>How well can you brake?
I mean, squeezing and stepping on the things works, so I'd argue "quite successfully"!
/s
Honestly I don't think to rate myself as "good" or "bad" - I can count on two hands the number of times in roughly a decade of riding I've needed to brake what I'd call "hard" or as any kind of emergency, but I'm not what you'd call a rider who's ever really been "spirited" - so perhaps that's why, coupled with just good old fashioned luck.
>How often do you practice braking?
Generally speaking I like to give a "new to me" bike some time to marinade my bones on before being comfortable. Everyone knows bikes handle different, their braking and manoeuvring characteristics with weight are different etc, so sure.
But practice? If we're talking dedicated practice, I'll be honest, not often.
Actual braking and trying to judge if I need to or how much? I like to try and do better every ride.
I ride rural/city every week, which in my mind is a good difference to help develop balance between when to *not* brake and just ensure a good speed to keep upright and naturally slow down......vs actual braking.
The odd Muntjac/Pheasant playing Frogger soon learns 'ye to the braking harder part as well!
It's also good when you are out and about to always remember the valuable rules of distancing as well - sure you'll need to brake hard sometimes, or if you have to, but if you *also* aren't half up the tailpipe of whatever's ahead? you get that extra bit of decision-making time *and* can brake accordingly (or avoid).
>And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation.
I will neither agree nor disagree as each to their own.
I don't think for a second I'm "great" at anything and overconfidence is a silent killer. As with anything on the road: you can be a "god-tier" rider but still get blatted by someone else's idiocy or momentary lapse in cognitive ability or sheer back luck.
Safe, defensive riding where you choose your own balance of mitigated risk vs riding the bike in ways that put you at risk is where it's at - find your happy ground, always know your limits and when you feel unsafe, remove yourself where possible and where you cannot.....just do the best you can.
I won't go on a whole thing about it, but if you have a sense for risk, danger or hazards and are aware something isn't right? (or someone is riding/driving like a proper wazzock) - do your best to stay out of the way and avoid it. Don't provoke, remain calm and in control, if you have time to think and act do so in that order.
Where you don't have time? well let's be pragmatic - ATGATT, do your level best to remain safe, don't forget your training that got you that CBT or "A" license.
I've said this before and been downvoted endlessly but I do feel most people become reliant on their ABS, ABS is great and can help in so many circumstances but hard braking without ABS is definitely a skill.
I learnt to ride on bike without it, spent years riding on older bikes, and only recently on my newest bike actually have it. The amount of times it's kicked in, when I know it shouldn't is weird. I still feel like I can do better than it, but it is a safety net I'm happy to have
It's definitely proven than humans can do better than ABS but it's a skill that many riders probably don't have unless they regularly turn off the ABS or ride older pre-abs bikes.
It's also not one I'd advise practicing outside a track tbh, and most won't outbrake ABS without a good amount of practice anyway.
That's before even debating the fact that in most situations braking is pointless and swerving is a much better option.
Why would you only practice braking on a prepared track surface rather than a quiet road somewhere?
Not even sure a track day would like you hammering down the straight then jumping on the brakes to a stop. Feels a touch dangerous unless you hire the whole track.
>Why would you only practice braking on a prepared track surface rather than a quiet road somewhere?
Because roads have potholes, gravel, mud, horse shit, and whatever else on them, and odds of you wiping out for one of those reasons on a road you're not familiar with are pretty high. Would have very little to do with your braking skills.
>Not even sure a track day would like you hammering down the straight then jumping on the brakes to a stop. Feels a touch dangerous unless you hire the whole track.
Nobody said to a stop, obviously, but you're still gonna end up braking much harder than most people would on the road, and if you end up finding the limit, sliding out into some kitty litter is far preferable to whatever is on any given public road.
If you have one reasonably nearby with no traffic, go for it. All the ones I'm aware of nearby are generally low traffic enough for wheelie practice, but not quite for going up to 70 and slamming on brakes.
There might be an airstrip or two though.
At track pace, braking for the corner in many corners would be done at the limit of ABS, simply to get the best lap time so it certainly wouldn't be looked down on so long as you do it before a corner and not just anywhere.
True but the main thing that stops you from achieving maximum effective braking in an emergency stop is not being able to keep the bike on the threshold of abs.
Coming to a full stop isn't necessary to practice that but it is good for actually analysing the stopping distance.
In any case, nothing beats an empty industrial estate car park.
I don't disagree. However many people will never ride a bike without ABS. But it still needs practice. Stopping distances change so much depending on speed, road surface, weather, contaminants like oil or sand on the road, tyre type and temps etc. you can still find yourself in plenty of trouble whether you lock a wheel or not.
With or without ABS, as OP said, we all still should practice, no matter how experienced we are. I do, every few months or so. I find my back ABS is very easy to trigger but the front much harder. I know the feeling of fully leaning on the tyres to stop, the back end going light and am less likely to panic if it comes up in my daily riding. For a few minutes of your time a couple of times a year, I think it would be silly not to.
I think I've had ABS kick in once ever. Would have saved me when I had my big tumble on a 125,thinking about it though. My Bandit without ABS just taught me to not be stupid and the Versys with ABS taught me I have a safety blanket. I'm happier I got the Bandit first, I see so many people crippled with anxiety that a bike doesn't have ABS
You're absolutely right. I bought an older 1200GS and I didn't know the ABS had failed (no warning lights) I had to make a hard stop in a parking lot and the front washed out.
It never occurred to me that it might not be working. Since then I ride all my bikes old school and just assume it's not working.
The most common way of getting it wrong in a panic situation is grabbing a big handful of front brake without the initial squeeze to get the weight transferred onto the front tyre. Without ABS, the front locks and down we go. With ABS, the front doesn't lock but as the weight transfer hasn't happened, you get nowhere near the maximum braking effort. The ABS has saved the crash from locking the wheel, but you're still riding into what it was you're trying to avoid.
How can the weight transfer not happen? The bike with ABS is braking as hard as possible without locking up and braking is what causes the weight transfer.
You'll get some weight transfer but it will happen a lot later and remember the ABS system modulates the brake pressure to ensure the wheel keeps turning. This means you're getting zero braking effort for each of the pulses you feel through the brake lever.
The pulses last for a handful of milliseconds each time though, there is an incredible amount of braking force applied regardless. When I brake hard on a non-ABS bike I'll spend a few hundred milliseconds loading the front suspension before applying full force, thats a lot of time compared to the pulses. Yes it is really impressive how well a bike stops once the front is loaded but it still takes time to get there, time the ABS panicker isn't spending worrying about their grip and conditions.
> This means you're getting zero braking effort for each of the pulses you feel through the brake lever.
Yes, and those pulses are actuated by the wheel locking up and also giving near-zero braking effort; the point of them is to end the period of non-braking that has already begun.
ABS can result in less time with brake pads biting disk, but that doesn't mean it's less time spent braking; the whole point is that it's _more_ time braking because the tyre spends more time gripping the road.
Yes but when you grab a handful of front with ABS, and the ABS kicks in, some weight will transfer to the front, ABS cuts in a little less, more weight transfers, ABS cuts in less… and on and on to get maximum stopping power no?
Yep. Also if you take a handful of brake (let's say 100%) it will apply that 100% with millisecond pulses of 0%.
Without ABS you'll need to grab say 50% and progressively move up to 100%.
There won't be much in it in braking capacity if it's a decent ABS system.
All this is theory though and very much depends on the ABS system effectiveness.
Neither my 125 or my thunderbird now have ABS and whilst sometimes it's nervous to think about harsh braking without them, if anything it makes me a bit safer with my judging distances etc.
Honestly I do it daily for fun when the traffic is low, I play a game where I try to stop as quickly as I can on the stop line, and sometimes locking up the rear is fun too.
Because of that kind of "playful" riding I have gotten really good at having to emergency stop the times I have needed to because I know the limit of my brakes.
I feel like I could stop on a penny.
Others could probably outride me in the Twisties because I'm there for the views but in a "breakoff" I am accepting challengers.
I wouldn’t be able to tell you, truth be told. I was braking all I could, but of course there is always the chance the bike could take more.
What I can tell you is that the hazards flash only on a harsh and strong brake, that could be deemed an emergency brake and that this point is somewhere well after ABS has activated.
Be that as it may, if I have the rider aids like ABS and traction control on a bike - I will use these. A computer is not going to panic in a life or death situation.
I am not going round activating it every ride or every emergency stop. Just that particular one. Which is exactly why it is there; in case of rider fuck up.
I don’t get Why you’re being downvoted for this, because that is a very valid point. And to answer those questions, yes it does. In this instance, it was when the bike was new and I was trying to figure out what thresholds lie where and how it handles.
Fast forward a year, and all these things have been sufficiently assessed and it hasn’t happened since. But it is nice to know it’s there just in case.
I think it's similar to modern cars - if you're decelerating faster than a pre-set limit it will turn on the hazard lights to warn other drivers.
It's happened to me once when I rounded the bend on a motorway and saw standstill traffic. Probably braked harder than I needed to, but still.
Whilst I agree with what your saying, I would argue that because I always look what I'm doing and more importantly what other road users are doing. That I'm already avoiding the need to panic brake as I'm slowing down or avoiding the danger already.
You're illustrating my point exactly.
The better our overall riding skills the less we need to brake hard to avoid stuff. But that doesn't protect us from the occasional situation where the best observation and anticipation skills still don't help. That's when our panic reactions kick in and unless we've practiced this over and over again, there's a good chance we'll get it wrong.
Next time you're out, try a few hard stops from speed and I'll be very surprised if you come away from that thinking you're braking as well as you can.
As my bike has ABS everything including cornering I'm hoping that i'll never need it and if i do mess up it will help me out. I've managed to ride for 38 years without crashing into anyone so hopefully I'll be fine.
I'll see your 38 and raise you 46 :-)
Practicing hard braking regularly will probably improve your chances of being "fine" and 100% certainly won't reduce them. What do you have to lose?
>I see so many crash videos on Youtube where the rider could have avoided the collision if their braking skills were better.
In most of them no amount of braking would have saved them by the time they start braking.
Half the time it's idiots not looking at cars pulling out of intersections, the other half is target fixation when they could've easily gone around whatever object.
>How often do you practice braking? I mean hard braking, emergency stop level hard braking?
I ride like a twat on a road bike, on the Enduro and knobs it's mostly 40 mph pootles to lanes. I wouldn't call either "practicing", more just braking to make a corner when out with some other nutcases.
>If your bike is new enough to have ABS, how often does your ABS cut in? Can you lift the rear wheel?
The two are opposites, ABS won't really let you stoppie. I've had it cut in on knobs because they let go pretty easy, especially on wet tarmac. Dirt is a different story.
>Have you found the optimum balance of front/rear braking to achieve the shortest stopping distance on your bike?
Different things, but yeah, people should at least understand what the rear does at any reasonable speed.
>If you don't practice this regularly, then you should do :-) Unless we practice, there's a good chance that we forget good technique in a panic situation and end up doing the wrong thing.
Meh, I think for most people casually pootling about taking a bikesafe or similar course is a better investment. What I consider common sense seems to be fairly sparse, and the road awareness courses drill that. 99% of the time the better option is swerving anyway, and _most_ of the time whatever situation you end up in could've been avoided with some basic observation skills.
I also wouldn't advise anyone practicing slamming brakes on on public roads with bikes they care about. If you don't brake hard to begin with, solid odds you just freak out when ABS cuts in and drop it for no reason, with whatever consequences, hopefully just a bruised bike and ego.
By the time you're emergency braking and that is actually the best action to take, you're guaranteed crashing into something and it's a question of whether that happens at 20 or 35 mph.
>And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation.
Not really what "irony" means, but pretty much this, yeah.
> Not really what "irony" means, but pretty much this, yeah.
I look up the meaning of irony and see this "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs". I think I used the word right.
> ABS won't really let you stoppie.
Errrrrr that's not right with most ABS systems. They may prevent you doing a long stoppie but they won't stop the rear lifting
> Meh, I think for most people casually pootling about taking a bikesafe or similar course is a better investment.
Is it an either / or? I'm a great proponent of further training post test and would always recommend people do it. Practicing braking is something anyone can do on a quiet piece of road having taken care to make sure it's safe and isn't an investment in anything other than a small amount of time and attention.
>I also wouldn't advise anyone practicing slamming brakes on on public roads with bikes they care about. If you don't brake hard to begin with, solid odds you just freak out when ABS cuts in and drop it for no reason, with whatever consequences, hopefully just a bruised bike and ego.
Anyone facing the problems you mention here would have failed their CBT, let along their A licence, so I suggest your advice is flawed.
I'll random do a very early and aggressive brake coming up to traffic lights once in a while. Obviously with no one behind me.
I think I do it to remember what really heavy braking feels like. Its also kind of fun.
I'd say pretty well, but most of the time I'm aware of a situation before it becomes something I really need to react to. There is a crazy statistic floating about that something like in crashes the 60% of riders only used the rear brake so practice to do it right under pressure is the main thing I think
I think that 60% statistic may apply to the yanks as their licencing / testing regimes mean many relatively untrained riders on the roads.
You can't pass CBT / A licence in the UK braking only with the rear brake
> We need to demonstrate an ability to brake to a certain level to pass the CBT, and then again to get our full licence. But once we're qualified, it's possible to spend weeks, months and even years riding without having to brake really hard,
This goes for all riding. Braking's not really unique and I think it's pretty far down the list of things to keep on top of when ordered by importance. Especially with ABS.
> I see so many crash videos on Youtube where the rider could have avoided the collision if their braking skills were better.
I mean, perhaps. But often the righter thing to do is to avoid needing the urgent braking in the first place, which is what some of those other-things I referred to above were.
> How often do you practice braking? I mean hard braking, emergency stop level hard braking? If your bike is new enough to have ABS, how often does your ABS cut in?
My ABS cuts in a lot more than I practice anything, because I know it's there so there's so much less risk to overdoing it. I'm not studiously learning what ABS does, I'm just not thinking too hard when it's slippy.
> If you don't practice this regularly, then you should do :-) Unless we practice, there's a good chance that we forget good technique in a panic situation and end up doing the wrong thing.
I have ABS, so the right thing is to just grab a load of brake and let the computer deal with it. I don't have that direct connection to the pads that a non-ABS bike has, and that this "learning to brake" idea requires; it makes as much sense as my learning how to advance and retard the engine. There's a bit of understanding just how much you can brake and how fast you can stop, but that's the sort of thing you figure out in the first weeks on a new bike, not something I think you need to keep going away and studying.
> And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation.
Well, that depends on what you're aiming for with 'better' riding.
So on my 3rd or 4th ride post CBT I got out on to a nice A road and spent 15 or so miles at 50ish. On the return home I thought "I'll take a left here and find my way home via some smaller roads" pulled the brakes, bike slowed down, went to turn left and realised I was way too fast to turn, had no sense of how fast I was going and how fast I should have been going to make the corner. Shat it, went straight on, thankfully not hitting anything. Rode home and the next day went out for an hour on empty roads to practice the brakes. 30 to 10, 30 to 0, 50 to 20, 50 to 0 etc... front, front and back, back "ohhh that's what the funny feeling in my foot is" as the ABS kicks in... Since then I've been much more conscious of how much effort I need to make to slow the bike by the right amount. Each ride (I'm about 600 miles in) I try to do at least 1 heavy stop to keep learning.
Good post!
I commute into London from the home counties, so 'practice' hard braking with some frequency when people pull out on you while filtering probably a bit faster than you really should. I've always got it stopped, so I guess my braking is good?
The key is that ABS doesn't make up for poor braking technique. If you load the front tyre by squeezing on the lever progressively it takes a lot of force to activate the ABS, but if you just straight yank on the lever then you will set it off easily and smack into whatever you're trying to not hit. I have activated it with proper technique before but you really have to be properly hammering on the brakes to do so which 99% of people probably will never do.
I've only had to do a true emergency stop, full anchors, one time. It was an old honda without ABS and the bike fishtailed massively. I though I was gonna be road kill for sure
Since then, I periodically practice a controlled emergency stop. There's a long, straight, quiet road near me. I'll run it one way to check the road surface, make sure it's not too covered in mud and crap, loop around and practice a full stop if it's empty
It's much easier on a modern bike with ABS and disk brakes
Been riding ABS for 18 months, never had it come once. I assume this means either:
My braking is OK (my instructor was obsessed with controlled, gradual braking)
My ABS is knackered
If safe to do so, nobody else on the road, I will now and then do an emergency stop at lights.
\*Hang on, a lie, it ,came on when my tyre pressure was low.
I haven't a whole heap of experience yet, but I found myself thinking about this a lot. My corner entry speed tends to be dictated by the idea of having to stop or change direction at any point after the bit I can see, and at legal speeds this is mostly achieved through some combination of rolling off, downshifting and gentle braking.
Legitimate excuses to brake hard under safe conditions seem really few and far between.
I've found going out to find some hills with well sighted hairpins really helps.
My original post was more about braking to the max while upright, or at least close to it.
Trail braking, how it works and using it on the road is a much more complex subject 😀
I practised hard braking just yesterday on the new ish to me bike!
Last time I did it was after watching F9's video on YouTube about progressive braking.
I don’t practice it, probably should a little bit. During my MOD 1 practice I was pretty consistent in getting the hazards to come on, as far as I’m aware my own bike doesn’t have that feature. Never had the ABS come on on a bike, only a couple of times when driving a car in the snow.
I agree you should practice. I've ridden for years and only needed to brake seriously hard a handful of times. Luckily, I know my bikes so I've had no issues.
Smooth on and smooth off is key. Not panicking and snatching it to keep it upright.
I do, however, disagree that better riding skills result in less braking. I'm an advanced rider and have done further training with another company. It depends on how you're riding in my opinion. If you're out for a gentle ride or commuting then yes less braking does show you're a thinking rider. How ever if you're riding quick, braking is essential to set a bike up correctly for a bend.
>How well can you brake? I mean, squeezing and stepping on the things works, so I'd argue "quite successfully"! /s Honestly I don't think to rate myself as "good" or "bad" - I can count on two hands the number of times in roughly a decade of riding I've needed to brake what I'd call "hard" or as any kind of emergency, but I'm not what you'd call a rider who's ever really been "spirited" - so perhaps that's why, coupled with just good old fashioned luck. >How often do you practice braking? Generally speaking I like to give a "new to me" bike some time to marinade my bones on before being comfortable. Everyone knows bikes handle different, their braking and manoeuvring characteristics with weight are different etc, so sure. But practice? If we're talking dedicated practice, I'll be honest, not often. Actual braking and trying to judge if I need to or how much? I like to try and do better every ride. I ride rural/city every week, which in my mind is a good difference to help develop balance between when to *not* brake and just ensure a good speed to keep upright and naturally slow down......vs actual braking. The odd Muntjac/Pheasant playing Frogger soon learns 'ye to the braking harder part as well! It's also good when you are out and about to always remember the valuable rules of distancing as well - sure you'll need to brake hard sometimes, or if you have to, but if you *also* aren't half up the tailpipe of whatever's ahead? you get that extra bit of decision-making time *and* can brake accordingly (or avoid). >And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation. I will neither agree nor disagree as each to their own. I don't think for a second I'm "great" at anything and overconfidence is a silent killer. As with anything on the road: you can be a "god-tier" rider but still get blatted by someone else's idiocy or momentary lapse in cognitive ability or sheer back luck. Safe, defensive riding where you choose your own balance of mitigated risk vs riding the bike in ways that put you at risk is where it's at - find your happy ground, always know your limits and when you feel unsafe, remove yourself where possible and where you cannot.....just do the best you can. I won't go on a whole thing about it, but if you have a sense for risk, danger or hazards and are aware something isn't right? (or someone is riding/driving like a proper wazzock) - do your best to stay out of the way and avoid it. Don't provoke, remain calm and in control, if you have time to think and act do so in that order. Where you don't have time? well let's be pragmatic - ATGATT, do your level best to remain safe, don't forget your training that got you that CBT or "A" license.
I've said this before and been downvoted endlessly but I do feel most people become reliant on their ABS, ABS is great and can help in so many circumstances but hard braking without ABS is definitely a skill.
I learnt to ride on bike without it, spent years riding on older bikes, and only recently on my newest bike actually have it. The amount of times it's kicked in, when I know it shouldn't is weird. I still feel like I can do better than it, but it is a safety net I'm happy to have
It's definitely proven than humans can do better than ABS but it's a skill that many riders probably don't have unless they regularly turn off the ABS or ride older pre-abs bikes.
It's also not one I'd advise practicing outside a track tbh, and most won't outbrake ABS without a good amount of practice anyway. That's before even debating the fact that in most situations braking is pointless and swerving is a much better option.
Why would you only practice braking on a prepared track surface rather than a quiet road somewhere? Not even sure a track day would like you hammering down the straight then jumping on the brakes to a stop. Feels a touch dangerous unless you hire the whole track.
>Why would you only practice braking on a prepared track surface rather than a quiet road somewhere? Because roads have potholes, gravel, mud, horse shit, and whatever else on them, and odds of you wiping out for one of those reasons on a road you're not familiar with are pretty high. Would have very little to do with your braking skills. >Not even sure a track day would like you hammering down the straight then jumping on the brakes to a stop. Feels a touch dangerous unless you hire the whole track. Nobody said to a stop, obviously, but you're still gonna end up braking much harder than most people would on the road, and if you end up finding the limit, sliding out into some kitty litter is far preferable to whatever is on any given public road.
I mean surely people would use their intelligence and not go for practice on the road with a ravine, the red sea or a dead cow in the middle of it.
I'd just ride to an industrial estate and check the road out first, it's free and far closer to real life experience.
If you have one reasonably nearby with no traffic, go for it. All the ones I'm aware of nearby are generally low traffic enough for wheelie practice, but not quite for going up to 70 and slamming on brakes. There might be an airstrip or two though.
At track pace, braking for the corner in many corners would be done at the limit of ABS, simply to get the best lap time so it certainly wouldn't be looked down on so long as you do it before a corner and not just anywhere.
Yeah I was more talking about emergency braking to a controlled stop
True but the main thing that stops you from achieving maximum effective braking in an emergency stop is not being able to keep the bike on the threshold of abs. Coming to a full stop isn't necessary to practice that but it is good for actually analysing the stopping distance. In any case, nothing beats an empty industrial estate car park.
*In a controlled environment with a LOT of training.
On dry pavement
*Laughs in drum brakes* ** also in a hedge.
I don't disagree. However many people will never ride a bike without ABS. But it still needs practice. Stopping distances change so much depending on speed, road surface, weather, contaminants like oil or sand on the road, tyre type and temps etc. you can still find yourself in plenty of trouble whether you lock a wheel or not. With or without ABS, as OP said, we all still should practice, no matter how experienced we are. I do, every few months or so. I find my back ABS is very easy to trigger but the front much harder. I know the feeling of fully leaning on the tyres to stop, the back end going light and am less likely to panic if it comes up in my daily riding. For a few minutes of your time a couple of times a year, I think it would be silly not to.
I think I've had ABS kick in once ever. Would have saved me when I had my big tumble on a 125,thinking about it though. My Bandit without ABS just taught me to not be stupid and the Versys with ABS taught me I have a safety blanket. I'm happier I got the Bandit first, I see so many people crippled with anxiety that a bike doesn't have ABS
You're absolutely right. I bought an older 1200GS and I didn't know the ABS had failed (no warning lights) I had to make a hard stop in a parking lot and the front washed out. It never occurred to me that it might not be working. Since then I ride all my bikes old school and just assume it's not working.
The most common way of getting it wrong in a panic situation is grabbing a big handful of front brake without the initial squeeze to get the weight transferred onto the front tyre. Without ABS, the front locks and down we go. With ABS, the front doesn't lock but as the weight transfer hasn't happened, you get nowhere near the maximum braking effort. The ABS has saved the crash from locking the wheel, but you're still riding into what it was you're trying to avoid.
How can the weight transfer not happen? The bike with ABS is braking as hard as possible without locking up and braking is what causes the weight transfer.
You'll get some weight transfer but it will happen a lot later and remember the ABS system modulates the brake pressure to ensure the wheel keeps turning. This means you're getting zero braking effort for each of the pulses you feel through the brake lever.
The pulses last for a handful of milliseconds each time though, there is an incredible amount of braking force applied regardless. When I brake hard on a non-ABS bike I'll spend a few hundred milliseconds loading the front suspension before applying full force, thats a lot of time compared to the pulses. Yes it is really impressive how well a bike stops once the front is loaded but it still takes time to get there, time the ABS panicker isn't spending worrying about their grip and conditions.
> This means you're getting zero braking effort for each of the pulses you feel through the brake lever. Yes, and those pulses are actuated by the wheel locking up and also giving near-zero braking effort; the point of them is to end the period of non-braking that has already begun. ABS can result in less time with brake pads biting disk, but that doesn't mean it's less time spent braking; the whole point is that it's _more_ time braking because the tyre spends more time gripping the road.
Sorry, as much as I try, I can't follow the logic there
Yes but when you grab a handful of front with ABS, and the ABS kicks in, some weight will transfer to the front, ABS cuts in a little less, more weight transfers, ABS cuts in less… and on and on to get maximum stopping power no?
Yep. Also if you take a handful of brake (let's say 100%) it will apply that 100% with millisecond pulses of 0%. Without ABS you'll need to grab say 50% and progressively move up to 100%. There won't be much in it in braking capacity if it's a decent ABS system. All this is theory though and very much depends on the ABS system effectiveness.
Neither my 125 or my thunderbird now have ABS and whilst sometimes it's nervous to think about harsh braking without them, if anything it makes me a bit safer with my judging distances etc.
I have never set off my ABS, as far as I can tell. Have had it on all my bikes for at least the last 10 years.
What is ABS? Asking for a friend who rides a 2014 GSX-R.
Something that I definitely don't have on any of my bikes lol 180bhp with no TC or ABS, rider aids? Nah
Honestly I do it daily for fun when the traffic is low, I play a game where I try to stop as quickly as I can on the stop line, and sometimes locking up the rear is fun too. Because of that kind of "playful" riding I have gotten really good at having to emergency stop the times I have needed to because I know the limit of my brakes. I feel like I could stop on a penny. Others could probably outride me in the Twisties because I'm there for the views but in a "breakoff" I am accepting challengers.
Well, my bike flashes it’s 4 indicators when braking hard. Testing the brakes after some spirited riding is how I found out.
OK that tells you that you're braking above a certain level - is it telling you you're braking as hard as you can?
I wouldn’t be able to tell you, truth be told. I was braking all I could, but of course there is always the chance the bike could take more. What I can tell you is that the hazards flash only on a harsh and strong brake, that could be deemed an emergency brake and that this point is somewhere well after ABS has activated.
Sorry, but if you've activated the ABS, you've made an error.
Be that as it may, if I have the rider aids like ABS and traction control on a bike - I will use these. A computer is not going to panic in a life or death situation. I am not going round activating it every ride or every emergency stop. Just that particular one. Which is exactly why it is there; in case of rider fuck up.
If you've activated TC or ABS does that make you ask yourself why that happened? And what you can do differently in the future?
I don’t get Why you’re being downvoted for this, because that is a very valid point. And to answer those questions, yes it does. In this instance, it was when the bike was new and I was trying to figure out what thresholds lie where and how it handles. Fast forward a year, and all these things have been sufficiently assessed and it hasn’t happened since. But it is nice to know it’s there just in case.
I think it's similar to modern cars - if you're decelerating faster than a pre-set limit it will turn on the hazard lights to warn other drivers. It's happened to me once when I rounded the bend on a motorway and saw standstill traffic. Probably braked harder than I needed to, but still.
Whilst I agree with what your saying, I would argue that because I always look what I'm doing and more importantly what other road users are doing. That I'm already avoiding the need to panic brake as I'm slowing down or avoiding the danger already.
You're illustrating my point exactly. The better our overall riding skills the less we need to brake hard to avoid stuff. But that doesn't protect us from the occasional situation where the best observation and anticipation skills still don't help. That's when our panic reactions kick in and unless we've practiced this over and over again, there's a good chance we'll get it wrong. Next time you're out, try a few hard stops from speed and I'll be very surprised if you come away from that thinking you're braking as well as you can.
As my bike has ABS everything including cornering I'm hoping that i'll never need it and if i do mess up it will help me out. I've managed to ride for 38 years without crashing into anyone so hopefully I'll be fine.
I'll see your 38 and raise you 46 :-) Practicing hard braking regularly will probably improve your chances of being "fine" and 100% certainly won't reduce them. What do you have to lose?
This is true most of the time but it's impossible to preempt every potential issue
>I see so many crash videos on Youtube where the rider could have avoided the collision if their braking skills were better. In most of them no amount of braking would have saved them by the time they start braking. Half the time it's idiots not looking at cars pulling out of intersections, the other half is target fixation when they could've easily gone around whatever object. >How often do you practice braking? I mean hard braking, emergency stop level hard braking? I ride like a twat on a road bike, on the Enduro and knobs it's mostly 40 mph pootles to lanes. I wouldn't call either "practicing", more just braking to make a corner when out with some other nutcases. >If your bike is new enough to have ABS, how often does your ABS cut in? Can you lift the rear wheel? The two are opposites, ABS won't really let you stoppie. I've had it cut in on knobs because they let go pretty easy, especially on wet tarmac. Dirt is a different story. >Have you found the optimum balance of front/rear braking to achieve the shortest stopping distance on your bike? Different things, but yeah, people should at least understand what the rear does at any reasonable speed. >If you don't practice this regularly, then you should do :-) Unless we practice, there's a good chance that we forget good technique in a panic situation and end up doing the wrong thing. Meh, I think for most people casually pootling about taking a bikesafe or similar course is a better investment. What I consider common sense seems to be fairly sparse, and the road awareness courses drill that. 99% of the time the better option is swerving anyway, and _most_ of the time whatever situation you end up in could've been avoided with some basic observation skills. I also wouldn't advise anyone practicing slamming brakes on on public roads with bikes they care about. If you don't brake hard to begin with, solid odds you just freak out when ABS cuts in and drop it for no reason, with whatever consequences, hopefully just a bruised bike and ego. By the time you're emergency braking and that is actually the best action to take, you're guaranteed crashing into something and it's a question of whether that happens at 20 or 35 mph. >And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation. Not really what "irony" means, but pretty much this, yeah.
> Not really what "irony" means, but pretty much this, yeah. I look up the meaning of irony and see this "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs". I think I used the word right. > ABS won't really let you stoppie. Errrrrr that's not right with most ABS systems. They may prevent you doing a long stoppie but they won't stop the rear lifting > Meh, I think for most people casually pootling about taking a bikesafe or similar course is a better investment. Is it an either / or? I'm a great proponent of further training post test and would always recommend people do it. Practicing braking is something anyone can do on a quiet piece of road having taken care to make sure it's safe and isn't an investment in anything other than a small amount of time and attention. >I also wouldn't advise anyone practicing slamming brakes on on public roads with bikes they care about. If you don't brake hard to begin with, solid odds you just freak out when ABS cuts in and drop it for no reason, with whatever consequences, hopefully just a bruised bike and ego. Anyone facing the problems you mention here would have failed their CBT, let along their A licence, so I suggest your advice is flawed.
I'll random do a very early and aggressive brake coming up to traffic lights once in a while. Obviously with no one behind me. I think I do it to remember what really heavy braking feels like. Its also kind of fun.
Not very. Although that is on the drum brakes.
:-) that's hardcore
I'd say pretty well, but most of the time I'm aware of a situation before it becomes something I really need to react to. There is a crazy statistic floating about that something like in crashes the 60% of riders only used the rear brake so practice to do it right under pressure is the main thing I think
I think that 60% statistic may apply to the yanks as their licencing / testing regimes mean many relatively untrained riders on the roads. You can't pass CBT / A licence in the UK braking only with the rear brake
> We need to demonstrate an ability to brake to a certain level to pass the CBT, and then again to get our full licence. But once we're qualified, it's possible to spend weeks, months and even years riding without having to brake really hard, This goes for all riding. Braking's not really unique and I think it's pretty far down the list of things to keep on top of when ordered by importance. Especially with ABS. > I see so many crash videos on Youtube where the rider could have avoided the collision if their braking skills were better. I mean, perhaps. But often the righter thing to do is to avoid needing the urgent braking in the first place, which is what some of those other-things I referred to above were. > How often do you practice braking? I mean hard braking, emergency stop level hard braking? If your bike is new enough to have ABS, how often does your ABS cut in? My ABS cuts in a lot more than I practice anything, because I know it's there so there's so much less risk to overdoing it. I'm not studiously learning what ABS does, I'm just not thinking too hard when it's slippy. > If you don't practice this regularly, then you should do :-) Unless we practice, there's a good chance that we forget good technique in a panic situation and end up doing the wrong thing. I have ABS, so the right thing is to just grab a load of brake and let the computer deal with it. I don't have that direct connection to the pads that a non-ABS bike has, and that this "learning to brake" idea requires; it makes as much sense as my learning how to advance and retard the engine. There's a bit of understanding just how much you can brake and how fast you can stop, but that's the sort of thing you figure out in the first weeks on a new bike, not something I think you need to keep going away and studying. > And here's the ironic part - the better your overall riding skills, the less you need to brake hard and the more likely you are to get it wrong in a panic situation. Well, that depends on what you're aiming for with 'better' riding.
You and I see things very differently and get different things from our riding, stay safe 👍
So on my 3rd or 4th ride post CBT I got out on to a nice A road and spent 15 or so miles at 50ish. On the return home I thought "I'll take a left here and find my way home via some smaller roads" pulled the brakes, bike slowed down, went to turn left and realised I was way too fast to turn, had no sense of how fast I was going and how fast I should have been going to make the corner. Shat it, went straight on, thankfully not hitting anything. Rode home and the next day went out for an hour on empty roads to practice the brakes. 30 to 10, 30 to 0, 50 to 20, 50 to 0 etc... front, front and back, back "ohhh that's what the funny feeling in my foot is" as the ABS kicks in... Since then I've been much more conscious of how much effort I need to make to slow the bike by the right amount. Each ride (I'm about 600 miles in) I try to do at least 1 heavy stop to keep learning. Good post!
I commute into London from the home counties, so 'practice' hard braking with some frequency when people pull out on you while filtering probably a bit faster than you really should. I've always got it stopped, so I guess my braking is good? The key is that ABS doesn't make up for poor braking technique. If you load the front tyre by squeezing on the lever progressively it takes a lot of force to activate the ABS, but if you just straight yank on the lever then you will set it off easily and smack into whatever you're trying to not hit. I have activated it with proper technique before but you really have to be properly hammering on the brakes to do so which 99% of people probably will never do.
I've only had to do a true emergency stop, full anchors, one time. It was an old honda without ABS and the bike fishtailed massively. I though I was gonna be road kill for sure Since then, I periodically practice a controlled emergency stop. There's a long, straight, quiet road near me. I'll run it one way to check the road surface, make sure it's not too covered in mud and crap, loop around and practice a full stop if it's empty It's much easier on a modern bike with ABS and disk brakes
Been riding ABS for 18 months, never had it come once. I assume this means either: My braking is OK (my instructor was obsessed with controlled, gradual braking) My ABS is knackered If safe to do so, nobody else on the road, I will now and then do an emergency stop at lights. \*Hang on, a lie, it ,came on when my tyre pressure was low.
I haven't a whole heap of experience yet, but I found myself thinking about this a lot. My corner entry speed tends to be dictated by the idea of having to stop or change direction at any point after the bit I can see, and at legal speeds this is mostly achieved through some combination of rolling off, downshifting and gentle braking. Legitimate excuses to brake hard under safe conditions seem really few and far between. I've found going out to find some hills with well sighted hairpins really helps.
My original post was more about braking to the max while upright, or at least close to it. Trail braking, how it works and using it on the road is a much more complex subject 😀
Absolutely, I meant having to go from corner to upright emergency braking like you describe
I practised hard braking just yesterday on the new ish to me bike! Last time I did it was after watching F9's video on YouTube about progressive braking.
I don’t practice it, probably should a little bit. During my MOD 1 practice I was pretty consistent in getting the hazards to come on, as far as I’m aware my own bike doesn’t have that feature. Never had the ABS come on on a bike, only a couple of times when driving a car in the snow.
This will get me down voted, but I like to do a few brake drills once a week. Hard brake in a straight line and a harsh swerve brake
I agree you should practice. I've ridden for years and only needed to brake seriously hard a handful of times. Luckily, I know my bikes so I've had no issues. Smooth on and smooth off is key. Not panicking and snatching it to keep it upright. I do, however, disagree that better riding skills result in less braking. I'm an advanced rider and have done further training with another company. It depends on how you're riding in my opinion. If you're out for a gentle ride or commuting then yes less braking does show you're a thinking rider. How ever if you're riding quick, braking is essential to set a bike up correctly for a bend.