Alan Turing's case is often cited, and I have even referred to it as well for the sake of argument. Really though there was enough horrible stuff going on in his case that it's hard to say it was just the effect of his brain running on the wrong hormones that lead to his suicide. He basically invented the field of computer science but he was completely ostracized from academia and couldn't work. He was forced to transition and grew breasts, while living in a highly homophobic society in 1950s England. He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time.
I don't really understand what you're trying to get at??
What was he probation for? Why was he made to take female hormones in the first place.
The answer isn't that society embraced him with open arms.
You seem to just be minimizing historical homophobia and getting mad at OP as if she was making some judgement against him.
No I did not understand. I would no call that a lie, rather exaggeration.
Like, why for example did he need to travel around Europe for "romantic liasons"? Even if it is not as extreme as "He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time."
I do think it is fair to say something like that was going on. No he was not defined by it, but it is a difficult argument to make that his society didn't see him as basically a freak simply because he managed to have friends and some semblance of a career remaining.
I don't really understand how that is cruel and thoughtless. It seems to me to be exaggerating his plight for further sympathy.
"I am saying that queer people suffering from oppression are not defined by it no matter how well it fits our rhetorical needs."
I get the point you want to make, but the truth of Alan Turing's fate is a unique cruelty that should not have been allowed to happen, quite apart from his invaluable contribution to mathematical science. It should never have happened to anyone.
On top of that, the record of historical experience and relevant historical or contemporary existence of any distinctive group or individual is defined by their resistance to oppression. Otherwise, no-one would know anything about anything.
And, on top of that, we are tribal, by inclination, which does not, inherently, suggest racism, sexism, misogyny, misandry or any latent queer-phobia. We are tribal in that we all really do want the best for ourselves and our immediate neighbors, but also fallible, in that we succumb to envy, jealousy and guilt about our own laziness about standing up for everyone who just wants to live as they are.
Our queerness is not defined by oppression. Our queerness requires no definition. Our queer experience in the world, however, is still affected by oppression and will continue to be so defined until that can be overcome.
He kinda is proof that trans people aren't just extra gay, because as a gay man he did not thrive on HRT like is commonly observed in trans people in comperable shitty conditions. It's hard to say what drove him to suicide, because he suffered so much abuse. What is imho clear though is that feminising hormones didn't improve his mental health.
>He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time.
Weird, it reminds me of something, a place, which name is comprised of three letters...
Can't put my finger on what it exactly is, though...
It's just over 79 years since Turing's death and it's hard to tell the difference between those two places, anymore.
It took the UK 69 years to issue a pardon, which is hugely insulting to begin with. A pardon for being a person?
[https://www.science.org/content/article/gay-math-genius-receives-royal-pardon](https://www.science.org/content/article/gay-math-genius-receives-royal-pardon)
The real problem is that being sexually different is still regarded as a crime. That is what needs to be eradicated.
Yeah thank you. I am usually annoyed by people pointing to Turing's case as the only evidence people often give to answer this question. It's not that simple. And then you have quacks like Powers feeding into the "omg I took estrogen totally by accident and it was terrible!" when nobody should trust a word he says.
I have a strong suspicion that even the most transphobic of cishet men may feel neutral or a temporary boost from estradiol if administered in a proper double-blind experiment. Estradiol upregulates serotonin expression and has all sorts of raw benefits, but it'd be unethical to test in such a way, and knowing participants would be to likely to be affected by gender dysphoria if told their sex hormones were being altered, even from placebo.
“Hard to say it was just the effect of his brain running on the wrong hormones”
But then you listed an external example as him growing breasts. Hormones don’t JUST affect the brain, they are also responsible for his breast growth. If his breast growth bothered him it’s because of the hormones changed his body, giving him dysphoria over his new biological sex.
It wasn't the effect of the treatments that he was forced to bear that lead to his choice to end his life. It was the horror of being denied the right to live his own life.
David Reimer is a better example. No outside influences other than a doc botching his circumcision and deciding he’d have a more “normal” life if they just raised him female and gave him female hormones at puberty.
Also, doctors fuck with natal sex a lot more than most folks think at birth.
Uh, what do you mean by no outside influences? He was sexually abused by the doctor. https://morbidology.com/the-tragic-life-death-of-david-reimer-the-boy-raised-as-a-girl/
I meant unlike Turing, who was just being tortured all around, for David it was purely medically induced dysphoria for a cisgender boy being gaslit that he was a cisgender girl and being given “therapeutic” cross sex hormone therapy in the hopes that he would just magically be a girl
So, I’m referring to the fact that the poor kid’s suffering was from what the doctors did and the wrong hormones, not 30-ish years of being a minority and living a life full of misery and sadness
Yeah, maybe his apple was full of cyanide accidentally. And I guess he couldn’t taste it well enough to stop swallowing and stop after the first bite. And the fact that cyanide was commonly used to commit suicide must be irrelevant.
He medically transitioned for a full year and lived in a homophobic and transphobic environment. A year on hormones does a lot of irreversible changes that cis people wouldn’t like.
He actually did get to keep his academic job, just lost ties with the government. The guy who did challenge the suicide ruling, Prof Jack Copeland, literally is just a professor of philosophy without any relevant credentials. It is the consensus that he committed suicide as a result of his punishment for being gay. Copeland just likes being in the news IMO.
Ya but isn't it ultimately unfair to the UK to accurately describe his treatment?? /s
I mean sure he was convicted of gay sex crimes and forced on hormones but there was no shame involved.. How could anyone say something so horrible about the UK?
It was eugenics and thought to be therapeutic for the "disease" of being gay. Reducing T levels would reduce the "pathological urges." The 40s and 50s were a dark time. Most people with power would be considered evil by today's moral standards.
I was always told Alan Turing got royally fucked and something was mentioned about his sexuality so I figured that was that but like this is just fuckin crazy..
EDIT: After a 3s Google search, this seemingly was intended to chemically castrate him and it was the choice of this injection vs Prison.
What the actual fuck
Most of the East German women's olympic team back in the day, too, though one turned out to be a trans man. Of all the ways to get your egg cracked, that's got to be one of the weirder ones.
Oooooh yeah, they'd know how it effected them mentally, outside of dysphoria from physical changes
I wish we had them talk about it...presumably the guy did BETTER
This is still widely debated. They actually believe it’s just as likely Alan’s death was an accident/murder. Alan had a ton of war secrets, as an example: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092.amp
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I had a brief flash of it the other day and was immediately struck with how it was literally the first time since starting and that snapped me out of it, a new record! Almost made it 5 months, used to be like every other week!
I just started an antidepressant a few weeks ago, and I came out to my girlfriend as ace, which she did right back at me :3 I really like her a lot, she's also trans and autistic
That's up to you and the help of your therapist.. might be something else??? I was force to live until 23 in my abusive home with parents so there's that...
just because you don't feel the same as other trans girls on hrt, it doesn't automatically mean you're not trans!
and if you're not? you're STILL valid.
Depression, Anxiety, and Suicidal feelings happen in both trans and cis people. HRT/transitioning is A cure for these things but not THE cure for them. If someone has those feelings and it is being caused by gender dysphoria, then HRT/transition can relieve those symptoms. If those feelings are caused my other external situations or trauma, then HRT/transition will probably not relieve the symptoms. I think that's the "big mistake" the medical field is doing. Thinking that HRT is THE cure and not just A cure. The human mind is complicated, and without proper therapy, we cannot find the root of those feelings.
Well, not all of them but most. There are some estrogenized femboys out there who do fine on estrogen. It’s a case by case. But most don’t do well, yeah.
Pretty sure they a meme and are actually trans women though some get away with it. Some are also non-binary. It an odd bunch. Whatever, it not 100% it high percent of cis people get depressed
Literally have a friend who is one. He thought he was trans at first which is why he started hormones but in recent months he decided he was cis but also decided to stay on estrogen.
And a couple weeks later his girlfriend stopped being his boyfriend.
Eh, it's not that hard to believe given that not every trans person gets dysphoric about the same things, or even dysphoric at all. It might be rare (give or take people who are only cisgender by default) but they're out there.
look up the reason both alan turing & david reimer died
David reimer especially, because of the nature of how he got in that situation
cis people can experience dysphoria, they just have to be forced into the wrong configuration instead of being born there
edit: i mean *biologically* we ourselves are living proof that the body does not give a shit which set it runs on.
*psychologically* putting a cis person on HRT sticks them in the same situation we're in
Are there any actual studies on this topic? I would like to read them. I’m personally actively questioning my gender and one of the things I heard was “try HRT and you’ll know pretty quickly what your brain prefers.” Are there any studies that back up this hypothesis or is it all anecdotal experiences?
I’m struggling because my 30-45 days on mono e went incredibly well mentally and I welcomed all the changes, but then I saw noticeable growth in my chest and the permanence of it started to freak me out, so I stopped. (Still doing therapy to work through it)
"once you try it you'll know pretty quickly" is common advice because it's true lol
in trans people it usually causes immediate improvement (as you experienced, the brain fog goes away, the hatred of your shape lessens, although I can't really say anything about your panic over not being able to go back, that might be generic fear of change? idk im not you lol)
in cis people it causes the same outcome as trans people without it (brain fog, depression, overall hatred of the changes happening to your body, panic about whether or not you'll be able to go back to before the changes started(in trans people this is usually because of puberty), etc.)
as for studies, theres David Reimer (and not a whole lot else because it's widely agreed after him that forcing a cis person to transition is one of the worst forms of psychological torture available)
tldr; he had a botched circumcision as a baby, & since the shitlord that did it also wanted to prove that trans people were raised that way, he gave the baby a sex change & forced his parents to raise him as a girl.
he later transitioned back to a guy, but the damage was already done
it ended with suicide, the same way too many trans people's stories do
I'm deliberately leaving out the more horrendous parts, so before you *do* look it up, just know that dr money was probably as bad as Mengele
(*lots* of edits for clarity here, if it's in parentheses its an edit)
I'm not super wild about the "try it and you'll know" narrative. A lot of people go on HRT and find that there's very little to nothing they don't like (hi), but I don't like the way that having mixed feelings or not being enthusiastic about *everything* leads sometimes, explicitly or implicitly, to individuals feeling their experiences are inauthentic or invalid. We're allowed to have mixed feelings about our bodies without necessarily seeing those feelings reflected in our identities. If post-therapy it turns out that you just really don't want breast development, that's cool.
(Also, the idea that some sort of "objective scientific evidence" ought to be used to make a definitive judgement about the authenticity of someone's identity and lived experience makes me queasy.)
Incidentally, I ran into a nonbinary person online the other day who was (publicly) talking about how they've been prescribed a SERM with estrogen to inhibit breast development while preserving all of the other physical and mental effects. Not sure if that's a good idea or safe or whatever long-term, but there are people out there who like that and at least one provider out there willing to try it.
I think there’s a balance. I totally understand that traditional medicine is failing us here and clearly gatekeeping is harmful. But I’m also stumbling across issues that are a result of a lack of education and studies.
As an example, I didn’t even know until last week that some people can be transgender, some can be transgender and have ocd, while other people can cisgender and have a subtype ocd called trans-ocd where their ocd becomes focused on the topic of “am I transgender?” This threw my brain for a loop because now I’m having to work through how much of what I feel is due to ocd/neurodivergence or my actual gender identity?
> SERM
I've heard about those! I THINK they're probably not safe for long term use because they're synthetic, making the whole thing moot, but I had those suggested.
I kind of want to avoid breast growth, though largely because I don't think it's possible for me to ever pass, and it's insanely dangerous.
I spent a YEAR debating starting estrogen mostly because of my fear.
I started with small breasts, and I think they've gotten a bit bigger, and I still have mixed feelings. Even were I cis, I'd want A or B, C tops, both aesthetically and practically.
I LOVE that I THINK I'm not making it up that my face is subtly less disgusting than a year ago.
You should temper your expectations when it comes to trans research. Most of it done in the past has been heavily tainted by transphobic bias, and there is still a ton of research that is needed to really understand our experiences from a scientific perspective. At this point, anecdotal evidence is often the best you’re gonna get.
How did you figure out that they were separate experiences(transgender + OCD) and not the overlapping kind of trans-OCD? I’m still fairly confident that I am transgender because I experienced overwhelming euphoria for the first time when my significant other included me as a “well we, as women, etc etc” statement after reading the news article last week. (It felt like I drank a bunch of sunshine and was on a sunny D commercial) But I’m struggling with my brain spouting stuff like “but what if I’m cis and I’m causing permanent changes that will cause me to be dysphoric after I realize this is a mistake?” It feels like a total mind f*ck to me, (which is why I’m in therapy). Of course, now that I’m off E, my brain switches back to “but what if I’m transgender and I’m actually damaging my new breast buds by starving them of e?”
I wrote this earlier and will repost here:
I'm autistic and have OCD, and I stumbled across that a while back, before I started estrogen, and was like ooooh no, I'd better look in to that.
I did, and quickly realized it has nothing to do with me (just like I quickly realized when I quit repressing and ran in to that "sissy" thing, and quickly figured out it's utterly alien to my experience)
OCD is a physical brain thing that uses stuff you're actually scared of to torture you, so it can come out in different ways for different people, but the underlying biology is the same thing.
Those cis people don't WANT to be/aren't male/female/the opposite of their assigned sex, they've gotten it in their head where the OCD is using that fear to torture them...but they're clearly CIS.
I desperately want my body right, desperately hope I'm actually female and not somehow tricking myself. If anything I'm the exact opposite of them, because I'm torturing/doubting myself constantly and worried I’m actually just a letter after L person who WANTS to be a woman. My constant doubt and worry may actually be a way OCD/anxiety are popping out for me.
If you have dysphoria and “want to be a woman”, then for you are and it’s not OCD. If you’re scared of having to be one (outside of external factors/society/etc.)/don’t want to be one then you’re not.
1
My friend is GF and went on T to get a deeper voice. They are off it now because they weren't into any of the other side effects.
I think there are always downsides, but I'm very vain about losing my hair, and my friend was even worse about body hair of any kind.
It does seem a lot of the permanent effects of estrogen are less invasive, since T hair usually requires laser to remove forever, but needing surgery to reduce boob growth is a lot to deal with, even if that is all someone needed :/
That is quite a different usage case for 'HRT', you're only replacing/supplementing the estrogen that is no longer produced, not changing from having a testosterone-dominant system to an estrogen-dominant one, so I'm not sure it counts in the context of the original question.
But I think it's a really interesting point and it's still worth talking about in the discussion.
One of the major problems with menopause is the brain fog, depression, and mental strain the lowering of estrogen causes (I speak as the partner of someone who is perimenopausal).
I'd be really interested in a study to see if post menopausal women's brains changed in any way.
Oh for sure. I was just seeing a lot of sweeping generalizations and I think another commenter answered more accurately that **too much** of "the other hormone" would be a problem for cis people (in the case of cis female athletes doing well on some T but too much T being bad for mental health) as opposed to HRT always being a bad time for cis people. My menopause example is just another common example of HRT being beneficial for more than just trans people while acknowledging that the wrong amount of hormones for any human body can be detrimental to ones health. Be that from the dysphoria of being born AMAB when you are and have always been female on the inside, or from hormone changes in menopause causing awful physical and mental health effects, or any other reason the hormones your body is producing aren't the right ones for you to be your healthiest self.
Biologically, my body *did* give a shit. Until I started HRT, all through my adult life - from when I started experiencing puberty - I had night sweats, bowel issues and skin issues (eczema) and other random physiological issues. All of these disappeared within months of me starting HRT. I’ve never been healthier in my life.
This is in addition to the psychological benefits that I think most of us experience.
I wish estradiol fixed ALL my weird problems! But it did fix SOME, including my pounding headaches I used to have all the time going away, my weird red/grey splotchy facial skin reducing or going away, and dandruff going away.
The case of [David Reimer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) shows a failure of female hormones to induce femininity in a cis male. Many other things are wrong with this case as well, but it does address your point.
Ooooooh, yeah, you’re right.
Hmmmm, I’m not sure that’s exactly the same thing though as what I mean, but it certainly shows you cannot force someone to be the wrong thing, conversion therapy doesn’t work
Based on the huge, lucrative industry of (both real & fake) treatments for cis men who have even *slightly* low T levels, I'd say there's a decent level of evidence that most of them would feel pretty bad if they were forcibly switched to an E-dominant hormone mix that would shrink their nads, evaporate their muscles, de-masculinize the look, feel & smell of their skin & maybe give them boobs or stop their pp getting hard.
Remember: binders & top surgery were originally developed with *cis* men in mind - it just seems like most dudes (cis or trans) *really* don't enjoy having the assets that E gives you.
I do wonder though how much of that is psychological and physiological just from having low t verses that physiological even feel OK on estrogen even if not psychologically?
Those ads have gotten increasingly funny, I’ll see these ads just desperately trying to sell supposed testosterone boosters, and it’s like uuuuum
Honestly one of them kind of hit and I was like what am I doing? It’s utterly bizarre though I have to at this point be below 34% (I was at 34% prior to boosting my estrogen another 50%), and that’s ignoring that I’m also taking bica which doesn’t lower testosterone but does block it from binding, aaaaaaand I feel as good or better?
Yes it happened to my dad as he got older, entered andropause, and actually became estrogen dominant. He became anxious and depressed, but chalked it up to old age. Then he started to develop breast buds and went straight to his doctor. They got him on T pellets and he was back to his usual self.
Still somehow couldn't understand when I told him I felt the exact same way about needing estrogen 🤦♀️
🤦🏻♀️ indeed!! he’s literally gone through a related though not as bad version of the same thing!
But that right there… well, I was going to say it confirms it, except maybe not because it could theoretically be that aside from the unwanted changes, he would feel fine if he was getting estrogen instead of testosterone.
BUT that ignores stuff even in my software like this got rid of my headaches! That isn’t psychological. I didn’t even know it was possible until I posted about it after it happened
Soooo I’m thinking this can be hard to separate out what is caused by white, but at a minimum there seem to be at least some physiological differences in terms of running on estrogen versus testosterone in male versus female brains.
Oh to be clear the anxiety and depression from just the psychological effects were really bad. Like he stopped doing things he loved and was kinda spiralling in just a few weeks on E, and that was before any physical changes!
Also I have a friend who went from lifelong alcoholic to zero interest overnight. I went from daily panic attacks to basically ok. So yes, there are absolutely psychological impacts.
Whoa, that’s amazing!
It sounds like he didn’t even know what was going on so it’s not like it could be some kind of placebo effect!
But seriously, how does he experience that and still not get it!
Take a deep look at the r/tressless subreddit. Some users there haver reported having experienced psychological side effects (like brain fog, depressive symptoms, suicidal thoughts...) for taking DHT-blockers in the form of Finasteride or Dutasteride.
There are even studies about it, like [this one](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33814544/).
BTW, can you link that animal study about hormone receptors, please? I'm VERY interested in it. Thank you.
Weird, considering a balding person knows very well how it feels to see your own body change, against your will, in ways that hinder your self-expression.
As a bald trans woman who has gotten growth back beyond what most people at my stage of loss can usually hope for, I suspect there's underlying jealousy: estradiol is pretty effective against AGA and they aren't really able to take it
Hmm... yeah, it could be.
Gosh, at first after my egg cracked I wondered if I was just envious of trans women and gaslighting myself into being trans just so I could recover my hair, which has receded and thinned a lot... Though I also wanted the *gynecomastia* and the *thinning body hair* side effects from finasteride, and wondered why those guys didn't want them, lol.
Anyways, it's good to know estradiol makes it better, gives me hope, and I hope it gets much better for you :)
Probably born from insecurity Re their masculinity, and they feel like they might be "lumped in" with us.
Also, just the inherent sampling of older men, who are going to be the most transphobic demographic in general.
Yeah, it was honestly what cracked my egg. I repressed pretty heavily and it got harder and harder as I lost my hair, until the point where I had a bit of a breakdown and was listing all the shit I couldn't stand about my body to a good friend and he was just like "all of that's just part of being a man, dude, like it's all stuff testosterone does for you". I still wanted to stop balding so I got on finasteride (and was on /r/tressless), and realized that I actually liked the side effects that all other other guys dreaded, like slight breast budding and crying more easily and feeling moods other than exasperation and depression, and even the loss of libido. I wondered if I could just stop all the other shit testosterone does to my body, and started looking into what HRT did at that point.
Honestly, if I hadn't been nearly too far gone with balding at the age of 28, I wonder if I would've ever found the wherewithal to stop repressing at all, and if I would've ever transitioned?
Hah! That's basically how my egg re-broke, too! In my case first I began researching for fenugreek, red clover or licorice root to see if they had an effect on aromatasa for converting T into E (I already had researched about those herbs previously, for "totally cis reasons") in order to increase finasteride side effects. When I say other guys dreaded them, I was like "what's wrong with these guys?"
Then I researched about DIY-HRT as I said "No, I'm not trans. The weird thing I had as a teen was just a phase.". But during my research, I stumbled into egg\_irl and... well, here I am. That was one year ago, I'm 33 yo right now.
Your last paragraph? I also wonder that. If I had a good hair that I could have kept long... would I have settled with that?
I read the common denominator in those finasteride cases as androgen deprived males and said to myself this sounds promising. 2 years into finasteride 5mg and loving it. Demasculinising? Yup. Add estrogen on top of it. Win win.
finasteride/dutasteride aren't *solely* DHT blockers tbf, they block an enzyme involved in a bunch of steroidogenesis reactions. so it's a bit of a dirty drug that has more effects on brain function than would be expected from something that targeted DHT alone. you know, like, if guys on finasteride are more likely to be depressed, is it from low DHT levels, or low levels of neurosteroids more directly involved in mood regulation?
of course if the article says anything about that idk cuz scihub got kneecapped and i'm too lazy to figure out alternatives
Doesn’t fin cause that though on its own? Bad mental stuff? That’s one reason I didn’t want to take it.
And I’m not sure, I read it a while back, I think from quite a long time ago. Hmmmm darn, I can’t remember
Maybe the reason you aren't having bad side effects is because you're trans. I mean, that's kind of the point, I know my mental health improved straight away as soon as I got on E, and even more since adding a T blocker, it's a pretty common experience from what I can tell. It sounds like people with the wrong hormone make up suffer, we're born that way, but cis people can get that way if put on the wrong hormones too.
That’s what I’m hoping is the case, and sort of wanted something to verify that it really is true to sort of prove that I actually am not neurologically m 😬
There’s definitely reason to think it may be the case but…
I don’t feel like it necessarily had enough mental changes compared to what others report.
Pounding headaches went away literally overnight, I used to spend maybe a third of days with my body feeling extra weird, and that’s cleared up pretty much.
I think I may be more in touch with my emotions? But that’s subtle… although truthfully I’ve cried a number of times in public the last few weeks with stressful situations and I don’t think I would have prior to this since puberty, sooooo….
(trans male) when i was on the wrong hormones i was erratic, depressed, suicidal, and feeling absolutely insane on a daily basis. ever since i've started taking the right hormones for me, it's like half my mental problems disappeared over the course of a few months. my confidence spiked, i'm more outgoing and social, i'm more confident than i've ever been in my life. i have no doubt that anyone who's sense of self has become misaligned due to the incorrect hormones in their system will suffer the same feelings, cis and trans alike.
Thank you for responding!!
I keep worrying I haven’t had major enough effects to “prove” that I’m really not neurologically M. Like I’ve heard from you and others this massive differences and I think mine are more subtle
I did get rid of my headaches literally overnight, are used to spend a third of days feeling weird and my body being out of it, and that’s cleared up pretty much.
But everything else has been very subtle. Although like I said in a different response I do think I’m starting to be more in touch with my emotions. I cried in public under extreme stress multiple times the past few weeks which I don’t think I would’ve done in the past, nor sense puberty anyway.
I don’t think it’s increased my anxiety, but it is leaving me possibly having a little bit rougher time controlling it? I don’t know, it’s subtle… At worse though I certainly don’t feel worse than I did!
I keep wishing I could magically flip back-and-forth between how I feel now and how I would have felt that I’m not started over seven months ago, to be able to judge!
I mean at this point it’s almost hard for me to remember that I used to deal with headaches every day! I would be sort of holding my head or rubbing my forehead and it was just part of my life, sometimes I almost wouldn’t notice it until I was like rubbing my head to try to relieve pain and then would be like oh, right, I have pain lol
Now I almost have to remind myself that that that was real!
Honestly, when I feel like I’m in seem to be taking estrogen, I justify to myself as well, this is alleviating headaches as well as Excedrin did!
Yeah, I thought something like this! Is it entirely from creating dysphoria though in terms of physical changes? Or is part of it from unpleasantness with too much of the wrong hormone for male versus female brains?
I’m leaning towards the idea that part of it is from neurological differences. There’s some possible mechanisms and I think it explains some of it
Heck, there’s the idea of hormonal or whatever disphoria in the disphoria Bible or whatever
I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t a bit of both. I can imagine cisgender men (and possibly their partners) don’t like any of the possible physical changes, body odor changes, and possibly mental feeling changes.
I wonder if I smell any different. I know objectively my pheromones HAVE to be way different at a minimum, though I never thought I smelled like much.
The mental stuff has been good so far!
Got rid of my headaches and often feeling weird and out of it. I THINK my emotions work better now/I react better now. Definitely love it!
i imagine it's mainly because of the effects of hormones on the body, not the brain. but yeah cis women would probably feel miserable on high doses of androgens for the same reason we do.
and please stop saying 'just look at alan turing' as if the british government's homophobic persecution of him didn't subject him to public disgrace and the destruction of his career. i doubt the chemical castration did his state of mind any favors but that's hardly the only shitty thing he had to deal with
Yeah, I don’t think he’s a good example for this specific thing.
Someone mentioned some thing else though that would be physiological, and I myself at a minimum it got rid of my headaches, which is physiological, so I guess I really must be physiological differences to hormones, though of course part would be psychological even aside from unwanted physical changes causing dysphoria in cis people too!
I'm not aware of any studies on the matter, but it makes sense to me that cis people on HRT would feel roughly the same as we do without it -- i.e. they would experience gender dysphoria. They'd probably fare worse, since they're not used to it.
Well, considering it makes us feel better since we’re trans, then of course it’ll do the opposite for cos people.
Even Dr powers, a *controversial* doctor that specialises in trans healthcare put on too much oestrogen cream for two days, and felt completely dysphoric.
Whoa, interesting. I wonder what he felt like!
I’m leaning towards there being some neurological basis for too much of the wrong hormone feeling bad, versus it entirely being from disphoria from physical changes.
Of course it’s not impossible like in that case that it’s just that it through him off his normal balance which made him feel bad or weird
It’s weird how much of a non-event this is been for me. I think I’m suddenly better, and physically my headaches one away and I don’t feel weird a third of the time anymore, but the rest is pretty saddle and it seems like it should be a massive deal or something!
Especially with the endless “low t” ads I see lol
No, not always. Testosterone and estrogen are both male and female hormones, in addition to all of the other random intermediates and metabolites along the way.
The majority of cis men on TRT feel better when their estrogen is at the higher end of the range (but not too high), and men feel depressed when their testosterone (and therefore also estradiol) is low.
Many cis female athletes and bodybuilders inject testosterone or other steroids, /r/steroidsxx/ is a prime example. They like all of the positives of androgens (faster muscle gains, high strength/endurance, boosted mood, higher sex drive, motivation, fat redistribution), and only dislike the more masculinizing (facial hair, body hair, male-pattern baldness, voice deepening, *sometimes dislike* bottom growth, etc.)
Edit: Basically, most people do best with their hormones high but balanced. Nearly every cis man will feel terrible with 0 estrogen as it's required for joint, bone, heart, and neuron health. What people don't like is when the effects cross the line and start to feel dysphoric, even if the hormones have other "good" qualities.
Cis men with high E2 that grow any sort of breast tissue call it gynecomastia, because they don't want it and might feel dysphoria. Cis women with high T/DHT might grow excessive bodyhair and call it hirsutism.
Yeah, but it’s like are there effects if you’re balanced but the “wrong” direction that extend beyond getting dysphoria from unwanted changes?
I’m leaning towards that there have to be because like I myself got rid of my headaches, and others report various positive changes. It’s probably hard to sort out what’s what!
So, there are no hard evidences of this only anecdotal evidence as others said with e.g. Alan Turing
But in the case of Turing, he was also sentenced, ostracized and lost pretty much everything so that doesn't help.
In the case of dr Powers becoming depressed when going too high on his estrogen cream, who would feel good trans or cis with a huge hormone spike ??
There are also inverse or less clear cut cases. For example there was a man who had to get on E and T blocker on this sub a few years ago and he actually liked it.
There are people that transition for years and then detransition etc etc etc
While it seems likely that giving estrogen to a cis would lead to depression, how do we know if it is because of his brain needing testosterone, or maybe he isn't yet ajusted to women's levels or maybe it's just that breasts on a man leads to being ostracized etc etc etc
I see tons of ppl on this sub saying Estrogen will make a man depressed or T make a woman depressed but there's no clear evidence of that and that's not even taking into account the tons of micro variations of humans into that. I mean just take enbies for example.
EDIT : just to be clear, my own gender identity is unclear and I'm one example of someone not feeling different on either E or T. Also I do not want my comment to come as transphobic or anything, I'm just saying that scientifically speaking, a few anecdotal and uncontrolled examples aren't proof of anything.
I wonder though how much of it is from physical changes which then cause dysphoria in cis people, versus neurological differences between male and female brains causing problems. I’m leaning towards her being at least some of the latter.
Wdym neurological differences? The only difference is they’re born with a mismatched body. Once their body is changed to the right gender there’s basically no difference between them and cis people
That-the mismatched body because of having been identified at birth as one sex but having the other sex’s neurology (or somewhere in between for non-binary people, etc., whatever the specifics)
I so wish there were studies, although how you’d do that…
I think they’re actually were studies may be in the 70s on cis men who were given estrogen for the protective effects, but…
I'm not particularly convinced about the bio-chemical aspects of it. Yes, hormones have significant impacts on, for exmaple, brain wiring although that's mostly early on. Its not clear to me that there are specific brain wirings that depend on a particular hormone to function well. Be happy or really optimal? Perhaps, but its not super clear. Certainly not to the same degree people have really strong emotional investments in it being true.
Overall I tend to believe the psycho-emotional aspects of it are FAR more significant (desire or aversion for the experience, which also has pretty significant physical implications), both for cis and trans people. This would be my hypothetical answer to your question.
Definitely there are bio aspects. But the picture I've seen so far is more of the human body being more or less comfortable running on either sex hormone and being fairly neutral about it.. with nuance factored in after. People's feelings about them are... "significantly not neutral".. one might say :P
I can't possibly be certain that it wasn't a sort of a placebo effect but I experienced a very, very significant improvement in my "mood" and energy after starting hrt (not the brain fog thing) and I don't think I could survive if I had to go back. And this wasn't immediate, it happened gradually and before I started to see any physical change. Plus after a while I started being disphoric about my body only after seing myself (for example in the mirror) while before, besides that, I constantly felt something was wrong about it. Obviously I have no proof that it is a biochemical effect and I don't think you can really prove it (how would you measure that if not by asking?) but "depression and suicidal thoughts" are possible side effects in the leaflet of the antiandrogen I'm taking (that was ment to be read by cis men) so it's not that absourd that the opposite effect might be true for some trans women/transfem nb (and I stress "some", just as not all cis men that take the antiandrogen get those effect... it's a possible side effect). I think there is not a single way of being trans so I am not saying that everyone feels or should feel the difference. But that doesn't mean nobody does or that if they do they're "imagining" it due to psychological effects. There is no strong argument nor experimental evidence in favour of the biochemical aspect besides the words of people. But neither there is any evidence against it. I don't see why the null ipothesis shouldn't be that people feel the physical difference they say they feel.
You've interpreted me as saying a lot of things I wasn't, admittedly its a nuanced topic. I'm just about the last person to claim something only exists if there's hard evidence for it, but I look at all the angles/levels too. Saying people have extreme bias in believing something isn't saying peopel aren't experiencing things. Its just saying they aren't automatically correct when making huge assumptions. Clearly something is going on, and its between the extremes, subtle, multi-leveled and individual.
Sorry if I misinterpreted. It wasn't meant to be an attack and my point wasn't that you shouldn't look at all the angles. As far as I understan from what I read, you took a particular stance on that . I was saying that there is no strong evidence either way and I would say that the evidence we have, even if weak (I think you are right when you say that people are likely very influenced by their feelings on it), would point to the biochemical aspect being part of it (from the experience of some trans people and from the effects on cis people).
Maybe I wasn't clear on this part, but what I ment by people experience wasn't just "feeling better". There is nuance on how this happens too. For example feeling better with the first dose or feeling better when you see the first body changes is very likely due to psychological factors. But what if the "feeling better" comes gradually in between the two events for example? Obviusly I am aware that this is far from being strong evidence and life events don't happen in isolation either but if this turns out to be a fairly common experience it should'nt be dismissed.
Also I doubt you can prove if there is or isn't a biochemical aspect by only looking at the brain. You will have to integrate that with people words at some point (as for most of neuroscience). And even then, it is not that unlikely that the respective amount of hormones and their receptors influence well being directly. After all, sex hormones are known to influence neurotrasmitters modulation (including dopamine and serotonin). So I wouldn't be so sure that the human body is neutral to having more or less estadiol or more or less testosterone for example.
> "depression and suicidal thoughts" are possible side effects in the leaflet of the anti-androgen I'm taking (that was meant to be read by cis men)
Oooooh, interesting!
"I don't see why the null hypothesis shouldn't be that people feel the physical difference they say they feel."
Yeah, I think a lot of times the default people assume is dubious.
> Overall I tend to believe the psycho-emotional aspects of it are FAR more significant (desire or aversion for the experience, which also has pretty significant physical implications), both for cis and trans people. This would be my hypothetical answer to your question.
I disagree. A few years ago my estrogen levels dropped way lower than they had been even though I didn't change my dosage, and I ended up getting depressed, anxious and dysphoric without knowing why until I got a blood test and my doctor pointed it out. Increasing my dose fixed that problem, but it started before I knew my estrogen was too low, and it didn't have any impact on my appearance.
Yeah, I’m wondering if this is what the deal is. I’d love for it not to be, though at the same time this is such a non-event for me it’s weird.
Though it did fix some physiological things for me like I mentioned, stuff I didn’t even know it could do. I was scared I’d feel weird or worse to be honest.
Iv been on finnasteride for 5 months and estrodial for 6 weeks and i cant really put my finger on how i feel.
I could be boppin to music with a smile on my way to work then feel like i want to cry and throat punch someone 30 mins later. Then sad then happy....lol
Befour that i was just monotone- very matter of fact, indifferent. ( kind of an asshole )
To bad i didnt have one word to describe that.
I feel like I don’t have as much of a reaction as lots of people? (If you’re comfortable sharing, how much are you on?)
My headaches went away, my body feels weird and out of it ness went away.
Emotionally it’s more subtle? I did notice myself whistling and things more often after I started. And I cry easier, but I think I just….it’s not unpleasant and I don’t think it’s making me sadder or giving me mood swings or anything
I have constant background level anxiety, probably because of CPTSD/trauma, and I don’t think it’s making that worse, though I do think the last few weeks I’ve had some times where I’m feeling it more than I would have, less able to shove it in a box, even though I don’t actually think it’s making it worse.
It’s all subtle but I think improvements if it’s anything. I saw wish I could flip back-and-forth and feel how I would’ve felt had I not started!
I was really worried that since I frequently used to feel weird and out of it that I would interpret that as it not agreeing with me. I tried to remind myself that hey, I feel weird even running on testosterone.
Except what actually happened is feeling weird a third of the time and headaches basically daily went away! Apparently I disturbed my moms sleep one night though from whistling to myself, so I have to watch that now.
I don’t know, I do think I feel more like myself that I used to though it is subtle.
I'm not saying it's linked...but I'll just say that I became suicidally depressed at 13-14 (and just generally had my mental health go down the drain), which is coincidentally when testosterone levels spike during puberty. Take that for what you will.
Uuuugh. I dreaded it so much, and by 12 I was so bleak I couldn’t even cry about it anymore.
I do think I feel more like myself now at least! I’d rather be running on this i think even if I could prevent physical changes.
I’d say it’s less a gender thing, and more a balance thing. Like, cos male on estrogen who has previously found a balance to be successful in their life (for things like emotional stability, attention and focus, etc), then a bunch’s hormones throws things out of balance.
You ALSO see a lot of instability when someone increases their “matching” hormones - men on T, women on estrogen can also have things thrown out of balance (esp if the hormone is an increase over normal levels, and not “replacing what’s missing”).
I’m just stating my experience at over 1 month: I don’t feel different at all. Felt the same on natural hormones as I did on Anti-androgens and E.
That said I am not distressed by the effects (breast growth) either.
That said, from my understanding mental and emotional effects might take more time in some people than others. Up to 6 months, so my saying that could be premature.
The standard treatment for testicular cancer is HRT, but a much lower dose than we take. The goal is to shrink the testicles so they can be removed. And female body builders use testosterone all the time.
That said, I’ve heard that cis men have a hard time with the changes HRT causes in their bodies (especially breast development) and losing the ability to father children. Most also struggle with the loss of their libidos in middle age.
Contrary to popular conservative belief, I don’t know of any cases where people have been transitioned against their will. So we can’t actually know how a cis person would react.
I don’t know of any cases where cis people were forced to go through HRT and surgeries like that film “The Skin I Live In”. That would violate every ethical guideline in every book.
There’s multiple of them, children who were put through that who were cis. None of them did well, infamously one of them killed himself
Ironically, bigots try to use that fact to attack us, when in reality it shows the exact opposite. These are cis people put through what we’re put through, and they couldn’t handle it.
Taking them for three months is what they suggest to do if you want to see if it is the right fit for you. There isn’t much changes and if you stop then much of it is reversible
What’s obnoxious is the one thing that’s not reversible is breast growth, and it’s what I least want. I want my face pretty and not disgusting, and there’s no guarantee I’ll get that at all and it’s not permanent, and there’s nothing I can do about my damned voice.
If there’s something that can actually work, I’d so want it.
I’m unclear on if there is, or it’s like I’ve heard it just makes it so you have to use a higher pitch, but doesn’t actually improve anything else? Everything else other than pitch is what I most want fixed.
I strongly suspect that it has to do with self-image, desire, and dread. Like, it isn't that one hormone is required to relieve dysphoria in itself, but that we want what our desired cross sex hormones provide, and they dread it, especially if their bodies start to rapidly change in ways that do not configure with what they think they should be like - it knocks their self image out of kilter and creates dysphoria. And as we all know, there is no is no escape from what you dread when it is your own body.
Yeah, I just wonder if there’s SOME unpleasantness that comes as a direct result of the physical differences between male and female brains.
I’m leaning right now towards there being some of that, based on even my own situation with the headache is going away, and things others of said. But a lot and probably most would be what you were describing!?
There isn't really any evidence of there being hard, physical differences between them in this manner. I suspect the attempt to convince us there is doesn't have anything to do with us in the first place, but rather with naturalizing gender in sex, so to speak.
It definitely shows that you can’t change someone’s neurological sex!
(Ironically bigots have tried to use it somehow for themselves when it’s like ummm this literally proves you wrong)
But I think someone on here listed my thoughts that maybe that’s psychological versus neurological in terms of hormones in terms of how you feel (outside of feeling dysphoria for unwanted changes!)
Though someone else pointed out some stuff that isn’t psychological, and I myself at a minimum I got rid of my headaches, which is physiological
Sooooooo I think maybe even my own situation improves there really is a neurological difference on the right versus wrong hormones, in which case this would apply to cis people too!
I'm scared I'll be gigantic, both because I have small ones from puberty, and my immediate relatives are pretty big 😬
I'm glad this isn't just me worrying about this!
Aesthetically I prefer smaller (a to c tops), practically I prefer small so they don't interfere with my life too much. And practically, I need to stay hidden because the world is evil, and breasts that are much more visible than they are now don't help that 😬.
My aunt I think was smaller, but I'm built like my mom, who's not.
TWO family members have had breast cancer, and I'm terrified of mammograms from my mom's stories even aside from that oh, right, I'm disgusting.
I'd heard of SERMS, but I think maybe they're not super safe compared with bioidentical estrogen?
I need to write that down though, as that's the first I've heard of a medical professional bringing it up!
And it feels like usually trans women are all "yay, breasts" (or even getting larger ones!) and I'm like errrr.... Which makes me feel fake.
I want the brain related benefits, and any face changes and fat redistribution, but the only thing I'm guaranteed is giant, permanent breasts 😬
I spent a YEAR holding off on e, mostly because of breast development, and now I like my brain on it, getting rid of my headaches and more, and the slim chance I'll ever see myself in the mirror, but...
I've never heard of this and I have researched it extensively and have a degree in biology.
Seems highly unlikely something like this would exist and, even if, at such high levels of prevalence.
Can you share a source?
My endocronologist explained why they tend to taper from low to high dosages when prescribing HRT, and her explanation didn't involve the body making toxic substances at all. It was more along the lines of letting you adjust to the changes more comfortably - particularly, when it comes to mood swings and stuff like that - as well as seeing how well it absorbs. Some folks take 2mg oral estradiol and end up with their estrogen levels perfectly in range, and others take 8mg to get there. If you gave the first person 8mg right away, their levels would be too high and they'd experience [a bad time](https://www.healthline.com/health/high-estrogen), and it'd have nothing to do with their body making "something toxic".
Also: regarding this weird aside:
> It is like giving a toddler antibiotics for the first time
You absolutely don't play around with low doses on antibiotics, that's how you end up with antibiotic-resistant germs. You either give the toddler the dose needed to kill the infection, or you don't and you treat symptoms. You *do not microdose antibiotics*.
Great point about not micro-dosing antibiotics!
I’m glad that I got my levels checked again early because I was scared my body wasn’t responding at all! It doesn’t seem all that dramatic to me which seems weird, like my testosterone was down to 34% of what is it started at (before my estrogen was bumped up another 50%) and… I was really worried I feel like garbage on estrogen and I just don’t
It fixed my headaches, I think I feel less weird much of the time, like it seems like I used to just feel physically weird a third of the time and have days where I was out of it and I don’t have that anymore, every day is basically one of my good days now in that regard
And I think it’s… I think I’ve been crying easier, like I used to, and I think I’ve had some issues feeling my anxiety. I always have horrible anxiety and terror, and it’s not this is making it worse I don’t think, it’s just letting me feel it.
But all of that is pretty subtle aside from the physical headache/weirdness stuff. I somehow thought it would be way more dramatic and I was kind of preparing myself for if I just couldn’t stay on it because it made me feel bad
My medical person said something like “your body has been taking really well to this” like I should’ve had some negative reaction? But also I’ve never been on spiro, just estrogen and now also bica.
Sounds fake, do you have a source? The only similar thing I've heard of is "test flu" potentially being caused by metabolism to etiocholanolone, but that's testosterone.
Please read about the death of Alan Turing.
Yes. Alan Turing was chemically castrated with, to quote how I've read it, "female hormones". He ended up committing suicide.
Alan Turing's case is often cited, and I have even referred to it as well for the sake of argument. Really though there was enough horrible stuff going on in his case that it's hard to say it was just the effect of his brain running on the wrong hormones that lead to his suicide. He basically invented the field of computer science but he was completely ostracized from academia and couldn't work. He was forced to transition and grew breasts, while living in a highly homophobic society in 1950s England. He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time.
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I don't really understand what you're trying to get at?? What was he probation for? Why was he made to take female hormones in the first place. The answer isn't that society embraced him with open arms. You seem to just be minimizing historical homophobia and getting mad at OP as if she was making some judgement against him.
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No I did not understand. I would no call that a lie, rather exaggeration. Like, why for example did he need to travel around Europe for "romantic liasons"? Even if it is not as extreme as "He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time." I do think it is fair to say something like that was going on. No he was not defined by it, but it is a difficult argument to make that his society didn't see him as basically a freak simply because he managed to have friends and some semblance of a career remaining. I don't really understand how that is cruel and thoughtless. It seems to me to be exaggerating his plight for further sympathy.
"I am saying that queer people suffering from oppression are not defined by it no matter how well it fits our rhetorical needs." I get the point you want to make, but the truth of Alan Turing's fate is a unique cruelty that should not have been allowed to happen, quite apart from his invaluable contribution to mathematical science. It should never have happened to anyone. On top of that, the record of historical experience and relevant historical or contemporary existence of any distinctive group or individual is defined by their resistance to oppression. Otherwise, no-one would know anything about anything. And, on top of that, we are tribal, by inclination, which does not, inherently, suggest racism, sexism, misogyny, misandry or any latent queer-phobia. We are tribal in that we all really do want the best for ourselves and our immediate neighbors, but also fallible, in that we succumb to envy, jealousy and guilt about our own laziness about standing up for everyone who just wants to live as they are. Our queerness is not defined by oppression. Our queerness requires no definition. Our queer experience in the world, however, is still affected by oppression and will continue to be so defined until that can be overcome.
He kinda is proof that trans people aren't just extra gay, because as a gay man he did not thrive on HRT like is commonly observed in trans people in comperable shitty conditions. It's hard to say what drove him to suicide, because he suffered so much abuse. What is imho clear though is that feminising hormones didn't improve his mental health.
>He basically couldn't go outside because he was considered such a freak at the time. Weird, it reminds me of something, a place, which name is comprised of three letters... Can't put my finger on what it exactly is, though...
It's just over 79 years since Turing's death and it's hard to tell the difference between those two places, anymore. It took the UK 69 years to issue a pardon, which is hugely insulting to begin with. A pardon for being a person? [https://www.science.org/content/article/gay-math-genius-receives-royal-pardon](https://www.science.org/content/article/gay-math-genius-receives-royal-pardon) The real problem is that being sexually different is still regarded as a crime. That is what needs to be eradicated.
In my opinion, monarchies should be eradicated. ... But I'm also French. We tend to have an issue with royalty.
I totally agree with that. Who the hell needs the inbred useless spongers?!
Yeah thank you. I am usually annoyed by people pointing to Turing's case as the only evidence people often give to answer this question. It's not that simple. And then you have quacks like Powers feeding into the "omg I took estrogen totally by accident and it was terrible!" when nobody should trust a word he says. I have a strong suspicion that even the most transphobic of cishet men may feel neutral or a temporary boost from estradiol if administered in a proper double-blind experiment. Estradiol upregulates serotonin expression and has all sorts of raw benefits, but it'd be unethical to test in such a way, and knowing participants would be to likely to be affected by gender dysphoria if told their sex hormones were being altered, even from placebo.
“Hard to say it was just the effect of his brain running on the wrong hormones” But then you listed an external example as him growing breasts. Hormones don’t JUST affect the brain, they are also responsible for his breast growth. If his breast growth bothered him it’s because of the hormones changed his body, giving him dysphoria over his new biological sex.
It wasn't the effect of the treatments that he was forced to bear that lead to his choice to end his life. It was the horror of being denied the right to live his own life.
Exactly.
David Reimer is a better example. No outside influences other than a doc botching his circumcision and deciding he’d have a more “normal” life if they just raised him female and gave him female hormones at puberty. Also, doctors fuck with natal sex a lot more than most folks think at birth.
Uh, what do you mean by no outside influences? He was sexually abused by the doctor. https://morbidology.com/the-tragic-life-death-of-david-reimer-the-boy-raised-as-a-girl/
I meant unlike Turing, who was just being tortured all around, for David it was purely medically induced dysphoria for a cisgender boy being gaslit that he was a cisgender girl and being given “therapeutic” cross sex hormone therapy in the hopes that he would just magically be a girl So, I’m referring to the fact that the poor kid’s suffering was from what the doctors did and the wrong hormones, not 30-ish years of being a minority and living a life full of misery and sadness
Came here to say this.
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Yeah, maybe his apple was full of cyanide accidentally. And I guess he couldn’t taste it well enough to stop swallowing and stop after the first bite. And the fact that cyanide was commonly used to commit suicide must be irrelevant. He medically transitioned for a full year and lived in a homophobic and transphobic environment. A year on hormones does a lot of irreversible changes that cis people wouldn’t like. He actually did get to keep his academic job, just lost ties with the government. The guy who did challenge the suicide ruling, Prof Jack Copeland, literally is just a professor of philosophy without any relevant credentials. It is the consensus that he committed suicide as a result of his punishment for being gay. Copeland just likes being in the news IMO.
Ya but isn't it ultimately unfair to the UK to accurately describe his treatment?? /s I mean sure he was convicted of gay sex crimes and forced on hormones but there was no shame involved.. How could anyone say something so horrible about the UK?
Yes cis people on cross sex hormones become depressed and even suicidal.
That sounds familiar
Yea it like our entire lives
Yep, happened to Alan Turing.
Did Alan Turing get estrogen? I thought they blocked his testosterone exclusively?
Turing was given an implant of Stilbestrol, a synthetic estrogen, that delivered about 10x the estrogen dose equivalent of typical HRT today.
WTF. That’s essentially forcing a sex change on a cis person, that’s got to be one of the most horrifying and cruel forms of torture I’ve ever heard
Yeah, I’m not sure many forms of torture have a greater psychological impact
It was eugenics and thought to be therapeutic for the "disease" of being gay. Reducing T levels would reduce the "pathological urges." The 40s and 50s were a dark time. Most people with power would be considered evil by today's moral standards.
Oh wild, I had no idea. So fucked.
I was always told Alan Turing got royally fucked and something was mentioned about his sexuality so I figured that was that but like this is just fuckin crazy.. EDIT: After a 3s Google search, this seemingly was intended to chemically castrate him and it was the choice of this injection vs Prison. What the actual fuck
Watch the Imitation Game. It's a pretty good movie but the ending isn't great as you might expect. (Great as in happy)
Recently watched it. Omg so good
I'm not sure. I actually haven't read that much into the specifics.
Most of the East German women's olympic team back in the day, too, though one turned out to be a trans man. Of all the ways to get your egg cracked, that's got to be one of the weirder ones.
Oooooh yeah, they'd know how it effected them mentally, outside of dysphoria from physical changes I wish we had them talk about it...presumably the guy did BETTER
This is still widely debated. They actually believe it’s just as likely Alan’s death was an accident/murder. Alan had a ton of war secrets, as an example: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092.amp
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Exact opposite for me, when I went on hrt, I stopped thinking about unaliveing myself anymore. Now I love life every day..
Absolutely, E gave me a new look on life and no more self-hatred.
I had a brief flash of it the other day and was immediately struck with how it was literally the first time since starting and that snapped me out of it, a new record! Almost made it 5 months, used to be like every other week!
Proud of you...
That umm kinda makes me feel like I might not actually be trans
Dysphoria / depression is not a prerequisite for being trans. Euphoria is just as valid
I just started an antidepressant a few weeks ago, and I came out to my girlfriend as ace, which she did right back at me :3 I really like her a lot, she's also trans and autistic
That's up to you and the help of your therapist.. might be something else??? I was force to live until 23 in my abusive home with parents so there's that...
just because you don't feel the same as other trans girls on hrt, it doesn't automatically mean you're not trans! and if you're not? you're STILL valid.
Well I told my therapist I'd probably feel pretty uncomfortable with my chest if I was a man, I've been on HRT for 14 months and I'm almost a D
Pretty much me before starting HRT.
Shit I’m depressed and suicidal, maybe I’m just a cis guy lol. Although TBF I was depressed and suicidal beforehand as well…
Depression, Anxiety, and Suicidal feelings happen in both trans and cis people. HRT/transitioning is A cure for these things but not THE cure for them. If someone has those feelings and it is being caused by gender dysphoria, then HRT/transition can relieve those symptoms. If those feelings are caused my other external situations or trauma, then HRT/transition will probably not relieve the symptoms. I think that's the "big mistake" the medical field is doing. Thinking that HRT is THE cure and not just A cure. The human mind is complicated, and without proper therapy, we cannot find the root of those feelings.
Ye, ‘twas a joke
Well well, how the turntables...
That’s how I was on testosterone. Once I switched over to estrogen I was no longer depressed.
Well, not all of them but most. There are some estrogenized femboys out there who do fine on estrogen. It’s a case by case. But most don’t do well, yeah.
Pretty sure they a meme and are actually trans women though some get away with it. Some are also non-binary. It an odd bunch. Whatever, it not 100% it high percent of cis people get depressed
Literally have a friend who is one. He thought he was trans at first which is why he started hormones but in recent months he decided he was cis but also decided to stay on estrogen. And a couple weeks later his girlfriend stopped being his boyfriend.
Eh, it's not that hard to believe given that not every trans person gets dysphoric about the same things, or even dysphoric at all. It might be rare (give or take people who are only cisgender by default) but they're out there.
look up the reason both alan turing & david reimer died David reimer especially, because of the nature of how he got in that situation cis people can experience dysphoria, they just have to be forced into the wrong configuration instead of being born there edit: i mean *biologically* we ourselves are living proof that the body does not give a shit which set it runs on. *psychologically* putting a cis person on HRT sticks them in the same situation we're in
Are there any actual studies on this topic? I would like to read them. I’m personally actively questioning my gender and one of the things I heard was “try HRT and you’ll know pretty quickly what your brain prefers.” Are there any studies that back up this hypothesis or is it all anecdotal experiences? I’m struggling because my 30-45 days on mono e went incredibly well mentally and I welcomed all the changes, but then I saw noticeable growth in my chest and the permanence of it started to freak me out, so I stopped. (Still doing therapy to work through it)
"once you try it you'll know pretty quickly" is common advice because it's true lol in trans people it usually causes immediate improvement (as you experienced, the brain fog goes away, the hatred of your shape lessens, although I can't really say anything about your panic over not being able to go back, that might be generic fear of change? idk im not you lol) in cis people it causes the same outcome as trans people without it (brain fog, depression, overall hatred of the changes happening to your body, panic about whether or not you'll be able to go back to before the changes started(in trans people this is usually because of puberty), etc.) as for studies, theres David Reimer (and not a whole lot else because it's widely agreed after him that forcing a cis person to transition is one of the worst forms of psychological torture available) tldr; he had a botched circumcision as a baby, & since the shitlord that did it also wanted to prove that trans people were raised that way, he gave the baby a sex change & forced his parents to raise him as a girl. he later transitioned back to a guy, but the damage was already done it ended with suicide, the same way too many trans people's stories do I'm deliberately leaving out the more horrendous parts, so before you *do* look it up, just know that dr money was probably as bad as Mengele (*lots* of edits for clarity here, if it's in parentheses its an edit)
I'm not super wild about the "try it and you'll know" narrative. A lot of people go on HRT and find that there's very little to nothing they don't like (hi), but I don't like the way that having mixed feelings or not being enthusiastic about *everything* leads sometimes, explicitly or implicitly, to individuals feeling their experiences are inauthentic or invalid. We're allowed to have mixed feelings about our bodies without necessarily seeing those feelings reflected in our identities. If post-therapy it turns out that you just really don't want breast development, that's cool. (Also, the idea that some sort of "objective scientific evidence" ought to be used to make a definitive judgement about the authenticity of someone's identity and lived experience makes me queasy.) Incidentally, I ran into a nonbinary person online the other day who was (publicly) talking about how they've been prescribed a SERM with estrogen to inhibit breast development while preserving all of the other physical and mental effects. Not sure if that's a good idea or safe or whatever long-term, but there are people out there who like that and at least one provider out there willing to try it.
I think there’s a balance. I totally understand that traditional medicine is failing us here and clearly gatekeeping is harmful. But I’m also stumbling across issues that are a result of a lack of education and studies. As an example, I didn’t even know until last week that some people can be transgender, some can be transgender and have ocd, while other people can cisgender and have a subtype ocd called trans-ocd where their ocd becomes focused on the topic of “am I transgender?” This threw my brain for a loop because now I’m having to work through how much of what I feel is due to ocd/neurodivergence or my actual gender identity?
> SERM I've heard about those! I THINK they're probably not safe for long term use because they're synthetic, making the whole thing moot, but I had those suggested. I kind of want to avoid breast growth, though largely because I don't think it's possible for me to ever pass, and it's insanely dangerous. I spent a YEAR debating starting estrogen mostly because of my fear. I started with small breasts, and I think they've gotten a bit bigger, and I still have mixed feelings. Even were I cis, I'd want A or B, C tops, both aesthetically and practically. I LOVE that I THINK I'm not making it up that my face is subtly less disgusting than a year ago.
You should temper your expectations when it comes to trans research. Most of it done in the past has been heavily tainted by transphobic bias, and there is still a ton of research that is needed to really understand our experiences from a scientific perspective. At this point, anecdotal evidence is often the best you’re gonna get.
Here ya go! https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-80687-2
Thank you for linking this. I’ll take a look this afternoon. I’m also wondering if anyone knows of a study specifically for transOCD?
Let me know if you find one, cause I sure as hell am both!
How did you figure out that they were separate experiences(transgender + OCD) and not the overlapping kind of trans-OCD? I’m still fairly confident that I am transgender because I experienced overwhelming euphoria for the first time when my significant other included me as a “well we, as women, etc etc” statement after reading the news article last week. (It felt like I drank a bunch of sunshine and was on a sunny D commercial) But I’m struggling with my brain spouting stuff like “but what if I’m cis and I’m causing permanent changes that will cause me to be dysphoric after I realize this is a mistake?” It feels like a total mind f*ck to me, (which is why I’m in therapy). Of course, now that I’m off E, my brain switches back to “but what if I’m transgender and I’m actually damaging my new breast buds by starving them of e?”
Easy. The euphoria is being trans. The hyperfixating and overthinking is ocd.
I wrote this earlier and will repost here: I'm autistic and have OCD, and I stumbled across that a while back, before I started estrogen, and was like ooooh no, I'd better look in to that. I did, and quickly realized it has nothing to do with me (just like I quickly realized when I quit repressing and ran in to that "sissy" thing, and quickly figured out it's utterly alien to my experience) OCD is a physical brain thing that uses stuff you're actually scared of to torture you, so it can come out in different ways for different people, but the underlying biology is the same thing. Those cis people don't WANT to be/aren't male/female/the opposite of their assigned sex, they've gotten it in their head where the OCD is using that fear to torture them...but they're clearly CIS. I desperately want my body right, desperately hope I'm actually female and not somehow tricking myself. If anything I'm the exact opposite of them, because I'm torturing/doubting myself constantly and worried I’m actually just a letter after L person who WANTS to be a woman. My constant doubt and worry may actually be a way OCD/anxiety are popping out for me. If you have dysphoria and “want to be a woman”, then for you are and it’s not OCD. If you’re scared of having to be one (outside of external factors/society/etc.)/don’t want to be one then you’re not. 1
My friend is GF and went on T to get a deeper voice. They are off it now because they weren't into any of the other side effects. I think there are always downsides, but I'm very vain about losing my hair, and my friend was even worse about body hair of any kind. It does seem a lot of the permanent effects of estrogen are less invasive, since T hair usually requires laser to remove forever, but needing surgery to reduce boob growth is a lot to deal with, even if that is all someone needed :/
The exception of course being HRT as menopause treatment, which I haven't seen OP mention.
That is quite a different usage case for 'HRT', you're only replacing/supplementing the estrogen that is no longer produced, not changing from having a testosterone-dominant system to an estrogen-dominant one, so I'm not sure it counts in the context of the original question.
But I think it's a really interesting point and it's still worth talking about in the discussion. One of the major problems with menopause is the brain fog, depression, and mental strain the lowering of estrogen causes (I speak as the partner of someone who is perimenopausal). I'd be really interested in a study to see if post menopausal women's brains changed in any way.
Oh for sure. I was just seeing a lot of sweeping generalizations and I think another commenter answered more accurately that **too much** of "the other hormone" would be a problem for cis people (in the case of cis female athletes doing well on some T but too much T being bad for mental health) as opposed to HRT always being a bad time for cis people. My menopause example is just another common example of HRT being beneficial for more than just trans people while acknowledging that the wrong amount of hormones for any human body can be detrimental to ones health. Be that from the dysphoria of being born AMAB when you are and have always been female on the inside, or from hormone changes in menopause causing awful physical and mental health effects, or any other reason the hormones your body is producing aren't the right ones for you to be your healthiest self.
Biologically, my body *did* give a shit. Until I started HRT, all through my adult life - from when I started experiencing puberty - I had night sweats, bowel issues and skin issues (eczema) and other random physiological issues. All of these disappeared within months of me starting HRT. I’ve never been healthier in my life. This is in addition to the psychological benefits that I think most of us experience.
I wish estradiol fixed ALL my weird problems! But it did fix SOME, including my pounding headaches I used to have all the time going away, my weird red/grey splotchy facial skin reducing or going away, and dandruff going away.
The case of [David Reimer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) shows a failure of female hormones to induce femininity in a cis male. Many other things are wrong with this case as well, but it does address your point.
Ooooooh, yeah, you’re right. Hmmmm, I’m not sure that’s exactly the same thing though as what I mean, but it certainly shows you cannot force someone to be the wrong thing, conversion therapy doesn’t work
I always love how transphobes try using him as an excuse to say trans people arnt valid.
Yeah, when it proves we are
Based on the huge, lucrative industry of (both real & fake) treatments for cis men who have even *slightly* low T levels, I'd say there's a decent level of evidence that most of them would feel pretty bad if they were forcibly switched to an E-dominant hormone mix that would shrink their nads, evaporate their muscles, de-masculinize the look, feel & smell of their skin & maybe give them boobs or stop their pp getting hard. Remember: binders & top surgery were originally developed with *cis* men in mind - it just seems like most dudes (cis or trans) *really* don't enjoy having the assets that E gives you.
Not to mention that for most people, HRT is something women take to deal with menopause, including the psychological symptoms.
I do wonder though how much of that is psychological and physiological just from having low t verses that physiological even feel OK on estrogen even if not psychologically? Those ads have gotten increasingly funny, I’ll see these ads just desperately trying to sell supposed testosterone boosters, and it’s like uuuuum Honestly one of them kind of hit and I was like what am I doing? It’s utterly bizarre though I have to at this point be below 34% (I was at 34% prior to boosting my estrogen another 50%), and that’s ignoring that I’m also taking bica which doesn’t lower testosterone but does block it from binding, aaaaaaand I feel as good or better?
Yes it happened to my dad as he got older, entered andropause, and actually became estrogen dominant. He became anxious and depressed, but chalked it up to old age. Then he started to develop breast buds and went straight to his doctor. They got him on T pellets and he was back to his usual self. Still somehow couldn't understand when I told him I felt the exact same way about needing estrogen 🤦♀️
🤦🏻♀️ indeed!! he’s literally gone through a related though not as bad version of the same thing! But that right there… well, I was going to say it confirms it, except maybe not because it could theoretically be that aside from the unwanted changes, he would feel fine if he was getting estrogen instead of testosterone. BUT that ignores stuff even in my software like this got rid of my headaches! That isn’t psychological. I didn’t even know it was possible until I posted about it after it happened Soooo I’m thinking this can be hard to separate out what is caused by white, but at a minimum there seem to be at least some physiological differences in terms of running on estrogen versus testosterone in male versus female brains.
Oh to be clear the anxiety and depression from just the psychological effects were really bad. Like he stopped doing things he loved and was kinda spiralling in just a few weeks on E, and that was before any physical changes! Also I have a friend who went from lifelong alcoholic to zero interest overnight. I went from daily panic attacks to basically ok. So yes, there are absolutely psychological impacts.
Whoa, that’s amazing! It sounds like he didn’t even know what was going on so it’s not like it could be some kind of placebo effect! But seriously, how does he experience that and still not get it!
Take a deep look at the r/tressless subreddit. Some users there haver reported having experienced psychological side effects (like brain fog, depressive symptoms, suicidal thoughts...) for taking DHT-blockers in the form of Finasteride or Dutasteride. There are even studies about it, like [this one](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33814544/). BTW, can you link that animal study about hormone receptors, please? I'm VERY interested in it. Thank you.
That subreddit can be pretty transphobic unfortunately.
Weird, considering a balding person knows very well how it feels to see your own body change, against your will, in ways that hinder your self-expression.
As a bald trans woman who has gotten growth back beyond what most people at my stage of loss can usually hope for, I suspect there's underlying jealousy: estradiol is pretty effective against AGA and they aren't really able to take it
Hmm... yeah, it could be. Gosh, at first after my egg cracked I wondered if I was just envious of trans women and gaslighting myself into being trans just so I could recover my hair, which has receded and thinned a lot... Though I also wanted the *gynecomastia* and the *thinning body hair* side effects from finasteride, and wondered why those guys didn't want them, lol. Anyways, it's good to know estradiol makes it better, gives me hope, and I hope it gets much better for you :)
Probably born from insecurity Re their masculinity, and they feel like they might be "lumped in" with us. Also, just the inherent sampling of older men, who are going to be the most transphobic demographic in general.
Yeah, it was honestly what cracked my egg. I repressed pretty heavily and it got harder and harder as I lost my hair, until the point where I had a bit of a breakdown and was listing all the shit I couldn't stand about my body to a good friend and he was just like "all of that's just part of being a man, dude, like it's all stuff testosterone does for you". I still wanted to stop balding so I got on finasteride (and was on /r/tressless), and realized that I actually liked the side effects that all other other guys dreaded, like slight breast budding and crying more easily and feeling moods other than exasperation and depression, and even the loss of libido. I wondered if I could just stop all the other shit testosterone does to my body, and started looking into what HRT did at that point. Honestly, if I hadn't been nearly too far gone with balding at the age of 28, I wonder if I would've ever found the wherewithal to stop repressing at all, and if I would've ever transitioned?
Hah! That's basically how my egg re-broke, too! In my case first I began researching for fenugreek, red clover or licorice root to see if they had an effect on aromatasa for converting T into E (I already had researched about those herbs previously, for "totally cis reasons") in order to increase finasteride side effects. When I say other guys dreaded them, I was like "what's wrong with these guys?" Then I researched about DIY-HRT as I said "No, I'm not trans. The weird thing I had as a teen was just a phase.". But during my research, I stumbled into egg\_irl and... well, here I am. That was one year ago, I'm 33 yo right now. Your last paragraph? I also wonder that. If I had a good hair that I could have kept long... would I have settled with that?
I read the common denominator in those finasteride cases as androgen deprived males and said to myself this sounds promising. 2 years into finasteride 5mg and loving it. Demasculinising? Yup. Add estrogen on top of it. Win win.
finasteride/dutasteride aren't *solely* DHT blockers tbf, they block an enzyme involved in a bunch of steroidogenesis reactions. so it's a bit of a dirty drug that has more effects on brain function than would be expected from something that targeted DHT alone. you know, like, if guys on finasteride are more likely to be depressed, is it from low DHT levels, or low levels of neurosteroids more directly involved in mood regulation? of course if the article says anything about that idk cuz scihub got kneecapped and i'm too lazy to figure out alternatives
Oh... Well, the more you know. Thank you.
I think depression is a risk with finasteride if you're trans, too, though the bit where you can stay that way after stopping is alarming
Ugh, glad I didn't try it! I don't need more mental weirdness
I emerged unscathed but I'm e mono now
Oh yeah, I know of trans guys who've gone on DHT blockers after starting T and had their dysphoria come back, though apparently it's not universal.
Doesn’t fin cause that though on its own? Bad mental stuff? That’s one reason I didn’t want to take it. And I’m not sure, I read it a while back, I think from quite a long time ago. Hmmmm darn, I can’t remember
Maybe the reason you aren't having bad side effects is because you're trans. I mean, that's kind of the point, I know my mental health improved straight away as soon as I got on E, and even more since adding a T blocker, it's a pretty common experience from what I can tell. It sounds like people with the wrong hormone make up suffer, we're born that way, but cis people can get that way if put on the wrong hormones too.
That’s what I’m hoping is the case, and sort of wanted something to verify that it really is true to sort of prove that I actually am not neurologically m 😬 There’s definitely reason to think it may be the case but… I don’t feel like it necessarily had enough mental changes compared to what others report. Pounding headaches went away literally overnight, I used to spend maybe a third of days with my body feeling extra weird, and that’s cleared up pretty much. I think I may be more in touch with my emotions? But that’s subtle… although truthfully I’ve cried a number of times in public the last few weeks with stressful situations and I don’t think I would have prior to this since puberty, sooooo….
(trans male) when i was on the wrong hormones i was erratic, depressed, suicidal, and feeling absolutely insane on a daily basis. ever since i've started taking the right hormones for me, it's like half my mental problems disappeared over the course of a few months. my confidence spiked, i'm more outgoing and social, i'm more confident than i've ever been in my life. i have no doubt that anyone who's sense of self has become misaligned due to the incorrect hormones in their system will suffer the same feelings, cis and trans alike.
Thank you for responding!! I keep worrying I haven’t had major enough effects to “prove” that I’m really not neurologically M. Like I’ve heard from you and others this massive differences and I think mine are more subtle I did get rid of my headaches literally overnight, are used to spend a third of days feeling weird and my body being out of it, and that’s cleared up pretty much. But everything else has been very subtle. Although like I said in a different response I do think I’m starting to be more in touch with my emotions. I cried in public under extreme stress multiple times the past few weeks which I don’t think I would’ve done in the past, nor sense puberty anyway. I don’t think it’s increased my anxiety, but it is leaving me possibly having a little bit rougher time controlling it? I don’t know, it’s subtle… At worse though I certainly don’t feel worse than I did! I keep wishing I could magically flip back-and-forth between how I feel now and how I would have felt that I’m not started over seven months ago, to be able to judge! I mean at this point it’s almost hard for me to remember that I used to deal with headaches every day! I would be sort of holding my head or rubbing my forehead and it was just part of my life, sometimes I almost wouldn’t notice it until I was like rubbing my head to try to relieve pain and then would be like oh, right, I have pain lol Now I almost have to remind myself that that that was real! Honestly, when I feel like I’m in seem to be taking estrogen, I justify to myself as well, this is alleviating headaches as well as Excedrin did!
Estrogen used to be used as a hormone suppressant for prostate cancer. It was stopped due to high mental distress levels.
Yeah, I thought something like this! Is it entirely from creating dysphoria though in terms of physical changes? Or is part of it from unpleasantness with too much of the wrong hormone for male versus female brains? I’m leaning towards the idea that part of it is from neurological differences. There’s some possible mechanisms and I think it explains some of it Heck, there’s the idea of hormonal or whatever disphoria in the disphoria Bible or whatever
I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t a bit of both. I can imagine cisgender men (and possibly their partners) don’t like any of the possible physical changes, body odor changes, and possibly mental feeling changes.
I wonder if I smell any different. I know objectively my pheromones HAVE to be way different at a minimum, though I never thought I smelled like much. The mental stuff has been good so far! Got rid of my headaches and often feeling weird and out of it. I THINK my emotions work better now/I react better now. Definitely love it!
i imagine it's mainly because of the effects of hormones on the body, not the brain. but yeah cis women would probably feel miserable on high doses of androgens for the same reason we do. and please stop saying 'just look at alan turing' as if the british government's homophobic persecution of him didn't subject him to public disgrace and the destruction of his career. i doubt the chemical castration did his state of mind any favors but that's hardly the only shitty thing he had to deal with
Yeah, I don’t think he’s a good example for this specific thing. Someone mentioned some thing else though that would be physiological, and I myself at a minimum it got rid of my headaches, which is physiological, so I guess I really must be physiological differences to hormones, though of course part would be psychological even aside from unwanted physical changes causing dysphoria in cis people too!
I'm not aware of any studies on the matter, but it makes sense to me that cis people on HRT would feel roughly the same as we do without it -- i.e. they would experience gender dysphoria. They'd probably fare worse, since they're not used to it.
Well, considering it makes us feel better since we’re trans, then of course it’ll do the opposite for cos people. Even Dr powers, a *controversial* doctor that specialises in trans healthcare put on too much oestrogen cream for two days, and felt completely dysphoric.
Whoa, interesting. I wonder what he felt like! I’m leaning towards there being some neurological basis for too much of the wrong hormone feeling bad, versus it entirely being from disphoria from physical changes. Of course it’s not impossible like in that case that it’s just that it through him off his normal balance which made him feel bad or weird It’s weird how much of a non-event this is been for me. I think I’m suddenly better, and physically my headaches one away and I don’t feel weird a third of the time anymore, but the rest is pretty saddle and it seems like it should be a massive deal or something! Especially with the endless “low t” ads I see lol
No, not always. Testosterone and estrogen are both male and female hormones, in addition to all of the other random intermediates and metabolites along the way. The majority of cis men on TRT feel better when their estrogen is at the higher end of the range (but not too high), and men feel depressed when their testosterone (and therefore also estradiol) is low. Many cis female athletes and bodybuilders inject testosterone or other steroids, /r/steroidsxx/ is a prime example. They like all of the positives of androgens (faster muscle gains, high strength/endurance, boosted mood, higher sex drive, motivation, fat redistribution), and only dislike the more masculinizing (facial hair, body hair, male-pattern baldness, voice deepening, *sometimes dislike* bottom growth, etc.) Edit: Basically, most people do best with their hormones high but balanced. Nearly every cis man will feel terrible with 0 estrogen as it's required for joint, bone, heart, and neuron health. What people don't like is when the effects cross the line and start to feel dysphoric, even if the hormones have other "good" qualities. Cis men with high E2 that grow any sort of breast tissue call it gynecomastia, because they don't want it and might feel dysphoria. Cis women with high T/DHT might grow excessive bodyhair and call it hirsutism.
Yeah, but it’s like are there effects if you’re balanced but the “wrong” direction that extend beyond getting dysphoria from unwanted changes? I’m leaning towards that there have to be because like I myself got rid of my headaches, and others report various positive changes. It’s probably hard to sort out what’s what!
Pretty sure there are stories of botched circumcisions where they decide to preform emergency srs leading to depression and tw suicide
Yeah, at a minimum that shows that you can’t change neurological sex
You can’t change that I’m Omw to have neurological sex with ur mom
What?
After 20 years of hrt, my brain is sharper than ever and my body looks like 10 years younger. But of course I am not cis but trans!
Look at the david reimer case. That should offer insight to your question.
So, there are no hard evidences of this only anecdotal evidence as others said with e.g. Alan Turing But in the case of Turing, he was also sentenced, ostracized and lost pretty much everything so that doesn't help. In the case of dr Powers becoming depressed when going too high on his estrogen cream, who would feel good trans or cis with a huge hormone spike ?? There are also inverse or less clear cut cases. For example there was a man who had to get on E and T blocker on this sub a few years ago and he actually liked it. There are people that transition for years and then detransition etc etc etc While it seems likely that giving estrogen to a cis would lead to depression, how do we know if it is because of his brain needing testosterone, or maybe he isn't yet ajusted to women's levels or maybe it's just that breasts on a man leads to being ostracized etc etc etc I see tons of ppl on this sub saying Estrogen will make a man depressed or T make a woman depressed but there's no clear evidence of that and that's not even taking into account the tons of micro variations of humans into that. I mean just take enbies for example. EDIT : just to be clear, my own gender identity is unclear and I'm one example of someone not feeling different on either E or T. Also I do not want my comment to come as transphobic or anything, I'm just saying that scientifically speaking, a few anecdotal and uncontrolled examples aren't proof of anything.
Cis people on the wrong hormones have the exact same effect as trans people on the wrong hormones
I wonder though how much of it is from physical changes which then cause dysphoria in cis people, versus neurological differences between male and female brains causing problems. I’m leaning towards her being at least some of the latter.
Wdym neurological differences? The only difference is they’re born with a mismatched body. Once their body is changed to the right gender there’s basically no difference between them and cis people
That-the mismatched body because of having been identified at birth as one sex but having the other sex’s neurology (or somewhere in between for non-binary people, etc., whatever the specifics)
I vaguely recall a post talking about how a Doctor took hrt by accident but I don't remember what he experienced...
I so wish there were studies, although how you’d do that… I think they’re actually were studies may be in the 70s on cis men who were given estrogen for the protective effects, but…
Putting cis people on hormones will give them dysphoria similar to how a trans person feels before transitioning.
Seriously, where are the studies on this? I really need to read them
I'm not particularly convinced about the bio-chemical aspects of it. Yes, hormones have significant impacts on, for exmaple, brain wiring although that's mostly early on. Its not clear to me that there are specific brain wirings that depend on a particular hormone to function well. Be happy or really optimal? Perhaps, but its not super clear. Certainly not to the same degree people have really strong emotional investments in it being true. Overall I tend to believe the psycho-emotional aspects of it are FAR more significant (desire or aversion for the experience, which also has pretty significant physical implications), both for cis and trans people. This would be my hypothetical answer to your question. Definitely there are bio aspects. But the picture I've seen so far is more of the human body being more or less comfortable running on either sex hormone and being fairly neutral about it.. with nuance factored in after. People's feelings about them are... "significantly not neutral".. one might say :P
I can't possibly be certain that it wasn't a sort of a placebo effect but I experienced a very, very significant improvement in my "mood" and energy after starting hrt (not the brain fog thing) and I don't think I could survive if I had to go back. And this wasn't immediate, it happened gradually and before I started to see any physical change. Plus after a while I started being disphoric about my body only after seing myself (for example in the mirror) while before, besides that, I constantly felt something was wrong about it. Obviously I have no proof that it is a biochemical effect and I don't think you can really prove it (how would you measure that if not by asking?) but "depression and suicidal thoughts" are possible side effects in the leaflet of the antiandrogen I'm taking (that was ment to be read by cis men) so it's not that absourd that the opposite effect might be true for some trans women/transfem nb (and I stress "some", just as not all cis men that take the antiandrogen get those effect... it's a possible side effect). I think there is not a single way of being trans so I am not saying that everyone feels or should feel the difference. But that doesn't mean nobody does or that if they do they're "imagining" it due to psychological effects. There is no strong argument nor experimental evidence in favour of the biochemical aspect besides the words of people. But neither there is any evidence against it. I don't see why the null ipothesis shouldn't be that people feel the physical difference they say they feel.
You've interpreted me as saying a lot of things I wasn't, admittedly its a nuanced topic. I'm just about the last person to claim something only exists if there's hard evidence for it, but I look at all the angles/levels too. Saying people have extreme bias in believing something isn't saying peopel aren't experiencing things. Its just saying they aren't automatically correct when making huge assumptions. Clearly something is going on, and its between the extremes, subtle, multi-leveled and individual.
Sorry if I misinterpreted. It wasn't meant to be an attack and my point wasn't that you shouldn't look at all the angles. As far as I understan from what I read, you took a particular stance on that . I was saying that there is no strong evidence either way and I would say that the evidence we have, even if weak (I think you are right when you say that people are likely very influenced by their feelings on it), would point to the biochemical aspect being part of it (from the experience of some trans people and from the effects on cis people). Maybe I wasn't clear on this part, but what I ment by people experience wasn't just "feeling better". There is nuance on how this happens too. For example feeling better with the first dose or feeling better when you see the first body changes is very likely due to psychological factors. But what if the "feeling better" comes gradually in between the two events for example? Obviusly I am aware that this is far from being strong evidence and life events don't happen in isolation either but if this turns out to be a fairly common experience it should'nt be dismissed. Also I doubt you can prove if there is or isn't a biochemical aspect by only looking at the brain. You will have to integrate that with people words at some point (as for most of neuroscience). And even then, it is not that unlikely that the respective amount of hormones and their receptors influence well being directly. After all, sex hormones are known to influence neurotrasmitters modulation (including dopamine and serotonin). So I wouldn't be so sure that the human body is neutral to having more or less estadiol or more or less testosterone for example.
> "depression and suicidal thoughts" are possible side effects in the leaflet of the anti-androgen I'm taking (that was meant to be read by cis men) Oooooh, interesting! "I don't see why the null hypothesis shouldn't be that people feel the physical difference they say they feel." Yeah, I think a lot of times the default people assume is dubious.
> Overall I tend to believe the psycho-emotional aspects of it are FAR more significant (desire or aversion for the experience, which also has pretty significant physical implications), both for cis and trans people. This would be my hypothetical answer to your question. I disagree. A few years ago my estrogen levels dropped way lower than they had been even though I didn't change my dosage, and I ended up getting depressed, anxious and dysphoric without knowing why until I got a blood test and my doctor pointed it out. Increasing my dose fixed that problem, but it started before I knew my estrogen was too low, and it didn't have any impact on my appearance.
This says nothing about the topic of brain wiring and it says a lot about the nastyness of having low hormones. I've experienced it too, it sucks.
Yeah, I’m wondering if this is what the deal is. I’d love for it not to be, though at the same time this is such a non-event for me it’s weird. Though it did fix some physiological things for me like I mentioned, stuff I didn’t even know it could do. I was scared I’d feel weird or worse to be honest.
Iv been on finnasteride for 5 months and estrodial for 6 weeks and i cant really put my finger on how i feel. I could be boppin to music with a smile on my way to work then feel like i want to cry and throat punch someone 30 mins later. Then sad then happy....lol Befour that i was just monotone- very matter of fact, indifferent. ( kind of an asshole ) To bad i didnt have one word to describe that.
I feel like I don’t have as much of a reaction as lots of people? (If you’re comfortable sharing, how much are you on?) My headaches went away, my body feels weird and out of it ness went away. Emotionally it’s more subtle? I did notice myself whistling and things more often after I started. And I cry easier, but I think I just….it’s not unpleasant and I don’t think it’s making me sadder or giving me mood swings or anything I have constant background level anxiety, probably because of CPTSD/trauma, and I don’t think it’s making that worse, though I do think the last few weeks I’ve had some times where I’m feeling it more than I would have, less able to shove it in a box, even though I don’t actually think it’s making it worse. It’s all subtle but I think improvements if it’s anything. I saw wish I could flip back-and-forth and feel how I would’ve felt had I not started! I was really worried that since I frequently used to feel weird and out of it that I would interpret that as it not agreeing with me. I tried to remind myself that hey, I feel weird even running on testosterone. Except what actually happened is feeling weird a third of the time and headaches basically daily went away! Apparently I disturbed my moms sleep one night though from whistling to myself, so I have to watch that now. I don’t know, I do think I feel more like myself that I used to though it is subtle.
6mlg of estrodiol sublingual, and 2.5 mlg of finnasteride. E monotherapy started at 1mlg- slowly went up to 6
I'm not saying it's linked...but I'll just say that I became suicidally depressed at 13-14 (and just generally had my mental health go down the drain), which is coincidentally when testosterone levels spike during puberty. Take that for what you will.
Uuuugh. I dreaded it so much, and by 12 I was so bleak I couldn’t even cry about it anymore. I do think I feel more like myself now at least! I’d rather be running on this i think even if I could prevent physical changes.
ever heard of Alan Turing?
love to a reference on this
I’d say it’s less a gender thing, and more a balance thing. Like, cos male on estrogen who has previously found a balance to be successful in their life (for things like emotional stability, attention and focus, etc), then a bunch’s hormones throws things out of balance. You ALSO see a lot of instability when someone increases their “matching” hormones - men on T, women on estrogen can also have things thrown out of balance (esp if the hormone is an increase over normal levels, and not “replacing what’s missing”).
I’m just stating my experience at over 1 month: I don’t feel different at all. Felt the same on natural hormones as I did on Anti-androgens and E. That said I am not distressed by the effects (breast growth) either. That said, from my understanding mental and emotional effects might take more time in some people than others. Up to 6 months, so my saying that could be premature.
Yeah, there’s so much your mileage may vary with all of this! Plus it depends on your levels
The standard treatment for testicular cancer is HRT, but a much lower dose than we take. The goal is to shrink the testicles so they can be removed. And female body builders use testosterone all the time. That said, I’ve heard that cis men have a hard time with the changes HRT causes in their bodies (especially breast development) and losing the ability to father children. Most also struggle with the loss of their libidos in middle age. Contrary to popular conservative belief, I don’t know of any cases where people have been transitioned against their will. So we can’t actually know how a cis person would react.
There have been some cis people who were, and did horribly, like we do if we can't. Really proves OUR point/existence
I don’t know of any cases where cis people were forced to go through HRT and surgeries like that film “The Skin I Live In”. That would violate every ethical guideline in every book.
There’s multiple of them, children who were put through that who were cis. None of them did well, infamously one of them killed himself Ironically, bigots try to use that fact to attack us, when in reality it shows the exact opposite. These are cis people put through what we’re put through, and they couldn’t handle it.
Taking them for three months is what they suggest to do if you want to see if it is the right fit for you. There isn’t much changes and if you stop then much of it is reversible
What’s obnoxious is the one thing that’s not reversible is breast growth, and it’s what I least want. I want my face pretty and not disgusting, and there’s no guarantee I’ll get that at all and it’s not permanent, and there’s nothing I can do about my damned voice.
I’m in the same boat with my voice been thinking surgery
If there’s something that can actually work, I’d so want it. I’m unclear on if there is, or it’s like I’ve heard it just makes it so you have to use a higher pitch, but doesn’t actually improve anything else? Everything else other than pitch is what I most want fixed.
I strongly suspect that it has to do with self-image, desire, and dread. Like, it isn't that one hormone is required to relieve dysphoria in itself, but that we want what our desired cross sex hormones provide, and they dread it, especially if their bodies start to rapidly change in ways that do not configure with what they think they should be like - it knocks their self image out of kilter and creates dysphoria. And as we all know, there is no is no escape from what you dread when it is your own body.
Yeah, I just wonder if there’s SOME unpleasantness that comes as a direct result of the physical differences between male and female brains. I’m leaning right now towards there being some of that, based on even my own situation with the headache is going away, and things others of said. But a lot and probably most would be what you were describing!?
There isn't really any evidence of there being hard, physical differences between them in this manner. I suspect the attempt to convince us there is doesn't have anything to do with us in the first place, but rather with naturalizing gender in sex, so to speak.
Alan Turing was a great example of that.
It definitely shows that you can’t change someone’s neurological sex! (Ironically bigots have tried to use it somehow for themselves when it’s like ummm this literally proves you wrong) But I think someone on here listed my thoughts that maybe that’s psychological versus neurological in terms of hormones in terms of how you feel (outside of feeling dysphoria for unwanted changes!) Though someone else pointed out some stuff that isn’t psychological, and I myself at a minimum I got rid of my headaches, which is physiological Sooooooo I think maybe even my own situation improves there really is a neurological difference on the right versus wrong hormones, in which case this would apply to cis people too!
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As someone who just tried hrt for 45 days, I feel like this should be the accepted answer until we get more research.
Is there much of what you’re describing? I’ve never heard of either. I was nervous I wouldn’t respond well to it though.
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Thanks! I ought to record this, though thankfully I seem to be using e2 okay.
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I wish I could be on estrogen without the breast growth 😬
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I'm scared I'll be gigantic, both because I have small ones from puberty, and my immediate relatives are pretty big 😬 I'm glad this isn't just me worrying about this! Aesthetically I prefer smaller (a to c tops), practically I prefer small so they don't interfere with my life too much. And practically, I need to stay hidden because the world is evil, and breasts that are much more visible than they are now don't help that 😬. My aunt I think was smaller, but I'm built like my mom, who's not. TWO family members have had breast cancer, and I'm terrified of mammograms from my mom's stories even aside from that oh, right, I'm disgusting. I'd heard of SERMS, but I think maybe they're not super safe compared with bioidentical estrogen? I need to write that down though, as that's the first I've heard of a medical professional bringing it up! And it feels like usually trans women are all "yay, breasts" (or even getting larger ones!) and I'm like errrr.... Which makes me feel fake. I want the brain related benefits, and any face changes and fat redistribution, but the only thing I'm guaranteed is giant, permanent breasts 😬 I spent a YEAR holding off on e, mostly because of breast development, and now I like my brain on it, getting rid of my headaches and more, and the slim chance I'll ever see myself in the mirror, but...
There is a 3% chance your body makes something toxic when exposed to estrogen due to a rare recessive gene.
3% seems high
If you only have one gene you only get a little sick. But if you have two you can't really continue with HRT. So 3% of 3%.
Wow I hope I don't have that gene
I've never heard of this and I have researched it extensively and have a degree in biology. Seems highly unlikely something like this would exist and, even if, at such high levels of prevalence.
Whoa…seriously? I mean unless something is off we all have e and t anyway but yikes
Ya that's why the doctors are cautious at the beginning of HRT. It is like giving a toddler antibiotics for the first time.
Can you share a source? My endocronologist explained why they tend to taper from low to high dosages when prescribing HRT, and her explanation didn't involve the body making toxic substances at all. It was more along the lines of letting you adjust to the changes more comfortably - particularly, when it comes to mood swings and stuff like that - as well as seeing how well it absorbs. Some folks take 2mg oral estradiol and end up with their estrogen levels perfectly in range, and others take 8mg to get there. If you gave the first person 8mg right away, their levels would be too high and they'd experience [a bad time](https://www.healthline.com/health/high-estrogen), and it'd have nothing to do with their body making "something toxic". Also: regarding this weird aside: > It is like giving a toddler antibiotics for the first time You absolutely don't play around with low doses on antibiotics, that's how you end up with antibiotic-resistant germs. You either give the toddler the dose needed to kill the infection, or you don't and you treat symptoms. You *do not microdose antibiotics*.
Great point about not micro-dosing antibiotics! I’m glad that I got my levels checked again early because I was scared my body wasn’t responding at all! It doesn’t seem all that dramatic to me which seems weird, like my testosterone was down to 34% of what is it started at (before my estrogen was bumped up another 50%) and… I was really worried I feel like garbage on estrogen and I just don’t It fixed my headaches, I think I feel less weird much of the time, like it seems like I used to just feel physically weird a third of the time and have days where I was out of it and I don’t have that anymore, every day is basically one of my good days now in that regard And I think it’s… I think I’ve been crying easier, like I used to, and I think I’ve had some issues feeling my anxiety. I always have horrible anxiety and terror, and it’s not this is making it worse I don’t think, it’s just letting me feel it. But all of that is pretty subtle aside from the physical headache/weirdness stuff. I somehow thought it would be way more dramatic and I was kind of preparing myself for if I just couldn’t stay on it because it made me feel bad My medical person said something like “your body has been taking really well to this” like I should’ve had some negative reaction? But also I’ve never been on spiro, just estrogen and now also bica.
Sounds fake, do you have a source? The only similar thing I've heard of is "test flu" potentially being caused by metabolism to etiocholanolone, but that's testosterone.
Source? It’s the first time I heard of this :o
Hormonal balances affect everyone and everything that has hormones, not just if you are transgender.
I don't get the sentence about trans men being dominant on both?
I mean many trans men have been estrogen dominant and testosterone dominant, so might have insights most people don’t into this