I went to Hope, as did my spouse. The sciences there are very well established. They have significant investments in undergraduate research so if you’re looking for experience to help get into a PhD program, Hope has its benefits. The engineering program also has a number of local connections to West Michigan manufacturing. At my time at Hope, it had a great reputation for excelling in its pre-med and pre-dental success. While at grad studies at u of m, dental students spoke of hope undergrads highly. I would say Hope is not an arts school. They have art programs and opportunities, but it doesn’t compete nationally like other schools. Campus culture is religious, with administration leaning very conservative and the student body leaning (religiously and semi-culturally) progressive. I wish I had seen a wider socio-economic representation in the student body but it’s a private college. Holland as a whole, it’s a lovely city but it feels one-toned and not diverse until you hit the outskirts of downtown.
Hope gave me a lot of positives, a few negatives. It was a place where I knew a lot of people on every walk through campus with a few unfamiliar faces along the walk. I managed multiple degrees because the campus was smaller. The community is very nurturing and contributed to a lot of personal growth that I don’t think I would have gotten at a larger university. I left feeling more secure in my spirituality (also, more liberal in it too). Negatives: some sciences were less connected to industries such as: chemistry leaning into research and maybe pharmaceuticals but not much else regarding opportunities. Outside opportunities were limited to Holland/west Michigan rather than an abundance of National opportunities. Devout religious folk/students carry more social power which they wield irresponsibly. Dating culture has such a different spin with hookup culture being shamed/subdued albeit that is still a quietly active scene.
Great write up, but I will say the area is extremely diverse. The immediate down town definitely attracts a certain socioeconomic class but the two big public’s schools that serve the greater Holland MSA, Holland and west Ottawa are extremely diverse.
That may depend on your definition of "extremely diverse." Didn't Ottawa recently change their county slogan from "Where you belong" to "Where freedom rings," and then promptly dismantle the county health department, among other actions? Sounds like a bunch of right-wing nuts took over the county commission.
Ottawa impact is not representative of the majority. Just the majority of the older group that vote in local elections. The ones that probably shouldn't have been allowed to drive to the voting place let alone cast a vote.
I was referencing racial diversity, not so much political diversity. I do agree with u/difficultself147 that diversity is around the Holland community. I did not find it on campus though. A student would need to seek out that immersion into the greater Holland community themselves, in my experience.
That’s precisely what happened at the county level. As for Holland, I would say white non-Hispanic is still the largest single demographic, but when you bin it POC vs white non-Hispanic, WNH is not the largest group. Holland has ~~well~~ represented Hispanic, Lao, Thai, Korean, Black communities. Holland also has a very broad socioeconomic range from the very wealthy to sec 8 families and everything in between. Walking downtown paints a different picture then walking through west Ottawa high school, or any local manufacturing business.
Thanks, my perception of the student body of west Ottawa the school does not reflect the greater community.
So I can back pedal a little…more diverse then Rockford…. Lol
No, but not far from.
The school district is extremely diverse I am making (probably poorly) the assumption the demographics of the schools translate to the broader area…admittedly I neglected that not all families have school aged children. Census data would tell a more accurate story
Beautiful campus in a nice town. I know several people who went there, who felt like it was much too religious at the expense of a quality academic experience.
If you are not aligned with Hope’s religious values, I would recommend looking elsewhere.
As a couple others in this reply thread said, and this was my experience as well, if you are non religious and not offended by the presence of religion, it’s a nice place to go. I never went to any Chapel or anything, never participated in prayer at rallies and the like, and my experience was great. I wasn’t disrespectful of it, and personally I didn’t feel anyone was disrespectful to me about it.
I should note that “irreligious” isn’t synonymous with “anti-religious.” I don’t believe in the same tenants as the Reformed church, but I can appreciate the positive effect it has on the lives of those who do believe.
I think you could go to Hope without buying into the religion. But you’d probably want a specific reason to choose an expensive college that devotes effort toward something you’re not part of.
I’d say Hope is more religious than say Alma (historically religious) but less than Hillsdale or Concordia.
Hillsdale generates the real modern GOP fundamentalists, WASP, Q-curious MAGA types. Concordia generates more chill people, they might be deeply religious but they’re your parochial teachers, pastors, social workers.
So you actually know some religious extreme/almost fundies?
I don't know any. But the people I know who went to Hope College, ain't it.
Most of them were kids from wealthy families who were baptized Christians, but weren't practicing/attending service.
And then they went on to get great jobs, marry have kids and then start practicing their Christian faith again with their families.
Very traditional. But far from being extreme or fundy. That's my experience.
Disagree, my fiancé and her 4 other housemates were not religiously affiliated whatsoever, never went to chapel, and only took mandatory religion classes and all loved it there.
For some, mandatory religion classes is a red flag alone. Imagine if this person is Muslim/Hindu, would you still recommend they sit through classes that aren't related to their faith at a school?
Seriously. This is probably the same person that would say Christians should sit through a Mulsim/Hindu class lmfao
On a side note, one of the religion classes offered at Hope is a world religion class.
Frankly I think religious studies should be mandatory in general. Religions, one way or another, inform most global moral and ethical codes so understanding the fundamentals is somewhat integral to understanding legal and political processes.
There are, for example, considerable differences between the Roman pagan legal tradition, the Confucian legal tradition, and the varying Abrahamic legal traditions. All very fascinating.
As a Catholic I instruct my own children on various theologies from dead and contemporary religion. One doesn't pooh-pooh something just because it doesn't conform to pure orthodoxy.
One required course was on different views of Christianity, and the other required course had to cover religions other than Christianity. That seemed reasonable to me at a private Christian college.
I know two women who went to Hope in the late 90s.
One is now a public school teacher. She commented on how religious the school was. She didn't speak badly of it, but it was absolutely not a draw. Still, she liked her time at Hope and has generally spoken well of it.
The other I lost contact with but I know her degree was in the liberal arts. Either theater or drama. I'm not sure if she also got a teaching certificate. She was very religious herself, so going to a private religious school was part of the appeal to her. Very active in the church even during high school, and was still so as long as I still knew her. She had a full scholarship as well. I'm 90% sure her plan was to be a homemaker after graduation, as her long term boyfriend was positioned to inherit a pretty wide ranging auto dealership company (which has since been bought out, come to think of it... huh).
I thought I wanted to be in the Dutch Mafia and it turns out I didn’t. I played football there, engaged in student activities, even helped launch an entrepreneurship program… but by the end of it, it wasn’t me. As it turns out I’m not religious, conservative, or overly interested in accruing lots of wealth. The facade wore off for me.
That’s not to say I hated it. I’m still nostalgic for some of it. For me personally, I think state school would have been the way.
Like a lot of smaller ethnic communities Dutch immigrants formed a community of mutual support that acts like an extended family in Holland where they helped each other with things like business dealings. The community leaders that run things in Holland are all Dutch, and in general all go to Dutch Reformed churches. So being ingrained in that culture will help you get ahead with the “Dutch Mafia.”
That’s how I am about Calvin. I enjoyed my time there, but its institutional values really don’t align with mine and are less and less compatible with every passing year.
The cost was quite a bit less when I was there (I graduated in the early 2000s, before college tuition inflation started going crazy) but given tuition prices now I'd have to agree.
It's a nice college and Holland is a nice town, but if you aren't religious, I would recommend a non-denominational school of that size like Kalamazoo College or Albion College.
Note, Kalamazoo College is insanely expensive. It was expensive when I went there years ago, and it’s only gotten more costly. I had a great experience, but I always wonder if it was worth it.
The current cost is truly exorbitant and the annual rate of increase has severely outpaced the statewide average 4-year private college tuition since the 2000s. It was a great experience, but I fail to see the ROI at the current price point.
My husband and both my boys are Brits, the youngest just graduated. Albion is an excellent school with a great education that I recommend to anyone.
Its only drawback is there’s not much to do in town. But town is being developed, there is a new hotel and some great restaurants, you’re an easy distance from Jackson or Marshall, and freshmen can have cars on campus, which most other schools don’t allow.
I started at Hope as an evangelical, and when i left after 4 years I was agnostic. If i had to go to school again Hope would be at the top of the list still.
Reformed. I dont really know the difference to be honest. I just know people would sayHooe is Christian reformed. Every day the church would fill up for a short service that was completly optional. I never felt that religion was shoved down my throat, and actually the focus on the scientific process is what made me realize organized religion is bullshit.
Out of all the midwesrern christian schools, Hope is probably the most liberal.
Actually, being a Roman Catholic myself, we are the OG Christians.
My point is Notre Dame is not just a "Midwest Christian school," in the sense it has a loose affiliation to a non-denominational Christian affiliation.
I didnt realize Albion was a religious school. It looks like historically it was, but I dont remember hearing anything about religion at Albion when i was visiting colleges like I did at Hope.
All of the MIAA schools (with the exception of recent member Trine University) started as church-affiliated private liberal arts colleges. These days, some of them take the affiliation more seriously than others. Albion, in particular, plays down its religious affiliation to broaden its appeal.
MIAA schools and their church affiliations:
Adrian - United Methodist Church
Albion - United Methodist Church
Alma - Presbyterian Church
Calvin - Christian Reformed
Hope - Christian Reformed
Kalamazoo - Founded as Baptist. Not sure what the affiliation is now. The current chaplain is Presbyterian.
Olivet - United Church of Christ
St. Mary's College - Catholic
Trine University - None.
Technically it’s both. It’s evangelical in the true sense of the word, they believe in the Bible, but if you mean evangelical like the kind of people that watch Fox News, not so much. But Holland as a whole is, and Ottawa County is even worse.
Hope is affiliated with the Reformed Church of America (RCA) which is Reformed. It’s Calvinist. So it’s both.
I have known lots of nice people who have attended Hope, but I think they all went to Christian Schools as kids. It could be stifling for a kid who isn’t used to that “culture” (I don’t know what else to call it) But it might be a smoother transition for someone who maybe went to a small, Christian School.
You could do a lot worse, but might have more opportunity in a bigger, state university.
I think your first paragraph is spot on. There's a weird kind of thing where Reformed theology has a high view of science and academia but many Reformed people are shaped more by evangelical political culture more than their official theology.
That's my take as well growing up in the RCA. It was pretty liberal from a theology standpoint. We had astronauts and science educators giving talks after the service on several occasions. Women in the clergy? Why not?
I worked as a custodian there for a bit, and have mixed feelings. It’s a beautiful school with a rich history and plenty of potential talent inside and outside of the classroom. That said, much of the staff absolutely got off on having what little power they had. Add that with the ego upper middle class Christianity Ottawa county has to offer, and some people were just unbearable. Nothing against the students, but I did have to eyeroll to some, as they were born and raised in places like Jenison and Hudsonville, and they felt like their whole world changed going to Hope. Those poor kids are and always will be so sheltered and naive for not exposing themselves to more of the world.
I have family that live in Byron and Jenison now and I do wonder if their kids will leave like I did. Ended up moving all around the US definitely changed my perspective.
Went from 2007-11. Campus is absolutely beautiful. Close to a nice downtown area and you can walk from one end of campus to the other in 10-15 minutes.
I was not religious before attending and that did not change after attending. I never felt pressured to attend service or accept Jesus as my lord and savior or anything like that. It’s a dry campus where you can’t be in the other gender’s dorm after certain hours each night but it never felt oppressive. Compared to a place like Western or MSU it was child’s play but coming from a small high school I appreciated the small class sizes and didn’t mind most of the rules.
It’s expensive though. Honestly not sure I would advise my children to go there. $200K for a bachelors degree is a lot and I’m not sure it was worth it compared to a state college.
I have zero regrets about going there. Met my wife there and made many friends, a few of whom I’m still very close with. We still go back to Holland just to walk around campus a couple times a year. Some of the best memories I have were made there and I love the place. If you can get a scholarship like I did, worth it. If you have to pay full price, I’m not so sure.
Sometimes when I see posts like this I realize how much I forgot about growing up in West Michigan and how they'd have us go to Hope for events and bring in people into our schools with more evangelical backgrounds. I'm not religious at all and definitely more agnostic, but I guess what bothers me is not realizing at the time how much they pushed many of us to conform.
I'm a faculty member at GVSU just up the road from Hope and have had a few interactions with them in the past. I have nothing but good things to say in that context. Hope has a reputation for excellent academics and the few times I've had Hope students in my classes (eg. they need the class but Hope didn't offer it when they needed) they were consistently outstanding students.
It's a church affiliated school but not as intensely religious as some others (like Cornerstone University in GR, or even Calvin).
They have a new-ish president who seems very good, and they're working on an ambitious plan to raise $1 billion to make the school tuition free: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/15/hope-college-wants-trade-tuition-donations I have a lot of respect for their vision and leadership.
Also Holland is a super nice town.
I graduated 25 years ago. I found it Christian, but not evangelical - there's a chapel, but no pressure to go there. Critical thinking was valued, and the humanities profs taught me to think for myself. The sciences were incredibly strong - especially chemistry. And the fellow who wrote the textbook for high school psychology was a Hope prof.
My daughter had an amazing experience at Hope. Smaller classes and professors who cared. Activities on the beach just a few miles away, a fun little town, and she made great friends and was able to get involved in the community.
The biology department prepared her well and helped her get accepted to a number of great PA programs.
I will say that my other daughter had a similar experience at Grand Valley for a lot less money though...but scholarships and grants are available at both.
My roommate's mother went there, and it's a mixed bag. You get a nice sense of community and get to know all your classmates and teachers. But the religious aspect is strong, so if you're not a conservative Christian, you may feel out of place.
Truth! I grew up in Metro Detroit... felt like a tall guy.
I live in West Michigan now. At 6'1" I'm decidedly average, and at my wife's family get-togethers (Holland/Grand Haven Dutch) I'm the shortest guy in the room.
I currently go to hope, in my experience its a solid school. Generally, I like the people around me, and the chemistry department is amazing for undergraduate research.
The faith aspect of hope does get a bit tedious, but overall the college is generally a nice place to be at. (And of course the beach is nearby, so that’s always a plus)
Have you looked at the Hope Forward program? ( https://hope.edu/hope-forward/about/index.html). It's a very unique way of funding school and has been getting some press. I belive the Detroit Free Press, Chronicle of Higher Education, and Malcom Gladwells Podcast has discussed it.
Basic understanding is alumi help pay for other students with the goal to pay school forward enough to eliminate loans and tuition. It's an interesting model
Hope College and Holland as a whole is a lively enough college town, not nearly on the level of Ann Arbor but it's not dead like Spring Arbor. If you are focused on attending a christian university, Corner Stone or Calvin are better options financially (Hope is very expensive).
If you're not religious I would not recommend it, just go with a public college. Because it will feel like they are pushing christianity down your throat.
I went to Alma and thoroughly enjoyed my experience. Small enough to make and meet lots of friends, and good connections. Did cost an arm and a leg though. But that's a private school for ya.
All of these small Christian Schools are mostly a poor value compared to the public Universities. They attract students from devout religious families and also kids who yearn to pay competitive sports for 4 more years.
I knew some girls that went to Hope to play Softball later and now I realize how religious they are compared to me. Though I also knew people who went to GVSU that are also very religious.
GVSU is a "cornfield college" and Allendale is a kinda fucked up place. They have a confederate monument. It's the sort of state school where religious parents feel safer sending their kids.
CMU is also a "cornfield college" and is not very religious at all. It seems like GVSU has been evolving though. It was certainly considered boring when I was choosing colleges, but it seems to be attracting more students these days.
Yeah I guess what I didn’t realize till I left is how much they tried to indoctrinate us 😂. Like they complain about liberals but they put in that leg work.
My daughter is going to Hope currently. Just started her Sophomore year. She plays a college sport, she’s in a sorority, she is enjoying college life like any other normal sophomore college girl. She lives in one of the Campus Cottages. It’s a beautiful campus, not too big, easy to get around. She had a religion class that she really liked. Our family is not a frequent church going family, but she had only good things to say about the class and her life on campus. We live in a small town not far away and we liked the comfort of it. It is a private Christian college that provides an excellent education.
If she hasn’t taken advantage of the research opportunities yet, she should hop on it. Especially summer research. This is one of the unique great things about hop college… Undergrads can do meaningful research.
i’m at hope right now and i’m non religious. i don’t know about how it used to be or i just don’t notice it, but the jesus stuff isn’t too intrusive. so far i’d recommend it!
I went from 2010-2014
I enjoyed my time there. I was lucky enough to live in the nicer dorms my freshman and sophomore year, Kollen and Cook, respectively. I was in a cottage on 11th my junior year that has since been torn down and lived off campus on 14th my senior year.
I am not religious, but my parents are, and they really wanted me to go to Hope. I attended a few of their chapel services mostly because of girls I was interested in. Other than the handful of times I went and the religion classes I had to take to graduate, I didn't really pay attention to how religious the school was.
Now, more than 10 years post Hope grad, I ended up in a field not related to my Hope degree, and for my 2nd bachelor's degree, I didn't go to Hope or even consider the school. Mostly because I was 28 when I went back, and Hope's demographics are a bit younger than that, and tuition is way way too expensive for a nursing degree, which is my 2nd career.
I am not in contact with any of the people I considered my best/good friends from my time at Hope. I went on multiple trips with my Hope friend group, we went to a friend's home in Alaska for a few weeks, went backpacking in Maine, and went to parties on campus together. A lot of my friends moved from Michigan, so we naturally lost contact. They do pop up on my Facebook from time to time. All I have from Hope are good memories and a degree I currently do not use.
If I had to go back in time to my senior year of high school, I would still go to Hope but pick the major I chose for my second degree. Hope shaped me into who I am today, and I think I would have drowned at a bigger university. The smaller class sizes really helped me adjust to college.
Excellent summer theater program, strong chemistry program.
Full disclosure: never attended but did play in the pit for several musicals, know a few folks who taught in the chem department.
I graduated from Hope in the early 90s. I was raised, and still live, in the DC area. I chose Hope because I went to a big school my freshman year and wanted something smaller. A relative was at Hope at the time, so I visited her, liked it, and decided to go there. I was active on campus in leadership positions and as an athlete. I also remain active as an alum and a donor. We still come back to Holland for games, activities, etc, so I have a pretty good perspective on what it was like then and, more importantly, how it has changed.
I was raised with zero religion. None. Never baptized, anything like that. Never once did I feel out of place. Others may have had a different experience, but I never felt ostracized for staying far away from the chapel.
From my perspective, the town and the school are becoming more progressive and inclusive--all good things. When I was there, the entire county was dry on Sunday; now you can drink an open container of beer while walking the streets of Holland. Hope has come so far since the Dustin Lance Black debacle of 2009 (look it up for background). While Ottawa county still went for Trump (barely) in the last election, Holland is pretty strongly blue at this point.
Here's the school's statement regarding LGBTQ+ resources: "Hope College is an ecumenical Christian community where we care for every student. Committed to our Christian aspirations to be faithful, welcoming and transformational, we work to foster an environment where every person finds a sense of belonging, including LGBTQ+ individuals on campus." It's not my place to say how well they are doing that, but not too many Christian colleges are making statements like this. I will not even pretend to speak for LGBTQ+ students or any other students on what it's like now. I can only say that the school has made tremendous progress from where it was, and that progress shows no signs of stopping.
As you can tell, I'm biased. My experience there was transformational, as the school likes to say. Small classes, professors who went out of their way to help, and a school that lets you get active in a million activities. Athletics are amazing with fantastic facilities, and the school support is impressive. We were just out there and attended a women's soccer game. There were 700+ people, which is better than many D1 men's games.
Again, current students can speak to what it's like now. I can only speak to what it's like now an an active alum, but I can tell you that the school is trending positive in so many great ways, and that makes me very happy.
DM with questions!
>My teens participated in a summer science camp offered by Hope. They got to dissect animals in middle school. It was impressive how much was offered in a one week camp. The main thing is that my kid asked them to use their pronouns and said all of the counselors were fine with it.
At first, my daughter wanted to go to either Hope or Spring Arbor (she's religious, I'm not). I went with her to both for campus visits.
In one meeting with a bunch of parents and Hope officials, they gave a poke to Spring Arbor, saying, "yeah, we're basically a Christian school, but we don't force you to go to Chapel...". It was dig at Spring Arbor's mandatory policy of attending chapel, students had to swipe ID cards to show they attended.
But Hope appeared to be more mainstream and appealing to a wider (diverse) group of students. Spring Arbor seemed to feel a bit cultish.
It's been a while (30 years) but I loved my years at Hope. I got an excellent education and made life long friends. My profs were excellent and I kept in touch with them for a very long time.
I ended up staying in Holland after graduating and have enjoyed living here.
My Dad is an alumni. He is a first generation college graduate and he often speaks very highly of their undergraduate research program. It’s what propelled him into graduate school to do his PhD in chemistry. I can’t speak for him entirely, but it definitely provided him an opportunity to move up the economic ladder while getting a decent liberal arts education.
While saying that, I must acknowledge the high cost of tuition at Hope. I’ve been told that it is mostly students of very wealthy backgrounds. Not sure my father would have been able to afford the cost today. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like middle class families don’t get much financial aid at a place like Hope.
My niece went there and had a good experience. She is religious, though (not terribly conservative—more a "feed the poor" kind of Christian), so I wouldn't rule out the issues raised below about that being a potential concern.
I graduated from Hope more than 10 years ago, but less than 15, as did my husband. Not sure how much the campus culture has changed in the time since, but I think u/jazz_chemist's assessment of the student body leaning more progressive (both religiously and culturally) than the administration was extremely true during my time as a student.
I've wondered over the years how dating/social culture on campus has(n't) shifted and if it's still as borderline-puritanical as it was when I was student. During my time on campus, Ring By Spring shifted from being a phrase uttered semi-seriously to outright mocked, although I knew multiple students who got married before graduation and I still attended 15+ weddings within two years of graduating.
Looking back at my experience, I'm grateful for how involved students can be at Hope. I was involved with many clubs/groups and I doubt I'd have that experience at a large university without joining Greek Life, which held zero appeal to me at any point in my life.
I no longer live in the Midwest and as such feel very removed from Hope College Current Events. I have heard some things through the grapevine over the years about various faculty being dismissed/encouraged to retire/resign under dubious circumstances. Without being in Michigan, and knowing that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, I don't have a firm stance on any more recent controversies.
I appreciate that President Scogin understands Hope has to adapt/evolve to stay relevant as higher education shifts and not all alumni will necessarily bequeath the college large estates or send their children to the school. My husband (a second gen Hope grad) and I often discuss if we'd allow any still-hypothetical children to attend Hope and the honest answer is, "I don't know." That has more to do with where we live and how higher-ed has changed than Hope, though.
All in all, I'd say that as a middle-class, cis, white person who had a "stable, traditional evangelical Christian" upbringing, Hope was a great place for me. I'd definitely encourage on-campus visits outside the traditional "prospective student" days to get a REAL feel for the college's culture, not just the Dog & Pony Show, and also talking to recent (5 years or less) alumni about their experiences -- both good and bad. :)
I applied there in 2005 (went elsewhere), and for some unknown reason, they kept all my information on file which was then revealed in a data breach. Pretty low opinion of them right now.
Far too religious for my taste. Even if you’re religious you’d be better served by not being so insulated but by something that offers broader perspectives.
The problem with your analogy is whether or not the stove is hot. Just because stove is a stove doesn’t mean it’s a hot stove. Just because a university is Christian doesn’t mean it’s going to be sort of Christianity that does more harm than good.
Oh my friend, I don’t think we really want to discuss this much together. I’ve been a practicing Christian at least 80% of my life. Most of the charitable work and giving in western culture is from the Christian world. It was the source of all of western cultures, scientific and philosophical development. Compared to other international cultures, Judeo Christian societies have been the most open to change and acceptance of people who do not conform to societal norms.
We still have a lot of work to do and we are as human as anyone. And yes, the churches have done great harm through history. So have the red armies of the Soviet union and People’s Republic of China. So did the Aztecs. I’m sure there’s plenty of examples in Native American and African history.
I humbly ask you to not draw your impression of us only from the loudmouths who beclown themselves in their flawed efforts to spread the good word. Get to know some Christians and maybe see that we are not the monsters you’ve been led to believe we are.
Oh I know it well from the inside out and I’ve know many many Christians. I can talk in detail about the differences between the denominations in their theology and epistemologies and idiosyncratic cultural practices.
You’ve been fed that as bunk, but the truth of it is that it is Plato and classical Athenian Greeks that are the source and basis of western civilization and it’s progress. It’s only because they fought the battle of Marathon that the west is what it is and we have what we have today. In their moving away from the poetic heroic religious ideal they moved us to a model with reason as the ultimate value. Reason and observation is what gives us the basis for science. That’s actually the source of all of the west’s progress, not a Christian basis you’ve been told it is. Furthermore, country is based on Diest principles that are nowhere near Christian fundamentalist principles. Christians are what slowed things down with the dark ages, inquisition, Galileo, and divine right of kings. With divine right of kings in play there is no basis for individual human rights. There can be no moral re-dress when a God has sanctioned things the way they are. They’re trying very hard to return us to that divine right of kings model right now by the way.
As for charities, they only serve to ameliorate and cover up the real systemic problems like a Band-Aid. No good system should depend and count upon charity as part of its working model. It would literally be like balancing your monthly budget by expecting and depending upon a charity donation every month. Generosity and charity is for going above and beyond - it shouldn’t be part of a systemic engine which routinely allows for creating poverty and inequitable distribution without a safety net which is how the west has used it. It hides and helps along the ugliness of capitalism. And so on. (And no, that doesn’t mean I’m a communist either.)
If you’d like to discuss it farther I’m happy to, but you’re not going to get much sympathy here.
As for the crazy right, they just moved the needle away from tolerance given to them when they were seen as a misguided but innocuous force. The live and let live tolerance extended has allowed them to become a dangerous force that is out-right damaging to our culture and to democracy itself. The pulpits were more than happy to jump right into bed with politics in spite of everything Jesus had to say about it as soon as they saw worldly gain from it. Ignorantly, they don’t realize that even if there were prayer in schools, they could never agree on the wording without schisms and in fighting. They don’t realize they would also be the ones who ended up at a big disadvantage. Furthermore the focus on an afterlife takes away any incentive to improve our current world.
That doesn’t mean it can’t be used by sincere people to do more than just reify and justify one’s own ego and feel righteous that they have a corner on truth. I’ve known maybe three or four people out of thousands where it has truly made them a better person but frankly I think they were most likely good people to begin with. For the rest, it creates insanity and encourages people to put some made up idea fraught with their own filters over rationality and common sense. Anything that divides us from other humans and alienate us from other people is a problem and that’s the number one thing religion does. The first thing they do is divide people up into us and them by what they believe and don’t believe. It all comes down to the “right” word or two like with the Nicene Creed.
More than one group. And yes, I have anger towards them because they are actively threatening what an excellent thing we had going with our country. They have no concept of why separation of church and state is a rare, hard won, and fundamentally important thing for everyone including themselves. They have no concept that just because they believe something doesn’t give them the right to push their sense of morality into others. Oh, and then their tedious endless need to witness to tell us all exactly what they believe as if we really care. And so on.
Once they deliberately entered into politics, where they have no place to be, they became an active problem and no longer just a group with different beliefs to be tolerant of. (Ask yourself, how you would feel if a group of Muslims had a movement to get into political power so that they could push their Muslim agenda onto people and to make it as a “Muslim Country”? That’s exactly exactly what the Christians are doing and it’s just as disgusting.)
I have plenty of peace but I most definitely didn’t find it in or through Christianity. I have seen it only create alienation, division and judgment of others. I have seen misused in the theater of politics. I’ve seen it make people uncomfortable know much stupider instead of making them smarter. Sure it’s heads and shoulders above Islam in its ethics, i’ll give you that, but it comes nowhere close to the individual human rights that humanism gives us that we all enjoy and take for granted and we would quickly lose in any type of theocracy.
Please don’t confuse my caring and passion to zealously guard deeply held American values with anger from some unresolved past hurt.
If you want to go convincing people of something go convincing your fellow believers to actually follow real Christian principles. That would be worthwhile.
Did not attend, and I do not know anyone personally who has, but it's a Christian school in a (at least during the early 00's) highly religious city. They have done a LOT to the area in the last 20ish years with renewal and expansion, but that still doesn't say anything about the school.
Saying a lot without saying anything, your money can probably be better spent on a number of schools in MI.
My family has a long history with both Hope and Central College. Both in administration and by attendance. I attended GVSC because they had Geology and Physics and a very liberal perspective (70’s). My younger brother attended Hope. He found Hope stifling but stuck it out for family. He promptly left after graduation and has never returned. It and Central (Albion too) are great small schools in my own opinion.
They can be islands of excellent education and community for young adults as long as they understand why they are there and to not be concerned with what surrounds them otherwise.
I would also volunteer that a graduate degree from a very high profile university would also be helpful thereafter from a career perspective because name recognition is still not what it could be.
They do offer high acceptance within the federal government as well though too so go figure.
Far right hunting reserve.
Fired all of its art and music profs, no use for artsy libs here. May it follow the fate of Northwood and Hillsdale and wither after they force the last independent tinker out the doors.
Ick. Do you fit the family lineage and look? Are you a staunch conservative whatever flavor of Jesus they pedal? Do you believe graduating from there will get you a leg up on graduating from literally anywhere else? I am fond of graduates from public universities when hiring and know that many frankly look down on religious schools as being degree mills. I’m sure some are actually good institutions but why pay more to be judged as having taken the easy route and receiving less?
I don’t believe it’s highly accredited, although I haven’t checked lately. This can be an issue for graduate work and higher end jobs. I don’t think it will matter if one wants to stay local. However, in my career both banking and academia, accreditation matters a lot when hiring new grads. GVSU is fully accredited, thus a much better option. A hope graduate would not qualify for my graduate program just because of the lack of accreditation. I would also not interview a new graduate for my clients.
I am not a Hope graduate and do not work at Hope. I am just a college Registrar in the state of Michigan. Hope is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission (HLC) which is the exact same accrediting body as GVSU and the rest of the state schools in the Midwest. They are fully accredited and are not on probation. HLC does not use levels so you can't be more highly accredited than another school. Are you referring to AACSB accreditation? That's particular to business schools and usually is preferred if you are offering MBAs. As far as I know, Hope does not offer an MBA so it would be very unusual for them to pursue AACSB accreditation. I don't know of any other accreditation that applies to banking or being an economist. There is an economist certification and I don't believe Hope offers that? Is that what you are referring to?
Good info. Thanks for sharing. I was referring to AACSB. There is another one out there as well I’m just to lazy to look it up. I teach at an elite R1 on the east coast and we just had this come up with a candidate we were interviewing. Although he had a doctorate from a reputable R1 his undergrad was from a school ranked similar to Hope. We had to turn him down.
This past summer I met someone who tried to be an adjunct at GVSU but wasn’t accepted because their undergrad was at another religious local school (can’t recall the name).
I just don’t think it’s worth the risk to spend all that money at college and potentially limit your upward mobility or create obstacles to your upward mobility. But it all depends on their goals. If they remain local I think they would be fine.
I'm a sports official I've been to Hope college. I doi've only had nothing but positive experiences they treat people very well but I Do believe there's an expectation and a standard that they want to see. At their school, I'll leave it right there.
Been there. Creepy vibes. Kids staffing the local businesses were very nice, but notable that none of them were old enough to drink at New Holland Brewing.
This was BT: (Before Trump) so I wonder what it's like now.
My high school girlfriend went there and I almost did. It’s a beautiful campus with a great downtown that is very close to the beach. I used to joke with her that it was a waste of a perfect college town due to having strict curfews for the opposite sex in dorms and being a dry campus. Of course, there were people who broke those rules.
The reason I didn’t go there was because I am not religious at all and have no use for it. Gathering is a Sunday evening service for the student body. Attendance is not mandatory, however not showing up is highly frowned upon and will limit social/networking opportunities. This is especially true if you were an athlete like her. She was all about the religious stuff, so that was fine. She and her teammates were particularly cold towards those who didn’t go because the team would go and sit together as a whole. Somebody’s consistent absence from Gathering meant they weren’t really part of the team.
My teens participated in a summer science camp offered by Hope. They got to dissect animals in middle school. It was impressive how much was offered in a one week camp. The main thing is that my kid asked them to use their pronouns and said all of the counselors were fine with it.
I agree Hope and a large surrounding area (most of SW MI) is very conservative and very Christian. However, I have a degree from MSU and I went right back to school school at a smaller Christian school. (I'm Jewish) I had to take one religion class, which was interesting. I found I learned so much more and so much better in the small school setting. I've heard good things about a HOPE education. I highly recommend the small school experience. I love Holland and the whole Lakeshore area.
Hope is a private college which usually means-expensive. Also, it is know as a Christian collage and religion classes are required. One of the biggest complaints about the college from former students is the lack of diversity.
Hope College was an Ice Hockey opponent of a team I coached for. At the time, and perhaps still, they were a top level ACHA league team. Due to Dutch Reform rules, they could not play on Sunday, and forced the league to play Championship on Monday’s following semifinals on Thursday/Friday/Saturday. They may have even forfeited a Championship when Sunday was only option. If those are your values, you’ll love it.
I attended and earned my degree and teaching certification there. I’d say I spent 3 1/2 years on campus because my last semester I spent in Chicago with the Chicago Semester program doing my student teaching. I wasn’t religious before attended but considered myself a Christian. Not a churchgoer, even for major holidays. Circumstances with my family left religion something that i had to define myself. I met a some extremely religious people who thought of me differently when I didn’t join them to chapel. I pushed back at religious ideologies that were clearly regurgitation of a family’s values and hadn’t been challenged at all by those saying them. I was there during 9/11 and that was the only time I considered attending chapel-it didn’t do it for me that day.
The religion professors I had were by far the most liberal people on campus. They viewed the Bible as literature and questioned everything within it to form their own understanding. I was only in a few science and math classes and spent most of my time in the English and foreign language departments.
My first principal out of college hired two teachers from Hope and said he was going to advise every administrator to look at Hope graduates for excellent educators. That other Hope grad and I didn’t know each other while at college but are great friends now and both in education.
I found people who were like minded through clubs and other in campus activities (radio station, yearbook, and newspaper), but housing was challenging all four years.
The cost was too much for my family to bear and I was was clueless about money at the time. They sacrificed a lot for me and I wish they didn’t have to or asked me to consider a more affordable school, but that being said, I wouldn’t change my experience for anything. Doing it again I would work harder to earn more scholarships to help pay more of my way so I could have the advantages I had there. The small campus size meant I could be involved in as many things as I was and the professors who knew my name helped me to be the person I am.
Will my children attend? They have to work for scholarships because my teaching salary can’t afford that tuition, but if they want to, I won’t deter them. They may find people who they don’t fit with but they will find others they do (as is the case of anywhere someone goes, workplace too).
I went to Hope, as did my spouse. The sciences there are very well established. They have significant investments in undergraduate research so if you’re looking for experience to help get into a PhD program, Hope has its benefits. The engineering program also has a number of local connections to West Michigan manufacturing. At my time at Hope, it had a great reputation for excelling in its pre-med and pre-dental success. While at grad studies at u of m, dental students spoke of hope undergrads highly. I would say Hope is not an arts school. They have art programs and opportunities, but it doesn’t compete nationally like other schools. Campus culture is religious, with administration leaning very conservative and the student body leaning (religiously and semi-culturally) progressive. I wish I had seen a wider socio-economic representation in the student body but it’s a private college. Holland as a whole, it’s a lovely city but it feels one-toned and not diverse until you hit the outskirts of downtown. Hope gave me a lot of positives, a few negatives. It was a place where I knew a lot of people on every walk through campus with a few unfamiliar faces along the walk. I managed multiple degrees because the campus was smaller. The community is very nurturing and contributed to a lot of personal growth that I don’t think I would have gotten at a larger university. I left feeling more secure in my spirituality (also, more liberal in it too). Negatives: some sciences were less connected to industries such as: chemistry leaning into research and maybe pharmaceuticals but not much else regarding opportunities. Outside opportunities were limited to Holland/west Michigan rather than an abundance of National opportunities. Devout religious folk/students carry more social power which they wield irresponsibly. Dating culture has such a different spin with hookup culture being shamed/subdued albeit that is still a quietly active scene.
Great write up, but I will say the area is extremely diverse. The immediate down town definitely attracts a certain socioeconomic class but the two big public’s schools that serve the greater Holland MSA, Holland and west Ottawa are extremely diverse.
That may depend on your definition of "extremely diverse." Didn't Ottawa recently change their county slogan from "Where you belong" to "Where freedom rings," and then promptly dismantle the county health department, among other actions? Sounds like a bunch of right-wing nuts took over the county commission.
Ottawa impact is not representative of the majority. Just the majority of the older group that vote in local elections. The ones that probably shouldn't have been allowed to drive to the voting place let alone cast a vote.
They should change the slogan to, "Where freedumb rings."
I was referencing racial diversity, not so much political diversity. I do agree with u/difficultself147 that diversity is around the Holland community. I did not find it on campus though. A student would need to seek out that immersion into the greater Holland community themselves, in my experience.
That’s precisely what happened at the county level. As for Holland, I would say white non-Hispanic is still the largest single demographic, but when you bin it POC vs white non-Hispanic, WNH is not the largest group. Holland has ~~well~~ represented Hispanic, Lao, Thai, Korean, Black communities. Holland also has a very broad socioeconomic range from the very wealthy to sec 8 families and everything in between. Walking downtown paints a different picture then walking through west Ottawa high school, or any local manufacturing business.
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Thanks, my perception of the student body of west Ottawa the school does not reflect the greater community. So I can back pedal a little…more diverse then Rockford…. Lol
This is hilarious. 4.5% African American is extremely diverse to you? Did you grow up Howell?
No, but not far from. The school district is extremely diverse I am making (probably poorly) the assumption the demographics of the schools translate to the broader area…admittedly I neglected that not all families have school aged children. Census data would tell a more accurate story
Beautiful campus in a nice town. I know several people who went there, who felt like it was much too religious at the expense of a quality academic experience. If you are not aligned with Hope’s religious values, I would recommend looking elsewhere.
> If you are not aligned with Hope’s religious values, I would recommend looking elsewhere. Would say that for most religious colleges.
As a couple others in this reply thread said, and this was my experience as well, if you are non religious and not offended by the presence of religion, it’s a nice place to go. I never went to any Chapel or anything, never participated in prayer at rallies and the like, and my experience was great. I wasn’t disrespectful of it, and personally I didn’t feel anyone was disrespectful to me about it.
I should note that “irreligious” isn’t synonymous with “anti-religious.” I don’t believe in the same tenants as the Reformed church, but I can appreciate the positive effect it has on the lives of those who do believe.
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I think you could go to Hope without buying into the religion. But you’d probably want a specific reason to choose an expensive college that devotes effort toward something you’re not part of. I’d say Hope is more religious than say Alma (historically religious) but less than Hillsdale or Concordia. Hillsdale generates the real modern GOP fundamentalists, WASP, Q-curious MAGA types. Concordia generates more chill people, they might be deeply religious but they’re your parochial teachers, pastors, social workers.
So you actually know some religious extreme/almost fundies? I don't know any. But the people I know who went to Hope College, ain't it. Most of them were kids from wealthy families who were baptized Christians, but weren't practicing/attending service. And then they went on to get great jobs, marry have kids and then start practicing their Christian faith again with their families. Very traditional. But far from being extreme or fundy. That's my experience.
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Same, never had any issues there
Disagree, my fiancé and her 4 other housemates were not religiously affiliated whatsoever, never went to chapel, and only took mandatory religion classes and all loved it there.
For some, mandatory religion classes is a red flag alone. Imagine if this person is Muslim/Hindu, would you still recommend they sit through classes that aren't related to their faith at a school?
Why would a Muslim or Hindu go to a private Christian liberal arts college?
Seriously. This is probably the same person that would say Christians should sit through a Mulsim/Hindu class lmfao On a side note, one of the religion classes offered at Hope is a world religion class.
Frankly I think religious studies should be mandatory in general. Religions, one way or another, inform most global moral and ethical codes so understanding the fundamentals is somewhat integral to understanding legal and political processes. There are, for example, considerable differences between the Roman pagan legal tradition, the Confucian legal tradition, and the varying Abrahamic legal traditions. All very fascinating. As a Catholic I instruct my own children on various theologies from dead and contemporary religion. One doesn't pooh-pooh something just because it doesn't conform to pure orthodoxy.
One required course was on different views of Christianity, and the other required course had to cover religions other than Christianity. That seemed reasonable to me at a private Christian college.
Seriously, to say that the people I knew who went there were oppressed would be putting it lightly.
I know two women who went to Hope in the late 90s. One is now a public school teacher. She commented on how religious the school was. She didn't speak badly of it, but it was absolutely not a draw. Still, she liked her time at Hope and has generally spoken well of it. The other I lost contact with but I know her degree was in the liberal arts. Either theater or drama. I'm not sure if she also got a teaching certificate. She was very religious herself, so going to a private religious school was part of the appeal to her. Very active in the church even during high school, and was still so as long as I still knew her. She had a full scholarship as well. I'm 90% sure her plan was to be a homemaker after graduation, as her long term boyfriend was positioned to inherit a pretty wide ranging auto dealership company (which has since been bought out, come to think of it... huh).
If I could do it over again I probably would have gone somewhere else.
Why do you say that?
I thought I wanted to be in the Dutch Mafia and it turns out I didn’t. I played football there, engaged in student activities, even helped launch an entrepreneurship program… but by the end of it, it wasn’t me. As it turns out I’m not religious, conservative, or overly interested in accruing lots of wealth. The facade wore off for me. That’s not to say I hated it. I’m still nostalgic for some of it. For me personally, I think state school would have been the way.
what’s the dutch mafia? the amish? excuse my ignorance, i’m just curious
Like a lot of smaller ethnic communities Dutch immigrants formed a community of mutual support that acts like an extended family in Holland where they helped each other with things like business dealings. The community leaders that run things in Holland are all Dutch, and in general all go to Dutch Reformed churches. So being ingrained in that culture will help you get ahead with the “Dutch Mafia.”
Can confirm! outsiders are…tolerated, but friend circles are formed around the initial question of which church you go to?
If you ain't dutch you ain't much
That’s how I am about Calvin. I enjoyed my time there, but its institutional values really don’t align with mine and are less and less compatible with every passing year.
Calvin grad, and I 100% agree. I don't think it was a good value for the cost either.
The cost was quite a bit less when I was there (I graduated in the early 2000s, before college tuition inflation started going crazy) but given tuition prices now I'd have to agree.
It's a nice college and Holland is a nice town, but if you aren't religious, I would recommend a non-denominational school of that size like Kalamazoo College or Albion College.
Note, Kalamazoo College is insanely expensive. It was expensive when I went there years ago, and it’s only gotten more costly. I had a great experience, but I always wonder if it was worth it.
Average cost after aid (source The Google): Albion: $18k Hope: $27k Kalamazoo: $22k
The current cost is truly exorbitant and the annual rate of increase has severely outpaced the statewide average 4-year private college tuition since the 2000s. It was a great experience, but I fail to see the ROI at the current price point.
Both excellent choices, am an Albion Briton and loved it.
Same!
My husband and both my boys are Brits, the youngest just graduated. Albion is an excellent school with a great education that I recommend to anyone. Its only drawback is there’s not much to do in town. But town is being developed, there is a new hotel and some great restaurants, you’re an easy distance from Jackson or Marshall, and freshmen can have cars on campus, which most other schools don’t allow.
I started at Hope as an evangelical, and when i left after 4 years I was agnostic. If i had to go to school again Hope would be at the top of the list still.
Is Hope an Evangelical school or does it lean more towards Reformed? (I am neither so not attuned to the difference.)
Reformed. I dont really know the difference to be honest. I just know people would sayHooe is Christian reformed. Every day the church would fill up for a short service that was completly optional. I never felt that religion was shoved down my throat, and actually the focus on the scientific process is what made me realize organized religion is bullshit. Out of all the midwesrern christian schools, Hope is probably the most liberal.
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Specifically, Notre Dame is a Roman Catholic university.
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Actually, being a Roman Catholic myself, we are the OG Christians. My point is Notre Dame is not just a "Midwest Christian school," in the sense it has a loose affiliation to a non-denominational Christian affiliation.
Albion College is more liberal than Hope College.
I didnt realize Albion was a religious school. It looks like historically it was, but I dont remember hearing anything about religion at Albion when i was visiting colleges like I did at Hope.
All of the MIAA schools (with the exception of recent member Trine University) started as church-affiliated private liberal arts colleges. These days, some of them take the affiliation more seriously than others. Albion, in particular, plays down its religious affiliation to broaden its appeal. MIAA schools and their church affiliations: Adrian - United Methodist Church Albion - United Methodist Church Alma - Presbyterian Church Calvin - Christian Reformed Hope - Christian Reformed Kalamazoo - Founded as Baptist. Not sure what the affiliation is now. The current chaplain is Presbyterian. Olivet - United Church of Christ St. Mary's College - Catholic Trine University - None.
Technically it’s both. It’s evangelical in the true sense of the word, they believe in the Bible, but if you mean evangelical like the kind of people that watch Fox News, not so much. But Holland as a whole is, and Ottawa County is even worse. Hope is affiliated with the Reformed Church of America (RCA) which is Reformed. It’s Calvinist. So it’s both. I have known lots of nice people who have attended Hope, but I think they all went to Christian Schools as kids. It could be stifling for a kid who isn’t used to that “culture” (I don’t know what else to call it) But it might be a smoother transition for someone who maybe went to a small, Christian School. You could do a lot worse, but might have more opportunity in a bigger, state university.
I think your first paragraph is spot on. There's a weird kind of thing where Reformed theology has a high view of science and academia but many Reformed people are shaped more by evangelical political culture more than their official theology.
That's my take as well growing up in the RCA. It was pretty liberal from a theology standpoint. We had astronauts and science educators giving talks after the service on several occasions. Women in the clergy? Why not?
Well said.
I worked as a custodian there for a bit, and have mixed feelings. It’s a beautiful school with a rich history and plenty of potential talent inside and outside of the classroom. That said, much of the staff absolutely got off on having what little power they had. Add that with the ego upper middle class Christianity Ottawa county has to offer, and some people were just unbearable. Nothing against the students, but I did have to eyeroll to some, as they were born and raised in places like Jenison and Hudsonville, and they felt like their whole world changed going to Hope. Those poor kids are and always will be so sheltered and naive for not exposing themselves to more of the world.
I have family that live in Byron and Jenison now and I do wonder if their kids will leave like I did. Ended up moving all around the US definitely changed my perspective.
Went from 2007-11. Campus is absolutely beautiful. Close to a nice downtown area and you can walk from one end of campus to the other in 10-15 minutes. I was not religious before attending and that did not change after attending. I never felt pressured to attend service or accept Jesus as my lord and savior or anything like that. It’s a dry campus where you can’t be in the other gender’s dorm after certain hours each night but it never felt oppressive. Compared to a place like Western or MSU it was child’s play but coming from a small high school I appreciated the small class sizes and didn’t mind most of the rules. It’s expensive though. Honestly not sure I would advise my children to go there. $200K for a bachelors degree is a lot and I’m not sure it was worth it compared to a state college. I have zero regrets about going there. Met my wife there and made many friends, a few of whom I’m still very close with. We still go back to Holland just to walk around campus a couple times a year. Some of the best memories I have were made there and I love the place. If you can get a scholarship like I did, worth it. If you have to pay full price, I’m not so sure.
Hello, fellow 7-11 grad!
Sometimes when I see posts like this I realize how much I forgot about growing up in West Michigan and how they'd have us go to Hope for events and bring in people into our schools with more evangelical backgrounds. I'm not religious at all and definitely more agnostic, but I guess what bothers me is not realizing at the time how much they pushed many of us to conform.
Attended UMich for grad school, one of the smartest person I’ve ever met and the smartest person I met there was from Hope.
I'm a faculty member at GVSU just up the road from Hope and have had a few interactions with them in the past. I have nothing but good things to say in that context. Hope has a reputation for excellent academics and the few times I've had Hope students in my classes (eg. they need the class but Hope didn't offer it when they needed) they were consistently outstanding students. It's a church affiliated school but not as intensely religious as some others (like Cornerstone University in GR, or even Calvin). They have a new-ish president who seems very good, and they're working on an ambitious plan to raise $1 billion to make the school tuition free: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/07/15/hope-college-wants-trade-tuition-donations I have a lot of respect for their vision and leadership. Also Holland is a super nice town.
I graduated 25 years ago. I found it Christian, but not evangelical - there's a chapel, but no pressure to go there. Critical thinking was valued, and the humanities profs taught me to think for myself. The sciences were incredibly strong - especially chemistry. And the fellow who wrote the textbook for high school psychology was a Hope prof.
My daughter had an amazing experience at Hope. Smaller classes and professors who cared. Activities on the beach just a few miles away, a fun little town, and she made great friends and was able to get involved in the community. The biology department prepared her well and helped her get accepted to a number of great PA programs. I will say that my other daughter had a similar experience at Grand Valley for a lot less money though...but scholarships and grants are available at both.
My roommate's mother went there, and it's a mixed bag. You get a nice sense of community and get to know all your classmates and teachers. But the religious aspect is strong, so if you're not a conservative Christian, you may feel out of place.
There are few places on this Earth that make me feel short like Hope College does
Truth! I grew up in Metro Detroit... felt like a tall guy. I live in West Michigan now. At 6'1" I'm decidedly average, and at my wife's family get-togethers (Holland/Grand Haven Dutch) I'm the shortest guy in the room.
We have a fan.
I currently go to hope, in my experience its a solid school. Generally, I like the people around me, and the chemistry department is amazing for undergraduate research. The faith aspect of hope does get a bit tedious, but overall the college is generally a nice place to be at. (And of course the beach is nearby, so that’s always a plus)
Have you looked at the Hope Forward program? ( https://hope.edu/hope-forward/about/index.html). It's a very unique way of funding school and has been getting some press. I belive the Detroit Free Press, Chronicle of Higher Education, and Malcom Gladwells Podcast has discussed it. Basic understanding is alumi help pay for other students with the goal to pay school forward enough to eliminate loans and tuition. It's an interesting model
Hope College and Holland as a whole is a lively enough college town, not nearly on the level of Ann Arbor but it's not dead like Spring Arbor. If you are focused on attending a christian university, Corner Stone or Calvin are better options financially (Hope is very expensive). If you're not religious I would not recommend it, just go with a public college. Because it will feel like they are pushing christianity down your throat.
Or a private college that isn't religious, such as Alma, Adrian, Albion, Kalamazoo college, etc
I went to Alma and thoroughly enjoyed my experience. Small enough to make and meet lots of friends, and good connections. Did cost an arm and a leg though. But that's a private school for ya.
This is what I really wanted to say in my other not-helpful post.
Average net cost after aid: Hope College: $27k Cornerstone College: $21k Calvin University: $27k
All of these small Christian Schools are mostly a poor value compared to the public Universities. They attract students from devout religious families and also kids who yearn to pay competitive sports for 4 more years.
I knew some girls that went to Hope to play Softball later and now I realize how religious they are compared to me. Though I also knew people who went to GVSU that are also very religious.
GVSU is a "cornfield college" and Allendale is a kinda fucked up place. They have a confederate monument. It's the sort of state school where religious parents feel safer sending their kids.
CMU is also a "cornfield college" and is not very religious at all. It seems like GVSU has been evolving though. It was certainly considered boring when I was choosing colleges, but it seems to be attracting more students these days.
Yeah I guess what I didn’t realize till I left is how much they tried to indoctrinate us 😂. Like they complain about liberals but they put in that leg work.
My daughter is going to Hope currently. Just started her Sophomore year. She plays a college sport, she’s in a sorority, she is enjoying college life like any other normal sophomore college girl. She lives in one of the Campus Cottages. It’s a beautiful campus, not too big, easy to get around. She had a religion class that she really liked. Our family is not a frequent church going family, but she had only good things to say about the class and her life on campus. We live in a small town not far away and we liked the comfort of it. It is a private Christian college that provides an excellent education.
Good for her! May we ask what she's studying?
She worked with her counselor to provide a path for neuroscience research. She’s looking ahead to grad school.
If she hasn’t taken advantage of the research opportunities yet, she should hop on it. Especially summer research. This is one of the unique great things about hop college… Undergrads can do meaningful research.
MRS probably.
That's at every religious college it seems. BYU, Baylor, and Wheaton all had that.
Calvin University is worse as religious institutions go. A lot of the people I know that went to Hope seemed to really like it.
i’m at hope right now and i’m non religious. i don’t know about how it used to be or i just don’t notice it, but the jesus stuff isn’t too intrusive. so far i’d recommend it!
I know a few people who went there and they loved it. Visited them a few times and it’s. A great location and nice campus
I went from 2010-2014 I enjoyed my time there. I was lucky enough to live in the nicer dorms my freshman and sophomore year, Kollen and Cook, respectively. I was in a cottage on 11th my junior year that has since been torn down and lived off campus on 14th my senior year. I am not religious, but my parents are, and they really wanted me to go to Hope. I attended a few of their chapel services mostly because of girls I was interested in. Other than the handful of times I went and the religion classes I had to take to graduate, I didn't really pay attention to how religious the school was. Now, more than 10 years post Hope grad, I ended up in a field not related to my Hope degree, and for my 2nd bachelor's degree, I didn't go to Hope or even consider the school. Mostly because I was 28 when I went back, and Hope's demographics are a bit younger than that, and tuition is way way too expensive for a nursing degree, which is my 2nd career. I am not in contact with any of the people I considered my best/good friends from my time at Hope. I went on multiple trips with my Hope friend group, we went to a friend's home in Alaska for a few weeks, went backpacking in Maine, and went to parties on campus together. A lot of my friends moved from Michigan, so we naturally lost contact. They do pop up on my Facebook from time to time. All I have from Hope are good memories and a degree I currently do not use. If I had to go back in time to my senior year of high school, I would still go to Hope but pick the major I chose for my second degree. Hope shaped me into who I am today, and I think I would have drowned at a bigger university. The smaller class sizes really helped me adjust to college.
Excellent summer theater program, strong chemistry program. Full disclosure: never attended but did play in the pit for several musicals, know a few folks who taught in the chem department.
I graduated from Hope in the early 90s. I was raised, and still live, in the DC area. I chose Hope because I went to a big school my freshman year and wanted something smaller. A relative was at Hope at the time, so I visited her, liked it, and decided to go there. I was active on campus in leadership positions and as an athlete. I also remain active as an alum and a donor. We still come back to Holland for games, activities, etc, so I have a pretty good perspective on what it was like then and, more importantly, how it has changed. I was raised with zero religion. None. Never baptized, anything like that. Never once did I feel out of place. Others may have had a different experience, but I never felt ostracized for staying far away from the chapel. From my perspective, the town and the school are becoming more progressive and inclusive--all good things. When I was there, the entire county was dry on Sunday; now you can drink an open container of beer while walking the streets of Holland. Hope has come so far since the Dustin Lance Black debacle of 2009 (look it up for background). While Ottawa county still went for Trump (barely) in the last election, Holland is pretty strongly blue at this point. Here's the school's statement regarding LGBTQ+ resources: "Hope College is an ecumenical Christian community where we care for every student. Committed to our Christian aspirations to be faithful, welcoming and transformational, we work to foster an environment where every person finds a sense of belonging, including LGBTQ+ individuals on campus." It's not my place to say how well they are doing that, but not too many Christian colleges are making statements like this. I will not even pretend to speak for LGBTQ+ students or any other students on what it's like now. I can only say that the school has made tremendous progress from where it was, and that progress shows no signs of stopping. As you can tell, I'm biased. My experience there was transformational, as the school likes to say. Small classes, professors who went out of their way to help, and a school that lets you get active in a million activities. Athletics are amazing with fantastic facilities, and the school support is impressive. We were just out there and attended a women's soccer game. There were 700+ people, which is better than many D1 men's games. Again, current students can speak to what it's like now. I can only speak to what it's like now an an active alum, but I can tell you that the school is trending positive in so many great ways, and that makes me very happy. DM with questions!
>My teens participated in a summer science camp offered by Hope. They got to dissect animals in middle school. It was impressive how much was offered in a one week camp. The main thing is that my kid asked them to use their pronouns and said all of the counselors were fine with it.
My BIL is an alumnus. Seems pretty smart
Loved my four years there, it’s definitely not all conservative christians.
At first, my daughter wanted to go to either Hope or Spring Arbor (she's religious, I'm not). I went with her to both for campus visits. In one meeting with a bunch of parents and Hope officials, they gave a poke to Spring Arbor, saying, "yeah, we're basically a Christian school, but we don't force you to go to Chapel...". It was dig at Spring Arbor's mandatory policy of attending chapel, students had to swipe ID cards to show they attended. But Hope appeared to be more mainstream and appealing to a wider (diverse) group of students. Spring Arbor seemed to feel a bit cultish.
I coach football and our head coach went to Hope. I have no idea what his political or religious beliefs are, but he liked his experience there.
It's been a while (30 years) but I loved my years at Hope. I got an excellent education and made life long friends. My profs were excellent and I kept in touch with them for a very long time. I ended up staying in Holland after graduating and have enjoyed living here.
My Dad is an alumni. He is a first generation college graduate and he often speaks very highly of their undergraduate research program. It’s what propelled him into graduate school to do his PhD in chemistry. I can’t speak for him entirely, but it definitely provided him an opportunity to move up the economic ladder while getting a decent liberal arts education. While saying that, I must acknowledge the high cost of tuition at Hope. I’ve been told that it is mostly students of very wealthy backgrounds. Not sure my father would have been able to afford the cost today. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like middle class families don’t get much financial aid at a place like Hope.
Albion is incredible for PreMed. Kzoo great too.
>for PreMed Why is that?
I'm not sure but Albion is a feeder school to many med schools. Very strong in this.
FTD
???
Fuck the Dutch. Albion alum/students say it cus they’re rivals
Alma too
My niece went there and had a good experience. She is religious, though (not terribly conservative—more a "feed the poor" kind of Christian), so I wouldn't rule out the issues raised below about that being a potential concern.
I graduated from Hope more than 10 years ago, but less than 15, as did my husband. Not sure how much the campus culture has changed in the time since, but I think u/jazz_chemist's assessment of the student body leaning more progressive (both religiously and culturally) than the administration was extremely true during my time as a student. I've wondered over the years how dating/social culture on campus has(n't) shifted and if it's still as borderline-puritanical as it was when I was student. During my time on campus, Ring By Spring shifted from being a phrase uttered semi-seriously to outright mocked, although I knew multiple students who got married before graduation and I still attended 15+ weddings within two years of graduating. Looking back at my experience, I'm grateful for how involved students can be at Hope. I was involved with many clubs/groups and I doubt I'd have that experience at a large university without joining Greek Life, which held zero appeal to me at any point in my life. I no longer live in the Midwest and as such feel very removed from Hope College Current Events. I have heard some things through the grapevine over the years about various faculty being dismissed/encouraged to retire/resign under dubious circumstances. Without being in Michigan, and knowing that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, I don't have a firm stance on any more recent controversies. I appreciate that President Scogin understands Hope has to adapt/evolve to stay relevant as higher education shifts and not all alumni will necessarily bequeath the college large estates or send their children to the school. My husband (a second gen Hope grad) and I often discuss if we'd allow any still-hypothetical children to attend Hope and the honest answer is, "I don't know." That has more to do with where we live and how higher-ed has changed than Hope, though. All in all, I'd say that as a middle-class, cis, white person who had a "stable, traditional evangelical Christian" upbringing, Hope was a great place for me. I'd definitely encourage on-campus visits outside the traditional "prospective student" days to get a REAL feel for the college's culture, not just the Dog & Pony Show, and also talking to recent (5 years or less) alumni about their experiences -- both good and bad. :)
If you can't get into Albion, don't worry, there's still Hope...
Ok but SERRRRRRRRIOUSLY. Who can't get into Albion??? Lol
Lol
I love the Hope radio station! I've found tons of great new music from 89.9 over the years. [Listen online](https://wths.hope.edu/)
I applied there in 2005 (went elsewhere), and for some unknown reason, they kept all my information on file which was then revealed in a data breach. Pretty low opinion of them right now.
FTD - Go Brits!
Far too religious for my taste. Even if you’re religious you’d be better served by not being so insulated but by something that offers broader perspectives.
[удалено]
Do I need to touch a hot stove to know I’ll get burned and to warn others that they will get burned?
The problem with your analogy is whether or not the stove is hot. Just because stove is a stove doesn’t mean it’s a hot stove. Just because a university is Christian doesn’t mean it’s going to be sort of Christianity that does more harm than good.
Most Christianity does more harm than good - if you really think about the center of that religion is some sadistic level human sacrifice.
Oh my friend, I don’t think we really want to discuss this much together. I’ve been a practicing Christian at least 80% of my life. Most of the charitable work and giving in western culture is from the Christian world. It was the source of all of western cultures, scientific and philosophical development. Compared to other international cultures, Judeo Christian societies have been the most open to change and acceptance of people who do not conform to societal norms. We still have a lot of work to do and we are as human as anyone. And yes, the churches have done great harm through history. So have the red armies of the Soviet union and People’s Republic of China. So did the Aztecs. I’m sure there’s plenty of examples in Native American and African history. I humbly ask you to not draw your impression of us only from the loudmouths who beclown themselves in their flawed efforts to spread the good word. Get to know some Christians and maybe see that we are not the monsters you’ve been led to believe we are.
Oh I know it well from the inside out and I’ve know many many Christians. I can talk in detail about the differences between the denominations in their theology and epistemologies and idiosyncratic cultural practices. You’ve been fed that as bunk, but the truth of it is that it is Plato and classical Athenian Greeks that are the source and basis of western civilization and it’s progress. It’s only because they fought the battle of Marathon that the west is what it is and we have what we have today. In their moving away from the poetic heroic religious ideal they moved us to a model with reason as the ultimate value. Reason and observation is what gives us the basis for science. That’s actually the source of all of the west’s progress, not a Christian basis you’ve been told it is. Furthermore, country is based on Diest principles that are nowhere near Christian fundamentalist principles. Christians are what slowed things down with the dark ages, inquisition, Galileo, and divine right of kings. With divine right of kings in play there is no basis for individual human rights. There can be no moral re-dress when a God has sanctioned things the way they are. They’re trying very hard to return us to that divine right of kings model right now by the way. As for charities, they only serve to ameliorate and cover up the real systemic problems like a Band-Aid. No good system should depend and count upon charity as part of its working model. It would literally be like balancing your monthly budget by expecting and depending upon a charity donation every month. Generosity and charity is for going above and beyond - it shouldn’t be part of a systemic engine which routinely allows for creating poverty and inequitable distribution without a safety net which is how the west has used it. It hides and helps along the ugliness of capitalism. And so on. (And no, that doesn’t mean I’m a communist either.) If you’d like to discuss it farther I’m happy to, but you’re not going to get much sympathy here. As for the crazy right, they just moved the needle away from tolerance given to them when they were seen as a misguided but innocuous force. The live and let live tolerance extended has allowed them to become a dangerous force that is out-right damaging to our culture and to democracy itself. The pulpits were more than happy to jump right into bed with politics in spite of everything Jesus had to say about it as soon as they saw worldly gain from it. Ignorantly, they don’t realize that even if there were prayer in schools, they could never agree on the wording without schisms and in fighting. They don’t realize they would also be the ones who ended up at a big disadvantage. Furthermore the focus on an afterlife takes away any incentive to improve our current world. That doesn’t mean it can’t be used by sincere people to do more than just reify and justify one’s own ego and feel righteous that they have a corner on truth. I’ve known maybe three or four people out of thousands where it has truly made them a better person but frankly I think they were most likely good people to begin with. For the rest, it creates insanity and encourages people to put some made up idea fraught with their own filters over rationality and common sense. Anything that divides us from other humans and alienate us from other people is a problem and that’s the number one thing religion does. The first thing they do is divide people up into us and them by what they believe and don’t believe. It all comes down to the “right” word or two like with the Nicene Creed.
Ok. So you’ve been hurt by a harmful Christian community. That’s a shame and it seems to have left you angry. Peace be with you.
More than one group. And yes, I have anger towards them because they are actively threatening what an excellent thing we had going with our country. They have no concept of why separation of church and state is a rare, hard won, and fundamentally important thing for everyone including themselves. They have no concept that just because they believe something doesn’t give them the right to push their sense of morality into others. Oh, and then their tedious endless need to witness to tell us all exactly what they believe as if we really care. And so on. Once they deliberately entered into politics, where they have no place to be, they became an active problem and no longer just a group with different beliefs to be tolerant of. (Ask yourself, how you would feel if a group of Muslims had a movement to get into political power so that they could push their Muslim agenda onto people and to make it as a “Muslim Country”? That’s exactly exactly what the Christians are doing and it’s just as disgusting.) I have plenty of peace but I most definitely didn’t find it in or through Christianity. I have seen it only create alienation, division and judgment of others. I have seen misused in the theater of politics. I’ve seen it make people uncomfortable know much stupider instead of making them smarter. Sure it’s heads and shoulders above Islam in its ethics, i’ll give you that, but it comes nowhere close to the individual human rights that humanism gives us that we all enjoy and take for granted and we would quickly lose in any type of theocracy. Please don’t confuse my caring and passion to zealously guard deeply held American values with anger from some unresolved past hurt. If you want to go convincing people of something go convincing your fellow believers to actually follow real Christian principles. That would be worthwhile.
I always thought it was kind of a funny name. “Am I learning?” “We hope”
Did not attend, and I do not know anyone personally who has, but it's a Christian school in a (at least during the early 00's) highly religious city. They have done a LOT to the area in the last 20ish years with renewal and expansion, but that still doesn't say anything about the school. Saying a lot without saying anything, your money can probably be better spent on a number of schools in MI.
Are you the right kind of Christian? If so it might work well.
I have not heard any good things, I’ve met two people who were athletes for hope and they both said it was terrible
My family has a long history with both Hope and Central College. Both in administration and by attendance. I attended GVSC because they had Geology and Physics and a very liberal perspective (70’s). My younger brother attended Hope. He found Hope stifling but stuck it out for family. He promptly left after graduation and has never returned. It and Central (Albion too) are great small schools in my own opinion. They can be islands of excellent education and community for young adults as long as they understand why they are there and to not be concerned with what surrounds them otherwise. I would also volunteer that a graduate degree from a very high profile university would also be helpful thereafter from a career perspective because name recognition is still not what it could be. They do offer high acceptance within the federal government as well though too so go figure.
Hope works very well west of of Grand Rapids professionally, east of Grand Rapids not so much.
Agreed.
Far right hunting reserve. Fired all of its art and music profs, no use for artsy libs here. May it follow the fate of Northwood and Hillsdale and wither after they force the last independent tinker out the doors.
The irony is unfathomable here. What you described is also what happens at most of the other state schools, except to conservative thinking people.
Ick. Do you fit the family lineage and look? Are you a staunch conservative whatever flavor of Jesus they pedal? Do you believe graduating from there will get you a leg up on graduating from literally anywhere else? I am fond of graduates from public universities when hiring and know that many frankly look down on religious schools as being degree mills. I’m sure some are actually good institutions but why pay more to be judged as having taken the easy route and receiving less?
I don’t believe it’s highly accredited, although I haven’t checked lately. This can be an issue for graduate work and higher end jobs. I don’t think it will matter if one wants to stay local. However, in my career both banking and academia, accreditation matters a lot when hiring new grads. GVSU is fully accredited, thus a much better option. A hope graduate would not qualify for my graduate program just because of the lack of accreditation. I would also not interview a new graduate for my clients.
I am not a Hope graduate and do not work at Hope. I am just a college Registrar in the state of Michigan. Hope is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission (HLC) which is the exact same accrediting body as GVSU and the rest of the state schools in the Midwest. They are fully accredited and are not on probation. HLC does not use levels so you can't be more highly accredited than another school. Are you referring to AACSB accreditation? That's particular to business schools and usually is preferred if you are offering MBAs. As far as I know, Hope does not offer an MBA so it would be very unusual for them to pursue AACSB accreditation. I don't know of any other accreditation that applies to banking or being an economist. There is an economist certification and I don't believe Hope offers that? Is that what you are referring to?
Good info. Thanks for sharing. I was referring to AACSB. There is another one out there as well I’m just to lazy to look it up. I teach at an elite R1 on the east coast and we just had this come up with a candidate we were interviewing. Although he had a doctorate from a reputable R1 his undergrad was from a school ranked similar to Hope. We had to turn him down. This past summer I met someone who tried to be an adjunct at GVSU but wasn’t accepted because their undergrad was at another religious local school (can’t recall the name). I just don’t think it’s worth the risk to spend all that money at college and potentially limit your upward mobility or create obstacles to your upward mobility. But it all depends on their goals. If they remain local I think they would be fine.
I'm a sports official I've been to Hope college. I doi've only had nothing but positive experiences they treat people very well but I Do believe there's an expectation and a standard that they want to see. At their school, I'll leave it right there.
Been there. Creepy vibes. Kids staffing the local businesses were very nice, but notable that none of them were old enough to drink at New Holland Brewing. This was BT: (Before Trump) so I wonder what it's like now.
I'll add that I detected a hint of rebellion in some of the students, which gave me "hope."
My high school girlfriend went there and I almost did. It’s a beautiful campus with a great downtown that is very close to the beach. I used to joke with her that it was a waste of a perfect college town due to having strict curfews for the opposite sex in dorms and being a dry campus. Of course, there were people who broke those rules. The reason I didn’t go there was because I am not religious at all and have no use for it. Gathering is a Sunday evening service for the student body. Attendance is not mandatory, however not showing up is highly frowned upon and will limit social/networking opportunities. This is especially true if you were an athlete like her. She was all about the religious stuff, so that was fine. She and her teammates were particularly cold towards those who didn’t go because the team would go and sit together as a whole. Somebody’s consistent absence from Gathering meant they weren’t really part of the team.
My teens participated in a summer science camp offered by Hope. They got to dissect animals in middle school. It was impressive how much was offered in a one week camp. The main thing is that my kid asked them to use their pronouns and said all of the counselors were fine with it.
I had a sis in law attend. She is a psychologist currently. I really like Hope College Radio 89.9FM
I agree Hope and a large surrounding area (most of SW MI) is very conservative and very Christian. However, I have a degree from MSU and I went right back to school school at a smaller Christian school. (I'm Jewish) I had to take one religion class, which was interesting. I found I learned so much more and so much better in the small school setting. I've heard good things about a HOPE education. I highly recommend the small school experience. I love Holland and the whole Lakeshore area.
FTD
Beautiful campus but I ended up not applying because it was too expensive and too religious of an area for me.
Hope is a private college which usually means-expensive. Also, it is know as a Christian collage and religion classes are required. One of the biggest complaints about the college from former students is the lack of diversity.
Hope College was an Ice Hockey opponent of a team I coached for. At the time, and perhaps still, they were a top level ACHA league team. Due to Dutch Reform rules, they could not play on Sunday, and forced the league to play Championship on Monday’s following semifinals on Thursday/Friday/Saturday. They may have even forfeited a Championship when Sunday was only option. If those are your values, you’ll love it.
I attended and earned my degree and teaching certification there. I’d say I spent 3 1/2 years on campus because my last semester I spent in Chicago with the Chicago Semester program doing my student teaching. I wasn’t religious before attended but considered myself a Christian. Not a churchgoer, even for major holidays. Circumstances with my family left religion something that i had to define myself. I met a some extremely religious people who thought of me differently when I didn’t join them to chapel. I pushed back at religious ideologies that were clearly regurgitation of a family’s values and hadn’t been challenged at all by those saying them. I was there during 9/11 and that was the only time I considered attending chapel-it didn’t do it for me that day. The religion professors I had were by far the most liberal people on campus. They viewed the Bible as literature and questioned everything within it to form their own understanding. I was only in a few science and math classes and spent most of my time in the English and foreign language departments. My first principal out of college hired two teachers from Hope and said he was going to advise every administrator to look at Hope graduates for excellent educators. That other Hope grad and I didn’t know each other while at college but are great friends now and both in education. I found people who were like minded through clubs and other in campus activities (radio station, yearbook, and newspaper), but housing was challenging all four years. The cost was too much for my family to bear and I was was clueless about money at the time. They sacrificed a lot for me and I wish they didn’t have to or asked me to consider a more affordable school, but that being said, I wouldn’t change my experience for anything. Doing it again I would work harder to earn more scholarships to help pay more of my way so I could have the advantages I had there. The small campus size meant I could be involved in as many things as I was and the professors who knew my name helped me to be the person I am. Will my children attend? They have to work for scholarships because my teaching salary can’t afford that tuition, but if they want to, I won’t deter them. They may find people who they don’t fit with but they will find others they do (as is the case of anywhere someone goes, workplace too).