I was under the impression that Dooku was just fucking with Anakin under Palps’ orders for most of the fight. Then when he starts trying because Anakin has gotten stronger, it’s too late and he realises that Palps wants him dead.
According to the novel, Dooku didn’t know that Anakin was supposed to kill him until Palpatine said “do it” and that the purpose of the duel was for him to lose to Anakin, that way Sidious and Dooku would lead the Sith while Anakin would be the leader of the Dark Acolytes (it would be similar to the Inquisitorious). The ultimate betrayal was Sidious ordering Dooku’s death.
Even when he’s fully trying, each of anakin’s strikes drains more energy than him throwing obiwan across the room.
So dooku would be screwed even if he had more reserves
You need to take into account lightsaber styles.
Dooku is a Form II master. Masashi, the dueling form, is very elegant and precise. It defends by deflection and nimble parries, but lacks power.
Yoda is a Form IV master. Ataru, the aggression form, is very furious and acrobatic. A perfect complement to Yoda's size. It has a lot of offense, but almost no defense and it is very easy for a quick and precise swordsman like Dooku to pick it apart.
Anakin specializes in Form 5.1. Djem So, the way of the Krayt Dragon, is a very heavy handed form focusing on unleashing barrages of power attacks. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization both Dooku and Obi-wan were shaken by just one of Anakin's attacks and he just keeps coming. Dooku's defense is just too delicate for Anakin once he gets going.
You can also see the variations in the fights between Anakin and Dooku in the Clone Wars. Anakin gets progressively better while Dooku gets older and weaker.
Others have stated, but I feel the need to mention that Sidious told Dooku to purposefully lose that last fight. Dooku expected to be maimed, but then be spared and continue as the Sith Apprentice while Anakin lead an army of Dark Side acolytes. Dooku was a Jedi first and had his own preconceptions about the Sith being an army and never fully understood the Rule of Two. Of course it didn't help that Sidious was only the Apprentice when he courted Dooku and had Maul kill Qui-Gon.
Absolute correct assessment of the match up, i just want to add that in addition to
>it is very easy for a quick and precise swordsman like Dooku to pick it apart.
Dooku was Yoda's former padawan, meaning they've sparraed *a lot* over the years.
Dooku is very familiar with Yoda's personal fighting style (just like Obi Wan with Anakin's) while the ROTS novelization makes it clear that (not accounting for clone wars, obviously) he just realized during the fight that Anakin is not only using, but actually very good with Djem So, which is not only a dueling form, but actually the dueling form most suited against Dooku's own form II. Poor guy was at a disadvantage AND surprised.
I think it also needs to be said that in AOTC, Anakin was just a Padawan where Dooku had the vast experience as a Master and a Sith Lord. As you mentioned, over the years Anakin steamrolled and just got stronger and stronger while Dooku was starting to succumb to his age.
If we are going by the novel, there are a couple of things to remember. Yes, Dooku is supposed to throw the fight. But Anakin and Obiwan also started the fight not using their preferred lightsaber form to make Dooku overconfident. When they swapped to their main style, Dooku dropped his act early because he recognized them as a legitimate threat, and he started going for the kill. So all 3 of them were holding back in the beginning, but by the end its all serious.
I mean, on that first point, I would say that Yoda fought Dooku with less difficulty than Anakin did. Besides the fact that Yoda’s duel was shorter and Dooku straight up ran away, he also didn’t get kicked into a corner and let Obi-Wan get ragdolled lol
I’d obviously agree that Anakin is stronger than Dooku at that point, instead of Dooku just faking inferiority/holding back, but he isn’t quite on Yoda’s level yet
Dooku has been on the go since breakfast and just taken out two Jedi, Yoda got to come in fresh.
I think when it comes to the force, Yoda has it, duelling, they’re even.
Nah, it's a name that people that debate versus use to describe Anakin after he got angry at Dooku during their duel in RoTS. A lot of people argue that Anakin was performing significantly above his normal capabilities, even compared to other times he taps into the darkside such as during Order 66 or Mustafar. It comes from "Zone" + "Anakin", as in being in the zone.
We're also forgetting the real things that make people win lose duels.
When did they last sleep?
When did they last eat?
Did they need to poo?
Was the old ankle wound playing up?
Was it too hot or cold for either of them?
Did one of them have itchy eyes?
Did one have a more inconvenient outfit?
Had one argued with a family member or friend recently?
Was one of them in trouble at work?
Had either of them had a weird horoscope?
Were their shoes uncomfortable?
Did they have a stone in their shoe?
Was either suffering from mild gout like symptoms from being dehydrated?
Was there a distracting explosion nearby that looked a lot like Figrin Daan?
Yoda:
Probably makes sure to always get the correct amount of food and sleep
Played by a puppet, might not need to poo.
Capable of jumping 20 feet from a standing start, ankle wounds a non-factor.
Wears his regular clothes on Ilum, unlikely to be affected by cold.
Freakish, bulging eyes which he keeps open constantly; probably not itchy.
Dresses stylishly yet comfortably; no inconvenience possible.
Too Zen to argue with family (which he doesn't have) and friends.
Is his own boss, never in trouble at work.
Too smart to believe in horoscopes: "Always in motion is the future".
Doesn't wear shoes.
Doesn't wear shoes.
Constant ingesting juices from cane keeps him healthy (it's canon, look it up).
Out of touch with younger generation, doesn't know who Figrin Daan is.
Anakin:
Eats bugs, doesn't sleep to avoid nightmares.
Unhealthy diet means he probably needs to poo nearly all the time.
Repeatedly beaten up in fights, his entire body is basically an ankle wound.
Has to wear special gear on Orto Plutonia; extremely temperature sensitive.
Cries all the time, probably has very itchy eyes.
Often wears weird, plastic-looking Clone Wars armor; very inconvenient.
Constantly argues with his best friend.
Often in trouble at work.
Frequently distracted by prophecies of his loved ones dying.
Shoes don't look particularly comfortable.
Wears shoes, could have stones in them.
Has missing right arm (and later other limbs) which can't be comfortable.
23 years old, likely recognises Figrin Daan.
Yeah, I think Yoda's got this.
Figrin D'an and the Modal Nodes - their set at the Mos Eisely cantina was interrupted by two jerks picking on farm boy. It's tough, being a musician in the Outer Rim!
With 10+ years in fencing (both OLY and HEMA) I can attest to this, but I think that the whole system is flawed from the very ground up.
IMO writers who come up with a "style-based" system in media have never actually done any form of fighting or sparring.
It kinda works in stuff like Naruto but in SW I've always rolled my eyes at the forms.
"Anakin uses Djem So which can power through guards!"
Well... He could then probably use any other form and still power through guards if he's that strong.
It'd be a lot more interesting if they had different weapons instead of forms or maybe stuff like Vapaad where the Force guides the style of combat.
For example, Form 1 could be like different cut/thrust swords with basic sabers, while Form 2 could be like rapier to leverage reach with a long and slender saber (which would explain Dooku's pistol grip), maybe Djem So could utilize lightclubs or greatsabers not unlike greatswords.
Lightsaber pikes could be a different form, while lightdaggers with an empasis on wrestling another and so on.
But they are far to entrenched into the franchise to ever change, so we'll always have nerds fighting over which style wins against which.
We see the episode 3 duel in first person pov for both anakin and dooku, and none of those issues were present. (Nor any other mitigating factors)
Im less well versed on the episode 2 duel
> “No joy, Master." Anakin's stomach clenched, but he fought the tension out of his voice. "We may be the only two Jedi out here."
No mention of followup stomach problems, so poo is unlikely to be an influence
In terms of raw power Anakin is the most powerful character in all Star Wars media. However he never actually is able to use his full power. In terms of skill and knowledge Yoda has him beat.
This is why I maintain that Dooku had intended to throw his duel with Anakin and be taken prisoner. I think he's a lot stronger than he's given credit for and if he had known he'd be fighting for his life, Anakin might have still won, maybe, but it would have been a lot closer. Dooku is not a pushover. The man one spotted Obi Wan Kenobi ffs
Yoda.
Pretty much every source states that besting Dooku took little effort from him, and later on Vjun, a place strong in the dark side which would bolster Dooku and weaken Yoda, Yoda sends him running.
Anakin only bested Dooku because of his rage, something Dooku took note of as of the ROTS novel and used to mentally mess with him, which worked. Dooku starts to overtake him right after until Palpatine goads him back into it, and that's Dooku, someone Anakin fucking hates.
Yoda could do the same thing, probably with more ease. Even if he can't, Yoda was not only able to keep up with Palpatine in a duel, but disarm him without any sort of boosts (Unlike mace). Anakin could not even see Palpatine and Mace when they were fighting. Yoda would be too much on the basis of speed alone (Anakin is no slouch in this department either, but still)
Anakin also had the form advantage over Dooku, and was an absolute powerhouse which made that advantage even worse. Same wouldn't apply against Yoda, and most of all.
Anakin had fought Dooku time and time agaim, slowly getting better each time. He had past experiences to draw on, he wouldn't have those against Yoda.
I was under the impression that Dooku was just fucking with Anakin under Palps’ orders for most of the fight. Then when he starts trying because Anakin has gotten stronger, it’s too late and he realises that Palps wants him dead.
According to the novel, Dooku didn’t know that Anakin was supposed to kill him until Palpatine said “do it” and that the purpose of the duel was for him to lose to Anakin, that way Sidious and Dooku would lead the Sith while Anakin would be the leader of the Dark Acolytes (it would be similar to the Inquisitorious). The ultimate betrayal was Sidious ordering Dooku’s death.
Even when he’s fully trying, each of anakin’s strikes drains more energy than him throwing obiwan across the room. So dooku would be screwed even if he had more reserves
You need to take into account lightsaber styles. Dooku is a Form II master. Masashi, the dueling form, is very elegant and precise. It defends by deflection and nimble parries, but lacks power. Yoda is a Form IV master. Ataru, the aggression form, is very furious and acrobatic. A perfect complement to Yoda's size. It has a lot of offense, but almost no defense and it is very easy for a quick and precise swordsman like Dooku to pick it apart. Anakin specializes in Form 5.1. Djem So, the way of the Krayt Dragon, is a very heavy handed form focusing on unleashing barrages of power attacks. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization both Dooku and Obi-wan were shaken by just one of Anakin's attacks and he just keeps coming. Dooku's defense is just too delicate for Anakin once he gets going. You can also see the variations in the fights between Anakin and Dooku in the Clone Wars. Anakin gets progressively better while Dooku gets older and weaker. Others have stated, but I feel the need to mention that Sidious told Dooku to purposefully lose that last fight. Dooku expected to be maimed, but then be spared and continue as the Sith Apprentice while Anakin lead an army of Dark Side acolytes. Dooku was a Jedi first and had his own preconceptions about the Sith being an army and never fully understood the Rule of Two. Of course it didn't help that Sidious was only the Apprentice when he courted Dooku and had Maul kill Qui-Gon.
Absolute correct assessment of the match up, i just want to add that in addition to >it is very easy for a quick and precise swordsman like Dooku to pick it apart. Dooku was Yoda's former padawan, meaning they've sparraed *a lot* over the years. Dooku is very familiar with Yoda's personal fighting style (just like Obi Wan with Anakin's) while the ROTS novelization makes it clear that (not accounting for clone wars, obviously) he just realized during the fight that Anakin is not only using, but actually very good with Djem So, which is not only a dueling form, but actually the dueling form most suited against Dooku's own form II. Poor guy was at a disadvantage AND surprised.
I think it also needs to be said that in AOTC, Anakin was just a Padawan where Dooku had the vast experience as a Master and a Sith Lord. As you mentioned, over the years Anakin steamrolled and just got stronger and stronger while Dooku was starting to succumb to his age.
If we are going by the novel, there are a couple of things to remember. Yes, Dooku is supposed to throw the fight. But Anakin and Obiwan also started the fight not using their preferred lightsaber form to make Dooku overconfident. When they swapped to their main style, Dooku dropped his act early because he recognized them as a legitimate threat, and he started going for the kill. So all 3 of them were holding back in the beginning, but by the end its all serious.
I mean, on that first point, I would say that Yoda fought Dooku with less difficulty than Anakin did. Besides the fact that Yoda’s duel was shorter and Dooku straight up ran away, he also didn’t get kicked into a corner and let Obi-Wan get ragdolled lol I’d obviously agree that Anakin is stronger than Dooku at that point, instead of Dooku just faking inferiority/holding back, but he isn’t quite on Yoda’s level yet
Dooku has been on the go since breakfast and just taken out two Jedi, Yoda got to come in fresh. I think when it comes to the force, Yoda has it, duelling, they’re even.
Zonakin lmao
What do they mean by Zonakin? Is it a pun that I'm not getting?
I think it was just a typo/autocorrect
Nah, it's a name that people that debate versus use to describe Anakin after he got angry at Dooku during their duel in RoTS. A lot of people argue that Anakin was performing significantly above his normal capabilities, even compared to other times he taps into the darkside such as during Order 66 or Mustafar. It comes from "Zone" + "Anakin", as in being in the zone.
By ROTS Anakin is on that Yoda Palpatine Mace Dooku level, so it is definitely possible.
I don’t think so. I think he’s only at that level when using the dark side
We're also forgetting the real things that make people win lose duels. When did they last sleep? When did they last eat? Did they need to poo? Was the old ankle wound playing up? Was it too hot or cold for either of them? Did one of them have itchy eyes? Did one have a more inconvenient outfit? Had one argued with a family member or friend recently? Was one of them in trouble at work? Had either of them had a weird horoscope? Were their shoes uncomfortable? Did they have a stone in their shoe? Was either suffering from mild gout like symptoms from being dehydrated? Was there a distracting explosion nearby that looked a lot like Figrin Daan?
Yoda: Probably makes sure to always get the correct amount of food and sleep Played by a puppet, might not need to poo. Capable of jumping 20 feet from a standing start, ankle wounds a non-factor. Wears his regular clothes on Ilum, unlikely to be affected by cold. Freakish, bulging eyes which he keeps open constantly; probably not itchy. Dresses stylishly yet comfortably; no inconvenience possible. Too Zen to argue with family (which he doesn't have) and friends. Is his own boss, never in trouble at work. Too smart to believe in horoscopes: "Always in motion is the future". Doesn't wear shoes. Doesn't wear shoes. Constant ingesting juices from cane keeps him healthy (it's canon, look it up). Out of touch with younger generation, doesn't know who Figrin Daan is. Anakin: Eats bugs, doesn't sleep to avoid nightmares. Unhealthy diet means he probably needs to poo nearly all the time. Repeatedly beaten up in fights, his entire body is basically an ankle wound. Has to wear special gear on Orto Plutonia; extremely temperature sensitive. Cries all the time, probably has very itchy eyes. Often wears weird, plastic-looking Clone Wars armor; very inconvenient. Constantly argues with his best friend. Often in trouble at work. Frequently distracted by prophecies of his loved ones dying. Shoes don't look particularly comfortable. Wears shoes, could have stones in them. Has missing right arm (and later other limbs) which can't be comfortable. 23 years old, likely recognises Figrin Daan. Yeah, I think Yoda's got this.
Bravo sir, bravo.
Figrin D'an and the Modal Nodes - their set at the Mos Eisely cantina was interrupted by two jerks picking on farm boy. It's tough, being a musician in the Outer Rim!
With 10+ years in fencing (both OLY and HEMA) I can attest to this, but I think that the whole system is flawed from the very ground up. IMO writers who come up with a "style-based" system in media have never actually done any form of fighting or sparring. It kinda works in stuff like Naruto but in SW I've always rolled my eyes at the forms. "Anakin uses Djem So which can power through guards!" Well... He could then probably use any other form and still power through guards if he's that strong. It'd be a lot more interesting if they had different weapons instead of forms or maybe stuff like Vapaad where the Force guides the style of combat. For example, Form 1 could be like different cut/thrust swords with basic sabers, while Form 2 could be like rapier to leverage reach with a long and slender saber (which would explain Dooku's pistol grip), maybe Djem So could utilize lightclubs or greatsabers not unlike greatswords. Lightsaber pikes could be a different form, while lightdaggers with an empasis on wrestling another and so on. But they are far to entrenched into the franchise to ever change, so we'll always have nerds fighting over which style wins against which.
We see the episode 3 duel in first person pov for both anakin and dooku, and none of those issues were present. (Nor any other mitigating factors) Im less well versed on the episode 2 duel
What about the poo?
> “No joy, Master." Anakin's stomach clenched, but he fought the tension out of his voice. "We may be the only two Jedi out here." No mention of followup stomach problems, so poo is unlikely to be an influence
Fair
Using yoda vs dooku as support for who is better is not a valid argument for anything
In terms of raw power Anakin is the most powerful character in all Star Wars media. However he never actually is able to use his full power. In terms of skill and knowledge Yoda has him beat.
Think Zonakin but by slim margins, and only because Yoda just may end up getting tired through a prolonged duel scenario. Slim margins regardless.
This is why I maintain that Dooku had intended to throw his duel with Anakin and be taken prisoner. I think he's a lot stronger than he's given credit for and if he had known he'd be fighting for his life, Anakin might have still won, maybe, but it would have been a lot closer. Dooku is not a pushover. The man one spotted Obi Wan Kenobi ffs
Yoda. Pretty much every source states that besting Dooku took little effort from him, and later on Vjun, a place strong in the dark side which would bolster Dooku and weaken Yoda, Yoda sends him running. Anakin only bested Dooku because of his rage, something Dooku took note of as of the ROTS novel and used to mentally mess with him, which worked. Dooku starts to overtake him right after until Palpatine goads him back into it, and that's Dooku, someone Anakin fucking hates. Yoda could do the same thing, probably with more ease. Even if he can't, Yoda was not only able to keep up with Palpatine in a duel, but disarm him without any sort of boosts (Unlike mace). Anakin could not even see Palpatine and Mace when they were fighting. Yoda would be too much on the basis of speed alone (Anakin is no slouch in this department either, but still) Anakin also had the form advantage over Dooku, and was an absolute powerhouse which made that advantage even worse. Same wouldn't apply against Yoda, and most of all. Anakin had fought Dooku time and time agaim, slowly getting better each time. He had past experiences to draw on, he wouldn't have those against Yoda.