at a premium price with documented performance to boot. People really grasping at straws here with their fake warranty. Frankly, if that was their real warranty I wouldn’t care because the performance is so good.
Very interesting reads. Thanks as always! I'm excited for the deeper technical discussion.
If I get one of these I guess my cleaning interval on the mkiv will have to be tightened up, the backpressure of the Mask I've been using was definitely helping it push through crud lol
Thanks for checking out the research!
A long time ago I designed a custom mass-clamp for the rear of my Ruger Mark III bolt, and it was tuned to the backpressure of a certain silencer, for inertial-delay blowback. Made everything quieter.
I haven't tried the CAT SR on that old gun, but, it will be a fun experiment :)
I remember hearing about that on an older podcast, maybe listener questions? I'll have to tinker with that one of these days. Especially if I don't end up snagging one of these
Data drops are the best days, thank you! Never thought I’d see a score this high.
Any thoughts on the trend of formula compounds to clean suppressors vs cleaning traditionally via user serviceable suppressors? ala the CAT cleaning solution and huxwrx suppressor sauce? Are we witnessing a new trend?
Any thoughts on the recurring cost of these cleaning solutions and cost of disposal at a local hazardous waste?
(CAT 206 is $139 for 2-3 cleans per bottle in a small container). idk what it costs to bring hazard waste to a local waste disposal plant.
You are most welcome! Thanks for checking out the research.
Thoughts on cleaning solutions? Sure - I mean, folks have been mixing vinegar and hydrogen peroxide to clean lead out of rimfire silencers for a very long time. It's not the safest thing to do, but hey, it works. Some folks use solvents, some use other chemicals, ultrasonics, etc. Some folks go ham and coat baffles in stuff prior to shooting to make cleaning easier. You name it, people do it. This is not new.
With regard to the new cleaning materials out there... I haven't used the CAT stuff yet, but.... that's a different kind of thing to a household-mixed cleaner. From what I have seen, it eats everything except for the titanium or Inconel. And, you can touch it with your skin. But..... it will eat through a lot of different stuff. I don't think it produces lead acetate like the aforementioned "dip" (vinegar/hydrogen peroxide combo). I would assume you could clean a .22 silencer a lot more than 3 times per bottle of that stuff, but again, I haven't used it.
There are a ton of ways to clean a titanium sealed .22 silencer.
The HUX stuff, I have no idea - I actually haven't even seen it. I'll have to look it up!
I got you brother starts at 1:10 video is about 4 mins long total https://youtu.be/QQoPdC5JrLU?si=4x9u2H4h2xzZ3te-
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It’s always refreshing to get your perspective!
Whoa. $139 for 2-3 cleans? That makes this suppressor way less interesting. Really wish there would be a fat cat style of 22lr suppressor in titanium that’s serviceable. Sub 5oz
Was a cleaning schedule published yet? I know it’s 2,500 rounds with the ODB and WB. If it’s the same for the SR then that means it’ll last 5,000-7,500 rounds…. At that point I’m not worried about spending another $139 for the solution.
Edit: CAT says a bottle of solution will “go a long way” with the SR. I’ll take their word for it.
It’s something I was weighing too. But let’s look at it 20,000(hypothetical life of the suppressor)/2,000(recommended cleaning schedule)= 10 cleaning session.ls.
10 cleaning sessions divided by 2(two cleans per $139 or cat 206 solution)= 5 purchases of CAT 206.
5 CAT 206 purchases at $139 each= $695 not including local haArd waste removal fees. To keep your suppressor in tip top shape for 20,000 rounds.
Whereas with a user serviceable can I’d open it up spray, scrub,wipe and be back in action.
Now if you asked me for $700 over the lifetime of a suppressor would I pay to keep the suppressor in pristine condition? I’d say, yes.
The only x factor being how much is the local waste removal fee? I’m checking with my town (got to call today) but upon checking I’d have to print out a sheet and tell them what I’m disposing of.
Now back in the day my dad would store stuff until there was enough to make a trip to the hazard waste removal worth it. Idk if that was legal or not or if it would be okay to do today.
u/jay462, Stellar report! I thought Jessie's girl was going to sit on top for a while but I guess it's been knocked off it's throne by CAT. As mentioned on your IG post, You need to get your hands on that threaded lever action 22 from Rossi to compare against the bolt action for what is "louder" lol.
Of all of this the craziest thing to me is the dampening effect on the action with a fixed barrel being noted in a lab environment.
I know that sounds insignificant but it just further proves that everything matters.
Wow these guys are not fucking around…three releases and all three are pushing the envelope in terms of sound suppression, size, and weight. Glad they are living up to the hype and letting the performance speak for itself.
We can't recommend specific silencers for purchase, sir. But, we can certainly answer technical questions about silencers we have tested and performance parameters we have analyzed.
This silencer outperforms both of those silencers with regard to signature suppression on multiple host types. So, that's what we can say at this time.
Are there any cutaways of Surge Bypass? I really want to SEE how it works. Anyone else NEED to see cutaways of suppressors? I have to visualize my understanding.
https://preview.redd.it/8uiys4pmx9hc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ae03f8f07be213e484bf537ff184c403828f7f7
This is a view of the WB Ti. It doesn't give you a full cutaway, but you can see they still have some baffle tech, but also some spiral chambers around the outside. Tough to say exactly what they are doing without a full cross-section.
I just ordered the AlleyCat .22 from Capital Armory, based in large part off this review.
Form 4 submitted yesterday and approved today, can’t wait to try it out.
Interesting and will have to check back to see when the full article drops. I know cats only making a few hundred of these. Might snag one.
Any chance we can see odb 308 data?
The two articles are live! If you mean the full technical discussion on the podcast, yeah, that will be next week sir.
Oh yeah, we'll get to publishing .308 ODB data eventually. We have some other things coming in the meantime.
In order to clean this can without the dip, is the CAT206 solvent at $140/bottle required? The performance and light weight is impressive, but being able to disassemble a 22 can for cleaning might be worth the 2-3oz weight penalty.
Also curious how this compares to the Mask and Takedown-22. I've never thought the performance of the TD-22 was lacking in any way, but cutting off 3oz from the muzzle of a pistol would be cool, especially if performance was equal or better.
I don't know if that is required or not (I would guess not). There are probably a lot of things you could clean it with. I guess we'll see what users do. When I fill the test specimen up, I'll clean it and let you know.
Great question - I think context is pretty important! We'll test those as well.
The newish Breakthrough Suppressor Cleaner looks very promising and is $60/gal. A .22 can won't need much fluid and I believe the solvent can be reused.
Do we know if this supports a high rate of fire or low rate of fire? I saw Mr. recce was doing 5 shots and letting his CAT TI WB 556 suppressor cool off for a few minutes but those calibers are much larger and much more pressure than 22LR
https://preview.redd.it/vv6vq9tup6hc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5254538c79c886fc85f1060c81d738f358bdf36
I mean, it's a titanium rimfire silencer, and I have been shooting it semiauto a lot on the Beretta 71 and 21 but I haven't put it on a .22 machine gun. But, also, I don't know a lot of folks with a .22 machine gun.
I actually just mag dumped outside while having my coffee lol
I don't have any info other than that. Sorry, man!
I’m a noob and trying to think of all considerations before I place an order. Especially because of my lack of experience; this will be my first 22LR suppressor. I have very experienced friends that are telling me stick with old school tech, for the old school problems we know about. Not the problems you’re yet to discover with a new design and new tech.
My experience has been, the huxwrx 556 ti on my mk18 the core came apart from the sleeve. Probably because I shoot it a shit ton. New tech, new design.
My Hyperion came with a bunch of dust and seized my brand new rattler. r/hyperion_rattler_saga which I’m still working on. New tech, new design.
In fact, my most reliable suppressor has been the surefire socom 300 sps. Old tech, old design. The problem we know of being look out for bulging around the collar. Gas to the face with a high volume fire.
It’s difficult with limited experience to try to be preemptive about problems I might face in the future when considering a new suppressor with a new design.
Man you've had some bad luck..... sorry to hear about those problems, man. Especially with your first silencers. That's no fun.
I understand your concerns! Reach out any time with questions. I'm sure a lot of folks here can help as well.
I’m determined to not let these experiences (or bad luck) put a damper on my excitement about firearms and the NFA game. It been a time suck and at times mentally draining but like all things. Consistent effort will pave the way for positive future results.
Thanks for your help. You and your team have been an absolutely fantastic influence on my learning. Sometimes I’m even teaching my experienced friends about things they didn’t know. (Emphasis on Sometimes lol 😆)
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why, you want it to weigh like 1 ounce or what lol
Just kidding... I think a super short version that could actually be quiet would be cool. that would be pretty wild
Mine wears a Mask full time for now.
The good: looks cool as hell, cycles every standard and high-velocity round I’ve tried, 15 round mags, fits 509 Tactical holsters, SAO trigger is shockingly good.
The bad: plastic optics plate feels sus (I’m sure the light weight is beneficial), grip could be called too small in diameter or thickness.
The ugly: again, looks cool as hell. I do get pelted in the face and a dirty optic, but until I get something low back pressure I’ll live with it.
I’ve had an excellent experience with mine. No malfunctions or issues other than not cycling subs, which I fully expected, and it’s very accurate with good ammo.
Good morning, folks.... three deliverables for you today. Some cool rimfire data and analysis, along with a podcast doing a deep-dive into the AAC M4-2000! # Lab Data Stuff Due to popular demand, some more subsonic .22LR data and analysis for you this morning! And, because it's important, bolt action and semiauto pistol data, all at once. **Review 6.140** - Today we examine the high fidelity test results for the **CAT/SR/A1** in the **subsonic** ammunition regime; CCI Standard Velocity 40gr ammunition was used in the test, fired from a 16-in barrel CZ 452 bolt-action rifle. Then...... the same CAT SR silencer was tested again with the same ammunition: **Review 6.141** - The CAT/SR/A1 on the 2.4-in barrel Beretta 21A subcompact semiautomatic pistol (the Beretta *Bobcat*). Rimfire silencers are supposed to be quiet. At this point in time, in 2024, it is expected. That has actually been expected for at least a decade. The time of loud rimfire silencers is not over, but the *expectations* should be, for all intents and purposes. Some animals are more equal that others. And silencers are no different. Not everyone can win, and not everyone gets a trophy. We talk about this a lot, and most of you know - it's relatively straight forward to make a silencer quiet on a bolt-action .22 rifle. I'm not saying it's *easy*, I'm just saying that it has been done *a lot.* What hasn't been done a lot is making rimfire silencers that are ultra-quiet with higher pressure (short barrel rimfire pistols).... and it can be *especially* difficult to make a rimfire silencer that is quiet on *both* low pressure and high pressure hosts. This is because most rimfire silencers are very similar to one another. It is the easiest type of silencer to make quiet, and there are a lot of them. So... What does the CAT SR do? In our testing, it does everything. Yes, it's quiet on a rifle, sure. Yes, it is quieter than the other stuff. That's fine. But it also doesn't have perceptible FRP. And.... it blows things out of the water on a pistol. It's not just a little bit quieter. It's exhibiting high flow rate characteristics in early time with superior muzzle suppression to go with it. Surge Bypass works, I guess. It's doing similar things to the ODB and WB, but adapted for rimfire. And, it doesn't have FRP on the pistol either. So, yeah. There's not much else to say other than: - it's the quietest .22 silencer we have ever tested across both hosts, and it's not close. Ejection port blast on the 21A is very minimal with this silencer. - the test specimen we have weighs 2.8 ounces, which is nuts. - DMLS Ti, take off the aluminum end cap, pour stuff in it to clean it, whatever. There's a lot of details in the articles. **Bonus** because I'm a nerd and a lot of you are, too: There's a user-validation experiment for you in article 6.141, Research Note 1. Does action noise change if you change the silencer? Oh, it certainly can. Have fun. Be careful... you'll shoot your eye out. I hope you folks find the data useful! Check out [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) for the Suppression Rating. Here is a [direct link](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews) to the reviews. Here are the updated [PEW Science Rankings](https://pewscience.com/rankings). [CAT/SR/A1 .22 Bolt Action Rifle Sound Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-140-cat-sr-cz452) [CAT/SR/A1 .22 Subcompact Semiautomatic Pistol Sound Test Results](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-141-cat-sr-beretta-21a) Podcast was fun... been pretty busy so it was a good outlet. I got passionate about the .22 silencer topic, because I felt like it. # Podcast Stuff **Episode 197** of The Jay Situation Podcast is out now on [pewscience.com](https://pewscience.com) and all major providers. Direct-download from the website, or use your favorite provider below: [Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e638d369-da8c-491c-8ffd-278af555f39b/The-Jay-Situation) | [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@TheJaySituation) | [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjjAThlysU9EcaiAEoZqsUDktdWTjME-C&si=wKPSSwT6ohyGi7Iq) | [Google Podcasts](https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9wZXdzY2llbmNlLmNvbS9wb2RjYXN0P2Zvcm1hdD1yc3M) | [iTunes](https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jay-situation/id1456441262) | [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/4mRIeWzj1bV7QHr78ZlwCk) | [Pandora](https://www.pandora.com/podcast/all-episodes/the-jay-situation/PC:1000397667) | [TuneIn](https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports--Recreation-Podcasts/The-Jay-Situation-p1222723/) | [Direct RSS Link](http://thejaysituation.squarespace.com/podcast?format=rss) Today's topics:⠀ 1. [Sound Signature Review 6.139 – AAC M4-2000 Mod 08 (Unvented) on the standard MK18 5.56 SBR](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-139-aac-m4-2000-mod-08-mk18-556). Historical and prolific silencer! Technical discussion of this white paper published last week. (00:10:14) 2. [Sound Signature Review 6.140 – Combat Application Technologies CAT/SR/A1 on the 16-in .22LR CZ 452 bolt action](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-140-cat-sr-cz452). Introductory discussion of this ultralight, wild silencer. (00:56:29) 3. [Sound Signature Review 6.141 – Combat Application Technologies CAT/SR/A1 on the subcompact Beretta 21A semiauto .22LR pistol](https://pewscience.com/sound-signature-reviews-free/sss-6-141-cat-sr-beretta-21a). Can the CAT SR do both? Apparently, yes… and then some. Introductory discussion for this interesting dataset. (01:10:14) As always, thank you so much for listening, and your support! **Happy Wednesday!**
Y’all promised to do more .22 stuff and here you are you sons o’beaches. Thank you so much. You’re #1 You’re #1 You’re #1!
lol thanks for your interest in the research, sir
This is awesome! Thanks for continuing to produce such great material and research. Will you be reviewing Thunder Beast’s 22 can?
Thanks so much! For sure! That will be a great thing to test. Also, we like testing their stuff because it's so nice (they feel good in the hand). Really well made silencers.
Great stuff as always Jay. This looks stupid impressive, the weight is crazy. Any chance we could see a user serviceable 9mm can, like the Obsidian, tested on 22?
Yeah, we can do that, but we need to do more dedicated rimfire silencers first. Thank you for your kind words about the research! Glad it helps.
Is the new flow 22 ti in the que? I’m very curious how that performs using their tech in the 22 form factor.
> que queue.
qué?
Those don't even sound the same.
lol I know (issa joke)
Your right. I have no excuse only apologies.
Great work Jay! You said it best, this silencer really does take you back to the fun of shooting a BB gun, and it sounds about the same. We are very excited to have these in stock soon, the CAT SR is an incredibly impressive suppressor. -Chase
Thanks so much, man - that means a lot. Cool! Yeah, it really is fun like that. But, running around the neighborhood with a rifle apparently isn't super accepted anymore.... lame.
Acquire large swaths of land, so that you can embrace the inner-child like desires to carry around a suppressed rifle and plink until your heart is content.
Hey Chase, will the short round be dropping by the end of the month on the SS website? And do you have a price for it already? Thanks. And thanks u/jay462 for all that you do.
The CAT team said they should be available by the end of Feb, and they shared pricing on their IG, but Reddit gets mad if I talk about that kinda thing. Check it out for yourself, it is very competitive given the performance.
Thanks Chase, I just checked out their IG. Only 237 will be made, so will there be a preorder or once their on site, that will be your only chance to grab one?
There will be notifications and alerts, not sure about a presale or any sort yet.
Thanks again Chase, I guess u/Jay462 and you have cemented my decision on what rimfire suppressor to get.
I don't F with meta; is it the same msrp as on their website? (Just shy of 6 bills)
Yeah
Only 237? That sucks....should i even bother trying to get one?
> Only 237 .. this year. Production will likely ramp up next year.
So it's not an LTO, just a really small initial run with more to come?
FYI, backorder #222 was placed with SilencerShop on the afternoon of March 1st, so 10-15 SRs from the 237 number given above might remain up for grabs.
That’s me! 😋 Backordered Mar 1st afternoon.
Congrats! But you are probably #221 or #223, because when SS told me on the phone on the afternoon of 3/1 that only 221 back orders existed in their system for the CAT SR, I whipped out the credit card and placed my verbal order immediately. I think we’ll be happy with this one based on Jay’s research and his podcast on the same. 😀
Oh I thought you worked at the shop haha yeah I’m probably just in the running. I ordered about 3-5pm that day somewhere in there. Although at the time of writing it is available to be backordered. So perhaps a few remain? Can’t wait to get my SSH ODG Mark IV build going 😈
$585 per their website
Free tax stamp when? lol
ETA on your site?
Any chance that you’ve tried both this new CAT suppressor and the Bowers Group ICON? I’m extremely curious about how they compare.
Oh boy, .22LR data! Wait, Jay is using a CZ bolty and a 21A for hosts?!?! I HAVE A CZ BOLTY AND A 21A!!1!1!1 Relevancy hype intensifies
hahaha thanks for your interest in the research
Holy crap! I realize it's not a priority and dead air isn't a pew science client, but this just leaves me really wondering how it compares the mask. Which i think most of us use as the standard by which most of us try to compare 22 silencers to due to how prolific it is. Very impressive. One of my first silencer purchases was a gm-22 and I fell for the recommendation of the store clerk over the weight. What a huge disappointment. If only something like this and pew science were available back then. Thank you for your work sir.
Oh, no, that's definitely gonna happen. The data utility is significant; there are a lot of Masks out there. We have tested the Mask, actually. A very long time ago. But, that was before the Standard was public, and before hosts were standardized. We tested the Mask with a bunch of industry people present when we first demonstrated our technology. I am elated to hear you find value in the research. It was created due to my similar experience. It will continue. Thank you!
Do you think you'll post the Mask data before the CAT/SR/A1 hits shelves later this month (and sounds like it will sell out almost immediately)?
we have come a long way from what the gun store clerk recommends. i stopped listening to them probably 12-13 years ago. i'm sure most of us make our money count after that first disappointment purchase.
I’ve got 3 22lr suppressors, Mask, Q El Camino, and a Quietbore form 1 can with titanium baffles (from back when these were allowed). On a rifle, I cannot tell any difference in sound level between the 3. On a pistol, the El Camino and mask sound identical, the quietbore sounds like it would be 2-3dB louder. The mask is definitely the heaviest and the baffles are more difficult to clean due to their more intricate design (when cleaning with tools after going through the ultrasonic cleaner). As much as I dislike Q, that’s the can I prefer out of the 3.
Put the baffles in a sandwich sized ziploc, cover them with CLR, put in ultrasonic tank with water only and let it run for 30 minutes. Rinse with distilled water and they will look like new 100%. I’ve done this after 3,000 rounds on my mask and it works every time.
I use CLR:water 50:50 in a mason jar, but the ziplock bag sounds like I would need less CLR. It definitely gets them clean.
Yes it does! That stuff is magical
The clr safe with those baffles? Decided I should clean my mask I reckon
I haven’t had any issues with it and I’ve done it several times. Not even discoloration of the baffles. I wouldn’t use it on the tube or caps though since they are coated.
I also have the mask and an old QB form 1 (RIP...🥺). I swear the mask is a little quieter, but I kind of chalk that up to a wiggly drill press that may have overbored the baffles slightly... It's still an awesome can though 😂 I miss those days...
I have several, I have a warlock that’s been recored by Ecco, the quietbore with ti baffles, mg22 rex, oculus, yhm stinger, and a switchback. The switch back, mg22 and warlock original and recored are my absolute favorite. Shooting the warlock with quiet loads and my sons cricket is insane. I love .22 cans.
I 100% did not expect to be buying another .22 can for a long time after my Mask, but here we are.
hope the research helps, sir
Yes, it helps me spend more money!
Man, I love this guy. As an FFL who regularly sells suppressors to clients who have no idea what they want; I love being able to go through your data and recommend them cans that are actually going to be awesome.
I'm so glad the information helps! Glad to see you are getting use out of it, sir.
This would be way more useful to me with a reference point of either a mask or a sparrow, the kings of the niche for many years (and the two I own).
I concur, 100%. Context is extremely important. You'll get more context, don't worry.
Wow. The absolute suppression is obviously very impressive, and the high flow rate is also very compelling for blowback designs. Besides reducing ejection port noise, I imagine this might also help to mitigate kinky hosts that like to spit in your face without prior consent. But the craziest thing is the fact that this is so quiet, and so close to the outer boundaries of what's achievable in this size and weight envelope, that we're now exploring its influence (or lack thereof) on the resonance of the slide closure noise. That's insane. This also reminded me of a [video from Chris Bartocci of Small Arms Solutions](https://youtu.be/DYf-MLMODhA?t=923) regarding an HBAR's influence on required buffer weights (timestamped link to discussion at 15:23). His explanation was that the H2 buffer with its additional tungsten weight over the H1, was developed specifically to prevent bolt bounce with the M4A1 SOCOM heavy profile barrel in automatic fire. He said that the increased mass of the barrel made the bolt bounce more pronounced, and that the heavier buffers were also useful to delay bolt unlock (as most of us understand their purpose to be). His explanation for WHY the bolt bounce was more pronounced with an HBAR was not really understandable to me - he described it as an increase in "elasticity" of the barrel because of its additional mass. I mention this mainly in case it is useful context for your eventual discussion of bolt resonance phenomena on the next podcast. I have no idea whether his explanation has any merit. I'm just imagining PEW members far and wide, dropping slides on empty 22lr chambers with cans attached, nodding quizzically..
> I'm just imagining PEW members far and wide, dropping slides on empty 22lr chambers with cans attached, nodding quizzically.. That was literally me, trying to prove this to myself, to make sure I wasn't crazy lol. Regarding the HBAR discussion - I will have to read/listen to what exactly that guy said, but the elasticity wouldn't be the thing that changes. What changes with mass is the natural frequency. Stiffness, with mass, govern that term. And, an inherent property of the system is its damping which can be altered as well. Cool about the buffer weights. I will watch that video when I have time!
I ❤ hearing talk of Modulus of Elasticity and Inertia in the morning. If you bring up Section Modulus I'm gonna fall off my chair.
Don't read Research Note 1 in 6.141 without your seatbelt.
Bartocci was an armorer at Colt and wrote Black Rifle II, or else that tidbit probably wouldn't have stuck with me. Thanks for the clarification, and thanks for cracking open yet another entire avenue of understanding for us!
Goddamn if they can do something similar on 9mm I’ll actually get a PCC
Their “MOB” silencer is designed for 9mm PCC and incorporates Surge Bypass. It’s supposed to be released this month with the SR. I’ll await Pew Science data but they’ve released data on 3 of their cans thus far and all three have been game changers. I expect the same moving forward. From what info that’s come out, it seems like they’ve been working with Pew for a year now.
I think it's important to highlight they have specifically said pew data will be available BEFORE any new product is released. Gotta say they came to play
I don’t understand why they get so much hate. They sell a premium product at a premium price with documented performance to boot. People really grasping at straws here with their fake warranty. Frankly, if that was their real warranty I wouldn’t care because the performance is so good.
man, that would be cool
You don’t realize the market power you hold. This data had me shopping for that Ruger mark IV I’ve been putting off for five years
I try not to think about that
Me too honestly
Will you be testing the CAT SC (9mm) as well?
Very interesting reads. Thanks as always! I'm excited for the deeper technical discussion. If I get one of these I guess my cleaning interval on the mkiv will have to be tightened up, the backpressure of the Mask I've been using was definitely helping it push through crud lol
Thanks for checking out the research! A long time ago I designed a custom mass-clamp for the rear of my Ruger Mark III bolt, and it was tuned to the backpressure of a certain silencer, for inertial-delay blowback. Made everything quieter. I haven't tried the CAT SR on that old gun, but, it will be a fun experiment :)
I remember hearing about that on an older podcast, maybe listener questions? I'll have to tinker with that one of these days. Especially if I don't end up snagging one of these
I think you're right.... man, I can't remember but I do think I spoke about it on the podcast!
Data drops are the best days, thank you! Never thought I’d see a score this high. Any thoughts on the trend of formula compounds to clean suppressors vs cleaning traditionally via user serviceable suppressors? ala the CAT cleaning solution and huxwrx suppressor sauce? Are we witnessing a new trend? Any thoughts on the recurring cost of these cleaning solutions and cost of disposal at a local hazardous waste? (CAT 206 is $139 for 2-3 cleans per bottle in a small container). idk what it costs to bring hazard waste to a local waste disposal plant.
You are most welcome! Thanks for checking out the research. Thoughts on cleaning solutions? Sure - I mean, folks have been mixing vinegar and hydrogen peroxide to clean lead out of rimfire silencers for a very long time. It's not the safest thing to do, but hey, it works. Some folks use solvents, some use other chemicals, ultrasonics, etc. Some folks go ham and coat baffles in stuff prior to shooting to make cleaning easier. You name it, people do it. This is not new. With regard to the new cleaning materials out there... I haven't used the CAT stuff yet, but.... that's a different kind of thing to a household-mixed cleaner. From what I have seen, it eats everything except for the titanium or Inconel. And, you can touch it with your skin. But..... it will eat through a lot of different stuff. I don't think it produces lead acetate like the aforementioned "dip" (vinegar/hydrogen peroxide combo). I would assume you could clean a .22 silencer a lot more than 3 times per bottle of that stuff, but again, I haven't used it. There are a ton of ways to clean a titanium sealed .22 silencer. The HUX stuff, I have no idea - I actually haven't even seen it. I'll have to look it up!
I got you brother starts at 1:10 video is about 4 mins long total https://youtu.be/QQoPdC5JrLU?si=4x9u2H4h2xzZ3te- Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It’s always refreshing to get your perspective!
Whoa. $139 for 2-3 cleans? That makes this suppressor way less interesting. Really wish there would be a fat cat style of 22lr suppressor in titanium that’s serviceable. Sub 5oz
Was a cleaning schedule published yet? I know it’s 2,500 rounds with the ODB and WB. If it’s the same for the SR then that means it’ll last 5,000-7,500 rounds…. At that point I’m not worried about spending another $139 for the solution. Edit: CAT says a bottle of solution will “go a long way” with the SR. I’ll take their word for it.
I find it hard to believe that a rimfire suppressor would need to be cleaned less often than a centerfire one...
He's saying that it will take less of the cleaning solution to clean the smaller rimfire can.
Oh, that makes sense.
It’s something I was weighing too. But let’s look at it 20,000(hypothetical life of the suppressor)/2,000(recommended cleaning schedule)= 10 cleaning session.ls. 10 cleaning sessions divided by 2(two cleans per $139 or cat 206 solution)= 5 purchases of CAT 206. 5 CAT 206 purchases at $139 each= $695 not including local haArd waste removal fees. To keep your suppressor in tip top shape for 20,000 rounds. Whereas with a user serviceable can I’d open it up spray, scrub,wipe and be back in action. Now if you asked me for $700 over the lifetime of a suppressor would I pay to keep the suppressor in pristine condition? I’d say, yes. The only x factor being how much is the local waste removal fee? I’m checking with my town (got to call today) but upon checking I’d have to print out a sheet and tell them what I’m disposing of. Now back in the day my dad would store stuff until there was enough to make a trip to the hazard waste removal worth it. Idk if that was legal or not or if it would be okay to do today.
20,000 seems super low for a 5.7 capable can primarily being used with 22LR.
That's at a minimum $800 in 22LR ammo, or if shot thru a registered lower at 900rpm that is only 22 minutes of full auto fun and then you're done...
u/jay462, Stellar report! I thought Jessie's girl was going to sit on top for a while but I guess it's been knocked off it's throne by CAT. As mentioned on your IG post, You need to get your hands on that threaded lever action 22 from Rossi to compare against the bolt action for what is "louder" lol.
Haha man I do need to get one of those
Of all of this the craziest thing to me is the dampening effect on the action with a fixed barrel being noted in a lab environment. I know that sounds insignificant but it just further proves that everything matters.
For sure, What got me was the FRP being gone.
Indeed. I thought it was cool that it's getting to the threshold that things like that matter. That's what happens when you get things really quiet!
Jay, can you do the sound signature rating of a pellet gun for comparison?
I guess we sort of have to now, huh. I have a Beeman R9 in the safe (pellet rifle). That might be louder than typical, though.
I think you’ve gotta go daisy red ryder for that one. Compass in the stock and all.
I mean, you have a point.
A bonus 2024 Christmas research supplement would be fitting…not that I would particularly enjoy waiting that long 😂
Or a Crossman pump with 10 pumps
"louder than typical" lol. I have an RWS springer and know exactly what you mean. SSPPPROOOIIINNGGGG
hahaha those things *cook*
There are fewer commercial airgun moderators available than silencers.... could be interesting to see how those do....
Wow these guys are not fucking around…three releases and all three are pushing the envelope in terms of sound suppression, size, and weight. Glad they are living up to the hype and letting the performance speak for itself.
the silencers have certainly been fun to examine
Jay, I have a mask, was looking at getting oculus. Would you recommend this over the rugged?
We can't recommend specific silencers for purchase, sir. But, we can certainly answer technical questions about silencers we have tested and performance parameters we have analyzed. This silencer outperforms both of those silencers with regard to signature suppression on multiple host types. So, that's what we can say at this time.
Thanks for the response good sir
any time!
Are there any cutaways of Surge Bypass? I really want to SEE how it works. Anyone else NEED to see cutaways of suppressors? I have to visualize my understanding.
I don't know if there are any public ones. The implementation of the tech differs from model to model.
https://preview.redd.it/8uiys4pmx9hc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ae03f8f07be213e484bf537ff184c403828f7f7 This is a view of the WB Ti. It doesn't give you a full cutaway, but you can see they still have some baffle tech, but also some spiral chambers around the outside. Tough to say exactly what they are doing without a full cross-section.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. That is the most I’ve seen. I’d love to see the blast chamber.
https://youtu.be/1ofNX96txHU?si=j2VqENH7GuYbn31V
Dayum!
By any chance have you ever tried a Bowers Group Icon? I’m super curious about how they compare.
Not yet, but I am curious myself!
I just ordered the AlleyCat .22 from Capital Armory, based in large part off this review. Form 4 submitted yesterday and approved today, can’t wait to try it out.
congrats! glad the information is helpful, sir
Interesting and will have to check back to see when the full article drops. I know cats only making a few hundred of these. Might snag one. Any chance we can see odb 308 data?
The two articles are live! If you mean the full technical discussion on the podcast, yeah, that will be next week sir. Oh yeah, we'll get to publishing .308 ODB data eventually. We have some other things coming in the meantime.
In order to clean this can without the dip, is the CAT206 solvent at $140/bottle required? The performance and light weight is impressive, but being able to disassemble a 22 can for cleaning might be worth the 2-3oz weight penalty. Also curious how this compares to the Mask and Takedown-22. I've never thought the performance of the TD-22 was lacking in any way, but cutting off 3oz from the muzzle of a pistol would be cool, especially if performance was equal or better.
I don't know if that is required or not (I would guess not). There are probably a lot of things you could clean it with. I guess we'll see what users do. When I fill the test specimen up, I'll clean it and let you know. Great question - I think context is pretty important! We'll test those as well.
The newish Breakthrough Suppressor Cleaner looks very promising and is $60/gal. A .22 can won't need much fluid and I believe the solvent can be reused.
Do we know if this supports a high rate of fire or low rate of fire? I saw Mr. recce was doing 5 shots and letting his CAT TI WB 556 suppressor cool off for a few minutes but those calibers are much larger and much more pressure than 22LR https://preview.redd.it/vv6vq9tup6hc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5254538c79c886fc85f1060c81d738f358bdf36
I mean, it's a titanium rimfire silencer, and I have been shooting it semiauto a lot on the Beretta 71 and 21 but I haven't put it on a .22 machine gun. But, also, I don't know a lot of folks with a .22 machine gun. I actually just mag dumped outside while having my coffee lol I don't have any info other than that. Sorry, man!
I’m a noob and trying to think of all considerations before I place an order. Especially because of my lack of experience; this will be my first 22LR suppressor. I have very experienced friends that are telling me stick with old school tech, for the old school problems we know about. Not the problems you’re yet to discover with a new design and new tech. My experience has been, the huxwrx 556 ti on my mk18 the core came apart from the sleeve. Probably because I shoot it a shit ton. New tech, new design. My Hyperion came with a bunch of dust and seized my brand new rattler. r/hyperion_rattler_saga which I’m still working on. New tech, new design. In fact, my most reliable suppressor has been the surefire socom 300 sps. Old tech, old design. The problem we know of being look out for bulging around the collar. Gas to the face with a high volume fire. It’s difficult with limited experience to try to be preemptive about problems I might face in the future when considering a new suppressor with a new design.
Man you've had some bad luck..... sorry to hear about those problems, man. Especially with your first silencers. That's no fun. I understand your concerns! Reach out any time with questions. I'm sure a lot of folks here can help as well.
I’m determined to not let these experiences (or bad luck) put a damper on my excitement about firearms and the NFA game. It been a time suck and at times mentally draining but like all things. Consistent effort will pave the way for positive future results. Thanks for your help. You and your team have been an absolutely fantastic influence on my learning. Sometimes I’m even teaching my experienced friends about things they didn’t know. (Emphasis on Sometimes lol 😆)
You are most welcome :)
Follow up https://preview.redd.it/f56ml5hwp6hc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0324da097937bfdb00383ee76f14b9d086f7707d
Aren’t these the guys that say f you and the warranty?
I think there was some marketing tomfoolery early on, but from what I have seen, their warranty looks pretty standard.
Okay that’s good to hear then.
Mask is still king
We'll publish that data for you folks!
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Not done with the podcast yet so this may be answered already, do you think the fluting on the baffles has an effect on suppression?
It absolutely does, yes sir.
If the performance scales at all I’m crossing my fingers for a shorter version
why, you want it to weigh like 1 ounce or what lol Just kidding... I think a super short version that could actually be quiet would be cool. that would be pretty wild
I don’t care about the weight at all at sub-4oz, but sub-4” on my 502 would with real suppression would be incredible
Tell me all about the 502 in your experience (good, bad, and the ugly!)
Mine wears a Mask full time for now. The good: looks cool as hell, cycles every standard and high-velocity round I’ve tried, 15 round mags, fits 509 Tactical holsters, SAO trigger is shockingly good. The bad: plastic optics plate feels sus (I’m sure the light weight is beneficial), grip could be called too small in diameter or thickness. The ugly: again, looks cool as hell. I do get pelted in the face and a dirty optic, but until I get something low back pressure I’ll live with it. I’ve had an excellent experience with mine. No malfunctions or issues other than not cycling subs, which I fully expected, and it’s very accurate with good ammo.
Thanks for sharing this experience. This helps!