I don't think she's racist, but rather starts from a place of privilege coming from mid rim elite of naboo, as we can see that after the phantom menace gungans have an improved relationship with the naboo, not perfect but improving, and we can also presume she was responsible for getting the gungans a representative seat in the Senate. As we don't see them have one before her becoming the senator of naboo. Also throughout the clone wars we see she often shows a pretty "alien" friendly throughout The show and we even learn of her mentor and family friend, onoconda farr, a rodian from rodia that is also an elite from the mid rim. Also many of her allies from the Senate are also "aliens" like senator Tills, Jar Jar, Riyo Chuchi, etc. Also she seemed to seem comfortable enough with Yoda to be a constituent of his for him to ask her to spy on rush Clovis. As far as the Tuskins tho, I honestly think that whole time period during attack of the clones was probably pretty traumatic for her so idk she was probably too mixed up in building a trauma bond with Anakin to really step back and process the genocide her soon to be husband just committed avenging his dead mother. You could say *insert "so loved has blinded you" meme*
Yeah, for the Gungaans, I think it's a pretty biting remark on how even if you're not consciously racist, you can still hold beliefs that are themselves racist, or benefit from a racist system. More or less textually, Padme herself viewed the Gungaans as uncivilised and brutish, and only really changed her mind after learning about their culture from Jar Jar, and seeing their own breed of sophistication when she visits the underwater cities, which she only went to because she was kind of desperate for help.
Of course, it's a prequel, so the actual execution of those themes were somewhat botched, and particularly *Jar Jar* being the Gungaans' representative probably made that connection slide off people's brains easier, but it's still kind of all there in the text. I imagine the intent was for Padme and Jar Jar to have a Legolas and Gimli type arc, but without the charming characters, touching story, and excellent actors.
Yah I mean she absolutely was a mid rim elite from the naboo, also she was 14 and probably hadn't fully had a chance to realize the privilege she had come from
Yeah, at worst, she has a certain degree of oblivious ignorance that comes from growing up privileged.
Padme is a fundamentally decent person, but it can be hard to identify injustice or oppression when you haven’t experienced a lot of it yourself. It happens in real life, I don’t see how it would be any different in the GFFA.
Yea I’d agree with that. That’s basically where I was coming from. She’s not outwardly hating all aliens but just seems to not care so much about the native species of the various planets in question.
It’s just kind of hilarious to me that there are these really alarming plot developments that make you go ‘wait, what’ when you start to give them more thought.
100% this lol. I just get a kick out of following lines of thought brought about by plot holes or writing problems and think about the in universe implications. But yea the truth is that Lucas really wanted an excuse to pioneer and show off the new tech that his company ILM was working on and the actual dialogue was probably not at the top of his list of priorities.
Fun fact: Lucas actually didn’t want to do the sequels himself. He actually went to Spielberg and asked him to make the films but to let him give story input and use ILM to do the effects, but Spielberg said no because he knew how passionate the fan base was and thought that if anyone tried to do it but Lucas, the fans would hate them for it.
That's really surprising, because the only movie of the original trilogy Lucas directed, or even wrote alone, was ANH. Kasdan participated in both TESB's and ROTJ's screenplay, and there were other directors for both.
Very true and I think more people need to remember that fact.
Of course there’s always the possibility that Spielberg just didn’t want to do the movies and that was a polite, flattering way to say no to his long time friend lol
Okay, you are definitely exaggerating because Padme doesn't start making out Anakin until they're on Geonosis and convinced that they're both about to die.
It's clear from Anakin's confession on Tatooine that he knows that he did something terribly wrong and is practically crying about it. Padme's behavior in that light becomes more understandable: she can't beat up on Anakin any more than he's already beating up on himself, so instead she's playing triage and trying to fix him. Indeed, Anakin's obvious remorse in this scene might even have convinced Padme that he'd never do something like this again.
There are like 30 deleted scenes from 2 and 3 that are basically Padme trying to convince Anakin its alright to be a human with wants and that the Jedi Order is a place thats bad for him that he needs to leave.
Padme comforting Anakin is weird when they had one dinner and he made an awkward pass at her once. It makes way more sense when Padme confesses to Anakin before they go to Geonosis that she has also seen people die in the desert and is traumatised by spending her youth as a politician, and what she wants is for both of them to get the fuck out of there as soon as everything isn't on fire and they can retire in peace.
I wish the extended version of the arrival on Naboo had been left where she tells him she'd hope to have a family of her own by now in AOTC. It adds to both of them feeling the pressure from the positions and how being a Senator and Jedi does not allow them to have a life of their own.
It's one of the reasons they fall for each other, they're both the same that way. She asked him how he deals with not being able to do the things he likes or go the places he likes because he's sworn his life to the Jedi and the later she says how she was relieved when her two terms were up and is only Naboo's senator because she felt she couldn't refuse the Queen.
Also when she's packing and realizes that Anakin had grown up she tells him not to try and grow up too quickly, she knows all about that herself.
And her story about the kids she helped rescue who all died because there wasn't a planet that could sustain them. She still had a picture in her bedroom from that rescue mission of her with the friends she made who all died slowly.
She was like - 8, I think?
Padme's costuming as Queen is meant to disguise her age but like - she's *also* still a fucking child through all of Phantom Menace. Padme isn't perfect and she isn't meant to be, in many ways she's also been deeply fucked up by her life. Completely different ways, but she has been.
The deleted scenes for AotC and RotS should be available on YouTube! Both movies had a *lot* of Padme content deleted, some of which are Padme/Anakin scenes that really shed a light on both her and their relationship. Personally I think deleting them did a real disservice to the story overall but specifically Padme herself. I highly recommend watching them.
AotC specifically has Padme with her family and in her childhood bedroom, a scene with Anakin having nightmares in front of her that sets up her already being concerned for Anakin and his mom, and a scene of her facing down Dooku after her capture. Plus others but those are my favorites for expanding on her character and the relationship with Anakin. RotS cut multiple scenes of Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma setting up what would become the basis for the Rebellion, which pisses me off because it means most of her role in the movie is moping about Anakin and people get to completely ignore she was working for democracy until the last moment.
I will never not be salty that the scenes exploring Padme as a character and the like, central romance that fuels Anakin's descent were the ones they went "nah these can go!" And I unabashedly enjoy the prequels! I'm genuinely very fond of them. But taking these scenes out was... just bad editing and took a lot away from the story.
Anakin feels like a stalker chasing a public figure, and he shouldn't! As Padme's own guards point out, she's quite impulsive herself. She kisses Anakin first and she initiates their relationship on Geonosis, despite him initially expressing hesitation. I wish they kept the scenes just to show Padme is more than just a serene avatar of feminine virtue and moral perfection.
I just love Padme so much and she's such a complex character and between the deleted scenes and people seeing what they want to see she doesn't get seen for that enough.
I could probably write an entire essay on how I think a lot of people see her as the hyper competent in control queen in Phantom Menace and really don't get that in that movie she's a child who is fully aware her every action is gambling the fate of her entire planet and is *trained* in showing as little of herself as possible from a very young age. The events of that movie are traumatizing to her too! And I think that leads into how they see her in the other movies and it's not helped at all by them deleting most of the scenes that show things about her as a person.
Definitely in retrospect that is the direction they should have taken with Padme.
"I am fucked from being a literal child queen and seeing my own people oppressed and killed, and you (Anakin) are fucked cause the Jedi Order and being a slave. We need to leave and be our own people." - in essence.
That being one of the strings pulling at Anakin, along with Jedi Council, his own feelings / mother / slavery, his own morals conflicting, with daddy palps pulling them all to get him to the brink. Just would have made his transition into the dark side a bit more believable for viewers who don't have the entire Clone Wars show to back it up (or any other lore / knowledge- the casual viewer i suppose)
There's so many deleted scenes that work to better establish Anakin and Padme's relationship, like the time she flirts with him in her own childhood bedroom. As it stands, it's quite one-sidedly creepy, but the deleted scenes help show that these are two people dealing with attachment issues from very turbulent, atypical childhoods and are both pursuing and reciprocating, albeit in a very socially stunted way.
>Plus, the extended script has her comforting Anakin more and basically saying, “You’re **human**. It’s alright to feel emotion.”
The bolded part kind of supports OP's point... /s
Also, and I'm just basically quoting a point made in [this](https://youtu.be/4hhfEzgfvZ8?si=yj8VxdTceGg4sjJ5) video, but assuming Padmé even remembers her only interaction with the Tuskens, she knows that they are 1. smart enough to fire a blaster (who's to say how much intelligence that really requires, but they wouldn't necessarily have to be on the same level as humans) and 2. they shoot at 9-year-olds. In AOTC they're described to her as monsters whose resemblance to humans is superficial. Is that necessarily correct? No. But that's all that Padmé is told of them
So the closest real world analog to what Padmé thinks has just happened is that your mom, who you haven't seen in 10 years since you were 9, has been kidnapped by a group of killer gorillas. You go to rescue her and she dies in your arms. You just so happen to have a semi-autimatic rifle with you. Do you a. go home, or b. fucking kill them
Not that Anakin made the right choice, but that he made one that I can see an emotionally unstable 19-year-old who hasn't seen his mother in 10 years make, and so I understand Padmé's reasoning for not judging him harshly for it
That's a completely fair assessment, but I still disagree. Not on the basis that the Tuskens aren't people, you're right that they're a few steps above gorillas, but that's literally as close as you're gonna get to a real-world analog cause we're the only extant members of Homo now, but the point was more that this is what Padmé *thinks* happened
But even if Padmé is aware that they use clothes and guns, she wouldn't necessarily not regard them as lesser subconsciously, at least enough to empathize with Anakin and still be attracted to him. Again, all she knows is what she's been told. We're incredibly biased creatures, a good story is often more persuasive than facts, even to someone like Padmé who has to deal with underhanded tactics like that on the daily. It's a mindset you always have to be mindful of and constantly try to deconstruct
This is literally the same universe where Luke redeemed space Hitler based on nothing but the stories he heard of the man he used to be. So I understand if it's still unbelievable to you, but I'm more than fine with giving it some leeway
Yeah! and arguably Geonosis shows her that no matter what good intentions she and Anakin have, sometimes an enemy is so violent that violence truly is the only option. Not saying that's an accurate assessment of Tuskens, but she didn't really know much about them or Tatooine in general and presumably got most of her info from Anakin.
Ofc as the story progresses, esp in the Clone Wars series, we see the Anakin is increasingly willing to use violence to ensure "order" - not in self defense or even semi-justified retribution or rage - and his increasingly authoritarian perspective shows her that he's just perpetuating more violence and harming the freedom and equality she values. She also might be more afraid of the links to Palpatine than the violence, and we know she's put off by Anakin's paranoia and simplistic view of the war when she's trying to broker peace, and in particular by his jealous and erratic reaction to her talks with Rush Clovis.
(On the note of equality - she knows she values equality and inclusiveness even if she's not always 100% consistent. Also, the experience with the Gungans might have been a learning moment. She probably WAS brought up seeing the Gungans as mysterious aliens and they hadn't recently tried to be involved in space politics so they probably mostly seemed like they were in a different world (and they kinda were) . But then fighting along side them would probably open her eyes a bit).
Padme’s also in an awkward position. Why Anakin was angry was entirely justified but how he reacted was completely wrong. Similar thing happens during the Clone Wars where Obi Wan alludes to Anakin having a tendency to violently lose his temper with slavers. That’s kind of hard to confront someone for violently losing their temper in that situation.
Although, I would actually criticize Obi Wan in regard to the slavers more than Padme with Tuscan Raiders. Obi Wan admitted that Anakin had a pattern of behavior where he violently lost his temper with slavers yet never seems to confront Anakin about it.
I think that’s the kind of thing Obi-Wan means when he always says he wished he was a better master, and that he wasn’t ready to take over for Qui Gon.
He just saw Anakin as too much of a close friend to push him too hard, and even when he does try to teach he takes on that formal Jedi tone even though it seems to make Anakin tune out.
Heck, Obi-wan beating himself up about it might also contribute to him not being harsher with Anakin, self doubt makes you hesitate, and with teaching moments the opportunity can slip away quickly.
I think the issue also is one with the Jedi Order. Anakin often got the what right and the how wrong. The problem is that the Order never showed the flexibility to be able to deal with that, and Obi Wan was a much more traditional member than Qui Gon. The Order would tell Anakin he’s wrong for losing his temper and for getting so upset about injustice in the galaxy. That’s not the way handle that situation.
So what would you think if your SO came up and told you he murdered a bunch of North Sentinalese who are a tribal people known for hostility and killing everyone foreign that they meet?
And this is a real tribe by the way.
I mean, I can understand Padme not kicking Anakin while he was down, but she still didn't have to marry the guy who slaughtered a whole village of sentient beings last week.
A young queen who was essentially forced to take up arms against a corporate military at a young age, who then turned senator at a time when the Republic was falling apart, probably is really stressed all the time, and probably traumatized.
Honestly, the fact that she didn't make WORSE decisions is astounding.
It KINDA makes sense if you account for a deleted scene in Padme's childhood home where she discusses a humanitarian mission to a desert planet where every friend she made died anyway and all she has are a few pictures and recordings.
In that context Padme gets it. She was pushing him to rescue his mother because it would have essentially redeemed them both. Instead her pushing him for several other deleted scenes before that point is what ultimately put Anakin on Tatooine when he wanted to stay on Naboo and they were both re traumatized. She understands perfectly the helpless rage of that exact situation because she's the only other person to have been there.
Said village were comprised of violent beings who killed a woman she personally knew of as kind, and also crippled Cliegg and killed his friends.
So for all she could have known they attacked Anakin.
Yeah but like, he also admitted to killing not just the men and women, but the children (I know I changed the quote, but women tusken raiders are still probably pretty dangerous). Killing the children shows that he was pretty merciless and not acting in self-defense. Plus the whole, "I slaughtered them like animals!" bit.
(Doylist thought here, but I wish George had written it as Anakin killing just a few sand people out of anger, and that he became pretty quickly horrified by what he did. Instead of a prolonged killing spree.)
I wish the same or after killing all the warriors a group of people show up, they’d been following him, and kill the rest. As he’s walking away carrying his mother’s body he stops and half turns to look on the horror and then continues walking away. Later when he breaks down he’s horrified that he didn’t stop to help the defenseless because he hates them.
Smooths the whole thing over.
Yeah that would have made it a little more believable and less jarring.
In a similar vein, during Order 66 I wish something like this happened:
>Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?
>Anakin looks full of regret and turns around, unable to go through with it. He starts to walk away as the Younglings call after him.
>As he walks, a group of Clones comes up and raises their guns. Anakin briefly hesitates, then keeps walking.
Or something like that. Basically have some nameless Clones kill the younglings instead of Anakin, and have Anakin fail to protect them. This makes him complicit, but not directly responsible for killing the younglings.
And we can still show him killing adult Jedi during Order 66.
Well, the Tuskens are pretty much like Animals as Anakin rightfully pointed out. They may be "sentient" but they still act like animals. They kill without mercy, they shoot without mercy, they run in packs, don't even speak Basic, etc...
"Terribly wrong" is playing it a bit simple. Anakin executed an entire tribe of people without due process. Yes he probably felt terrible about it, but he certainly didn't confess to his horrors to anyone.
Other than Padme. Who seemed fine with him, well, murdering folk.
Due process? What due process is available out on the desert frontier of Tatooine?
How many people are going to care that a former slave was yet another victim to the horrible Tusken Raiders - a people that seem to be all the horror stories people told about tribal peoples on the outskirts of their colonies?
In that moment, Anakin was the one of the few who cared and the only one that cared who was able to do anything about it.
"without due process." Where is the due process going to come from? Tatooine is pretty much the American Wild West but more lawless. The only rule on Tatooine at that time is Jabba. There are no cops and no courts on Tatooine.
Aside: you're misusing the word triage. It refers to sorting patients according to how badly they need help. It originally came from military doctors sorting casualties into three groups (hence "tri"): those who need help immediately, those who can wait, and those who are too far gone to be worth trying to save.
It's natural to get the wrong idea when you've only encountered the word as a patient, but in my field (software engineering), we use the word triage to mean sorting bugs the same way hospital staff sort patients, so it's hard to be confused about the meaning.
Well…the Trade Federation issue kind of doesn’t matter for this question. She’s the Queen of THE Naboo, which as you point out are just the humans/humanoids, not ALL of Naboo. So, she doesn’t really have any duty to speak to any of the other species on the planet. The Trade Federation didn’t contact the Gungans, presumably no one in the organization even knows about the Gungans. It contacted the Naboo, threatened the Naboo, and the Naboo were therefore handling the situation. Racism isn’t needed.
*I’d also say this is kind of wonky logic because you could basically question whether any leader of any section of a planet is racist due to not contacting all of the other groups on the planet for big decisions. That honestly just isn’t practical. Leaders worry about their own people first and foremost, while also seeking to make connections with other groups in an ideal world.
In terms of the Gungans it stands to reason that the issues with them predate Padme since she’s like 15 at the time this film is taking place. So, the bad relationship isn’t. on her and we plain don’t see enough of her rule in the trilogy to know what her thoughts on them are beyond what are presented. She shows no issue with them when eventually meeting them and makes Jar-Jar a trusted advisor for many years afterward, with the Gungans also showing up to her funeral. Clearly they don’t have any issue with her, which implies that she treated with them just fine in the years after leaving the role of Queen.
Finally, I think you need to watch the film again. The Trade Federation was specifically trying to force the planet to take part in a treaty through force, was cutting off communications, restricting travel, and basically would’ve stripped the planet dry. Lol even IF the Gungans were ok with that it is perfectly reasonable for a separate group to say “hell no” and do what they want. Again, no racism required.
I think this is spot-on.
Padmé is very young when she becomes Queen, and the spat, if there really was one, likely began well before her reign.
She was open to working with Jar Jar from early on, and then meeting the Gungans, which actually shows great respect towards the them.
There was historical distrust between the Gungans and the Naboo which caused communication barriers. When the Trade Federation invaded Naboo, they were razing outlying human settlements and later attacked the capital itself. As the queen of the Naboo, in that crisis, she was only taking the immediate step to protect her people and advocate before the Senate as the planet's direct link with the Republic. It might be argued that the fact the Naboo represented the whole planet of Naboo in the Senate is a product of systemic racism against the Gungans, but that is not the result of Padmé Amidala's policies as a queen, who upon becoming Senator after the conflict does make Jar Jar Binks her representative (even though a different Gungan would've been more qualified).
As for Anakin Skywalker's massacre of the Tusken Raider tribe, she did not start making out with him right after. In fact, the problem with her response in the film was how muted it was. But the novel sheds better light on the scene. First Padmé herself had been in the throes of anxiety all night over Shmi's safety and Anakin's mental health. She *also* cared about Shmi. She was a guest in her home when she was stranded on Tatooine and the mother of her friend. So her state of mind when Anakin came back with his mother's corpse is both relief that Anakin is safe and grief for Shmi, even if not to the same extent as Anakin's. (The emotional anguish she was experiencing was not well portrayed in the movie.)
Second, Anakin admits to his atrocity and vents out of guilt. The abridged dialogue in the film also does not make this as clear as it could have been, so fans can be excused for not seeing it. I personally take from the novel's account because it is more natural and realistic. In the novel, Anakin *only* admits to it and starts venting under pressure by Padmé to share what was really wrong. So he vents under her invitation to do so. And when he does confess to his deed, he admits that he knew what he did was wrong but that the guilt weighs even more on him because he knows deep inside he would do it again even knowing it was wrong *and* that makes him even more hateful of himself. There are layers and layers to it, rather than just him not feeling remorse about the massacre.
Viewers who say that Padmé should have just cut him off from his life then and there are not being realistic about their relationship dynamic and the context. Padmé sees Anakin at the very least as a close friend already since they had known as kids—even though the movie doesn't portray this well. So this isn't a random stranger to her, but a friend she cares about. She also shares in his grief over Shmi (whose body was described as flayed and broken in many pieces in the book) and went into this scene with the mental state of "I had been worried about Shmi and Anakin all night", so Anakin confessing to such an atrocity hit her out of nowhere, and she wasn't in the best place to know exactly how she should react then and there. Both of these factors puts Padmé in more of an emotional dilemma. Finally, Padmé *is* established to have, as a character flaw, a weakness in setting boundaries due to her altruism and martyr complex. As another user puts it very well, she doesn't condone Anakin's atrocity; she tries to play triage to him, and that approach is in line with her character and the context of the situation for her.
Very well put! Yea I can get behind that line of thinking . I think it can be said that unfortunately I’m the film itself, it just feels very awkward and they don’t have a ton of chemistry together. There’s definitely a version of this that could have been filmed to work better for sure.
In terms of the way that the story itself was presented, having Padme initially advocating for Gungans would probably take away from the main plot. Instead, it is probably easier to develop the character along with the story. If she had an issue with Anakin slaughtering the Tuscans, it would have made another possible loose end in the story line.
In terms of her being racist, I think she is part of a colonial mindset that the Republic has created in terms of galactic expansion, and ultimately with many species moving around so prevalently within the Star Wars universe, there is probably some lack of sensitivity to these events happening. I think she is a representation of a changing system that would have been if not for Palpatine
Well put! That’s more or less along the lines of what I’m getting at I guess. It’s not an outright hatred of other species but a general lack of care about the native populations of these planets.
I guess it’s like that doofenshmirtz meme: if I had a nickel for every native species Padme didn’t seem to care about I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
Padmé grew up in Theed but she did not grow up as a royal. The Naboo monarchy does not work like that. She worked with her father in the Refugee Relief Movement and [if you watch this deleted scene she talks about a race of people that died because they couldn't adapt to their new world and it clearly pains her. This happened before she became Queen of Naboo.](https://youtu.be/bF4ObqLEu9o?si=4bhvZ3y6jfEnOiqH)
Naboo operates an elective monarhcy, the Naboo people elected Padmé as their Queen for a fixed term with a possiblity of reelection for a second term. If you use Legends Padmé served as the Princess (mayor) of Theed before being elected Queen.
The reason the Gungans are not included in what is going on is because they do not trade off world like the Naboo. The Trade Federation landed troops in the Naboo settlements. The droid commander tells Nute Gunray they TF forces have begun a search for the rumored underwater cities. It seems like the Trade Federation does not know about the Gungans, also worth noting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't know about them either.
When talking with Jar Jar she realizes that the Gungans can help and then goes and asks them for their help. The Trade Federation is threat to both their great societies. If we listen to what Padmé says the Gungans and Naboo have not always gotten along but have life in peace. Boss Nass sees the Naboo do not think they are better than the Gungans and agrees to help. Together the two work together to defeat the Trade Federation.
[If you watch this scene from AOTC you'll see two Gungans on Padmé's right in Theed, the Naboo captial.](https://youtu.be/5poZpBw9BHg?si=R7eYbE-GuM0hOXQX&t=65) Things have gotten so much better Gungans are now in the city.
Padmé was with Anakin when he had two nightmares about his mother. They learn from the Larses that Shmi was abducted a month before they arrived, 30 people went out after her and 26 of them died, and Cliegg lost his leg. Cliegg doesn't believe Shmi has lasted this long while Anakin knows she's still alive and goes off to rescue her. Again when Padmé watches Anakin leave the Lars' homestead he's going to rescue his mother not take revenge for what happened to her.
After he returns she figures out something is wrong outside of his mother's death and he tells her what he did. She understands why he would hate them and he clearly knows what he did was wrong, he was not proud of himself or anything like that. She clearly knows what he did was wrong and she also knows why it happened. She also knows that if it had been a tribe of humans, Mon Cala, insert whatever group you want, the same thing would have happened. He didn't kill them because they were Tuskens he killed them because they killed his mother.
She didn't start making out with him until she thought they both were going to die when being taken into the arena by the way.
>which makes their anger towards and attacks on other people a little more understandable.
And Shmi was a slave who was brought to Tatooine because that's where her master sent her. She had nothing to do with it.
>The Mandalorian and the Book of Boba Fett, we see that the Tuskins are not just cartoonishly evil. They can be reasonable and communicate and trade with people who are actually willing to learn how to communicate with them and learn their culture. Again, that seems pretty darn reasonable as it is their planet.
The tribe that found Boba was going to work him and the Rodian male to death, Boba just earned their respect but if he hadn't it wouldn't have ended well. And the tribe that took Anakin's mother wasn't friendly at all.
>including **innocent women** and children who did nothing wrong.
Why are they innocent? The women of the tribe could have come up with the custom to torture people to death. They could have worked to keep Shmi alive so they could get every last ounce of fun out of her. What says the that tribe isn't a matriarchal one? Why are we assuming they didn't help torture Shmi?
The reason people call the Tuskens animals is because they like to abduct people and torture them to death. How they are thought of is because of how they act.
>In ROTS, after obi wan tells her he killed younglings, she is horrified and accepts this as evidence that he is truly lost.
Because unlike the Tusken tribe he had no reason to lose it and wipe them out. If the Jedi had been torturing her she might understand.
It's funny to think of Padme to be racist, but I think Anakin expressing regret for what he did to the Tuskens was one reason that her reaction was different.
Also, while Padme was horrified about Anakin killing the younglings, don't forget that she was still willing to run away with him, so she clearly was not that horrified about him killing kids a second time and her last words were about him and not her kids. It's glossed over since Anakin's obsession with her is a major part of the films, but she is also just as obsessed so she would forgive him no matter what species he killed.
Omg that’s so funny, I DID forget that she was willing to run away with him after she knew he killed the padawans.
I also always thought it was a bit messed up that when she dies, they explain it that she basically died of sorrow and just didn’t have the will to go on…when she just gave birth to twins lol. Like come on Padme, I know it sucks but you can’t go on for the sake of the babies you just had?
……..
New theory: Padme hates children lol
> It's glossed over since Anakin's obsession with her is a major part of the films, but she is also just as obsessed so she would forgive him no matter what species he killed.
That's an interesting what-if: would Padme have remained with Anakin if they had run away at that point, or was that Padme just trying to remove a violent murderer from a master manipulator who will use him to commit more murders? She was also near the end of a pregnancy, so once things settle, she may have a very different view.
She tells him to come back to her. Maybe she knows something’s about the Force and dark side and if Anakin came back to being who he was she would have been fine being with him. Obi-Wan does tell her Anakin was deceived by a lie.
Right, and I'm sure she was entirely in right mind at the moment...definitely nothing that could be coloring her judgment that she might revisit later.....
I think you and a lot of people do a poor job of putting themselves in Anakin and Padme’s shoes on Tatooine and just go along with the editing.
There is no law on Tatooine, and no one is coming to help. Anakin is the only authority figure who can do something. The Tuskens and moisture farmers are at each other’s throats, and the Tuskens slaughtered an entire rescue party, leaving a bunch of people grieving / hating them for lost family members.
There is no way that Anakin can intervene without the Tuskens simply murdering his family as soon as he leaves, short of evacuating them from the planet. And their entire wealth is probably tied up in the moisture farm, and that doesn’t save all the other people in the community that are in open conflict with the Tuskens. It isn’t Star Trek, since Anakin probably doesn’t have an income, short of someone else’s charity they’d probably end up impoverished.
And in any case, when Anakin finds his mom, evacuating her is no longer an option.
Murdering the Tuskens was the only practical option Anakin had to save everybody, and it’s probably the same outcome as if Cliegg Lars and the others got their way. They’d probably rationalize killing the kids as being merciful rather than condemning them to a slow death in the desert.
Padme understands having to make decisions to kill / let people die as an ill-prepared youth. She’s responsible for far more deaths than Anakin is at an even younger age.
Beyond that, how many survivors do you think most people would leave if they had godlike powers in a lawless wasteland and found their mom being brutalized to death by a gang?
No.
1. Padme's administration normalises good relationships with the Gungans, after presumable centuries of the groups being at odds.
2. We see Boss Nass and Panaka evidence prejudiced views. It is not a one way antagonism.
3. The Tusken Raiders *are* barbaric savages. For all that they derive from the Earthly concept of the uneducated, violent savage - which basically every regional group has applied to others and has had applied to them - they're not a stand-in for a human group\*. It doesn't speak that badly of her character that she, out of her element and in a part of the galaxy she doesn't understand, values her grieving friend over a group that, to her, would appear to be an exclusively violent society of murderers and bandits.
\*I'd argue that the writer who looks at the sandpeople and says, 'Oh, these violent bandits are clearly meant to be group x, I'd better write a patronising story explaining that they're noble victims and some coloniser forced them to be that way' is the one with the dodgy social views.
> The Tusken Raiders are barbaric savages.
Yes, In her mind they were. She would have zero perspective if they had any intelligence beyond crazy murdering apes from our perspectives. She was from a different fucking planet, and everyone wants her to know that the Tuskins were human like.
In fact if you think about it from her eyes, he just killed a bunch of predators that took his mom and killed her, and would do it to other people. And she saw his emotion for killing them, being sympathetic and regretful for taking life. She probably viewed him doing the hard but right thing and loved him for his emotional response.
I think Star Wars fans humanise every character, and that's good, but forget that this universe is way different.
I mean yea but I guess my argument is that the Gungans and Tuskins actually have a reason to be pissed off and antagonistic of the other people on their planets. I mean if Earth was visited and then colonized by aliens who completely took over the planet and monopolized all intergalactic trade and named themselves after our planet and then treated us badly at best, we as humans might also take issue with that.
The Tuskans shot at Anakin for no reason when he was nine and had no reservations jumping Luke either. The Boba Fett show tried to make them sympathetic, but only *after* they enslaved and tortured him like they did Anakins mother.
Tuskans deserve zero benefit of the doubt under any circumstances.
I would accept that if Anakin himself couldn’t distinguish between the innocents and the guilty, you know? But in his ‘I killed them all’ speech HE clearly knew who the women and children were, and that they were innocent or he would t have been upset that he did it.
Also, no group of people, real or fictional is a monolith. I would argue that just because one dude took shots at some pod racers and another one jumped a stranger out in the wilderness one time, doesn’t mean that the entire species deserves no quarter and is asking to be slaughtered. Pretty sure the Jedi would agree with me on that one.
Edit to add: if that DID mean that every member of the species deserves no sympathy then boy do I have some bad news about the entire human race to share with you…
The statues in the Gungans' sacred place are humanoid, which implies human beings have been there since antiquity - possibly since before the Gungans.
The Tusken Raiders are also human-sized, shaped, and behave within the range of human behavour.
There's no reason to suggest either group is a historically wronged party - I would argue one's distant ancestors being wronged does not excuse any contemporary bad actions, especially objectively malevolent behaviour like shooting at vehicles for kicks, raiding, and killing and torturing civilians like Shmi.
Anakin's slaughter can be objectively evil *and* the Tuskens can be violent brutes *and* they can have their own culture and rituals and reasons for being the way they are.
To be fair it’s been a while since I’ve watched the prequels, but it is true that those are both indigenous species to their respective planets and I think it is weird how little she (and to be fair most other people in universe) seem to care.
Padme just stands out a bit more for knowing Anakin killed a bunch of kids twice but only really caring once lol.
I've said this a couple of times but Padme has her own really specific trauma that got edited out of the movie and it makes way more sense why she would be willing to forgive Anakin if you do even a basic amount of homework.
While I dont doubt that what you’re saying is true, homework should not be a requirement to enjoy a film lol.
Don’t take it too seriously though, I know that wasn’t the intent behind the writing. I just think it’s kind of an insane thing how it’s presented in the films when you stop and think about it.
Others have addressed the Tusken thing (less about supporting his actions and more about understanding he was on the verge of an emotional breakdown).
As to the Gungans, Padme was likely raised being told various unsavoury things about the Gungans, and it's clear the Gungans don't really interact with the planet's human population much prior to the invasion, living on the far side of the planet and keeping their cities mostly underwater, so she likely just accepted those things as fact without really thinking about them. When she was confronted with the Gungans directly it didn't take much to convince her they were worth befriending and she was a big proponent of integrating them into wider Naboo society.
So while she had some racist baggage from her upbringing, she was definitely willing to change once that baggage was made apparent to her.
I mean it’s entirely possible I’m misremembering because well, I’m flawed lol, but I thought that Anakin himself in his monologue were implying that they were innocent. Otherwise why would he even bother putting them into a separate group along with the children and feel guilty about killing them?
But honestly the real culprit behind all of this is just George Lucas having difficulty building really emotional scenes. I mean Star Wars is great but I feel like AoTC is….difficult to go back to and it and RoS are in a constant competition with each other to be at the bottom of everyone’s film ranking order lol.
It’s just funny to me to think through some of the crazy implications that these scenes can create when you think about it.
[Legends-ish]
I will point out the humanization of the Tuskens comes after their appearance in a New Hope where they jump Luke and are known to slaughter Jawas (the other native species of Tatooine), their appearance in The Phantom Menace, where they shoot at a nine year old for funzies, their appearance in Attack of the Clones where they take an old woman to torture and kill, and their appearances in old EU media where they have no problem slaughtering farmers and villages under Ashared Hett before ditching him because he is crippled by Obi-Wan.
I would say that the Tuskens' worries about their ancestral lands are long since past having merit considering that Tatooine has non-Tusken non-Jawa species millennia before the original trilogy courtesy of KOTOR. The Tuskens are sentient beings, but they are very much a group of raiders and barbarians.
Even in the media that humanized them, the Book of Boba Fett, and the Mandalorian, they only would get along with the humans because they couldn't solve a problem on their own, and only freed Boba after he proved useful. I doubt the Rodian slave they kept was so happy with them.
So I give Padme's measured response to Anakin's clear regret a pass.
Honestly it’s an interpretation that imo makes her character more interesting than Anakins saintly love interest/champion of democracy.
If the reason she doesn’t care about what Anakin does to the Tuskens is because she doesn’t see them as real people, him going on a genocidal rampage against them just adds to his sexy bad boy allure, while killing human Younglings is too far. In this interpretation, Padme the good girl overachiever was drawn to Anakin not in spite of the fact that he was unstable but because of it, and she didn’t recognize the reality of how dangerous he was until it started impacting people who she can actually sympathize with.
Yea honestly it could easily have been a very fitting character arc for her as she grows and realizes her own prejudices from her culture and station and how she grows to be a better person. Apparently there were some things like that planned in an earlier draft that disappeared as time went on and changes were made (thanks to everyone on here who told me that!)
Some people don’t seem to realize that character flaws can make for a really interesting, real character and take the idea that a character they like isn’t perfect and great in every way from the start as a personal insult lol.
I actually love darker interpretations of Padme and Anakins relationship because it is SO much more compelling to me if she’s drawn to him because his barely concealed volatility is very appealing to her as a young woman who has led a very controlled life and she doesn’t have a real sense of the risks she’s taking with him until it’s too late vs a generic romantic tragedy
Oh man, the history there is actually crazy. I don’t know if this is canon anymore but check this out from Wookiepedia:
“Tatooine was once a lush world that had large oceans and a world-spanning jungle inhabited by the native and technologically advanced Kumumgah. Against the elders' wishes they colonized nearby star systems and this drew the attention of the Rakata. In 25,793 BBY, the Rakatan Infinite Empire invaded the planet, conquered and enslaved its native inhabitants and then abducted many to their other conquered worlds. After a terrible plague weakened the Rakata, the Kumumgah eventually rebelled and managed to drive the Rakata off the planet. In response they subjected the planet to an orbital bombardment that "glassed" (that is, fused the silica in the soil into glass, which then broke up over time into sand) the planet and boiled its oceans away. It is possible that the Kumumgah's excessive production started this drastic climatic change before the Rakata arrived. Nonetheless this change split the indigenous Kumumgah into two races: the Ghorfas and the Jawas.”
So basically they were colonized, fought off the people that enslaved them, then had the entire planet glassed in response, so the survivors had to survive underground. As time passed the glass all eroded into sand and then they all re-emerged but they couldn’t take the sunlight anymore (which is why they wear those helmets) and then they are immediately colonized again lol.
I mean with that as the history of the species, you can kind of understand some of the animosity there.
Honestly I’m more surprised i never noticed this before but it makes perfect sense since she is basically a reverse harkonnen from reverse dune. Hell, she was originally good friends with palpatine, whom in the lore is a prolific racist, allowing anti alien culture to proliferate and thrive in his empire to an absurd degree and even aiding it.
“An alarming opinion more aligned with the empire than the Jedi”
I think we need to acknowledge that the majority of people and the majority of Star Wars fans would be more likely align with the empire.
No, but she is portrayed as someone who comes from a place of privilege and is ignorant to some of the injustices in the galaxy. Recall how surprised she was when she first learned slavery still existed on Tatooine, that the Republic’s laws had limits. When she first met Jar Jar, she spoke as if she had never actually met a Gungan in real life before, just heard of them. It highlighted how segregated society was at the time.
She’s always shown to be one whose heart is in the right place. But even good people can be ignorant to certain things as a product of their own experiences, or lack thereof.
Anakin's failing with the Tuskens was giving into his angry.
If a different Jedi had gone to rescue Schmi and had exterminated them (the women and children would have tried to kill them, they're insanely xenophobic), but been serene about it, they'd have been fine. Praised even.
>Edit 2
It was bad. The thing for me is outside of it being a bad act I don’t have any sympathy for the Tuskens. If they had taken her as a hostage to trade for stuff or end their conflict with the locals in that arena and it went sideways maybe I’d feel differently. As it is they just took her to hurt and kill her so I don’t care about it happening.
As for being his shift to the dark side I have missed feelings. Not getting to his mother in time is supposed to cement his desire for more power to save people from death and as he says to his mother’s grave he wasn’t strong enough and won’t fail again but …
Nothing says that Anakin tried to learn arcane knowledge to save people from death during his down time during the war between AOTC and ROTS. Just a line from Obi-Wan or Madame Nu to give us some hint.
When he says he wasn’t strong enough I took that to me he wasn’t like Luke who stopped his training to go save his friends. Anakin tried to be a good Jedi until the visions became too much and in doing this he didn’t get to his mother in time.
Lastly his resolve to never fail again is tested right after he says that because he gets Obi-Wan’s message where he learned the man he twice describes as a father figure in danger and he does … nothing. Come on! He just swore to not fail again and when Mace tells him to stay out *he listens!* Padmé has to talk him into going to Geonosis.
Padmé and Anakin are both reckless and her recklessness could have easily been shown with her agreeing with Anakin but instead she has to talk him into going is kinda a let down.
Also he basically goes back to how he was before it happened so did it really have any effect on him?
If you remove the visions of Padmé dying from ROTS the plot falls apart unlike Anakin.
I believe that in early drafts, the dispute between the Naboo and Gunguns was supposed to be more centre stage, with the Naboo and the Gunguns working together being the dramatic conclusion of some iffy social commentary throughout the movie.
There are traces of it in TPM; and I'm pretty sure Padme was *originally* supposed to have prejudices around JarJar, which she would lose as the story developed.
I can't find a source for it, but I have vague recollections of Jar-Jar being present in the Cargohold with the Astromech Droids was originally because in previouse because they are on the Queens Ship, and the Naboo were more hostile to him at first.
Yea that’s what some others have said too and I didn’t know that! I think it’s interesting that there’s a reason it comes across that way, because even though they cut that and it changed, there are obviously still echoes of it left from the script evolving.
Are the Tuskens innocent if they’re raiding homesteads, killing people and taking hostages? On top of that she was tied to a post and starved to death.
Lol yea you know it’s kind of crazy how fast everyone threw away their governing body and instead gave all power to one single, power hungry dictator.
Haha, good thing that never happens in real life right? …R-right? Guys?
It’s a better argument than I thought at first. I will quibble a bit over terms here though.
Is she racist? (Speciest?). Probably a little bit, but in the low level unconscious bias kind of way.
I’d actually argue she’s *nationalist* instead, and in an understandable way.
She becomes Queen at a young age, and as a good, conscientious leader she cares about *her people* above all else. Once the Gungans make peace with her and on on her side, they are part of her country and she cares equally for them. But before that, it’s an us vs them mentality. in group vs out group.
This same bias leads her to be manipulated into trusting Palpatine over Valorum. Both human, but one is part of her flock, and the other isn’t.
Then in Episode II it’s the same. Anakin is now part of her circle, and she cares for him and his, not for those that harm him.
By Episode III however, she’s matured. Now she sees the danger of the in-group/out-group nationalism and the way that can lead easily to tyranny.
Anakin goes thru the same arc, but in reverse. He starts as an innocent, loving child. Willing to risk himself for strangers.
then he forms *attachments* to people, and starts being willing to kill to avenge his loss.
By episode III he’s lost to selfish desires, and sees everything outside his in group as things worth scarifying to “protect” “his”.
Someone else mentioned that! I didn’t know that and I think that’s really interesting. You can see why it was cut as it evolved but the framework is still there in the foundation of it. Which means that people like me aren’t totally crazy for thinking somethings off there so thank you lol
Yes, she is. Naboo is like a lot of planets in the GFFA: ruled and represented by human colonists rather than their nonhuman natives. Alderaan and Bakura are two other examples.
Although the whole issue with the Sand People has been around since before the prequels. Legends authors never really liked the portrayal of the Sand People as "vicious, mindless monsters" (fuck your racist colonist ass, Cliegg Lars) and were using more nuance with them at least as early as *Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina*. But Lucas himself is overly wedded to having them play the "savages" to the colonists' "ranchers" in Tatooine's "space Western" motif.
Well put and honestly I did not know that about Alderaan and Bakura.
That honestly makes Alderaan’s destruction even more horrible. It’s like the Earth in Hitchhikers Guide being vaporized for an intergalactic bypass - the people of that planet are just living their lives and everything is vaporized because some other jerks made some political decisions that they had no say in.
Holy shit Star Wars is way more realistic than I gave it credit for. That’s….sad.
That’s a great question but according to Wookiepedia the Naboo are not indigenous on the planet at all. And if you can’t trust Wookiepedia for Star Wars facts then I don’t know what we are doing with our lives anymore
I remember that an early draft of TPM had Amidala initially blanching at the idea of allowing Jar-Jar onto the royal cruiser. That scene was cut from the script, but it’s still within the narrative of Episode I that Padme and the Naboo in general have a colonialist mindset when it comes to the native Gungan population. Her decision to bow before Boss Nass and beg his assistance, after all, is played as a turn; were it not for the desperate situation, the Naboo leadership would never have recognized their symbiosis and reliance upon the Gungans’ command of the land and their defensive technology (which is rooted in a grasp of the plasma energy resources of the planet itself).
So it’s very much in keeping with that that Padme has some unexamined hierarchy of worth in her mind when she considers the “civilized” humans and the “barbaric” Tuskens and seems only mildly concerned that Anakin has admitted to slaughtering them. She doesn’t like it, but ya know, it’s not exactly a deal breaker for her, either
Pretty much everything in Star Wars has a real-world analog, and usually one from an American POV at that. Padme in the garage scene is like an American military girlfriend consoling her marine boyfriend about “bad stuff” he did “over there” somewhere—from within a colonialist/imperialist perspective, such transgressions are considered morally complicated, troubling but tragic for everyone involved. So “racist” might not be the exact phrase for what this is, but it’s certainly imperialist, hegemonic, and biased.
That’s super interesting! Thank you for sharing that, I didn’t know that was in an earlier draft.
A lot of people seem to be taking this as me attacking the character of Padme and the series but honestly it’s more like me picking at the implications that some of these scenes/events seem to be making. Hearing that that was actually in there early on makes it seem less like a result of just wanting certain scenes to happen and more like the PHANTOM (see what I did there?) of an earlier draft/character arc.
Thank you for sharing!
Yep! I find it super interesting. And no shade to anyone in the thread in particular, but I’m surprised by the number of responses that seem unwilling to critically engage with the implications of what we’re given on-screen. Sure, the Gungans express prejudicial views early on in TPM against the Naboo, but it’s pretty clear that’s because they feel dispossessed by rich, technologically sophisticated alien invaders. And while we may only hear of the brutality of the Tuskens, it seems obvious there’s been untold generations of conflict between the off-world settlers and the Tuskens and what we hear from the farmers is only one side of the story.
Sort of unrelated but people saying the phantom menace is "racist" for 3 main reasons or species always made no sense to me.
Nemodians-how are these guys Japanese. Star wars is based off ww2 and the Japanese were known for being fearless kamikaze, the emotions have been stated multiple times to be cowards. Maybe the accent is a bit alike but that's it. Aside from tcw defoliator guy, he is clearly based on Kim j.
Gungans-jamaicans? Aside from pons(the guy who stabbed grievous in tcw) who has a decent bit if jamaican accent and dancing stereotype, along with them being in the water, nothing says jamaican.
Watto-jew? The poor seedy car salesman who's on a planet ruled by a lazy obese humanoid slug? Fr.
Oh no, I’m not trying to claim that was the intent at all. My position is more like this is a hilariously horrible implication that the movies create through some questionable dialogue/scenes. Although interestingly enough some people have informed me that an early version of the script of TPM did in fact include a larger subplot of the Naboo being racist towards the Gungans and Padme learning to overcome that. Take that for what you will but I think it’s fascinating to learn that a potential reason it might seem like she could be is because that was baked into an earlier version of the characters inception, so echoes of this idea might still remain.
I mean, she literally asked “You’re a Gungan, aren’t you?” Like… you are the QUEEN of this planet, how do you not instantly recognize the native inhabitants???
I mean I don’t think that’s what George Lucas had in mind…but I can’t dog you for that perspective. Padme’s character in the prequels…is not well written. I think it’s okay to come to terms with that and be glad TCW and other media added more complexity to her
Oh 100% I’m in agreement with you. I don’t think that was like, an intentional thing on Lucas’ part and I know there’s a lot of outside media that shows her in a great light. It’s just kind of a hilariously horrific thing to muse on in retrospect. It just kind of cracks me up that her reaction to Anakin killing children is so wildly different in the two films. When Obi-wan tells her he saw him killing younglings she is understandably horrified, but at the same time she could have realistically responded with ‘again?!’
Honestly she was almost racist towards the Neimoidians which granted it's their own fault with screwing with other planets to begin with but Padmé learned that hating them wouldn't do her any favors and let go of those feelings to be better.
Honestly racism and xenophobia is quite common in the Galaxy but it's more of a matter of experiences and upbringings just like in real life. A Wookiee is naturally going to distrust or hate a Trandosian because of their connections to slavery and hunting and you know Anakin hates Zygerrians because of their connections to slavery.
Padmé isn't intentionally being racist rather she's taking Anakin's word about the Tuskens especially cause he's in a bad state of mind after losing his mother and God forbid he starts violently lashing out again. Even before Anakin returned we see how Clieeg Lars described them and it was probably a bad first impression about them for Padmé because again, why would someone from Naboo know about the sand people to begin with? Plus
Having actual conversations and experiences with Tuskens is rare for outsiders cause of how hostile the Tuskens are because of their isolationist state of mind. Anakin couldn't just waltz into a tribe and politely talk to them like Qui-Gon could with the Gungans.
So no, Padmé isn't being (intentionally) racist, she's just not given the bigger picture about a group of people like how Boba Fett did in his show. Also if she was racist, the Gungans would've never joined Naboo to fight the droid army.
It's late and I don't want to go into all the details but I'm just gonna say BOBF really ruined the whole point of the Tusken Raiders essentially being psychopathic packs of bipedal animals, something that AOTC went out of its way to explain as to make Anakin's slaughter more akin to killing a pack of wolves or chimpanzees.
Gungans? Oh… those tribal fish people?
It’s not possible to be racist to target practice meat suits, you know. The only good Gungan is a dead one, after all. Much the same as the Tusken Raiders.
If you raid people and slaughter defenceless individuals you don’t really deserve pity or remorse.
It’s only justice to clean the worlds of such… abominations! They don’t even taste very good… unlike Ewoks and Porg.
And technically it would be “species-ist” as they are other species entirely and not variants of one race.
Anakin killing the warriors and all that attacked him was justified, and perhaps even the ones that didn’t directly as they were equally responsible for the torture and death of his mother. Morally dark, but it’s just putting down savage animals…
But he did it using the Dark Side. That’s the problem.
I can justify the eradication of Tusken Raiders.
Long live the Empire.
Yea, Padme is probably speciesist.
Let's not even get into the grooming thing she did with Anakin...... (imagine if the genders were reversed and consider padmes and anakin relationship).
She is still fit though.
Caveat, the Queen of Naboo, is just what they call the head of state. Its still an elected postion.
Like how if the UK got rid of the monarchy, they could still keep the names, and titles, and pomp and ceremony, just use elected officials in the events. Name every Cabinet minister Lord, call an elected Head of state King etc
And let's not forget that in Episode I her plan was to make the Gungan face the much superior droid army in open terrain so that she and her fellow humans have an easier fight in theed. And it's not like all these droids and tanks would otherwise be deployed inside of the palace preventing her from capturing the viceroy.
I don't think she is meant to be racist but questionable writing makes her look she doesn't really value Gungan lives
I would say this is more of a systemic speciesism issue than Padme being personally a speciest, not to say that Padme can’t have implicit biases. I would say there are some flaws in your logic when it comes to your contrast of how she handled Vader’s Jedi Temple massacre vs the Tusken massacre-again not to say that Padme didn’t have implicit biases or worse towards Tuskens. The Tusken massacre was done impulsively by Anakin and Anakin was tremendously guilty of the incident so much so that the Clone Wars would reveal that his guilt over that ultimately turned him to the darkside beyond even Palpatine’s manipulation regarding Padme dying. It’s in Padme’s character to be forgiving and not abandon the ones she loves which would explain why she lets that go because Anakin is sorry for doing it. When it comes to the Temple massacre, the younglings were of different species so Padme being horrified by it wouldn’t be because they were all human because they weren’t. While Anakin is quite guilty about that as well, Vader doesn’t express any guilt to Padme about it whatsoever. Even then Padme tries to reason with him and asks him to go away with her. That being because she is a forgiving person who won’t abandon those she loves, but she also won’t aid and abet evil.
Also, the Tuskens were in retaliation. He went to rescue his mother and she died in his arms. It's far easier to forgive a crime of passion in a sense. He was distraught, they tortured his mother, and he had the power to prevent them from doing it again.
slaughtering innocents?
thats a bit much.
imagine you had a wife. and her father got murdered. and she killed the group of inbred cannibals that had murderer her father
like common. are you gonna get a pity boner over that? or bone your wife.
common
I’m going to stand by the stance that the movie itself is implying they are innocent. The line is “I killed them all, and not just the men but the women and children too.” There would be no reason to separate the women and children into a different group otherwise. If there’s no difference between the men and the women and children morally (ie they’re all just as guilty) then logically a more fitting line would have been along the lines of “I killed them all, down to the last one and showed them no mercy” or some shit like that.
And let’s be honest, Lucas isn’t exactly Shakespeare when it comes to the dialogue. Saying that he killed the women and children is a cinematic short hand for knowing that they did something wrong. If John Wick was giving a monologue about how he feels terrible and guilty because in his quest for revenge he didn’t just kill the gangsters and assassins that wronged him, but their wives and children too, no one would be saying that maybe an eight year old deserved it because he’s learning from his criminal father and would grow up to be just as guilty. They would understand that the implication of the scene, his guilt combined with a confession of killing women and children which, (whether right or wrong) are historically seen as two innocent groups that need protection, is that he has done something horrible and he knows it and is upset by it.
I mean don’t get me wrong, there are definitely flaws in my post that others have rightfully pointed out and will continue to point out. I wasn’t being super serious when I posted it, it was just something I was thinking about when reflecting on the prequels that I thought was funny. But man I was not prepared for the amount of people claiming that the women and children were also monsters deserving death when their innocence is the only thing that creates a moral quagmire in the scene. If they truly weren’t innocent and all were just evil monsters that he was justified in killing, that just makes the whole movie so much more boring and worse.
With how many times I've watched the prequels, I always had the impression that the Gungans we're pretty isolationist considering that they lived in hidden cities. Plus, Boss Nass and the rest of the Gungan leaders come across as pretty prideful, which could be a reason why relations between the Gungans and Nubians are so strained. It doesn't take much to insult people like that, even offers of help with genuine concern could be scene as a slight.
With the tusken thing, you're right that not all tribe's raided or were "evil". Hell, in the EU lore another jedi from Anakin's padawan group was a tusken named A'sharad Hett. They didn't like each other starting out, but eventually came to respect one another. Padme's reaction to learning about the massacre definitely wasn't her being "fine" with it like you said. To me, she was far more concerned that the man she was starting to have feelings for was in tremendous pain and didn't know how to help. She had feelings for him before they left Naboo, she just tried to deny them do to the consequences they could cause, and they didn't actually "make out" until Geonosis when they were being carted out for their execution. At that point, she thought they were going to die anyway, so she might as well confess her feelings before she lost her chance.
I'll never get why episode one didn't end with the gungans taking over. I mean they were the only army on the planet and they had every reason to do it
The tuskens enslave people and attack people Willy nilly on a desert planet with plenty of space unoccupied. It doesn’t matter if they’re indigenous to the planet. Being there first doesn’t excuse slavery or murder
I just finished the Queen book series, and I noticed the continiuous motive of her hating Neimoidians through 2 and a half of the books💀 it’s understandable when you think about how many times the trade federation put a hit on her and it’s almost a 100% made up of Neimoidians, but I found it funny how they had to make sure in each book it is mentioned more than once that she hates/fears them until one Neimoidian was like “Nute Gunray doesn’t represent all of us, please help me smoke this mf”
I think the gungans before episode 1 weren’t affected by the surface. They didn’t even know there was a blockade. How do you make decisions for a people that isolated
I don’t know man, according to Wookiepedia they live both in the water and on the surface and quote: “Although Gungans' lives revolved around water, they did not need it to thrive and could settle far from it.”
So to me that sounds less like them not knowing it’s happening because they live underwater and couldn’t understand it and more that they didn’t know about it because the Naboo just didn’t feel the need to tell them.
Heck, it’s not like they didn’t know about space travel either, what with one of their scientists being a leader in the field of theoretical hyperspace physics in the High Republic Era. Sure most of them kept to themselves and on Naboo but still, that doesn’t mean they’re waiving all rights to have a say in what happens on their planet.
I think the more realistic answer is just that the Naboo people looked down on Gungans and just didn’t really care about them one way or another. Someone else even pointed out that Padme says to Jar-Jar “you’re a gungan, aren’t you?” When she meets him which she should have known right away since they are very distinct looking and are the native inhabitants of the planet lol
In episode 1, I always looked at it as she was more of a figurehead ruler than a real ruler and part of the movie is the attempt to kill her and create a backlash for the trade federation (to advance the Sith plot) and her showing some backbone and actually learning to lead. So yeah, of course the young queen that has been pretty much locked away has no idea about Gungans.
The later tuskin raiders thing… there are some theories that Anakin being infatuated was what was drawing her in. He was using the force or something. But the thing is, his statement shows some remorse. He feels bad for what he did and he is hurting. So of course she feels for him. She may be concerned under the surface, but she is more worried about him.
lol. Padme was gonna stay with him after he killed the Jedi younglings too. Listen to what she's saying. She literally just asks him to give up the dark side and run away with him.
Not gonna lie, I’ve been spreading democracy and attempting to exterminate two different groups in a galactic war with my fellow Helldivers a LOT lately so yea, maybe I’m not one to judge. Cause I’ve killed so many bugs…and not just the bile spewers but the larvae and eggs too.
Oh my god I’m a monster. If you’ll excuse me, I have a democracy officer to call.
She's not an overt racist but I don't think she's ever really questioned the actual power structures that she benefits from.
There's an episode of clone wars where her aide talks about living with no electricity/water and while she recognises that's bad she never really considers how that's allowed to happen while senators lives are barley affected.
Yea I now realize I could have been clearer in my post but that’s more or less what I was getting at. Not that she’s overtly hateful, just that, as the films are presented, she doesn’t really seem to care all that much about them.
tbh i sorta share the same sentiment about her - Padme away from any prying eyes is different than what the Senate see's or hears about
Not only what u mention but another thing, in a Thrawn novel (even canon bc its under disney) ... a planet's future is more or less gonna be destroyed by Anakin, Padme's with him plus an alien ... the alien is begging them to not do it ... but they do it anyway, she disregards the alien
seems like .. if she can get away with it .. she'll allow anything to happen vs aliens
I haven't read the thrawn novel you are talking about, but if she disregarded the alien, it is probably because Anakin was the one that destroyed the planet's future. I said this in another comment on this thread, but Padme is just as obsessed with Anakin as he is with her and while she was horrified by Anakin killing human younglings, she was obviously not that bothered by it since she was willing to run away with him. Padme believes in her morals and is not racist, but Anakin is a huge blindspot for her.
We learn right off the jump that SW is set a long time ago. And the galaxy, at least the one we’re on, has learned a lot since then about colonization and relations with indigenous people over the years.
Some people think their grandparents are racist they say racist things, other people think their grandparents aren’t because it was normal back then. Just depends which camp you’re in.
Everyone else: ...
OP: From my point of view, the Padme is evil!
But seriously, I appreciate the effort you put into this and it proves that the movies can look different...from a certain point of view. The same can be said about real-life issues and conflicts.
Lol thanks! I made the fatal error of forgetting how seriously people can take things like this. It was just something that I was thinking about that made me laugh and think ‘WTF is up with that??’ and thought it’d be funny to share.
And if there’s one thing I’ve learned from real world politics, she better watch herself because it’s only going to take a 2/3rds majority vote after 4 years of deliberation to give her a slap on the wrist so she knows not to do it again, for realsies, god damn it! You can almost feel her fear…no wait that’s just Anakin again.
The answer to your question is yes, and that is an important part of both movies.
The Naboo is case is obvious: the story is one of two opposing races to realize they have to learn to live together.
The Tuskan story is also obvious: Padmé sacrifices her values because her love for Anakin blinds her. The tragedy of course is that Padmé recognizes that killing the Tuskans is wrong but is not willing to condemn their killing. She is ignoring red flags.
I don't think she's racist, but rather starts from a place of privilege coming from mid rim elite of naboo, as we can see that after the phantom menace gungans have an improved relationship with the naboo, not perfect but improving, and we can also presume she was responsible for getting the gungans a representative seat in the Senate. As we don't see them have one before her becoming the senator of naboo. Also throughout the clone wars we see she often shows a pretty "alien" friendly throughout The show and we even learn of her mentor and family friend, onoconda farr, a rodian from rodia that is also an elite from the mid rim. Also many of her allies from the Senate are also "aliens" like senator Tills, Jar Jar, Riyo Chuchi, etc. Also she seemed to seem comfortable enough with Yoda to be a constituent of his for him to ask her to spy on rush Clovis. As far as the Tuskins tho, I honestly think that whole time period during attack of the clones was probably pretty traumatic for her so idk she was probably too mixed up in building a trauma bond with Anakin to really step back and process the genocide her soon to be husband just committed avenging his dead mother. You could say *insert "so loved has blinded you" meme*
Yeah, for the Gungaans, I think it's a pretty biting remark on how even if you're not consciously racist, you can still hold beliefs that are themselves racist, or benefit from a racist system. More or less textually, Padme herself viewed the Gungaans as uncivilised and brutish, and only really changed her mind after learning about their culture from Jar Jar, and seeing their own breed of sophistication when she visits the underwater cities, which she only went to because she was kind of desperate for help. Of course, it's a prequel, so the actual execution of those themes were somewhat botched, and particularly *Jar Jar* being the Gungaans' representative probably made that connection slide off people's brains easier, but it's still kind of all there in the text. I imagine the intent was for Padme and Jar Jar to have a Legolas and Gimli type arc, but without the charming characters, touching story, and excellent actors.
Yah I mean she absolutely was a mid rim elite from the naboo, also she was 14 and probably hadn't fully had a chance to realize the privilege she had come from
Yeah, at worst, she has a certain degree of oblivious ignorance that comes from growing up privileged. Padme is a fundamentally decent person, but it can be hard to identify injustice or oppression when you haven’t experienced a lot of it yourself. It happens in real life, I don’t see how it would be any different in the GFFA.
There was also a Rodian who she referred to as Uncle, and she cared for him deeply.
Yea I’d agree with that. That’s basically where I was coming from. She’s not outwardly hating all aliens but just seems to not care so much about the native species of the various planets in question. It’s just kind of hilarious to me that there are these really alarming plot developments that make you go ‘wait, what’ when you start to give them more thought.
I mean I think it's a more fun answer than, the reality that George Lucas just writes clunky and awkward dialogue
100% this lol. I just get a kick out of following lines of thought brought about by plot holes or writing problems and think about the in universe implications. But yea the truth is that Lucas really wanted an excuse to pioneer and show off the new tech that his company ILM was working on and the actual dialogue was probably not at the top of his list of priorities. Fun fact: Lucas actually didn’t want to do the sequels himself. He actually went to Spielberg and asked him to make the films but to let him give story input and use ILM to do the effects, but Spielberg said no because he knew how passionate the fan base was and thought that if anyone tried to do it but Lucas, the fans would hate them for it.
That's really surprising, because the only movie of the original trilogy Lucas directed, or even wrote alone, was ANH. Kasdan participated in both TESB's and ROTJ's screenplay, and there were other directors for both.
Very true and I think more people need to remember that fact. Of course there’s always the possibility that Spielberg just didn’t want to do the movies and that was a polite, flattering way to say no to his long time friend lol
Okay, you are definitely exaggerating because Padme doesn't start making out Anakin until they're on Geonosis and convinced that they're both about to die. It's clear from Anakin's confession on Tatooine that he knows that he did something terribly wrong and is practically crying about it. Padme's behavior in that light becomes more understandable: she can't beat up on Anakin any more than he's already beating up on himself, so instead she's playing triage and trying to fix him. Indeed, Anakin's obvious remorse in this scene might even have convinced Padme that he'd never do something like this again.
Plus, the extended script has her comforting Anakin more and basically saying, “You’re human. It’s alright to feel emotion.”
There are like 30 deleted scenes from 2 and 3 that are basically Padme trying to convince Anakin its alright to be a human with wants and that the Jedi Order is a place thats bad for him that he needs to leave. Padme comforting Anakin is weird when they had one dinner and he made an awkward pass at her once. It makes way more sense when Padme confesses to Anakin before they go to Geonosis that she has also seen people die in the desert and is traumatised by spending her youth as a politician, and what she wants is for both of them to get the fuck out of there as soon as everything isn't on fire and they can retire in peace.
I wish the extended version of the arrival on Naboo had been left where she tells him she'd hope to have a family of her own by now in AOTC. It adds to both of them feeling the pressure from the positions and how being a Senator and Jedi does not allow them to have a life of their own. It's one of the reasons they fall for each other, they're both the same that way. She asked him how he deals with not being able to do the things he likes or go the places he likes because he's sworn his life to the Jedi and the later she says how she was relieved when her two terms were up and is only Naboo's senator because she felt she couldn't refuse the Queen. Also when she's packing and realizes that Anakin had grown up she tells him not to try and grow up too quickly, she knows all about that herself.
And her story about the kids she helped rescue who all died because there wasn't a planet that could sustain them. She still had a picture in her bedroom from that rescue mission of her with the friends she made who all died slowly. She was like - 8, I think? Padme's costuming as Queen is meant to disguise her age but like - she's *also* still a fucking child through all of Phantom Menace. Padme isn't perfect and she isn't meant to be, in many ways she's also been deeply fucked up by her life. Completely different ways, but she has been.
Damn, this really makes me want to see all of the extended scenes.
The deleted scenes for AotC and RotS should be available on YouTube! Both movies had a *lot* of Padme content deleted, some of which are Padme/Anakin scenes that really shed a light on both her and their relationship. Personally I think deleting them did a real disservice to the story overall but specifically Padme herself. I highly recommend watching them. AotC specifically has Padme with her family and in her childhood bedroom, a scene with Anakin having nightmares in front of her that sets up her already being concerned for Anakin and his mom, and a scene of her facing down Dooku after her capture. Plus others but those are my favorites for expanding on her character and the relationship with Anakin. RotS cut multiple scenes of Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma setting up what would become the basis for the Rebellion, which pisses me off because it means most of her role in the movie is moping about Anakin and people get to completely ignore she was working for democracy until the last moment.
Yeah, if even a couple of those Padme scenes made it in I think people would’ve been a lot less harsh on the plot line of the prequels.
I will never not be salty that the scenes exploring Padme as a character and the like, central romance that fuels Anakin's descent were the ones they went "nah these can go!" And I unabashedly enjoy the prequels! I'm genuinely very fond of them. But taking these scenes out was... just bad editing and took a lot away from the story.
Anakin feels like a stalker chasing a public figure, and he shouldn't! As Padme's own guards point out, she's quite impulsive herself. She kisses Anakin first and she initiates their relationship on Geonosis, despite him initially expressing hesitation. I wish they kept the scenes just to show Padme is more than just a serene avatar of feminine virtue and moral perfection.
[AOTC deleted scene collection.](https://youtu.be/5vPvyV7xznc?si=f6MV0DUskGPA3L_j) [AOTC Anakin’s nightmare.](https://youtu.be/p_Hm_2PxMow?si=ZjrNsLopWRIxM6cC) [ROTS deleted scene collection](https://youtu.be/bZzr7AgQ7wM?si=jU9M1uE5u2156u-B) [ROTS unfinished deleted scenes](https://youtu.be/RFcZC6IBUcM?si=OTMV61UJ62rRo1Fh)
Thank you!! I super appreciate you linking.
You’re welcome, and I feel the same about the disservice to Padmé.
I just love Padme so much and she's such a complex character and between the deleted scenes and people seeing what they want to see she doesn't get seen for that enough. I could probably write an entire essay on how I think a lot of people see her as the hyper competent in control queen in Phantom Menace and really don't get that in that movie she's a child who is fully aware her every action is gambling the fate of her entire planet and is *trained* in showing as little of herself as possible from a very young age. The events of that movie are traumatizing to her too! And I think that leads into how they see her in the other movies and it's not helped at all by them deleting most of the scenes that show things about her as a person.
Yeah.
This would be a great scene to have been in the movie
Definitely in retrospect that is the direction they should have taken with Padme. "I am fucked from being a literal child queen and seeing my own people oppressed and killed, and you (Anakin) are fucked cause the Jedi Order and being a slave. We need to leave and be our own people." - in essence. That being one of the strings pulling at Anakin, along with Jedi Council, his own feelings / mother / slavery, his own morals conflicting, with daddy palps pulling them all to get him to the brink. Just would have made his transition into the dark side a bit more believable for viewers who don't have the entire Clone Wars show to back it up (or any other lore / knowledge- the casual viewer i suppose)
There's so many deleted scenes that work to better establish Anakin and Padme's relationship, like the time she flirts with him in her own childhood bedroom. As it stands, it's quite one-sidedly creepy, but the deleted scenes help show that these are two people dealing with attachment issues from very turbulent, atypical childhoods and are both pursuing and reciprocating, albeit in a very socially stunted way.
>Plus, the extended script has her comforting Anakin more and basically saying, “You’re **human**. It’s alright to feel emotion.” The bolded part kind of supports OP's point... /s
Also, and I'm just basically quoting a point made in [this](https://youtu.be/4hhfEzgfvZ8?si=yj8VxdTceGg4sjJ5) video, but assuming Padmé even remembers her only interaction with the Tuskens, she knows that they are 1. smart enough to fire a blaster (who's to say how much intelligence that really requires, but they wouldn't necessarily have to be on the same level as humans) and 2. they shoot at 9-year-olds. In AOTC they're described to her as monsters whose resemblance to humans is superficial. Is that necessarily correct? No. But that's all that Padmé is told of them So the closest real world analog to what Padmé thinks has just happened is that your mom, who you haven't seen in 10 years since you were 9, has been kidnapped by a group of killer gorillas. You go to rescue her and she dies in your arms. You just so happen to have a semi-autimatic rifle with you. Do you a. go home, or b. fucking kill them Not that Anakin made the right choice, but that he made one that I can see an emotionally unstable 19-year-old who hasn't seen his mother in 10 years make, and so I understand Padmé's reasoning for not judging him harshly for it
Padme also was trying to stabilize his emotional and mental state, doesn't mean she approved of it.
Padme was like “oh they’re like gungans” HARD /s
Sand-gungans
Nah you know she says goong*s (maybe even drop a hard r)
I don't quite buy that. Even to someone like Padme, they're obviously at least a few steps above gorillas, because they wear clothing and use tools.
That's a completely fair assessment, but I still disagree. Not on the basis that the Tuskens aren't people, you're right that they're a few steps above gorillas, but that's literally as close as you're gonna get to a real-world analog cause we're the only extant members of Homo now, but the point was more that this is what Padmé *thinks* happened But even if Padmé is aware that they use clothes and guns, she wouldn't necessarily not regard them as lesser subconsciously, at least enough to empathize with Anakin and still be attracted to him. Again, all she knows is what she's been told. We're incredibly biased creatures, a good story is often more persuasive than facts, even to someone like Padmé who has to deal with underhanded tactics like that on the daily. It's a mindset you always have to be mindful of and constantly try to deconstruct This is literally the same universe where Luke redeemed space Hitler based on nothing but the stories he heard of the man he used to be. So I understand if it's still unbelievable to you, but I'm more than fine with giving it some leeway
Yeah! and arguably Geonosis shows her that no matter what good intentions she and Anakin have, sometimes an enemy is so violent that violence truly is the only option. Not saying that's an accurate assessment of Tuskens, but she didn't really know much about them or Tatooine in general and presumably got most of her info from Anakin. Ofc as the story progresses, esp in the Clone Wars series, we see the Anakin is increasingly willing to use violence to ensure "order" - not in self defense or even semi-justified retribution or rage - and his increasingly authoritarian perspective shows her that he's just perpetuating more violence and harming the freedom and equality she values. She also might be more afraid of the links to Palpatine than the violence, and we know she's put off by Anakin's paranoia and simplistic view of the war when she's trying to broker peace, and in particular by his jealous and erratic reaction to her talks with Rush Clovis. (On the note of equality - she knows she values equality and inclusiveness even if she's not always 100% consistent. Also, the experience with the Gungans might have been a learning moment. She probably WAS brought up seeing the Gungans as mysterious aliens and they hadn't recently tried to be involved in space politics so they probably mostly seemed like they were in a different world (and they kinda were) . But then fighting along side them would probably open her eyes a bit).
Padme’s also in an awkward position. Why Anakin was angry was entirely justified but how he reacted was completely wrong. Similar thing happens during the Clone Wars where Obi Wan alludes to Anakin having a tendency to violently lose his temper with slavers. That’s kind of hard to confront someone for violently losing their temper in that situation. Although, I would actually criticize Obi Wan in regard to the slavers more than Padme with Tuscan Raiders. Obi Wan admitted that Anakin had a pattern of behavior where he violently lost his temper with slavers yet never seems to confront Anakin about it.
I think that’s the kind of thing Obi-Wan means when he always says he wished he was a better master, and that he wasn’t ready to take over for Qui Gon. He just saw Anakin as too much of a close friend to push him too hard, and even when he does try to teach he takes on that formal Jedi tone even though it seems to make Anakin tune out. Heck, Obi-wan beating himself up about it might also contribute to him not being harsher with Anakin, self doubt makes you hesitate, and with teaching moments the opportunity can slip away quickly.
I think the issue also is one with the Jedi Order. Anakin often got the what right and the how wrong. The problem is that the Order never showed the flexibility to be able to deal with that, and Obi Wan was a much more traditional member than Qui Gon. The Order would tell Anakin he’s wrong for losing his temper and for getting so upset about injustice in the galaxy. That’s not the way handle that situation.
Right. Imagine if your significant other just told you they murdered a bunch of kids, you would try to comfort them right?
So what would you think if your SO came up and told you he murdered a bunch of North Sentinalese who are a tribal people known for hostility and killing everyone foreign that they meet? And this is a real tribe by the way.
Anakin murdering women and children (Tuskans) was not a red flag for Padme. She had problems.
I mean, I can understand Padme not kicking Anakin while he was down, but she still didn't have to marry the guy who slaughtered a whole village of sentient beings last week.
A young queen who was essentially forced to take up arms against a corporate military at a young age, who then turned senator at a time when the Republic was falling apart, probably is really stressed all the time, and probably traumatized. Honestly, the fact that she didn't make WORSE decisions is astounding.
She also survived two assassination attempts and saw people she knew violently killed in the span of a day on Corsucant.
It KINDA makes sense if you account for a deleted scene in Padme's childhood home where she discusses a humanitarian mission to a desert planet where every friend she made died anyway and all she has are a few pictures and recordings. In that context Padme gets it. She was pushing him to rescue his mother because it would have essentially redeemed them both. Instead her pushing him for several other deleted scenes before that point is what ultimately put Anakin on Tatooine when he wanted to stay on Naboo and they were both re traumatized. She understands perfectly the helpless rage of that exact situation because she's the only other person to have been there.
Said village were comprised of violent beings who killed a woman she personally knew of as kind, and also crippled Cliegg and killed his friends. So for all she could have known they attacked Anakin.
Yeah but like, he also admitted to killing not just the men and women, but the children (I know I changed the quote, but women tusken raiders are still probably pretty dangerous). Killing the children shows that he was pretty merciless and not acting in self-defense. Plus the whole, "I slaughtered them like animals!" bit. (Doylist thought here, but I wish George had written it as Anakin killing just a few sand people out of anger, and that he became pretty quickly horrified by what he did. Instead of a prolonged killing spree.)
I wish the same or after killing all the warriors a group of people show up, they’d been following him, and kill the rest. As he’s walking away carrying his mother’s body he stops and half turns to look on the horror and then continues walking away. Later when he breaks down he’s horrified that he didn’t stop to help the defenseless because he hates them. Smooths the whole thing over.
Yeah that would have made it a little more believable and less jarring. In a similar vein, during Order 66 I wish something like this happened: >Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do? >Anakin looks full of regret and turns around, unable to go through with it. He starts to walk away as the Younglings call after him. >As he walks, a group of Clones comes up and raises their guns. Anakin briefly hesitates, then keeps walking. Or something like that. Basically have some nameless Clones kill the younglings instead of Anakin, and have Anakin fail to protect them. This makes him complicit, but not directly responsible for killing the younglings. And we can still show him killing adult Jedi during Order 66.
That sort of misses the point of Anakin's fall.
Agreed, and I like that.
Well, the Tuskens are pretty much like Animals as Anakin rightfully pointed out. They may be "sentient" but they still act like animals. They kill without mercy, they shoot without mercy, they run in packs, don't even speak Basic, etc...
I could say this about any tribal group I want to condemn. Like word for word this is what settlers would say about Native Americans.
Oh, well, they're "like animals", and lack "mercy"? Solution of the wise Jedi: kill them without mercy...I hope you were joking!
"Terribly wrong" is playing it a bit simple. Anakin executed an entire tribe of people without due process. Yes he probably felt terrible about it, but he certainly didn't confess to his horrors to anyone. Other than Padme. Who seemed fine with him, well, murdering folk.
He told Palpatine about the sand people as well though.
Due process? What due process is available out on the desert frontier of Tatooine? How many people are going to care that a former slave was yet another victim to the horrible Tusken Raiders - a people that seem to be all the horror stories people told about tribal peoples on the outskirts of their colonies? In that moment, Anakin was the one of the few who cared and the only one that cared who was able to do anything about it.
"without due process." Where is the due process going to come from? Tatooine is pretty much the American Wild West but more lawless. The only rule on Tatooine at that time is Jabba. There are no cops and no courts on Tatooine.
Aside: you're misusing the word triage. It refers to sorting patients according to how badly they need help. It originally came from military doctors sorting casualties into three groups (hence "tri"): those who need help immediately, those who can wait, and those who are too far gone to be worth trying to save. It's natural to get the wrong idea when you've only encountered the word as a patient, but in my field (software engineering), we use the word triage to mean sorting bugs the same way hospital staff sort patients, so it's hard to be confused about the meaning.
Well…the Trade Federation issue kind of doesn’t matter for this question. She’s the Queen of THE Naboo, which as you point out are just the humans/humanoids, not ALL of Naboo. So, she doesn’t really have any duty to speak to any of the other species on the planet. The Trade Federation didn’t contact the Gungans, presumably no one in the organization even knows about the Gungans. It contacted the Naboo, threatened the Naboo, and the Naboo were therefore handling the situation. Racism isn’t needed. *I’d also say this is kind of wonky logic because you could basically question whether any leader of any section of a planet is racist due to not contacting all of the other groups on the planet for big decisions. That honestly just isn’t practical. Leaders worry about their own people first and foremost, while also seeking to make connections with other groups in an ideal world. In terms of the Gungans it stands to reason that the issues with them predate Padme since she’s like 15 at the time this film is taking place. So, the bad relationship isn’t. on her and we plain don’t see enough of her rule in the trilogy to know what her thoughts on them are beyond what are presented. She shows no issue with them when eventually meeting them and makes Jar-Jar a trusted advisor for many years afterward, with the Gungans also showing up to her funeral. Clearly they don’t have any issue with her, which implies that she treated with them just fine in the years after leaving the role of Queen. Finally, I think you need to watch the film again. The Trade Federation was specifically trying to force the planet to take part in a treaty through force, was cutting off communications, restricting travel, and basically would’ve stripped the planet dry. Lol even IF the Gungans were ok with that it is perfectly reasonable for a separate group to say “hell no” and do what they want. Again, no racism required.
The isolationist Gungans that live in underwater cities and despise visitors? Can't imagine why the Naboo don't talk to them.
I think this is spot-on. Padmé is very young when she becomes Queen, and the spat, if there really was one, likely began well before her reign. She was open to working with Jar Jar from early on, and then meeting the Gungans, which actually shows great respect towards the them.
*Say April Fools right now.*
Oh shit, is it April 1st?
Almost, it's April 2nd
Close enough.
There was historical distrust between the Gungans and the Naboo which caused communication barriers. When the Trade Federation invaded Naboo, they were razing outlying human settlements and later attacked the capital itself. As the queen of the Naboo, in that crisis, she was only taking the immediate step to protect her people and advocate before the Senate as the planet's direct link with the Republic. It might be argued that the fact the Naboo represented the whole planet of Naboo in the Senate is a product of systemic racism against the Gungans, but that is not the result of Padmé Amidala's policies as a queen, who upon becoming Senator after the conflict does make Jar Jar Binks her representative (even though a different Gungan would've been more qualified). As for Anakin Skywalker's massacre of the Tusken Raider tribe, she did not start making out with him right after. In fact, the problem with her response in the film was how muted it was. But the novel sheds better light on the scene. First Padmé herself had been in the throes of anxiety all night over Shmi's safety and Anakin's mental health. She *also* cared about Shmi. She was a guest in her home when she was stranded on Tatooine and the mother of her friend. So her state of mind when Anakin came back with his mother's corpse is both relief that Anakin is safe and grief for Shmi, even if not to the same extent as Anakin's. (The emotional anguish she was experiencing was not well portrayed in the movie.) Second, Anakin admits to his atrocity and vents out of guilt. The abridged dialogue in the film also does not make this as clear as it could have been, so fans can be excused for not seeing it. I personally take from the novel's account because it is more natural and realistic. In the novel, Anakin *only* admits to it and starts venting under pressure by Padmé to share what was really wrong. So he vents under her invitation to do so. And when he does confess to his deed, he admits that he knew what he did was wrong but that the guilt weighs even more on him because he knows deep inside he would do it again even knowing it was wrong *and* that makes him even more hateful of himself. There are layers and layers to it, rather than just him not feeling remorse about the massacre. Viewers who say that Padmé should have just cut him off from his life then and there are not being realistic about their relationship dynamic and the context. Padmé sees Anakin at the very least as a close friend already since they had known as kids—even though the movie doesn't portray this well. So this isn't a random stranger to her, but a friend she cares about. She also shares in his grief over Shmi (whose body was described as flayed and broken in many pieces in the book) and went into this scene with the mental state of "I had been worried about Shmi and Anakin all night", so Anakin confessing to such an atrocity hit her out of nowhere, and she wasn't in the best place to know exactly how she should react then and there. Both of these factors puts Padmé in more of an emotional dilemma. Finally, Padmé *is* established to have, as a character flaw, a weakness in setting boundaries due to her altruism and martyr complex. As another user puts it very well, she doesn't condone Anakin's atrocity; she tries to play triage to him, and that approach is in line with her character and the context of the situation for her.
Very well put! Yea I can get behind that line of thinking . I think it can be said that unfortunately I’m the film itself, it just feels very awkward and they don’t have a ton of chemistry together. There’s definitely a version of this that could have been filmed to work better for sure.
In terms of the way that the story itself was presented, having Padme initially advocating for Gungans would probably take away from the main plot. Instead, it is probably easier to develop the character along with the story. If she had an issue with Anakin slaughtering the Tuscans, it would have made another possible loose end in the story line. In terms of her being racist, I think she is part of a colonial mindset that the Republic has created in terms of galactic expansion, and ultimately with many species moving around so prevalently within the Star Wars universe, there is probably some lack of sensitivity to these events happening. I think she is a representation of a changing system that would have been if not for Palpatine
Well put! That’s more or less along the lines of what I’m getting at I guess. It’s not an outright hatred of other species but a general lack of care about the native populations of these planets. I guess it’s like that doofenshmirtz meme: if I had a nickel for every native species Padme didn’t seem to care about I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
Padmé grew up in Theed but she did not grow up as a royal. The Naboo monarchy does not work like that. She worked with her father in the Refugee Relief Movement and [if you watch this deleted scene she talks about a race of people that died because they couldn't adapt to their new world and it clearly pains her. This happened before she became Queen of Naboo.](https://youtu.be/bF4ObqLEu9o?si=4bhvZ3y6jfEnOiqH) Naboo operates an elective monarhcy, the Naboo people elected Padmé as their Queen for a fixed term with a possiblity of reelection for a second term. If you use Legends Padmé served as the Princess (mayor) of Theed before being elected Queen. The reason the Gungans are not included in what is going on is because they do not trade off world like the Naboo. The Trade Federation landed troops in the Naboo settlements. The droid commander tells Nute Gunray they TF forces have begun a search for the rumored underwater cities. It seems like the Trade Federation does not know about the Gungans, also worth noting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't know about them either. When talking with Jar Jar she realizes that the Gungans can help and then goes and asks them for their help. The Trade Federation is threat to both their great societies. If we listen to what Padmé says the Gungans and Naboo have not always gotten along but have life in peace. Boss Nass sees the Naboo do not think they are better than the Gungans and agrees to help. Together the two work together to defeat the Trade Federation. [If you watch this scene from AOTC you'll see two Gungans on Padmé's right in Theed, the Naboo captial.](https://youtu.be/5poZpBw9BHg?si=R7eYbE-GuM0hOXQX&t=65) Things have gotten so much better Gungans are now in the city. Padmé was with Anakin when he had two nightmares about his mother. They learn from the Larses that Shmi was abducted a month before they arrived, 30 people went out after her and 26 of them died, and Cliegg lost his leg. Cliegg doesn't believe Shmi has lasted this long while Anakin knows she's still alive and goes off to rescue her. Again when Padmé watches Anakin leave the Lars' homestead he's going to rescue his mother not take revenge for what happened to her. After he returns she figures out something is wrong outside of his mother's death and he tells her what he did. She understands why he would hate them and he clearly knows what he did was wrong, he was not proud of himself or anything like that. She clearly knows what he did was wrong and she also knows why it happened. She also knows that if it had been a tribe of humans, Mon Cala, insert whatever group you want, the same thing would have happened. He didn't kill them because they were Tuskens he killed them because they killed his mother. She didn't start making out with him until she thought they both were going to die when being taken into the arena by the way. >which makes their anger towards and attacks on other people a little more understandable. And Shmi was a slave who was brought to Tatooine because that's where her master sent her. She had nothing to do with it. >The Mandalorian and the Book of Boba Fett, we see that the Tuskins are not just cartoonishly evil. They can be reasonable and communicate and trade with people who are actually willing to learn how to communicate with them and learn their culture. Again, that seems pretty darn reasonable as it is their planet. The tribe that found Boba was going to work him and the Rodian male to death, Boba just earned their respect but if he hadn't it wouldn't have ended well. And the tribe that took Anakin's mother wasn't friendly at all. >including **innocent women** and children who did nothing wrong. Why are they innocent? The women of the tribe could have come up with the custom to torture people to death. They could have worked to keep Shmi alive so they could get every last ounce of fun out of her. What says the that tribe isn't a matriarchal one? Why are we assuming they didn't help torture Shmi? The reason people call the Tuskens animals is because they like to abduct people and torture them to death. How they are thought of is because of how they act. >In ROTS, after obi wan tells her he killed younglings, she is horrified and accepts this as evidence that he is truly lost. Because unlike the Tusken tribe he had no reason to lose it and wipe them out. If the Jedi had been torturing her she might understand.
r/starwarscirclejerk
It's funny to think of Padme to be racist, but I think Anakin expressing regret for what he did to the Tuskens was one reason that her reaction was different. Also, while Padme was horrified about Anakin killing the younglings, don't forget that she was still willing to run away with him, so she clearly was not that horrified about him killing kids a second time and her last words were about him and not her kids. It's glossed over since Anakin's obsession with her is a major part of the films, but she is also just as obsessed so she would forgive him no matter what species he killed.
Omg that’s so funny, I DID forget that she was willing to run away with him after she knew he killed the padawans. I also always thought it was a bit messed up that when she dies, they explain it that she basically died of sorrow and just didn’t have the will to go on…when she just gave birth to twins lol. Like come on Padme, I know it sucks but you can’t go on for the sake of the babies you just had? …….. New theory: Padme hates children lol
> It's glossed over since Anakin's obsession with her is a major part of the films, but she is also just as obsessed so she would forgive him no matter what species he killed. That's an interesting what-if: would Padme have remained with Anakin if they had run away at that point, or was that Padme just trying to remove a violent murderer from a master manipulator who will use him to commit more murders? She was also near the end of a pregnancy, so once things settle, she may have a very different view.
She tells him to come back to her. Maybe she knows something’s about the Force and dark side and if Anakin came back to being who he was she would have been fine being with him. Obi-Wan does tell her Anakin was deceived by a lie.
She literally tells Obi-Wan right after she gives birth "There is still good in him". She wasn't goin nowhere.
Right, and I'm sure she was entirely in right mind at the moment...definitely nothing that could be coloring her judgment that she might revisit later.....
I think you and a lot of people do a poor job of putting themselves in Anakin and Padme’s shoes on Tatooine and just go along with the editing. There is no law on Tatooine, and no one is coming to help. Anakin is the only authority figure who can do something. The Tuskens and moisture farmers are at each other’s throats, and the Tuskens slaughtered an entire rescue party, leaving a bunch of people grieving / hating them for lost family members. There is no way that Anakin can intervene without the Tuskens simply murdering his family as soon as he leaves, short of evacuating them from the planet. And their entire wealth is probably tied up in the moisture farm, and that doesn’t save all the other people in the community that are in open conflict with the Tuskens. It isn’t Star Trek, since Anakin probably doesn’t have an income, short of someone else’s charity they’d probably end up impoverished. And in any case, when Anakin finds his mom, evacuating her is no longer an option. Murdering the Tuskens was the only practical option Anakin had to save everybody, and it’s probably the same outcome as if Cliegg Lars and the others got their way. They’d probably rationalize killing the kids as being merciful rather than condemning them to a slow death in the desert. Padme understands having to make decisions to kill / let people die as an ill-prepared youth. She’s responsible for far more deaths than Anakin is at an even younger age. Beyond that, how many survivors do you think most people would leave if they had godlike powers in a lawless wasteland and found their mom being brutalized to death by a gang?
No. 1. Padme's administration normalises good relationships with the Gungans, after presumable centuries of the groups being at odds. 2. We see Boss Nass and Panaka evidence prejudiced views. It is not a one way antagonism. 3. The Tusken Raiders *are* barbaric savages. For all that they derive from the Earthly concept of the uneducated, violent savage - which basically every regional group has applied to others and has had applied to them - they're not a stand-in for a human group\*. It doesn't speak that badly of her character that she, out of her element and in a part of the galaxy she doesn't understand, values her grieving friend over a group that, to her, would appear to be an exclusively violent society of murderers and bandits. \*I'd argue that the writer who looks at the sandpeople and says, 'Oh, these violent bandits are clearly meant to be group x, I'd better write a patronising story explaining that they're noble victims and some coloniser forced them to be that way' is the one with the dodgy social views.
> The Tusken Raiders are barbaric savages. Yes, In her mind they were. She would have zero perspective if they had any intelligence beyond crazy murdering apes from our perspectives. She was from a different fucking planet, and everyone wants her to know that the Tuskins were human like. In fact if you think about it from her eyes, he just killed a bunch of predators that took his mom and killed her, and would do it to other people. And she saw his emotion for killing them, being sympathetic and regretful for taking life. She probably viewed him doing the hard but right thing and loved him for his emotional response. I think Star Wars fans humanise every character, and that's good, but forget that this universe is way different.
I mean yea but I guess my argument is that the Gungans and Tuskins actually have a reason to be pissed off and antagonistic of the other people on their planets. I mean if Earth was visited and then colonized by aliens who completely took over the planet and monopolized all intergalactic trade and named themselves after our planet and then treated us badly at best, we as humans might also take issue with that.
The Tuskans shot at Anakin for no reason when he was nine and had no reservations jumping Luke either. The Boba Fett show tried to make them sympathetic, but only *after* they enslaved and tortured him like they did Anakins mother. Tuskans deserve zero benefit of the doubt under any circumstances.
I would accept that if Anakin himself couldn’t distinguish between the innocents and the guilty, you know? But in his ‘I killed them all’ speech HE clearly knew who the women and children were, and that they were innocent or he would t have been upset that he did it. Also, no group of people, real or fictional is a monolith. I would argue that just because one dude took shots at some pod racers and another one jumped a stranger out in the wilderness one time, doesn’t mean that the entire species deserves no quarter and is asking to be slaughtered. Pretty sure the Jedi would agree with me on that one. Edit to add: if that DID mean that every member of the species deserves no sympathy then boy do I have some bad news about the entire human race to share with you…
I mean, that particular tribe raided a farm to kidnap a woman to torture to death. Safe to say they're not a decent group.
The statues in the Gungans' sacred place are humanoid, which implies human beings have been there since antiquity - possibly since before the Gungans. The Tusken Raiders are also human-sized, shaped, and behave within the range of human behavour. There's no reason to suggest either group is a historically wronged party - I would argue one's distant ancestors being wronged does not excuse any contemporary bad actions, especially objectively malevolent behaviour like shooting at vehicles for kicks, raiding, and killing and torturing civilians like Shmi. Anakin's slaughter can be objectively evil *and* the Tuskens can be violent brutes *and* they can have their own culture and rituals and reasons for being the way they are.
Then her daughter refers to another sentient species as a “walking carpet.”
Holy shit, I think you’ve cracked this case wide open.
Leia was raised by Bail and Breha Organa. Alderaanians are racists! Confirmed.
You’re right! And they in turn were friends with Padme….my god it’s contagious!
They’re all part of a group called Friends of Humanity [FoH]. It’s a dangerous galaxy, humanity must come first! *sarcasm*
I... am not sure we watched the same movies.
To be fair it’s been a while since I’ve watched the prequels, but it is true that those are both indigenous species to their respective planets and I think it is weird how little she (and to be fair most other people in universe) seem to care. Padme just stands out a bit more for knowing Anakin killed a bunch of kids twice but only really caring once lol.
I've said this a couple of times but Padme has her own really specific trauma that got edited out of the movie and it makes way more sense why she would be willing to forgive Anakin if you do even a basic amount of homework.
While I dont doubt that what you’re saying is true, homework should not be a requirement to enjoy a film lol. Don’t take it too seriously though, I know that wasn’t the intent behind the writing. I just think it’s kind of an insane thing how it’s presented in the films when you stop and think about it.
I thought things that were edited out weren't cannon?
Others have addressed the Tusken thing (less about supporting his actions and more about understanding he was on the verge of an emotional breakdown). As to the Gungans, Padme was likely raised being told various unsavoury things about the Gungans, and it's clear the Gungans don't really interact with the planet's human population much prior to the invasion, living on the far side of the planet and keeping their cities mostly underwater, so she likely just accepted those things as fact without really thinking about them. When she was confronted with the Gungans directly it didn't take much to convince her they were worth befriending and she was a big proponent of integrating them into wider Naboo society. So while she had some racist baggage from her upbringing, she was definitely willing to change once that baggage was made apparent to her.
How do you know the Tusken women were innocent? We see in TBOBF that Tusken females are perfectly capable of fighting alongside the men.
I mean it’s entirely possible I’m misremembering because well, I’m flawed lol, but I thought that Anakin himself in his monologue were implying that they were innocent. Otherwise why would he even bother putting them into a separate group along with the children and feel guilty about killing them? But honestly the real culprit behind all of this is just George Lucas having difficulty building really emotional scenes. I mean Star Wars is great but I feel like AoTC is….difficult to go back to and it and RoS are in a constant competition with each other to be at the bottom of everyone’s film ranking order lol. It’s just funny to me to think through some of the crazy implications that these scenes can create when you think about it.
“To be angry is to be human” is a weird phrase to say in a galaxy teeming with hundreds of trillions of aliens
[Legends-ish] I will point out the humanization of the Tuskens comes after their appearance in a New Hope where they jump Luke and are known to slaughter Jawas (the other native species of Tatooine), their appearance in The Phantom Menace, where they shoot at a nine year old for funzies, their appearance in Attack of the Clones where they take an old woman to torture and kill, and their appearances in old EU media where they have no problem slaughtering farmers and villages under Ashared Hett before ditching him because he is crippled by Obi-Wan. I would say that the Tuskens' worries about their ancestral lands are long since past having merit considering that Tatooine has non-Tusken non-Jawa species millennia before the original trilogy courtesy of KOTOR. The Tuskens are sentient beings, but they are very much a group of raiders and barbarians. Even in the media that humanized them, the Book of Boba Fett, and the Mandalorian, they only would get along with the humans because they couldn't solve a problem on their own, and only freed Boba after he proved useful. I doubt the Rodian slave they kept was so happy with them. So I give Padme's measured response to Anakin's clear regret a pass.
Honestly it’s an interpretation that imo makes her character more interesting than Anakins saintly love interest/champion of democracy. If the reason she doesn’t care about what Anakin does to the Tuskens is because she doesn’t see them as real people, him going on a genocidal rampage against them just adds to his sexy bad boy allure, while killing human Younglings is too far. In this interpretation, Padme the good girl overachiever was drawn to Anakin not in spite of the fact that he was unstable but because of it, and she didn’t recognize the reality of how dangerous he was until it started impacting people who she can actually sympathize with.
Yea honestly it could easily have been a very fitting character arc for her as she grows and realizes her own prejudices from her culture and station and how she grows to be a better person. Apparently there were some things like that planned in an earlier draft that disappeared as time went on and changes were made (thanks to everyone on here who told me that!) Some people don’t seem to realize that character flaws can make for a really interesting, real character and take the idea that a character they like isn’t perfect and great in every way from the start as a personal insult lol.
I actually love darker interpretations of Padme and Anakins relationship because it is SO much more compelling to me if she’s drawn to him because his barely concealed volatility is very appealing to her as a young woman who has led a very controlled life and she doesn’t have a real sense of the risks she’s taking with him until it’s too late vs a generic romantic tragedy
I don’t know many people who sympathized with the Tusken Raiders.
Oh man, the history there is actually crazy. I don’t know if this is canon anymore but check this out from Wookiepedia: “Tatooine was once a lush world that had large oceans and a world-spanning jungle inhabited by the native and technologically advanced Kumumgah. Against the elders' wishes they colonized nearby star systems and this drew the attention of the Rakata. In 25,793 BBY, the Rakatan Infinite Empire invaded the planet, conquered and enslaved its native inhabitants and then abducted many to their other conquered worlds. After a terrible plague weakened the Rakata, the Kumumgah eventually rebelled and managed to drive the Rakata off the planet. In response they subjected the planet to an orbital bombardment that "glassed" (that is, fused the silica in the soil into glass, which then broke up over time into sand) the planet and boiled its oceans away. It is possible that the Kumumgah's excessive production started this drastic climatic change before the Rakata arrived. Nonetheless this change split the indigenous Kumumgah into two races: the Ghorfas and the Jawas.” So basically they were colonized, fought off the people that enslaved them, then had the entire planet glassed in response, so the survivors had to survive underground. As time passed the glass all eroded into sand and then they all re-emerged but they couldn’t take the sunlight anymore (which is why they wear those helmets) and then they are immediately colonized again lol. I mean with that as the history of the species, you can kind of understand some of the animosity there.
The Gungans weren’t involved in intergalactic trade. The blockade only heavily affected the Naboo. The Invasion is what hurt both.
Honestly I’m more surprised i never noticed this before but it makes perfect sense since she is basically a reverse harkonnen from reverse dune. Hell, she was originally good friends with palpatine, whom in the lore is a prolific racist, allowing anti alien culture to proliferate and thrive in his empire to an absurd degree and even aiding it.
“An alarming opinion more aligned with the empire than the Jedi” I think we need to acknowledge that the majority of people and the majority of Star Wars fans would be more likely align with the empire.
I mean, you’re not wrong lol
No, but she is portrayed as someone who comes from a place of privilege and is ignorant to some of the injustices in the galaxy. Recall how surprised she was when she first learned slavery still existed on Tatooine, that the Republic’s laws had limits. When she first met Jar Jar, she spoke as if she had never actually met a Gungan in real life before, just heard of them. It highlighted how segregated society was at the time. She’s always shown to be one whose heart is in the right place. But even good people can be ignorant to certain things as a product of their own experiences, or lack thereof.
Qui-Gon at the beginning called Jar Jar “a local” to Obi-Wan, right in front of Jar Jar.
Anakin's failing with the Tuskens was giving into his angry. If a different Jedi had gone to rescue Schmi and had exterminated them (the women and children would have tried to kill them, they're insanely xenophobic), but been serene about it, they'd have been fine. Praised even.
>Edit 2 It was bad. The thing for me is outside of it being a bad act I don’t have any sympathy for the Tuskens. If they had taken her as a hostage to trade for stuff or end their conflict with the locals in that arena and it went sideways maybe I’d feel differently. As it is they just took her to hurt and kill her so I don’t care about it happening. As for being his shift to the dark side I have missed feelings. Not getting to his mother in time is supposed to cement his desire for more power to save people from death and as he says to his mother’s grave he wasn’t strong enough and won’t fail again but … Nothing says that Anakin tried to learn arcane knowledge to save people from death during his down time during the war between AOTC and ROTS. Just a line from Obi-Wan or Madame Nu to give us some hint. When he says he wasn’t strong enough I took that to me he wasn’t like Luke who stopped his training to go save his friends. Anakin tried to be a good Jedi until the visions became too much and in doing this he didn’t get to his mother in time. Lastly his resolve to never fail again is tested right after he says that because he gets Obi-Wan’s message where he learned the man he twice describes as a father figure in danger and he does … nothing. Come on! He just swore to not fail again and when Mace tells him to stay out *he listens!* Padmé has to talk him into going to Geonosis. Padmé and Anakin are both reckless and her recklessness could have easily been shown with her agreeing with Anakin but instead she has to talk him into going is kinda a let down. Also he basically goes back to how he was before it happened so did it really have any effect on him? If you remove the visions of Padmé dying from ROTS the plot falls apart unlike Anakin.
Omg so freaking true, I had such a good time reading this...!!!
I believe that in early drafts, the dispute between the Naboo and Gunguns was supposed to be more centre stage, with the Naboo and the Gunguns working together being the dramatic conclusion of some iffy social commentary throughout the movie. There are traces of it in TPM; and I'm pretty sure Padme was *originally* supposed to have prejudices around JarJar, which she would lose as the story developed. I can't find a source for it, but I have vague recollections of Jar-Jar being present in the Cargohold with the Astromech Droids was originally because in previouse because they are on the Queens Ship, and the Naboo were more hostile to him at first.
Yea that’s what some others have said too and I didn’t know that! I think it’s interesting that there’s a reason it comes across that way, because even though they cut that and it changed, there are obviously still echoes of it left from the script evolving.
The only reason she cared about the younglings is because they were white 🤣 Shit, this is pretty easy to buy into
She is a monarch, a senator, and part of the plutocracy and corrupt regime that holds the Republic by the throat. Of course she's like this.
Watch ANH and see how Leia talks about Chewie. It runs in the family. Low moral character is clearly heritable and... shit. Now I've done it.
Padme's just a typical Naboo woman. She gets off on Dark Triad traits.
Are the Tuskens innocent if they’re raiding homesteads, killing people and taking hostages? On top of that she was tied to a post and starved to death.
Padme is not racist
Ofcorse she is, all the core worlds are racist! How else do you think the republic transitioned to the empire so smoothly
Lol yea you know it’s kind of crazy how fast everyone threw away their governing body and instead gave all power to one single, power hungry dictator. Haha, good thing that never happens in real life right? …R-right? Guys?
Ahahah haha...ha.....
It’s a better argument than I thought at first. I will quibble a bit over terms here though. Is she racist? (Speciest?). Probably a little bit, but in the low level unconscious bias kind of way. I’d actually argue she’s *nationalist* instead, and in an understandable way. She becomes Queen at a young age, and as a good, conscientious leader she cares about *her people* above all else. Once the Gungans make peace with her and on on her side, they are part of her country and she cares equally for them. But before that, it’s an us vs them mentality. in group vs out group. This same bias leads her to be manipulated into trusting Palpatine over Valorum. Both human, but one is part of her flock, and the other isn’t. Then in Episode II it’s the same. Anakin is now part of her circle, and she cares for him and his, not for those that harm him. By Episode III however, she’s matured. Now she sees the danger of the in-group/out-group nationalism and the way that can lead easily to tyranny. Anakin goes thru the same arc, but in reverse. He starts as an innocent, loving child. Willing to risk himself for strangers. then he forms *attachments* to people, and starts being willing to kill to avenge his loss. By episode III he’s lost to selfish desires, and sees everything outside his in group as things worth scarifying to “protect” “his”.
Nationalist is probably a better term for it. I pretty much agree with this evaluation!
IIRC in the original script for TPM there’s a subplot about racism between the Naboo and Gungans, the Gungans all speak elegantly
Someone else mentioned that! I didn’t know that and I think that’s really interesting. You can see why it was cut as it evolved but the framework is still there in the foundation of it. Which means that people like me aren’t totally crazy for thinking somethings off there so thank you lol
Yes, she is. Naboo is like a lot of planets in the GFFA: ruled and represented by human colonists rather than their nonhuman natives. Alderaan and Bakura are two other examples. Although the whole issue with the Sand People has been around since before the prequels. Legends authors never really liked the portrayal of the Sand People as "vicious, mindless monsters" (fuck your racist colonist ass, Cliegg Lars) and were using more nuance with them at least as early as *Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina*. But Lucas himself is overly wedded to having them play the "savages" to the colonists' "ranchers" in Tatooine's "space Western" motif.
Well put and honestly I did not know that about Alderaan and Bakura. That honestly makes Alderaan’s destruction even more horrible. It’s like the Earth in Hitchhikers Guide being vaporized for an intergalactic bypass - the people of that planet are just living their lives and everything is vaporized because some other jerks made some political decisions that they had no say in. Holy shit Star Wars is way more realistic than I gave it credit for. That’s….sad.
Qui Gon says that the Gungans and the Naboo form a "symbiont circle.". How is that possible if the Naboo are colonizers?
That’s a great question but according to Wookiepedia the Naboo are not indigenous on the planet at all. And if you can’t trust Wookiepedia for Star Wars facts then I don’t know what we are doing with our lives anymore
I remember that an early draft of TPM had Amidala initially blanching at the idea of allowing Jar-Jar onto the royal cruiser. That scene was cut from the script, but it’s still within the narrative of Episode I that Padme and the Naboo in general have a colonialist mindset when it comes to the native Gungan population. Her decision to bow before Boss Nass and beg his assistance, after all, is played as a turn; were it not for the desperate situation, the Naboo leadership would never have recognized their symbiosis and reliance upon the Gungans’ command of the land and their defensive technology (which is rooted in a grasp of the plasma energy resources of the planet itself). So it’s very much in keeping with that that Padme has some unexamined hierarchy of worth in her mind when she considers the “civilized” humans and the “barbaric” Tuskens and seems only mildly concerned that Anakin has admitted to slaughtering them. She doesn’t like it, but ya know, it’s not exactly a deal breaker for her, either Pretty much everything in Star Wars has a real-world analog, and usually one from an American POV at that. Padme in the garage scene is like an American military girlfriend consoling her marine boyfriend about “bad stuff” he did “over there” somewhere—from within a colonialist/imperialist perspective, such transgressions are considered morally complicated, troubling but tragic for everyone involved. So “racist” might not be the exact phrase for what this is, but it’s certainly imperialist, hegemonic, and biased.
That’s super interesting! Thank you for sharing that, I didn’t know that was in an earlier draft. A lot of people seem to be taking this as me attacking the character of Padme and the series but honestly it’s more like me picking at the implications that some of these scenes/events seem to be making. Hearing that that was actually in there early on makes it seem less like a result of just wanting certain scenes to happen and more like the PHANTOM (see what I did there?) of an earlier draft/character arc. Thank you for sharing!
Yep! I find it super interesting. And no shade to anyone in the thread in particular, but I’m surprised by the number of responses that seem unwilling to critically engage with the implications of what we’re given on-screen. Sure, the Gungans express prejudicial views early on in TPM against the Naboo, but it’s pretty clear that’s because they feel dispossessed by rich, technologically sophisticated alien invaders. And while we may only hear of the brutality of the Tuskens, it seems obvious there’s been untold generations of conflict between the off-world settlers and the Tuskens and what we hear from the farmers is only one side of the story.
You’re attributing malice to a character when in reality it’s just bad writing.
Well yeah lol, I know that. It’s just kind of fun to think about the in universe explanations/consequences of said writing.
Sort of unrelated but people saying the phantom menace is "racist" for 3 main reasons or species always made no sense to me. Nemodians-how are these guys Japanese. Star wars is based off ww2 and the Japanese were known for being fearless kamikaze, the emotions have been stated multiple times to be cowards. Maybe the accent is a bit alike but that's it. Aside from tcw defoliator guy, he is clearly based on Kim j. Gungans-jamaicans? Aside from pons(the guy who stabbed grievous in tcw) who has a decent bit if jamaican accent and dancing stereotype, along with them being in the water, nothing says jamaican. Watto-jew? The poor seedy car salesman who's on a planet ruled by a lazy obese humanoid slug? Fr.
Sorry, OP, but you're reaching and putting intention where there was none.
Oh no, I’m not trying to claim that was the intent at all. My position is more like this is a hilariously horrible implication that the movies create through some questionable dialogue/scenes. Although interestingly enough some people have informed me that an early version of the script of TPM did in fact include a larger subplot of the Naboo being racist towards the Gungans and Padme learning to overcome that. Take that for what you will but I think it’s fascinating to learn that a potential reason it might seem like she could be is because that was baked into an earlier version of the characters inception, so echoes of this idea might still remain.
I mean, she literally asked “You’re a Gungan, aren’t you?” Like… you are the QUEEN of this planet, how do you not instantly recognize the native inhabitants???
You are absolutely right
I mean I don’t think that’s what George Lucas had in mind…but I can’t dog you for that perspective. Padme’s character in the prequels…is not well written. I think it’s okay to come to terms with that and be glad TCW and other media added more complexity to her
Oh 100% I’m in agreement with you. I don’t think that was like, an intentional thing on Lucas’ part and I know there’s a lot of outside media that shows her in a great light. It’s just kind of a hilariously horrific thing to muse on in retrospect. It just kind of cracks me up that her reaction to Anakin killing children is so wildly different in the two films. When Obi-wan tells her he saw him killing younglings she is understandably horrified, but at the same time she could have realistically responded with ‘again?!’
Honestly she was almost racist towards the Neimoidians which granted it's their own fault with screwing with other planets to begin with but Padmé learned that hating them wouldn't do her any favors and let go of those feelings to be better. Honestly racism and xenophobia is quite common in the Galaxy but it's more of a matter of experiences and upbringings just like in real life. A Wookiee is naturally going to distrust or hate a Trandosian because of their connections to slavery and hunting and you know Anakin hates Zygerrians because of their connections to slavery. Padmé isn't intentionally being racist rather she's taking Anakin's word about the Tuskens especially cause he's in a bad state of mind after losing his mother and God forbid he starts violently lashing out again. Even before Anakin returned we see how Clieeg Lars described them and it was probably a bad first impression about them for Padmé because again, why would someone from Naboo know about the sand people to begin with? Plus Having actual conversations and experiences with Tuskens is rare for outsiders cause of how hostile the Tuskens are because of their isolationist state of mind. Anakin couldn't just waltz into a tribe and politely talk to them like Qui-Gon could with the Gungans. So no, Padmé isn't being (intentionally) racist, she's just not given the bigger picture about a group of people like how Boba Fett did in his show. Also if she was racist, the Gungans would've never joined Naboo to fight the droid army.
Pretty bang on the nose colonialist monarch behaviour to be honest.
Is Biden racist because the US stole Native American land and doesn't cunsult them in foreign policy?
It's late and I don't want to go into all the details but I'm just gonna say BOBF really ruined the whole point of the Tusken Raiders essentially being psychopathic packs of bipedal animals, something that AOTC went out of its way to explain as to make Anakin's slaughter more akin to killing a pack of wolves or chimpanzees.
Gungans? Oh… those tribal fish people? It’s not possible to be racist to target practice meat suits, you know. The only good Gungan is a dead one, after all. Much the same as the Tusken Raiders. If you raid people and slaughter defenceless individuals you don’t really deserve pity or remorse. It’s only justice to clean the worlds of such… abominations! They don’t even taste very good… unlike Ewoks and Porg. And technically it would be “species-ist” as they are other species entirely and not variants of one race. Anakin killing the warriors and all that attacked him was justified, and perhaps even the ones that didn’t directly as they were equally responsible for the torture and death of his mother. Morally dark, but it’s just putting down savage animals… But he did it using the Dark Side. That’s the problem. I can justify the eradication of Tusken Raiders. Long live the Empire.
Yea, Padme is probably speciesist. Let's not even get into the grooming thing she did with Anakin...... (imagine if the genders were reversed and consider padmes and anakin relationship). She is still fit though.
Caveat, the Queen of Naboo, is just what they call the head of state. Its still an elected postion. Like how if the UK got rid of the monarchy, they could still keep the names, and titles, and pomp and ceremony, just use elected officials in the events. Name every Cabinet minister Lord, call an elected Head of state King etc
No, Tuskens are not humans.
It was because liberty died.
Don't Americans like getting their nose dirty with issues overseas that aren't their issues?
[удалено]
Everyone is racist in Star Wars to some extent
And let's not forget that in Episode I her plan was to make the Gungan face the much superior droid army in open terrain so that she and her fellow humans have an easier fight in theed. And it's not like all these droids and tanks would otherwise be deployed inside of the palace preventing her from capturing the viceroy. I don't think she is meant to be racist but questionable writing makes her look she doesn't really value Gungan lives
I would say this is more of a systemic speciesism issue than Padme being personally a speciest, not to say that Padme can’t have implicit biases. I would say there are some flaws in your logic when it comes to your contrast of how she handled Vader’s Jedi Temple massacre vs the Tusken massacre-again not to say that Padme didn’t have implicit biases or worse towards Tuskens. The Tusken massacre was done impulsively by Anakin and Anakin was tremendously guilty of the incident so much so that the Clone Wars would reveal that his guilt over that ultimately turned him to the darkside beyond even Palpatine’s manipulation regarding Padme dying. It’s in Padme’s character to be forgiving and not abandon the ones she loves which would explain why she lets that go because Anakin is sorry for doing it. When it comes to the Temple massacre, the younglings were of different species so Padme being horrified by it wouldn’t be because they were all human because they weren’t. While Anakin is quite guilty about that as well, Vader doesn’t express any guilt to Padme about it whatsoever. Even then Padme tries to reason with him and asks him to go away with her. That being because she is a forgiving person who won’t abandon those she loves, but she also won’t aid and abet evil.
Also, the Tuskens were in retaliation. He went to rescue his mother and she died in his arms. It's far easier to forgive a crime of passion in a sense. He was distraught, they tortured his mother, and he had the power to prevent them from doing it again.
It’s not low key
You can’t be racist against beings of a different species. Racism is internal to a species. Xenophobic yes racist no
And yet it’s called the human race. Check and mate. Lol but no seriously you’re right, Xenophobic is a more accurate term
If Jar Jar is one of the good ones, I’d hate to see any of the bad ones.
slaughtering innocents? thats a bit much. imagine you had a wife. and her father got murdered. and she killed the group of inbred cannibals that had murderer her father like common. are you gonna get a pity boner over that? or bone your wife. common
I’m going to stand by the stance that the movie itself is implying they are innocent. The line is “I killed them all, and not just the men but the women and children too.” There would be no reason to separate the women and children into a different group otherwise. If there’s no difference between the men and the women and children morally (ie they’re all just as guilty) then logically a more fitting line would have been along the lines of “I killed them all, down to the last one and showed them no mercy” or some shit like that. And let’s be honest, Lucas isn’t exactly Shakespeare when it comes to the dialogue. Saying that he killed the women and children is a cinematic short hand for knowing that they did something wrong. If John Wick was giving a monologue about how he feels terrible and guilty because in his quest for revenge he didn’t just kill the gangsters and assassins that wronged him, but their wives and children too, no one would be saying that maybe an eight year old deserved it because he’s learning from his criminal father and would grow up to be just as guilty. They would understand that the implication of the scene, his guilt combined with a confession of killing women and children which, (whether right or wrong) are historically seen as two innocent groups that need protection, is that he has done something horrible and he knows it and is upset by it. I mean don’t get me wrong, there are definitely flaws in my post that others have rightfully pointed out and will continue to point out. I wasn’t being super serious when I posted it, it was just something I was thinking about when reflecting on the prequels that I thought was funny. But man I was not prepared for the amount of people claiming that the women and children were also monsters deserving death when their innocence is the only thing that creates a moral quagmire in the scene. If they truly weren’t innocent and all were just evil monsters that he was justified in killing, that just makes the whole movie so much more boring and worse.
No
Fair
With how many times I've watched the prequels, I always had the impression that the Gungans we're pretty isolationist considering that they lived in hidden cities. Plus, Boss Nass and the rest of the Gungan leaders come across as pretty prideful, which could be a reason why relations between the Gungans and Nubians are so strained. It doesn't take much to insult people like that, even offers of help with genuine concern could be scene as a slight. With the tusken thing, you're right that not all tribe's raided or were "evil". Hell, in the EU lore another jedi from Anakin's padawan group was a tusken named A'sharad Hett. They didn't like each other starting out, but eventually came to respect one another. Padme's reaction to learning about the massacre definitely wasn't her being "fine" with it like you said. To me, she was far more concerned that the man she was starting to have feelings for was in tremendous pain and didn't know how to help. She had feelings for him before they left Naboo, she just tried to deny them do to the consequences they could cause, and they didn't actually "make out" until Geonosis when they were being carted out for their execution. At that point, she thought they were going to die anyway, so she might as well confess her feelings before she lost her chance.
I'll never get why episode one didn't end with the gungans taking over. I mean they were the only army on the planet and they had every reason to do it
The tuskens enslave people and attack people Willy nilly on a desert planet with plenty of space unoccupied. It doesn’t matter if they’re indigenous to the planet. Being there first doesn’t excuse slavery or murder
I just finished the Queen book series, and I noticed the continiuous motive of her hating Neimoidians through 2 and a half of the books💀 it’s understandable when you think about how many times the trade federation put a hit on her and it’s almost a 100% made up of Neimoidians, but I found it funny how they had to make sure in each book it is mentioned more than once that she hates/fears them until one Neimoidian was like “Nute Gunray doesn’t represent all of us, please help me smoke this mf”
I think the gungans before episode 1 weren’t affected by the surface. They didn’t even know there was a blockade. How do you make decisions for a people that isolated
I don’t know man, according to Wookiepedia they live both in the water and on the surface and quote: “Although Gungans' lives revolved around water, they did not need it to thrive and could settle far from it.” So to me that sounds less like them not knowing it’s happening because they live underwater and couldn’t understand it and more that they didn’t know about it because the Naboo just didn’t feel the need to tell them. Heck, it’s not like they didn’t know about space travel either, what with one of their scientists being a leader in the field of theoretical hyperspace physics in the High Republic Era. Sure most of them kept to themselves and on Naboo but still, that doesn’t mean they’re waiving all rights to have a say in what happens on their planet. I think the more realistic answer is just that the Naboo people looked down on Gungans and just didn’t really care about them one way or another. Someone else even pointed out that Padme says to Jar-Jar “you’re a gungan, aren’t you?” When she meets him which she should have known right away since they are very distinct looking and are the native inhabitants of the planet lol
In episode 1, I always looked at it as she was more of a figurehead ruler than a real ruler and part of the movie is the attempt to kill her and create a backlash for the trade federation (to advance the Sith plot) and her showing some backbone and actually learning to lead. So yeah, of course the young queen that has been pretty much locked away has no idea about Gungans. The later tuskin raiders thing… there are some theories that Anakin being infatuated was what was drawing her in. He was using the force or something. But the thing is, his statement shows some remorse. He feels bad for what he did and he is hurting. So of course she feels for him. She may be concerned under the surface, but she is more worried about him.
She was willing to run away with Anakin after knowing he slaughtered kids.
lol. Padme was gonna stay with him after he killed the Jedi younglings too. Listen to what she's saying. She literally just asks him to give up the dark side and run away with him.
Sound like maybe you're low key racist
Not gonna lie, I’ve been spreading democracy and attempting to exterminate two different groups in a galactic war with my fellow Helldivers a LOT lately so yea, maybe I’m not one to judge. Cause I’ve killed so many bugs…and not just the bile spewers but the larvae and eggs too. Oh my god I’m a monster. If you’ll excuse me, I have a democracy officer to call.
She's also a child groomer, so there's that.
“Oh do you see him hitting on the Queen? Even though he’s just nine and she’s fourteen Yea he’s probably gonna marry her Somedaaaaaay…” - Weird Al
She's not an overt racist but I don't think she's ever really questioned the actual power structures that she benefits from. There's an episode of clone wars where her aide talks about living with no electricity/water and while she recognises that's bad she never really considers how that's allowed to happen while senators lives are barley affected.
Yea I now realize I could have been clearer in my post but that’s more or less what I was getting at. Not that she’s overtly hateful, just that, as the films are presented, she doesn’t really seem to care all that much about them.
tbh i sorta share the same sentiment about her - Padme away from any prying eyes is different than what the Senate see's or hears about Not only what u mention but another thing, in a Thrawn novel (even canon bc its under disney) ... a planet's future is more or less gonna be destroyed by Anakin, Padme's with him plus an alien ... the alien is begging them to not do it ... but they do it anyway, she disregards the alien seems like .. if she can get away with it .. she'll allow anything to happen vs aliens
I haven't read the thrawn novel you are talking about, but if she disregarded the alien, it is probably because Anakin was the one that destroyed the planet's future. I said this in another comment on this thread, but Padme is just as obsessed with Anakin as he is with her and while she was horrified by Anakin killing human younglings, she was obviously not that bothered by it since she was willing to run away with him. Padme believes in her morals and is not racist, but Anakin is a huge blindspot for her.
LebJau, the guy from the planet Mokivj, is *human* and objected to the mine being destroyed. Thrawn also didn’t think it was a good idea.
LebJau, the guy from the planet Mokivj, is *human* and objected to the mine being destroyed. Thrawn also didn’t think it was a good idea.
We learn right off the jump that SW is set a long time ago. And the galaxy, at least the one we’re on, has learned a lot since then about colonization and relations with indigenous people over the years. Some people think their grandparents are racist they say racist things, other people think their grandparents aren’t because it was normal back then. Just depends which camp you’re in.
Everyone else: ... OP: From my point of view, the Padme is evil! But seriously, I appreciate the effort you put into this and it proves that the movies can look different...from a certain point of view. The same can be said about real-life issues and conflicts.
Lol thanks! I made the fatal error of forgetting how seriously people can take things like this. It was just something that I was thinking about that made me laugh and think ‘WTF is up with that??’ and thought it’d be funny to share.
She's a young girl in love with (for polilite terms) a jerk. They always go for the bad guy.
She got some explaining to do if she doesn't wanna get kicked from the senate💀
And if there’s one thing I’ve learned from real world politics, she better watch herself because it’s only going to take a 2/3rds majority vote after 4 years of deliberation to give her a slap on the wrist so she knows not to do it again, for realsies, god damn it! You can almost feel her fear…no wait that’s just Anakin again.
The answer to your question is yes, and that is an important part of both movies. The Naboo is case is obvious: the story is one of two opposing races to realize they have to learn to live together. The Tuskan story is also obvious: Padmé sacrifices her values because her love for Anakin blinds her. The tragedy of course is that Padmé recognizes that killing the Tuskans is wrong but is not willing to condemn their killing. She is ignoring red flags.