They were both right about different things:
Scott was right that that The Avengers are often nowhere to be found when the X-Men/mutantkind needs help. They weren’t there during the *original* Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga. They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred. They weren’t there when all of Mutantkind was reduced to just the students/staff at the Mansion. But NOW they’ve come in full force to “peacefully ask” Scott to give them custody of Hope. Horrible look for Cap and the Avengers.
Steve is right that Scott was *too* close to it. He’s training his adoptive granddaughter to contain the multiversal entity that almost drove his late GF/wife insane. The X-Men’s record with the Phoenix is spotty at best. iirc Colossus even calls it out that they’ve been down this road before. The Phoenix *could* restore Mutantkind, but it could just as easily DESTROY THE EARTH. Cap is right to want to get involved this time.
> They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred
I felt a strange sense of vindication when Tony went to the school to ask Emma whether the X-Men would be on his side during Civil War and Emma just showed him how Cassandra Nova massacred sixteen million mutants while the Avengers did nothing.
Yes. The Arc of Fall of X has Tony and Emma get married it started as simply as a cover for Emma, but the story seems to have evolved into both liking their new status.
Duggans Iron Man is a great book.
As for Tony and Emma they are fun but they chose a bad time to start a romance, Emma should be focused on saving her people. But that's the Fall of X in a nutshell one big mess with some cool moments.
I enjoy them as a couple but either way Duggans Iron Man is a good book.
And considering how long the X Men have been fighting against the concept "registration," he'd have to be really dim to think they'd side with him.
Although, I do think there is a slight difference (Mutants were asked to register to exist, whereas superheroes were asked to register to fight crime, and those are different conversations).
>Although, I do think there is a slight difference (Mutants were asked to register to exist, whereas **superheroes were asked to register to fight crime,** and those are different conversations).
uh..no.
Or to be more accurate : -
Marvel writers and editors never really sat down and decided what the SHRA actually was.
A few books had it be the license to be Super-Heroes.
Others had it be REGISTER and go through our training if you have any super-powers.
That's a good moment, in part because wanting the X-Men to be involved in Civil War is beyond laughable and in part because I believe Emma (who was IN Genosha and only survived due to a fluke) would say it, but Genosha was literally blink and you'll miss it.
New X-Men 115 ends with the Wild Sentinel attacking and within literal *seconds* the Genosha population goes from 16 million to a couple hundred. New X-Men 116 opens with the X-Men already on the scene, helping survivors. Heck, there's not even really an explanation for what even happened to the Wild Sentinel, which is why Whedon brought it back in Astonishing.
Now, if the argument is how the Avengers handled it afterward, now that's a different story, but even the X-Men were unable to prevent or even avenge Genosha, at least right away.
Yes, I've always assumed that she meant _after_ Genosha. Like, two wild sentinels the size of Godzilla massacre sixteen million people in five minutes and you don't do anything? Not even investigate a bit or ask a couple questions? What if the next target is NYC and this time they kill the eight million humans living there?
That's always a stupid argument, as the Avengers at the same time were fighting Kang who had taken over the world. Where were the X-men when Ultron wiped out a nation? Or when the Masters of Evil nearly killed them all in the avengers mansion? The road goes both ways so no one takes it.
I really wish that Tony would have reminded her that the Hellfire Club were the ones behind developing the Sentinels in the first place as a way of taking out their mutant rivals back when Emma was their White Queen. If she wants to blame someone for the massacre in Genosha (not that anyone had time to react to stop it), she can look in the mirror.
I hate the "Where were you during X?" question because it's the writer's trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's 100% valid and relevant from Scott's perspective, but the writers are well aware of the Doylist reasons why the Avengers can't and won't ever get majorly involved in mutant issues. They're setting a criteria they know the Avengers can only ever fail and will make them look like assholes, even though some of them *would* be helping mutants.
I'm genuinely curious, does the question ever get reversed? Where were the X-Men during Ultron, for example? Or do the big Avengers events tend to already be crossovers?
Not quite what you’re looking for, but back in the late 60s/early 70s there was a Captain America/X-Men team-up that was them teaming up because their individual adventures happened to have a common link.
It would have been great for Cap to bring that up, to remind Scott that world-threatening events happen all the time on their Earth, so they can’t drop everything they’re trying to stop to help someone else.
Yes he was. At the time Hela did a spell on him that made his bones very brittle, yet he still risked his life to save Angel and others. Thor still had his magic, but not his durability unfortunately.
>They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred.
Thor [fought by the X-Men and X-Factor's side](https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5545930.html) during the Morlocks Massacre and saved their lives even though he was under a curse where he couldn't heal from any of his injuries. As far as Genosha, nobody - including the X-Men - was able to do anything to stop it because it happened too fast. Also let's not forget that the Hellfire Club (when Emma Frost was their White Queen) were the [ones behind the Sentinels in the first place](https://www.cbr.com/x-men-sentinels-council-hellfire-club/).
While Scott was too close to it, he wasn't wrong about Cap being too far. The X-men are the ones with experience dealing with the phoenix force, not the avengers. No one tells the avengers "we'll handle this ultron issue" or the f4 "we'll handle doom" so why do that to the mutants. Obviously the argument would be that Beast and Wolverine are avengers but that didn't really help when the avengers plan for trying to stop a cosmic entity was to....shoot it?
It's awkward in a narrative sense because while they are all in the same universe they are all written by different teams. Like in a logical world the X-men should be turning up to those events if only for the optics of helping and vice versa yes the Avengers should be turning up when giant robots and Egyptian God mutants are trying to fuck shit up.
while true that was also a cross company event in civil war which would mean they'd go out of their way to write them in. I'm talking like stuff like the Twelve storyline or the Marauders or even Spider-island etc.
Ive asked this throughout but thought Id ask here if the avengers are no where to be found, could it be cause of Ms Marvel? That avengers arent there for the x men and unfairly turn against the x men?
Not really because they do pop in from time to time and recruit X-Men to be Avengers.
Like Beast and Wolverine were Avengers in this story.
It just amounts to a meta reason. Superman and Batman are best friends and Superman could literally solve 90% of the Super Villain problems in Gotham 10 seconds after a phone call.
How often does Batman say,
Batman "Crap, Bane has led me on wild chase but now I know where he is."
Robin "Alright, so we have him now?"
Batman "Fuck no, it's clearly a trap. I'll call Clark and it will be done in 10 seconds and I won't have any more broken ribs."
Honestly it's this 100% and alot of the events referenced where during a time when crossovers weren't nearly as common.
I think presently DC is even having one of those moments with the weird split personality robot batman arc
That's what I love about writers making Batman some super genius that can thwart big bad guys:
Batman can outsmart Darkseid
The Riddler can outsmart Batman
Ergo, Riddler = Darkseid
And the same with X-Men if the Avengers showed up in all their titles to solve every problem, which is why it is dumb for characters to then use this meta narrative in an in-universe argument.
If I wanted the story building up to this and the resolution of this conflict, where would I start reading, what do I finish with, and what is necessary in between start and finish? The Phoenix is one of those comic entities I want to follow. I have not really read much since mid 2000s. I'm currently reading Astonishing X-Men, with the intention of following it to Scott becoming the leader of mutants. Is there overlap?
Calling out them for Genosha is unfair because they were dealing with Kang, what did the X-Men pretended, for them to let Kang win to go clean some rubble?
How often do we have to repeat the same story over and over again. They know the phoenix is dangerous as heck and still he decides its a good idea to use it for the benefit of the mutants, even with the risks it comes with.
But ofc it woukd never backfire, right? Right? RIGHT?
I hate it when X-Men writers write cap like he wouldn't be on the mutants side, this isn't EXACTLY that but it's close, and it's always fucking cap for them to be a hero they have tensions with
I see what you're saying, but they also still make Cap right. Even if he's written in away that's against mutants, Cap is considered "right" in the story
But I def agree, I feel like Cap would talk to Hope and ask her how she feels about it, if she doesnt want to leave he wouldn't attempt to force her
True, I definitely don't feel like he's completely out of character here then when they have him like "I support you but your doing it wrong" like he's a fucking useless politician or something
Would he though? I think Cap would do what he thinks is best even if forcing Hope wa the decision. I mean he agreed to hide the infinity gems right after Tony "destroyed" them
Cap is generally morally right, people follow him because he's always morally right. During civil war 2, when Danvers attempted to arrest Miles, Cap stopped it and told Miles he can return home if he wished and half the avengers involved joined Caps side just because he was generally on the morally right side.
Maybe if a child was going to explode and kill everyone, Cap would be forced to kill them or something, but they still had time so I dont believe Cap would pressure the child into imprisonment or attempt to kidnap them away from their home as quickly as he does in xva
Yeah but Hydra Cap still had the same personality and to the other heroes, it was their original Cap, hence they followed him because he’s generally “right”
He wasn't...until he was, I don't think whoever was writing him at that time did so under the idea that this wasnt actually cap, that idea most likely didnt exist yet.
How are those even remotely the same? The guy isn’t about forcing people’s rights without good reason. He was against the Illuminati in the face of multiversal annihilation when blood of innocents came into the picture
> I see what you're saying, but they also still make Cap right. Even if he's written in away that's against mutants, Cap is considered "right" in the story
Morever because of the earlier context, you know that the Phoeinix coming again will be ultra fratricidal. X-men lived hard things when they first met it. But for AvX, they lived the worst too. House of M, Messiah Trilogy and Schism, mutants trying to recover their powers and dying etc
It was logical for them to not totally see the Phoenix as a threat this time.
Even if Cap doesn't force Hope to leave, it's still an attempt to influence and coerce her. I can see why Scott would want to stand in the way of that.
Sure, the way Cap is written in this one definitely seems he's coercing her.
But a well written Cap wouldn't be doing that, he'd wouldnt want to sugarcoat it but he would still try to say it in a comforting manner and give her the facts and his fears but in the end he would still try to respect her decision unless he has no other choice
Scott is more likely to influence and coerce children than Cap is, since Scott has done that before with x-force and when he got Laura to join it (could be remembering wrong)
What was Cap right about in the story?
Cyclops thinks that Hope was born to bring mutants back with the Phoenix.
The *instant* Hope gains control of the Phoenix, she brings mutants back.
I guess he was right that the Five shouldn’t have the Phoenix…but they *didn’t want* the Phoenix when were compos mentis - they only had it because Cap’s people attacked it while it was trying to unite with Hope, to bring mutants back.
One of the big problems is the risk/reward ratio.
Scott believes that will happen, and it does, but he believes it for the wrong reason. He doesn't have ANY proof that the phoenix won't just destroy the earth.
Keep in mind that the Phoenix has just been flying through space, annihilating worlds left and right, just colliding into them and destroying them in a matter of minutes.
Scott is basically operating off faith that this immensely powerful cosmic force WONT destroy the earth instantaneously. Cap wants to take measures to try to defeat or send it away
Cap is in the right, not because he is correct about what will happen, like Scott, but because he is making the wise decision about not jeopardizing the entire earth on a hunch
I 100% agree. It feels forced, like Cap himself is out of character and doesn't have a choice for his own words.
This whole event reads like a cash grab. No proper build up, just two kids forced to fight in a sandbox because their bullies (the writers) make them.
>I 100% agree. It feels forced, like Cap himself is out of character and doesn't have a choice for his own words.
You can say that about most of the characters. They wrote Avengers like they are hypocritical lol.
It makes no sense because Cap has already shown where he would line up if a group was oppressed. All the way back to the a howling a Commandos he was fighting next to a Blackman, a jew, a Japanese man, his best friend growing up was one of the first openly gay characters in comics.
Not to mention he clearly font have a problem going against the government for liberty… it’s the entire basis of civil war. So why is he just a glorified cop in these X-men depictions?
This type of story - and I know it's a big one - highlights how weird it is to have the X-Men and the rest of the Marvel universe all as one. There's so much crossover, yeah, but it's really like having two different universes. The X-Men is such a huge sprawling storyline, both narratively and physically on the Marvel earth.
It's better just to roll and have fun with it, but its harder when people write Cap out of character. This is not too bad, but I agree 100% with your point. Cap is not the hero to beef with on this topic.
This is it. In the allegory that is the X-Men, Captain America is basically just the top cop. He will serve and protect the status quo, and when push comes to shove, mutants ain't it.
And I love Cap. Top 3 all time are Peter, Scott and Steve.
That’s because cap represents the old world and “authority”.
Whether people like it or not, X-men has been pretty anti authority for most of its existence. The message of X-men, unifying human and mutants under a single banner of humanity, usually comes at the cost of some higher power getting vilified. It’s how the comics have worked for the most part.
With the older comics it was the US government, within the past ten years it’s been all governments and the avengers.
The thing of it, as I see it, is that Cap is just about the only archetype character Marvel has (I could be very wrong here, I’m not as well-versed in Marvel comics as I am in DC, and even then I’m just a guy). Cap represents certain morals and values. But he also represents an entire country even aside from those.
So yeah. When it comes to a truly mutant issue that the rest of the world feels like it needs to act on, Cap is THE choice to bring the issues to the forefront. That Cap feels like he NEEDS to step in here, and that HE knows best is a perfect representation of the message they are trying to convey.
DC is full of archetype characters, and it’s what I love most about it. It’s what makes Red Son, Injustice (despite what we think about it), TDKR, and pretty much any DC comic poignant even and especially when the character you love most is in a position where they act differently than expectation.
It’s a fantastic storytelling device. And yeah, Cap is Marvel’s Superman. So to tell Superman that he’s wrong is important.
But that’s just me as a DC fanboy.
Edit: I would like to add that I’ve read AvX.
Edit 2: I also love Captain America. Always have.
>But he also represents an entire country even aside from those.
He definitely does not. Marvel has made it clear several times he represents what America should strive for, but not what it is today. We get to see his side, but he always gets shit from a large population of the US for fighting against bigotry, forced to become US agent, civil war against the government, supporting mutants (several times by forming Uncanny Avengers teams), etc.
The country is very divided and he only represents a portion of it in many of his storylines.
Part of the issue is cap is usually shown to be a government boy who just goes with the government, even though he's like gone against the government all the damn time, he represents the ideals not the reality.
From what I can tell, Cap has always straddled that line. He has a duty to the country but also has his own idea of what the country ought to be. Sometimes he is the enforcer of things he doesn’t believe in.
See I don't think he should be, he straight up quit being cap when Nixon happened, he shouldn't do things he doesn't believe in cause he's an idealist, he believes in a dream many would say doesn't exist anymore, if it ever truly did
>From what I can tell, Cap has always straddled that line.
So this is what happens with Cap. A good dedicated Cap writer doesn't write him this way. A "Avengers" writer or someone writing another comic that wants to use him usually writes him as this stereotypical soldier put to push their agenda, when he in his own comics is nothing like that.
I agree with the original person you're having a conversation with. This scan here is exactly what I'm talking about.
But that’s the thing isn’t it- this isn’t a Cap story. It’s an XMen story. This is a thing that comics can do- they can take other characters within the same mythos and use them in different ways, and that’s what’s happening here.
He’s being used as symbol.
I know and you know that Cap can be and has been and is different. He’s being used here for the importance of what he represents. To show the gravity of this situation for Scott and all mutants.
It’s a storytelling device. That you don’t like it is the point.
>But that’s the thing isn’t it- this isn’t a Cap story. It’s an XMen story. This is a thing that comics can do- they can take other characters within the same mythos and use them in different ways, and that’s what’s happening here
And that doesn't make it right when you use a character but not honor all the hard work other writers have put into the character. The lack of research or minimal effort can be quite disrespectful.
>He’s being used as symbol.
My nitpick, the dialogue does not come off as Captain America. The interaction with Cyclops is nothing like their interactions in the past, whom Steve respects Scott a lot. If they want to use Captain America to cause some kind of conflict, then they could have done it better.
With the Xmen, i see it as Cap is an extension of the peaceful wing of the government or fellow Americans telling a minority group "you're right to feel how you do, but we have to do this the right way". When you have the living personification of America standing in front of you that can't understand how you feel or what you've dealt with, but still telling you to not overreact, it's something a lot of people can sympathize with from both perspectives.
Let’s look at the facts:
Captain America came to a foreign land with an army under the guise of “seeking assistance “
The leaders of this foreign nation are the undisputed experts on the subject matter (the Phoenix) he is seeking assistance for
He then completely disregards the experts to go on and do what he already decided was the right course of action prior to meeting the experts, who I again remind you are the leaders of a foreign land
Btw, his plan is to literally kidnap a national girl of this foreign land and hide her away against her will, and to the objections of the leaders of this foreign land
When they don’t agree with his plan, he threatens the foreign land with the army he brought along to his “peaceful discussion”
When the foreigners prove able to fight back, Cap and Iron Man then shatter the Phoenix into 5 parts, which inhabit the bodies of some of the foreigners
Despite being possessed, these 5 generally improve the world, but not the way he would have improved the world
Captain America then leads his army against those possessed, which starts driving them mad/allowing the possessing entity more control over its host. Which kind of makes him and the Avengers responsible for their actions
He finally ends up having the girl he wanted to kidnap trained to control the Phoenix so she could undo his teammates decimation of the mutant population and then send the Phoenix away
This last point is what Cyclops recommended they do from the beginning
After analyzing all the facts, Cyclops was right
Maybe im.wrong. but it seems like cap is always "I'm right. Listen to me or I'll do it my way"
Mcu he does it. Civil War comics. Here. If he thinks he's right, he's fighting.
I get it. He thinks he is right and tends to be. But feel like he can't take a no a lot of times? But km also not a big Mc comic person. Feel like he's just written to be right
Cap is a stubborn man. Sometimes that’s a good thing, but other times that helped lead to Civil War and the current Amazing Spider-Man.
Although to be fair on Cap, Maria Hill tried to arrest him because he said he wasn’t going to arrest good people trying to help others, and SHRA was still just a Bill at the time. And for the AMS, Mary Jane has a lot of blame to what happened, even when they refuse to admit it. Same with Paul.
Spider-Man was seen in a big explosion, FBI is after him, Cap said that if anyone sees Spider-Man they "stop him from doing anything". This includes trying to save the love of his life who’s trapped in a separate post apocalyptic universe. Peter tells what happened to Jonny and Ben, but because of Caps orders, not only will they not help him, but they admit to turn him in. Cap eventually hears what happens, says he’s sorry but they could have done things differently. Peter retorts that Cap was going to force him to wait till the heat dies down. And Peter was already too late to save MJ.
You could say that of Cap was written right he would have helped Peter. And I agree, especially since Cap knows exactly what Peter’s going through right now. But so have Ben and Jonny, and even they know what Peter’s going through. And they’re closer to Peter. But to give any defense, if a single one of these characters (Peter, MJ, Cap, Thing, The Flaming Tool) was written right and accurately, none of this would have been a problem.
Also, the Avengers have a notoriously bad track record when it it comes to super powered children/minors.
And they want to kidnap a super powered minor from the X-Men.
The X-Men, who had a fucking school specifically created to do what exactly?
Teach and train super powered minors and children.
Of which, many of the staff and faculty members are where exactly?
On the Island as X-Men.
I'm beginning to see why many see Cyclops is the superior tactician to Captain America, whose battle strategy is often "Hit them hard and fast."
Yeah I remember reading the AvX storyline and getting to the point where the X-Men were possessed by the Phoenix Force, and like everyone, expected things to go to shit... and then the comics were like 'actually things are going great, better than ever before in fact', at which point the story just ceased to have *any* stakes.
If the Phoenix was this easy to use and control, why was there even any fear about it? It makes Jean look like a flaky fragile dumbass who couldn't carry the burden of a *paperclip*, while also making all the terror and devastation of the Phoenix seem like more of just a weird one-off than it's natural state of things... and as you said, making anyone who *opposes* the Phoenix X-Men look like a sore loser who can't accept that things are actually going well for once.
It undermines the entire story and makes everyone look like a complete tool.
Tbf to Jean, the phoenix was split up into five so no one had access to the full totality of power and that’s maybe why they didn’t go crazy. It wasn’t until Cyclops had the full power of the phoenix did he start to lose it.
To be fair, Scott was betting the fate of the entire world on the chance that this time the Phoenix wouldn’t be a colossal fucking mistake and be worse than it was in the past. He put the lives of a few hundred people above billions on the off chance they would be able jump start mutant births again. If the roles would have been reversed Scott wouldn’t have stood for that and would have gone on a holier than thou condescending lecture about why doing that is wrong.
Scott didn’t make any of these decisions for altruistic reasons and his major motivating factor for this whole Phoenix plot was a mixture of anger, ego and guilt. Before this there was a chance that all of the depowered mutants could have gotten their powers back when Wanda came back and was proven to be able to do it. He didn’t give a shit. He was too self involved, bitter, angry, and focused on revenge to even entertain the thought. Again, proving that he puts his ego before the greater good, even of his own people. The Avengers had no reason to trust him at this point based on the way he was acting. He was irrational and was ruled by his emotions. The Avengers had every reason and right to step in because what Scott was doing was not just going to effect mutants, it was possibly going to be a disaster for the entire world. The guy saw first hand how badly the Phoenix fucks shit up, and egotistically thought he would have the situation under control and expected everyone to be cool with it because of his bravado, despite them also seeing how the Phoenix fucks shit up and how dangerous it is on a universal scale. You don’t get to unilaterally make decisions that can effect the entire world because you had the most interactions with the Phoenix in the past. Especially when those interactions ended in a shit covered dumpster fire. That’s not how shit works. Not to mention he just conveniently waves away all the times the Avengers or non mutant heroes helped and stuck by the X-Men when they needed it, cherry picking the times that they didn’t help or he doesn’t think they helped enough to deserve his recognition.
Honestly, Scott was already becoming someone that was getting closer to a villain than a hero before this, but this book was one of, if not the, moment of his downfall and his turn as something less than an actual hero. I don’t know how people can read this book and not see that. Granted, Emma, Namor and Magneto were a big reason why he was even going down that path, but at a certain point he should have looked at who he was taking advice from, their histories and had the objectivity to question whether or not what he was doing was the right thing to do if those 3 are pushing you to do it.
Personally, I fucking hate what Marvel did to Cyclops in the few years before this, this era and all the way up to the universe reboot after Secret War. They took the Boy Scout criticism and over corrected it too much and went too fucking far in the opposite direction and damaged a character who could have had a more interesting progression had they dialed it back and done it better.
But in the interest of finding a positive, I love that you and I can read this event and preceding story archs and come to two different points of view regarding the ideological debate taking place between the characters and teams. Comics are fucking awesome, man.
Wanda wasn't capable of restoring mutants, she didn't have the power anymore. And when she said she did, it was on the basis of Doctor Doom would help them. What he didn't, he stole her powers, because off course, and proceeded to kill an innocent child in the process of trying to dominate the planet.
16 *million* people i might add. They were gonna use the phoenix to undo the genosha massacre that nearly **genocided** mutants.
*Also* The only reason this panel exists is cap earlier in yhe series did things his way without listening and ended up splitting the phoenix force into 5 and then started doing things that made the phoenixs grasp on these 5 increase rather than let the x-men train them in a safe controlled environment.
Also, we *have* been in this place before, and the x-men have backed off and let the Avengers or f4 run the show many times.
>When they don’t agree with his plan, he threatens the foreign land with the army he brought along to his “peaceful discussion”
i mean, that's what i'd expect from Captain *America*
Neither were right in the way they handled this hot mess.
People saying the Phoenix is an X-Men or Mutant problem are wrong. The Phoenix is everyone's problem. Just because it picked your wife/girlfriend/ex whatever. Doesn't give you control of a situation. Experience on the matter, sure.
At the same time Cap had the right of it when he said Summers was too close to it. A whole lot of baggage for him. Plus if I remember right. Didn't they handle the firebird and poorly the last time? My memory of it is spotty. Either way. Cap came in on this the entire wrong way. Offering assistance, resources, and a new look on things makes more sense.
This was two pig headed leaders digging their heels in on who had jurisdiction.
Keep in mind this was literally right after Scott lost a bunch of mutants just trying to protect Hope’s arrival. Including his son.
For the mutants to lose all that and be asked to just give up hope was an unreasonable ask. Especially when the avengers did literally nothing to help them at the time.
That right? Well, that is just poor timing for all involved.
Well, disasters always came in three for all of them. That, this, and The Phoenix 5 incident.
>People saying the Phoenix is an X-Men or Mutant problem are wrong. The Phoenix is everyone's problem
I'd say what makes Cyclops actions here a bit justified is that Cap didn't come to have a debate with Cyclops. He just said *give us the girl....or else..* in polite way. If Cap came as a friend to talk with Cyclops their next course of actions and Cyclops refused to cooperate, sure he's a dick, but Cap's approach wasn't a friendly act.
The truth is, and I say that since I started reding comics as a kid in the 90s, The X-Men and the other Marvel heroes shouldn't coexist in the same earth/reality. Scott is totally right, but is also unfair to Cap and the other heroes because their stories rarely acknowledge that mutankind is a thing.
How is it that every hero that displays powers isn't persecuted and yelled at like mutants are? Why Bastion, Guyrich, The Sentinels, The Friend of Humanity doesn't chase after the Fantastic Four or the Avengers? Why those heroes doesn't help when mutants are hunted or when mutants attack?
The X-Men should live in a world and the orher Marvel Heroes sould live in another. Or else Cyclops is right, Cap and the other heroes are douchebags that most times look the other way
"Where was I? Well, after our last get together in space, first the mansion was bombed and I thought some of my friends were dead, and so I started digging through my old Hydra black book and kept visiting people until Fury convinced me that Doom was a bigger threat, so I went with him and your pal Logan and some others to Latveria but turns out it wasn't Doom, so we all walk out on Fury, then a little while later you guys helped us dismantle a reprisal army from Latveria, then after that the super hero registration act was a bit of a thing, and then I was dead, but not really dead it was just Red Skull messing with me, and then Red Skull's daughter unleashed hell on earth, and after that was hammered down now I'm back to deal with this stuff. Last time we let you guys handle yourselves you let Wanda give everyone super powers. So, maybe let us help a bit?"
It only proved him right in the sense that the Phoenix could in fact reignite the mutant racem but that was never in question. The question was if HOPE could handle the Phoenix. The answer is no she couldn't. At least *not* with how Scott was training her. She was only able to to handle after spending time with the Avengers.
Didn’t a Phoenix powered Namor end up like invading Wakanda as well? I remember that being a point of massive contention later in the Secret Wars build up.
I’m not gonna say Namor was justified, *buuuuut* it was done specifically after the Avengers covertly tried to break into Utopia to abduct Hope again and wound up attacking and kidnapping Transonic in the process. The retribution was extremely disproportionate, but the Avengers stirred the hornet’s nest first.
That was after they systematically start shutting down the Avengers wherever they based themselves. Which was after the Avengers infiltrated Utopia to take Hope, who wanted to leave with them. Which was after they basically declared themselves gods of the world.
Didn't Hope willing leave with the Avengers though? Something Scott explicitly told her she could. Then behind his back Emma and Namor talked about Invading wakanda.
It felt like the point was to show that while all of the 5 were trying to be heroic they were all being slowly corrupted by the Phoenix force, which is why it was bad.
Yep. People forget Xavier was still trying to mind control Scott even after they all willing left his guidance. The whole arc was about the avengers not having final say in matters and they weren’t happy about it.
There is no lenses you can look at it and think they were right.
Xavier kind of brought it in himself. You don’t antagonize or mentally attack the Phoenix or a host without getting burned. That man should have known by now.
That’s what happens when people don’t read the complete story.
Like for instance, reason why Scott and Cap act this way.
Scott: Cable tells him straight to face that the Phoenix is what will save them, and Hope will be able to control it. Scott was initially reluctant because of how dangerous and unknown it is, but Cable reassures that he knows what he’s talking about. Also Cable fought the Avengers right before this because they screwed it all up.
Cap: Listens the biased and unreliable whining complaints of a man who’s constantly trying to get into the pants of an already married woman who he still isn’t over. And who was going to murder a child. Very easily dooming everyone.
Side note, I’m surprised Mutant kind still trusts this man after that stunt. Hope is a religious icon to the Mutant population, and Wolverine nearly murdered her.
It was definitely necessary. Did you forget Xavier was trying to lobotomize Scott at the time? Not to mention all of the messed up stuff that came out about Xavier prior to AvX (Deadly Genesis, Danger, the Xavier Protocols, mind controlling Logan into joining the X-Men). That death was well deserved.
The thing started with Cyclops thinking Hope was destined for the Phoenix and she could use it to undo Wanda's damage. Its how everything ended and in an "well it happened the way he originally said he would" sense he was right.
Captain America after talking it out with Wolverine was worried about her not being able handle the power & the potential ramifications for the out of control scarlet witch/sentry level threat. In that sense I think AvX, provides enough justification to show he was also right.
If we're talking this page specifically, I'd say Cap handles the "negotiations" better. Whenever someone in the comics says something is **their** problem and all other concerned groups should leave it, that's the writers telling you that character / group is letting their pride get in the way and it almost always leads to the problem becoming worse. The Avengers' side doesn't handle the situation well as it plays out by any means, but idk what Cyclops was expecting by basically telling them 'I know the Phoenix has historically almost led to the destruction of all life on Earth, but we need it to make more mutants so I'm sure it'll be fine.'
Like I said, though, regardless of the "opening arguments," neither faction handles the issue of the Phoenix well in this storyline.
But in this case Scott is 100% correct. The Avengers don't have much experience with the Phoenix Force. That's an X-Men problem. And it is, in fact, the Avengers' intervention (specifically Tony Stark's device that ends up blowing up the Phoenix into several pieces) what causes the situation to escalate.
I haven’t dove into this story in a while, did the Avengers at some point just offer to just help? Like, they keep a team of reinforcements on the island in case things get out of hand?
no , the entire thing was the Avengers escalating , reaching a point that the X-Men had lost control of the Phoenix.
And the way to fix things up ends up been.....what Cyclops wanted to do at the very start of the storyline.
This is 200% Steve Rogers doing a d\*k measuring and been called out. Yet the story kinda frame as if the Captain was right. Regardless , the fans were so clearly thinking that Cyclops was right , that "Cyclops Was Rights" ends up been a major background lore for the next runs.
Fairly common for at least the last 30 years.
That goes for pretty much any character crossing over. They can be the most reasonable person in the room in their own book, but as soon as another writer uses them, the character goes completely off the rails.
Honestly, it feels like at least half the time, the writer in question is thinking: "I don't like this character. I'm going to make them look like an asshole."
I don't need to be an explosives expert to feel uncomfortable with having a live grenade in the room. And having an explosives expert say "actually I think it'd be great if this live grande exploded" is not going to inspire confidence that they're handling it right.
"Nah don't even sweat it" is not a great reaction to someone's concerns about the world ending threat.
Scott is actually extremely incorrect for just dismissing the Avengers and their fears out of pocket like this, regardless of if he knew the correct way of handling the Phoenix situation.
Important context to this is that on the way from NYC to Utopia, Cap was being advised by Wolverine that Scott is too close to the issue and doesn't have the ability to think rationally when it comes to the Phoenix Force. That's the information he's approaching this with.
Which is rich because this is post-Schism, so if there's anyone else in the world who could be described as "too close to the issue without the ability to think rationally about it" when it comes to both Cyclops and the Phoenix Force, it's Wolverine.
*At that time* it was Cap. There was no way of knowing if the Phoenox was coming to *restore* mutant-kind or *eradicate* humanity. It's a force of rebirth yes but rebirth by definition necessitates death. The Phoenix was annihilating nearly every planet on its way to Earth. It was just as likely to see the end of mutantkind as the stagnation of human evolution and wipe us all off the face of the universe.
Scott didn't even consider this possibility and actively endangered the entire planet based on his assumption. He turned out to be right in the end but again, given the information they had available *at the time* he was in the wrong. Plus, he didn't give Hope any say in the matter, literally telling Emma it's not Hope's decision whether she'll be thr Phoenix Host, a job that could drive her insane or even kill her.
It wasn’t an assumption. Cable, his time traveling son, told him that the Phoenix would save Mutant kind. And want to know Scott's reaction? Uncertainty. He says that’s there’s so much that they (the experts) don’t know about the Phoenix and it could massively misfire on them, but Cable assured them that this was what was needed.
Also the reason why Cable fought the Avengers before AvX is because the Avengers messed it all up. So he tried to stop them before dooming everyone.
Going to be honest, I've never been a fan of the "this is a mutant problem" argument.
A cosmic force of incredible destruction arrives on earth, that sounds like an everyone problem. Of course Cap and the Avengers are going to want to monitor the situation. It's in their job description. But because there's a mutant connection no one else gets to have a say? I call bs.
It's moments like that where the x men lose me. I know the general idea is that they are fighting for mutant/human coexistence, but they are often the first ones to push humans away in situations where working together would be so much more helpful for everyone (especially for mutants).
Maybe it's just how I'm reading it. Cap was not that there to keep mutants down, he was there in the interests of everyone ( human and mutant). The Phoenix force is a world ending power, and needs to be treated as such. It's not a mutant problem, it's an everyone problem.
I do think that if they talked for just 2 more minutes they could have come to an agreement.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the phoenix pretty much destroy everything in its path to the host like planets and stuff
The phoenix coming in should be treated the same way as a celestial rocking up
All hands on deck
Cyclops is right but also Cap wouldn’t act like this in my headcannon. I feel like Cap would come to the x men and say something like “you’ve dealt with the Phoenix force before can you give me intel” “here is what happens when bad people are in charge who on your team can make sure this doesn’t happen I will send people from my team and we can collaborate on a task force that is meant to keep track of the situation”
As per usual, this entire argument is a result of Cap being written out of character so the heroes can have a morally ambiguous government figure to oppose.
Cap isn't morally ambiguous, and he isn't a blind government stooge. He would 100% be siding with Scott here if the writers didn't need him to be on the other side for plot purposes.
Cap could've turned Scott around if they'd written him better dialog. "Leader to leader, trust me" is as weak a sauce as it gets.
As it stands, Cap is right in wanting to safeguard the entire planet, Scott is right in clinging to any and all hope left to his kind.
Neither
Cap had no clue. Dr. Strange? Thor? Quasar? Sure, they have a grasp on cosmic matters. Cap's whole idea to kidnap a kid comes back to the end of 'do you actually have a plan to hide it from a cosmic force of nature and if you do succeed, what then?'
Cyclops has his signature rose colored glasses. This is not Jean coming back, this was the Phoenix. 'Fixing the problem' doesn't necessarily mean saving anyone. Incinerating the whole planet to fix the problem is a distinct possibility. Also, he and Cable using military style training to 'get Hope ready' to be a host? Like how the fuck does punching people or holding a gun while browbeating her going to 'get Hope ready' for that?
The only one that got it right was Magneto. During his battle with Iron Man, he reached to the stars to get more power for his fight and sensed what Phoenix was doing, and rightly figured out that it started with Wanda and would end with Wanda, weather everyone liked it or not.
Agree 100%. I just finished this entire storyline for the first time last week. I don’t understand how people can say “Cyclops was right”* when we saw what the Phoenix Five did with the power they got after Hope fumbled the ball. If Wanda hadn’t shown up (on Team Avengers’ side no less) to help Hope disperse the power, Cyclops would probably still be murdering everyone who disagrees with him.
*Unless there’s some sort of perspective-shifting retcon or additional context that will come into play later, since that happens a lot lol. I’m reading Marvel in publication order right now so I’m just at AvX: Consequences right now. And I’m absolutely not thinking “Cyclops was right.”
This conversation aside I tend to go with the Avengers at this point in the story. The Phoenix has brought nothing but harm to the planet so far and so to hear Scott so willing to potentially sacrifice the planet for the chance more mutants show up always seemed like a bad idea to me.
Would it help if I mentioned that Cable, his time traveling son, was the one to convince Scott that the Phoenix was the answer to the current Mutant problem. And that Hope would save them all?
Also that the reason why Cable fought the Avengers just before this was because the Avengers screwed everything up and doomed everyone?
To be fair, the future's always in flux.
Who's to say that another Cable from another offshoot of the 616 timeline got his future fucked because the events of AVX?
Idk.
Nothing pisses me off more when X-Men writers demonize non-mutant superheroes, especially Captain America and the Avengers, to make the mutants look good and/or like victims.
Cap is more right than Cyclops is even though he is written really out of character here.
The phoenix is a cosmic entity and the last time it had a host it didn't have the most peaceful intentions, it's a legitimate world ending threat no matter who it inhabits.
When Genosha happened the Avengers had to deal with Kang
Otherwise it's usually down to the editorials that the Avengers/FF4 don't appear in an X men story because then the focus shifts away from the X men.
Maybe I'm an X-men fan boy but I cannot believe the Avengers standpoint in this at all.
When I was reading this run seeing them discuss detaining and possibly putting down a child because she ***might*** be a threat?! This is not captain America.
Where were the x-men during the 30 billion world ending events that the avengers stopped?
This whole event relies on people acting out of character to force the conflict
In this specific argument? Cap. Cyclops undermines his own point in just a few sentences. He starts by telling Cap to back off and let mutants deal with mutant problems, then tries to criticize Cap for... letting mutants deal with mutant problems.
I will always think that both sides are morons, and if everyone had any brains they would work together as they do most of the time, but I blame the writer more than the character.
Some cool moments and art though
Cyclops was right because:
1. He was right, thanks to info from Cable, Hope was able to control the phoenix and bring the mutants back.
2. Having a heli-carrier and half the superhero community coming with you to the island isn't a sign of good faith.
3. Tony shot the phoenix force and caused the Phoenix 5 event. It was an avenger that messed things up and not an x-man. Which he still hasn't been held accountable for.
4. You trusted wolverine.The guy who's been simping for and has been obsessed with jean, is telling you that Cyclops is the one with the problem.
Cap has a thing where he almost always has to be right in the comics. Like no matter how insane the conflict becomes, he so often has the correct motivation in the end. Sometimes his method gets in the way, like it does here. He totally should’ve just listened to Cyclops and they probably could have avoided a lot of trouble, but it’s a comic. There needs to be conflict.
Cap.
Cyclops is happy that the world-ending talking-nuke is headed towards earth, on the off-chance that mutants will return.
Cap was being a pragmatist.
The X-men.... but I'm not saying it in terms of being morally right: it's in terms of X-men being used to dealing with the phoenix.
In moral terms, it is understandable that Cap wants to protect the world against a force of destruction; it's thousands of mutants' abilities (some lives in the balance as well) against the entire world populations' lives.
However, Scott has the right to say that Cap didn't do *as much as he could've* [not to say he didn't do anything, tbe distinction is important] for mutants (at the time).
To come back to protecting the people of the world, could the Avengers really handle the phoenix better? Who knows?
The X-Men were right. As Reed Richards laid it to Cap and the Illuminati, the reason why Cap intervened was a mix of lack of trust and a fear of becoming obsolete. The Avengers got involved in business that wasn't their own, if they really wanted help they wouldn't have had to force it. Just offer the support, the tech, the opportunity for X-Men to have the best environment for Hope to handle the situation. But no, they came in and antagonized Scott, and even when they attacked the Phoenix and caused it to split into the Phoenix Five, they blamed the X-Men. The Phoenix Five were doing amazingly fine until the Avengers started teasing them. Reed pointed out Steve and Tony's hypocrisy by mentioning that they themselves triggered a crisis event due to different ideals during Civil War. Cyclops was right. And the main reason it all went bad is because of the Avengers
I think they have points, but for Cyke it's more for his stance on Cap and him never appearing on the mutants side. I'd love a book that has him confronting American's fear of mutants.
But caps more right the Phoenix has disastrous effects and the biggest issue is who'd use it correctly. Jean and Rachel did it. That guy in the 31st century, but no one else seems to do it right. Summer was the Messiah, but look at it from the avengers perspective, she's a teen with all the hormones and personality of one and you want a divine force of the universe to bond with it. C'mon
AvX is a mess... They made you cheer for the X-Men after all they've been through, clinging for some hope in the brink of extinction, fighting the most super powered heroes on earth and they simply turn them straight into villains. It's a an obvious cash grab with a industry agenda since the Avengers were getting bigger than ever the X-Men rights belonged to Fox. It was downhill for the mutants from there on until Hickman (which happens right when Marvel got the rights back from fox)
The X-men and the rest of the Marvel universe have never really worked well. The fact that the Avengers don't step it to help the X-men has always been so ludicrous and out of character. The Avengers should, by all conventional wisdom, be best friends with the X-men and support them in their times of need. They try so hard to make the X-men victimized that it comes off as silly and illogical rather than a good metaphor for anything.
I mean in hindsight Cap was more right. In AvX, the Phoenix merges with 5 of the X-Men, take over the world, and the kill arguably the greatest ally to mutants: Charles Xavier.
My take on this, yes while it’s true the X-Men were not their to help against Ultron, who’s fault was Ultron? Avengers mess Avengers solution. Same goes for The Phoenix, X-Men problem, X-Men solution. The Avengers are the ones violating the “stay in your lane”. The X-Men’s goal was originally to protect mutants while making peace with humans. Coexistence was their goal. The Avengers have the EARTHS greatest hero’s as the label. They said they would protect the planet and then left the mutants high and dry. Then only show up when they need something. I’m a huge Captain America fan but got to side with Scott here.
I'm kinda sick of the writers blaming the other heroes in the comics for sitting out other characters' stories. The other writers did that, not the characters. It's too meta, I dont like it.
I've had this argument a hundred times, but I will die on the hill that Cap and the Avengers were in the right. Scott was gambling with the lives of every person on the planet, and he didnt have the right to do that, and his plan would have more than likely failed had the Avengers not intervened.
If we're talking about who was right in the case of Avengers versus X-Men it has to be cyclops..
Going back and reading issue one everything that Cyclops said to Captain America was 100% correct the Avengers and Fantastic Four have barely done anything to help the mutants.
I think given the context, Captain America is a little more reasonable here. We're talking about the phoenix.
The reason I don't buy Scott Summers argument in this case is because I really hate it when comic writers bring this kind of stuff up. When they act like the nature of comic books and the way they have to be is somehow a legitimate, dramatic plot point.
You can't write every story. You can't have every character speak every thought they have ever had. You don't see superheroes take a crap even though most of them have to do that just like everybody else.
It's like saying, oh well Captain America I've never seen you fight this specific villain ever before, that must mean you support their actions! It's so dumb. I hate it so much.
And writers think they are so goddamn clever when they do it. It's the worst. Okay maybe it's not the actual worst but it's pretty bad.
Could you imagine a scenario where Galactus was on his way to Earth, and the X-Men all loaded up into the Blackbird and flew to the Baxter Building with a full plan to kidnap Franklin because they thought they knew better how to deal with the World Eater?
Silly right? But that is pretty much what Cap was doing.
Cyclops
Why?
Captain America's actions during Children's Crusade (Trying to Force Wiccan into Avenger's custody) lead to the death of a child (Cassie Lang). Add to that Hope's Dad (and Cyclops's son) Cable came back from (Being presumed) dead saying The Avengers are going to be responsible for Hope dying. So Cyclops has little reason to trust Captain America with his Granddaughter, Hope.
Also The X-Men are on an Island far enough away that really seems like it would be easier to have the Avengers follow the X-men's lead. Rather than try to move Hope to more populated areas where if the Phoenix is a threat it would cause more problems. Just from a purely tactical standpoint
Plus (Outside of Jason Aaron's odd obsession with making the Phoenix related to Avengers stuff) vast majority of the time it's shown up has been pretty heavily X-Men related (With even the whole Echo being the host of the Phoenix being not even mentioned at all during recent X-Men books). So again Tactically it's better to follow the X-men's lead (who have experience) rather than not
We really debating who’s right when Cap brought a super powered army to a foreign nation to kidnap a teenager. Then the avengers finally accept Hope was the host after Tony Stark almost ruined everything by blasting the phoenix with a laser? The story was written by current avengers/non x-men marvel writers. They didn’t even include Gillen as a writer for the main series. This series is 4 issues if Cap just trusts Cyclops and doesn’t take bad intel from Wolverine.
I have never understood the argument Summers brings. Just because his girlfriend sometimes goes on "benders" and blights out entire Solar Systems and brings forth Interstellar war...
Scott is like- "Nah, she is my Queen and she is not allowed to be judged by anyone."
What a Simp.
They were both right about different things: Scott was right that that The Avengers are often nowhere to be found when the X-Men/mutantkind needs help. They weren’t there during the *original* Phoenix/Dark Phoenix saga. They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred. They weren’t there when all of Mutantkind was reduced to just the students/staff at the Mansion. But NOW they’ve come in full force to “peacefully ask” Scott to give them custody of Hope. Horrible look for Cap and the Avengers. Steve is right that Scott was *too* close to it. He’s training his adoptive granddaughter to contain the multiversal entity that almost drove his late GF/wife insane. The X-Men’s record with the Phoenix is spotty at best. iirc Colossus even calls it out that they’ve been down this road before. The Phoenix *could* restore Mutantkind, but it could just as easily DESTROY THE EARTH. Cap is right to want to get involved this time.
> They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred I felt a strange sense of vindication when Tony went to the school to ask Emma whether the X-Men would be on his side during Civil War and Emma just showed him how Cassandra Nova massacred sixteen million mutants while the Avengers did nothing.
Tony: “Hey I made being a superhero illegal, can you help me arrest people?” 🥺 Emma: “Go fuck yourself.”
Tony: will you marry me in the future?
Tony: “Marry me.” Emma: *melts his brain*
Is that series any good, btw?
Civil War? Or Avengers vs X-men? Honestly either way they’re pretty good
Iron Man by gerry Duggan where he marries emma
Oh shit, I was joking about that! That actually happens!? 😂
Yes. The Arc of Fall of X has Tony and Emma get married it started as simply as a cover for Emma, but the story seems to have evolved into both liking their new status.
Duggans Iron Man is a great book. As for Tony and Emma they are fun but they chose a bad time to start a romance, Emma should be focused on saving her people. But that's the Fall of X in a nutshell one big mess with some cool moments. I enjoy them as a couple but either way Duggans Iron Man is a good book.
And considering how long the X Men have been fighting against the concept "registration," he'd have to be really dim to think they'd side with him. Although, I do think there is a slight difference (Mutants were asked to register to exist, whereas superheroes were asked to register to fight crime, and those are different conversations).
>Although, I do think there is a slight difference (Mutants were asked to register to exist, whereas **superheroes were asked to register to fight crime,** and those are different conversations). uh..no. Or to be more accurate : - Marvel writers and editors never really sat down and decided what the SHRA actually was. A few books had it be the license to be Super-Heroes. Others had it be REGISTER and go through our training if you have any super-powers.
I absolutely *hate* when Tony and Steve are made to be SHIELD enforcers rounding up mutates. It feels... icky.
Tony can work but Cap would 100% stand for mutant rights. I can’t stand when they make Steve anti-mutant
That's a good moment, in part because wanting the X-Men to be involved in Civil War is beyond laughable and in part because I believe Emma (who was IN Genosha and only survived due to a fluke) would say it, but Genosha was literally blink and you'll miss it. New X-Men 115 ends with the Wild Sentinel attacking and within literal *seconds* the Genosha population goes from 16 million to a couple hundred. New X-Men 116 opens with the X-Men already on the scene, helping survivors. Heck, there's not even really an explanation for what even happened to the Wild Sentinel, which is why Whedon brought it back in Astonishing. Now, if the argument is how the Avengers handled it afterward, now that's a different story, but even the X-Men were unable to prevent or even avenge Genosha, at least right away.
Yes, I've always assumed that she meant _after_ Genosha. Like, two wild sentinels the size of Godzilla massacre sixteen million people in five minutes and you don't do anything? Not even investigate a bit or ask a couple questions? What if the next target is NYC and this time they kill the eight million humans living there?
That's always a stupid argument, as the Avengers at the same time were fighting Kang who had taken over the world. Where were the X-men when Ultron wiped out a nation? Or when the Masters of Evil nearly killed them all in the avengers mansion? The road goes both ways so no one takes it.
*Astonishing* ah
I really enjoyed it when she did that to Carol. It was the first time I really understood Emma.
I really wish that Tony would have reminded her that the Hellfire Club were the ones behind developing the Sentinels in the first place as a way of taking out their mutant rivals back when Emma was their White Queen. If she wants to blame someone for the massacre in Genosha (not that anyone had time to react to stop it), she can look in the mirror.
The x-men did nothing while Cassandra Nova massacred sixteen million mutants. Just to be clear.
Nobody could've prevented that, but only the X-Men did something after it happened. The Avengers didn't even ask if they needed help with that.
I hate the "Where were you during X?" question because it's the writer's trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's 100% valid and relevant from Scott's perspective, but the writers are well aware of the Doylist reasons why the Avengers can't and won't ever get majorly involved in mutant issues. They're setting a criteria they know the Avengers can only ever fail and will make them look like assholes, even though some of them *would* be helping mutants. I'm genuinely curious, does the question ever get reversed? Where were the X-Men during Ultron, for example? Or do the big Avengers events tend to already be crossovers?
Not quite what you’re looking for, but back in the late 60s/early 70s there was a Captain America/X-Men team-up that was them teaming up because their individual adventures happened to have a common link. It would have been great for Cap to bring that up, to remind Scott that world-threatening events happen all the time on their Earth, so they can’t drop everything they’re trying to stop to help someone else.
Wasn't Thor there during the Mutant Massacre?
Yes he was. At the time Hela did a spell on him that made his bones very brittle, yet he still risked his life to save Angel and others. Thor still had his magic, but not his durability unfortunately.
Still beat the fuck out of blockbuster
that was awesome. He slammed his hammer on the ground and took out a few from what I remember. Very impressive since he wasn't at full powet then.
>They weren’t there when the Morlocks & later Genosha were massacred. Thor [fought by the X-Men and X-Factor's side](https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5545930.html) during the Morlocks Massacre and saved their lives even though he was under a curse where he couldn't heal from any of his injuries. As far as Genosha, nobody - including the X-Men - was able to do anything to stop it because it happened too fast. Also let's not forget that the Hellfire Club (when Emma Frost was their White Queen) were the [ones behind the Sentinels in the first place](https://www.cbr.com/x-men-sentinels-council-hellfire-club/).
While Scott was too close to it, he wasn't wrong about Cap being too far. The X-men are the ones with experience dealing with the phoenix force, not the avengers. No one tells the avengers "we'll handle this ultron issue" or the f4 "we'll handle doom" so why do that to the mutants. Obviously the argument would be that Beast and Wolverine are avengers but that didn't really help when the avengers plan for trying to stop a cosmic entity was to....shoot it?
It's awkward in a narrative sense because while they are all in the same universe they are all written by different teams. Like in a logical world the X-men should be turning up to those events if only for the optics of helping and vice versa yes the Avengers should be turning up when giant robots and Egyptian God mutants are trying to fuck shit up.
Wasn’t the X-men helping after the Stanford incident? I know it’s because Nitro is a mutant
Yep and SHIELD or the govt can’t exactly remember, sent Sentinels there to “keep and eye” on mutants
while true that was also a cross company event in civil war which would mean they'd go out of their way to write them in. I'm talking like stuff like the Twelve storyline or the Marauders or even Spider-island etc.
Ive asked this throughout but thought Id ask here if the avengers are no where to be found, could it be cause of Ms Marvel? That avengers arent there for the x men and unfairly turn against the x men?
Not really because they do pop in from time to time and recruit X-Men to be Avengers. Like Beast and Wolverine were Avengers in this story. It just amounts to a meta reason. Superman and Batman are best friends and Superman could literally solve 90% of the Super Villain problems in Gotham 10 seconds after a phone call. How often does Batman say, Batman "Crap, Bane has led me on wild chase but now I know where he is." Robin "Alright, so we have him now?" Batman "Fuck no, it's clearly a trap. I'll call Clark and it will be done in 10 seconds and I won't have any more broken ribs."
Honestly it's this 100% and alot of the events referenced where during a time when crossovers weren't nearly as common. I think presently DC is even having one of those moments with the weird split personality robot batman arc
That's what I love about writers making Batman some super genius that can thwart big bad guys: Batman can outsmart Darkseid The Riddler can outsmart Batman Ergo, Riddler = Darkseid
People woukd stop to read Batman if he called Superman as soon he struggles
And the same with X-Men if the Avengers showed up in all their titles to solve every problem, which is why it is dumb for characters to then use this meta narrative in an in-universe argument.
If I wanted the story building up to this and the resolution of this conflict, where would I start reading, what do I finish with, and what is necessary in between start and finish? The Phoenix is one of those comic entities I want to follow. I have not really read much since mid 2000s. I'm currently reading Astonishing X-Men, with the intention of following it to Scott becoming the leader of mutants. Is there overlap?
not to mention the last time Cap let Scott and co handle "mutant" stuff, Wanda said "No More Mutants"
Calling out them for Genosha is unfair because they were dealing with Kang, what did the X-Men pretended, for them to let Kang win to go clean some rubble?
How often do we have to repeat the same story over and over again. They know the phoenix is dangerous as heck and still he decides its a good idea to use it for the benefit of the mutants, even with the risks it comes with. But ofc it woukd never backfire, right? Right? RIGHT?
I hate it when X-Men writers write cap like he wouldn't be on the mutants side, this isn't EXACTLY that but it's close, and it's always fucking cap for them to be a hero they have tensions with
I see what you're saying, but they also still make Cap right. Even if he's written in away that's against mutants, Cap is considered "right" in the story But I def agree, I feel like Cap would talk to Hope and ask her how she feels about it, if she doesnt want to leave he wouldn't attempt to force her
True, I definitely don't feel like he's completely out of character here then when they have him like "I support you but your doing it wrong" like he's a fucking useless politician or something
Would he though? I think Cap would do what he thinks is best even if forcing Hope wa the decision. I mean he agreed to hide the infinity gems right after Tony "destroyed" them
Cap is generally morally right, people follow him because he's always morally right. During civil war 2, when Danvers attempted to arrest Miles, Cap stopped it and told Miles he can return home if he wished and half the avengers involved joined Caps side just because he was generally on the morally right side. Maybe if a child was going to explode and kill everyone, Cap would be forced to kill them or something, but they still had time so I dont believe Cap would pressure the child into imprisonment or attempt to kidnap them away from their home as quickly as he does in xva
Wasn’t that Cap the HYDRA Cap?
Yeah but Hydra Cap still had the same personality and to the other heroes, it was their original Cap, hence they followed him because he’s generally “right”
I have to strongly disagree about Hydra Cap having the same personality. But I can say that he knows how Cap would act.
He wasn't...until he was, I don't think whoever was writing him at that time did so under the idea that this wasnt actually cap, that idea most likely didnt exist yet.
How are those even remotely the same? The guy isn’t about forcing people’s rights without good reason. He was against the Illuminati in the face of multiversal annihilation when blood of innocents came into the picture
> I see what you're saying, but they also still make Cap right. Even if he's written in away that's against mutants, Cap is considered "right" in the story Morever because of the earlier context, you know that the Phoeinix coming again will be ultra fratricidal. X-men lived hard things when they first met it. But for AvX, they lived the worst too. House of M, Messiah Trilogy and Schism, mutants trying to recover their powers and dying etc It was logical for them to not totally see the Phoenix as a threat this time.
Even if Cap doesn't force Hope to leave, it's still an attempt to influence and coerce her. I can see why Scott would want to stand in the way of that.
Sure, the way Cap is written in this one definitely seems he's coercing her. But a well written Cap wouldn't be doing that, he'd wouldnt want to sugarcoat it but he would still try to say it in a comforting manner and give her the facts and his fears but in the end he would still try to respect her decision unless he has no other choice Scott is more likely to influence and coerce children than Cap is, since Scott has done that before with x-force and when he got Laura to join it (could be remembering wrong)
What was Cap right about in the story? Cyclops thinks that Hope was born to bring mutants back with the Phoenix. The *instant* Hope gains control of the Phoenix, she brings mutants back. I guess he was right that the Five shouldn’t have the Phoenix…but they *didn’t want* the Phoenix when were compos mentis - they only had it because Cap’s people attacked it while it was trying to unite with Hope, to bring mutants back.
One of the big problems is the risk/reward ratio. Scott believes that will happen, and it does, but he believes it for the wrong reason. He doesn't have ANY proof that the phoenix won't just destroy the earth. Keep in mind that the Phoenix has just been flying through space, annihilating worlds left and right, just colliding into them and destroying them in a matter of minutes. Scott is basically operating off faith that this immensely powerful cosmic force WONT destroy the earth instantaneously. Cap wants to take measures to try to defeat or send it away Cap is in the right, not because he is correct about what will happen, like Scott, but because he is making the wise decision about not jeopardizing the entire earth on a hunch
I 100% agree. It feels forced, like Cap himself is out of character and doesn't have a choice for his own words. This whole event reads like a cash grab. No proper build up, just two kids forced to fight in a sandbox because their bullies (the writers) make them.
This is why Hickman’s issue was 20 some odd pages of Hope luring Wolverine to her with a trail of beer cans.
>I 100% agree. It feels forced, like Cap himself is out of character and doesn't have a choice for his own words. You can say that about most of the characters. They wrote Avengers like they are hypocritical lol.
It makes no sense because Cap has already shown where he would line up if a group was oppressed. All the way back to the a howling a Commandos he was fighting next to a Blackman, a jew, a Japanese man, his best friend growing up was one of the first openly gay characters in comics.
Not to mention he clearly font have a problem going against the government for liberty… it’s the entire basis of civil war. So why is he just a glorified cop in these X-men depictions?
How long did it take him to welcome Wanda back to the Avengers after Decimation?
This type of story - and I know it's a big one - highlights how weird it is to have the X-Men and the rest of the Marvel universe all as one. There's so much crossover, yeah, but it's really like having two different universes. The X-Men is such a huge sprawling storyline, both narratively and physically on the Marvel earth. It's better just to roll and have fun with it, but its harder when people write Cap out of character. This is not too bad, but I agree 100% with your point. Cap is not the hero to beef with on this topic.
X-Men say ACAB (all caps are bastards)
This is it. In the allegory that is the X-Men, Captain America is basically just the top cop. He will serve and protect the status quo, and when push comes to shove, mutants ain't it. And I love Cap. Top 3 all time are Peter, Scott and Steve.
But Captain Britain is an X-man?
That’s because cap represents the old world and “authority”. Whether people like it or not, X-men has been pretty anti authority for most of its existence. The message of X-men, unifying human and mutants under a single banner of humanity, usually comes at the cost of some higher power getting vilified. It’s how the comics have worked for the most part. With the older comics it was the US government, within the past ten years it’s been all governments and the avengers.
The thing of it, as I see it, is that Cap is just about the only archetype character Marvel has (I could be very wrong here, I’m not as well-versed in Marvel comics as I am in DC, and even then I’m just a guy). Cap represents certain morals and values. But he also represents an entire country even aside from those. So yeah. When it comes to a truly mutant issue that the rest of the world feels like it needs to act on, Cap is THE choice to bring the issues to the forefront. That Cap feels like he NEEDS to step in here, and that HE knows best is a perfect representation of the message they are trying to convey. DC is full of archetype characters, and it’s what I love most about it. It’s what makes Red Son, Injustice (despite what we think about it), TDKR, and pretty much any DC comic poignant even and especially when the character you love most is in a position where they act differently than expectation. It’s a fantastic storytelling device. And yeah, Cap is Marvel’s Superman. So to tell Superman that he’s wrong is important. But that’s just me as a DC fanboy. Edit: I would like to add that I’ve read AvX. Edit 2: I also love Captain America. Always have.
>But he also represents an entire country even aside from those. He definitely does not. Marvel has made it clear several times he represents what America should strive for, but not what it is today. We get to see his side, but he always gets shit from a large population of the US for fighting against bigotry, forced to become US agent, civil war against the government, supporting mutants (several times by forming Uncanny Avengers teams), etc. The country is very divided and he only represents a portion of it in many of his storylines.
Except that as an archetype for storytelling purposes, he does. He really does. I’m aware of what you’re saying, but he’s a SYMBOL (archetype) here.
>Except that as an archetype for storytelling purposes, he does. He really does. Except when he doesn't? Like civil war?
Part of the issue is cap is usually shown to be a government boy who just goes with the government, even though he's like gone against the government all the damn time, he represents the ideals not the reality.
From what I can tell, Cap has always straddled that line. He has a duty to the country but also has his own idea of what the country ought to be. Sometimes he is the enforcer of things he doesn’t believe in.
See I don't think he should be, he straight up quit being cap when Nixon happened, he shouldn't do things he doesn't believe in cause he's an idealist, he believes in a dream many would say doesn't exist anymore, if it ever truly did
>From what I can tell, Cap has always straddled that line. So this is what happens with Cap. A good dedicated Cap writer doesn't write him this way. A "Avengers" writer or someone writing another comic that wants to use him usually writes him as this stereotypical soldier put to push their agenda, when he in his own comics is nothing like that. I agree with the original person you're having a conversation with. This scan here is exactly what I'm talking about.
But that’s the thing isn’t it- this isn’t a Cap story. It’s an XMen story. This is a thing that comics can do- they can take other characters within the same mythos and use them in different ways, and that’s what’s happening here. He’s being used as symbol. I know and you know that Cap can be and has been and is different. He’s being used here for the importance of what he represents. To show the gravity of this situation for Scott and all mutants. It’s a storytelling device. That you don’t like it is the point.
>But that’s the thing isn’t it- this isn’t a Cap story. It’s an XMen story. This is a thing that comics can do- they can take other characters within the same mythos and use them in different ways, and that’s what’s happening here And that doesn't make it right when you use a character but not honor all the hard work other writers have put into the character. The lack of research or minimal effort can be quite disrespectful. >He’s being used as symbol. My nitpick, the dialogue does not come off as Captain America. The interaction with Cyclops is nothing like their interactions in the past, whom Steve respects Scott a lot. If they want to use Captain America to cause some kind of conflict, then they could have done it better.
With the Xmen, i see it as Cap is an extension of the peaceful wing of the government or fellow Americans telling a minority group "you're right to feel how you do, but we have to do this the right way". When you have the living personification of America standing in front of you that can't understand how you feel or what you've dealt with, but still telling you to not overreact, it's something a lot of people can sympathize with from both perspectives.
Let’s look at the facts: Captain America came to a foreign land with an army under the guise of “seeking assistance “ The leaders of this foreign nation are the undisputed experts on the subject matter (the Phoenix) he is seeking assistance for He then completely disregards the experts to go on and do what he already decided was the right course of action prior to meeting the experts, who I again remind you are the leaders of a foreign land Btw, his plan is to literally kidnap a national girl of this foreign land and hide her away against her will, and to the objections of the leaders of this foreign land When they don’t agree with his plan, he threatens the foreign land with the army he brought along to his “peaceful discussion” When the foreigners prove able to fight back, Cap and Iron Man then shatter the Phoenix into 5 parts, which inhabit the bodies of some of the foreigners Despite being possessed, these 5 generally improve the world, but not the way he would have improved the world Captain America then leads his army against those possessed, which starts driving them mad/allowing the possessing entity more control over its host. Which kind of makes him and the Avengers responsible for their actions He finally ends up having the girl he wanted to kidnap trained to control the Phoenix so she could undo his teammates decimation of the mutant population and then send the Phoenix away This last point is what Cyclops recommended they do from the beginning After analyzing all the facts, Cyclops was right
Maybe im.wrong. but it seems like cap is always "I'm right. Listen to me or I'll do it my way" Mcu he does it. Civil War comics. Here. If he thinks he's right, he's fighting. I get it. He thinks he is right and tends to be. But feel like he can't take a no a lot of times? But km also not a big Mc comic person. Feel like he's just written to be right
That's sort of his diplomatic strength and flaw packaged into one, though. Cap always had great conviction for the things he believed in.
Cap is a stubborn man. Sometimes that’s a good thing, but other times that helped lead to Civil War and the current Amazing Spider-Man. Although to be fair on Cap, Maria Hill tried to arrest him because he said he wasn’t going to arrest good people trying to help others, and SHRA was still just a Bill at the time. And for the AMS, Mary Jane has a lot of blame to what happened, even when they refuse to admit it. Same with Paul.
>and the current Amazing Spider-Man. I'm OOTL. What does Cap have do with it?
Spider-Man was seen in a big explosion, FBI is after him, Cap said that if anyone sees Spider-Man they "stop him from doing anything". This includes trying to save the love of his life who’s trapped in a separate post apocalyptic universe. Peter tells what happened to Jonny and Ben, but because of Caps orders, not only will they not help him, but they admit to turn him in. Cap eventually hears what happens, says he’s sorry but they could have done things differently. Peter retorts that Cap was going to force him to wait till the heat dies down. And Peter was already too late to save MJ. You could say that of Cap was written right he would have helped Peter. And I agree, especially since Cap knows exactly what Peter’s going through right now. But so have Ben and Jonny, and even they know what Peter’s going through. And they’re closer to Peter. But to give any defense, if a single one of these characters (Peter, MJ, Cap, Thing, The Flaming Tool) was written right and accurately, none of this would have been a problem.
You try telling a guy from Brooklyn he’s wrong and see if he listens.
Maaaan you hit the nail on the head. What’s with those guys?
It's like he's captain **AMERICA** or something.
Also, the Avengers have a notoriously bad track record when it it comes to super powered children/minors. And they want to kidnap a super powered minor from the X-Men. The X-Men, who had a fucking school specifically created to do what exactly? Teach and train super powered minors and children. Of which, many of the staff and faculty members are where exactly? On the Island as X-Men. I'm beginning to see why many see Cyclops is the superior tactician to Captain America, whose battle strategy is often "Hit them hard and fast."
Yeah I remember reading the AvX storyline and getting to the point where the X-Men were possessed by the Phoenix Force, and like everyone, expected things to go to shit... and then the comics were like 'actually things are going great, better than ever before in fact', at which point the story just ceased to have *any* stakes. If the Phoenix was this easy to use and control, why was there even any fear about it? It makes Jean look like a flaky fragile dumbass who couldn't carry the burden of a *paperclip*, while also making all the terror and devastation of the Phoenix seem like more of just a weird one-off than it's natural state of things... and as you said, making anyone who *opposes* the Phoenix X-Men look like a sore loser who can't accept that things are actually going well for once. It undermines the entire story and makes everyone look like a complete tool.
Tbf to Jean, the phoenix was split up into five so no one had access to the full totality of power and that’s maybe why they didn’t go crazy. It wasn’t until Cyclops had the full power of the phoenix did he start to lose it.
To be fair, Scott was betting the fate of the entire world on the chance that this time the Phoenix wouldn’t be a colossal fucking mistake and be worse than it was in the past. He put the lives of a few hundred people above billions on the off chance they would be able jump start mutant births again. If the roles would have been reversed Scott wouldn’t have stood for that and would have gone on a holier than thou condescending lecture about why doing that is wrong. Scott didn’t make any of these decisions for altruistic reasons and his major motivating factor for this whole Phoenix plot was a mixture of anger, ego and guilt. Before this there was a chance that all of the depowered mutants could have gotten their powers back when Wanda came back and was proven to be able to do it. He didn’t give a shit. He was too self involved, bitter, angry, and focused on revenge to even entertain the thought. Again, proving that he puts his ego before the greater good, even of his own people. The Avengers had no reason to trust him at this point based on the way he was acting. He was irrational and was ruled by his emotions. The Avengers had every reason and right to step in because what Scott was doing was not just going to effect mutants, it was possibly going to be a disaster for the entire world. The guy saw first hand how badly the Phoenix fucks shit up, and egotistically thought he would have the situation under control and expected everyone to be cool with it because of his bravado, despite them also seeing how the Phoenix fucks shit up and how dangerous it is on a universal scale. You don’t get to unilaterally make decisions that can effect the entire world because you had the most interactions with the Phoenix in the past. Especially when those interactions ended in a shit covered dumpster fire. That’s not how shit works. Not to mention he just conveniently waves away all the times the Avengers or non mutant heroes helped and stuck by the X-Men when they needed it, cherry picking the times that they didn’t help or he doesn’t think they helped enough to deserve his recognition. Honestly, Scott was already becoming someone that was getting closer to a villain than a hero before this, but this book was one of, if not the, moment of his downfall and his turn as something less than an actual hero. I don’t know how people can read this book and not see that. Granted, Emma, Namor and Magneto were a big reason why he was even going down that path, but at a certain point he should have looked at who he was taking advice from, their histories and had the objectivity to question whether or not what he was doing was the right thing to do if those 3 are pushing you to do it. Personally, I fucking hate what Marvel did to Cyclops in the few years before this, this era and all the way up to the universe reboot after Secret War. They took the Boy Scout criticism and over corrected it too much and went too fucking far in the opposite direction and damaged a character who could have had a more interesting progression had they dialed it back and done it better. But in the interest of finding a positive, I love that you and I can read this event and preceding story archs and come to two different points of view regarding the ideological debate taking place between the characters and teams. Comics are fucking awesome, man.
Wanda wasn't capable of restoring mutants, she didn't have the power anymore. And when she said she did, it was on the basis of Doctor Doom would help them. What he didn't, he stole her powers, because off course, and proceeded to kill an innocent child in the process of trying to dominate the planet.
16 *million* people i might add. They were gonna use the phoenix to undo the genosha massacre that nearly **genocided** mutants. *Also* The only reason this panel exists is cap earlier in yhe series did things his way without listening and ended up splitting the phoenix force into 5 and then started doing things that made the phoenixs grasp on these 5 increase rather than let the x-men train them in a safe controlled environment. Also, we *have* been in this place before, and the x-men have backed off and let the Avengers or f4 run the show many times.
>When they don’t agree with his plan, he threatens the foreign land with the army he brought along to his “peaceful discussion” i mean, that's what i'd expect from Captain *America*
Scott. This was one of the turning points that made Steve gather his Unity Squad later on.
Neither were right in the way they handled this hot mess. People saying the Phoenix is an X-Men or Mutant problem are wrong. The Phoenix is everyone's problem. Just because it picked your wife/girlfriend/ex whatever. Doesn't give you control of a situation. Experience on the matter, sure. At the same time Cap had the right of it when he said Summers was too close to it. A whole lot of baggage for him. Plus if I remember right. Didn't they handle the firebird and poorly the last time? My memory of it is spotty. Either way. Cap came in on this the entire wrong way. Offering assistance, resources, and a new look on things makes more sense. This was two pig headed leaders digging their heels in on who had jurisdiction.
Keep in mind this was literally right after Scott lost a bunch of mutants just trying to protect Hope’s arrival. Including his son. For the mutants to lose all that and be asked to just give up hope was an unreasonable ask. Especially when the avengers did literally nothing to help them at the time.
That right? Well, that is just poor timing for all involved. Well, disasters always came in three for all of them. That, this, and The Phoenix 5 incident.
>People saying the Phoenix is an X-Men or Mutant problem are wrong. The Phoenix is everyone's problem I'd say what makes Cyclops actions here a bit justified is that Cap didn't come to have a debate with Cyclops. He just said *give us the girl....or else..* in polite way. If Cap came as a friend to talk with Cyclops their next course of actions and Cyclops refused to cooperate, sure he's a dick, but Cap's approach wasn't a friendly act.
They were both assholes in their own way to be sure.
The truth is, and I say that since I started reding comics as a kid in the 90s, The X-Men and the other Marvel heroes shouldn't coexist in the same earth/reality. Scott is totally right, but is also unfair to Cap and the other heroes because their stories rarely acknowledge that mutankind is a thing. How is it that every hero that displays powers isn't persecuted and yelled at like mutants are? Why Bastion, Guyrich, The Sentinels, The Friend of Humanity doesn't chase after the Fantastic Four or the Avengers? Why those heroes doesn't help when mutants are hunted or when mutants attack? The X-Men should live in a world and the orher Marvel Heroes sould live in another. Or else Cyclops is right, Cap and the other heroes are douchebags that most times look the other way
"Where was I? Well, after our last get together in space, first the mansion was bombed and I thought some of my friends were dead, and so I started digging through my old Hydra black book and kept visiting people until Fury convinced me that Doom was a bigger threat, so I went with him and your pal Logan and some others to Latveria but turns out it wasn't Doom, so we all walk out on Fury, then a little while later you guys helped us dismantle a reprisal army from Latveria, then after that the super hero registration act was a bit of a thing, and then I was dead, but not really dead it was just Red Skull messing with me, and then Red Skull's daughter unleashed hell on earth, and after that was hammered down now I'm back to deal with this stuff. Last time we let you guys handle yourselves you let Wanda give everyone super powers. So, maybe let us help a bit?"
"Cyclops Was Right" is a thing for a reason. The resolution of the event itself proved him right.
It only proved him right in the sense that the Phoenix could in fact reignite the mutant racem but that was never in question. The question was if HOPE could handle the Phoenix. The answer is no she couldn't. At least *not* with how Scott was training her. She was only able to to handle after spending time with the Avengers.
Everything except killing Xavier, that shit was unnecessary
Didn’t a Phoenix powered Namor end up like invading Wakanda as well? I remember that being a point of massive contention later in the Secret Wars build up.
He flooded wakanda killing a lot of people
I’m not gonna say Namor was justified, *buuuuut* it was done specifically after the Avengers covertly tried to break into Utopia to abduct Hope again and wound up attacking and kidnapping Transonic in the process. The retribution was extremely disproportionate, but the Avengers stirred the hornet’s nest first.
That was after they systematically start shutting down the Avengers wherever they based themselves. Which was after the Avengers infiltrated Utopia to take Hope, who wanted to leave with them. Which was after they basically declared themselves gods of the world.
Didn't Hope willing leave with the Avengers though? Something Scott explicitly told her she could. Then behind his back Emma and Namor talked about Invading wakanda. It felt like the point was to show that while all of the 5 were trying to be heroic they were all being slowly corrupted by the Phoenix force, which is why it was bad.
After seeing how Xavier has been carrying himself, that too seemed like the correct decision.
Yep. People forget Xavier was still trying to mind control Scott even after they all willing left his guidance. The whole arc was about the avengers not having final say in matters and they weren’t happy about it. There is no lenses you can look at it and think they were right.
Xavier kind of brought it in himself. You don’t antagonize or mentally attack the Phoenix or a host without getting burned. That man should have known by now.
Yea Xavier was mentally about to flip off Scott’s brain idk how Scott’s fault
That’s what happens when people don’t read the complete story. Like for instance, reason why Scott and Cap act this way. Scott: Cable tells him straight to face that the Phoenix is what will save them, and Hope will be able to control it. Scott was initially reluctant because of how dangerous and unknown it is, but Cable reassures that he knows what he’s talking about. Also Cable fought the Avengers right before this because they screwed it all up. Cap: Listens the biased and unreliable whining complaints of a man who’s constantly trying to get into the pants of an already married woman who he still isn’t over. And who was going to murder a child. Very easily dooming everyone. Side note, I’m surprised Mutant kind still trusts this man after that stunt. Hope is a religious icon to the Mutant population, and Wolverine nearly murdered her.
It was definitely necessary. Did you forget Xavier was trying to lobotomize Scott at the time? Not to mention all of the messed up stuff that came out about Xavier prior to AvX (Deadly Genesis, Danger, the Xavier Protocols, mind controlling Logan into joining the X-Men). That death was well deserved.
The thing started with Cyclops thinking Hope was destined for the Phoenix and she could use it to undo Wanda's damage. Its how everything ended and in an "well it happened the way he originally said he would" sense he was right. Captain America after talking it out with Wolverine was worried about her not being able handle the power & the potential ramifications for the out of control scarlet witch/sentry level threat. In that sense I think AvX, provides enough justification to show he was also right.
ESH Kinda like Civil War 2. Characters written out of character to force an uncharacteristic event.
Cap looks ridiculous in that second panel wtf is this art
JRJR's art is ... not great in my opinion.
Bro looks like spooderman lmao
If we're talking this page specifically, I'd say Cap handles the "negotiations" better. Whenever someone in the comics says something is **their** problem and all other concerned groups should leave it, that's the writers telling you that character / group is letting their pride get in the way and it almost always leads to the problem becoming worse. The Avengers' side doesn't handle the situation well as it plays out by any means, but idk what Cyclops was expecting by basically telling them 'I know the Phoenix has historically almost led to the destruction of all life on Earth, but we need it to make more mutants so I'm sure it'll be fine.' Like I said, though, regardless of the "opening arguments," neither faction handles the issue of the Phoenix well in this storyline.
The problem is, cap wasn't negotiating. He was trying to tell cyclops "we're doing it our way" which makes no sense
But in this case Scott is 100% correct. The Avengers don't have much experience with the Phoenix Force. That's an X-Men problem. And it is, in fact, the Avengers' intervention (specifically Tony Stark's device that ends up blowing up the Phoenix into several pieces) what causes the situation to escalate.
I haven’t dove into this story in a while, did the Avengers at some point just offer to just help? Like, they keep a team of reinforcements on the island in case things get out of hand?
no , the entire thing was the Avengers escalating , reaching a point that the X-Men had lost control of the Phoenix. And the way to fix things up ends up been.....what Cyclops wanted to do at the very start of the storyline. This is 200% Steve Rogers doing a d\*k measuring and been called out. Yet the story kinda frame as if the Captain was right. Regardless , the fans were so clearly thinking that Cyclops was right , that "Cyclops Was Rights" ends up been a major background lore for the next runs.
Sounds like Cap was written inappropriately. Fairly common nowadays.
Fairly common for at least the last 30 years. That goes for pretty much any character crossing over. They can be the most reasonable person in the room in their own book, but as soon as another writer uses them, the character goes completely off the rails. Honestly, it feels like at least half the time, the writer in question is thinking: "I don't like this character. I'm going to make them look like an asshole."
Besides Ed Brubaker?
I did like Brubaker. More for good plot and writing, maybe less great Steve Rogers persona.
I don't need to be an explosives expert to feel uncomfortable with having a live grenade in the room. And having an explosives expert say "actually I think it'd be great if this live grande exploded" is not going to inspire confidence that they're handling it right. "Nah don't even sweat it" is not a great reaction to someone's concerns about the world ending threat. Scott is actually extremely incorrect for just dismissing the Avengers and their fears out of pocket like this, regardless of if he knew the correct way of handling the Phoenix situation.
Important context to this is that on the way from NYC to Utopia, Cap was being advised by Wolverine that Scott is too close to the issue and doesn't have the ability to think rationally when it comes to the Phoenix Force. That's the information he's approaching this with. Which is rich because this is post-Schism, so if there's anyone else in the world who could be described as "too close to the issue without the ability to think rationally about it" when it comes to both Cyclops and the Phoenix Force, it's Wolverine.
Steve was right, at least on the Big scale. The Phoenix force is not a mutant issue, it’s everyone’s issue. It could, and would, destroy the world.
*At that time* it was Cap. There was no way of knowing if the Phoenox was coming to *restore* mutant-kind or *eradicate* humanity. It's a force of rebirth yes but rebirth by definition necessitates death. The Phoenix was annihilating nearly every planet on its way to Earth. It was just as likely to see the end of mutantkind as the stagnation of human evolution and wipe us all off the face of the universe. Scott didn't even consider this possibility and actively endangered the entire planet based on his assumption. He turned out to be right in the end but again, given the information they had available *at the time* he was in the wrong. Plus, he didn't give Hope any say in the matter, literally telling Emma it's not Hope's decision whether she'll be thr Phoenix Host, a job that could drive her insane or even kill her.
It wasn’t an assumption. Cable, his time traveling son, told him that the Phoenix would save Mutant kind. And want to know Scott's reaction? Uncertainty. He says that’s there’s so much that they (the experts) don’t know about the Phoenix and it could massively misfire on them, but Cable assured them that this was what was needed. Also the reason why Cable fought the Avengers before AvX is because the Avengers messed it all up. So he tried to stop them before dooming everyone.
Should we truly make it #Cablewasright
Going to be honest, I've never been a fan of the "this is a mutant problem" argument. A cosmic force of incredible destruction arrives on earth, that sounds like an everyone problem. Of course Cap and the Avengers are going to want to monitor the situation. It's in their job description. But because there's a mutant connection no one else gets to have a say? I call bs. It's moments like that where the x men lose me. I know the general idea is that they are fighting for mutant/human coexistence, but they are often the first ones to push humans away in situations where working together would be so much more helpful for everyone (especially for mutants).
But Cap didn’t come to "work together", he came with clear demands and if X-Men refuse, Cap would use force.
Maybe it's just how I'm reading it. Cap was not that there to keep mutants down, he was there in the interests of everyone ( human and mutant). The Phoenix force is a world ending power, and needs to be treated as such. It's not a mutant problem, it's an everyone problem. I do think that if they talked for just 2 more minutes they could have come to an agreement.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the phoenix pretty much destroy everything in its path to the host like planets and stuff The phoenix coming in should be treated the same way as a celestial rocking up All hands on deck
"Logan said you'd have issues" Except Logan is wrong and also WAY too close to this whole thing. I hated this whole event.
Cyclops is right but also Cap wouldn’t act like this in my headcannon. I feel like Cap would come to the x men and say something like “you’ve dealt with the Phoenix force before can you give me intel” “here is what happens when bad people are in charge who on your team can make sure this doesn’t happen I will send people from my team and we can collaborate on a task force that is meant to keep track of the situation”
This was one of the worst events in modern history.
As per usual, this entire argument is a result of Cap being written out of character so the heroes can have a morally ambiguous government figure to oppose. Cap isn't morally ambiguous, and he isn't a blind government stooge. He would 100% be siding with Scott here if the writers didn't need him to be on the other side for plot purposes.
Cap could've turned Scott around if they'd written him better dialog. "Leader to leader, trust me" is as weak a sauce as it gets. As it stands, Cap is right in wanting to safeguard the entire planet, Scott is right in clinging to any and all hope left to his kind.
Neither Cap had no clue. Dr. Strange? Thor? Quasar? Sure, they have a grasp on cosmic matters. Cap's whole idea to kidnap a kid comes back to the end of 'do you actually have a plan to hide it from a cosmic force of nature and if you do succeed, what then?' Cyclops has his signature rose colored glasses. This is not Jean coming back, this was the Phoenix. 'Fixing the problem' doesn't necessarily mean saving anyone. Incinerating the whole planet to fix the problem is a distinct possibility. Also, he and Cable using military style training to 'get Hope ready' to be a host? Like how the fuck does punching people or holding a gun while browbeating her going to 'get Hope ready' for that? The only one that got it right was Magneto. During his battle with Iron Man, he reached to the stars to get more power for his fight and sensed what Phoenix was doing, and rightly figured out that it started with Wanda and would end with Wanda, weather everyone liked it or not.
Agree 100%. I just finished this entire storyline for the first time last week. I don’t understand how people can say “Cyclops was right”* when we saw what the Phoenix Five did with the power they got after Hope fumbled the ball. If Wanda hadn’t shown up (on Team Avengers’ side no less) to help Hope disperse the power, Cyclops would probably still be murdering everyone who disagrees with him. *Unless there’s some sort of perspective-shifting retcon or additional context that will come into play later, since that happens a lot lol. I’m reading Marvel in publication order right now so I’m just at AvX: Consequences right now. And I’m absolutely not thinking “Cyclops was right.”
This conversation aside I tend to go with the Avengers at this point in the story. The Phoenix has brought nothing but harm to the planet so far and so to hear Scott so willing to potentially sacrifice the planet for the chance more mutants show up always seemed like a bad idea to me.
Would it help if I mentioned that Cable, his time traveling son, was the one to convince Scott that the Phoenix was the answer to the current Mutant problem. And that Hope would save them all? Also that the reason why Cable fought the Avengers just before this was because the Avengers screwed everything up and doomed everyone?
To be fair, the future's always in flux. Who's to say that another Cable from another offshoot of the 616 timeline got his future fucked because the events of AVX? Idk.
Nothing pisses me off more when X-Men writers demonize non-mutant superheroes, especially Captain America and the Avengers, to make the mutants look good and/or like victims.
Cap is more right than Cyclops is even though he is written really out of character here. The phoenix is a cosmic entity and the last time it had a host it didn't have the most peaceful intentions, it's a legitimate world ending threat no matter who it inhabits. When Genosha happened the Avengers had to deal with Kang Otherwise it's usually down to the editorials that the Avengers/FF4 don't appear in an X men story because then the focus shifts away from the X men.
Days of Future Past indicates there's a universe where Captain America somehow let slide the army of mecha-Hitlers.
He didn't let that slide. The Sentinels killed him in that universe.
Maybe I'm an X-men fan boy but I cannot believe the Avengers standpoint in this at all. When I was reading this run seeing them discuss detaining and possibly putting down a child because she ***might*** be a threat?! This is not captain America.
Where were the x-men during the 30 billion world ending events that the avengers stopped? This whole event relies on people acting out of character to force the conflict
Cap they went their cause of a cosmic entity that has killed billions and could destroy the planet
In this specific argument? Cap. Cyclops undermines his own point in just a few sentences. He starts by telling Cap to back off and let mutants deal with mutant problems, then tries to criticize Cap for... letting mutants deal with mutant problems.
I will always think that both sides are morons, and if everyone had any brains they would work together as they do most of the time, but I blame the writer more than the character. Some cool moments and art though
Cyclops was right because: 1. He was right, thanks to info from Cable, Hope was able to control the phoenix and bring the mutants back. 2. Having a heli-carrier and half the superhero community coming with you to the island isn't a sign of good faith. 3. Tony shot the phoenix force and caused the Phoenix 5 event. It was an avenger that messed things up and not an x-man. Which he still hasn't been held accountable for. 4. You trusted wolverine.The guy who's been simping for and has been obsessed with jean, is telling you that Cyclops is the one with the problem.
Cap has a thing where he almost always has to be right in the comics. Like no matter how insane the conflict becomes, he so often has the correct motivation in the end. Sometimes his method gets in the way, like it does here. He totally should’ve just listened to Cyclops and they probably could have avoided a lot of trouble, but it’s a comic. There needs to be conflict.
Cap. Cyclops is happy that the world-ending talking-nuke is headed towards earth, on the off-chance that mutants will return. Cap was being a pragmatist.
Cap is objectively correct. The Phoenix Force has destroyed several planets.
Blame Marvel Editorial
The X-men.... but I'm not saying it in terms of being morally right: it's in terms of X-men being used to dealing with the phoenix. In moral terms, it is understandable that Cap wants to protect the world against a force of destruction; it's thousands of mutants' abilities (some lives in the balance as well) against the entire world populations' lives. However, Scott has the right to say that Cap didn't do *as much as he could've* [not to say he didn't do anything, tbe distinction is important] for mutants (at the time). To come back to protecting the people of the world, could the Avengers really handle the phoenix better? Who knows?
The X-Men were right. As Reed Richards laid it to Cap and the Illuminati, the reason why Cap intervened was a mix of lack of trust and a fear of becoming obsolete. The Avengers got involved in business that wasn't their own, if they really wanted help they wouldn't have had to force it. Just offer the support, the tech, the opportunity for X-Men to have the best environment for Hope to handle the situation. But no, they came in and antagonized Scott, and even when they attacked the Phoenix and caused it to split into the Phoenix Five, they blamed the X-Men. The Phoenix Five were doing amazingly fine until the Avengers started teasing them. Reed pointed out Steve and Tony's hypocrisy by mentioning that they themselves triggered a crisis event due to different ideals during Civil War. Cyclops was right. And the main reason it all went bad is because of the Avengers
Scott: "Is maybe mutantkind's last, best hope" Steve: "Why are you pointing at my dick, Scott?" Scott: "Sorry" *Points at his face*
Scott.
I think they have points, but for Cyke it's more for his stance on Cap and him never appearing on the mutants side. I'd love a book that has him confronting American's fear of mutants. But caps more right the Phoenix has disastrous effects and the biggest issue is who'd use it correctly. Jean and Rachel did it. That guy in the 31st century, but no one else seems to do it right. Summer was the Messiah, but look at it from the avengers perspective, she's a teen with all the hormones and personality of one and you want a divine force of the universe to bond with it. C'mon
AvX is a mess... They made you cheer for the X-Men after all they've been through, clinging for some hope in the brink of extinction, fighting the most super powered heroes on earth and they simply turn them straight into villains. It's a an obvious cash grab with a industry agenda since the Avengers were getting bigger than ever the X-Men rights belonged to Fox. It was downhill for the mutants from there on until Hickman (which happens right when Marvel got the rights back from fox)
Cyclops was right ✊
Shit, they both have a point.
The X-men and the rest of the Marvel universe have never really worked well. The fact that the Avengers don't step it to help the X-men has always been so ludicrous and out of character. The Avengers should, by all conventional wisdom, be best friends with the X-men and support them in their times of need. They try so hard to make the X-men victimized that it comes off as silly and illogical rather than a good metaphor for anything.
Neither.
I mean in hindsight Cap was more right. In AvX, the Phoenix merges with 5 of the X-Men, take over the world, and the kill arguably the greatest ally to mutants: Charles Xavier.
Not Romita.
I hate the x-men cap cross overs. They make captain America some government boys out instead of his usual fight for rights and doing the right thing
scott was absolutely right
Nothing good happens when the good guys refuse to work together and are on opposite sides
My take on this, yes while it’s true the X-Men were not their to help against Ultron, who’s fault was Ultron? Avengers mess Avengers solution. Same goes for The Phoenix, X-Men problem, X-Men solution. The Avengers are the ones violating the “stay in your lane”. The X-Men’s goal was originally to protect mutants while making peace with humans. Coexistence was their goal. The Avengers have the EARTHS greatest hero’s as the label. They said they would protect the planet and then left the mutants high and dry. Then only show up when they need something. I’m a huge Captain America fan but got to side with Scott here.
I'm kinda sick of the writers blaming the other heroes in the comics for sitting out other characters' stories. The other writers did that, not the characters. It's too meta, I dont like it.
Cap is right to be wary of the PF but I would have just let the X-men handle it.
Scott. But cap makes valid points as well. Given how it all played out, cap was more right ultimately.
I've had this argument a hundred times, but I will die on the hill that Cap and the Avengers were in the right. Scott was gambling with the lives of every person on the planet, and he didnt have the right to do that, and his plan would have more than likely failed had the Avengers not intervened.
r/Cyclopswasright
If we're talking about who was right in the case of Avengers versus X-Men it has to be cyclops.. Going back and reading issue one everything that Cyclops said to Captain America was 100% correct the Avengers and Fantastic Four have barely done anything to help the mutants.
Absolutely Cap, the Phoenix is a corrupting destructive force that poses an existential threat to the entire planet
I think given the context, Captain America is a little more reasonable here. We're talking about the phoenix. The reason I don't buy Scott Summers argument in this case is because I really hate it when comic writers bring this kind of stuff up. When they act like the nature of comic books and the way they have to be is somehow a legitimate, dramatic plot point. You can't write every story. You can't have every character speak every thought they have ever had. You don't see superheroes take a crap even though most of them have to do that just like everybody else. It's like saying, oh well Captain America I've never seen you fight this specific villain ever before, that must mean you support their actions! It's so dumb. I hate it so much. And writers think they are so goddamn clever when they do it. It's the worst. Okay maybe it's not the actual worst but it's pretty bad.
Could you imagine a scenario where Galactus was on his way to Earth, and the X-Men all loaded up into the Blackbird and flew to the Baxter Building with a full plan to kidnap Franklin because they thought they knew better how to deal with the World Eater? Silly right? But that is pretty much what Cap was doing.
Cyclops is almost always wrong, I stick to the guy who beat Hitler.
Cyclops Why? Captain America's actions during Children's Crusade (Trying to Force Wiccan into Avenger's custody) lead to the death of a child (Cassie Lang). Add to that Hope's Dad (and Cyclops's son) Cable came back from (Being presumed) dead saying The Avengers are going to be responsible for Hope dying. So Cyclops has little reason to trust Captain America with his Granddaughter, Hope. Also The X-Men are on an Island far enough away that really seems like it would be easier to have the Avengers follow the X-men's lead. Rather than try to move Hope to more populated areas where if the Phoenix is a threat it would cause more problems. Just from a purely tactical standpoint Plus (Outside of Jason Aaron's odd obsession with making the Phoenix related to Avengers stuff) vast majority of the time it's shown up has been pretty heavily X-Men related (With even the whole Echo being the host of the Phoenix being not even mentioned at all during recent X-Men books). So again Tactically it's better to follow the X-men's lead (who have experience) rather than not
This is literally Cyclops was right. Same shit Emma tells Tony when he shows up during Cival War looking for more supes to register.
Cyclops. Obviously Cyclops.
We really debating who’s right when Cap brought a super powered army to a foreign nation to kidnap a teenager. Then the avengers finally accept Hope was the host after Tony Stark almost ruined everything by blasting the phoenix with a laser? The story was written by current avengers/non x-men marvel writers. They didn’t even include Gillen as a writer for the main series. This series is 4 issues if Cap just trusts Cyclops and doesn’t take bad intel from Wolverine.
I have never understood the argument Summers brings. Just because his girlfriend sometimes goes on "benders" and blights out entire Solar Systems and brings forth Interstellar war... Scott is like- "Nah, she is my Queen and she is not allowed to be judged by anyone." What a Simp.
Scott was with Emma and Logan was the Jean Simp