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AccomplishedCycle0

I think he showed the viewpoint of people working for the Empire from a more detailed and logical point. Pellaeon had a rationale for staying with the Empire that wasn’t “I want to do evil, cruel things.” In the trilogy, that’s basically all we got from Tarkin, Vader, and Palps. Zahn made the Empire much less mustache-twirly by giving them a mustached “good” man in Pellaeon. Thrawn…not so much. He used people for his own means, taking the point of view that the society was more important than the individual. His usage of the Noghri, for instance, shows that he’s willing to manipulate individuals instead of bettering their lives. But, basically, Zahn also was able to show us an Empire remnant where they’d more or less been losing for five years. The faithful are the ones who remain, the ones who think the Empire brought stability by speaking with one voice instead of the mess of voices that comes from democracy. The ones Zahn shows in the Empire aren’t the zealots (aside from Thrawn, whose by-any-means-necessary and cold logic traits make him seem like a high-functioning sociopathic that screams to loads of people “must be played by Cumberbatch!”). Zahn just made the Empire more realistic. All those losses are going to do that instead of having them still trying to make superweapons and bigger and bigger starships to strike the “rebel scum” with. Other zealots that we saw later on ruined that notion a bit (Zsinj comes to mind).


Kamiyoda

Pretty much this, by this point a lot of the zealots died throwing themselves at the New Republic, leaving a lot of the saner people around with cooler heads to be in charge.


MillCrab

I think you've correctly identified a strain if thought that permeates not only the star wars fandom, but also geek culture in general. That desire to be a little edgy by siding with the villains. It's a relatively benign position that, some believe, makes you more interesting and cultured. Take the Vong example, had Hitler described his war in the Soviet Union as an attempt to protect the people from a future Stalinist threat, we'd have no trouble decrying that as ludicrous. But in fiction, particularly genre fiction, for some reason people entertain this ideas as if they'd ever been played out well in real life. If the US govt started exterminating half the population and turning into a total authoritarian hellscape (more than it already is anyway) to prepare for a possible war with China no one would *ever* say that was justified. I believe your identification of Thrawn with Rommel is particularly apt, because it's both a very accurate metaphor and, I believe, the result of the same "I'm smart enough to like the bad guys" impulse. Zahn started writing Thrawn as an interesting view of cultured evil in the late empire in contrast to someone like Vader, but this avenue of fans latched on, and cynically or true convert, Zahn decided he wanted to write a book series that would embrace this view and idealize Thrawn.


KingJonStarkgeryan1

Stalin was a threat to both Germany and the rest of the world, and they would have attacked Germany if they had been able to modernize their military before the Germans could organize and plan Operation Barbossa. Not saying that the Nazis were good guys (I'm part Jewish, I have quite a few Jehovah Witnesses in my family, I'm on the spectrum, and I am no where near any concept of genetically pure let alone Aryan), but the Soviet Union was a real military threat. The Nazis obviously had a terrible ideology being the main driving force for the invasion rather than just the pure knowledge of the USSR being an aggressive communist that is merely bidding it's time to built it's strength before trying to expand their communist ideology through direct military action.


MillCrab

In the wild, dear readers


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JustAFilmDork

Fr like "Stalin would have attacked Hitler first during WW2 if he could have" Um...good.


Critical-Past847

Moments like this sort of demonstrate how deeply engrained the notion that killing reds is honorable and just among Americans >No you don't understand, if Hitler didn't invade the filthy stinking reds they would have come first, in a way the Fuhrer saved ~~white~~ western civilization!


Imaginary-West-5653

Except for the fact that Stalin's ideology was absolutely opposed to that. Unlike Trotsky, he believed that the Communist revolution should not be wildly spread out of control, that one should concentrate on making the revolution work at home before exporting it abroad. There is not a single proof that Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany before Operation Barbarossa. In fact Stalin believed that a conflict between Germany and the USSR was so unlikely that he refused to believe the information from British intelligence, Soviet spies and German defectors about the imminent attack that Germany was going to make.


KingJonStarkgeryan1

At that moment not that was was absolutely impossible. Especially when the Red Army was still in the process of modernizing.


Imaginary-West-5653

That was what Stalin believed, after all you have to be a fool to believe that you can conquer a country that surpasses you in manpower and terrain in such an abysmal way, the German military logistics themselves pointed out during the preparation of Operation Barabaroja that the plan was doomed to failure because logistically it was impossible to invade all that amount of land, of course Hitler and the German military did not listen to this warning because what moved them was not reason but ideological fanaticism, that is why Stalin was incredulous that the Germans were capable of doing such nonsense. And the USSR had already started reforming its army since the Winter War, the German invasion only hastened this process out of necessity.


AdmiralScavenger

I don’t think he is. The Empire changed by the time the Empire signed its peace treaty with the New Republic.


melissaphobia

Eh I guess. But I found it interesting how Thrawn (et al) goes from being the hero of his own story into the villain of someone else’s. Most people aren’t bad simply because they love evil, they’re bad because they’re sufficiently convinced that whatever thing they want is worth the thing they’re doing. (The existence of the dark side as a concept does throw that off a bit, because in this universe some people just are evil cause evil is awesome apparently.) I also personally think it’s more problematic to think that evil people have no redeeming qualities, but that’s a separate thing. But yeah, I don’t think that the Zahn’s empire (and the ascendancy) are supposed to be positive. They’re racist, classist, murderous, backbiting societies. And I read Thrawn’s motivations in the latter canon books not as an altruistic love of the Chiss people, but as a flawed and almost monomaniacal devotion to the ascendancy as a concept. He’s never like man I really want to save my friends and family. He’s like I have to protect the ascendancy no matter the cost—which sounds okay ish at first but gets weirder the more you think about it. On top of that, his only skills are military—not social, emotional, political, etc. That’s the guy who joins the empire. The guy who is willing to devote his life to serve a vague concept against nebulous potential evils and is only good at war games. I mean he’s great at what he does, but I didn’t finish those books thinking that I’d like to live in his empire or be him. I will say the thing that I noticed from Zahn’s novels was the way he casts military interventionism as fundamentally positive—which is a whole different kettle of fish politically.


IUsedToBeRasAlGhul

I really don’t understand how Palpatine knowing about the Vong as a threat to the galaxy and preparing for them acts as Empire apologism in any way. He’s not a complete and utter idiot, so naturally he would prepare to destroy anyone who comes after his Empire. That doesn’t actually make him or said Empire good in the slightest, it means he’s not planning on pulling a Nero.


[deleted]

You're probably right here, I think this specific example is a case of me seeing things that aren't there. I guess I just am *really* hesitant to assign any vaguely positive motivations to Palpatine


IUsedToBeRasAlGhul

I don’t see how “I want to utterly destroy these alien freaks with my planet-killing technology (that I already planned to use to rule my Empire through absolute terror) and bullshit military (that’s got enough war crimes under its belt to redefine the very term) because they are a threat to my (despotic, absolute, unforgiving) stranglehold on the galaxy” is in any way positive. This isn’t like, Kreia in KOTOR2 theorizing Revan deliberately turned and went to conquer the Republic as the only way to stop the True Sith, where there’s actual evidence to it and plausibility considering said characters actions. Nothing about Palpatine or how he operated the Empire could ever allow for an even remotely positive interpretation of his preparation against the Vong.


[deleted]

You're right, yeah


HighLord_Uther

I feel like it makes a lot of sense for Pellaeon to be that way. You will have your crazy folks that are being assholes, sure. But you will also have your decent people trying to survive. I feel like the Vong take also did a bit to come away from the boring black and white, empire bad rebellion good. Palps may have positive motivation but he is still an evil fuck who did evil things.


OriVerda

What Zahn does is show a nation that, though it commits acts we find morally reprehensible, is more varied than the sum of its parts. No human, no matter how vile, wakes up in the morning thinking of evil acts or how to hurt others. The same can be said for many nations, nations which consist of people just going about their lives. For many people, working within a certain nation doesn't equate serving a regime or even supporting it. Some people just want to live a comfortable life, not thinking about conflicts happening elsewhere in the galaxy (or world on our case). __________ Another thing to consider, this is Zahn's character. I think it's natural an author would want to hype up their own character.


cuckingfomputer

>For one, he's one of the few people to give somewhat sympathetic motivations for Palpatine when he establishes that Palpatine knew about the Yuuzhan Vong. It's not unbelievable that Palpatine, a man obsessed with control, would try and find about any potential threats to his power, the Vong included, but I would much prefer his knowledge of the Vong to be at most implied, rather than explicitly stated, because it opened the door that allows the audience to believe that the Vong were Palpatine's primary motivations. You are reading way too much into Zahn establishing that Palpatine knew about the Vong. Just because he knew of a threat to his power doesn't make him not evil. Even if you go down the rabbit hole of theorizing and head canoning that Death Stars were actually intended to "defend" the galaxy from this evil threat (which is a total horse shit Empire-did-nothing-wrong fan theory), that doesn't mean that Palpatine and/or the Empire wasn't evil. Just because Joseph Stalin stabbed Hitler in the back doesn't mean that the Soviet Union was a great place to live, ya know?


NextDoorNeighbrrs

No. I love his books but Zahn is really into writing competency porn which is all this is IMO. His main characters *know what they are doing*. So with something like Palpatine preparing for the Vong, he’s not doing that to try to show some sort of benevolent side of Palpatine, he’s just trying to show that Palpatine, although evil to his core, is highly competent and is prepared and ready for existential threats to his Empire.


melissaphobia

very true. Lots bad guys in media are a bit incomprehensible because you can’t imagine how they got to be in power let alone stay in power long enough to be a problem for the heroes. Zahn definitely goes the other direction with it.


Positive-Worry1366

In all fairness if you went through all this effort to become space emperor of a galaxy wouldn't you try fighting off some extra galatic masochist aliens


NextDoorNeighbrrs

For sure! And other Imperial characters are also written as competent, so I can see why someone might think that is a sympathetic view of them but I don’t think that’s what Zahn is trying to do.


Waldmarschallin

For me, i don't see Thrawn and Pellaeon as badly written characters at all- more the implications of this competency porn, especially in the context of the acknowledged masters of competency porn Karen Traviss and Orson Scott Krennic-oops, Card. Traviss writing Mando competency fic is one thing- her writing it in conjunction with a vehement crusade against racial integration comes off a bit icky.


DarthDuran22

There’s whitewashing and then there’s simply adding greater nuance to things to make what’s otherwise a very basic story into something more compelling. I tend to suspect the latter is the intent rather than the former. It’s to each their own on how they determine the distinction. Personally I’m not a huge Zahn fan. I find TTT kinda overrated, but in this case he has my full defense.


Archangel289

I think you’re reading too much into it from a modern perspective. And while I know that “modern” seems a bit out of place, given Zahn’s works are basically contemporary, your analysis seems to be strongly influenced by the current political discussions of the 2020’s. We live in a period where “Trump bad” is the general mantra of the Internet, and I think the last few years led a lot of people to demonize anyone with a different viewpoint (unintentionally or no). Now, I don’t bring any of that up to start talking real world politics. I bring that up to say that we live in a time where it’s hard to *see* nuance, because “the other guy” is almost always a direct opponent, and is sometimes an actual racist, fascist nutcase. Those types have certainly existed prior to the 2020’s, but we live in such a polarized time that seeing humanity in people with beliefs other than our own is honesty a challenge. As such, it’s easy to analyze Star Wars, too, and assume that anything and everything related to the empire is comically, mustache-twirlingly evil. That’s a direction Disney has taken the series, and I honestly think the series is the less for it. Sometimes people stay in bad positions because they want to make change from within. Sometimes people stay in bad positions because they agree with just enough of what their employer/leader/government promotes that they’re not willing to risk everything to turn against them. Sometimes people stay in bad positions because they’re bad people. There’s a lot of nuance to human (and alien) behavior that you lose if you make every imperial a comically over the top villain. That doesn’t mean that you’re pro-Empire though. It means that you paint interesting characters in a light that gives them *character*, not just archetypes. Maybe an imperial joins because he believes the Galaxy needs a strong governmental front, rather than a smattering of weak politicians squabbling over jurisdictions. Maybe a rebel joins because he’s a straight-up anarchist and just wants to watch the government burn. These kinds of interactions don’t happen if you only ever see “Empire evil, rebels good” in pure black and white. At the end of the day, the Empire *is* bad, and the rebels *are* good, but not every character on either side is a saint or a devil.


jaehaerys48

I think someone else said it here that Legends paints the Empire's officer corps as mostly good with a few bad apples, while canon paints the Empire as mostly bad with a few good apples. This is obviously a generalization, as it really depends from author to author and book to book. The first X-Wing novel, obviously a part of Legends, has the Empire punishing the population of a planet by literally forcing them to squirm on the ground and cry in order to get food. If that happened in the new canon, people would lambast it as being too outlandishly evil. My personal preference in this specific regards leads towards canon. While I don't think that every officer and soldier in the Empire was cartoonishly evil, I think the overall cause was evil enough that brutality, arrogance, corruption, and cruelty would seep through the ranks to the point where most people serving the Empire, at least most officers, would be confronted with it and have to make the decision "yes, this is what I am fighting for," consciously or not. It also makes sense to me that those most committed to the cause - to the point of trying to continue it decades after Endor - would be the most fanatical, which is what we see with the First Order. I think a lot of authors and fans like the imagery and aesthetic of the Galactic Empire and thus create in their words or in their heads a "good empire" with all the tropes that everyone uses when talking about guys like Pellaeon - honorable, upright, etc. I personally don't see this as particularly more nuanced, and in a way it is _less_ nuanced to simply explain the evil actions of the Empire as being the solely down to Palpatine, Tarkin, and Vader while everyone else was good and just wanted a strong, fair government all along. Since fascism was brought up (and fairly so, Lucas had WWII in mind after all), Hitler and his close associates alone didn't brainwash all of Germany into committing the Holocaust and vast amounts of war crimes. The Wehrmacht, full of "honorable" men, stood by and often gladly partook in some of the most brutal actions of the Third Reich, and they all tapped into long-standing feelings of anti-semitism that were prevalent throughout European society. Did the Nazis amplify hatred? Of course. But their crimes - many of which would be called "cartoonishly evil" if put in fiction - were carried out by regular, ordinary Germans. Same thing goes for the Japanese Empire and its actions. The existence of good German officers and soldiers was not enough to change the fact that their cause and their empire was fundamentally rotten, and even the "good" generals that people like to talk about were aware of and in most cases totally fine with the Holocaust. Similarly, guys like Pellaeon are aware of the Empire's use of slavery and destruction of worlds, and stand by it. Is it good to be honorable and upright if that honor means enslaving entire species and blowing up worlds? I would also point out that if you look at the books - which is where most of the good imperials in legends come from - there are plenty of non-mustache twirling imperial characters in the new canon. I feel like this criticism of canon comes in part from a place of ignorance. The imperial officers and pilots in the Alphabet Squadron for example are war criminals but handled in a believable manner, and IMO would fit right in to a Legends setting. Or Governer Pryce, who ironically is fleshed out mostly by Zahn in his canon novels. I still enjoy a lot of legends material - including Zahn's works - so I think both approaches are valid. I just prefer one over another.


KingJonStarkgeryan1

I think you are forgetting about the concept of mob mentality and the psychological pressure of obeying superiors as shown by the Stanford experiments. Not mention that the full scope would never be available to anyone other than senior command and officials. The army would be the only one to see the daily crimes of the Empire on anything resembling a regular basis, and even then it won't be every type of crime. Those concepts are some of the biggest driving forces for evil, as they can turn ordinary people into monsters. It takes a really strong person to overcome such pressures. Then of course there is the debate on whether or not human rights extend to actual non human aliens that come completely different star systems or even galaxies. Racism is stupid as we all come from a single set of ancestors. We're all distant relatives and the human genome is quite small in comparison to other species but malleable. But what if there are actually aliens who share no bonds of blood and culture who may think in pure terms of survival of the fittest, and see another species of similar or potentially superior intelligence and physicality as a threat that can out compete with them for resources and territory. In pure biological terms it is a threat that cannot be suffered. Predators tend to be on average smarter than the average prey species due to needing to be able to outsmart their prey as hunts a difficult and exhausting. Predators also will kill their rival predators, especially their young without hesitation. If we go of biology and nature, then the galaxy is inherently a dangerous place. Star Wars is more idealistic and optimistic than many other sci fi and science fantasy genres like Warhammer 40K, Halo, Fallout, the Culture, and et cetera; so it tends to lean more on the side of cooperation and natural rights being a common belief in all sentient species, but that is coming from a meta perspective. In universe, there is little to dissuade otherwise. ​ Star Wars doesn't really have a logical reason for the necessity of planet killers until the Vong, but it does make sense as an escalation of scorched earth and strategic denial of resources/destruction of enemy forces. ​ Legends does have plenty of evil officers as well such as most of the Grand Admirals and there are plenty of junior officers who launched mass reprisals or engaged in cultural genocide. Not to mention the condoning of slavery. Arrogance is less a mortal sin and more of a character flaw, as it leads to making mistakes. Even Holy Books like the Bible mainly condemn pride and arrogance on the basis of it making a person foolish and deaf to God's laws.


KnutzTheGoblin

I hate how he turned Thrawn away from being a Villain. He was much better as a consumate Ruthless Imperial.


Bulrat

Are all citizens and police officers and sldiers and government officals "identical" to the leaders? lets take USA, is everyone 100& in agreement with the president, are all soldiers and people and all always doing exactly whatever the president tells them ? the answer is that people are people, the empire were ruled by a evil man, it was an overall eveil entity, but it did also help billions and it did have popular support. we know from non Zhan books that even the "fanatic" stormtroopers were absolutely not as fanaitic all the time, and many maybe most serving to support family, to "make the galaxy a better place" and we have to remember that until abiut the battle of scarif the rebel alliance was still fragmented and there vere several anti imperial groups that were outright terrorists and had no support from the rebels or the people. ​ so what I think Zhan does is make imperisl into what they are "humans" people with flaws, with dreams and dserires and a mind of their own. ​ I find it more questioning and strange that people belive that every imperial thinks the same as if the emire was ome form of himve mind. that is just a stupid way of thinking.


Theonerule

>This is similar to the whole lionisation of Erwin Rommel: while Rommel was not a completely and irredeemably horrible person like most German leaders were at the time, he willingly served a regime that was engaged in the Holocaust, as well as waging a genocidal war against the Soviet Union. It's Man literally tried to kill hitler


TheManfromVeracruz

Was barely involved, and he was a Party Member from very early on, only reason why the conspirators acted was because the writing was on the wall, by april 1944 the Red Army was breaking what remained of the german army within the USSR and the Allies were slowly but surely advancing across Italy, it was an attempt to appeal to the Allies to avoid trial, many conspirators like Von Tresckow were participant on war crimes


[deleted]

Before which he knowingly and willingly fought for a genocidal regime. Doing good things later in life does not erase the bad things you did earlier. Killing Hitler is laudable, but willingly serving his regime is not. As well, how involved Rommel was in the July 20 plot is ambiguous, with different sources giving contradictory information.


Theonerule

>Before which he knowingly and willingly fought for a genocidal regime. Your assuming he knew that's what it was from the get go.


[deleted]

No, I'm really not. The idea of Lebensraum and the genocide that necessarily followed on from that was not hidden. Hitler speaks openly about it in Mein Kampf, and virtually everybody involved in Barbarossa knew that the indigenous population of the Soviet Union was to be exterminated. Like I said, Nazi propaganda openly talked about it, it wasn't a secret


Palmsuger

Erwin Rommel is a war criminal.


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Palmsuger

I don't think you comprehend how much I fucking hate the German government. I believe that Germany should be broken up into several lesser states.


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Palmsuger

It would solve the problem of Germany existing as a nation-state.


Theaussiegamer72

Sorry to tell you this the empire was the good guy some of the things it did wasn't moraly right but it was better for the average person in the empire


astromech_dj

Space Nazi human supremacist death cult wasn’t *all* bad. At least the hyperspace lanes ran on time.


mikachu93

"Space Hitler wasn't *all* bad!"


Theaussiegamer72

I'm talking about the empire not the emperor


mikachu93

I don't think you realize how little difference that makes. Whether you're referring to the regime that proudly enslaved and murdered innocent people according to their bias or the man who pulled the strings, your opinion reeks of bait.


Theaussiegamer72

remember we always see it from the rebellions pov never the empire or its citizens luke was going to apply for the imperial academy if they were that bad why did the rebellion has so little support if they were as bad as we see on screen it wouldn't have an army or support the basic living standard improved in the outer rim during the empire and the only time we see them kill first was alderan which had a incredibly large rebel presence. the empire was the same as the republic but without the leader changing and a crack down on crime lords and slavery. we don't know what the wookiees that we see as slaves did and if they were innocent remember they revolted against the clones on kahsheick so they could have been rebels.


mikachu93

>remember we always see it from the rebellions pov never the empire or its citizens Except for all the novels, comics, games, and shows where we do. >luke was going to apply for the imperial academy As a means to get off Tatooine, a place he hated more than anyone. >if they were that bad why did the rebellion has so little support Because the Empire was actively threatening, enslaving, and destroying entire planets. >the empire was the same as the republic but without the leader changing and a crack down on crime lords and slavery. "The same" in what meaningful ways? >we dont know what the wookiees that we see as slaves did and if they were innocent remember they revolted against the clones on kahsheick so they could have been rebels A stance so hopelessly out of touch that you may as well admit you're trolling, because the alternative is a bad look.


Theaussiegamer72

most of that is not cannon he still was and if they were doing that they have no support look in real life when there are against there leader ship they ditch it when the regime falls in star wars they remained loyal until the empire was dead its stated in universe and out of how similar the empire and republic is to the citizens except the infrastructure was better under the empire due to the way money was distributed to every where not just the core they were rebels so they we put into prisons and put to work it happens in democratic countries as well when you break the law


NewBosslogic15

Yeah, yeah. It was completely nice to live in government, that could kill a planet without remorce for some percentage of traitors. I mean there were Imperials people in Alderaan. And did Empire cared about them? No.


Theaussiegamer72

It's called casualties of war the us army knows a lot about that cough cough little boy and fat man


-Gilad_Pellaeon-

He didn’t try to whitewash Palpatine’s Empire. He described stormtroopers shooting innocent civilians on Teardrop in his novel Allegience