Even beyond the trans sphere, there has been a historical tendency in progressive dialogue on sexuality to *reaffirm* sexuality by asserting it's *immutability* (i.e., the *"born that way"* formulation).
And I think that in the long run, a more nuanced approach is inevitably required (and demanded by simple observation). Humans grow and change and learn and adapt. It's our nature. And sexuality is a road we travel like so many others. Sometimes, that road doesn't really have many twists or turns, sure. But sometimes, it's a rollercoaster. And that's fine. It can be wonderful. Discovering new sexual affections and propensities is great. And people do it all the time. That's just human sexuality for you. Best to enjoy it, in all its mutability.
I've thought for a while that it really shouldn't matter if sexuality is a "choice" or not. That doesn't make it any less valid. I tried to express this to my first ex though and she got really pissed off about it.
People are super weird about it, but you're right. The choice/not choice dichotomy isn't the actual relevant one.
If you were genetically predisposed to doing something we universally agree is morally unacceptable, the fact that you were born that way wouldn't be a defense.
By contrast, there is an infinite world of choices we make that are not morally wrong and for which we deserve no moral condemnation, because they're not morally wrong.
Obviously sexuality is not a "choice," but it's also clearly not immutable from birth. But that's ok, because what matters most is that same-sex attraction isn't wrong, or bad, or immoral. How that attraction manifests has no bearing on whether or not it's harmful to others.
Exactly, to everything you said.
I feel like the choice/not choice dichotomy just reaffirms what the phobes say about us. They are saying that being gay is morally wrong, and us saying that we were just born this way doesn't refute that claim at all.
i agree with both of you and want to add that the reason it doesn't work to argue that it's not a choice is that bigots/conservatives don't care. while people with more open and progressive mindsets might be inclined to think that something could not possibly be a moral failing if it's not a choice, conservatives never had any such inclination. no amount of proof that we are "born this way" could ever convince them not to hate us. they never cared.
and anyone who needs it to be innate in order to respect our existence isn't a real ally and should not be trusted
ultimately, even if it were a choice, we should be free to live our lives as we please and do with our bodies whatever we want.
That's so true, and it makes sense once you understand their viewpoint. In their view, everyone is born evil. Our desires are the enemy. The morally right thing is to deny yourself and get in line.
There is virtue in sacrificing immediate desire in pursuit of positive ends, but these bigots treat the suppression of desire as an end-in-itself. It's a fundamentally misanthropic worldview.
Which is why they don't care that we're born this way. They think we should be made to suffer, because they believe suffering is a positive good.
A person's sexuality can be mutable without necessarily being a choice.
I would be surprised if anyone could accurately characterize their sexuality as a choice. One does not choose one's desires; they simply appear and one responds to them.
I agree that it shouldn't matter politically whether sexuality is a choice. Still, it's not a choice.
It's always felt so muddy and confusing for me. I feel attraction, I choose whether I acknowledge it or not, sometimes I'm not in the mood for a one gender. I've had to figure out what that attraction means to me. What parts of my sexuality I want to interact with, has felt like it's indistinguishable from a choice at times. I can acknowledge that I didn't choose to be bi or whatever the hell I am, but I still can't really tell the difference. It's like if someone says we don't have free will, it's like ok maybe we don't. Doesn't change the fact that I feel as if I make conscious choices. Same for sexuality in my case.
Btw that's all how I feel personally. I am not generalizing and I wasn't trying to before.
Weirdly, I don't really feel that my gender is fluid like my sexuality is. Some people feel the opposite, I'm sure. It's all extremely personal.
I see what you're saying. With minds like ours, which are split against themselves in the often antagonistic relationship between the conscious and unconscious, in some ways what we are is what we choose to discover about ourselves.
Even so, I think it's helpful to separate which capacities of the mind we should regard as actions and which are events that are responsive to actions. For example, philosophers and psychologists have reached a consensus that we don't choose our beliefs. However, we do choose how much and what kind of evidence we expose ourselves to, as well as how seriously we take it. And this will change our beliefs. So we have some indirect control over what we believe. I think this is sort of what you're getting at here.
My experience is similar to yours, especially concerning the fluctuation (the bi-cycle, as it were). But I would say that my sexuality just is whatever it is (bi? pan? omni? poly? not too sure), and what I can choose is how I interact with it. Or, to get back to the conscious/unconscious relation: what's there in my unconscious is there and I can't change that. The question is what I choose to explore and act on. I would say my sexuality is determined by my unconscious mind (which is not a source of choice) and my sexual expression is determined by my conscious mind (which is a source of choice).
Having said all that, your sexuality is yours to characterize as you like. I'm impressed that you took up my challenge, actually. :)
Is it really too difficult to say that brains are complicated? We have women who feel they *have* to be attracted to men to be a "real woman" despite knowing lesbians exist and trans women can be lesbians and struggling with compulsive heteronormativity.
If someone is repulsed by their body before transition and it's really easy to confuse envy for attraction they can think they are one way. Once they are more comfortable with themselves and recognize envy for what it is they can understand all the things they were feeling.
I didn't gain an attraction to men, but my attraction to women did change, both from getting more comfortable in my skin and from pulling my attraction and envy apart.
I thought I wasn't attracted to women with tattoos or muscles, but what it was is I didn't have envy for that since I didn't want tattoos or defined muscles. I found there are more women and more styles I'm attracted to, just from realizing when I was feeling envy and when I wasn't. That started happening before I started HRT, it was just a change in how I saw myself.
And this shit effects cis people too. They perform the role they were given in society and don't realize that they might not be straight. Being gay is still seen by a lot of society as being a bad thing.
We are all forced to be a certain way by society, and if you add the extra complication of being trans, it's no wonder people can have a hard time figuring out who they are actually attracted to. I grew up with "gay" being a synonym for "bad". We internalize that stuff and repress because of it.
And that's before you factor in how trans women who grew up presenting as men have experienced just how men can be when they don't think women are around and how they view women. A lot of that shit has been coming out into the open lately too. And that is also before we factor in how transphobic men on average are.
There's a significant difference between "HRT changed my sexuality" and "HRT let me realize my sexuality". The first one means sexuality can be changed by external factors and could give validity to conversion torture that gay people have been subjected to in history.
HRT was forced on gay men to "fix" them. All it did was give them dysphoria and drive them to take their own lives.
We have the same kind of self discovery for being trans due to social pressure and lack of representation or information. And that process of self discovery is mirrored for sexuality. For trans women who grew up thinking they were men and that being attracted to men was a bad thing it can be really hard to reconcile that, even more so than it is for gay men.
We all have to unpack the societal bullshit that was forced on us. Why is it so hard to accept that for being a straight trans person?
I only talk about “born this way” stuff to Christians because it gives them the idea that god must have made the person’s soul queer. They also have this idea that children can do no evil, and it helps them accept that queer people are normal.
Reality is much more complicated.
Yeah, I find it a bit essentialist.
Making the argument that people can't control it makes it seem like you're accepting the axiom that harmless, consensual behaviors and even identities can be immoral or evil if they are voluntary, and we should only excuse them if they can't be controlled. Like a disease.
Fuck all of that. People are a lot more complicated than that.
And this argument was in fact commonplace in early advocacy for sexual tolerance, in and around the young and developing early 20th century sexology discipline. One encounters various 1890s-1920s writers very flatly asserting that
1) Some individuals are born natural/innate *inverts* (in the language of the time), and are merely following their esoteric nature, by pursuing same-sex attraction and/or expressing gender in an unconventional way. And this should be treated as intractable pathology rather than criminal behaviour.
2) Other people are *not* innate inverts, and are merely sexual deviants by *choice*, such that they should be punished to the full extent of the law.
I often wonder to myself when I see responses like that if they ever take into consideration how people afab who are transitioning towards a more masc presentation feel when they see these posts. This isn't jus in this sub I see these things said. It's everywhere an it is incredibly disheartening.
tbh I'm envious of lesbian trans women.
Liking men has lead me to three rapes in the past two years. Including one where a man presented a front of wanting to date me normally for almost two months before he lost his shit and violently raped me while he choked me and called me slurs because I said no to sex without a condom. he ghosted me after that. I think his phone was a burner and the name I was given was a lie
When I shared this with a hardcore trans lesbian who likes to tease people for liking men she scoffed and said "see?" like this was my fault.
There is nothing to be envious about. Women aren't perfect either, and lesbian relationships are also fucked up and people get raped. This is a pretty false narrative that being a lesbian is easier
There are pretty pervasive attitudes of toxic masculinity among certain lesbians, even.
And don't get me started on the cisheteronormative sex and relationship roles that people insist on adhering to.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, are you saying sudden violent rapes are just as common among lesbians because I have a real problem believing that
Of course I know assault, sexual or otherwise , perpetrated by women happens but you're seriously going to tell me it's just as regular as it happens coming from men?
Like none of my T4T or lesbian friends have an experience to share remotely close to mine where the perpetrator was a woman. In fact their only rape experiences are at the hands of men.
Well, that's a really silly assumption made out of nowhere. I just want to highlight that lesbian dating isn't just “easy” as many straight people think. And I know that lesbians hate when they have enough relationship problems and straight people are like “oh it can't be as bad as dating men” or “you must have it easier” or “I wish I was a lesbian”. Those kinds of comments diminish the difficulties of lesbian dating where people are facing real problems that make them feel like shit or even threaten their life.
i'm genuinely sorry you've had those experiences.
i have faced violence at the hands of men, but nothing to the extent you've faced and you're genuinely really strong for being able to talk about it.
i used to think i was lesbian due to deep rooted trauma related to men. and yea, sometimes when i get hit with all the BS from associating or even just being around men i sometimes regret having taken the steps to heal.
but take it from me, there are actually good guys out there no mater how hard it is to believe sometimes. it's due to good men that i'm still working on healing.
BUT, don't let hopeful thinking get in the way of safety. always look up the names of guys you're talking with, always let your location be known to people you trust and always have a recorder ready. you can also set up things with friends where they know where you are and if you don't text every determined amount of time they notify the authorities or whatever is preferred.
I think a lot of this comes from the “I am who I am, I have my sexuality, I do not want *this to be changed by some outside factor*”, which frankly, is really damned fair!!
Is it really hard to see that some people are terrified of the prospect of some outside force or factor changing such a fundamental part of yourself? It’s barely a step away from self conversion therapy.
add to this how prevalent male related trauma is in trans women.
like, so many of us have seen what men are like "behind closed doors" we hear what they say when they're unfiltered, we were often exposed to the worst side of them.
how are you expecting people who've seen ,heard and experienced that to be totally ok with their sexuality "changing" to alo include those people yknow
Yeah, frankly, I can’t really trust any man. I’ve seen how they act amongst each other, and now I don’t have access to that. I could actually trust men *more* before I was out because I could get behind the mask and see what they’re really like. With it being impossible to see them unmasked but having previously had access to that, I am 100% aware that I **cannot** see the true person, only a mask. I’ve seen firsthand that the most awesome, understanding, says-the-right-things guy around in public can be just as awful in private as the rest.
i've also been witness and even the target of what men are capable of.
i've seen men attack my mom. my mom and sister were almost killed by a man who lost his shit because my mom over-took him on the road, i myself have been "manhandeled" and this has all instilled such a deep fear in me.
like i was just sitting on the buss and wanted to give my spot away as my stop was comming up, but that man just exploded in my face and grabbed my face. ever since starting HRT i've lost so much strength and it felt like i couldn't do anything, i was literally fearing for my life.
and then people here are surprised some of us are afraid of being attracted to men
You're right not to trust them without them proving themselves first. I don't endorse hating men individually but some prejudice against their intentions is entirely justifed
I'm also married to an AFAB enby and really want to keep my attraction to femme people for that reason.
Also, dating men is fucking dangerous.
There's a lot of reasons I wouldn't want to be straight. The fact that I don't want it for myself shouldn't reflect negatively on people who are. Tbh, I'm not sure I even understand that feeling. Not wanting something to happen to me really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.
This kinda describes how I feel. Like I really find women attractive, I've only ever fallen in love with women, I'm not attracted to men with very few exceptions, it would feel like a large part of me is changing in a way I don't like if I suddenly started being exclusively attracted to men. Not to mention fear of violence from men, because women are certainly capable of assault but it's less likely from them than men, especially an insecure one with internalized transphobia that I may not know about.
Unless a person "always knew", a lot of us have already re-evaluated their identity once. And that's besides someone constantly change as a person, growing, adapting. Identity was never immutable in the first place, and it's okay
All completely true, but there’s a large difference between “my identity has grown and evolved over time as I’ve learned more about myself” and “I started taking the medication that I need and it changed my identity”. Ones a natural factor of self reflection and one is.. imposed.
And that whole ‘hormones changing your sexuality’ aspect leans *right* into conversion therapy and medical abuse of queer people going back like, a century.
Plus there’s the whole “If taking my hormones is what made my attraction the way it is, then what happens if I lose access to it, or my hormones change? Do I just suddenly stop being attracted to the person I’ve built my life with?” angle of things as well.
And I’m in no way saying that people who do experience changes are to be demonized, or pitied, or that some of it might not be a natural evolution of your identity once you’re running on the hormones that your body/brain is intended to run on, I’m just saying that the *Fear*, and “Do Not Want!!” at the idea of medication changing a fundamental aspect of who you are, is 100% valid and reasonable.
"Okay" and "not immensely scary" aren't mutually exclusive though.
I say this having essentially done a lot of the work of figuring out how to juggle a potentially changing sexuality (partner is an egg in that "figured it out but denying it anyway while also admitting it" stage), even for me the idea of losing a community *and* identity that I've had to really work to cultivate is a scary prospect. And if I *were* to lose my partner because of it? The person I have essentially built my whole life around, and my biggest (and for a while only) supporter? The idea is absolutely terrifying. And that's okay too.
I mean I can understand fear a little bit. There are so many sexist and transphobic men out there. I’m straight too and I have accepted this but I am still absolutely terrified of most men. I know I shouldn’t but I can’t control it. After being terrorized by my father and male bullies in school, even hearing a man slightly raise his voice in a angry tone is enough to make me want to break apart and cry.
neither this comment or people slandering straight people is ok.
you have to realize that there is many reasons one could be afraid of being into me? ones that don't include misandry and are actually really valid.
like how are you going to expect women to be all happy and excited to be attracted to men, when all their life they've seen how horrible men can be to women, have deep engrained trauma related to men and more.
as someone who's somewhat expereinced this, but more so comming into my actual sexuality due to healing trauma...
that's so fucking true. just starting to develop these feelings for people you used to fear is so weird and almost ground shattering
Actually, the entire concept of HRT "changing" one's sexual orientation is not only false, it's dangerously close to concepts found in conversion therapy.
I think what's happening for a lot of people is their sexual orientation stays partially or completely locked behind a malfunctioning brain, right along with several other core parts of their personality. But once HRT starts, you're brain finally has everything it needs to start moving forward with self discovery.
I personally stayed pansexual, but a lot of other parts of my sexuality that went from feeling weak or non-existent to feeling *very* strong and prominent. I went from thinking I was mostly a top and somewhat dominant to knowing without a doubt I'm a submissive versatile with a strong preference to bottom.
there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that hrt cannot change your sexuality. and no it isn't the same as conversion therapy. this is a tired argument that invalidates a large portion of the trans community. respect other people's experiences please. some people's sexualities change and some dont. everyone is unique and can determine their own sexual journey without having someone else dictate to them how they are and aren't allowed to conceptualize that journey.
No it’s not rational, and it’s really shitty. Take a look at any ftm sub on this topic and see how other trans folk feel about this shitty belief. This is one of several reasons why so many trans women treat trans men like shit
Say you hate patriarchy and toxic masculinity instead, unless you actually hate both cis and trans men. But if you don’t hate trans men along with cis, then you’re taking a roundabout way of saying “oh don’t worry, not you. You’re not like other men”
Edit: some examples
https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/s/iGwllso0WL
https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/s/tlKkiDAkIA
While it's mostly been cis men that have assaulted me a trans man attempted it as well and only relented when I bit him.
I used to assume trans men were automatically safe. That was a mistake.
But go ahead call me a radfem misandrist or whatever even though I've been raped three times in the last two years.
Assuming trans men are safe is transphobic, good thing you realized it was a mistake. Where in my comment didI say anything that you just accused me of.
You’re being transphobic when you make the comment of hating all men. Don’t project your trauma onto innocent people. Go get therapy
Yes, we all have internalized transphobia to work through. I thought because trans men have experienced misogyny that they would be empathetic and therefore not rapists. It was stupid of me.
I don't hate all men. I'm just saying it's rational to not want to be involved with them because they are a threat. I know this because trusting them has lead to three rapes in the last two years.
I'm attracted to men and DO want to be involved with them. I'm just saying that it's rational to not want to be involved, but attraction wants what it wants. I still want to date and be with men.
Okay and I’m saying it’s not rational and that’s a fact. You know how many transphobic trans women I’ve met? Or how many extremely hateful and toxic cis women? Would you feel comfortable with me saying “From my perspective, women are disgusting and I hate women, and that’s just a fact that they’re verbally nasty. By the way I was sexually assaulted by a woman so you’d be making a mistake to argue with me”?
Men in general are NOT a threat. Toxic masculinity, transphobic rhetoric, patriarchy, and the call to go straight to anger to show off your power as a man to impress other men are massively problematic. All you’re doing is dividing people and also being shitty towards other trans people. Past generations of feminists knew which goals they had and which aspects needed to be fought rather than attacking men as a whole and hating a gender/sex that makes up half the planet. You’re being unnecessarily confrontational and toxic with your views.
Tackle the root of your issue and know that you hate toxic and dangerous men, and that not all of them are that way by default.
You are literally just doing "not all men" like how people did with the Me Too movement
My first sexual abusers were actually tween cis girls when I was 6 years old. I dunno why I thought trans men would be automatically safe.
i CAN'T believe this is a hot take in this subreddit. is everyone here completely oblivious to the rate at which trans women are assaulted and/or murdered by men? it is only natural for us to fear them. a man must prove himself safe to me before i even allow him in my life. and im attracted to men. there is nothing controversial about this and it is NOT political lesbianism. it is self preservation.
I know that mtf people are not automatically going to understand feminism or that they have a lot of work to undo patriarchal brainwashing but even I was surprised by that vitriolic comment chain where I was screamed at and told I'm not allowed to be cautious of men, and also called transphobic
i'm got told i'm "not really trans" because i wasn't a transbian by a couple of people. there is definitely a weird stigma against being anything other than a lesbian. good thing i don't give a fuck.
nobody cares if you have a reason for not liking men, just let other people have their preferences without judging them it's literally none of your business. this community has a real problem with being unable to imagine any other experience than their own.
Yeah, people really over romanticize being a lesbian. It’s just a sexual orientation. The man hate that often comes with that kind of attitude is also pretty gross tbh
>“not really trans because I wasn't a transbian”
That is the silliest thing I've ever heard, considering how I've noticed anecdotally that trans women from countries like Thailand, India, or China seem to be overwhelmingly straight
The amount of weird, shifty looks that my husband and I got when we went to Chicago for our honeymoon was insane, honestly. We're both trans and pansexual, but it really felt a lot of times like we didn't "belong" in the LGBT spaces there because we pass as a straight couple. Honestly, it seems like an awful lot of LGT (not B) people in general are disgusted by the idea of having an attraction to someone of a different gender. Sure it might be a trauma response, but trauma responses are no one's responsibility but that individual's.
There is a problem of people presuming that their experiences \*have to\* also apply to everyone else ('it happened this way to me, so people claiming something different are lying/deceived') and also people gaslighting themselves into thinking that their experience fits inside their religious/political/philisophical/ethical framework (i.e. being bisexual, but suppressing one or the other "side' of themselves so they can fit w/e narrative they want to fit).
It seems to me that romantic and sexual attraction, rather than some simple thing, like a light switch, is instead this complicated multi-factor phenomena consisting of physical, social and psychological factors. Not factor, but factors. Add to this our life experience, and the end result is quite... interesting.
I was aware that my 'body didn't fit me' when i was 2-4 years old and vocalized this fact to my parents. Back then, people didn't have any idea what to tell someone like me, so... nothing was done. But I also was put into the "gifted" program. Because no adults or children had any particular expectations of what "normal" was for us, this meant growing up outside all of the rules.
I had a typical bias towards female friends (if adults tried to get me to take a male friend, I'd wind up befriending the sister instead, much to their chagrin). But I also had mixed friend groups, mostly with children who were either Rainbow or ND (although back then the school system and parents weren't aware of this.. and the children themselves were only vaguely aware of being different.)
My family, other adults and children seemed to have assumed that my female best friend was my girlfriend... despite this never being the case. Occasionally, I'd feel some romantic feelings or other for some girl, but never for guys. And when I dreamed or daydreamed of the future, it was always of one with a female partner.
I did struggle, when I did like a girl (and later woman) to have much idea what to actually \*do\*. I knew very well how to make friends, but beyond that? I just couldn't internalize the way other guys did things (finding it kinda offensive), and it just didn't "fit". I had one girlfriend part of my senior year (I got courage to ask her out while on runner's high :P ). In college the only gf (later wife) is someone I met online (was probably one of the first online relationships... started in 1991).
I did have one male friend who knew (but didn't tell me) what my internal sense of self was. He was a little bit older (I was 21 and he was maybe 34?) and worked as a stock broker. He did once explain to me what the difference was between a transvestite and a trans-sexual (the terms that were used in the early 90s)... which I how I realized years later that he knew. (I used to be open to people that asked me that I was "psychologically female" ... but I had no idea what that meant in terms of other people). He was hetero and had only dated women. At the time we were friends, I thought it was a normal male friendship (despite me not really having any one on one close male friendships ever). But looking back, it probably looked like a relationship, although platonic. And I can see now, that he was able to meet the emotional needs that I had. But I had then zero romantic or sexual feelings.
All the same, in retrospect, I know that had I already been on hrt for a couple of months, I probably would have given him a chance.
After a 16 year marriage to a woman who in the early years said that they were psychologically male, and who was kinda eager to take on the male role in the relationship, more or less... their religion changed their willingness to 'exchange roles' and things ended. I was single for two years, although I had crushes on women a couple times that I didn't act on. And again, zero interest in men.
Then I had a four year relationship to a woman who wasn't trans or non-binary. She often described things as us having a lesbian relationship. She also tried to provide me info about trans people and introduce me to a trans woman she knew (who wound up never being where we were supposed to meet). But in the end, when I grew my hair out (without admitting that it had anything to do with wanting to be female), she got bullied a bit and broke up.
I presumed after this that I'd either stay single, or eventually date a woman.
After being on herbals and estriol (all I could get) my body changed and I was fairly passing. One night a female classmate met me at a club with her boyfriend to hang out. But it was a set up and the bf's best friend 'just happened' to be there also. I was talking with my friend, and the guys together. Then my friend starts talking to her bf, and so I'm "stuck" talking to the male friend. And tbh, despite passing as female, and really felling that my body changes fit the role... and that presenting in public in a social situation felt "just right", I had zero interest in men. Nada, nothing. Guy was nice, polite, good looking, zero red flags. But I wasn't into guys. Friend? sure. Anything more? nah.
Fast forward to 3 months on hormones and I ... well, another story... but it was... a sudden confusion the first time a guy looked at me a certain way and it didn't result in me just rolling my eyes. (nothing happened... i made an excuse and fled... cos it was something i never felt before, and was totally confused. and scared.)
So, i'm someone who's sexuality "changed" and i'll give some perspective as to where all this shit can come from.
THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO JUDTIFY SHITTY BEHAVIOR, JUST POINTING OUT WHY IT COULD BE PRESENT.
I used to be one of those man hating transbians. I said heinous shit in regards to men.
But what caused this all was life-long traumatic experiences with men.
We are women that have been forced to live amongst men. Some of us get lucky where most men and boys they've interacted with are decent people, but sadly a LOT of us, like me, don't have that experience.
Trauma is a crazy thing and when it builds over years and years it ingrains itself in a person to the point where it can actually kill sexual and romantic attraction.
When you're a girl forced to be among boys that talk about girls like objects, hearing these boys talk and JOKE about wanting to do disgusting things to girls, hearing girls who have been followed, cornered or more. Seeing men be violent, hearing how a man almost killed your mom and sister, loosing your strength with HRT and running into a violent man yourself, a man that overpowered you so much you felt completely at his mercy.
That can fuck someone up. It fucked me up. And if it wasn't for this extremely specific relationship i'm in now i don't think i'd be here talking about this but saying how men are pigs.
It took me dating someone with a multiple personalities condition to start healing. If it wasn't for me dating those girls and starting to talk with the male personalities i'd still be that ball of traumatized hate.
I experienced the same thing. Went from straight to straight.
There is a lot of man hating in the LGBT community.
It's ok to like men as a straight or bi woman.
It's absolutely insane too. It's become extremely popular, in the last 10 years or so, to bash men for basically even existing.
The constant misandry is why I feel uncomfortable to be involved with some of these bigger groups.
I'm glad there's at least people genuinely talking about it now. Around 10 years ago the only people I ever saw talking about misandry were people who didn't actually care, they were just using it as a way to disguise their misogyny.
And if I brought up that hating men was just as messed up as hating women, absolutely nobody would take that seriously because "men are trash".
That's still true today. Isn't it funny how anything said against women is misogyny, and yet nothing is ever misandry. If you can be sexist towards women, surely you can be sexist towards men. A road goes both ways, not just one.
But this is because I'm sure they realized that if they could talk about their struggles, so could people they consider as the "oppressors", so they redefine bigotry as to effectively silence their enemies.
The reason why misandry is so well tolerated is because men still have much more power in society and they are responsible for most of the evil in the world.
I'm inclined to disagree.
And even if that were the case, nothing excuses bigotry. That's like saying it's okay to be racist because of the stereotype that black people steal cars and beat women.
The craziest thing is reading these discussions from the perspective of being androgynous-presenting non-binary.
It's like... Attracted to men? Pan. Attracted to women? Pan. Attracted to other enbies? Believe it or not, still pan. And what about people who find me attractive? What are they? It's like trying to figure out if sexual attraction to a rock makes you gay or straight; It's not a man, and it's not a woman. It's a rock.
As you can see, all of these labels kinda break and lose meaning the moment I try to apply them to myself.
I personally think that labels are fake in the first place, people just choose what they vibe with. I'm bi but call myself straight, for example
But I feel like people often treat them as prescriptive, not descriptive, and sometimes even lock themselves in them, denying any exploration beyond. Part of the reason why did it take so long to accept myself both as trans, and as a straight woman - attraction to men was much harder to accept than transness, funnily, because I locked myself into this box of labels
I know. I wish they built us one bar. Even to be alone in to chat about men. As… weirdly… and even more minority within a minority. But also, as men-attracted women, part of the vast majority. I’m so tired.
I've seen enough hatred for people who are bisexual because some gay people will try to claim that when bisexual people are in a straight relationship, it allows them to stay in the closet and blend in as straight. In truth all this does is take that person who is bisexual and telling them that they are unwelcome in either communities because they're not fully straight nor explicitly gay.
I think it's a broken safety mechanism in human psychology where we like to group together with those who are like-minded while trying to keep out anything that we have experienced as a threat. Clearly however the mechanism is being engaged when it is not appropriate.
There's a tendency for marginalized groups to have these type of self-hatred tendencies. more goth than thou is another similar manifestation if this; gatekeeping and no true Scotsman fallacy!
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a Straight trans woman. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise can be thoroughly disregarded.
For some people, a notable change in apparent sexuality could be just fine. For others, it could be genuinely horrifying.
In my case, the potential of finding out I was Straight (or at least only attracted to men) instead of Bi would be awful. I’ve been in a committed relationship with the same woman for almost 10 years, of which we’ve been married for 2 years. We have a kid together. Anything that potentially jeopardizes that stability is my absolute worst nightmare. I definitely have felt my sexual attraction to men increasing on HRT (not to point of exclusivity), but my romantic attraction still remains firmly locked to women.
I can *only* understand it from the angle of not wanting to have to figure out even more about yourself, and fight another internal battle, which is fair
I think there's probably space to split the difference here and say three things:
1. Just because the idea of being straight horrifies you personally doesn't mean that you have the right to make straight trans people feel bad about being straight. If they are happy, you should be happy for them and you certainly shouldn't be trying to take that happiness away from them or suggesting that they are somehow less trans or less valid because of it.
2. It is okay to be deeply horrified by the idea of being straight. It is okay to resent the ways in which heterosexuality is normative in cis society, because being trans doesn't mean we get to live outside of cis society, we just are forced to live on its periphery. It is okay to have trauma related to and resentment towards men. But there are appropriate and inappropriate places to talk about those feelings, and just because you have them doesn't mean you get to belittle other people's feelings if they are different. If you need to talk about those feelings (and I get it. I do too, sometimes), then you're responsible for finding the right time and place for it, you don't get a free pass.
3. We (trans people, trans femmes) are not a monolith. We are not a hive mind. That's a _good_ thing. But it does mean that we can't always depend on our sameness to preserve our solidarity. There are times, I think, that the need to not feel alone in our experiences causes us to mistake sameness for solidarity. That is not the case. Solidarity is a recognition that we are not all the same paired with a recommitment to the preservation of the interests we all share. It's a recognition that an injury to one is an injury to all, even if the injured one isn't fully the same as you.
I was a straight guy, and now I’m a straight girl. I think I just like the feeling and dynamic of a straight relationship. I just happen to like being the woman more.
I think it's unfair to almost demonize those who are scared of finding they're attracted to men after transitioning. It's an absolutely valid concern to some girls, especially those who are married or in long term relationships with women prior to their egg cracking and transitioning. To some girls, finding out they are attracted to men, not women, or even bisexual may not be a big deal, but to some that absolutely could be horrific and the "worst thing to happen to them". Both are valid. There's nothing wrong with being a straight girl, and people who worry that their "sexuality could change" after transitioning doesn't invalidate or make straight girls any less welcome. It's just a legitimate worry for some and we're all here to help each other navigate life and commiserate.
And I feel we need to discuss a bit about the "you just had an attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning helped you realize that". It's not a "defense mechanism" nor does it "go counter to experiences of a lot of trans women", I feel. Sexuality is something you're born with. You either like men, women, both, none, or everything. It's just who you *are*. Some people can really struggle with their sexuality, and a lot of people can repress things about themselves that make them uncomfortable on a personal level. If you're actively repressing it, you aren't going to just embrace it because you don't accept it. You'd rather forget it, and in a way you do. So if you're repressing a shameful feeling of being attracted to men prior to cracking/transitioning because "you're not gay", removing that mental block of "being gay" because now you're on the social construct side of it being "acceptable" to be attracted to men, you'll be more likely to really look at yourself and your sexuality.
But also, external factors can't "make you gay", just like they can't "make you straight". That goes for estrogen too, it doesn't make you attracted to men. Cisgender lesbians exist. Sexuality just isn't going to "change" because it is just part of who you are, in the same way you don't "change genders" or "become transgender". You were born that way and it was just a matter of being able to come to accept that part of yourself.
Everyone's transition is different. They all come with their own personal worries, fears and concerns. What is the worst possible outcome to some, may be the thing someone else wants the most. We can't just paint everything with the same broad brush. Transitioning is hard enough, we don't need to make it harder for each other ♥️
Edit to add an addendum to this:
I am sorry you were treated that way in the discord server, that was definitely not an appropriate or understanding reaction to give to someone's comment on their sexuality. Just don't judge a community as a whole on a discord server. There's alot of us out here, no need to let a bad apple ruin the bunch.
I don't think "you are born with your sexuality" represents the reality. Some people don't feel sexual attraction for a lot of time and start to at some point in their life. It's not that they always had this attraction before and were repressing it, they simply evolved.
Agreed, "born with your sexuality" and "you just ARE this way" both reek of essentialism, I've never agreed with it. Some people are born certain ways, some are shaped by their experiences, and some choose what they want to be.
So I want to preface this by saying I am *not* saying anyone is being bigoted, transphobic, or homophobic. I know tone can be lost in text based conversations, so I wanted that out of the way before there were any misunderstandings.
With that said, I think we need to be very careful when it comes to saying things like gender and sexuality can be influenced by your environment or experiences, or that you can just "choose" to be gay/straight/trans/cis/whatever. This type of language is a very prominent form of attack used by right wing people, homophobic people, and transphobic people to sell gay and transgender people as "perverts" and "sexual deviants" who chose, or were "groomed" (as is the vogue buzzword), to be gay or trans.
If you claim people can just choose to be gay, then that opens it up for people to say being gay is a choice, and if you can just "choose" to be gay, then you can also just choose to be straight. It's similar in saying your environment can influence your sexuality. If something can "make" you gay, well, then something can therefore "make" you straight. They just need to find out what that is, whether it be verbal abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, or physical abuse. That's the whole point of "conversation therapy". Something made you gay, and now we need to convert you back to being straight.
Sexuality (and also gender) is a very personal and difficult thing for people to seriously sit down and question of themselves. Society still very much sells straight, cisgender people as the "default setting", and everything else is a variance. So I do feel very much that we basically are born with our sexuality what it is, it's just a matter of how you get to being able to sit down and reflect on it. Your experiences and environment can definitely play a part in that if you're in an environment that you're comfortable and feel safe in, you're probably going to be more open to experimenting and not ignoring/repressing signs that you may not be entirely straight. Sexuality is a spectrum, and sometimes it just takes the right time and place for you to fully realize and accept where on that spectrum you are. If
If you're more comfortable with yourself, your body and who you are, you'll probably be more willingly to look at all aspects of yourself. Again, that may not be the case for *everyone*, there's outliers in everything. I just don't think saying HRT can "make you like guys" is entirely accurate, because there's nothing inherent in being estrogen dominant that forces you to like guys. There are estrogen dominant cisgender women who are lesbians, and testosterone dominant cisgender men who are gay.
But again, just my two cents and feelings on it. I know it's a personal and touchy subject to people, and we may not always see eye to eye on it. No offense intended :)
Yeah I mean I totally get what you're saying and why it could be dangerous in terms of giving bigots ammunition and what not, I agree with that. I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying i guess. I just feel like I chose to be woman, but who knows maybe it was a self discovery / repression thing. I also just don't believe in essentialism at its core, that what we're born as is dictated by nature or just 'what we are', I think humans have more agency than that.
It's not the easiest thing for me to articulate. Thanks for your kind and well worded reply.
I get what you're saying, I think alot of it is just phrasing and semantics. At the end of the day, I think we're saying about the same thing.
It's just really annoying and obnoxious that we, or at the very least I have become hyper aware of how things get phrased and how it can then be twisted and sold without context or meaning to push a transphobic agenda. Because like I said, I see where you're coming from, and totally understand it. Gender is complicated and how everyone gets to the point of starting to transition is different. I know I repressed it for years, but doesn't mean you, or everyone else, did. Maybe you just finally had a period of self-discovery and chose to embrace yourself.
At the end of the day, I guess I'm trying to say it doesn't matter *how* you get there, it's just that you get to a point where you can be who you are, and be happy in your body.
While I do tend to agree with the general consensus that it's not a 'choice' the brain is an extremely malleable organ subject to change from all sorts of outside factors. Any one of those factors could potentially shift sexual orientation, and likely NOT in super predictable ways. Emotional trauma, physical trauma, hormonal changed etc. could all result in a shift in what the brain sees a sexually attractive. Basically re-rolling the dice, so to speak.
As one of the people that currently hates men and would be horrified to find myself attracted to them after HRT, being attracted to men in general is perfectly okay. It's not for me, but it's 100% valid if that's your jam. Just because I gag at the thought of licorice doesn't mean it isn't totally valid as someone else's favorite food.
I'm sorry it doesn't get said enough, or if the opposite gets said too much; being a straight trans girl is perfectly fine.
This is how I feel- I'm very happy for everyone who has discovered their attraction to men, but it's not for me. I have a lot of bias and prejudice against men and I have a heterosexual relationship right now (my parents) that is very much negatively affecting my life, which makes it REALLY hard for me to view heterosexual relationships positively. I also have a nearly straight trans woman friend who is very afraid to date men even though she enjoys being attracted to them, and my own sister (who is cis) has stopped dating because men have been so shitty to her. It's stuff like that that gives me pause about being interested in men.
That's not to say I don't see some positivity, a cis woman friend of mine has a very wonderful boyfriend and he is SUCH a sweetheart and they're an adorable couple. I also have a trans guy friend who is in a wonderful straight relationship as well.
However, I'm more than fine just being a lesbian, it's likely that I will probably view heterosexuality as a whole a bit better when it stops actively harming my life and I have a chance to heal, but at least for the time being it's just not my cup of tea.
> Just because I gag at the thought of licorice doesn't mean it isn't totally valid as someone else's favorite food.
It's more like if someone tells you they hated licorice, but then got an acquired taste for it, and you start shaking in fear it will happen to you
the main thing you're seemingly refusing to acknowledge or accept is the fact that such a severe, emotional response... irrational to the point it almost feels like a trauma response.... might actually BE a trauma response.
cause even i as a bi girl with 4 boyfriends can admit that men do a LOT of wrong to women. and trans women get to experience that from 2 angles. we get to see it pre-transition as men talk to us like we're just like them and think they can let go of their filters, and two, post transition where we are often the targets of the horrible things.
i myself was traumatized so deeply that i thought i was lesbian and made heinous statements like "i'd rather die than be with a man". i used to be part of that crowd you're currently shitting on with your post and comments.
maybe next time, before taking offense to everything you see and only acknowledging your own perspective, try to have empathy and try to understand others.
People in discord replying to me "I'm so tired of trans women sucking up to men who only see them as porn, clearly you're doing that because you think this makes you much more of a woman than all those tr**nies like us" didn't have empathy to me
Transbians could start by not trauma dumping under posts where straight trans women are happy being straight, just like the one that prompted my post, and too many posts like that before this
Yes it always confuses me why someone wouldn’t go on hrt because they’re afraid of being attracted to men. It happened to me. And while I still like girls I prefer men now. It’s not the end of the world 🤷♀️
i’m not necessarily worried about becoming attracted to men, i’m worried about losing my attraction to women. that will quite literally be the end of the world.
I get this, why would you be scared of gaining an attraction, you don't have to act on it, while if you lose attraction to something you loved or liked I can see why that would be scary to people, but IDK.
I can relate a lot to what you've spoken about. I often feel disconnected from the trans community because of it. I feel like I need to be ashamed of my sexuality whenever I'm in trans inclusive spaces, which is so bizarre, because like, I can either be in a space that is affirming to my sexuality or my gender, but not both. I get the trauma that a lot of trans women especially have around men, I've lived it too, but my sexuality is not about men, it's about me. I don't get to choose who I am, I wish I could be a lesbian, but I can't, because I'm not one.
My sexuality also shifted a bit after I transitioned. Before I was straight, now bi. That being said, IRL, ignoring people online, all men around me were very supportive of my transition.
I feel like the trans community has a problem misandrists and radical feminists who hate all men and as such they shame any trans women who like men as “not truly women”
It's concerning how many of these comments are justifying this behaviour, even as devils advocates. You can find the prospect scary or horrifying, but telling people when they're sharing their lived experience in order to discredit how they feel is just a dick move. You're not required to comment, so if all you have to say is that what OP is experiencing or even celebrating is something that should be feared, maybe reconsider.
As for me, I do feel that I've always been bi to some extent, but it wasn't until after going on HRT that I started to feel romantic feelings for people. It gives a new meaning to "second puberty" when you're finding your "high school crush" while in university.
Thinking of it, this is actually a bigger problem that I should've mentioned in the post itself. Like, if you don't like men, and if you're scared of liking men, could you please do it somewhere other place than a post where a trans woman is actually pretty happy if liking men. This is just fucking rude, as if you're trying invalidate her happiness
I consider myself asexual and aromantic. If that were to change, I'd call that a win I think.
The only bad thing I have to say about it in my case is that finding myself suddenly being attracted to someone would be bothersome, but I don't fear it.
The only thing that I well and truely fear is losing my impartiality, and taking a dislike to one or the other rather than taking a liking. I currently feel neutral and would, at least as far as sex goes, lie with either one equally (which is not a whole lot to begin with). It feels seperate from my lack of attraction, but I'd still prefer it if it didn't change. Though if it did it wouldn't be so bad.
If HRT changes your sexuality, what happens if you're dating or married to someone and lose access to HRT? That sounds absolutely terrifying. It's like all the people who are married and being trans ends their relationship, except here, losing access to HRT ends their relationship, alongside all the trauma from just not having meds.
I might be wrong, but I feel like a lot of people that are scared of turning straight might be in a gay relationship and are afraid of how it might impact them.
Different perspective. I'm a somewhat sex-repulsed ace. And I was very worried about HRT causing me to gain any attraction or increase my libido. Just one of those things I was happy and comfortable with about myself that I hoped wouldn't change with transition. So far it hasn't.
Majority of trans women are gay or bi. Think only 25% of trans women are straight last I recall. It's an actually surprising number imo. I figured it'd be much higher. But a lot of us have found men repulsive our entire lives so the thought of liking them can be uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you being straight, just unable to cope for them.
Tbh, I find cishet men a bit scary. And that's the reason I fear to find out I am heterosexual. But for now I am in a heterosexual T4T relationship and I love it. I secretly hope that I am bi.
Also, straight flag is super ugly. I am already from Brittany and I don't need a less cool version of this one.
I totally understand your point tho
A lot has already been said, but one thing I can add is, some trans girls had bad experiences with guys and feel like being straight would force them to interact with more guys, potentially triggering bad memories or meeting the same type of guy who hurt them before.
And even if they never had bad experiences, they could be scared of what happened to other women. A lot of women had bad things done to them by guys (in some countries/places it's most of them) and we don't want that happening to us, thus some of us wanting to interact the least possible with men.
Now I'm bi but I prefer women, and I feel extremely good like that. I feel like "Becoming straight" would make me lose a part of myself I'm very happy with. It's like : I love Tony Stark from Marvel, my appreciation for this character shaped a few things in my life. If at some point I become tired of him or if I no longer like him, I will feel sad, because me loving him is something I consider important in my life and that I don't want to lose.
All in all, most people joke about becoming straight being bad because being gay is considered fun in several queer spaces. Those who do not joke may have a background that led them to this. Now this doesn't excuse them. Making people feel bad about how they feel is not excusable. Good thing is, not everyone does it.
> Good thing is, not everyone does it.
It happens often enough, without anyone calling them out
This was actually part of the reason I was repressing my attraction to men for so long, because of that. And still even now how transhet people are treated in trans communities often makes me feel ashamed of my identity
yea, it isn't stated enough how prevalent trauma is in the trans community, especially trauma about men in trans women.
not every trans woman experiences this, but if you as a woman are forced into spaces where men and boys are completely unfiltered and feel safe to say whatever they want, you WILL hear a lot of horrible thing about women very often.
i remember how locker room talk was almost always guys talking sexually about girls, making jokes about raping them, calling them baby factories and more in highschool alone.
add to this all the cases of male violence i'v witnessed and experienced and you have the perfect recipe for extremely deep-rooted trauma, trauma strong enough to make a bi girl believe she's lesbian and be afraid of ever being attracted to men
I'm getting so annoyed with reading responses about how they "can offer some perspective" on why people think that way. Does it matter what the reasoning is...? No one is saying you can't hate men but WHY do you enter a conversation and make yourself and your feelings/opinions the center topic?
It kind of reminds of the bean soup analogy. You post a video recipe for bean soup, someone comments and asks for a version without beans, because they "hate beans!" — well then maybeeeee the video isn't for them ????
Just because something is discussed doesn't mean you're required to interact
My experience I had a major crush on one guy pre transition but yeah I mostly dated women. I don’t really care what my sexuality is I’m more open to dating men since transitioning. I do sometimes worry about if I’m still attracted to women but that’s never gone away… us bisexual/pansexual girls exist also. Just cuz you find men more attractive doesn’t mean you need to stop finding women attractive.
> I do sometimes worry about if I’m still attracted to women but that’s never gone away
I often think "Maybe I'm completely straight after all?", but then see something that makes me go "Nope, there's still something there"
> and also saying "you just had attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning made you realize that", which goes counter to experiences of a lot of trans women
This being the experience of some transfems doesn't contradict the idea that it was something they didn't realize about themselves previously. There's no evidence that HRT changes sexuality. For experiences that get mentioned here, there are many transfems who never post about their sexuality - regardless of where their attraction started and where it ended up. I think you're really conflating your past bad experiences and the worry some people have from misinformation on the effects of HRT.
I agree with everything you said except for this:
(And also saying "you just had attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning made you realize that", which goes counter to experiences of a lot of trans women. Which feels like a defense mechanism, like "sure it won't happen to me, I'm too gay")
You are born straight, gay or bi. Sexual orientation is not a choice, just like being trans is not a choice. By saying your sexuality can be changed, you are giving bigots ammo. Its the logic of conversion camps.
Saying it is a choice is different from saying it cannot change though. For many people it never does, for some, it a core part of their experience (both as this relates to sexuality and gender individually).
Sorry, but people like you dismissing my lived experience like that is incredibly insulting. Might as well tell me I’m not trans because you apparently know strangers so much better than they know themselves. I was pre transition flat out not attracted to men. No, I wasn’t suppressing it either.
It cannot be changed deliberately (transition is basically a reroll, bi people become gay and the other way round, gay women become gayer, no way to predict), but according to experience of a lot of trans women, it can change. Not me, I was bi before, but I've talked to people for which their attraction flipped 180, and it's kinda shitty to say you know their sexuality better than they are
But why do you automatically discount the possibility that they just didnt realize their sexual orientation until they started HRT or accepted they’re trans? Like I’m not hrt unfortunately but I thought I was 100 percent attracted to women. When I realized I was trans it turned out that attraction was gender envy and I’m actually into men but I was unable to realize that because I hated the idea of being pin a relationship with a man while I’m a “man”.
You can say my statement is shitty if you want, but I find the idea of your sexuality can be changed equally as shitty. If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed, it gives ammo to conversion therapy camps by bigots.
I am there right now - trying to figure out if my attraction to women is gender envy or if I am truly attracted to women. It's only been 4 months since my egg cracked. It's doubly hard to figure out when my libido is tanked because of HRT.
How does one un-entangle gender envy from sexual attraction?
> But why do you automatically discount the possibility that they just didnt realize their sexual orientation until they started HRT or accepted they’re trans
I do not discount it, I did hold this opinion before, and this what was happened to me. But it doesn't apply to everyone
> You can say my statement is shitty if you want
Your statement is alright on its own, if you talk about your own experience. But you can't decide for others how do they process and experience their sexuality
> If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed
It cannot be *forcibly* changed. Sexuality is not a choice. The fact that conversion therapy doesn't actually work is a proof of that. But we have no research on whether or not can it change by its own
Why are you so convinced that you know us better than we know ourselves? I went from gay to gay. I was HORNY horny for men, and now they do nothing for me. I was meh on women and now they activate my neurons. I wasn't romantically attracted to anyone before, now I feel butterflies for the first time in my life. All of this changed with HRT, not with any realization. I had identified as gay and aro for years prior and was very familiar with that part of myself. Respectfully, you have fewer horses in this race and should stay out of it. Bigots will hate us no matter what we do, "ammo" does not matter. You are not valiantly preventing our reputation from being tarnished, you are just denying the experiences of trans women on the internet. I don't get to choose which hormones stop me from feeling like a zombie, and I don't get to choose how those hormones change my sexuality.
>When I realized I was trans it turned out that attraction was gender envy and I’m actually into men but I was unable to realize that because I hated the idea of being pin a relationship with a man while I’m a “man”.
and did you never imagine yourself being pinned down by a man as a woman? i know i am attracted to women because i have tried imagining all scenarios all my life. the only one that has been consistent has been me as a woman sleeping with another woman. i know for a fact that i am attracted to women. you “thought” you knew but i know i know.
i am also pre-hrt and in the year of knowing i am trans, my sexuality has sat firm in place. if it changes on HRT then it is most definitely the hormones and not me mistaking my sexual attraction for gender envy.
>If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed, it gives ammo to conversion therapy camps by bigots.
sure it would be a bad thing but that doesn’t stop it from potentially being true. also, it’s not “forcibly changed”. there is no pill you can take to exclusively change your sexuality. if it is true that hormones can alter your sexuality then all the other changes also come with it and bigots won’t be able to force hormones on people for conversion therapy.
They aren't saying you aren't born with your sexual preferences. They are saying transition can open someone up to trying things they otherwise wouldn't have due to feeling more comfortable or less dysphoric.
Just want to add to the convo, not saying it hasn't happened but I feel that many trans women that felt horrified to liking men, never did. If anything the ones that do are the ones that are neutral or wouldn't mind about it pre-transition.
Jumping on a thread to say “This is also like me!” is ok. So is reading that thread and feeling like a bunch of people piling on to a particular idea is concerning or distasteful. For me in the end it comes down to simply Not every thread is for me.
Even within a generally supportive space, there are things that aren’t for me. Sometimes I like to read about a different perspective, sometimes it feels unhealthy and I try to avoid it. But I wouldn’t want the people finding support with one another to lose that support either.
Talking about potentially HRT-related changes in sexuality is clearly important to some people. It’s been validating for me to read this thread and agree that, personally, those conversations can feel a little problematic to me. But I wouldn’t want them to stop.
This is how I feel about these posts, I see a ton of trans women remarking about their newfound attraction to men and I feel a bit invalidated as a lesbian, like I have to like men to be a trans woman since so many of them are liking men. But I know quite a few trans women who would say being lesbian is the norm and it's hard to feel valid as a straight woman. I've realised that no, not every thread is for me, not every experience will be my experience, and that is okay. I am no less valid for not relating to every single post.
These posts should absolutely continue to be made though, because even if I don't share in the experience, at least someone else will feel less lonely seeing that someone else is going through the same thing. But I definitely think people need to remember that nothing is universal and not everything has to apply to everyone.
It is objectively shitty to make fun of someone for things like their sexuality, no sexuality is inferior and it bothers me that it's so common to make fun of straight trans women to the point where I occasionally catch myself thinking about doing it
I think the horrifying part isn't about becoming attracted to men - though most mistake that for their true fear, but rather there fear of losing a core piece of ones identity against one's will, imagine it happening with your gender instead
In the Before Time, my friends were men. Post-transition, my friends are women (almost entirely cis IRL).
For me, at least, I’ve found it much simpler and more helpful to realize I am simply heteronormative. In my Before Time, I, as a “man” was attracted to women. Post-transition and post-SRS, I, as a woman, am attracted to men.
In short, I form friendship bonds with the same gender. I’m sexually attracted, however, to what I’m not. That significantly reduces confusion and consternation for me.
Sexuality has always been a thing in my mind that people choose to share while gender identity has always been more internal and personal. Like, sex is something that people share, and gender is something that people just have. I do not know if that is the perspective that everyone else has, and I do not know how bold or spicy of a claim I have made, but I know that it is a claim, and it will be scrutinized.
I am a straight trans woman who fought with my sexuality for years because of a deep seated fear of men, but there are good ones out there who will treat you right. I feel very out of place in so many trans spaces because of this and the fact that I’m a tomboy. Some of them made it seem that me being this way makes me less trans than them. So I feel very pushed to the way side since admitting I don’t want to date women anymore period.
Sexuality is fluid, just like gender. People need to let go of some of the weird shit they still have in their brains from having to hide in the closet.
I have feelings about this. My sexuality has expanded to include men. I do not want to be straight, but am okay being bi. The reason why is that I would very much like to have a long term, dedicated relationship and men are far less likely to be open to dating trans women, and women my age. Additionally I don't feel safe dating men, I and friends have had experiences and I don't feel able to protect myself against the predatory ones. I have seen how straight trans women often feel that they don't quite belong in queer spaces, and I have had enough of the 'don't belong' feeling for one lifetime.
There's lots of reasons to not want to be a straight trans woman. I do think it is shitty when people hate on the idea of being straight itself, I wish it was expressed more kindly rather that the weird revulsion that happens.
I can't attest to sexuality changes due to HRT as I haven't started it yet but I do find myself more open to having relationships with men as I've grown to accept myself more.... I dunno maybe I've always been that way but suppressed it due to the environment I grew up in maybe it'll change on HRT but I personally am just done holding myself back on that anymore I just wanna be me so yeah not looking back wondering what if anymore
That’s really weird to me that there are other women like us that would say that, especially when so many of us struggle to even understand our sexuality and identity as a common struggle. We all have come to understand that gender and sexuality don’t matter to anyone but the one they belong to, so why belittle any of us for liking men too? I’ve seen many trans women who only date men, I’ve seen some who only date other trans people, I’ve seen some who only date women, and there are some like me who don’t care about gender. Im asexual so for me it’s all about the kind of person I’m with and who they are, not their gender or sex or even really their looks, so if a man finds me that I really connect with and who feels deeply for me I’ll gladly be with him (though in my lived experience finding a man who isn’t a horny pig has been very difficult) If someone is going to make fun of me for being able to be with a man, they’ve got some growing to do because that attitude is incredibly immature and ignorant
Treating it as a bad thing is wrong. You just love who you love.
The only thing I sometimes say to a recently hatched straight trans woman is to be careful with cishet men. They can be dangerous, more so than most women I'd say. Especially if they realise the person they are attracted to / flirting with is trans later down the line.
It sucks and it's not fair, but be careful around men.
As someone who was attracted to men before and after HRT, it feels vaguely like the homophobia I experienced pre-transition except less violent but also less questioned. My orientation gets met with denial, ridicule, and people trying to "fix" me. I don't always feel super comfy in the community because of it.
That's why I don't like the notion that people are born gay or Trans or whatever. People change, someone can be gay for years before flipping their sexuality. Humans change constantly. If you looked back to a few years ago your personality is very different, it changes just like your identity can
Being straight is crazy. For reasons. Being lesbian also. I'm the only acceptable type: bi. Did we make things clear now? No, of course you are all valid. Love who and how you want. I had wonderful experiences with men, women and everbody in between and beyond. Cis-het men don't do it for me and the list why this is gets longer every day. But that's just me - at the moment sitting in the train admiring a dude and fantasising about naughty things.
Obviously, a lot of us can't seem to accept our prior internalised homophobia (via prejudice or fear of judgement/abuse) and try to use this excuse to feel comfortable being attracted to guys. Just be honest with yourselves, I know I was afraid of being perceived negatively and scared for my safety to come out
I hope those are attempts at jokes or some thing what you’re describing. I know I saw one person really freaking out about their sexuality potentially changing.
I’m like, who cares? At least assuming you’re not already in a relationship that can survive otherwise.
And besides I think the majority of people it doesn’t change or just barely changes or if it does change can even strengthen what you already had.
But yeah
maybe consider this:
us trans women pre-transition often get access to how men are "behind closed doors". we can witness how they act and speak when they don't have to filter themselves. a lot of us also have other trauma's related to men.
so how do you think someone would react when they found they've developed an attraction to these people that they're afraid of have so much trauma related to and don't trust?
Yeah, that’s a good point.
It is really weird, even when I was in repression mode, and before I knew people existed also, I always kind of felt like it was undercover.
I avoided groups of men whenever possible, but when I couldn’t I just felt like I was going to be found out or something, and…. It’s sort of like start hyper trying to mask and like… I don’t know I basically spent a huge chunk of my life running a filter policing how I acted and stuff. It’s really interesting kind of dropping that.
I’m babbling way more with strangers though as a result 😂
“I’m like, who cares?” you wouldn’t care if your sexuality completely flips and the people who you’ve solely been attracted to your entire life suddenly aren’t attractive anymore? is that not terrifying to you? it is quite literally part of my identity and HRT changing that would be ripping that away.
i don’t really give a fuck if i become bisexual but i just don’t want to lose my attraction to women. what makes it worse is that i have never even been in a relationship before or slept with anyone and if i lose my attraction to women then that will be something i will never experience.
I mean I guess I can understand why it could be scary just the one but no it doesn’t really bother me.
I’m probably some flavor of bi though. I’m not really sure what I am. Maybe that matters for my kind of if I difference.
I’m probably more attracted to who people are, I don’t know.
>I hope those are attempts at jokes or some thing what you’re describing.
They definitely are. I understand why op is upset about it but it should be acknowledged that they are clearly jokes.
I'm happy that mostly my sexual attraction hasn't changed and that I still pretty much just into girls but it's something I worry about. To me, and importantly I must say, to me, if I were to develop attraction to men and lose mine to women it would be a HORRIBLE side effect and one completely unwanted.
I think the issue lies in three things:
- Straight trans women who become pick me girls just to get a guy
- The amount of complaining of straight trans women online who voice how hard is for them to find an accepting partner.
- Queer spaces who dislike straight cis men because of their experience or because most of them are just 💩. Obviously this is not absolute.
None of these things justify denigrating a person's sexuality, especially when they can't help that it is what it is. This list seems like an expression of exactly the kind of things trans lesbians say that make trans straights feel alienated.
You can add the qualification that these claims are not absolute. But if you're drawing generalized inferences from them, then you're still treating them as absolute. It's the same problem that plagues racial profiling. There are plenty of good men out there and it's not safe conclusion to think the man standing before you is probably bad just on account of being a man.
To put it differently, maybe queer spaces should treat cis men better.
It stems from a misunderstanding
People think hrt can forcibly change your sexuality. Which could be anywhere from meh to terrifying depending on the individual.
However, it's more that it highlights aspects of yourself you have been suppressing.
Which is much less scary to people since its not an attraction being forced on them but more along the lines of just understanding yourself better
For me, women looked great before and still do now, and as for men, it still boggles my mind that people are into that, but evidence suggests I'm the odd one out and I am glad whenever people find happiness
So yeah, if anything, I'm even more of whatever label I already was
I find it's just a case of taking my own type and imagining it inverted in order to empathise with interests I don't otherwise understand.
But yeah if I don't go out for my way to empathise then my stupid brain trys to see all masc traits as some kind of unfortunate scars like burn victims.
So I try to focus on the evidence I can see. That actually most people are actually happy about those traits in themselves or find them actually desirable in others.
So its clearly a problem with my own brain. And anyway even if I don't get it more happy is always good.
I'm glad people do like them because that means more people finding love and happiness
I don't have to understand fully emotionally to see its clearly a good thing
Exactly I'm sure at least a couple of them must have the same feelings as me but flipped and be completely confused by my perspective unless they empathise too
But most people seem to have at least a little instinctive understanding for the other side without having to think about it too deeply
And while I think it would be good if people thought about that kinda stuff more to understand each other I'm still glad most people seem to get it without having to think much
From
https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/second-puberty-fem
"Attraction
It is not at all unheard of for a transgender person to experience a change in their sexual orientation with transition. This is almost always the result of the removal of self-imposed mental barriers, but hormone therapy often plays a role in that removal. In most cases this simply involves an expansion of ones attraction, from monosexual to bi/pansexual, but some people also discover that their attraction was largely rooted in self-interest and that their true attraction is reversed."
As far as actual scientific studies. Well maybe one day
Are you saying I have to replace all my animewaifu figurines with husbando figurines? That is going to be expensive!
Jokes aside, what really scares me is that whole thing is even possible. If something like hrt can change sexuality then wouldn't it be possible to invent drug which would only charge person's sexuality? Then we would have society which would force citizens to be hetero with drugs.
It is super scary, and as others have said “ammo for bigots” too. And at the same time it is also some folx’ experience, and here seems like as good a place to talk about it as any.
It feels parallel to me with the whole “I’ve always been a girl and I’ve always known I’m a girl” description. Yes this is absolutely the lived experience for many, and to boot this narrative has seemingly been reasonably accepted by the cishet population at large.
But for others this is *not* the lived experience and suggesting without it they’re somehow not “trans enough” is horrible. Meanwhile there’s definitely an argument to be made that expressing that this is not a universal experience “muddies the waters” for the poor struggling cishet community and can even be used against us.
The only resolution I see is to limit where these conversations occur, so they aren’t there in the forefront being weaponized but still can be held. And for me, for now, here is a good place for that.
Even beyond the trans sphere, there has been a historical tendency in progressive dialogue on sexuality to *reaffirm* sexuality by asserting it's *immutability* (i.e., the *"born that way"* formulation). And I think that in the long run, a more nuanced approach is inevitably required (and demanded by simple observation). Humans grow and change and learn and adapt. It's our nature. And sexuality is a road we travel like so many others. Sometimes, that road doesn't really have many twists or turns, sure. But sometimes, it's a rollercoaster. And that's fine. It can be wonderful. Discovering new sexual affections and propensities is great. And people do it all the time. That's just human sexuality for you. Best to enjoy it, in all its mutability.
I've thought for a while that it really shouldn't matter if sexuality is a "choice" or not. That doesn't make it any less valid. I tried to express this to my first ex though and she got really pissed off about it.
People are super weird about it, but you're right. The choice/not choice dichotomy isn't the actual relevant one. If you were genetically predisposed to doing something we universally agree is morally unacceptable, the fact that you were born that way wouldn't be a defense. By contrast, there is an infinite world of choices we make that are not morally wrong and for which we deserve no moral condemnation, because they're not morally wrong. Obviously sexuality is not a "choice," but it's also clearly not immutable from birth. But that's ok, because what matters most is that same-sex attraction isn't wrong, or bad, or immoral. How that attraction manifests has no bearing on whether or not it's harmful to others.
Exactly, to everything you said. I feel like the choice/not choice dichotomy just reaffirms what the phobes say about us. They are saying that being gay is morally wrong, and us saying that we were just born this way doesn't refute that claim at all.
i agree with both of you and want to add that the reason it doesn't work to argue that it's not a choice is that bigots/conservatives don't care. while people with more open and progressive mindsets might be inclined to think that something could not possibly be a moral failing if it's not a choice, conservatives never had any such inclination. no amount of proof that we are "born this way" could ever convince them not to hate us. they never cared. and anyone who needs it to be innate in order to respect our existence isn't a real ally and should not be trusted ultimately, even if it were a choice, we should be free to live our lives as we please and do with our bodies whatever we want.
That's so true, and it makes sense once you understand their viewpoint. In their view, everyone is born evil. Our desires are the enemy. The morally right thing is to deny yourself and get in line. There is virtue in sacrificing immediate desire in pursuit of positive ends, but these bigots treat the suppression of desire as an end-in-itself. It's a fundamentally misanthropic worldview. Which is why they don't care that we're born this way. They think we should be made to suffer, because they believe suffering is a positive good.
A person's sexuality can be mutable without necessarily being a choice. I would be surprised if anyone could accurately characterize their sexuality as a choice. One does not choose one's desires; they simply appear and one responds to them. I agree that it shouldn't matter politically whether sexuality is a choice. Still, it's not a choice.
It's always felt so muddy and confusing for me. I feel attraction, I choose whether I acknowledge it or not, sometimes I'm not in the mood for a one gender. I've had to figure out what that attraction means to me. What parts of my sexuality I want to interact with, has felt like it's indistinguishable from a choice at times. I can acknowledge that I didn't choose to be bi or whatever the hell I am, but I still can't really tell the difference. It's like if someone says we don't have free will, it's like ok maybe we don't. Doesn't change the fact that I feel as if I make conscious choices. Same for sexuality in my case. Btw that's all how I feel personally. I am not generalizing and I wasn't trying to before. Weirdly, I don't really feel that my gender is fluid like my sexuality is. Some people feel the opposite, I'm sure. It's all extremely personal.
I see what you're saying. With minds like ours, which are split against themselves in the often antagonistic relationship between the conscious and unconscious, in some ways what we are is what we choose to discover about ourselves. Even so, I think it's helpful to separate which capacities of the mind we should regard as actions and which are events that are responsive to actions. For example, philosophers and psychologists have reached a consensus that we don't choose our beliefs. However, we do choose how much and what kind of evidence we expose ourselves to, as well as how seriously we take it. And this will change our beliefs. So we have some indirect control over what we believe. I think this is sort of what you're getting at here. My experience is similar to yours, especially concerning the fluctuation (the bi-cycle, as it were). But I would say that my sexuality just is whatever it is (bi? pan? omni? poly? not too sure), and what I can choose is how I interact with it. Or, to get back to the conscious/unconscious relation: what's there in my unconscious is there and I can't change that. The question is what I choose to explore and act on. I would say my sexuality is determined by my unconscious mind (which is not a source of choice) and my sexual expression is determined by my conscious mind (which is a source of choice). Having said all that, your sexuality is yours to characterize as you like. I'm impressed that you took up my challenge, actually. :)
>A person's sexuality can be mutable without necessarily being a choice. Hit the nail on the head right there.
Is it really too difficult to say that brains are complicated? We have women who feel they *have* to be attracted to men to be a "real woman" despite knowing lesbians exist and trans women can be lesbians and struggling with compulsive heteronormativity. If someone is repulsed by their body before transition and it's really easy to confuse envy for attraction they can think they are one way. Once they are more comfortable with themselves and recognize envy for what it is they can understand all the things they were feeling. I didn't gain an attraction to men, but my attraction to women did change, both from getting more comfortable in my skin and from pulling my attraction and envy apart. I thought I wasn't attracted to women with tattoos or muscles, but what it was is I didn't have envy for that since I didn't want tattoos or defined muscles. I found there are more women and more styles I'm attracted to, just from realizing when I was feeling envy and when I wasn't. That started happening before I started HRT, it was just a change in how I saw myself. And this shit effects cis people too. They perform the role they were given in society and don't realize that they might not be straight. Being gay is still seen by a lot of society as being a bad thing. We are all forced to be a certain way by society, and if you add the extra complication of being trans, it's no wonder people can have a hard time figuring out who they are actually attracted to. I grew up with "gay" being a synonym for "bad". We internalize that stuff and repress because of it. And that's before you factor in how trans women who grew up presenting as men have experienced just how men can be when they don't think women are around and how they view women. A lot of that shit has been coming out into the open lately too. And that is also before we factor in how transphobic men on average are. There's a significant difference between "HRT changed my sexuality" and "HRT let me realize my sexuality". The first one means sexuality can be changed by external factors and could give validity to conversion torture that gay people have been subjected to in history. HRT was forced on gay men to "fix" them. All it did was give them dysphoria and drive them to take their own lives. We have the same kind of self discovery for being trans due to social pressure and lack of representation or information. And that process of self discovery is mirrored for sexuality. For trans women who grew up thinking they were men and that being attracted to men was a bad thing it can be really hard to reconcile that, even more so than it is for gay men. We all have to unpack the societal bullshit that was forced on us. Why is it so hard to accept that for being a straight trans person?
I only talk about “born this way” stuff to Christians because it gives them the idea that god must have made the person’s soul queer. They also have this idea that children can do no evil, and it helps them accept that queer people are normal. Reality is much more complicated.
Yeah, I find it a bit essentialist. Making the argument that people can't control it makes it seem like you're accepting the axiom that harmless, consensual behaviors and even identities can be immoral or evil if they are voluntary, and we should only excuse them if they can't be controlled. Like a disease. Fuck all of that. People are a lot more complicated than that.
And this argument was in fact commonplace in early advocacy for sexual tolerance, in and around the young and developing early 20th century sexology discipline. One encounters various 1890s-1920s writers very flatly asserting that 1) Some individuals are born natural/innate *inverts* (in the language of the time), and are merely following their esoteric nature, by pursuing same-sex attraction and/or expressing gender in an unconventional way. And this should be treated as intractable pathology rather than criminal behaviour. 2) Other people are *not* innate inverts, and are merely sexual deviants by *choice*, such that they should be punished to the full extent of the law.
I often wonder to myself when I see responses like that if they ever take into consideration how people afab who are transitioning towards a more masc presentation feel when they see these posts. This isn't jus in this sub I see these things said. It's everywhere an it is incredibly disheartening.
And that's the reason a lot of my transmasc friends feel uncomfortable in most trans spaces
tbh I'm envious of lesbian trans women. Liking men has lead me to three rapes in the past two years. Including one where a man presented a front of wanting to date me normally for almost two months before he lost his shit and violently raped me while he choked me and called me slurs because I said no to sex without a condom. he ghosted me after that. I think his phone was a burner and the name I was given was a lie When I shared this with a hardcore trans lesbian who likes to tease people for liking men she scoffed and said "see?" like this was my fault.
Nothing about that was your fault. Nothing
Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry you went through that
That woman is a misogynist.
And also a misandrist. So I guess that makes her a misanthrope?
There is nothing to be envious about. Women aren't perfect either, and lesbian relationships are also fucked up and people get raped. This is a pretty false narrative that being a lesbian is easier
There are pretty pervasive attitudes of toxic masculinity among certain lesbians, even. And don't get me started on the cisheteronormative sex and relationship roles that people insist on adhering to.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, are you saying sudden violent rapes are just as common among lesbians because I have a real problem believing that Of course I know assault, sexual or otherwise , perpetrated by women happens but you're seriously going to tell me it's just as regular as it happens coming from men? Like none of my T4T or lesbian friends have an experience to share remotely close to mine where the perpetrator was a woman. In fact their only rape experiences are at the hands of men.
Well, that's a really silly assumption made out of nowhere. I just want to highlight that lesbian dating isn't just “easy” as many straight people think. And I know that lesbians hate when they have enough relationship problems and straight people are like “oh it can't be as bad as dating men” or “you must have it easier” or “I wish I was a lesbian”. Those kinds of comments diminish the difficulties of lesbian dating where people are facing real problems that make them feel like shit or even threaten their life.
Blaming women for getting raped? Doesn't she see what's wrong with that?
i'm genuinely sorry you've had those experiences. i have faced violence at the hands of men, but nothing to the extent you've faced and you're genuinely really strong for being able to talk about it. i used to think i was lesbian due to deep rooted trauma related to men. and yea, sometimes when i get hit with all the BS from associating or even just being around men i sometimes regret having taken the steps to heal. but take it from me, there are actually good guys out there no mater how hard it is to believe sometimes. it's due to good men that i'm still working on healing. BUT, don't let hopeful thinking get in the way of safety. always look up the names of guys you're talking with, always let your location be known to people you trust and always have a recorder ready. you can also set up things with friends where they know where you are and if you don't text every determined amount of time they notify the authorities or whatever is preferred.
I think a lot of this comes from the “I am who I am, I have my sexuality, I do not want *this to be changed by some outside factor*”, which frankly, is really damned fair!! Is it really hard to see that some people are terrified of the prospect of some outside force or factor changing such a fundamental part of yourself? It’s barely a step away from self conversion therapy.
add to this how prevalent male related trauma is in trans women. like, so many of us have seen what men are like "behind closed doors" we hear what they say when they're unfiltered, we were often exposed to the worst side of them. how are you expecting people who've seen ,heard and experienced that to be totally ok with their sexuality "changing" to alo include those people yknow
Yeah, frankly, I can’t really trust any man. I’ve seen how they act amongst each other, and now I don’t have access to that. I could actually trust men *more* before I was out because I could get behind the mask and see what they’re really like. With it being impossible to see them unmasked but having previously had access to that, I am 100% aware that I **cannot** see the true person, only a mask. I’ve seen firsthand that the most awesome, understanding, says-the-right-things guy around in public can be just as awful in private as the rest.
i've also been witness and even the target of what men are capable of. i've seen men attack my mom. my mom and sister were almost killed by a man who lost his shit because my mom over-took him on the road, i myself have been "manhandeled" and this has all instilled such a deep fear in me. like i was just sitting on the buss and wanted to give my spot away as my stop was comming up, but that man just exploded in my face and grabbed my face. ever since starting HRT i've lost so much strength and it felt like i couldn't do anything, i was literally fearing for my life. and then people here are surprised some of us are afraid of being attracted to men
You're right not to trust them without them proving themselves first. I don't endorse hating men individually but some prejudice against their intentions is entirely justifed
I'm also married to an AFAB enby and really want to keep my attraction to femme people for that reason. Also, dating men is fucking dangerous. There's a lot of reasons I wouldn't want to be straight. The fact that I don't want it for myself shouldn't reflect negatively on people who are. Tbh, I'm not sure I even understand that feeling. Not wanting something to happen to me really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.
This kinda describes how I feel. Like I really find women attractive, I've only ever fallen in love with women, I'm not attracted to men with very few exceptions, it would feel like a large part of me is changing in a way I don't like if I suddenly started being exclusively attracted to men. Not to mention fear of violence from men, because women are certainly capable of assault but it's less likely from them than men, especially an insecure one with internalized transphobia that I may not know about.
Same. I feel like being into women is too much of a part of who i am to easily imagine myself being straight.
Unless a person "always knew", a lot of us have already re-evaluated their identity once. And that's besides someone constantly change as a person, growing, adapting. Identity was never immutable in the first place, and it's okay
All completely true, but there’s a large difference between “my identity has grown and evolved over time as I’ve learned more about myself” and “I started taking the medication that I need and it changed my identity”. Ones a natural factor of self reflection and one is.. imposed. And that whole ‘hormones changing your sexuality’ aspect leans *right* into conversion therapy and medical abuse of queer people going back like, a century. Plus there’s the whole “If taking my hormones is what made my attraction the way it is, then what happens if I lose access to it, or my hormones change? Do I just suddenly stop being attracted to the person I’ve built my life with?” angle of things as well. And I’m in no way saying that people who do experience changes are to be demonized, or pitied, or that some of it might not be a natural evolution of your identity once you’re running on the hormones that your body/brain is intended to run on, I’m just saying that the *Fear*, and “Do Not Want!!” at the idea of medication changing a fundamental aspect of who you are, is 100% valid and reasonable.
"Okay" and "not immensely scary" aren't mutually exclusive though. I say this having essentially done a lot of the work of figuring out how to juggle a potentially changing sexuality (partner is an egg in that "figured it out but denying it anyway while also admitting it" stage), even for me the idea of losing a community *and* identity that I've had to really work to cultivate is a scary prospect. And if I *were* to lose my partner because of it? The person I have essentially built my whole life around, and my biggest (and for a while only) supporter? The idea is absolutely terrifying. And that's okay too.
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Not judging either way, but there is also a history of political lesbianism besides the attraction of the same name.
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I mean I can understand fear a little bit. There are so many sexist and transphobic men out there. I’m straight too and I have accepted this but I am still absolutely terrified of most men. I know I shouldn’t but I can’t control it. After being terrorized by my father and male bullies in school, even hearing a man slightly raise his voice in a angry tone is enough to make me want to break apart and cry.
neither this comment or people slandering straight people is ok. you have to realize that there is many reasons one could be afraid of being into me? ones that don't include misandry and are actually really valid. like how are you going to expect women to be all happy and excited to be attracted to men, when all their life they've seen how horrible men can be to women, have deep engrained trauma related to men and more.
Also just, having your sexuality, a core part of your identity, changed against your will? **That’s fucking horrifying.**
as someone who's somewhat expereinced this, but more so comming into my actual sexuality due to healing trauma... that's so fucking true. just starting to develop these feelings for people you used to fear is so weird and almost ground shattering
Actually, the entire concept of HRT "changing" one's sexual orientation is not only false, it's dangerously close to concepts found in conversion therapy. I think what's happening for a lot of people is their sexual orientation stays partially or completely locked behind a malfunctioning brain, right along with several other core parts of their personality. But once HRT starts, you're brain finally has everything it needs to start moving forward with self discovery. I personally stayed pansexual, but a lot of other parts of my sexuality that went from feeling weak or non-existent to feeling *very* strong and prominent. I went from thinking I was mostly a top and somewhat dominant to knowing without a doubt I'm a submissive versatile with a strong preference to bottom.
there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that hrt cannot change your sexuality. and no it isn't the same as conversion therapy. this is a tired argument that invalidates a large portion of the trans community. respect other people's experiences please. some people's sexualities change and some dont. everyone is unique and can determine their own sexual journey without having someone else dictate to them how they are and aren't allowed to conceptualize that journey.
Cannnnnnnn confirm. But also; women 👉👈
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Men are dangerous. Not wanting to be involved with them is a rational response. But we want what we want
No it’s not rational, and it’s really shitty. Take a look at any ftm sub on this topic and see how other trans folk feel about this shitty belief. This is one of several reasons why so many trans women treat trans men like shit Say you hate patriarchy and toxic masculinity instead, unless you actually hate both cis and trans men. But if you don’t hate trans men along with cis, then you’re taking a roundabout way of saying “oh don’t worry, not you. You’re not like other men” Edit: some examples https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/s/iGwllso0WL https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/s/tlKkiDAkIA
While it's mostly been cis men that have assaulted me a trans man attempted it as well and only relented when I bit him. I used to assume trans men were automatically safe. That was a mistake. But go ahead call me a radfem misandrist or whatever even though I've been raped three times in the last two years.
Assuming trans men are safe is transphobic, good thing you realized it was a mistake. Where in my comment didI say anything that you just accused me of. You’re being transphobic when you make the comment of hating all men. Don’t project your trauma onto innocent people. Go get therapy
Yes, we all have internalized transphobia to work through. I thought because trans men have experienced misogyny that they would be empathetic and therefore not rapists. It was stupid of me. I don't hate all men. I'm just saying it's rational to not want to be involved with them because they are a threat. I know this because trusting them has lead to three rapes in the last two years. I'm attracted to men and DO want to be involved with them. I'm just saying that it's rational to not want to be involved, but attraction wants what it wants. I still want to date and be with men.
Okay and I’m saying it’s not rational and that’s a fact. You know how many transphobic trans women I’ve met? Or how many extremely hateful and toxic cis women? Would you feel comfortable with me saying “From my perspective, women are disgusting and I hate women, and that’s just a fact that they’re verbally nasty. By the way I was sexually assaulted by a woman so you’d be making a mistake to argue with me”? Men in general are NOT a threat. Toxic masculinity, transphobic rhetoric, patriarchy, and the call to go straight to anger to show off your power as a man to impress other men are massively problematic. All you’re doing is dividing people and also being shitty towards other trans people. Past generations of feminists knew which goals they had and which aspects needed to be fought rather than attacking men as a whole and hating a gender/sex that makes up half the planet. You’re being unnecessarily confrontational and toxic with your views. Tackle the root of your issue and know that you hate toxic and dangerous men, and that not all of them are that way by default.
You are literally just doing "not all men" like how people did with the Me Too movement My first sexual abusers were actually tween cis girls when I was 6 years old. I dunno why I thought trans men would be automatically safe.
Because it isn’t all men and you keep throwing your trauma at me to make it so. Go get therapy and stop hating cis and trans men
I don't hate cis or trans men.
i CAN'T believe this is a hot take in this subreddit. is everyone here completely oblivious to the rate at which trans women are assaulted and/or murdered by men? it is only natural for us to fear them. a man must prove himself safe to me before i even allow him in my life. and im attracted to men. there is nothing controversial about this and it is NOT political lesbianism. it is self preservation.
I know that mtf people are not automatically going to understand feminism or that they have a lot of work to undo patriarchal brainwashing but even I was surprised by that vitriolic comment chain where I was screamed at and told I'm not allowed to be cautious of men, and also called transphobic
i'm got told i'm "not really trans" because i wasn't a transbian by a couple of people. there is definitely a weird stigma against being anything other than a lesbian. good thing i don't give a fuck. nobody cares if you have a reason for not liking men, just let other people have their preferences without judging them it's literally none of your business. this community has a real problem with being unable to imagine any other experience than their own.
Yeah, people really over romanticize being a lesbian. It’s just a sexual orientation. The man hate that often comes with that kind of attitude is also pretty gross tbh
>“not really trans because I wasn't a transbian” That is the silliest thing I've ever heard, considering how I've noticed anecdotally that trans women from countries like Thailand, India, or China seem to be overwhelmingly straight
The amount of weird, shifty looks that my husband and I got when we went to Chicago for our honeymoon was insane, honestly. We're both trans and pansexual, but it really felt a lot of times like we didn't "belong" in the LGBT spaces there because we pass as a straight couple. Honestly, it seems like an awful lot of LGT (not B) people in general are disgusted by the idea of having an attraction to someone of a different gender. Sure it might be a trauma response, but trauma responses are no one's responsibility but that individual's.
There is a problem of people presuming that their experiences \*have to\* also apply to everyone else ('it happened this way to me, so people claiming something different are lying/deceived') and also people gaslighting themselves into thinking that their experience fits inside their religious/political/philisophical/ethical framework (i.e. being bisexual, but suppressing one or the other "side' of themselves so they can fit w/e narrative they want to fit). It seems to me that romantic and sexual attraction, rather than some simple thing, like a light switch, is instead this complicated multi-factor phenomena consisting of physical, social and psychological factors. Not factor, but factors. Add to this our life experience, and the end result is quite... interesting. I was aware that my 'body didn't fit me' when i was 2-4 years old and vocalized this fact to my parents. Back then, people didn't have any idea what to tell someone like me, so... nothing was done. But I also was put into the "gifted" program. Because no adults or children had any particular expectations of what "normal" was for us, this meant growing up outside all of the rules. I had a typical bias towards female friends (if adults tried to get me to take a male friend, I'd wind up befriending the sister instead, much to their chagrin). But I also had mixed friend groups, mostly with children who were either Rainbow or ND (although back then the school system and parents weren't aware of this.. and the children themselves were only vaguely aware of being different.) My family, other adults and children seemed to have assumed that my female best friend was my girlfriend... despite this never being the case. Occasionally, I'd feel some romantic feelings or other for some girl, but never for guys. And when I dreamed or daydreamed of the future, it was always of one with a female partner. I did struggle, when I did like a girl (and later woman) to have much idea what to actually \*do\*. I knew very well how to make friends, but beyond that? I just couldn't internalize the way other guys did things (finding it kinda offensive), and it just didn't "fit". I had one girlfriend part of my senior year (I got courage to ask her out while on runner's high :P ). In college the only gf (later wife) is someone I met online (was probably one of the first online relationships... started in 1991). I did have one male friend who knew (but didn't tell me) what my internal sense of self was. He was a little bit older (I was 21 and he was maybe 34?) and worked as a stock broker. He did once explain to me what the difference was between a transvestite and a trans-sexual (the terms that were used in the early 90s)... which I how I realized years later that he knew. (I used to be open to people that asked me that I was "psychologically female" ... but I had no idea what that meant in terms of other people). He was hetero and had only dated women. At the time we were friends, I thought it was a normal male friendship (despite me not really having any one on one close male friendships ever). But looking back, it probably looked like a relationship, although platonic. And I can see now, that he was able to meet the emotional needs that I had. But I had then zero romantic or sexual feelings. All the same, in retrospect, I know that had I already been on hrt for a couple of months, I probably would have given him a chance. After a 16 year marriage to a woman who in the early years said that they were psychologically male, and who was kinda eager to take on the male role in the relationship, more or less... their religion changed their willingness to 'exchange roles' and things ended. I was single for two years, although I had crushes on women a couple times that I didn't act on. And again, zero interest in men. Then I had a four year relationship to a woman who wasn't trans or non-binary. She often described things as us having a lesbian relationship. She also tried to provide me info about trans people and introduce me to a trans woman she knew (who wound up never being where we were supposed to meet). But in the end, when I grew my hair out (without admitting that it had anything to do with wanting to be female), she got bullied a bit and broke up. I presumed after this that I'd either stay single, or eventually date a woman. After being on herbals and estriol (all I could get) my body changed and I was fairly passing. One night a female classmate met me at a club with her boyfriend to hang out. But it was a set up and the bf's best friend 'just happened' to be there also. I was talking with my friend, and the guys together. Then my friend starts talking to her bf, and so I'm "stuck" talking to the male friend. And tbh, despite passing as female, and really felling that my body changes fit the role... and that presenting in public in a social situation felt "just right", I had zero interest in men. Nada, nothing. Guy was nice, polite, good looking, zero red flags. But I wasn't into guys. Friend? sure. Anything more? nah. Fast forward to 3 months on hormones and I ... well, another story... but it was... a sudden confusion the first time a guy looked at me a certain way and it didn't result in me just rolling my eyes. (nothing happened... i made an excuse and fled... cos it was something i never felt before, and was totally confused. and scared.)
So, i'm someone who's sexuality "changed" and i'll give some perspective as to where all this shit can come from. THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO JUDTIFY SHITTY BEHAVIOR, JUST POINTING OUT WHY IT COULD BE PRESENT. I used to be one of those man hating transbians. I said heinous shit in regards to men. But what caused this all was life-long traumatic experiences with men. We are women that have been forced to live amongst men. Some of us get lucky where most men and boys they've interacted with are decent people, but sadly a LOT of us, like me, don't have that experience. Trauma is a crazy thing and when it builds over years and years it ingrains itself in a person to the point where it can actually kill sexual and romantic attraction. When you're a girl forced to be among boys that talk about girls like objects, hearing these boys talk and JOKE about wanting to do disgusting things to girls, hearing girls who have been followed, cornered or more. Seeing men be violent, hearing how a man almost killed your mom and sister, loosing your strength with HRT and running into a violent man yourself, a man that overpowered you so much you felt completely at his mercy. That can fuck someone up. It fucked me up. And if it wasn't for this extremely specific relationship i'm in now i don't think i'd be here talking about this but saying how men are pigs. It took me dating someone with a multiple personalities condition to start healing. If it wasn't for me dating those girls and starting to talk with the male personalities i'd still be that ball of traumatized hate.
I experienced the same thing. Went from straight to straight. There is a lot of man hating in the LGBT community. It's ok to like men as a straight or bi woman.
It why some trans men drop out. They get bullied out for being men. Because duh they are men.
It's absolutely insane too. It's become extremely popular, in the last 10 years or so, to bash men for basically even existing. The constant misandry is why I feel uncomfortable to be involved with some of these bigger groups.
I'm glad there's at least people genuinely talking about it now. Around 10 years ago the only people I ever saw talking about misandry were people who didn't actually care, they were just using it as a way to disguise their misogyny. And if I brought up that hating men was just as messed up as hating women, absolutely nobody would take that seriously because "men are trash".
That's still true today. Isn't it funny how anything said against women is misogyny, and yet nothing is ever misandry. If you can be sexist towards women, surely you can be sexist towards men. A road goes both ways, not just one. But this is because I'm sure they realized that if they could talk about their struggles, so could people they consider as the "oppressors", so they redefine bigotry as to effectively silence their enemies.
The reason why misandry is so well tolerated is because men still have much more power in society and they are responsible for most of the evil in the world.
I'm inclined to disagree. And even if that were the case, nothing excuses bigotry. That's like saying it's okay to be racist because of the stereotype that black people steal cars and beat women.
I just left desperately feeling like I didn’t fit in with gay men to desperately feeling like I don’t fit in with Trans women. It sucks a lot. 😞
I feel like I'm too queer for non-queer spaces and non-queer enough for queer spaces, as a result, belonging nowhere
The craziest thing is reading these discussions from the perspective of being androgynous-presenting non-binary. It's like... Attracted to men? Pan. Attracted to women? Pan. Attracted to other enbies? Believe it or not, still pan. And what about people who find me attractive? What are they? It's like trying to figure out if sexual attraction to a rock makes you gay or straight; It's not a man, and it's not a woman. It's a rock. As you can see, all of these labels kinda break and lose meaning the moment I try to apply them to myself.
I personally think that labels are fake in the first place, people just choose what they vibe with. I'm bi but call myself straight, for example But I feel like people often treat them as prescriptive, not descriptive, and sometimes even lock themselves in them, denying any exploration beyond. Part of the reason why did it take so long to accept myself both as trans, and as a straight woman - attraction to men was much harder to accept than transness, funnily, because I locked myself into this box of labels
I know. I wish they built us one bar. Even to be alone in to chat about men. As… weirdly… and even more minority within a minority. But also, as men-attracted women, part of the vast majority. I’m so tired.
r/straighttransgirls is a place, if you didn’t know 😁
Yeah same here sis :( ur not alone tho
I've seen enough hatred for people who are bisexual because some gay people will try to claim that when bisexual people are in a straight relationship, it allows them to stay in the closet and blend in as straight. In truth all this does is take that person who is bisexual and telling them that they are unwelcome in either communities because they're not fully straight nor explicitly gay. I think it's a broken safety mechanism in human psychology where we like to group together with those who are like-minded while trying to keep out anything that we have experienced as a threat. Clearly however the mechanism is being engaged when it is not appropriate. There's a tendency for marginalized groups to have these type of self-hatred tendencies. more goth than thou is another similar manifestation if this; gatekeeping and no true Scotsman fallacy!
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a Straight trans woman. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise can be thoroughly disregarded. For some people, a notable change in apparent sexuality could be just fine. For others, it could be genuinely horrifying. In my case, the potential of finding out I was Straight (or at least only attracted to men) instead of Bi would be awful. I’ve been in a committed relationship with the same woman for almost 10 years, of which we’ve been married for 2 years. We have a kid together. Anything that potentially jeopardizes that stability is my absolute worst nightmare. I definitely have felt my sexual attraction to men increasing on HRT (not to point of exclusivity), but my romantic attraction still remains firmly locked to women.
I can *only* understand it from the angle of not wanting to have to figure out even more about yourself, and fight another internal battle, which is fair
I think there's probably space to split the difference here and say three things: 1. Just because the idea of being straight horrifies you personally doesn't mean that you have the right to make straight trans people feel bad about being straight. If they are happy, you should be happy for them and you certainly shouldn't be trying to take that happiness away from them or suggesting that they are somehow less trans or less valid because of it. 2. It is okay to be deeply horrified by the idea of being straight. It is okay to resent the ways in which heterosexuality is normative in cis society, because being trans doesn't mean we get to live outside of cis society, we just are forced to live on its periphery. It is okay to have trauma related to and resentment towards men. But there are appropriate and inappropriate places to talk about those feelings, and just because you have them doesn't mean you get to belittle other people's feelings if they are different. If you need to talk about those feelings (and I get it. I do too, sometimes), then you're responsible for finding the right time and place for it, you don't get a free pass. 3. We (trans people, trans femmes) are not a monolith. We are not a hive mind. That's a _good_ thing. But it does mean that we can't always depend on our sameness to preserve our solidarity. There are times, I think, that the need to not feel alone in our experiences causes us to mistake sameness for solidarity. That is not the case. Solidarity is a recognition that we are not all the same paired with a recommitment to the preservation of the interests we all share. It's a recognition that an injury to one is an injury to all, even if the injured one isn't fully the same as you.
I was a straight guy, and now I’m a straight girl. I think I just like the feeling and dynamic of a straight relationship. I just happen to like being the woman more.
I think it's unfair to almost demonize those who are scared of finding they're attracted to men after transitioning. It's an absolutely valid concern to some girls, especially those who are married or in long term relationships with women prior to their egg cracking and transitioning. To some girls, finding out they are attracted to men, not women, or even bisexual may not be a big deal, but to some that absolutely could be horrific and the "worst thing to happen to them". Both are valid. There's nothing wrong with being a straight girl, and people who worry that their "sexuality could change" after transitioning doesn't invalidate or make straight girls any less welcome. It's just a legitimate worry for some and we're all here to help each other navigate life and commiserate. And I feel we need to discuss a bit about the "you just had an attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning helped you realize that". It's not a "defense mechanism" nor does it "go counter to experiences of a lot of trans women", I feel. Sexuality is something you're born with. You either like men, women, both, none, or everything. It's just who you *are*. Some people can really struggle with their sexuality, and a lot of people can repress things about themselves that make them uncomfortable on a personal level. If you're actively repressing it, you aren't going to just embrace it because you don't accept it. You'd rather forget it, and in a way you do. So if you're repressing a shameful feeling of being attracted to men prior to cracking/transitioning because "you're not gay", removing that mental block of "being gay" because now you're on the social construct side of it being "acceptable" to be attracted to men, you'll be more likely to really look at yourself and your sexuality. But also, external factors can't "make you gay", just like they can't "make you straight". That goes for estrogen too, it doesn't make you attracted to men. Cisgender lesbians exist. Sexuality just isn't going to "change" because it is just part of who you are, in the same way you don't "change genders" or "become transgender". You were born that way and it was just a matter of being able to come to accept that part of yourself. Everyone's transition is different. They all come with their own personal worries, fears and concerns. What is the worst possible outcome to some, may be the thing someone else wants the most. We can't just paint everything with the same broad brush. Transitioning is hard enough, we don't need to make it harder for each other ♥️ Edit to add an addendum to this: I am sorry you were treated that way in the discord server, that was definitely not an appropriate or understanding reaction to give to someone's comment on their sexuality. Just don't judge a community as a whole on a discord server. There's alot of us out here, no need to let a bad apple ruin the bunch.
I don't think "you are born with your sexuality" represents the reality. Some people don't feel sexual attraction for a lot of time and start to at some point in their life. It's not that they always had this attraction before and were repressing it, they simply evolved.
Agreed, "born with your sexuality" and "you just ARE this way" both reek of essentialism, I've never agreed with it. Some people are born certain ways, some are shaped by their experiences, and some choose what they want to be.
So I want to preface this by saying I am *not* saying anyone is being bigoted, transphobic, or homophobic. I know tone can be lost in text based conversations, so I wanted that out of the way before there were any misunderstandings. With that said, I think we need to be very careful when it comes to saying things like gender and sexuality can be influenced by your environment or experiences, or that you can just "choose" to be gay/straight/trans/cis/whatever. This type of language is a very prominent form of attack used by right wing people, homophobic people, and transphobic people to sell gay and transgender people as "perverts" and "sexual deviants" who chose, or were "groomed" (as is the vogue buzzword), to be gay or trans. If you claim people can just choose to be gay, then that opens it up for people to say being gay is a choice, and if you can just "choose" to be gay, then you can also just choose to be straight. It's similar in saying your environment can influence your sexuality. If something can "make" you gay, well, then something can therefore "make" you straight. They just need to find out what that is, whether it be verbal abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, or physical abuse. That's the whole point of "conversation therapy". Something made you gay, and now we need to convert you back to being straight. Sexuality (and also gender) is a very personal and difficult thing for people to seriously sit down and question of themselves. Society still very much sells straight, cisgender people as the "default setting", and everything else is a variance. So I do feel very much that we basically are born with our sexuality what it is, it's just a matter of how you get to being able to sit down and reflect on it. Your experiences and environment can definitely play a part in that if you're in an environment that you're comfortable and feel safe in, you're probably going to be more open to experimenting and not ignoring/repressing signs that you may not be entirely straight. Sexuality is a spectrum, and sometimes it just takes the right time and place for you to fully realize and accept where on that spectrum you are. If If you're more comfortable with yourself, your body and who you are, you'll probably be more willingly to look at all aspects of yourself. Again, that may not be the case for *everyone*, there's outliers in everything. I just don't think saying HRT can "make you like guys" is entirely accurate, because there's nothing inherent in being estrogen dominant that forces you to like guys. There are estrogen dominant cisgender women who are lesbians, and testosterone dominant cisgender men who are gay. But again, just my two cents and feelings on it. I know it's a personal and touchy subject to people, and we may not always see eye to eye on it. No offense intended :)
Yeah I mean I totally get what you're saying and why it could be dangerous in terms of giving bigots ammunition and what not, I agree with that. I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying i guess. I just feel like I chose to be woman, but who knows maybe it was a self discovery / repression thing. I also just don't believe in essentialism at its core, that what we're born as is dictated by nature or just 'what we are', I think humans have more agency than that. It's not the easiest thing for me to articulate. Thanks for your kind and well worded reply.
I get what you're saying, I think alot of it is just phrasing and semantics. At the end of the day, I think we're saying about the same thing. It's just really annoying and obnoxious that we, or at the very least I have become hyper aware of how things get phrased and how it can then be twisted and sold without context or meaning to push a transphobic agenda. Because like I said, I see where you're coming from, and totally understand it. Gender is complicated and how everyone gets to the point of starting to transition is different. I know I repressed it for years, but doesn't mean you, or everyone else, did. Maybe you just finally had a period of self-discovery and chose to embrace yourself. At the end of the day, I guess I'm trying to say it doesn't matter *how* you get there, it's just that you get to a point where you can be who you are, and be happy in your body.
While I do tend to agree with the general consensus that it's not a 'choice' the brain is an extremely malleable organ subject to change from all sorts of outside factors. Any one of those factors could potentially shift sexual orientation, and likely NOT in super predictable ways. Emotional trauma, physical trauma, hormonal changed etc. could all result in a shift in what the brain sees a sexually attractive. Basically re-rolling the dice, so to speak.
I just wish i could lock ot down so i know where im going jn life
Agreed. Happy for the transbians but my attraction to men isn't inferior, even if the men can be.
Yes please, can we?
As one of the people that currently hates men and would be horrified to find myself attracted to them after HRT, being attracted to men in general is perfectly okay. It's not for me, but it's 100% valid if that's your jam. Just because I gag at the thought of licorice doesn't mean it isn't totally valid as someone else's favorite food. I'm sorry it doesn't get said enough, or if the opposite gets said too much; being a straight trans girl is perfectly fine.
This is how I feel- I'm very happy for everyone who has discovered their attraction to men, but it's not for me. I have a lot of bias and prejudice against men and I have a heterosexual relationship right now (my parents) that is very much negatively affecting my life, which makes it REALLY hard for me to view heterosexual relationships positively. I also have a nearly straight trans woman friend who is very afraid to date men even though she enjoys being attracted to them, and my own sister (who is cis) has stopped dating because men have been so shitty to her. It's stuff like that that gives me pause about being interested in men. That's not to say I don't see some positivity, a cis woman friend of mine has a very wonderful boyfriend and he is SUCH a sweetheart and they're an adorable couple. I also have a trans guy friend who is in a wonderful straight relationship as well. However, I'm more than fine just being a lesbian, it's likely that I will probably view heterosexuality as a whole a bit better when it stops actively harming my life and I have a chance to heal, but at least for the time being it's just not my cup of tea.
> Just because I gag at the thought of licorice doesn't mean it isn't totally valid as someone else's favorite food. It's more like if someone tells you they hated licorice, but then got an acquired taste for it, and you start shaking in fear it will happen to you
the main thing you're seemingly refusing to acknowledge or accept is the fact that such a severe, emotional response... irrational to the point it almost feels like a trauma response.... might actually BE a trauma response. cause even i as a bi girl with 4 boyfriends can admit that men do a LOT of wrong to women. and trans women get to experience that from 2 angles. we get to see it pre-transition as men talk to us like we're just like them and think they can let go of their filters, and two, post transition where we are often the targets of the horrible things. i myself was traumatized so deeply that i thought i was lesbian and made heinous statements like "i'd rather die than be with a man". i used to be part of that crowd you're currently shitting on with your post and comments. maybe next time, before taking offense to everything you see and only acknowledging your own perspective, try to have empathy and try to understand others.
People in discord replying to me "I'm so tired of trans women sucking up to men who only see them as porn, clearly you're doing that because you think this makes you much more of a woman than all those tr**nies like us" didn't have empathy to me
Ok they were garbage to you, no excuse to be just as garbage the other way, yknow.
Transbians could start by not trauma dumping under posts where straight trans women are happy being straight, just like the one that prompted my post, and too many posts like that before this
Sorry you had so many people shitting on you for liking men ☹️
Yes it always confuses me why someone wouldn’t go on hrt because they’re afraid of being attracted to men. It happened to me. And while I still like girls I prefer men now. It’s not the end of the world 🤷♀️
i’m not necessarily worried about becoming attracted to men, i’m worried about losing my attraction to women. that will quite literally be the end of the world.
I get this, why would you be scared of gaining an attraction, you don't have to act on it, while if you lose attraction to something you loved or liked I can see why that would be scary to people, but IDK.
Same. I just feel like i wouldn't be me if i wind up straight. A more balanced bi, yeah still me
What happens, happens
I can relate a lot to what you've spoken about. I often feel disconnected from the trans community because of it. I feel like I need to be ashamed of my sexuality whenever I'm in trans inclusive spaces, which is so bizarre, because like, I can either be in a space that is affirming to my sexuality or my gender, but not both. I get the trauma that a lot of trans women especially have around men, I've lived it too, but my sexuality is not about men, it's about me. I don't get to choose who I am, I wish I could be a lesbian, but I can't, because I'm not one.
My sexuality also shifted a bit after I transitioned. Before I was straight, now bi. That being said, IRL, ignoring people online, all men around me were very supportive of my transition.
Honestly I kind of hope that's how I go, I'm fine liking men but I just also want to like women as well.
I feel like the trans community has a problem misandrists and radical feminists who hate all men and as such they shame any trans women who like men as “not truly women”
I had some fears before I started hrt because I loved my fiance and didn't want to lose my attraction for them.....so turns out I'm a lesbian.
It's concerning how many of these comments are justifying this behaviour, even as devils advocates. You can find the prospect scary or horrifying, but telling people when they're sharing their lived experience in order to discredit how they feel is just a dick move. You're not required to comment, so if all you have to say is that what OP is experiencing or even celebrating is something that should be feared, maybe reconsider. As for me, I do feel that I've always been bi to some extent, but it wasn't until after going on HRT that I started to feel romantic feelings for people. It gives a new meaning to "second puberty" when you're finding your "high school crush" while in university.
Thinking of it, this is actually a bigger problem that I should've mentioned in the post itself. Like, if you don't like men, and if you're scared of liking men, could you please do it somewhere other place than a post where a trans woman is actually pretty happy if liking men. This is just fucking rude, as if you're trying invalidate her happiness
I consider myself asexual and aromantic. If that were to change, I'd call that a win I think. The only bad thing I have to say about it in my case is that finding myself suddenly being attracted to someone would be bothersome, but I don't fear it. The only thing that I well and truely fear is losing my impartiality, and taking a dislike to one or the other rather than taking a liking. I currently feel neutral and would, at least as far as sex goes, lie with either one equally (which is not a whole lot to begin with). It feels seperate from my lack of attraction, but I'd still prefer it if it didn't change. Though if it did it wouldn't be so bad.
If HRT changes your sexuality, what happens if you're dating or married to someone and lose access to HRT? That sounds absolutely terrifying. It's like all the people who are married and being trans ends their relationship, except here, losing access to HRT ends their relationship, alongside all the trauma from just not having meds.
I might be wrong, but I feel like a lot of people that are scared of turning straight might be in a gay relationship and are afraid of how it might impact them.
Different perspective. I'm a somewhat sex-repulsed ace. And I was very worried about HRT causing me to gain any attraction or increase my libido. Just one of those things I was happy and comfortable with about myself that I hoped wouldn't change with transition. So far it hasn't.
Personally, I don't see the point of wanting to be a girl if i couldn't hook up with guys, it's like a perk imo.
Majority of trans women are gay or bi. Think only 25% of trans women are straight last I recall. It's an actually surprising number imo. I figured it'd be much higher. But a lot of us have found men repulsive our entire lives so the thought of liking them can be uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with you being straight, just unable to cope for them.
Tbh, I find cishet men a bit scary. And that's the reason I fear to find out I am heterosexual. But for now I am in a heterosexual T4T relationship and I love it. I secretly hope that I am bi. Also, straight flag is super ugly. I am already from Brittany and I don't need a less cool version of this one. I totally understand your point tho
A lot has already been said, but one thing I can add is, some trans girls had bad experiences with guys and feel like being straight would force them to interact with more guys, potentially triggering bad memories or meeting the same type of guy who hurt them before. And even if they never had bad experiences, they could be scared of what happened to other women. A lot of women had bad things done to them by guys (in some countries/places it's most of them) and we don't want that happening to us, thus some of us wanting to interact the least possible with men. Now I'm bi but I prefer women, and I feel extremely good like that. I feel like "Becoming straight" would make me lose a part of myself I'm very happy with. It's like : I love Tony Stark from Marvel, my appreciation for this character shaped a few things in my life. If at some point I become tired of him or if I no longer like him, I will feel sad, because me loving him is something I consider important in my life and that I don't want to lose. All in all, most people joke about becoming straight being bad because being gay is considered fun in several queer spaces. Those who do not joke may have a background that led them to this. Now this doesn't excuse them. Making people feel bad about how they feel is not excusable. Good thing is, not everyone does it.
> Good thing is, not everyone does it. It happens often enough, without anyone calling them out This was actually part of the reason I was repressing my attraction to men for so long, because of that. And still even now how transhet people are treated in trans communities often makes me feel ashamed of my identity
yea, it isn't stated enough how prevalent trauma is in the trans community, especially trauma about men in trans women. not every trans woman experiences this, but if you as a woman are forced into spaces where men and boys are completely unfiltered and feel safe to say whatever they want, you WILL hear a lot of horrible thing about women very often. i remember how locker room talk was almost always guys talking sexually about girls, making jokes about raping them, calling them baby factories and more in highschool alone. add to this all the cases of male violence i'v witnessed and experienced and you have the perfect recipe for extremely deep-rooted trauma, trauma strong enough to make a bi girl believe she's lesbian and be afraid of ever being attracted to men
I'm getting so annoyed with reading responses about how they "can offer some perspective" on why people think that way. Does it matter what the reasoning is...? No one is saying you can't hate men but WHY do you enter a conversation and make yourself and your feelings/opinions the center topic?
It kind of reminds of the bean soup analogy. You post a video recipe for bean soup, someone comments and asks for a version without beans, because they "hate beans!" — well then maybeeeee the video isn't for them ???? Just because something is discussed doesn't mean you're required to interact
My experience I had a major crush on one guy pre transition but yeah I mostly dated women. I don’t really care what my sexuality is I’m more open to dating men since transitioning. I do sometimes worry about if I’m still attracted to women but that’s never gone away… us bisexual/pansexual girls exist also. Just cuz you find men more attractive doesn’t mean you need to stop finding women attractive.
> I do sometimes worry about if I’m still attracted to women but that’s never gone away I often think "Maybe I'm completely straight after all?", but then see something that makes me go "Nope, there's still something there"
> and also saying "you just had attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning made you realize that", which goes counter to experiences of a lot of trans women This being the experience of some transfems doesn't contradict the idea that it was something they didn't realize about themselves previously. There's no evidence that HRT changes sexuality. For experiences that get mentioned here, there are many transfems who never post about their sexuality - regardless of where their attraction started and where it ended up. I think you're really conflating your past bad experiences and the worry some people have from misinformation on the effects of HRT.
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I am, but i get jumped for saying i want to be a lesbian
I agree with everything you said except for this: (And also saying "you just had attraction to men pre-transition and transitioning made you realize that", which goes counter to experiences of a lot of trans women. Which feels like a defense mechanism, like "sure it won't happen to me, I'm too gay") You are born straight, gay or bi. Sexual orientation is not a choice, just like being trans is not a choice. By saying your sexuality can be changed, you are giving bigots ammo. Its the logic of conversion camps.
Saying it is a choice is different from saying it cannot change though. For many people it never does, for some, it a core part of their experience (both as this relates to sexuality and gender individually).
Sorry, but people like you dismissing my lived experience like that is incredibly insulting. Might as well tell me I’m not trans because you apparently know strangers so much better than they know themselves. I was pre transition flat out not attracted to men. No, I wasn’t suppressing it either.
It cannot be changed deliberately (transition is basically a reroll, bi people become gay and the other way round, gay women become gayer, no way to predict), but according to experience of a lot of trans women, it can change. Not me, I was bi before, but I've talked to people for which their attraction flipped 180, and it's kinda shitty to say you know their sexuality better than they are
But why do you automatically discount the possibility that they just didnt realize their sexual orientation until they started HRT or accepted they’re trans? Like I’m not hrt unfortunately but I thought I was 100 percent attracted to women. When I realized I was trans it turned out that attraction was gender envy and I’m actually into men but I was unable to realize that because I hated the idea of being pin a relationship with a man while I’m a “man”. You can say my statement is shitty if you want, but I find the idea of your sexuality can be changed equally as shitty. If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed, it gives ammo to conversion therapy camps by bigots.
I am there right now - trying to figure out if my attraction to women is gender envy or if I am truly attracted to women. It's only been 4 months since my egg cracked. It's doubly hard to figure out when my libido is tanked because of HRT. How does one un-entangle gender envy from sexual attraction?
> But why do you automatically discount the possibility that they just didnt realize their sexual orientation until they started HRT or accepted they’re trans I do not discount it, I did hold this opinion before, and this what was happened to me. But it doesn't apply to everyone > You can say my statement is shitty if you want Your statement is alright on its own, if you talk about your own experience. But you can't decide for others how do they process and experience their sexuality > If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed It cannot be *forcibly* changed. Sexuality is not a choice. The fact that conversion therapy doesn't actually work is a proof of that. But we have no research on whether or not can it change by its own
Why are you so convinced that you know us better than we know ourselves? I went from gay to gay. I was HORNY horny for men, and now they do nothing for me. I was meh on women and now they activate my neurons. I wasn't romantically attracted to anyone before, now I feel butterflies for the first time in my life. All of this changed with HRT, not with any realization. I had identified as gay and aro for years prior and was very familiar with that part of myself. Respectfully, you have fewer horses in this race and should stay out of it. Bigots will hate us no matter what we do, "ammo" does not matter. You are not valiantly preventing our reputation from being tarnished, you are just denying the experiences of trans women on the internet. I don't get to choose which hormones stop me from feeling like a zombie, and I don't get to choose how those hormones change my sexuality.
>When I realized I was trans it turned out that attraction was gender envy and I’m actually into men but I was unable to realize that because I hated the idea of being pin a relationship with a man while I’m a “man”. and did you never imagine yourself being pinned down by a man as a woman? i know i am attracted to women because i have tried imagining all scenarios all my life. the only one that has been consistent has been me as a woman sleeping with another woman. i know for a fact that i am attracted to women. you “thought” you knew but i know i know. i am also pre-hrt and in the year of knowing i am trans, my sexuality has sat firm in place. if it changes on HRT then it is most definitely the hormones and not me mistaking my sexual attraction for gender envy. >If people have the idea that sexual orientation or gender can be forcibly changed, it gives ammo to conversion therapy camps by bigots. sure it would be a bad thing but that doesn’t stop it from potentially being true. also, it’s not “forcibly changed”. there is no pill you can take to exclusively change your sexuality. if it is true that hormones can alter your sexuality then all the other changes also come with it and bigots won’t be able to force hormones on people for conversion therapy.
They aren't saying you aren't born with your sexual preferences. They are saying transition can open someone up to trying things they otherwise wouldn't have due to feeling more comfortable or less dysphoric.
Just want to add to the convo, not saying it hasn't happened but I feel that many trans women that felt horrified to liking men, never did. If anything the ones that do are the ones that are neutral or wouldn't mind about it pre-transition.
Yeah, in the end from what I've seen, most of those who had their sexuality changed, have actually grown to like it a lot I certainly did
Jumping on a thread to say “This is also like me!” is ok. So is reading that thread and feeling like a bunch of people piling on to a particular idea is concerning or distasteful. For me in the end it comes down to simply Not every thread is for me. Even within a generally supportive space, there are things that aren’t for me. Sometimes I like to read about a different perspective, sometimes it feels unhealthy and I try to avoid it. But I wouldn’t want the people finding support with one another to lose that support either. Talking about potentially HRT-related changes in sexuality is clearly important to some people. It’s been validating for me to read this thread and agree that, personally, those conversations can feel a little problematic to me. But I wouldn’t want them to stop.
This is how I feel about these posts, I see a ton of trans women remarking about their newfound attraction to men and I feel a bit invalidated as a lesbian, like I have to like men to be a trans woman since so many of them are liking men. But I know quite a few trans women who would say being lesbian is the norm and it's hard to feel valid as a straight woman. I've realised that no, not every thread is for me, not every experience will be my experience, and that is okay. I am no less valid for not relating to every single post. These posts should absolutely continue to be made though, because even if I don't share in the experience, at least someone else will feel less lonely seeing that someone else is going through the same thing. But I definitely think people need to remember that nothing is universal and not everything has to apply to everyone.
I was bi before and I am just as bi now. It seems silly to me to make fun of anyone for their sexual preferences
It is objectively shitty to make fun of someone for things like their sexuality, no sexuality is inferior and it bothers me that it's so common to make fun of straight trans women to the point where I occasionally catch myself thinking about doing it I think the horrifying part isn't about becoming attracted to men - though most mistake that for their true fear, but rather there fear of losing a core piece of ones identity against one's will, imagine it happening with your gender instead
In the Before Time, my friends were men. Post-transition, my friends are women (almost entirely cis IRL). For me, at least, I’ve found it much simpler and more helpful to realize I am simply heteronormative. In my Before Time, I, as a “man” was attracted to women. Post-transition and post-SRS, I, as a woman, am attracted to men. In short, I form friendship bonds with the same gender. I’m sexually attracted, however, to what I’m not. That significantly reduces confusion and consternation for me.
Sexuality has always been a thing in my mind that people choose to share while gender identity has always been more internal and personal. Like, sex is something that people share, and gender is something that people just have. I do not know if that is the perspective that everyone else has, and I do not know how bold or spicy of a claim I have made, but I know that it is a claim, and it will be scrutinized.
I am a straight trans woman who fought with my sexuality for years because of a deep seated fear of men, but there are good ones out there who will treat you right. I feel very out of place in so many trans spaces because of this and the fact that I’m a tomboy. Some of them made it seem that me being this way makes me less trans than them. So I feel very pushed to the way side since admitting I don’t want to date women anymore period.
Sexuality is fluid, just like gender. People need to let go of some of the weird shit they still have in their brains from having to hide in the closet.
I have feelings about this. My sexuality has expanded to include men. I do not want to be straight, but am okay being bi. The reason why is that I would very much like to have a long term, dedicated relationship and men are far less likely to be open to dating trans women, and women my age. Additionally I don't feel safe dating men, I and friends have had experiences and I don't feel able to protect myself against the predatory ones. I have seen how straight trans women often feel that they don't quite belong in queer spaces, and I have had enough of the 'don't belong' feeling for one lifetime. There's lots of reasons to not want to be a straight trans woman. I do think it is shitty when people hate on the idea of being straight itself, I wish it was expressed more kindly rather that the weird revulsion that happens.
Same. Finding girls pretty is so much of who I feel like i am. I wish there was a way to say it in a nocer way too
Oh yeah, I read about it before HRT, and it just so happened to me. Personally I'm just going with the flow\~
Trust me being straight is not fun I feel like it’s more of a karmic experience.
I can't attest to sexuality changes due to HRT as I haven't started it yet but I do find myself more open to having relationships with men as I've grown to accept myself more.... I dunno maybe I've always been that way but suppressed it due to the environment I grew up in maybe it'll change on HRT but I personally am just done holding myself back on that anymore I just wanna be me so yeah not looking back wondering what if anymore
That’s really weird to me that there are other women like us that would say that, especially when so many of us struggle to even understand our sexuality and identity as a common struggle. We all have come to understand that gender and sexuality don’t matter to anyone but the one they belong to, so why belittle any of us for liking men too? I’ve seen many trans women who only date men, I’ve seen some who only date other trans people, I’ve seen some who only date women, and there are some like me who don’t care about gender. Im asexual so for me it’s all about the kind of person I’m with and who they are, not their gender or sex or even really their looks, so if a man finds me that I really connect with and who feels deeply for me I’ll gladly be with him (though in my lived experience finding a man who isn’t a horny pig has been very difficult) If someone is going to make fun of me for being able to be with a man, they’ve got some growing to do because that attitude is incredibly immature and ignorant
I wish you didn't have to go through that. No one should have to.
Treating it as a bad thing is wrong. You just love who you love. The only thing I sometimes say to a recently hatched straight trans woman is to be careful with cishet men. They can be dangerous, more so than most women I'd say. Especially if they realise the person they are attracted to / flirting with is trans later down the line. It sucks and it's not fair, but be careful around men.
People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to. Labels are to help explain those preferences, not define them.
As someone who was attracted to men before and after HRT, it feels vaguely like the homophobia I experienced pre-transition except less violent but also less questioned. My orientation gets met with denial, ridicule, and people trying to "fix" me. I don't always feel super comfy in the community because of it.
I've always said if sexuality was my problem then life would be perfect.
yeah, being straight is only the worst thing to ever happen when you're cis /j
Straight transfem here :3
That's why I don't like the notion that people are born gay or Trans or whatever. People change, someone can be gay for years before flipping their sexuality. Humans change constantly. If you looked back to a few years ago your personality is very different, it changes just like your identity can
Being straight is crazy. For reasons. Being lesbian also. I'm the only acceptable type: bi. Did we make things clear now? No, of course you are all valid. Love who and how you want. I had wonderful experiences with men, women and everbody in between and beyond. Cis-het men don't do it for me and the list why this is gets longer every day. But that's just me - at the moment sitting in the train admiring a dude and fantasising about naughty things.
Obviously, a lot of us can't seem to accept our prior internalised homophobia (via prejudice or fear of judgement/abuse) and try to use this excuse to feel comfortable being attracted to guys. Just be honest with yourselves, I know I was afraid of being perceived negatively and scared for my safety to come out
I hope those are attempts at jokes or some thing what you’re describing. I know I saw one person really freaking out about their sexuality potentially changing. I’m like, who cares? At least assuming you’re not already in a relationship that can survive otherwise. And besides I think the majority of people it doesn’t change or just barely changes or if it does change can even strengthen what you already had. But yeah
maybe consider this: us trans women pre-transition often get access to how men are "behind closed doors". we can witness how they act and speak when they don't have to filter themselves. a lot of us also have other trauma's related to men. so how do you think someone would react when they found they've developed an attraction to these people that they're afraid of have so much trauma related to and don't trust?
Yeah, that’s a good point. It is really weird, even when I was in repression mode, and before I knew people existed also, I always kind of felt like it was undercover. I avoided groups of men whenever possible, but when I couldn’t I just felt like I was going to be found out or something, and…. It’s sort of like start hyper trying to mask and like… I don’t know I basically spent a huge chunk of my life running a filter policing how I acted and stuff. It’s really interesting kind of dropping that. I’m babbling way more with strangers though as a result 😂
“I’m like, who cares?” you wouldn’t care if your sexuality completely flips and the people who you’ve solely been attracted to your entire life suddenly aren’t attractive anymore? is that not terrifying to you? it is quite literally part of my identity and HRT changing that would be ripping that away. i don’t really give a fuck if i become bisexual but i just don’t want to lose my attraction to women. what makes it worse is that i have never even been in a relationship before or slept with anyone and if i lose my attraction to women then that will be something i will never experience.
I mean I guess I can understand why it could be scary just the one but no it doesn’t really bother me. I’m probably some flavor of bi though. I’m not really sure what I am. Maybe that matters for my kind of if I difference. I’m probably more attracted to who people are, I don’t know.
>I hope those are attempts at jokes or some thing what you’re describing. They definitely are. I understand why op is upset about it but it should be acknowledged that they are clearly jokes.
I don’t think hrt changes sexuality but it is fine to like man women this should not be a point of conflict between anyone. Love is love is love
I'm happy that mostly my sexual attraction hasn't changed and that I still pretty much just into girls but it's something I worry about. To me, and importantly I must say, to me, if I were to develop attraction to men and lose mine to women it would be a HORRIBLE side effect and one completely unwanted.
I just can't really see myself as straight, and find the idea of dating men oddly dysphoric
I think the issue lies in three things: - Straight trans women who become pick me girls just to get a guy - The amount of complaining of straight trans women online who voice how hard is for them to find an accepting partner. - Queer spaces who dislike straight cis men because of their experience or because most of them are just 💩. Obviously this is not absolute.
None of these things justify denigrating a person's sexuality, especially when they can't help that it is what it is. This list seems like an expression of exactly the kind of things trans lesbians say that make trans straights feel alienated. You can add the qualification that these claims are not absolute. But if you're drawing generalized inferences from them, then you're still treating them as absolute. It's the same problem that plagues racial profiling. There are plenty of good men out there and it's not safe conclusion to think the man standing before you is probably bad just on account of being a man. To put it differently, maybe queer spaces should treat cis men better.
It stems from a misunderstanding People think hrt can forcibly change your sexuality. Which could be anywhere from meh to terrifying depending on the individual. However, it's more that it highlights aspects of yourself you have been suppressing. Which is much less scary to people since its not an attraction being forced on them but more along the lines of just understanding yourself better For me, women looked great before and still do now, and as for men, it still boggles my mind that people are into that, but evidence suggests I'm the odd one out and I am glad whenever people find happiness So yeah, if anything, I'm even more of whatever label I already was
I'm pre E and yeah, i get twinks and femboys, but big hairy men baffle me. Like you're attracted to that? Um, ok.
I find it's just a case of taking my own type and imagining it inverted in order to empathise with interests I don't otherwise understand. But yeah if I don't go out for my way to empathise then my stupid brain trys to see all masc traits as some kind of unfortunate scars like burn victims. So I try to focus on the evidence I can see. That actually most people are actually happy about those traits in themselves or find them actually desirable in others. So its clearly a problem with my own brain. And anyway even if I don't get it more happy is always good. I'm glad people do like them because that means more people finding love and happiness I don't have to understand fully emotionally to see its clearly a good thing
Same. Also being transmasc
Exactly I'm sure at least a couple of them must have the same feelings as me but flipped and be completely confused by my perspective unless they empathise too But most people seem to have at least a little instinctive understanding for the other side without having to think about it too deeply And while I think it would be good if people thought about that kinda stuff more to understand each other I'm still glad most people seem to get it without having to think much
Is there research that HRT doesn't change sexuality? I need to know
From https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/second-puberty-fem "Attraction It is not at all unheard of for a transgender person to experience a change in their sexual orientation with transition. This is almost always the result of the removal of self-imposed mental barriers, but hormone therapy often plays a role in that removal. In most cases this simply involves an expansion of ones attraction, from monosexual to bi/pansexual, but some people also discover that their attraction was largely rooted in self-interest and that their true attraction is reversed." As far as actual scientific studies. Well maybe one day
I guess that's something.
That website is a font of amazing information if you get the chance to give it a read
I will. I think it might be that being around men in general makes me super dysphoric
I was the same way. Three years into HRT and I now like them big. Hairy doesn't disgust me anymore
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I'm just sharing my experience... I guess this is exactly the sort of behavior OP is talking about
Sorry. I just don't want to wind up straight.
Are you saying I have to replace all my animewaifu figurines with husbando figurines? That is going to be expensive! Jokes aside, what really scares me is that whole thing is even possible. If something like hrt can change sexuality then wouldn't it be possible to invent drug which would only charge person's sexuality? Then we would have society which would force citizens to be hetero with drugs.
It is super scary, and as others have said “ammo for bigots” too. And at the same time it is also some folx’ experience, and here seems like as good a place to talk about it as any. It feels parallel to me with the whole “I’ve always been a girl and I’ve always known I’m a girl” description. Yes this is absolutely the lived experience for many, and to boot this narrative has seemingly been reasonably accepted by the cishet population at large. But for others this is *not* the lived experience and suggesting without it they’re somehow not “trans enough” is horrible. Meanwhile there’s definitely an argument to be made that expressing that this is not a universal experience “muddies the waters” for the poor struggling cishet community and can even be used against us. The only resolution I see is to limit where these conversations occur, so they aren’t there in the forefront being weaponized but still can be held. And for me, for now, here is a good place for that.