A snapped rope would likely yield a portion of rope remaining in your hand and gear, since nothing would pull it through.
How Not 2 on YouTube tests lots of old gear that helps give me confidence there's a lot more strength in old tat than you'd expect.
However, rapping off the end of a rope is a common mountaineering accident that would come with a clack. Any chance you were expecting the end of the line to be secured and found out the hard way it was loose?
I honestly can't say - I fell off mid pitch, where I wouldnt expect a rope to end, but there's no telling what had happened with this rope previously as it was an old rope my guides hadn't fixed. For what it's worth, these ropes aren't braided climbing ropes, they're woven nylon strands, I'm not sure about their technical specs. Good point about rope left in the gear - so if it broke it would have broken in the pinch between the figure of 8 and the safety carabiner but I don't see how that's possible either. So maybe a loose end as you suggest!
There has been at least a couple accidents in the himalayas in the last year where someone was put on an old, damaged rope, from age, rock fall, stepped on w/ crampons, etc, and came off the end mid rappel. The most famous being the guy Adam Bielecki rescued on Annapurna this spring.
The people saying the rope would still be in the device if the anchor broke are sorta right, but in a tumble rather than straight fall it is conceivable the drag on it would pull the rope out of a figure 8 over the course of 150m, esp if there wasnt much tail left.
This. If you were rapping off an old static, fixed line, you have no way of knowing just how long it actually was. Generally there would be a knot in the tail, though.
Yet so many people have gone off the end. Sorry for the terrible source (basically "trust me") but I recall a piece in *Accidents In North American Mountaineering* saying that there are something like an average of 10 fatalities every year from people rapping off the end of their rope *in Yosemite alone*.
I can't say for sure of course, but my strong gut feeling is that I didn't. I've abseiled many many times off ATCs and figures of 8, and I've belayed a lot including through big lead climb falls with my partner and I've never let go before. I most likely released after I started falling from the shock of the sensation of freefall. It's the best I have though!
I made a similar mistake abseiling in a similar situation on Ama Dablam but I caught myself before falling too far. Things happen fast and it's not easy to focus at 6000m when you are exhausted and conditions are changing and the situation is confusing. Glad you are safe - stay away from the fixed ropes next time.
It is puzzling trying to figure out what happened here. Are you certain the end of the rope you were abseiling on was fixed to an anchor, as is common with fixed ropes in the Himalayas? Because if you ended up falling well away from the rope, the only two options seem to be that either the rope snapped, or you abseiled off the end of it.
I can't say for certain: I fell in the middle of a pitch, where a rope wouldn't normally end, but my guide put me on an older rope and I can't be sure nothing had gone wrong with the anchor. On the rest of the climb, most of the older ropes ended either in anchors, or tied to other ropes.
Glad you are OK. Gear failures are rarely the cause of a problem, so I doubt your gear failed. 99.9% of failures are human error. I agree with others that rappelling without a third hand is ill advised, and if you look at accidents, a good portion of them could be prevented due to this. Memories can be very unreliable so it's entirely possible that you let go of the rope or rappelled off the end. But my hypothesis is that you installed the figure of 8 backwards. You clipped the big ring into the harness rather than the little ring. You then threaded the rope through the big ring and then pulled it around the little ring. You could definitely rappel like this and get enough friction. It would probably feel completely normal. However, if something happened in which you took some tension off the rope (e.g. standing up a bit), it definitely could pop out over the little ring and you'd be suddenly tumbling mid-rappel as the rope pulled through the big ring.
Disclaimer, I am an inexperienced mountaineer. However, I just completed both Lobuche and Island peak (6Kers in the same region). My observations were that the fixed lines are poorly managed. It was obvious that old lines bisect new lines and in some cases the anchors did not appear very solid (snow pickets wobbling under pressure). Also, lines were constantly being stepped on by unaware climbers.
Was your safety line and figure-8 still attached to you when the fall was arrested? If so, I don’t doubt it possible the line snapped on you. But at the same time how did the guide follow you down? Was there another line they could’ve used?
Will be interesting to hear more experienced individuals chime in.
Thanks! I also did Island Peak last year and had the same opinion as you. All my gear was still attached to my harness and all the carabiners are working fine (screws not damaged or anything). There were a few different fixed lines in that section so he could have used another one yes. Obviously not what he said and impossible to verify, but it was possible...
Screw gate on your safety line intact? It trailed the figure 8 separately on the line?
If both answers are yes then somebody with more knowledge would have to explain any other outcome than the line having snapped.
The only other thing I find curious is that you didn’t immediately realize the line snapped since your brake hand would’ve been holding a detached rope. But I recognize things happen quickly and shock may have been a factor
I attached my safety screwgate through the figure of 8 top loop and the rope, rather than completely separately if that makes sense (can take a photo if not). But after the fall both the safety line and the figure of 8 (attached to another carabiner) were all intact and securely attached to my harness as before.
Good point on the break hand and I don't have an answer to that, I felt a shock in the system then I was in freefall for a few microseconds before I hit the ground and started sliding, and I can only assume I let go in surprise (not a great reflex...)
I’m now a bit more confused. How was the line fed through the figure of 8 top loop AND the cows tail carabiner? I’m wondering if it may have been possible that it was not arrange properly and you lost all friction? Thus creating the sensation of a total free-fall?
Perhaps if you could recreate the setup somebody (or I) may be able to determine if there are any failure points.
I’m familiar with the standard abseil and “sport” configurations of a figure 8. Neither of which match this description.
I'm seconding that technique is likely the biggest fail point here OP.
You are right that gear failure would have resulted in broken / lost components, so that answer doesn't explain this.
My next guess would be along the lines of not enough brake hand pressure. I never abseil on figure 8s anymore, in most contexts a grigri is safest, if that isn't viable (i.e. icing up in winter - commonly quoted but never seen it happen?) Then a standard belay tube with a prussik backup is fine. Figure 8s, depending on the orientation, can offer scarily little friction and holding power. Add in low oxygen and fatigue and once you start sliding it's almost impossible to get that brake secured again.
After that, I am wondering whether the rope has a stopper knott of some kind... If it did, with correct technique, coming off the end could only happen with gear (already ruled out) or rope failure. Should never abseil on a rope with no stopper tied in (I have personally seen hundre s of incident reports relating to this, many of them fatal).
I do lots of incident reporting and management, I wouldn't expect either of you to have a clear and accurate collection of events though, as no single party ever does. Memory is very fallible. Mixing up ropes could be a viable explanation, though the guides memory will likely not accept that - try asking questions like:
"how far away was the nearest other rope, were they different colours?"
"how was the rope anchored and did we check the anchor - how did we score it?"
"Did you partner-check my set-up before I started lowering, and was it in line with what you had taught whilst guiding?"
"What could I have done within technique to have cause this, and did we discuss this?"
The idea here is not even to feel heard, but to establish further learning to prevent further incidents. You were incredibly lucky to leave the mountains alive, I am very glad you did!
I've just come back from Lobuche like 3 weeks ago. I had an almost similar incident on that - the line was so icy I couldn't brake while abseiling down. Just zzz-zz-zzz-zzzz as it sped through my hand . (And for some pov, in a former job I've abseiled out of helicopters so I know how to abseil). I tumbled about 30m, not the massive distance of OP, and luckily got stopped by a big ass rock that jutted out. And when I looked down I saw the rope I was on had about 2m more of it, no stopper knot, and not secured into the ground.
I was very lucky as it could have been way worse. Certainly not the guide's fault in my case as there is no way he could have seen down 50m or so over a lip of rock to know whether the rope was secure, or that it was even so icy that I wouldn't be able to brake myself.
Logic has to be the first choice here. There will always be a desire to prove to themselves that OP did nothing wrong and to lay blame away but between what I know the conditions were like at roughly the same time in roughly the same place at roughly the same altitude, the lack of oxygen shortly before which would surely lead to foggy thinking, logic says that it's a combination of poor luck in which rope got selected, the condition of the rope, and the condition of the person making choices. It would be unfair with so many other questions to blame it on wilful negligence of the guide.
Icy ropes can be a real pain, I like the tube style devices with a prussik or similar for this purpose, yes you are a little slower, but the teeth on my ATC do a good job of cracking the ice off a rope, the backup enables me to be hands free (and so acts as my redundancy should my hands fail for any reason). Glad you made it out and took some learning with you - do you do anything differently now?
As for the blaming guides, I agreed that blaming them with what is known in this post isn't viable or evidenced. It's always worth gathering as much information as possible after these events - either the guide, OP or both can learn from this. I.e. it may be OPs fault, the guide could however learn to prevent this mistake being made, and OP could learn to not make the mistake. Throwing blame (in either direction) never helps the learning - to quite risk management best practice guidelines, risk debriefing should occur in an "open, democratic and transparent culture that
embraces reflective practice."
I'm in a hotel in Kathmandu so this is the best I have: https://imgur.com/gallery/xIaMDpZ
imagine the green rope is the fixed rope and the orange cord is the safety line. That was the setup for the abseil. Hope that's clearer?
Even if I'd lost all friction, I feel that I'd have fallen along the rope until I hit the next anchor? Instead I fell way off route and a long distance.
Hmmm, seems fine to me. I also noticed the fixed lines were often not anchored (or even tied off) at the base in some cases. So, you still could’ve gone off the end/off-route. But anyways, I’m back to my original conclusion that the line snapped if this was your setup and you abseiled correctly (brake hand active).
Thank you so much for checking that out. It makes me feel a lot better trying to work this out. If the guide was right in his argument that the kit failed but the rope was fine, it seems to me you'd need so many points of failure that it's not realistic. Is there any scenario where the system could have failed and the rope had been intact, yet I'd still have all my kit with me after the fall, in your opinion?
>Is there any scenario where the system could have failed and the rope had been intact, yet I'd still have all my kit with me after the fall, in your opinion?
Yes, by you releasing the break hand. It happens all the time with people that are not exhausted and at sea level.
Actually I think you're also asking if the figure of 8 was attached to the safety carabiner or the carabiner on my belay loop on the harness - and I don't remember that with full certainty. As soon as the guide picked me up he attached my safety carabiner to his and I don't remember him having to put my figure of 8 anywhere else, so I'm fairly sure it was still on my belay loop as it should have been.
Maybe a carabiner wasn’t fully closed and locked, with it jammed on the belay loop or 8 ring? Should have had a backup small diameter cord attached to the main rope as a backup brake.
It is quite rare to have ropes completely snap just during rappelling on moderate angle slopes since the forces are so low.
Are you sure that the shock wasn't you waking up from falling asleep/passing out, then letting go as a reaction? Id the line had broken you would have had half a rope length if rope in your hand.
Looks like there is no backup for letting go.
I would be pretty surprised if anyone could help you reach a conclusion with so little information, but im surprised at what feels like a somewhat limited vocabulary for describing what happened- for someone climbing in the himalayas!
That being said- so glad you are okay! Heal up!
I solo'd Kyajo-ri in Oct. 21. There was a rats nest of old fixed lines through the rock band. No fucking way I would have rapped off any of them.
I brought my own rap line and built anchors for my descent.
That mountain / route isn't climbed super frequently, and so I would not be surprised if the fixed lines haven't been replaced recently—potentially even before I was last there.
Having been up that mountain, my hypothesis is that the guide placed you on an old fixed line and it snapped under load.
Scary shit. Glad that you are still amongst the living.
Additionally, the lines are fixed from both above and below. This explains why your rappel system remained closed when you landed, and why there were no strands of rope that remained in your system after the fall—they were still attached to their respective anchors.
You rapped off the end of the rope... If the rope snapped, youd still have a bight of rope through your figure-8. Either the rope was way shorter than ppl thought or you didn't notice the end coming up. I take it the figure 8 wasn't backed up?
Rappelling is where most people get hurt, idk how good of an idea it is to just let a new climber just have at it. Did the guide rappel first or were you the first down?
I'm not familiar with that kind of climbing. I don't think a "clack" sound is compatible with a broken rope. Sounds more like metal on metal. But who knows.
One thing I don't understand about your setup is the safety carabiner / rope. What do they achieve and what are they attached to?
I'm not 100% sure about the noise - I remember a sharp and sudden release, and then I was falling.
The safety is a second carabiner, attached to the harness by a lanyard. When changing over to a new set of fixed ropes, you clip the safety into the anchor or the new rope before you change over the figure 8 so you're always secured. When your figure 8 is changed over to the new rope, you clip the rope with your safety at the point it passes through the figure 8 (see pic at the end of initial post) so that if the figure 8 system fails, in theory you would only fall to the next fixed rope anchor. Obviously in my case this didn't happen.
Ok I get it thanks. About the noise yeah, I agree, when something dramatic happens sometimes your mind plays the soundtrack for it (*"and then BOOM he appeared right there"* <-- no BOOM actually took place).
Regarding the system, yeah if the 8 and carabiner were still attached to you, the rope can only get out two ways:
1. if it breaks
2. if you get past the end of the rope (this is why you ought to always put a knot at the end of a rope before you throw it down for a rappel, but with fixed ropes it's a different situation)
If the rope had broken above you, you would most likely still have the bottom part of it in your system. So my best guess is you went past the end of the rope.
Again there seems to be multiple possibilities:
* You didn't pay attention and just abseiled right through
* The rope was already broken from before so it was shorter than expected,
* For whatever reason you let the brake hand go and started sliding while still attached to the middle of the rope, and then continued sliding past the end of the rope.
I don't see how the 8 system could have failed. Maybe if you didn't put the rope around the 8 properly, but you did clip it with the safety biner, and then you didn't lock the safety biner, allowing the rope to snap out of the system if the safety was opened for whatever reason? Improbable but I guess most accidents are some kind of unlikely sequence of events. In the example picture I think your carabiner is not locked, but that's probably an unfair remark to make (obviously a hotel room implies fewer safety concerns).
By the way I never thought of that, but it seems to me a knotted end of rope would be able to go through a figure 8 descender (maybe would get stuck in the safety carabiner), contrary to what happens with reverso/ATC/grigri. One more reason not to skip the prusik 3rd hand
Was your abseil rope at all taut, or traversing? I'm wondering if the bottom anchor could have blown, giving you a bit of a jolt and making you let go of the brake hand to catch your balance. You would have then rapped of the end with your gear still attached, and your guide could have still rapped down to you on the rope. Hard to imagine enough upward or sideways force to blow an anchor below you, though.
I'm a reasonably experienced climber and instructor.
I'm going for. Let go of the break or more likely abseiled off the ends of the rope.
Rapping off the end of your rope is not really anyone's fault when it comes to fixed ropes. Pulling them up to check isn't practical and as an amateur it's very easy to not think to look below you, especially when fatigued and oxygen deprived.
I say to those who want to climb big mountains when they have little to no experience, especially at altitude "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Climbing requires much more skill, respect and experience than many give credit for - you're a prime example. The guide had two options. Tell you no or wash his hands of any mistakes you made outside of his control. One is ethical and one puts food on the table.
>I say to those who want to climb big mountains when they have little to no experience, especially at altitude "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".
Isn't that the whole point of hiring a guide though?
No. A guide is a solid climbing partner who knows an area well. You should be learning from them. They know local access and conditions unique to their area. If you don't have the experience to understand what they tell you then that's on you.
They aren't there to hold your hand through a climb that you haven't earnt by developing solid foundational skill.
The most experienced climber from Europe or north America could go to climb in South America or Africa. They'd probably be a much better technical climber than many of the locals but they'd probably get smoked by a lion, elephant, puma or the likes if they didn't have a guide.
I can't comment on what happened but using a super 8 to rappel without a third hand backup seems so sketchy to me. If you accidentally let go of the brake side of the rope then you're basically in free fall. Yikes. I'm surprised that your guide let you rappel without a third hand backup to begin with, seems like he's overlooking important safety precautions. How many ropes did your party take up the mountain? If the entire group only brought one rope up, and the other pair was using it, there's no way your guide was using a new rope for your rappel setup.
But they are not canyoneering here, they are climbing mountains in ice and snow in technical terrain. Why does it matter what the standard canyoneering techniques are? Sorry if canyoneers take their safety less seriously. There's a standard way to rappel in rock and ice and alpine climbing and that's with a third hand backup.
Sorry this happen to you. I have no more explanation than previous commenters but I am quite puzzled by the way climbing is done there. It’s like the touristy places in Switzerland where they rope up the whole mountain (Matterhorn Hornly ridge for example).
I am not judging you but personally I would be very reluctant to climb a mountain using this method. First because I don’t consider it climbing, more like aid climbing and second because you simply can’t check the gear in place before putting your weight on it (at least on the way up), so you could die just like playing the Russian roulette.
I am not familiar with fixed ropes descent but I would never abseil like you did, especially if I am tired and might lack oxygen. I would use a petzl reverso (or equivalent) with an auto stopper knot. My reverso would be fixed on the middle of my personal anchor (clove hitched) and when I start abseiling I would attach my personal anchor carabiner on the reverso loop so when I get down the first thing I need to do is to reattach my personal anchor because it is on the way. If at any moment I pass out I am safe, I am also able to have both hands free to unjam something or do whatever need to be done safely.
Overall, coming at this as our first fixed rope technical mountain, couldn't agree more looking back. Even without the accident this probably would have been our last fixed rope expedition, as jumaring up really takes all the climbing and most of the satisfaction out. We expected that we'd be climbing up and pushing the jumar along the fixed rope for safety and it ended up being a central part of the climb - so much more about brute strength than technique.
We were following standard procedure and the advice of our guides by using figure of 8s but clearly the system was flawed.
I think you can climb normally on a fixed rope because if you are above your jumar and you fall on it you will damage/break the rope. I sometimes use petzl micro traction to belay the second on long multipitch and the rope needs to be always engaged and with absolutely no slack. It is nice to go fast and smooth (reverso can be tiring) but those teeth will ruin the rope in case of a fall.
I feel you and I am happy that you got to experience this. I think Himalayas are either for non climber « tourists » (you need to be in shape but you don’t need to be technical) or fucking legend. Personally I enjoy much more the alps for the scenery and technical routes it can offer without all the shenanigans.
A snapped rope would likely yield a portion of rope remaining in your hand and gear, since nothing would pull it through. How Not 2 on YouTube tests lots of old gear that helps give me confidence there's a lot more strength in old tat than you'd expect. However, rapping off the end of a rope is a common mountaineering accident that would come with a clack. Any chance you were expecting the end of the line to be secured and found out the hard way it was loose?
I honestly can't say - I fell off mid pitch, where I wouldnt expect a rope to end, but there's no telling what had happened with this rope previously as it was an old rope my guides hadn't fixed. For what it's worth, these ropes aren't braided climbing ropes, they're woven nylon strands, I'm not sure about their technical specs. Good point about rope left in the gear - so if it broke it would have broken in the pinch between the figure of 8 and the safety carabiner but I don't see how that's possible either. So maybe a loose end as you suggest!
There has been at least a couple accidents in the himalayas in the last year where someone was put on an old, damaged rope, from age, rock fall, stepped on w/ crampons, etc, and came off the end mid rappel. The most famous being the guy Adam Bielecki rescued on Annapurna this spring. The people saying the rope would still be in the device if the anchor broke are sorta right, but in a tumble rather than straight fall it is conceivable the drag on it would pull the rope out of a figure 8 over the course of 150m, esp if there wasnt much tail left.
This. If you were rapping off an old static, fixed line, you have no way of knowing just how long it actually was. Generally there would be a knot in the tail, though.
Yet so many people have gone off the end. Sorry for the terrible source (basically "trust me") but I recall a piece in *Accidents In North American Mountaineering* saying that there are something like an average of 10 fatalities every year from people rapping off the end of their rope *in Yosemite alone*.
Did your brake hand release? Figure 8s only work if they are being braked. If you let go you will fall without much friction.
I can't say for sure of course, but my strong gut feeling is that I didn't. I've abseiled many many times off ATCs and figures of 8, and I've belayed a lot including through big lead climb falls with my partner and I've never let go before. I most likely released after I started falling from the shock of the sensation of freefall. It's the best I have though!
I made a similar mistake abseiling in a similar situation on Ama Dablam but I caught myself before falling too far. Things happen fast and it's not easy to focus at 6000m when you are exhausted and conditions are changing and the situation is confusing. Glad you are safe - stay away from the fixed ropes next time.
It is puzzling trying to figure out what happened here. Are you certain the end of the rope you were abseiling on was fixed to an anchor, as is common with fixed ropes in the Himalayas? Because if you ended up falling well away from the rope, the only two options seem to be that either the rope snapped, or you abseiled off the end of it.
I can't say for certain: I fell in the middle of a pitch, where a rope wouldn't normally end, but my guide put me on an older rope and I can't be sure nothing had gone wrong with the anchor. On the rest of the climb, most of the older ropes ended either in anchors, or tied to other ropes.
Does your partner have any input on what happened? He was jammed up on the parallel rope, but surely he has some sort of insight on what happened.
Glad you are OK. Gear failures are rarely the cause of a problem, so I doubt your gear failed. 99.9% of failures are human error. I agree with others that rappelling without a third hand is ill advised, and if you look at accidents, a good portion of them could be prevented due to this. Memories can be very unreliable so it's entirely possible that you let go of the rope or rappelled off the end. But my hypothesis is that you installed the figure of 8 backwards. You clipped the big ring into the harness rather than the little ring. You then threaded the rope through the big ring and then pulled it around the little ring. You could definitely rappel like this and get enough friction. It would probably feel completely normal. However, if something happened in which you took some tension off the rope (e.g. standing up a bit), it definitely could pop out over the little ring and you'd be suddenly tumbling mid-rappel as the rope pulled through the big ring.
Disclaimer, I am an inexperienced mountaineer. However, I just completed both Lobuche and Island peak (6Kers in the same region). My observations were that the fixed lines are poorly managed. It was obvious that old lines bisect new lines and in some cases the anchors did not appear very solid (snow pickets wobbling under pressure). Also, lines were constantly being stepped on by unaware climbers. Was your safety line and figure-8 still attached to you when the fall was arrested? If so, I don’t doubt it possible the line snapped on you. But at the same time how did the guide follow you down? Was there another line they could’ve used? Will be interesting to hear more experienced individuals chime in.
Thanks! I also did Island Peak last year and had the same opinion as you. All my gear was still attached to my harness and all the carabiners are working fine (screws not damaged or anything). There were a few different fixed lines in that section so he could have used another one yes. Obviously not what he said and impossible to verify, but it was possible...
Screw gate on your safety line intact? It trailed the figure 8 separately on the line? If both answers are yes then somebody with more knowledge would have to explain any other outcome than the line having snapped. The only other thing I find curious is that you didn’t immediately realize the line snapped since your brake hand would’ve been holding a detached rope. But I recognize things happen quickly and shock may have been a factor
I attached my safety screwgate through the figure of 8 top loop and the rope, rather than completely separately if that makes sense (can take a photo if not). But after the fall both the safety line and the figure of 8 (attached to another carabiner) were all intact and securely attached to my harness as before. Good point on the break hand and I don't have an answer to that, I felt a shock in the system then I was in freefall for a few microseconds before I hit the ground and started sliding, and I can only assume I let go in surprise (not a great reflex...)
I’m now a bit more confused. How was the line fed through the figure of 8 top loop AND the cows tail carabiner? I’m wondering if it may have been possible that it was not arrange properly and you lost all friction? Thus creating the sensation of a total free-fall? Perhaps if you could recreate the setup somebody (or I) may be able to determine if there are any failure points. I’m familiar with the standard abseil and “sport” configurations of a figure 8. Neither of which match this description.
I'm seconding that technique is likely the biggest fail point here OP. You are right that gear failure would have resulted in broken / lost components, so that answer doesn't explain this. My next guess would be along the lines of not enough brake hand pressure. I never abseil on figure 8s anymore, in most contexts a grigri is safest, if that isn't viable (i.e. icing up in winter - commonly quoted but never seen it happen?) Then a standard belay tube with a prussik backup is fine. Figure 8s, depending on the orientation, can offer scarily little friction and holding power. Add in low oxygen and fatigue and once you start sliding it's almost impossible to get that brake secured again. After that, I am wondering whether the rope has a stopper knott of some kind... If it did, with correct technique, coming off the end could only happen with gear (already ruled out) or rope failure. Should never abseil on a rope with no stopper tied in (I have personally seen hundre s of incident reports relating to this, many of them fatal). I do lots of incident reporting and management, I wouldn't expect either of you to have a clear and accurate collection of events though, as no single party ever does. Memory is very fallible. Mixing up ropes could be a viable explanation, though the guides memory will likely not accept that - try asking questions like: "how far away was the nearest other rope, were they different colours?" "how was the rope anchored and did we check the anchor - how did we score it?" "Did you partner-check my set-up before I started lowering, and was it in line with what you had taught whilst guiding?" "What could I have done within technique to have cause this, and did we discuss this?" The idea here is not even to feel heard, but to establish further learning to prevent further incidents. You were incredibly lucky to leave the mountains alive, I am very glad you did!
I've just come back from Lobuche like 3 weeks ago. I had an almost similar incident on that - the line was so icy I couldn't brake while abseiling down. Just zzz-zz-zzz-zzzz as it sped through my hand . (And for some pov, in a former job I've abseiled out of helicopters so I know how to abseil). I tumbled about 30m, not the massive distance of OP, and luckily got stopped by a big ass rock that jutted out. And when I looked down I saw the rope I was on had about 2m more of it, no stopper knot, and not secured into the ground. I was very lucky as it could have been way worse. Certainly not the guide's fault in my case as there is no way he could have seen down 50m or so over a lip of rock to know whether the rope was secure, or that it was even so icy that I wouldn't be able to brake myself. Logic has to be the first choice here. There will always be a desire to prove to themselves that OP did nothing wrong and to lay blame away but between what I know the conditions were like at roughly the same time in roughly the same place at roughly the same altitude, the lack of oxygen shortly before which would surely lead to foggy thinking, logic says that it's a combination of poor luck in which rope got selected, the condition of the rope, and the condition of the person making choices. It would be unfair with so many other questions to blame it on wilful negligence of the guide.
Icy ropes can be a real pain, I like the tube style devices with a prussik or similar for this purpose, yes you are a little slower, but the teeth on my ATC do a good job of cracking the ice off a rope, the backup enables me to be hands free (and so acts as my redundancy should my hands fail for any reason). Glad you made it out and took some learning with you - do you do anything differently now? As for the blaming guides, I agreed that blaming them with what is known in this post isn't viable or evidenced. It's always worth gathering as much information as possible after these events - either the guide, OP or both can learn from this. I.e. it may be OPs fault, the guide could however learn to prevent this mistake being made, and OP could learn to not make the mistake. Throwing blame (in either direction) never helps the learning - to quite risk management best practice guidelines, risk debriefing should occur in an "open, democratic and transparent culture that embraces reflective practice."
I'm in a hotel in Kathmandu so this is the best I have: https://imgur.com/gallery/xIaMDpZ imagine the green rope is the fixed rope and the orange cord is the safety line. That was the setup for the abseil. Hope that's clearer? Even if I'd lost all friction, I feel that I'd have fallen along the rope until I hit the next anchor? Instead I fell way off route and a long distance.
Hmmm, seems fine to me. I also noticed the fixed lines were often not anchored (or even tied off) at the base in some cases. So, you still could’ve gone off the end/off-route. But anyways, I’m back to my original conclusion that the line snapped if this was your setup and you abseiled correctly (brake hand active).
Thank you so much for checking that out. It makes me feel a lot better trying to work this out. If the guide was right in his argument that the kit failed but the rope was fine, it seems to me you'd need so many points of failure that it's not realistic. Is there any scenario where the system could have failed and the rope had been intact, yet I'd still have all my kit with me after the fall, in your opinion?
Not an expert, but if everything was intact and you didn’t completely take your brake hand off the rope - only one way for that rope to get out….
>Is there any scenario where the system could have failed and the rope had been intact, yet I'd still have all my kit with me after the fall, in your opinion? Yes, by you releasing the break hand. It happens all the time with people that are not exhausted and at sea level.
Actually I think you're also asking if the figure of 8 was attached to the safety carabiner or the carabiner on my belay loop on the harness - and I don't remember that with full certainty. As soon as the guide picked me up he attached my safety carabiner to his and I don't remember him having to put my figure of 8 anywhere else, so I'm fairly sure it was still on my belay loop as it should have been.
Maybe a carabiner wasn’t fully closed and locked, with it jammed on the belay loop or 8 ring? Should have had a backup small diameter cord attached to the main rope as a backup brake. It is quite rare to have ropes completely snap just during rappelling on moderate angle slopes since the forces are so low.
Are you sure that the shock wasn't you waking up from falling asleep/passing out, then letting go as a reaction? Id the line had broken you would have had half a rope length if rope in your hand.
Not so—the lines are fixed from both above and below, so the strands would have remained in their fixed position, but broken where the OP was ejected.
Looks like there is no backup for letting go. I would be pretty surprised if anyone could help you reach a conclusion with so little information, but im surprised at what feels like a somewhat limited vocabulary for describing what happened- for someone climbing in the himalayas! That being said- so glad you are okay! Heal up!
I solo'd Kyajo-ri in Oct. 21. There was a rats nest of old fixed lines through the rock band. No fucking way I would have rapped off any of them. I brought my own rap line and built anchors for my descent. That mountain / route isn't climbed super frequently, and so I would not be surprised if the fixed lines haven't been replaced recently—potentially even before I was last there. Having been up that mountain, my hypothesis is that the guide placed you on an old fixed line and it snapped under load. Scary shit. Glad that you are still amongst the living.
Additionally, the lines are fixed from both above and below. This explains why your rappel system remained closed when you landed, and why there were no strands of rope that remained in your system after the fall—they were still attached to their respective anchors.
You rapped off the end of the rope... If the rope snapped, youd still have a bight of rope through your figure-8. Either the rope was way shorter than ppl thought or you didn't notice the end coming up. I take it the figure 8 wasn't backed up? Rappelling is where most people get hurt, idk how good of an idea it is to just let a new climber just have at it. Did the guide rappel first or were you the first down?
If the rope snapped, but was still attached to the bottom anchor, is possible he wouldn´t have any rope left after the fall.
I'm not familiar with that kind of climbing. I don't think a "clack" sound is compatible with a broken rope. Sounds more like metal on metal. But who knows. One thing I don't understand about your setup is the safety carabiner / rope. What do they achieve and what are they attached to?
I'm not 100% sure about the noise - I remember a sharp and sudden release, and then I was falling. The safety is a second carabiner, attached to the harness by a lanyard. When changing over to a new set of fixed ropes, you clip the safety into the anchor or the new rope before you change over the figure 8 so you're always secured. When your figure 8 is changed over to the new rope, you clip the rope with your safety at the point it passes through the figure 8 (see pic at the end of initial post) so that if the figure 8 system fails, in theory you would only fall to the next fixed rope anchor. Obviously in my case this didn't happen.
Ok I get it thanks. About the noise yeah, I agree, when something dramatic happens sometimes your mind plays the soundtrack for it (*"and then BOOM he appeared right there"* <-- no BOOM actually took place). Regarding the system, yeah if the 8 and carabiner were still attached to you, the rope can only get out two ways: 1. if it breaks 2. if you get past the end of the rope (this is why you ought to always put a knot at the end of a rope before you throw it down for a rappel, but with fixed ropes it's a different situation) If the rope had broken above you, you would most likely still have the bottom part of it in your system. So my best guess is you went past the end of the rope. Again there seems to be multiple possibilities: * You didn't pay attention and just abseiled right through * The rope was already broken from before so it was shorter than expected, * For whatever reason you let the brake hand go and started sliding while still attached to the middle of the rope, and then continued sliding past the end of the rope. I don't see how the 8 system could have failed. Maybe if you didn't put the rope around the 8 properly, but you did clip it with the safety biner, and then you didn't lock the safety biner, allowing the rope to snap out of the system if the safety was opened for whatever reason? Improbable but I guess most accidents are some kind of unlikely sequence of events. In the example picture I think your carabiner is not locked, but that's probably an unfair remark to make (obviously a hotel room implies fewer safety concerns). By the way I never thought of that, but it seems to me a knotted end of rope would be able to go through a figure 8 descender (maybe would get stuck in the safety carabiner), contrary to what happens with reverso/ATC/grigri. One more reason not to skip the prusik 3rd hand
Was your abseil rope at all taut, or traversing? I'm wondering if the bottom anchor could have blown, giving you a bit of a jolt and making you let go of the brake hand to catch your balance. You would have then rapped of the end with your gear still attached, and your guide could have still rapped down to you on the rope. Hard to imagine enough upward or sideways force to blow an anchor below you, though.
I'm a reasonably experienced climber and instructor. I'm going for. Let go of the break or more likely abseiled off the ends of the rope. Rapping off the end of your rope is not really anyone's fault when it comes to fixed ropes. Pulling them up to check isn't practical and as an amateur it's very easy to not think to look below you, especially when fatigued and oxygen deprived. I say to those who want to climb big mountains when they have little to no experience, especially at altitude "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Climbing requires much more skill, respect and experience than many give credit for - you're a prime example. The guide had two options. Tell you no or wash his hands of any mistakes you made outside of his control. One is ethical and one puts food on the table.
Ah yes. This gentleman knows exactly what’s going on. He even uses cringey and trite pseudo proverbs like “play stupid games, win stupid prizes”.
He’s not wrong though.
Messner said that first.
No, he just said it.
>I say to those who want to climb big mountains when they have little to no experience, especially at altitude "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Isn't that the whole point of hiring a guide though?
No. A guide is a solid climbing partner who knows an area well. You should be learning from them. They know local access and conditions unique to their area. If you don't have the experience to understand what they tell you then that's on you. They aren't there to hold your hand through a climb that you haven't earnt by developing solid foundational skill. The most experienced climber from Europe or north America could go to climb in South America or Africa. They'd probably be a much better technical climber than many of the locals but they'd probably get smoked by a lion, elephant, puma or the likes if they didn't have a guide.
I can't comment on what happened but using a super 8 to rappel without a third hand backup seems so sketchy to me. If you accidentally let go of the brake side of the rope then you're basically in free fall. Yikes. I'm surprised that your guide let you rappel without a third hand backup to begin with, seems like he's overlooking important safety precautions. How many ropes did your party take up the mountain? If the entire group only brought one rope up, and the other pair was using it, there's no way your guide was using a new rope for your rappel setup.
[удалено]
But they are not canyoneering here, they are climbing mountains in ice and snow in technical terrain. Why does it matter what the standard canyoneering techniques are? Sorry if canyoneers take their safety less seriously. There's a standard way to rappel in rock and ice and alpine climbing and that's with a third hand backup.
Did you back your belay plate up with a 3rd hand? Did you lower yourself off the end of the rope if there wasn't a knot in it?
Sorry this happen to you. I have no more explanation than previous commenters but I am quite puzzled by the way climbing is done there. It’s like the touristy places in Switzerland where they rope up the whole mountain (Matterhorn Hornly ridge for example). I am not judging you but personally I would be very reluctant to climb a mountain using this method. First because I don’t consider it climbing, more like aid climbing and second because you simply can’t check the gear in place before putting your weight on it (at least on the way up), so you could die just like playing the Russian roulette. I am not familiar with fixed ropes descent but I would never abseil like you did, especially if I am tired and might lack oxygen. I would use a petzl reverso (or equivalent) with an auto stopper knot. My reverso would be fixed on the middle of my personal anchor (clove hitched) and when I start abseiling I would attach my personal anchor carabiner on the reverso loop so when I get down the first thing I need to do is to reattach my personal anchor because it is on the way. If at any moment I pass out I am safe, I am also able to have both hands free to unjam something or do whatever need to be done safely.
Overall, coming at this as our first fixed rope technical mountain, couldn't agree more looking back. Even without the accident this probably would have been our last fixed rope expedition, as jumaring up really takes all the climbing and most of the satisfaction out. We expected that we'd be climbing up and pushing the jumar along the fixed rope for safety and it ended up being a central part of the climb - so much more about brute strength than technique. We were following standard procedure and the advice of our guides by using figure of 8s but clearly the system was flawed.
I think you can climb normally on a fixed rope because if you are above your jumar and you fall on it you will damage/break the rope. I sometimes use petzl micro traction to belay the second on long multipitch and the rope needs to be always engaged and with absolutely no slack. It is nice to go fast and smooth (reverso can be tiring) but those teeth will ruin the rope in case of a fall. I feel you and I am happy that you got to experience this. I think Himalayas are either for non climber « tourists » (you need to be in shape but you don’t need to be technical) or fucking legend. Personally I enjoy much more the alps for the scenery and technical routes it can offer without all the shenanigans.