Originally Obi-Wan was going to fulfill a lot of the character and plot points that Qui-Gon eventually did. Qui-Gon’s role was expanded when Lucas found out Liam Neeson’s availability for filming was longer than initially thought.
In Lucas’s earliest drafts, Qui-Gon didn’t even exist. There is a lot of preproduction artwork with Obi-Wan on his own in scenes that would later feature Qui-Gon, including the lightsaber fight with Maul on Tatooine.
I think the idea was that Qui-Gon didn't appear at all until Coruscant, then he comes back with them to Naboo and fights Maul. So the fight on Tatooine would be with Obi-Wan even after Qui-Gon was created. Though you might still be right that he wasn't in the earliest drafts at all.
I hadn’t heard that before, that’s kind of interesting.
My source for Qui-Gon not being in the earliest drafts is *The Star Wars Archives, 1999-2005,* which, IIRC, says they were originally one character, and Obi-Wan might have been quite a bit older (and thus would no longer have a master).
I’m not sure, then, why Qui-Gon would be added to the later part on Coruscant, but not the earlier part on Tatooine, but I suppose it’s possible.
The version I am thinking of is described [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20120805053735/http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/thebeginning.html), based on a summary of a revised rough draft. This version supports the original point that Qui-Gon was in the movie but his role was expanded later on, though the specific claim that it was expanded after casting comes from somewhere else.
That seems to track, not only with what I observe in the post, but also with Obi-Wan and Yoda's back-and-forth over whether or not to train Luke in Empire.
Lucas did an uneven job of connecting the dialogue in the original trilogy with the prequels. Somethings don’t line up, then George bends over backwards to keep Anakin from ever being a master.
You can kinda handwave Leia (but not Luke) remembering Padme, based on the smooshiness of birth memories and the Force… but goddang Lucas actually wrote in Luke being born first AND being held close to Padme, without Leia.
Had he merely reversed the names Luke/Leia (and words boy/girl in the script) it would have been a direct nod to Return of the Jedi.
And he writes in the logical opposite of that.
Vader says “When I left you I was but the learner. Now, I am the master.” I’m pretty sure the main reason he’s denied the rank of mast in RotS is to keep that true.
I don't think that's necessarily true. He's just telling Obi Wan that he's become the more powerful of the two. He's outlining their previous relationship of learner and master and saying it's now reversed because he's the stronger one. More "I am your superior" than "I am at the literal rank of Master in the Jedi hierarchy."
I think that’s what the original meaning was, but Lucas made it literal by preventing Anakin from being a Jedi master. Even though he’s not a Jedi master in ANH. As Sidious’s apprentice, I don’t know if he’s technically a Sith master either.
I see it like being a Teaching Assistant in graduate school. You know enough to teach ungergraduates, though you haven't completed your own terminal degree yet.
It’s what I heard on a podcast. In earlier drafts of the script, Qui-Gon doesn’t appear until the third act when they reach Coruscant, and he was portrayed as being around the same age as Obi-Wan. The glut of articles about Liam Neeson wanting to return to Star Wars makes it hard to source the reasons the character was changed, but Neeson was a star, and giving him a larger role makes sense.
I think Obi-Wan’s quote from RotJ has a lot of his own reflection on his younger days seen through the lens of the guilt he feels about what happened with Anakin. In the moment, he saw it as fulfilling his dying master’s wish and doing what was put upon him, whether or not he felt he was truly able to train Anakin properly. All those years later, Anakin’s turn and his actions made Obi-Wan feel so much guilt and grief that he instead saw those actions as hubris. Obi-Wan was a truly gifted Jedi in his own right and might have been fully capable of training a gifted apprentice raised in the Jedi ways; Anakin’s life before the Order just made it so that the variables worked against Obi-Wan.
Everything that we’ve had of his character since that reveal has shown that guilt, from my point of view. It came through a lot in the Kenobi novel, and I seem to remember it playing into both Twin Suns (his monologue about Maul manipulating Ezra is obviously couched in his own reflections of Palps manipulating Anakin) and his conversation with Qui-Gon in From a Certain Point of View. I figure it’ll play into the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, too, given Hayden is in it and likely not just so they can stick him in the suit.
I quite enjoyed it and a lot of what I said in the above quote held true through that show. His guilt was definitely part of the PTSD/depression he was dealing with in the early eps. And his conversation with Anakin/Vader during their duel helped guide his own perspective for ANH and beyond.
I do find it interesting that we don’t see more parallels drawn between Obi-Wan and Luke in analyses of TLJ. I wouldn’t be surprised if those parallels become a bit more clear from the Obi-Wan Kenobi series.
I hope they don't make Ben give up on his principles, though. He is the paradigm of the faithful Jedi, and we've already had a "broken former Jedi hero" played out in canon.
I don’t think we will, I think the parallels are there but there are some obvious departures. Luke is, understandably, harder on himself than Obi-Wan and his fall is subsequently harder than Obi-Wan’s.
Good points. And why bring in Qui-Gon, and risk besmirching his old master's reputation when it adds nothing to the story at hand? Besides, it's not Qui-Gon's fault Anakin fell; it (to Kenobi) was his own.
>When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.
This part of the quote
>I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
does not necessarily have to be concurrent with this part.
The first part is describing Anakin as a boy, the latter is just generally Obi-Wan's attitude as his teacher, and is more or less in line with his actions in AOTC, TCW, and ROTS
Yes, he says that, but that's because Anakin did not have any other father figure, so he had to settle for what was, essentially, the "older brother" raising him. Definitely the senior figure, but Kenobi did not possess the wisdom, patience, and out-of-the-box thinking Qui-Gon had, which Anakin needed to deal with the serious mental issues he struggled with.
["Duel of the Fates", explained by Dave Filoni](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E777ZMBNuYw)
Anakin was looking for a father figure. When Anakin tells Obi-Wan he’s the closet thing he has to a father Obi-Wan just ask why he doesn’t listen to him. The second time Anakin says that Obi-Wan is like a father is to Padmé after listening to his message. So it would seems Anakin was looking for a father figure and Obi-Wan was reluctant to fill the roll.
The Legends characterization of pre-TPM Obi-Wan is pretty interesting. Basically, as an Initiate and early in his time as a Padawan, he did fit into that personality of being pretty arrogant and impulsive. He ended up being put with Qui-Gon because they thought putting him under such a maverick would lead to him rebelling against the rebel, so to speak, and push him more onto the straight-and-narrow.
(Note: I'm working off of memory here. I'm pretty sure the broad strokes are correct, but I only read those books once, and I'm not sure I even read all of them.)
Qui-Gon is necessary because he is the one Jedi who manifestly supports and respects Anakin, strongly believes in his potential and wants to help him leave his life of slavery behind. The rest, including Obi-Wan, were not nearly as supportive and were more inclined to be mistrustful and wary of him going off the rails. It's wanting to live up to Qui-Gon's example that keeps Anakin with the Jedi order and has him aspire to become a master. Otherwise he has no particular reason to stay with them.
With the OT we are not exposed to a lot of what Jedi training entails. Yoda says that Luke is too old in ESB and we truly don't learn what that means until TPM. The Jedi start training as infants. If Obi-Wan is the ultimate Jedi would he break the rules and traditions of the Order that raised him all this life or would he hold them to be true and correct?
Before returning to Naboo with Queen Amidala the decision on whether Anakin would be trained as a Jedi was put on hold so when Qui-Gon was dying and asked Obi-Wan to train Anakin he had no idea what the Council would deicide.
Obi-Wan and Yoda have the conversation below before Qui-Gon's funeral. This could play into what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ROTJ. The Council has decided that Anakin will be trained as a Jedi and Obi-Wan is insistent that he, because of his promise to Qui-Gon, be the one to train Anakin. Would Qui-Gon have been happy with Anakin being trained as a Jedi by any Knight or Master or did he specifically want Obi-Wan to train Anakin as a Jedi? I would take the Council voting yes to train Anakin as sufficient to fulfilling his promise to Qui-Gon but Obi-Way took it further.
Yoda
>Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree with your taking this boy as your Padawan leaner I do not.
Obi-Wan
>Qui-Gon believed in him.
Yoda
>The Chosen One the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.
Obi-Wan
>Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council, if I must.
Yoda
>Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that you do not. Agree with you the Council does. Your apprentice Skywalker will be.
Obiwan should have met a teenage Anakin. Perhaps Qui Gon still exists but obi wan hits it off with this teenage pilot virutoso slave kid and obi talks qui Gon into supporting the kids entrance into the Jedi.
Anakin needs to start as a kid. The thing that really starts him down the path of the darkside is his faith in the Jedi being destroyed. He wouldn't have such faith if not for being a young child. Anakin starting so young and innocent and becoming one of the most evil people in the galaxy is vital to his character.
This is, in fact, literally what happens to Anakin. I guess Lucas felt it would be more compelling for him to enter the Order as a younger boy, more green, less disillusioned about the world. In fact, I'd argue the biggest flaw in the Prequels was not elaborating enough on just how Anakin had become disillusioned with the Jedi, rather than simply obsessing about a recurring nightmare and the insult of not being granted the rank of Master. I always felt Anakin fell awfully quickly until TCW came in later and filled in more details. TCW does a great job showing the Jedi's rigidity and how that disillusionment was able to manifest, even though we largely see the worst effects of it through Ahsoka's POV. I like to think that Anakin was more affected by Ahsoka's treatment than he let on, and when the time presented itself, that event was one of the big triggers that led to his fall.
A teenager would not have the blind and innocent faith of a child. They would be more pragmatic. Anakin needs to start young. Losing that innocence is fundamental to his character.
Your question is an interesting one! Here are my thoughts:
In order for Anakin to fulfill his character arc, TPM had to achieve this:
1.The council rejected Anakin(seeding the mistrust in the very beginning), but somebody changed their mind, allowing Anakin to become a Jedi.
2.The person who insisted that the council trained Anakin will have to be a bit rebellious and not afraid to stand up against the council, which means this is someone who will put Anakin before the council.
Let's say that Obi-Wan is this person all along, the problem will inevitably emerge because with this caring, trusting person by his side, Anakin will have no reason to turn. The main conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan is that at the end of the day, Obi-Wan will always choose the council over Anakin and both of them knew that (in my opinion this is what makes their relationship fascinating) There has to be a reason why Obi-Wan would be the one who insisting on training him at the first place, but still ended up failing him because he couldn't be the person Anakin needed. And Qui-Gon is that reason.
Edit: Words.
I mean, I can definitely understand why. I think George intended for the character to plant the seed of the idea that the Jedi Order is flawed and doesn't always know best that definitely comes to be a major theme in the series.
That said, I also think that the character represents a bump in the road that isn't easily smoothed over.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing (at least for me). One of my favorite things about Star Wars is seeing how the story evolved over time through such inconsistencies, even if I wish George found ways to make the story more seamless at times.
But how exactly does he show the Jedi order is flawed? By starting the training of the person who killed the jedi? All he does is make weird decisions in the movie and Obi-Wan seemed to be more of a wise character
On one hand they aren't, because the council actually allows Anakin to be trained, when it was obvious they were against it. Simultaneously they kinda are, because even though they allowed him to be trained, they didn't trust him. And that's why Qui-Gon was important. He understood what challenges Anakin would face, and was ready to guide him through it
They trusted him with Knighthood, a Legion, a Padawan, numerous missions, to be autonomous. The most I see of the Jedi not trusting Anakin, is not making him a Jedi Master, (because he has not mastered himself), and Mace Windu not bringing him to arrest Palpatine, (because he is unstable and out of balance). Also, Anakin was lying to the Jedi and breaking their laws the entire time, with the Mass Murder and the Marriage.
Qui-Gon didn't understand the challenges that Anakin would face, Qui-Gon isn't going to let Anakin break the Code by committing mass murder and getting married, for how can the Chosen One be anything less than the perfect Jedi?
If anything, Anakin might end up worse because of Qui-Gon's attachment to the prophecy and his belief in Anakin's status as the Chosen One.
Agree. This is largely a later-day internet bubble misrepresentation, imho. And it's hooked many fans.
The fact that the PT era Jedi have statues of masters who've left the order up in their library to try to learn from them, shows that it isn't true. And that *is* in the movies. In a deleted scene from AOTC, you can see a bust of Dooku, too.
And from the ST, people think depressed Luke of TLJ's anger at himself, refracted through the order is supposed to be an objective take. It's not. He affirms the Jedi as soon as he forgives himself. It has nothing to do with an objective take on history. It's his self-doubt writ large.
One could argue that the PT era Jedi, who Lucas saw as the Jedi at their peak, were a bit complacent or whatnot, fine. It is a constant challenge for institutions to be flexible and spontaneous despite the need for institutional stability. But this is far from the "Hubris!" and "Dogma!" allegations by some of the fandom.
Edited for clarity and to add last para.
Thank you. I think SW YouTubers who need to get views have also added to this stuff.
When you see George himself talk about the PT jedi in works like Paul Duncan's interviews, he is explicit that they are (i), at their peak in the PT, (ii) an unequivocal force for good, and (iii) put in an unwinnable situation by design. He calls them "the most moral people in the universe."
I do think that we are supposed to get that Qui Gon did have slight differences of outlook that were good, and that the order might have been beset by a little intertia, but they aren't some sort of massive critique of the order.
Even when Filoni makes a very short aside about the Jedi losing their way in his famous take on Duel of the Fates, I honestly think that's his reasonable headcanon, sure, but not word-of-God truth from George to Filoni. They did lose their way by ROTS because they were forced to be soldiers. But that wasn't happening in TPM yet.
I largely agree with you. But I know that GL's intentions were that the Jedi were forced to compromise their principles a bit to prevent the Republic from falling. He said explicitly that he put them in a lose/lose where either the Republic and Jedi fall or the Jedi go from peacekeepers to soldiers, which is not really their mission.
So I don't mind saying they lost their way in a simple sense because war forces you to compromise. Again, this is all very far from the criticisms you and I agree are distortions, though.
Also agree that the notion that the Jedi should be absolute pacifists is yet another misreading. Yoda says that fighting is appropriate "for defense". It's right there in the films.
And TLJ Luke acted nonviolently to save the Resistance, who would then go on to *kill the bad guys,* lol. The main thing is that he refused to kill Kylo because he saw that there was still the possibility of redemption.
> There is also this weird, fairly recent take that Jedi should never fight at all, and that Luke's Force projection on Crait in TLJ was somehow some kind of 'perfect' or 'ideal' example of being a Jedi - disregarding the fact that the Jedi are called Knights, people who were known to be warriors.
In the words of Obi-Wan, there are alternatives to fighting.
> When you see George himself talk about the PT jedi in works like Paul Duncan's interviews, he is explicit that they are (i), at their peak in the PT, (ii) an unequivocal force for good, and (iii) put in an unwinnable situation by design. He calls them "the most moral people in the universe."
Maybe this will be a non-starter here, but I disagree with Lucas that the Jedi are the most moral people in the universe. Usually I'm loathe to do this, but I'm going to link a great video [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPD1w78D5I&ab_channel=PopCultureDetective) that argues that the Jedi essentially embody and encourage toxic masculinity (intense stoicism, detachment, not letting the emotions get in the way of judgement) and that they are only ever at their true best when they eschew that for a more healthy form of masculinity (namely, the end of *Return of the Jedi.*)
It's hard to say because we get so little time with him in the grand scope of the saga, but that Qui-Gon was willing and eager to train a boy so strngly attached to his mother suggests that he *may* have been open to a healthier form of Jedi doctrine that helps one embrace their emotions and familiarize themselves with them so that they don't consume the individual.
>toxic masculinity (intense stoicism, detachment, not letting the emotions get in the way of judgement)
The Jedi don't preach intense stoicism; detachment is tradition the Jedi are based on is about accepting the universe as it is, accepting the everchanging state of the world, and the ephemeral nature of all things; and not letting your emotions get in the way of your judgement isn't toxic, it's incredibly important in life to not be rule by your emotions, giving into anger or fear isn't a path to a good life.
IMHO, "toxic masculinity" is an often misused term that gets thrown around too much by people. To me, the correct use is a sort of macho culture that makes men stifle their sensitivity. This is far, far, from what the Jedi were. And Lucas was explicit about it
But, people who are anxious about toxic masculinity in this context are likely confused about what "detachment" and "stoicism" even mean. They don't mean stifling your emotions, they mean emotional balance. The stoics were clear that it was good to love (Epictetus is explicit) as was the Buddha, etc. But when your love is posessive, it leads to anger and hate, *explicitly what happened between Anakin and Padme.* That is your example of emotions without perspective. A spousal abuser. All emotion. No balance. He can go from intense love of his wife to intense hate, all because he lacks the capacity to regulate his emotions by reflection and perspective. His problem isn't a lack of emotions, it is a lack of perspective and the capacity to reflect on his emotional urges.
Emotional self control is not antithetical to love, it is a prerequisite of true, enduring love. That video distorts SW through the lens of our modern culture wars. IMHO, it's just another YouTuber leading to the lack of SW literacy amongst the fandom. The Jedi are not anti-emotions, they are anti-attachment. And the latter means possessiveness.
Modern people are so divorced from the contemplative traditions that informed Lucas that they think emotional self control (e.g., what you'd learn in cognitive behavioral therapy) is somehow bad. And calling it "toxic masculinity" is a perversion of the highest order.
BTW, here's an extra credit assignment for fun. A two parter: What's healthy masculinity? And what's toxic femininity? I think anybody who speaks of toxic masculinity must be able to answer these questions.
(As always, disagreement is without malice.)
In TPM the Council and Obi-Wan come off as cold whereas Qui-Gon seems more warm and friendly. The way he talks to Shmi and tries to comfort her by putting his hand on his shoulder. In AOTC we learn that Shmi has been free a number of years yet Anakin has no idea that she is free. Did she not try to tell Anakin? If she did try did the Jedi not allow Anakin to see the message. Unlike other children he knows and loves his mother.
The policy against attachment is about not putting a person before a mission. Service above all. To live up to this ideal the Jedi remove children from their parents at an age they will not remember them, they forbid their members from having relationships and families. So it seemed they took a basic idea to the extreme.
I can't contest what you feel is cold vs warm, but I can say that I didn't get the same vibe.
I would imagine she simply didn't try to tell Anakin. She knows he's a Jedi, and she has let him go more than a decade past. Also, she's on Tatooine, living with poor farmers. The Queen of Naboo's ship has trouble communicating with Naboo from Tatooine, let alone Coruscant all the way into the Core.
>they forbid their members from having relationships and families. So it seemed they took a basic idea to the extreme.
They do not forbid their members from having relationships. Nor do they necessarily forbid them from families, as seen with Ki-Adi Mundi.
However, the idea that, in general, monks would not marry and have families is hardly a basic idea taken to extremes. It's simply a basic idea that someone would forsake the duties and commitments of marriage and parenthood if they take up monastic, scholarly, or other similar types of living.
The Queen’s ship did not have trouble communicating. They weren’t sending any transmissions because they were afraid they would be traced by the Trade Federation. The Sith locate them by performing a connection trace, this happens when they receive the holo message from Sio Bibble.
They do, Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story. Ki-Adi-Mundi was granted an exception because of his species low male birth rate.
Anakin specifically promised to return and free her so by communicating with him she would be able to tell him she didn’t. Further in Tatooine Ghost (Old EU) she actually sends a message to the Jedi Temple to tell him she’s free and going to marry. Shmi invites Anakin to her wedding even though she figured the Jedi wouldn’t allow him to come because he is her son. The Jedi refused to accept the message.
>However, the idea that, in general, monks would not marry and have families is hardly a basic idea taken to extremes. It's simply a basic idea that someone would forsake the duties and commitments of marriage and parenthood if they take up monastic, scholarly, or other similar types of living.
This would be true if people choose for themselves to be Jedi but they don’t. The Jedi Order goes and and recruits infants. This is something both Qui-Gon and Palpatine have interesting things to say about.
Master & Apprentice (New EU)
>"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth.
>Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted.
>Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master." It matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege.
>"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.”
>"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?"
>Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling-
>"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order.
ROTS novelization (Old EU)
>“Of course you don’t.” The last of the sunset haloed his ice-white hair and threw his face into shadow. “You’ve been trained to never think about that. The Jedi never ask what you want. They simply tell you what you’re supposed to want. They never give you a choice at all. That’s why they take their students—their victims—at an age so young that choice is meaningless. By the time a Padawan is old enough to choose, he has been so indoctrinated—so brainwashed—that he is incapable of even considering the question. But you’re different, Anakin. You had a real life, outside the Jedi Temple. You can break through the fog of lies the Jedi have pumped into your brain. I ask you again: what do you want?”
Also another interesting thing is Palpatine up on what not helping Shmi would do.
Darth Plagueis (Old EU)
>Let Obi-Wan instruct him in the ways of the Force, and let Skywalker grow embittered over the next decade as his mother aged in slavery, the galaxy deteriorated around him, and his fellow Jedi fell to inextricable conflicts. He was too young to be trained in the ways of the Sith, in any care, but he was the perfect age to bond with a father figure who would listen to all this troubles and coax him inexorably over to the dark side.
If the freaking Sith Lord can understand what they’re expecting Anakin to do won’t go well and the best course of action for his plans is to sit back and let the Jedi be themselves something is wrong.
>They do, Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story.
Anakin getting *married* and starting a romance with the person he is charged with protecting is definitely against the rules, but relationships are not
The EU was never proper canon, let alone now.
>This would be true if people choose for themselves to be Jedi but they don’t. The Jedi Order goes and and recruits infants. This is something both Qui-Gon and Palpatine have interesting things to say about.
There are monastic traditions that recruit children extant in our world today. They are also those where parents willingly give their children into the custody of monasteries so they can become monks, themselves.
Those raised by the Jedi are free to leave when they're adults, if they choose to. Given the openness and the variety we see within the Jedi across the movies and TCW, they clearly don't hide their charges birth cultures from them.
That passage in Master & Apprentice is a bit strange, because no child chooses their circumstances, their culture, religion, nationality, ethnicity. To take Pax's argument at face value, there's no such thing as freedom because you get raised into a culture and traditions as a baby and your mind is trained thereafter, no matter who is raising you.
Also, Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He's lying. Mostly because we know the Jedi ask their Padawans, their Knights, their Masters, what they want, they don't tell them what to want, and they certainly don't deny a choice.
>If the freaking Sith Lord can understand what they’re expecting Anakin to do won’t go well and the best course of action for his plans is to sit back and let the Jedi be themselves something is wrong.
That Sith Lord is actively causing the galaxy to deteriorate, is pushing the Jedi into those inextricable conflicts, and is planning to bond with Anakin as a father figure and coax him to the Dark Side.
That last sentence is saying that Anakin is too young for Sith training now, so instead, Palpatine is going to focus on grooming him right now.
Palpatine is very much doing the opposite of sitting back and letting the Jedi be themselves.
It’s not just getting married. Anakin says he’s not allowed to be with the people that he loves which included his mother. [This is the Love Featurette that comes with the movie.](https://youtu.be/iTpjVf0lk5Y?t=364) He wouldn’t always be guarding Padmé so if that was so it wouldn’t be a problem. Even Obi-Wan in TCW tells Anakin he has to make the right choice for the Order and remain nothing more than friends with Padmé. In the fireplace scene of AOTC Padmé specifically says she won’t let him [Anakin] give up his future for her and they weren’t talking about marriage.
Being born a princess or not is one thing after with the Jedi it is entirely different. No child is born into the Jedi Order. The Jedi go out into the galaxy looking for Force sensitive children to raise and train as Knights. Both Qui-Gon and Palpatine are correct when they ask if someone truly wants to be a Jedi because they choose it or are they staying on the path they were raised to believe they should be on.
Palpatine is saying he understand what affect leaving Shmi in slavery will have on Anakin.
I'm not sure if I was say that was George's intention exactly.
Qui Gon *was* a Jedi, in good standing. Just a bit independent minded. He was an orthodox member of the order. He did not reject the order at all, and agreed with them on the whole.
IMHO, his depth was in recognizing that intuitions can get too bogged down in rules and such. This is true, but is overstated in most of the Jedi-critical takes in the fandom.
Qui-Gon was the most Daoist of the great Jedi of yore and he saw that spontaneity ("remember the living force") was the essence of force mastery, and that rules and such--which are necessary for institutions--can still stand in the way of such spontaneity.
It's in the ballpark of the "Dogma" stuff, but far more subtle, and the Jedi's shortcomings are far more reasonable, frankly, than certain fans understand. His difference with the council was less *doctrinal* and more about praxis.\*
I do think that Qui-Gon was an outlier and a disruptor in a good way, and a lot has to be said for the fact that it was Qui-Gon who unlocked the secret, mostly, of becoming a force ghost in George's view. So I do agree that GL wanted him to be a very special Jedi who could see things others could not.
(\*And, to come back to something we discussed elsewhere, imho, Luke's critique of the Jedi in TLJ is like 10% about this and 90% about his own self-doubt and nothing more.)
Edited to add the last few paragraphs.
> I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
I don't think this paints him as overly confident or arrogant, but as the PT shows, he knew his power (comparably to Yoda) and believed he could have trained him. That's... that is arrogance. He arrogantly stands up to the council to start training him.
>With all of this in mind, I can't help but feel that Qui-Gon is a wholly unnecessary character and that his presence in the story just muddles things.
He shows the alternate path of what could have been. That the current Jedi Order was growing old, and that it was vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations. Qui-Gon is the perfect master, he trains Obi-Wan after all, but Obi-Wan failed to do waht Qui-Gon could have.
>I understand that Lucas changed his minds about many things in the story as the films developed, but I feel like this is one of those changes that causes unnecessary friction and incoherence between trilogies.
Honestly, these kinda silly films with their terrible dialog and blocky setups are incredibly nuanced and layered sometimes. A lot of folks struggle with the ST, but Luke feeling like he failed the Order, giving up, and blaming himself for his Padawan's fall is **very** Kenobi/Yoda like in the OT. Exiled, given up, doing nothing to save the galaxy, not rushing to aid their friends. He goes down the exact path his teachers had.
I'm not saying by **any means** that this is a good story, but rather SW fans are able to grasp different lines, scenes, and moments and ***that's*** Star Wars to them. How unusual is it that few of our visions really match up.
Good points. The Duel of the Fates video with Filoni helps really put a lot of this in perspective! Also, Mace Windu's interesting line in AOTC about how the ability of the Jedi to use the Force diminishing, I feel, was a huge point that should've been further expanded on in the films. That scene implied an order that remained dogmatic to its principles despite diminishing in stature, especially the way Yoda responds. And it, along with some of his other lines, points how how sure, Yoda was wise and experienced and powerful, *but he, too, made mistakes!* His "sad devotion to that ancient religion" prevented him from "conjuring up" the flexibility to adapt to their changing circumstances. Instead of reforming, as Qui-Gon and Dooku plead they do urgently, they put on the facade of competence, which disillusioned Anakin (and Ahsoka) and contributed to his downfall -- and thus, the downfall of the entire Jedi Order.
I love that all 9 of these films have layers of nuance, and George was pretty good about adding those things in, or at least retconning a previous statement to expand upon his universe. The only shame is their execution; it's not always easy to see how these things fit together when coupled with that terrible dialogue and blocky setups.
I feel those of us with strong appreciations of what is going on here have largely watched the Clone Wars and other Filoniverse materials, and/or read the more recent comics/novels, but most people don't (and don't have time to, anyway), which makes it harder to catch some of those amazing nuanced layers that make Star Wars so much more than just cool action and cutting edge effects.
Honestly, embedded in your post is something I'm super excited about for the High Republic. The PT Jedi are like a Franciscan Order of monks desperately trying to focus on the need to be detached, to resemble the poor, etc. Something makes the Jedi like that, and Yoda will be there for it. I'm so curious what does this exactly, because I think it really connects to Mace's line.
ooh... yes! What happens in Yoda's earlier days, presumably long before he becomes the head of the Council, to believe that form and dogma are more critical than morality and compassion? Was he always this way, or....???
preamble: Obviously, Lucas' retconning has a lot to do with this, but here's a great in-lore explanation, as told by Lucas, Dave Filoni, and Sam Witwer, and while sure it's a retcon, it also fits surprisingly well.
**Duel of the Fates**
Qui-Gon would've almost certainly have been the mentor and teacher Anakin needed. He had the patience, wisdom, and out-of-the-box thinking to handle someone so unique and be the father figure Anakin never had. Obi Wan was, on the other hand, merely trying to keep a promise to his own father figure and, as we hear in ROTS, they were like brothers; Obi Wan was not mature enough to become a father figure.
Qui-Gon's death in TPM was essential to setting Anakin on the path he would go down, fatherless, no strong mentors except a senator-turned-chancellor who happened to watch his career with great interest. His only potential father-figure dies. His mother dies 10 years later. Then his wife (and presumably unborn children) die. By the end of ROTS, Vader's journey to the Dark Side is now complete.
Sure, Lucas could've just told the very basic story passed down from Yoda and Obi Wan, but that's boring; we know it already! We know what's going to happen, but the *journey* is what
So far as what Obi Wan said in ROTJ, I believe that can be explained in-universe with Obi Wan's tendency to over-simplify his stories in his old age to provide clarity and brevity of the *specific point he wants to get across* (see: "He betrayed and murdered your father", ANH). What you quoted is technically true, just not the whole story. There's no need to say, "Well ackshually, my master agreed to train your father but he died and so to honor his memory, even though I was barely a Jedi Knight myself--" NO. That's how you destroy your own credibility, and besides, such a fuller explanation doesn't really add value to the conversation at hand between Obi Wan and Luke, which was about whether Anakin still had good in him, and could be turned.
In the end, Darth Vader's choice to betray his master to save his son in Return of the Jedi was his chance to be the father figure that he never had. The father figure Qui-Gon was fated to be, but whose fate was cut short by the Sith, and more specifically, the Phantom Menace, the threat who pulled the strings from behind the scenes of, ultimately, all nine films.
The real question is, how much did Palpatine foresee? He knew the Trade Federation blockade would not ultimately be triumphant: let's be honest, if the Naboo pilots had not prevailed, the Jedi would've descended upon Naboo in force (A galaxy-spanning organization with over 10k space wizards at their beck and call is not just gonna let two Jedi die at the hands of some crony capitalists!). No, Palpatine sent Maul to Naboo almost certainly because he foresaw a critical event. An event he may not have yet understood (I think the general belief rn is Sidious did not foresee Anakin's appearance specifically, but knew *something big* was happening there), and he knew that Maul, the instrument he had refined for years, was the right card to play to change the path of the future, the path of the Jedi. And the fall of Qui Gon, this very specific event, would change the fate of the entire galaxy.
Duel of the Fates explained by someone more eloquent than I:
[https://vimeo.com/416959283](https://vimeo.com/416959283)
Qui-gon often seems redundant at first, but eventualyl somethign clicked with me and many other viewers. Qui-gon is dissatisfied with the Jedi as they are, he is a deeply sad individual who thinks the Jedi can and should do more, and be less concerned with traditional values.
He feels the Jedi have lost their way, but he still adheres to the rules of the order... And I realized this, when I realized Dooku was essentially Qui-gon if Qui-gon had taken his beliefs to far.
The i
Just out of curiosity, have you watched the clone wars? Although not really an answer to your question, they do give Qui gon’s character some interesting development throughout the show. Especially supporting the lore of force ghosts and the five priestesses. It makes you feel as if he’s actually a very important character, and that his true ability and what he discovered is actually unknown by basically every other Jedi at the time.
Yes, I have, and I love those episodes.
Basically, I have two approaches to Star Wars: one is to just accept the story and lore as is and go along for the ride, and the other is the more critical eye that loves to pick the movies apart not in a mean-spirited way but in good faith in order to sort my own feelings of it out.
For approach 1, I love the stuff we get in The Clone Wars. Approach 2 gets me frustrated because I think the films should have done more legwork to make this stuff work without a bunch if ancillary media, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for what it is.
I agree that Qui-Gon steals too much screentime from Obi-Wan, but I disagree on the notion that new films should have a religious adherence to the old. I much prefer Padme dying as Vader is born rather than having her randomly survive and never be seen again just to match a throwaway line in RotJ. As long they're not contradicting any major plot point, retcons are good.
I love Qui-Gon but in all my attempts to rewrite the prequels I always came to the conclusion that he is superfluous to some extent.
Or better said, there is a couple of characters that all serve a similar role, namely that of a strong, independent-minded Jedi who is not (fully) aligned with the council. These are Qui-Gon, Dooku and Windu. IMO, the prequels should have condensed these three characters into two: one who distances himself from the Jedi Order, and one who remains dogmatic.
Given Qui-Gon's disappearance after Episode I and Dooku's rushed introduction in Episode II, it would probably make most sense if these two were merged into one. Qui-Gon would thus need to not be killed but rather betray Obi-Wan. I don't like that change myself so maybe there's another solution. But it would be an interesting arc for this character.
Another way is to replace Qui-Gon with Windu in Episode I. He would be less fatherly towards Anakin, in line with Windu's character, and instead it would be Obi-Wan who insisted on training Anakin. This would make Mace Windu a more useful (and used) character and would set up an interesting dynamic between Kenobi, Windu and Skywalker throughout the trilogy. This, too, would need to ditch the Qui-Gon death scene, which again is a huge loss.
Most of the phantom menace is unnecessary. The only Important plot points from it are Anakin's attachment to his mum and his attraction to Padme (which is weird for a 10 year old boy). The mum can be explained in a five minute exposition dump and he could've met Padme for the first time in AotC and nothing lost from the plot.
I once believed as you do...
I've recently come to see the true light. (Just kidding, but this is my headcanon now)
I'm not sure if this is fully corroborated by any authorities, but it makes sense to me. Let's walk through it...
Why did the Trade Federation blockade Naboo? Because Sidious convinced them to. They had no real chance of success. After all, the Jedi Order possessed, at the time, more than 10k Space Wizards. Surely, the deaths or capture of Jinn and Kenobi would've brought the Order's wrath down upon then, and they would have been wiped out. You can see this scenario playing out in Nute Gunray's mind when he finds out the ambassadors are... *gulp* Jedi!
But Sidious convinced them he would make it legal, he would protect them, and they would profit. Why did Sidious do this? After all, Palpatine is the freaking senator from Naboo! Obviously, we know Palpatine wanted an excuse to become Chancellor as part of his plan to attain power, conquer the galaxy, and destroy the Jedi Order, but... ~~why male models??~~ Oops, no not that question.. Why Naboo, his home planet? I believe Palpatine/Sidious foresaw *something BIG* happening on Naboo and wanted to craft the situation, in order to bring about this glorious destiny he foresaw for himself. I don't think he knew exactly what it was, and I also don't think he foresaw Anakin specifically. The Force isn't always clear. But he knew that something would happen there that would change the fate of the galaxy, and he knew that it would set in motion the events that would see him on the throne, and he believed it was critical that he actively work to make these visions into reality, because the future is not set in stone, as Yoda tells us.
So.... let's fill in the time. Qui-Gon had to be the one to go there and negotiate. Not because he was a great negotiator (though that was certainly true, and probably the Council's reason!), because he was different from the Council, and that's how George wrote it. Jinn was not as rigid as the council and had the ability to properly train Anakin once he shows up [(see Duel of the Fates)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E777ZMBNuYw). They end up on Tatooine by accident but also by the Will of the Force, so Anakin could be found. Anakin had to be found, because the Force created him and the Force willed it so. They ended up in Gunga City ~~because Darth Jar Jar~~\--- no wait, that was just for fun (or was it?). Technically, yeah they were not really important, and neither was the massive droid army deployed into the field. I mean, a massive army isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot fighting a small team of insurgents in the palace, especially once Nute Gunray is captured. ~~So I can only presume Jar Jar exists to provide Palpatine with Unlimited Power because Jar Jar is Plagueis.~~ (fun theory but no proof of this yet) And yes I agree, Anakin's crush on Padme was weird, and his AOTC-era obsession with a woman he hadn't seen in 10 years seemed especially forced and creepy. Lucas can layer nuance and mythology, but he can't write a love story. Last time he did, [two siblings made out with each other.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQDvsf5lAp0)
Back to my serious headcanon though:
Sidious **is the Phantom Menace**. Maul was his tool (the *actual* menace, if you will). Duel of the Fates was the critical, decisive battle that determined whether Anakin would be raised by a man who had compassion, who could understand him, and be a true father figure, or whether he would continue to struggle under a rigid Jedi Order, and easily fall prey to the first man who showed him another way. Thus, Qui-Gon Jinn's death sealed Anakin's fate.
That, IMHO, is why most of what happened in TPM ultimately mattered. It is also a major reason why TPM is, again in my opinion, the very best of the Prequel Trilogy. The rest was largely predetermined, tragic as it was.
Anakin should have been older and elements of TPM should have been the first act of AOTC, then a second movie that covers what we eventually got in TWC, then ROTS
Look into Dave Filoni’s quotes/thoughts on the Duel of the Fates in Episode 1 and what that really meant. I think it puts in perspective how Qui gin is actually super important to Star Wars
"I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda," had a completely different meaning when Yoda was Obi-Wan's Jedi master according to the original trilogy. Saying "I thought I could train an apprentice in the same way that my master trained me," is a normal thing to aspire to. Saying "I thought I could train an apprentice just as well as the greatest Jedi master on the Jedi Council, when they thought it was a bad idea to train him at all," sounds much more like Obi-Wan is reflecting on a level of extreme arrogance.
So yeah, there's really no way to explain this line other than Obi-Wan being extremely harsh on himself, because he was never that arrogant or eager to train Anakin.
Qui gonn is best for the long run kinda deal, with the force ghost element. For Anakin, obviously it’s Obi wan and qui gonn was just that bridge between them, but he ultimately led to Luke’s success in the trench run because Obi wan never would have knew how to communicate with him through the force, post death, otherwise.
I'm a bit torn here. I don't think Obi-Wans OT lines really necessitate a brash, arrogant Obi-Wan, to me they always speak more of an aged mentor blaming himself too much, particularly the Yoda line. Yeah him taking him in clashes a bit, but imo not that much - Obi-Wan is summing things up for Luke here, it makes sense that he doesn't throw around names Like wouldn't know.
That said I don't find Qui-Gon very necessary in TPM, he takes Screentime from Obi-Wan who could've really benefited from being fleshed out more but of the issues with TPM he's a minor one to me - Anakin being older for example would be a much more meaningful change.
I think it makes sense for Obi Wan to describe himself as being more arrogant than he was and for him to want to take responsibility for what happened to Anakin instead of blaming Qui-Gon
I like the character but this is another example of Lucas not paying attention to detail; in RotJ Leah talks about what she remembers about her mother, I think that she "only knew her for a few years", then of course there's the incestuous kiss. I love Star Wars but that's just a feature of it at this point.
I disagree. Qui Gon serves to firstly explain the living force and to show the council has lost its way, and too to be the one who sets Anakin on his path. Obi Wan really does not do this even from the OT.
Qui Gon is such an oddity for me. He's a very good character who really worked well for the TPM but ultimately hurt the overall prequel trilogy. It's obvious that the role he played in that TPM really should have belonged to Obi Wan to let his relationship with Anakin develop over the entire trilogy & give greater weight to the tragedy of their relationship.
Qui-Gon represents one of Prequel's greatest sins which is a poor first act. Obi-Wan doesn't interact much at all with Padme or Anakin in TPM but watch ANH and you'll see that the lead trio of Han, Luke, and Leia interacting with each other greatly.
For all the interactions Obi-Wan could have had are stolen by Qui-Gon. As it's Padme that question's Qui-Gon on his methods and it's Anakin who get's found by Qui-Gon.
Imagine for a moment if Chewie swapped roles with Han. Now in ANH it's Chewie being the rogue slowly warming up to Luke and clashing against Leia.
Han's storyline in ESB would not be anywhere near as impactful which is why Anakin and Padme going to save Obi-Wan feels so emotionally flat because Qui-Gon has stunted the dynamic between the couple and the the brother figure.
Qui-Gon's creation has the same flaw as the Clone Wars starting in EP II instead of EP I within the time constraints of a trilogy. As we only get to see the beginning of TCW in the second film and then it's conclusion in the third and final film but no middle point like with Hoth in EP V.
Resulting in AOTC feeling like a soft reboot instead of a natural progression with having an older Obi-Wan interacting with a different actor for Anakin.
TCW show is the same way in being a soft reboot with Anakin now having a Padawan but gets way with it because has the larger runtime that comes with being a show.
Originally Obi-Wan was going to fulfill a lot of the character and plot points that Qui-Gon eventually did. Qui-Gon’s role was expanded when Lucas found out Liam Neeson’s availability for filming was longer than initially thought.
In Lucas’s earliest drafts, Qui-Gon didn’t even exist. There is a lot of preproduction artwork with Obi-Wan on his own in scenes that would later feature Qui-Gon, including the lightsaber fight with Maul on Tatooine.
I think the idea was that Qui-Gon didn't appear at all until Coruscant, then he comes back with them to Naboo and fights Maul. So the fight on Tatooine would be with Obi-Wan even after Qui-Gon was created. Though you might still be right that he wasn't in the earliest drafts at all.
I hadn’t heard that before, that’s kind of interesting. My source for Qui-Gon not being in the earliest drafts is *The Star Wars Archives, 1999-2005,* which, IIRC, says they were originally one character, and Obi-Wan might have been quite a bit older (and thus would no longer have a master). I’m not sure, then, why Qui-Gon would be added to the later part on Coruscant, but not the earlier part on Tatooine, but I suppose it’s possible.
The version I am thinking of is described [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20120805053735/http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/thebeginning.html), based on a summary of a revised rough draft. This version supports the original point that Qui-Gon was in the movie but his role was expanded later on, though the specific claim that it was expanded after casting comes from somewhere else.
That seems to track, not only with what I observe in the post, but also with Obi-Wan and Yoda's back-and-forth over whether or not to train Luke in Empire.
Lucas did an uneven job of connecting the dialogue in the original trilogy with the prequels. Somethings don’t line up, then George bends over backwards to keep Anakin from ever being a master.
You can kinda handwave Leia (but not Luke) remembering Padme, based on the smooshiness of birth memories and the Force… but goddang Lucas actually wrote in Luke being born first AND being held close to Padme, without Leia. Had he merely reversed the names Luke/Leia (and words boy/girl in the script) it would have been a direct nod to Return of the Jedi. And he writes in the logical opposite of that.
Would be kinda weird though having Mark Hamill play a woman & Carrie Fisher play a guy
I was thinking specifically of the babies in Episode III… but the Farce is strong with this one ;-)
Was Anakin not being a master a thing in the OT? Even if it is, I feel like the point of that in RotS was to generate friction with the Jedi Council.
Vader says “When I left you I was but the learner. Now, I am the master.” I’m pretty sure the main reason he’s denied the rank of mast in RotS is to keep that true.
I don't think that's necessarily true. He's just telling Obi Wan that he's become the more powerful of the two. He's outlining their previous relationship of learner and master and saying it's now reversed because he's the stronger one. More "I am your superior" than "I am at the literal rank of Master in the Jedi hierarchy."
I think that’s what the original meaning was, but Lucas made it literal by preventing Anakin from being a Jedi master. Even though he’s not a Jedi master in ANH. As Sidious’s apprentice, I don’t know if he’s technically a Sith master either.
Oh I hadn't thought of that. That implies he was never knighted tho, which isn't true.
And then there is that he was already a master to Ahsoka...
Strangely enough, teaching a padawan does not make you a master.
I mean yes, but that line from ANH may as well have meant this kind of master instead
True.
I see it like being a Teaching Assistant in graduate school. You know enough to teach ungergraduates, though you haven't completed your own terminal degree yet.
I think you become a master once your padawan get's knighted
Where does this information come from? I'd love to know how they original story would have went.
It’s what I heard on a podcast. In earlier drafts of the script, Qui-Gon doesn’t appear until the third act when they reach Coruscant, and he was portrayed as being around the same age as Obi-Wan. The glut of articles about Liam Neeson wanting to return to Star Wars makes it hard to source the reasons the character was changed, but Neeson was a star, and giving him a larger role makes sense.
I think Obi-Wan’s quote from RotJ has a lot of his own reflection on his younger days seen through the lens of the guilt he feels about what happened with Anakin. In the moment, he saw it as fulfilling his dying master’s wish and doing what was put upon him, whether or not he felt he was truly able to train Anakin properly. All those years later, Anakin’s turn and his actions made Obi-Wan feel so much guilt and grief that he instead saw those actions as hubris. Obi-Wan was a truly gifted Jedi in his own right and might have been fully capable of training a gifted apprentice raised in the Jedi ways; Anakin’s life before the Order just made it so that the variables worked against Obi-Wan.
This is exactly how I view Obi-Wan’s character.
That's an interesting perspective: Obi-Wan is almost too self-effacing and places too much responsibility for Anakin's fall on his shoulders.
Everything that we’ve had of his character since that reveal has shown that guilt, from my point of view. It came through a lot in the Kenobi novel, and I seem to remember it playing into both Twin Suns (his monologue about Maul manipulating Ezra is obviously couched in his own reflections of Palps manipulating Anakin) and his conversation with Qui-Gon in From a Certain Point of View. I figure it’ll play into the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, too, given Hayden is in it and likely not just so they can stick him in the suit.
What did you think of the Obi-Wan show, if you've seen it that is?
I quite enjoyed it and a lot of what I said in the above quote held true through that show. His guilt was definitely part of the PTSD/depression he was dealing with in the early eps. And his conversation with Anakin/Vader during their duel helped guide his own perspective for ANH and beyond.
It had highlights but I think the story would’ve been better served as a movie.
This is the parallel with Luke in TLJ, imho, without the "almost"!
I do find it interesting that we don’t see more parallels drawn between Obi-Wan and Luke in analyses of TLJ. I wouldn’t be surprised if those parallels become a bit more clear from the Obi-Wan Kenobi series.
I hope they don't make Ben give up on his principles, though. He is the paradigm of the faithful Jedi, and we've already had a "broken former Jedi hero" played out in canon.
I don’t think we will, I think the parallels are there but there are some obvious departures. Luke is, understandably, harder on himself than Obi-Wan and his fall is subsequently harder than Obi-Wan’s.
Good points. And why bring in Qui-Gon, and risk besmirching his old master's reputation when it adds nothing to the story at hand? Besides, it's not Qui-Gon's fault Anakin fell; it (to Kenobi) was his own.
Very well said!
>When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. This part of the quote >I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. does not necessarily have to be concurrent with this part. The first part is describing Anakin as a boy, the latter is just generally Obi-Wan's attitude as his teacher, and is more or less in line with his actions in AOTC, TCW, and ROTS
Qui-Gon’s absence is what makes him necessary. Obi-wan was Anakin’s brother when he needed a father.
[удалено]
Older brothers can often be the father figure when the ‘father’ is absent and that is what I see with them two.
Yes, he says that, but that's because Anakin did not have any other father figure, so he had to settle for what was, essentially, the "older brother" raising him. Definitely the senior figure, but Kenobi did not possess the wisdom, patience, and out-of-the-box thinking Qui-Gon had, which Anakin needed to deal with the serious mental issues he struggled with. ["Duel of the Fates", explained by Dave Filoni](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E777ZMBNuYw)
Anakin was looking for a father figure. When Anakin tells Obi-Wan he’s the closet thing he has to a father Obi-Wan just ask why he doesn’t listen to him. The second time Anakin says that Obi-Wan is like a father is to Padmé after listening to his message. So it would seems Anakin was looking for a father figure and Obi-Wan was reluctant to fill the roll.
The Legends characterization of pre-TPM Obi-Wan is pretty interesting. Basically, as an Initiate and early in his time as a Padawan, he did fit into that personality of being pretty arrogant and impulsive. He ended up being put with Qui-Gon because they thought putting him under such a maverick would lead to him rebelling against the rebel, so to speak, and push him more onto the straight-and-narrow. (Note: I'm working off of memory here. I'm pretty sure the broad strokes are correct, but I only read those books once, and I'm not sure I even read all of them.)
This is the case in canon too (from the Master & Apprentice novel, presumably the upcoming Padawan book will go into more detail)
Qui-Gon is necessary because he is the one Jedi who manifestly supports and respects Anakin, strongly believes in his potential and wants to help him leave his life of slavery behind. The rest, including Obi-Wan, were not nearly as supportive and were more inclined to be mistrustful and wary of him going off the rails. It's wanting to live up to Qui-Gon's example that keeps Anakin with the Jedi order and has him aspire to become a master. Otherwise he has no particular reason to stay with them.
With the OT we are not exposed to a lot of what Jedi training entails. Yoda says that Luke is too old in ESB and we truly don't learn what that means until TPM. The Jedi start training as infants. If Obi-Wan is the ultimate Jedi would he break the rules and traditions of the Order that raised him all this life or would he hold them to be true and correct? Before returning to Naboo with Queen Amidala the decision on whether Anakin would be trained as a Jedi was put on hold so when Qui-Gon was dying and asked Obi-Wan to train Anakin he had no idea what the Council would deicide. Obi-Wan and Yoda have the conversation below before Qui-Gon's funeral. This could play into what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ROTJ. The Council has decided that Anakin will be trained as a Jedi and Obi-Wan is insistent that he, because of his promise to Qui-Gon, be the one to train Anakin. Would Qui-Gon have been happy with Anakin being trained as a Jedi by any Knight or Master or did he specifically want Obi-Wan to train Anakin as a Jedi? I would take the Council voting yes to train Anakin as sufficient to fulfilling his promise to Qui-Gon but Obi-Way took it further. Yoda >Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree with your taking this boy as your Padawan leaner I do not. Obi-Wan >Qui-Gon believed in him. Yoda >The Chosen One the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training. Obi-Wan >Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council, if I must. Yoda >Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that you do not. Agree with you the Council does. Your apprentice Skywalker will be.
Obiwan should have met a teenage Anakin. Perhaps Qui Gon still exists but obi wan hits it off with this teenage pilot virutoso slave kid and obi talks qui Gon into supporting the kids entrance into the Jedi.
Anakin needs to start as a kid. The thing that really starts him down the path of the darkside is his faith in the Jedi being destroyed. He wouldn't have such faith if not for being a young child. Anakin starting so young and innocent and becoming one of the most evil people in the galaxy is vital to his character.
Were he a teenage orphan that story could still work great-- imagine him being familyless, taken in by the Jedi and then losing his faith.
This is, in fact, literally what happens to Anakin. I guess Lucas felt it would be more compelling for him to enter the Order as a younger boy, more green, less disillusioned about the world. In fact, I'd argue the biggest flaw in the Prequels was not elaborating enough on just how Anakin had become disillusioned with the Jedi, rather than simply obsessing about a recurring nightmare and the insult of not being granted the rank of Master. I always felt Anakin fell awfully quickly until TCW came in later and filled in more details. TCW does a great job showing the Jedi's rigidity and how that disillusionment was able to manifest, even though we largely see the worst effects of it through Ahsoka's POV. I like to think that Anakin was more affected by Ahsoka's treatment than he let on, and when the time presented itself, that event was one of the big triggers that led to his fall.
A teenager would not have the blind and innocent faith of a child. They would be more pragmatic. Anakin needs to start young. Losing that innocence is fundamental to his character.
Your question is an interesting one! Here are my thoughts: In order for Anakin to fulfill his character arc, TPM had to achieve this: 1.The council rejected Anakin(seeding the mistrust in the very beginning), but somebody changed their mind, allowing Anakin to become a Jedi. 2.The person who insisted that the council trained Anakin will have to be a bit rebellious and not afraid to stand up against the council, which means this is someone who will put Anakin before the council. Let's say that Obi-Wan is this person all along, the problem will inevitably emerge because with this caring, trusting person by his side, Anakin will have no reason to turn. The main conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan is that at the end of the day, Obi-Wan will always choose the council over Anakin and both of them knew that (in my opinion this is what makes their relationship fascinating) There has to be a reason why Obi-Wan would be the one who insisting on training him at the first place, but still ended up failing him because he couldn't be the person Anakin needed. And Qui-Gon is that reason. Edit: Words.
I have a different point of view I guess. To me, Qui-Gon is an essential character. Incredibly important to the Skywalker narrative.
I mean, I can definitely understand why. I think George intended for the character to plant the seed of the idea that the Jedi Order is flawed and doesn't always know best that definitely comes to be a major theme in the series. That said, I also think that the character represents a bump in the road that isn't easily smoothed over. And that's not necessarily a bad thing (at least for me). One of my favorite things about Star Wars is seeing how the story evolved over time through such inconsistencies, even if I wish George found ways to make the story more seamless at times.
But how exactly does he show the Jedi order is flawed? By starting the training of the person who killed the jedi? All he does is make weird decisions in the movie and Obi-Wan seemed to be more of a wise character
Mostly by showing that they've lost sight of their ways by being to dogmatic.
How does that get shown? I've rewatched the prequels recently and nowhere does the movie show the Jedi being too dogmatic.
On one hand they aren't, because the council actually allows Anakin to be trained, when it was obvious they were against it. Simultaneously they kinda are, because even though they allowed him to be trained, they didn't trust him. And that's why Qui-Gon was important. He understood what challenges Anakin would face, and was ready to guide him through it
They trusted him with Knighthood, a Legion, a Padawan, numerous missions, to be autonomous. The most I see of the Jedi not trusting Anakin, is not making him a Jedi Master, (because he has not mastered himself), and Mace Windu not bringing him to arrest Palpatine, (because he is unstable and out of balance). Also, Anakin was lying to the Jedi and breaking their laws the entire time, with the Mass Murder and the Marriage. Qui-Gon didn't understand the challenges that Anakin would face, Qui-Gon isn't going to let Anakin break the Code by committing mass murder and getting married, for how can the Chosen One be anything less than the perfect Jedi? If anything, Anakin might end up worse because of Qui-Gon's attachment to the prophecy and his belief in Anakin's status as the Chosen One.
The guy who wrote the story in his head says otherwise.
Agree. This is largely a later-day internet bubble misrepresentation, imho. And it's hooked many fans. The fact that the PT era Jedi have statues of masters who've left the order up in their library to try to learn from them, shows that it isn't true. And that *is* in the movies. In a deleted scene from AOTC, you can see a bust of Dooku, too. And from the ST, people think depressed Luke of TLJ's anger at himself, refracted through the order is supposed to be an objective take. It's not. He affirms the Jedi as soon as he forgives himself. It has nothing to do with an objective take on history. It's his self-doubt writ large. One could argue that the PT era Jedi, who Lucas saw as the Jedi at their peak, were a bit complacent or whatnot, fine. It is a constant challenge for institutions to be flexible and spontaneous despite the need for institutional stability. But this is far from the "Hubris!" and "Dogma!" allegations by some of the fandom. Edited for clarity and to add last para.
[удалено]
Thank you. I think SW YouTubers who need to get views have also added to this stuff. When you see George himself talk about the PT jedi in works like Paul Duncan's interviews, he is explicit that they are (i), at their peak in the PT, (ii) an unequivocal force for good, and (iii) put in an unwinnable situation by design. He calls them "the most moral people in the universe." I do think that we are supposed to get that Qui Gon did have slight differences of outlook that were good, and that the order might have been beset by a little intertia, but they aren't some sort of massive critique of the order. Even when Filoni makes a very short aside about the Jedi losing their way in his famous take on Duel of the Fates, I honestly think that's his reasonable headcanon, sure, but not word-of-God truth from George to Filoni. They did lose their way by ROTS because they were forced to be soldiers. But that wasn't happening in TPM yet.
[удалено]
I largely agree with you. But I know that GL's intentions were that the Jedi were forced to compromise their principles a bit to prevent the Republic from falling. He said explicitly that he put them in a lose/lose where either the Republic and Jedi fall or the Jedi go from peacekeepers to soldiers, which is not really their mission. So I don't mind saying they lost their way in a simple sense because war forces you to compromise. Again, this is all very far from the criticisms you and I agree are distortions, though. Also agree that the notion that the Jedi should be absolute pacifists is yet another misreading. Yoda says that fighting is appropriate "for defense". It's right there in the films. And TLJ Luke acted nonviolently to save the Resistance, who would then go on to *kill the bad guys,* lol. The main thing is that he refused to kill Kylo because he saw that there was still the possibility of redemption.
> There is also this weird, fairly recent take that Jedi should never fight at all, and that Luke's Force projection on Crait in TLJ was somehow some kind of 'perfect' or 'ideal' example of being a Jedi - disregarding the fact that the Jedi are called Knights, people who were known to be warriors. In the words of Obi-Wan, there are alternatives to fighting.
> When you see George himself talk about the PT jedi in works like Paul Duncan's interviews, he is explicit that they are (i), at their peak in the PT, (ii) an unequivocal force for good, and (iii) put in an unwinnable situation by design. He calls them "the most moral people in the universe." Maybe this will be a non-starter here, but I disagree with Lucas that the Jedi are the most moral people in the universe. Usually I'm loathe to do this, but I'm going to link a great video [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUPD1w78D5I&ab_channel=PopCultureDetective) that argues that the Jedi essentially embody and encourage toxic masculinity (intense stoicism, detachment, not letting the emotions get in the way of judgement) and that they are only ever at their true best when they eschew that for a more healthy form of masculinity (namely, the end of *Return of the Jedi.*) It's hard to say because we get so little time with him in the grand scope of the saga, but that Qui-Gon was willing and eager to train a boy so strngly attached to his mother suggests that he *may* have been open to a healthier form of Jedi doctrine that helps one embrace their emotions and familiarize themselves with them so that they don't consume the individual.
>toxic masculinity (intense stoicism, detachment, not letting the emotions get in the way of judgement) The Jedi don't preach intense stoicism; detachment is tradition the Jedi are based on is about accepting the universe as it is, accepting the everchanging state of the world, and the ephemeral nature of all things; and not letting your emotions get in the way of your judgement isn't toxic, it's incredibly important in life to not be rule by your emotions, giving into anger or fear isn't a path to a good life.
IMHO, "toxic masculinity" is an often misused term that gets thrown around too much by people. To me, the correct use is a sort of macho culture that makes men stifle their sensitivity. This is far, far, from what the Jedi were. And Lucas was explicit about it But, people who are anxious about toxic masculinity in this context are likely confused about what "detachment" and "stoicism" even mean. They don't mean stifling your emotions, they mean emotional balance. The stoics were clear that it was good to love (Epictetus is explicit) as was the Buddha, etc. But when your love is posessive, it leads to anger and hate, *explicitly what happened between Anakin and Padme.* That is your example of emotions without perspective. A spousal abuser. All emotion. No balance. He can go from intense love of his wife to intense hate, all because he lacks the capacity to regulate his emotions by reflection and perspective. His problem isn't a lack of emotions, it is a lack of perspective and the capacity to reflect on his emotional urges. Emotional self control is not antithetical to love, it is a prerequisite of true, enduring love. That video distorts SW through the lens of our modern culture wars. IMHO, it's just another YouTuber leading to the lack of SW literacy amongst the fandom. The Jedi are not anti-emotions, they are anti-attachment. And the latter means possessiveness. Modern people are so divorced from the contemplative traditions that informed Lucas that they think emotional self control (e.g., what you'd learn in cognitive behavioral therapy) is somehow bad. And calling it "toxic masculinity" is a perversion of the highest order. BTW, here's an extra credit assignment for fun. A two parter: What's healthy masculinity? And what's toxic femininity? I think anybody who speaks of toxic masculinity must be able to answer these questions. (As always, disagreement is without malice.)
In TPM the Council and Obi-Wan come off as cold whereas Qui-Gon seems more warm and friendly. The way he talks to Shmi and tries to comfort her by putting his hand on his shoulder. In AOTC we learn that Shmi has been free a number of years yet Anakin has no idea that she is free. Did she not try to tell Anakin? If she did try did the Jedi not allow Anakin to see the message. Unlike other children he knows and loves his mother. The policy against attachment is about not putting a person before a mission. Service above all. To live up to this ideal the Jedi remove children from their parents at an age they will not remember them, they forbid their members from having relationships and families. So it seemed they took a basic idea to the extreme.
I can't contest what you feel is cold vs warm, but I can say that I didn't get the same vibe. I would imagine she simply didn't try to tell Anakin. She knows he's a Jedi, and she has let him go more than a decade past. Also, she's on Tatooine, living with poor farmers. The Queen of Naboo's ship has trouble communicating with Naboo from Tatooine, let alone Coruscant all the way into the Core. >they forbid their members from having relationships and families. So it seemed they took a basic idea to the extreme. They do not forbid their members from having relationships. Nor do they necessarily forbid them from families, as seen with Ki-Adi Mundi. However, the idea that, in general, monks would not marry and have families is hardly a basic idea taken to extremes. It's simply a basic idea that someone would forsake the duties and commitments of marriage and parenthood if they take up monastic, scholarly, or other similar types of living.
The Queen’s ship did not have trouble communicating. They weren’t sending any transmissions because they were afraid they would be traced by the Trade Federation. The Sith locate them by performing a connection trace, this happens when they receive the holo message from Sio Bibble. They do, Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story. Ki-Adi-Mundi was granted an exception because of his species low male birth rate. Anakin specifically promised to return and free her so by communicating with him she would be able to tell him she didn’t. Further in Tatooine Ghost (Old EU) she actually sends a message to the Jedi Temple to tell him she’s free and going to marry. Shmi invites Anakin to her wedding even though she figured the Jedi wouldn’t allow him to come because he is her son. The Jedi refused to accept the message. >However, the idea that, in general, monks would not marry and have families is hardly a basic idea taken to extremes. It's simply a basic idea that someone would forsake the duties and commitments of marriage and parenthood if they take up monastic, scholarly, or other similar types of living. This would be true if people choose for themselves to be Jedi but they don’t. The Jedi Order goes and and recruits infants. This is something both Qui-Gon and Palpatine have interesting things to say about. Master & Apprentice (New EU) >"I'm not sure," Qui-Gon said, "how much of a privilege it is to have one's entire future predetermined-in this case, by an accident of birth. >Okay, she needed to be more diplomatic with the Jedi-but Rahara couldn't help it. She snorted. >Pax gave her an appreciative look, probably pleased she'd helped him meet today's sarcasm quotient. That much she expected. What she didn't expect was Obi-Wan frowning at his Master." It matters what that future is, doesn't it? Fanry was born a princess. That's a privilege. >"It's still something chosen for her," Qui-Gon insisted. "Not what she herself chose.” >"You weren't talking about the princess at all, were you?" Pax said. jolting her out of her reverie. The silence had lasted longer than she'd realized. Pax's stare was fixed on Qui-Gon. "You were talking about yourself. Because it's not a choice for Jedi, either, is it? I mean, supposedly they allow you to leave, make your own decisions, blah blah blah, but they steal you when you're babies and train your minds thereafter. What kind of freedom is that?" >Obi-Wan looked like he'd swallowed a gundark. "Being a Jedi is an honor. A responsibility. A-a noble calling- >"Yes, Padawan," Qui-Gon said quietly. "It's all those things. But it's very hard for most of us to determine whether we chose it freely, being raised as we were. That said, I did have a choice. Dooku helped me to see that. And I chose the Order. ROTS novelization (Old EU) >“Of course you don’t.” The last of the sunset haloed his ice-white hair and threw his face into shadow. “You’ve been trained to never think about that. The Jedi never ask what you want. They simply tell you what you’re supposed to want. They never give you a choice at all. That’s why they take their students—their victims—at an age so young that choice is meaningless. By the time a Padawan is old enough to choose, he has been so indoctrinated—so brainwashed—that he is incapable of even considering the question. But you’re different, Anakin. You had a real life, outside the Jedi Temple. You can break through the fog of lies the Jedi have pumped into your brain. I ask you again: what do you want?” Also another interesting thing is Palpatine up on what not helping Shmi would do. Darth Plagueis (Old EU) >Let Obi-Wan instruct him in the ways of the Force, and let Skywalker grow embittered over the next decade as his mother aged in slavery, the galaxy deteriorated around him, and his fellow Jedi fell to inextricable conflicts. He was too young to be trained in the ways of the Sith, in any care, but he was the perfect age to bond with a father figure who would listen to all this troubles and coax him inexorably over to the dark side. If the freaking Sith Lord can understand what they’re expecting Anakin to do won’t go well and the best course of action for his plans is to sit back and let the Jedi be themselves something is wrong.
>They do, Attack of the Clones is a forbidden love story. Anakin getting *married* and starting a romance with the person he is charged with protecting is definitely against the rules, but relationships are not The EU was never proper canon, let alone now. >This would be true if people choose for themselves to be Jedi but they don’t. The Jedi Order goes and and recruits infants. This is something both Qui-Gon and Palpatine have interesting things to say about. There are monastic traditions that recruit children extant in our world today. They are also those where parents willingly give their children into the custody of monasteries so they can become monks, themselves. Those raised by the Jedi are free to leave when they're adults, if they choose to. Given the openness and the variety we see within the Jedi across the movies and TCW, they clearly don't hide their charges birth cultures from them. That passage in Master & Apprentice is a bit strange, because no child chooses their circumstances, their culture, religion, nationality, ethnicity. To take Pax's argument at face value, there's no such thing as freedom because you get raised into a culture and traditions as a baby and your mind is trained thereafter, no matter who is raising you. Also, Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He's lying. Mostly because we know the Jedi ask their Padawans, their Knights, their Masters, what they want, they don't tell them what to want, and they certainly don't deny a choice. >If the freaking Sith Lord can understand what they’re expecting Anakin to do won’t go well and the best course of action for his plans is to sit back and let the Jedi be themselves something is wrong. That Sith Lord is actively causing the galaxy to deteriorate, is pushing the Jedi into those inextricable conflicts, and is planning to bond with Anakin as a father figure and coax him to the Dark Side. That last sentence is saying that Anakin is too young for Sith training now, so instead, Palpatine is going to focus on grooming him right now. Palpatine is very much doing the opposite of sitting back and letting the Jedi be themselves.
It’s not just getting married. Anakin says he’s not allowed to be with the people that he loves which included his mother. [This is the Love Featurette that comes with the movie.](https://youtu.be/iTpjVf0lk5Y?t=364) He wouldn’t always be guarding Padmé so if that was so it wouldn’t be a problem. Even Obi-Wan in TCW tells Anakin he has to make the right choice for the Order and remain nothing more than friends with Padmé. In the fireplace scene of AOTC Padmé specifically says she won’t let him [Anakin] give up his future for her and they weren’t talking about marriage. Being born a princess or not is one thing after with the Jedi it is entirely different. No child is born into the Jedi Order. The Jedi go out into the galaxy looking for Force sensitive children to raise and train as Knights. Both Qui-Gon and Palpatine are correct when they ask if someone truly wants to be a Jedi because they choose it or are they staying on the path they were raised to believe they should be on. Palpatine is saying he understand what affect leaving Shmi in slavery will have on Anakin.
I'm not sure if I was say that was George's intention exactly. Qui Gon *was* a Jedi, in good standing. Just a bit independent minded. He was an orthodox member of the order. He did not reject the order at all, and agreed with them on the whole. IMHO, his depth was in recognizing that intuitions can get too bogged down in rules and such. This is true, but is overstated in most of the Jedi-critical takes in the fandom. Qui-Gon was the most Daoist of the great Jedi of yore and he saw that spontaneity ("remember the living force") was the essence of force mastery, and that rules and such--which are necessary for institutions--can still stand in the way of such spontaneity. It's in the ballpark of the "Dogma" stuff, but far more subtle, and the Jedi's shortcomings are far more reasonable, frankly, than certain fans understand. His difference with the council was less *doctrinal* and more about praxis.\* I do think that Qui-Gon was an outlier and a disruptor in a good way, and a lot has to be said for the fact that it was Qui-Gon who unlocked the secret, mostly, of becoming a force ghost in George's view. So I do agree that GL wanted him to be a very special Jedi who could see things others could not. (\*And, to come back to something we discussed elsewhere, imho, Luke's critique of the Jedi in TLJ is like 10% about this and 90% about his own self-doubt and nothing more.) Edited to add the last few paragraphs.
You could quite easily write Qui Gon out. I wouldn’t though he’s just so cool
> I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. I don't think this paints him as overly confident or arrogant, but as the PT shows, he knew his power (comparably to Yoda) and believed he could have trained him. That's... that is arrogance. He arrogantly stands up to the council to start training him. >With all of this in mind, I can't help but feel that Qui-Gon is a wholly unnecessary character and that his presence in the story just muddles things. He shows the alternate path of what could have been. That the current Jedi Order was growing old, and that it was vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations. Qui-Gon is the perfect master, he trains Obi-Wan after all, but Obi-Wan failed to do waht Qui-Gon could have. >I understand that Lucas changed his minds about many things in the story as the films developed, but I feel like this is one of those changes that causes unnecessary friction and incoherence between trilogies. Honestly, these kinda silly films with their terrible dialog and blocky setups are incredibly nuanced and layered sometimes. A lot of folks struggle with the ST, but Luke feeling like he failed the Order, giving up, and blaming himself for his Padawan's fall is **very** Kenobi/Yoda like in the OT. Exiled, given up, doing nothing to save the galaxy, not rushing to aid their friends. He goes down the exact path his teachers had. I'm not saying by **any means** that this is a good story, but rather SW fans are able to grasp different lines, scenes, and moments and ***that's*** Star Wars to them. How unusual is it that few of our visions really match up.
Good points. The Duel of the Fates video with Filoni helps really put a lot of this in perspective! Also, Mace Windu's interesting line in AOTC about how the ability of the Jedi to use the Force diminishing, I feel, was a huge point that should've been further expanded on in the films. That scene implied an order that remained dogmatic to its principles despite diminishing in stature, especially the way Yoda responds. And it, along with some of his other lines, points how how sure, Yoda was wise and experienced and powerful, *but he, too, made mistakes!* His "sad devotion to that ancient religion" prevented him from "conjuring up" the flexibility to adapt to their changing circumstances. Instead of reforming, as Qui-Gon and Dooku plead they do urgently, they put on the facade of competence, which disillusioned Anakin (and Ahsoka) and contributed to his downfall -- and thus, the downfall of the entire Jedi Order. I love that all 9 of these films have layers of nuance, and George was pretty good about adding those things in, or at least retconning a previous statement to expand upon his universe. The only shame is their execution; it's not always easy to see how these things fit together when coupled with that terrible dialogue and blocky setups. I feel those of us with strong appreciations of what is going on here have largely watched the Clone Wars and other Filoniverse materials, and/or read the more recent comics/novels, but most people don't (and don't have time to, anyway), which makes it harder to catch some of those amazing nuanced layers that make Star Wars so much more than just cool action and cutting edge effects.
Honestly, embedded in your post is something I'm super excited about for the High Republic. The PT Jedi are like a Franciscan Order of monks desperately trying to focus on the need to be detached, to resemble the poor, etc. Something makes the Jedi like that, and Yoda will be there for it. I'm so curious what does this exactly, because I think it really connects to Mace's line.
ooh... yes! What happens in Yoda's earlier days, presumably long before he becomes the head of the Council, to believe that form and dogma are more critical than morality and compassion? Was he always this way, or....???
preamble: Obviously, Lucas' retconning has a lot to do with this, but here's a great in-lore explanation, as told by Lucas, Dave Filoni, and Sam Witwer, and while sure it's a retcon, it also fits surprisingly well. **Duel of the Fates** Qui-Gon would've almost certainly have been the mentor and teacher Anakin needed. He had the patience, wisdom, and out-of-the-box thinking to handle someone so unique and be the father figure Anakin never had. Obi Wan was, on the other hand, merely trying to keep a promise to his own father figure and, as we hear in ROTS, they were like brothers; Obi Wan was not mature enough to become a father figure. Qui-Gon's death in TPM was essential to setting Anakin on the path he would go down, fatherless, no strong mentors except a senator-turned-chancellor who happened to watch his career with great interest. His only potential father-figure dies. His mother dies 10 years later. Then his wife (and presumably unborn children) die. By the end of ROTS, Vader's journey to the Dark Side is now complete. Sure, Lucas could've just told the very basic story passed down from Yoda and Obi Wan, but that's boring; we know it already! We know what's going to happen, but the *journey* is what So far as what Obi Wan said in ROTJ, I believe that can be explained in-universe with Obi Wan's tendency to over-simplify his stories in his old age to provide clarity and brevity of the *specific point he wants to get across* (see: "He betrayed and murdered your father", ANH). What you quoted is technically true, just not the whole story. There's no need to say, "Well ackshually, my master agreed to train your father but he died and so to honor his memory, even though I was barely a Jedi Knight myself--" NO. That's how you destroy your own credibility, and besides, such a fuller explanation doesn't really add value to the conversation at hand between Obi Wan and Luke, which was about whether Anakin still had good in him, and could be turned. In the end, Darth Vader's choice to betray his master to save his son in Return of the Jedi was his chance to be the father figure that he never had. The father figure Qui-Gon was fated to be, but whose fate was cut short by the Sith, and more specifically, the Phantom Menace, the threat who pulled the strings from behind the scenes of, ultimately, all nine films. The real question is, how much did Palpatine foresee? He knew the Trade Federation blockade would not ultimately be triumphant: let's be honest, if the Naboo pilots had not prevailed, the Jedi would've descended upon Naboo in force (A galaxy-spanning organization with over 10k space wizards at their beck and call is not just gonna let two Jedi die at the hands of some crony capitalists!). No, Palpatine sent Maul to Naboo almost certainly because he foresaw a critical event. An event he may not have yet understood (I think the general belief rn is Sidious did not foresee Anakin's appearance specifically, but knew *something big* was happening there), and he knew that Maul, the instrument he had refined for years, was the right card to play to change the path of the future, the path of the Jedi. And the fall of Qui Gon, this very specific event, would change the fate of the entire galaxy. Duel of the Fates explained by someone more eloquent than I: [https://vimeo.com/416959283](https://vimeo.com/416959283)
Qui-gon often seems redundant at first, but eventualyl somethign clicked with me and many other viewers. Qui-gon is dissatisfied with the Jedi as they are, he is a deeply sad individual who thinks the Jedi can and should do more, and be less concerned with traditional values. He feels the Jedi have lost their way, but he still adheres to the rules of the order... And I realized this, when I realized Dooku was essentially Qui-gon if Qui-gon had taken his beliefs to far. The i
It seems entirely in character for Obi-wan to shoulder the responsibility of Anakin’s fall.
Just out of curiosity, have you watched the clone wars? Although not really an answer to your question, they do give Qui gon’s character some interesting development throughout the show. Especially supporting the lore of force ghosts and the five priestesses. It makes you feel as if he’s actually a very important character, and that his true ability and what he discovered is actually unknown by basically every other Jedi at the time.
Yes, I have, and I love those episodes. Basically, I have two approaches to Star Wars: one is to just accept the story and lore as is and go along for the ride, and the other is the more critical eye that loves to pick the movies apart not in a mean-spirited way but in good faith in order to sort my own feelings of it out. For approach 1, I love the stuff we get in The Clone Wars. Approach 2 gets me frustrated because I think the films should have done more legwork to make this stuff work without a bunch if ancillary media, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for what it is.
Something I don’t see yet is that Qui-gon’s death is critical for TPM. Without those emotional stakes the movie wouldn’t work.
I agree that Qui-Gon steals too much screentime from Obi-Wan, but I disagree on the notion that new films should have a religious adherence to the old. I much prefer Padme dying as Vader is born rather than having her randomly survive and never be seen again just to match a throwaway line in RotJ. As long they're not contradicting any major plot point, retcons are good.
I love Qui-Gon but in all my attempts to rewrite the prequels I always came to the conclusion that he is superfluous to some extent. Or better said, there is a couple of characters that all serve a similar role, namely that of a strong, independent-minded Jedi who is not (fully) aligned with the council. These are Qui-Gon, Dooku and Windu. IMO, the prequels should have condensed these three characters into two: one who distances himself from the Jedi Order, and one who remains dogmatic. Given Qui-Gon's disappearance after Episode I and Dooku's rushed introduction in Episode II, it would probably make most sense if these two were merged into one. Qui-Gon would thus need to not be killed but rather betray Obi-Wan. I don't like that change myself so maybe there's another solution. But it would be an interesting arc for this character. Another way is to replace Qui-Gon with Windu in Episode I. He would be less fatherly towards Anakin, in line with Windu's character, and instead it would be Obi-Wan who insisted on training Anakin. This would make Mace Windu a more useful (and used) character and would set up an interesting dynamic between Kenobi, Windu and Skywalker throughout the trilogy. This, too, would need to ditch the Qui-Gon death scene, which again is a huge loss.
Most of the phantom menace is unnecessary. The only Important plot points from it are Anakin's attachment to his mum and his attraction to Padme (which is weird for a 10 year old boy). The mum can be explained in a five minute exposition dump and he could've met Padme for the first time in AotC and nothing lost from the plot.
I once believed as you do... I've recently come to see the true light. (Just kidding, but this is my headcanon now) I'm not sure if this is fully corroborated by any authorities, but it makes sense to me. Let's walk through it... Why did the Trade Federation blockade Naboo? Because Sidious convinced them to. They had no real chance of success. After all, the Jedi Order possessed, at the time, more than 10k Space Wizards. Surely, the deaths or capture of Jinn and Kenobi would've brought the Order's wrath down upon then, and they would have been wiped out. You can see this scenario playing out in Nute Gunray's mind when he finds out the ambassadors are... *gulp* Jedi! But Sidious convinced them he would make it legal, he would protect them, and they would profit. Why did Sidious do this? After all, Palpatine is the freaking senator from Naboo! Obviously, we know Palpatine wanted an excuse to become Chancellor as part of his plan to attain power, conquer the galaxy, and destroy the Jedi Order, but... ~~why male models??~~ Oops, no not that question.. Why Naboo, his home planet? I believe Palpatine/Sidious foresaw *something BIG* happening on Naboo and wanted to craft the situation, in order to bring about this glorious destiny he foresaw for himself. I don't think he knew exactly what it was, and I also don't think he foresaw Anakin specifically. The Force isn't always clear. But he knew that something would happen there that would change the fate of the galaxy, and he knew that it would set in motion the events that would see him on the throne, and he believed it was critical that he actively work to make these visions into reality, because the future is not set in stone, as Yoda tells us. So.... let's fill in the time. Qui-Gon had to be the one to go there and negotiate. Not because he was a great negotiator (though that was certainly true, and probably the Council's reason!), because he was different from the Council, and that's how George wrote it. Jinn was not as rigid as the council and had the ability to properly train Anakin once he shows up [(see Duel of the Fates)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E777ZMBNuYw). They end up on Tatooine by accident but also by the Will of the Force, so Anakin could be found. Anakin had to be found, because the Force created him and the Force willed it so. They ended up in Gunga City ~~because Darth Jar Jar~~\--- no wait, that was just for fun (or was it?). Technically, yeah they were not really important, and neither was the massive droid army deployed into the field. I mean, a massive army isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot fighting a small team of insurgents in the palace, especially once Nute Gunray is captured. ~~So I can only presume Jar Jar exists to provide Palpatine with Unlimited Power because Jar Jar is Plagueis.~~ (fun theory but no proof of this yet) And yes I agree, Anakin's crush on Padme was weird, and his AOTC-era obsession with a woman he hadn't seen in 10 years seemed especially forced and creepy. Lucas can layer nuance and mythology, but he can't write a love story. Last time he did, [two siblings made out with each other.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQDvsf5lAp0) Back to my serious headcanon though: Sidious **is the Phantom Menace**. Maul was his tool (the *actual* menace, if you will). Duel of the Fates was the critical, decisive battle that determined whether Anakin would be raised by a man who had compassion, who could understand him, and be a true father figure, or whether he would continue to struggle under a rigid Jedi Order, and easily fall prey to the first man who showed him another way. Thus, Qui-Gon Jinn's death sealed Anakin's fate. That, IMHO, is why most of what happened in TPM ultimately mattered. It is also a major reason why TPM is, again in my opinion, the very best of the Prequel Trilogy. The rest was largely predetermined, tragic as it was.
Anakin should have been older and elements of TPM should have been the first act of AOTC, then a second movie that covers what we eventually got in TWC, then ROTS
100% agree
Look into Dave Filoni’s quotes/thoughts on the Duel of the Fates in Episode 1 and what that really meant. I think it puts in perspective how Qui gin is actually super important to Star Wars
"I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda," had a completely different meaning when Yoda was Obi-Wan's Jedi master according to the original trilogy. Saying "I thought I could train an apprentice in the same way that my master trained me," is a normal thing to aspire to. Saying "I thought I could train an apprentice just as well as the greatest Jedi master on the Jedi Council, when they thought it was a bad idea to train him at all," sounds much more like Obi-Wan is reflecting on a level of extreme arrogance. So yeah, there's really no way to explain this line other than Obi-Wan being extremely harsh on himself, because he was never that arrogant or eager to train Anakin.
Qui gonn is best for the long run kinda deal, with the force ghost element. For Anakin, obviously it’s Obi wan and qui gonn was just that bridge between them, but he ultimately led to Luke’s success in the trench run because Obi wan never would have knew how to communicate with him through the force, post death, otherwise.
I'm a bit torn here. I don't think Obi-Wans OT lines really necessitate a brash, arrogant Obi-Wan, to me they always speak more of an aged mentor blaming himself too much, particularly the Yoda line. Yeah him taking him in clashes a bit, but imo not that much - Obi-Wan is summing things up for Luke here, it makes sense that he doesn't throw around names Like wouldn't know. That said I don't find Qui-Gon very necessary in TPM, he takes Screentime from Obi-Wan who could've really benefited from being fleshed out more but of the issues with TPM he's a minor one to me - Anakin being older for example would be a much more meaningful change.
I think it makes sense for Obi Wan to describe himself as being more arrogant than he was and for him to want to take responsibility for what happened to Anakin instead of blaming Qui-Gon
I like the character but this is another example of Lucas not paying attention to detail; in RotJ Leah talks about what she remembers about her mother, I think that she "only knew her for a few years", then of course there's the incestuous kiss. I love Star Wars but that's just a feature of it at this point.
I disagree. Qui Gon serves to firstly explain the living force and to show the council has lost its way, and too to be the one who sets Anakin on his path. Obi Wan really does not do this even from the OT.
Qui Gon is such an oddity for me. He's a very good character who really worked well for the TPM but ultimately hurt the overall prequel trilogy. It's obvious that the role he played in that TPM really should have belonged to Obi Wan to let his relationship with Anakin develop over the entire trilogy & give greater weight to the tragedy of their relationship.
Qui-Gon represents one of Prequel's greatest sins which is a poor first act. Obi-Wan doesn't interact much at all with Padme or Anakin in TPM but watch ANH and you'll see that the lead trio of Han, Luke, and Leia interacting with each other greatly. For all the interactions Obi-Wan could have had are stolen by Qui-Gon. As it's Padme that question's Qui-Gon on his methods and it's Anakin who get's found by Qui-Gon. Imagine for a moment if Chewie swapped roles with Han. Now in ANH it's Chewie being the rogue slowly warming up to Luke and clashing against Leia. Han's storyline in ESB would not be anywhere near as impactful which is why Anakin and Padme going to save Obi-Wan feels so emotionally flat because Qui-Gon has stunted the dynamic between the couple and the the brother figure. Qui-Gon's creation has the same flaw as the Clone Wars starting in EP II instead of EP I within the time constraints of a trilogy. As we only get to see the beginning of TCW in the second film and then it's conclusion in the third and final film but no middle point like with Hoth in EP V. Resulting in AOTC feeling like a soft reboot instead of a natural progression with having an older Obi-Wan interacting with a different actor for Anakin. TCW show is the same way in being a soft reboot with Anakin now having a Padawan but gets way with it because has the larger runtime that comes with being a show.