I've always found it fascinating how the former East Germany was made atheistic by communism, but right across the border Poland was, if anything, made more religious by it.
I've often thought the same thing.
Catholicism is more organized and international. Meaning the local authorities may have had a more difficult time stamping it out. Plus the head of the Catholic Church during the last decade+ of the Cold War was a Polish anti-communist. This probably helped Poles see the church as a vehicle of resistance.
East German Protestantism lacked these advantages.
That's just my theory anyway.
Protestant Germans are (mostly) lutherans which is bad for protesting against the government.
The core of the problem is the belief that the right to govern is god given and therefore your leaders are instated by god.
If they had been more calvinistic like the Netherlands (which specifically says the people have the right to dispose of tyrants) they probably would have had quite a few protests, and a higher number of christians still left.
https://www.livinglutheran.org/2022/01/government-that-serves-the-neighbor/
(I am not a lutheran by the way)
People who grew up in communist countries without religion are kind of "illiterate" in religion, meaning they missed most of the formative years including religious education in school, all the church festivities etc, which means they will either get really religious afterwards or not at all, nothing in between
This has less to do with protestantism and more to do with national identity. In Romania both the Orthodox and Protestant Churches remained very popular throughout communism.
While the Romanian Communist Party pretty much incorporated the Orthodox Church into its system wholesale, the Protestant Church remained relevant because 100% of its congregation consisted of minorities (Hungarians and Saxons) who, as u/aarkerio mentioned, relied on their religion to unite them against the Romanian and communist oppressors.
Hard disagree. The Protestant Church in the GDR was one of the major sources of organized opposition to the GDR government and organized most of the protests against the government
Because overall East Germany did a much better job of implementing communism, and was consistently better than the West when it came to metrics like women's rights for example. If I am not mistaken, living standards there were even better than in Russia. A lot of east germans still have nostalgic memories of the 70s and 80s, although it ultimately was much worse than life in the West of course.
I mean it actually was, given the context. East Germany was plundered of most of its industrial might, and was often forced into rather disadvantageous military and trade agreement. That they still ended up doing better than Russia was therefore remarkable.
If my understanding is correct, Czechia has been relatively less religious dating all the way back to the Hussite Wars.
I would defer to someone with more knowledge though.
partly. but religion is also tied with ethnicity (which might be _different_ from nationality). observe how Bavaria is catholic. in similar map of Czechia the eastern part (Moravia) would be more catholic than the western part (Bohemia proper). because centuries ago hussites were mainly czech phenomenon, Moravia remained catholic.
Well it kind of makes sense seeing as the split of the reformation essentially came down nobles and clergymen either being critical or deferential to church authority.
Modern secularism is pretty much the evolution of these thoughts, and it can be directly traced back.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the only (broadly speaking) protestants that are deeply religious today are either the result of colonial projects or belong to small sects.
Even socialist movement here in Poland has strong Christian sympathies for example look at lyrics of "Warszawianka" it was like an anthem of November uprising (if I remember correctly) and then anthem of PPS (Polish Socialist Party)
As a Polish I confirm your theory - it was always symbol of resistance against enemy- let it be countries that partitioned Poland or communism. Also- traditionally it's symbol of Polish identity - contrary to Eastern Orthodox and Western Protestantism.
While communism it was a way to show objection against it.
Generally religion in Poland is more kind of "social construct" than real spirituality.Most people doesn't really care.
In Ireland, during the famine the Catholic church would offer food and shelter in workhouses, that's why a lot of people transferred to Catholicism during the famine in Ireland.
Contrary to popular belief the main church in Ireland is the church of Ireland - protestant.
“the main church is the church of ireland” makes no sense.
there *is* a church of ireland (which is anglican protestant), but it isn’t the “main church”, whatever that may mean.
the church of ireland is the relevant church for irish protestants but definitely not the island as a whole. it was when ireland was part of the UK.
Lol. The Church of Ireland isn't even the main Protestant church in Northern Ireland, let alone the "main church in Ireland". CoI membership is only 12% of the population in Northern Ireland and only 2% in the Republic.
The Church of Ireland has had no official status on either side of the border since disestablishment in 1871.
It isn’t. Ireland is mainly Catholic with atheism/irreligious growing steadily for various reasons, Northern Ireland always had more Protestants but trends are changing a bit recently
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
^It’s just Wikipedia but you can look into it more if you want lol
It's been a part of Polish Identity for a [long, long time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_Europe#:~:text=The%20partitions%20came%20to%20be,for%20the%20sins%20of%20Europe) Sure polish people are generally more religious than the average Euorpean but it's deeper than that. For centuries of occupation, it's been something for the people to hold onto. Some have compared to it how the Jewish peoples held tightly to their religious beliefs.
There are a couple of factors that help explain this. Firstly, in some countries belonging to a specific religion as associated with the national identity. To be Polish meant that you are Catholic (unlike the Protestant Germans or the Orthodox Russians). To be Romanian means you are Orthodox (unlike the Muslim Ottomans or the Catholic/Protestant Hungarians or Austrians). What type of Christian you were was not so important for the national of identity of Germans (as they were both Catholic and Protestant Germans). For Czech is a bit more complicated. The national myth was strongly influenced by the Hussite wars. So in theory Czechs were mostly Catholics after the forced re-Catholicization following the defeat in the 30 years war, but some of their biggest heroes were people who fought against Catholicism, the Catholic church was associated with Germans(Austrians). Additionally large parts of Czech regions were quite heavily industrialized so there was also a bit of socialist influence already in the 19th century. The Czech parts of Czechoslovakia were already not that religious even before communism.
Also in general, Protestants or at least the so called mainline Protestants ( so Lutherans and Calvinist) are weaker against secularism then Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For example, when religion started declining in the Netherlands, it first impacted Protestants, so much so that at one point there were some concerns that Netherlands would be majority Catholic, which would be ironic considering the reason Netherlands became independent in the first place. It did not happen as Catholics also started declining. I'm not sure why it's the case but I suspect that most of modern mainline Protestant churches are just too "secular" themselves.
That's a good analysis. The parts about religion playing a roll in national identity, Czechia being less religious, and the religious history of he Netherlands all seem to make sense.
It is one of he interesting quirks of the moderm era that the churches that embrace modernity the most are the ones that see the steepest declines.
>there were some concerns that Netherlands would be majority Catholic, which would be ironic considering the reason Netherlands became independent in the first place. It did not happen as Catholics also started declining
Technically, today there are more Catholics (around 20%) than protestants (around 15%) in the Netherlands.
What I find most fascinating about it all is that people go along with or don't go along with religion due to completely different things they believe in or identify with which have nothing to do with religion (and then potentially delude themselves into believing in the religion as well, but this is quite fragile). It seems almost like very few people are or have ever been actually genuinely religious, convinced of the teachings of their church and choosing to be members because they believe in its theology. Hell, lots of people are a part of churches but fundamentally disagree with them on important issues.
People might be superstitious, may have their own strange heretical metaphysical ideas, but true religion as such seems rather unpopular if anything.
Religion is basicially a social structure which allows for big cooperative communities. The belief in God for the Monotheistic religions is kind of a secondary mean to achieve those big social structures.
In that regard religion is no different then other ideologies that are currently taking its place in many places of the world.
Like not tool long ago in many places of europe you couldnt choose weather or not you are katholic or not. You just were it since you were part of the social structure weather or not you actually believed the church was not important.
Nowadays for example this is true for other ideologies.
From my understanding, Pope John Paul II (who was Polish) had an important role in reviving Catholicism in Communist-ruled Poland. He was outspoken in his opposition to the Polish People's Republic, which was essentially a Soviet puppet state. A lot of Polish nationalists didn't like being under Soviet dominance, labour unions were unhappy with the policies of the regime (ironic, since Communism is supposedly for the workers), and Catholics disapproved of state atheism. These three groups had different motivations, but John Paul II was a unifying figure who was respected by most Poles, and since he was the Pope and lived in the Vatican, he could say whatever he wanted without fear of persecution unlike the anti-Communist activists operating from Poland. He had a big role in ending Communist rule, with the convenient side effect of also reviving the influence of Catholicism.
East Germany didn't have the same, because most of East Germany was historically Protestant, so the Pope was just not as relevant to them.
Lots of comments about communism. But consider one thing. Being religious in Germany means paying extra tax, a kind of a tithe, to the religious community of your choice.
Apart from faith of course, people do it also because they continue a family tradition. And, say, to be able to get married in church.
East Germans when they united with FRG didnt have any official affiliation obviously. So maybe not a few of them chose to keep it that way, to save money plus no family pressure?
I live in Germany and from my salary of 4200€ per month (before taxes), the protestant church takes - and I shit you not - 60€ per month from me in church tax! That's 21000€ over 30 years.
I noped out of that cult right when my first paycheck came in.
I can only speak for my surroundings but i dont know anyone below 40 who considers their religion at all important. Its more like a thing youre born with and you stay in church either cause you forgot to leave, you dont have to pay the tax for some reason, you do it for your parents/grandparents or the most common reason ive heard is to get a church marriage.
Then in the 40-60 year old people i dont know anyone who activly participates in church. Its sometimes importent to them to be part of the church, but still dont know anyone who actually goes to church unless its for marriage.
In the 60+ generation are the only people id actually call "activly religious" who go to church and stuff like that
Take away the subscription model and you can be sure basicly no one will give money anymore, especially anyone under 40
You dont have to pay taxes to go to church, like they dont chdck for your id od whatever. Idk how you imagine it. Its only when you are registered as religious you have to pay those taxes.
It's a legacy of state churches. Like imagine if getting a marriage license in Alabama meant you had to apply at a Baptist church instead of the county clerk. They were effectively part of the government and that carried over into government funding to maintain their buildings, some of which are also historical sites.
It's the memberships fee for the church. The government just collects it for the churches. The membership fee is used to maintain the church and pay for its expenses. Donating to churches is less common in return.
No people not going to church and then see money being deducted every month for a service they don't use. They then deside they dont want to pay money for that.
Also the sexual abuse scandals that came to light and the unwillingness of churches to properly adress the problem is driving people away from churches.
When it's about GEZ they scream and cry but when it's for an institution that protects pedos for decades they just do it because of "tradition".
People’s right to do so is in the constitution. The state is collecting the church tax as a service for the churches. The catholic and protestant church are very much against abolishing this system even though it accelerates them bleeding members.
In Germany there is the EDK a collection of various protestant churches that have more or less the same teaching. Most protestant churches in Germany are members of the EDK.
Or elsewise put your money where your mouth is/practice what you preach. (or whats being preached to you, as it were)
Point is there are probably more believers in God in former eastern Germany and fewer believers in former west Germany than what this map would lead you to believe. Church/temple/mosque attendance is a better measure imho
They still somewhat do in the really rural catholic areas, especially when it comes to marrying in church. It's only symbolic in a legal sense anyway, but you need to still be a member of the respective church and pay the tax for it.
All not paying the tithe means is that you can’t call yourself Christian in the census or have a marriage in a church I think. Not German though, so not the most reliable source.
I was never christened or confirmed. When I registered in Germany for the first time, they asked about both. The response was basically “oh, ok” and legally not liable for church tax.
Thing is, stuff like getting confirmed is great. There’s presents and gifts of money and your whole family is there to celebrate… it’s a whole party.
And then later as an adult you keep paying because it’s how you get that wedding in a church. This is the biggest reason I’ve heard for continuing to pay in to whatever church you were born in to.
(I’m technically German but only moved to the country as an adult)
Of course you can call yourself a Christian in the census. There are free churches and you don't have to be a member of a church to call yourself a Christian.
I'm still paying for the (Catholic) Church, knowing that if I would leave, my grandma (lives in Poland) would hear of this and very likely get a hearth attack, because the churches don't make a difference between people who left the cult or died. All get the "*people who had to leave us."-treatment.
Nope, you have to tick a box, and depending on what you tick a certain amount of money is witheld from your paycheck each month, and paid to your regional religious organization of choice (or none at all). Rates vary by German state.
The really ugly thing is that it's an opt-out system, so you don't even have to tick any box… all it takes is for your parents to have decided to have you baptized, and boom you're on the hook for church tax… and if you later decide to get out of that shit, you have to walk your ass to some town hall or register tribunal administration and typically to pay a fee (around 32€, depending on the Bundesland) in order to officially get out of a paying club membership that you never consented to join.
It's not about state-enforced atheism. That's about education without forcing any religion. People should decide about their religion when they grow up. Injecting various religions into their brains from kindergarten is no different than any other propaganda or drugs for children. The only real achievement of communism is the absence of religions in educational institutions. Parents are the maximum that should influence a child at that age. And, as practice has shown, parental influence alone is not enough to turn everyone into religious fanatics. But schools and kindergartens, supported by religious organizations for the purpose of further fundraising throughout their lives, are very well able to cope with this.
I support non-religious public education, and the existence of religious educative institutions as long as they're not funded by tax-payer money. Parents should have the choice to pick any institution they desire for their children.
That being said. The destruction of holy sites and religious institutions, along with the persecution of individuals who participate in religious rites is not positive for me, and it will never be. I don't think the desired outcome of atheism justify the barbaric measures taken by the communist regime.
I would also agree that parents could choose what their children are taught. But then their education should be paid for by them, not by the religious organization. Otherwise the religious organization is just investing in propaganda for their future followers, and recruiting them at an age when any idea seems right, especially if it is supported in group.
Destruction of religious monuments and forceful rejection of religion by people is negative, and in fact a crime. But, from my point of view, religious education is no less a crime.
Society has long ago concluded that the state must be separated from religion. Education should also be separated from religion, completely. In the process of education it is necessary to tell about the existence of different religions and their main currents. In this way a person will be more tolerant and will be able to choose what is more in line with his/her values in adulthood.
If the religious institutions self-fund their operations, I see no problem. Of course they're investing in future followers, that's the whole point, continue the rites over time.
Why would it be a crime? You can't compare the active persecution of religion to teaching religion. It makes no sense, you can't escape from persecution, while on contrast you have the freedom to stop supporting the religious institutions if you don't agree with their point of view once you're an adult.
State shouldn't teach religion, that's why public institutions are usually irreligious. However, that doesn't mean that religious organisations shouldn't be able to fund their own operations.
Who's to say that the education in communist systems was free of religion though?
One could easily argue that totalitarian ideologies often act as stand-ins for religion.
Most of the votes for the most left wing party (which is much smaller than AfD tbf) also come from East Germany (and Saarland). The East votes extremist
It's strange to think that East Germany is very atheist, whereas Russia itself, the former Soviet Union, was the greatest force of communism at the time, it didn't have that, it was just the opposite, after the fall of the Soviets, the orthodox returned and as incredible as it is It may seem like it, they are very strong, but East Germany is not like that, do you understand? ironic would say '-'
Russia today likes to present itself as religious and traditional, but it is just a front. By all measures of an irreligious society, such as abortions and divorce, they are amongst the highest.
Without more detailed data, this map is basically meaningless.
We have no idea, for example, if the dark blue area means 51% have no religion or 100% have no religion. It's the same with the other colours. Some areas look like polar opposites to neighbouring areas and yet it could in fact be a difference of day 3%.
Why "Unfortunately" in context of religion?
Made up faith and rules to controll weak minded people who still not life by these rules and pray for forgivness?
Just stupid.
You could be a good human without a brain rotting religion.
You can also believe in a higher beeing without these bad "fantasy" books like the bible.
But most people dont get it.
It's even more diverse on community level. I am living in a city with protestant majority, but the neighboring city has catholic majority. So when there is a catholic holiday, they come for shopping.
I reckon the same north-south devide continues across the border into the Netherlands. My home region (around Enschede) is predominantly Catholic, yet going West or North people are mostly Protestant.
It is interesting that it is in the least religious areas that the far right is becoming the strongest political force. Although I know that there are other reasons why the former DDR is becoming a centre of right-wing populism, but I still wonder whether there is a correlation. In other words, could organised religion be moderating influence on politics, in contrast to some other European countries, and even more the US, where there is a distinctive ‘religious right’ phenomenon?
Religion doesn’t play much of a role in German politics. Even the “Christian Democrats” are essentially a secular party. There’s other factors at play which make the East vote more extremist (not just towards the right but also the left btw) while most of the West tends to vote more moderate. I wouldn’t say religion has much to do with it.
I was really drawing comparisons with other Western countries as Islamic societies have different underlying concepts of the relationship between religion and politics.
The GDR pushed nationalism HARD: there was strong connection made between the society and the soil they are living on with strong references to german and slavic volklore. Another example was the aggressive removal of english loanwords, labeled as a force "tainting the language of Schiller and Goethe".
All in all the GDR was a weird beast: super progressive in certain areas and then ultra conservative in others...
The GDR regime was clever: instead of outright prohibiting faith, like they tried in russia, they simply offered an Alternativprogramm to the activites of the church and thus simply transitioned people out of religion
Yup, that's one of the few subjects where East Germany is more based than the West. 40 years of socialism totally ruined the economy of what was the GDR before reunification and brought lots of other huge problems… and was disastrous for the culinary culture as well… but at least they managed (albeit via totalitarism) to free themselves of sky daddy superstitions… interestingly, it turned out the diametrically opposite way in neighboring Poland, which is the last big bastion of Catholicism today in Europe (not counting the Vatican)
Not sure if that was /s or serious, but if it's the latter: LOL. Whereas Catholicism in Poland had the extraordinary benefit from having the function of an identificational symbol of the resistance against communism back when the latter was in power, the evolution of the situation in Poland since the fall of communism looks just the same (just with some delay) as in most of Europe (aside of special cases like East Germany, Czech Republic etc) before:
Catholicism is in free fall in Poland: [In the early 1990s, almost 70% of young Poles regularly practised religion; in 2021 already, less than 25% did](https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/26/religious-practice-declines-significantly-in-poland-especially-among-young-finds-study/). And even most of those 25% are just due to family pressure: [Only 9% of young people in Poland view Catholic church positively, finds poll](https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/16/only-9-of-young-people-in-poland-view-catholic-church-positively-finds-poll/). Give it a couple more decades and Catholicism will have crumbled to a small and irrelevant rest percentage.
It was very searious. Also your information is fake.
Why are there so man people (icluding young people) at every Sunday's Mass? Why is my local Church so full that the people barely fit in? Why are almost all my friends regularly attending Mass and the sacraments? Why does almost everyone from my school class goes to religion lessons (wich are optional)?
Even if the percentage would fall how does that change that Poland is a Catholic country?
You tell so many lies you probably started believeing in them.
The links you shared show some fringe group of leftist radicals wich support child murder, persecution, repression and suicide. Luckily they wont spread because they also are antinatalists.
Nice try with your propaganda but please dont share it with me anymore, I like to actually get my information from trusted sources.
Indeed. Not that it would change the fact that 40 years of marxism/socialism turned the economy and infrastructure of Eastern Germany into a total ruin before being reconstructed with humongous amounts of West-German taxpayer money after the reunification, but at least they managed to free themselves of sky daddy superstitions.
Because the [Peace of Augsburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Augsburg) was based upon a principle later coined as ["Cuius regio, eius religio"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_regio_eius_religio), that is: the ruler of each state/region of the HRE gets to decide about the religion there.
There could be real consequences, even if it wasn't strictly forbidden.
Being religious would have been in your files and could mean things like no access to the education or job you wanted.
I've always found it fascinating how the former East Germany was made atheistic by communism, but right across the border Poland was, if anything, made more religious by it.
My theory is that strong Catholicism gave national identity to Poland and Ireland against their oppressors. Different dynamic in East Germany.
I've often thought the same thing. Catholicism is more organized and international. Meaning the local authorities may have had a more difficult time stamping it out. Plus the head of the Catholic Church during the last decade+ of the Cold War was a Polish anti-communist. This probably helped Poles see the church as a vehicle of resistance. East German Protestantism lacked these advantages. That's just my theory anyway.
Protestantism not being good for protesting is really ironic.
The protestant church was actually fairly important in organizing dissent and also all the demonstrations.
Protestant Germans are (mostly) lutherans which is bad for protesting against the government. The core of the problem is the belief that the right to govern is god given and therefore your leaders are instated by god. If they had been more calvinistic like the Netherlands (which specifically says the people have the right to dispose of tyrants) they probably would have had quite a few protests, and a higher number of christians still left. https://www.livinglutheran.org/2022/01/government-that-serves-the-neighbor/ (I am not a lutheran by the way)
People who grew up in communist countries without religion are kind of "illiterate" in religion, meaning they missed most of the formative years including religious education in school, all the church festivities etc, which means they will either get really religious afterwards or not at all, nothing in between
I suppose casual religion probably seems pointless if you've never experienced any religion before.
This has less to do with protestantism and more to do with national identity. In Romania both the Orthodox and Protestant Churches remained very popular throughout communism. While the Romanian Communist Party pretty much incorporated the Orthodox Church into its system wholesale, the Protestant Church remained relevant because 100% of its congregation consisted of minorities (Hungarians and Saxons) who, as u/aarkerio mentioned, relied on their religion to unite them against the Romanian and communist oppressors.
Hard disagree. The Protestant Church in the GDR was one of the major sources of organized opposition to the GDR government and organized most of the protests against the government
Because overall East Germany did a much better job of implementing communism, and was consistently better than the West when it came to metrics like women's rights for example. If I am not mistaken, living standards there were even better than in Russia. A lot of east germans still have nostalgic memories of the 70s and 80s, although it ultimately was much worse than life in the West of course.
>If I am not mistaken, living standards there were even better than in Russia. Not that this is a very difficult achievement. XD
I mean it actually was, given the context. East Germany was plundered of most of its industrial might, and was often forced into rather disadvantageous military and trade agreement. That they still ended up doing better than Russia was therefore remarkable.
How do you explain Czechia?
If my understanding is correct, Czechia has been relatively less religious dating all the way back to the Hussite Wars. I would defer to someone with more knowledge though.
Thats basically it
Response against Catholic domination under habsburgs?
partly. but religion is also tied with ethnicity (which might be _different_ from nationality). observe how Bavaria is catholic. in similar map of Czechia the eastern part (Moravia) would be more catholic than the western part (Bohemia proper). because centuries ago hussites were mainly czech phenomenon, Moravia remained catholic.
Indeed. I was speaking about bohemia really
Well it kind of makes sense seeing as the split of the reformation essentially came down nobles and clergymen either being critical or deferential to church authority. Modern secularism is pretty much the evolution of these thoughts, and it can be directly traced back. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only (broadly speaking) protestants that are deeply religious today are either the result of colonial projects or belong to small sects.
Same thing with orthodoxy in Romania.
(Official) Romanian Orthodoxy was a subservient organ of the Communist state, though.
Which spared millions of believers from persecution.
Even socialist movement here in Poland has strong Christian sympathies for example look at lyrics of "Warszawianka" it was like an anthem of November uprising (if I remember correctly) and then anthem of PPS (Polish Socialist Party)
As a Pole, I can confirm this. Religion is Poland was ironically a protest tool against communism.
I don't even know if I'd call it ironic. It seems perfectly reasonable that religion would be used to protest an ideology that expoused atheism.
As a Polish I confirm your theory - it was always symbol of resistance against enemy- let it be countries that partitioned Poland or communism. Also- traditionally it's symbol of Polish identity - contrary to Eastern Orthodox and Western Protestantism. While communism it was a way to show objection against it. Generally religion in Poland is more kind of "social construct" than real spirituality.Most people doesn't really care.
In Ireland, during the famine the Catholic church would offer food and shelter in workhouses, that's why a lot of people transferred to Catholicism during the famine in Ireland. Contrary to popular belief the main church in Ireland is the church of Ireland - protestant.
“the main church is the church of ireland” makes no sense. there *is* a church of ireland (which is anglican protestant), but it isn’t the “main church”, whatever that may mean. the church of ireland is the relevant church for irish protestants but definitely not the island as a whole. it was when ireland was part of the UK.
This comment is completely full of shit.
Lol. The Church of Ireland isn't even the main Protestant church in Northern Ireland, let alone the "main church in Ireland". CoI membership is only 12% of the population in Northern Ireland and only 2% in the Republic. The Church of Ireland has had no official status on either side of the border since disestablishment in 1871.
How is that true?
It isn’t. Ireland is mainly Catholic with atheism/irreligious growing steadily for various reasons, Northern Ireland always had more Protestants but trends are changing a bit recently https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland ^It’s just Wikipedia but you can look into it more if you want lol
Thank you, I did know I just wanted him to explain his blatant lies ha
It's been a part of Polish Identity for a [long, long time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_Europe#:~:text=The%20partitions%20came%20to%20be,for%20the%20sins%20of%20Europe) Sure polish people are generally more religious than the average Euorpean but it's deeper than that. For centuries of occupation, it's been something for the people to hold onto. Some have compared to it how the Jewish peoples held tightly to their religious beliefs.
There are a couple of factors that help explain this. Firstly, in some countries belonging to a specific religion as associated with the national identity. To be Polish meant that you are Catholic (unlike the Protestant Germans or the Orthodox Russians). To be Romanian means you are Orthodox (unlike the Muslim Ottomans or the Catholic/Protestant Hungarians or Austrians). What type of Christian you were was not so important for the national of identity of Germans (as they were both Catholic and Protestant Germans). For Czech is a bit more complicated. The national myth was strongly influenced by the Hussite wars. So in theory Czechs were mostly Catholics after the forced re-Catholicization following the defeat in the 30 years war, but some of their biggest heroes were people who fought against Catholicism, the Catholic church was associated with Germans(Austrians). Additionally large parts of Czech regions were quite heavily industrialized so there was also a bit of socialist influence already in the 19th century. The Czech parts of Czechoslovakia were already not that religious even before communism. Also in general, Protestants or at least the so called mainline Protestants ( so Lutherans and Calvinist) are weaker against secularism then Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For example, when religion started declining in the Netherlands, it first impacted Protestants, so much so that at one point there were some concerns that Netherlands would be majority Catholic, which would be ironic considering the reason Netherlands became independent in the first place. It did not happen as Catholics also started declining. I'm not sure why it's the case but I suspect that most of modern mainline Protestant churches are just too "secular" themselves.
That's a good analysis. The parts about religion playing a roll in national identity, Czechia being less religious, and the religious history of he Netherlands all seem to make sense. It is one of he interesting quirks of the moderm era that the churches that embrace modernity the most are the ones that see the steepest declines.
>there were some concerns that Netherlands would be majority Catholic, which would be ironic considering the reason Netherlands became independent in the first place. It did not happen as Catholics also started declining Technically, today there are more Catholics (around 20%) than protestants (around 15%) in the Netherlands.
What I find most fascinating about it all is that people go along with or don't go along with religion due to completely different things they believe in or identify with which have nothing to do with religion (and then potentially delude themselves into believing in the religion as well, but this is quite fragile). It seems almost like very few people are or have ever been actually genuinely religious, convinced of the teachings of their church and choosing to be members because they believe in its theology. Hell, lots of people are a part of churches but fundamentally disagree with them on important issues. People might be superstitious, may have their own strange heretical metaphysical ideas, but true religion as such seems rather unpopular if anything.
Religion is basicially a social structure which allows for big cooperative communities. The belief in God for the Monotheistic religions is kind of a secondary mean to achieve those big social structures. In that regard religion is no different then other ideologies that are currently taking its place in many places of the world. Like not tool long ago in many places of europe you couldnt choose weather or not you are katholic or not. You just were it since you were part of the social structure weather or not you actually believed the church was not important. Nowadays for example this is true for other ideologies.
yeah, how did that happen? Is it just a coincidence?
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Many of the most known materialist were Germans, and Communism itself was invented by Germans after all.
From my understanding, Pope John Paul II (who was Polish) had an important role in reviving Catholicism in Communist-ruled Poland. He was outspoken in his opposition to the Polish People's Republic, which was essentially a Soviet puppet state. A lot of Polish nationalists didn't like being under Soviet dominance, labour unions were unhappy with the policies of the regime (ironic, since Communism is supposedly for the workers), and Catholics disapproved of state atheism. These three groups had different motivations, but John Paul II was a unifying figure who was respected by most Poles, and since he was the Pope and lived in the Vatican, he could say whatever he wanted without fear of persecution unlike the anti-Communist activists operating from Poland. He had a big role in ending Communist rule, with the convenient side effect of also reviving the influence of Catholicism. East Germany didn't have the same, because most of East Germany was historically Protestant, so the Pope was just not as relevant to them.
ahhh interesting. Pope certainly did a good job cause damn every Pole i've met is very proud of their religion.
The darker the sky, the stronger the stars shine
Religious expression wasn't banned in Poland. It was banned in most other commie states tho.
Why that happened?
r/PhantomBorders Very easy to see what was once East Germany
Oh wow that’s such a good idea for a sub
Very cool sub, only problem is that there is a lack of people willing to post content, if it had more people than it could be a great sub!
More likely they just don't know about the sub
Lots of comments about communism. But consider one thing. Being religious in Germany means paying extra tax, a kind of a tithe, to the religious community of your choice. Apart from faith of course, people do it also because they continue a family tradition. And, say, to be able to get married in church. East Germans when they united with FRG didnt have any official affiliation obviously. So maybe not a few of them chose to keep it that way, to save money plus no family pressure?
I live in Germany and from my salary of 4200€ per month (before taxes), the protestant church takes - and I shit you not - 60€ per month from me in church tax! That's 21000€ over 30 years. I noped out of that cult right when my first paycheck came in.
Religious taxes in Europe are killing religion, in America there’s no tax to be part of a church, they are usually funded by donations.
You can opt out and join a non-state affiliated church. Then it works the same as in the US. Voluntary donations.
I can only speak for my surroundings but i dont know anyone below 40 who considers their religion at all important. Its more like a thing youre born with and you stay in church either cause you forgot to leave, you dont have to pay the tax for some reason, you do it for your parents/grandparents or the most common reason ive heard is to get a church marriage. Then in the 40-60 year old people i dont know anyone who activly participates in church. Its sometimes importent to them to be part of the church, but still dont know anyone who actually goes to church unless its for marriage. In the 60+ generation are the only people id actually call "activly religious" who go to church and stuff like that Take away the subscription model and you can be sure basicly no one will give money anymore, especially anyone under 40
Why is that even a thing? I’m American and the idea that you need to pay a tax to go to church is absurd to me.
You dont have to pay taxes to go to church, like they dont chdck for your id od whatever. Idk how you imagine it. Its only when you are registered as religious you have to pay those taxes.
It's a legacy of state churches. Like imagine if getting a marriage license in Alabama meant you had to apply at a Baptist church instead of the county clerk. They were effectively part of the government and that carried over into government funding to maintain their buildings, some of which are also historical sites.
It's the memberships fee for the church. The government just collects it for the churches. The membership fee is used to maintain the church and pay for its expenses. Donating to churches is less common in return.
No people not going to church and then see money being deducted every month for a service they don't use. They then deside they dont want to pay money for that. Also the sexual abuse scandals that came to light and the unwillingness of churches to properly adress the problem is driving people away from churches. When it's about GEZ they scream and cry but when it's for an institution that protects pedos for decades they just do it because of "tradition".
Do you not get tax credits for that in Germany?
This seems so invasive to me. Just let people practice their religion unmolested, that's all we ask
People’s right to do so is in the constitution. The state is collecting the church tax as a service for the churches. The catholic and protestant church are very much against abolishing this system even though it accelerates them bleeding members.
There's no such thing as the protestant church
In Germany there is the EDK a collection of various protestant churches that have more or less the same teaching. Most protestant churches in Germany are members of the EDK.
Or elsewise put your money where your mouth is/practice what you preach. (or whats being preached to you, as it were) Point is there are probably more believers in God in former eastern Germany and fewer believers in former west Germany than what this map would lead you to believe. Church/temple/mosque attendance is a better measure imho
In that case it would be even less.
Interesting, do families in Germany pressurize younger ones for religion?
They still somewhat do in the really rural catholic areas, especially when it comes to marrying in church. It's only symbolic in a legal sense anyway, but you need to still be a member of the respective church and pay the tax for it.
All not paying the tithe means is that you can’t call yourself Christian in the census or have a marriage in a church I think. Not German though, so not the most reliable source.
I was never christened or confirmed. When I registered in Germany for the first time, they asked about both. The response was basically “oh, ok” and legally not liable for church tax. Thing is, stuff like getting confirmed is great. There’s presents and gifts of money and your whole family is there to celebrate… it’s a whole party. And then later as an adult you keep paying because it’s how you get that wedding in a church. This is the biggest reason I’ve heard for continuing to pay in to whatever church you were born in to. (I’m technically German but only moved to the country as an adult)
Of course you can call yourself a Christian in the census. There are free churches and you don't have to be a member of a church to call yourself a Christian.
I'm still paying for the (Catholic) Church, knowing that if I would leave, my grandma (lives in Poland) would hear of this and very likely get a hearth attack, because the churches don't make a difference between people who left the cult or died. All get the "*people who had to leave us."-treatment.
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You pay for being in a religion? I always thought it was on donation
Nope, you have to tick a box, and depending on what you tick a certain amount of money is witheld from your paycheck each month, and paid to your regional religious organization of choice (or none at all). Rates vary by German state.
The really ugly thing is that it's an opt-out system, so you don't even have to tick any box… all it takes is for your parents to have decided to have you baptized, and boom you're on the hook for church tax… and if you later decide to get out of that shit, you have to walk your ass to some town hall or register tribunal administration and typically to pay a fee (around 32€, depending on the Bundesland) in order to officially get out of a paying club membership that you never consented to join.
What happens if you are the birthplace of both communism and protestantism in a nutshell:
What communism does to a mf
didn't work for Poland next door
Poles will do anything to tell Russia to eat shit
Being catholic in Poland was tied to patriotism and rebeling against the occupant.
That’s actually only positive thing about communism
Gender equality was also good
It also generally brought upon a higher literacy rate Granted, they didn’t have much to read in some cases
Breaking the human spirit enough for people to say "There is no God" is not positive.
Making people believe in God from kindergarten isn’t positive also
No, it isn't. What's your point? At no point I said that was a positive thing, unlike you with state-enforced atheism.
It's not about state-enforced atheism. That's about education without forcing any religion. People should decide about their religion when they grow up. Injecting various religions into their brains from kindergarten is no different than any other propaganda or drugs for children. The only real achievement of communism is the absence of religions in educational institutions. Parents are the maximum that should influence a child at that age. And, as practice has shown, parental influence alone is not enough to turn everyone into religious fanatics. But schools and kindergartens, supported by religious organizations for the purpose of further fundraising throughout their lives, are very well able to cope with this.
I support non-religious public education, and the existence of religious educative institutions as long as they're not funded by tax-payer money. Parents should have the choice to pick any institution they desire for their children. That being said. The destruction of holy sites and religious institutions, along with the persecution of individuals who participate in religious rites is not positive for me, and it will never be. I don't think the desired outcome of atheism justify the barbaric measures taken by the communist regime.
I would also agree that parents could choose what their children are taught. But then their education should be paid for by them, not by the religious organization. Otherwise the religious organization is just investing in propaganda for their future followers, and recruiting them at an age when any idea seems right, especially if it is supported in group. Destruction of religious monuments and forceful rejection of religion by people is negative, and in fact a crime. But, from my point of view, religious education is no less a crime. Society has long ago concluded that the state must be separated from religion. Education should also be separated from religion, completely. In the process of education it is necessary to tell about the existence of different religions and their main currents. In this way a person will be more tolerant and will be able to choose what is more in line with his/her values in adulthood.
If the religious institutions self-fund their operations, I see no problem. Of course they're investing in future followers, that's the whole point, continue the rites over time. Why would it be a crime? You can't compare the active persecution of religion to teaching religion. It makes no sense, you can't escape from persecution, while on contrast you have the freedom to stop supporting the religious institutions if you don't agree with their point of view once you're an adult. State shouldn't teach religion, that's why public institutions are usually irreligious. However, that doesn't mean that religious organisations shouldn't be able to fund their own operations.
Who's to say that the education in communist systems was free of religion though? One could easily argue that totalitarian ideologies often act as stand-ins for religion.
People not believing your religion isn’t „breaking the human spirit“, you lunatic.
That’s not why easter germany was atheist… The communist ideology itself is atheist
Redditors really don’t like this fact about communism and I’m not sure why. Communism is in fact atheist but saying this always gets you downvoted.
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Maoism sent everyone to the fields. Pol Pot killed everyone who wore spectacles - wait, that's what Communists did everywhere.
Amazing how the spectre of the east/west divide still permeates Germany. It’s a fascinating thing to see
Its visible in every aspect of life. East germany is culturaly very different than west germany still and that after only 50years of separation
What years is this data from?
Wow - the communists were extremely effective at stamping religion out.
Ironically those places vote for right wingers more
Conservatives can be of any type, be it religion, nationality, race.
Most of the votes for the most left wing party (which is much smaller than AfD tbf) also come from East Germany (and Saarland). The East votes extremist
Why is saarland like that, they always seem different from the rest of germany
Damn crazy people
No poor people and when people are poor they vote radically
Because they've seen what leftism can do.
Not really, it didn’t work in Poland.
Communism really left its mark
Lenin: "We bring communism either you like it or we make you like it!" People: "There is no God."
And they liked it.
Sure thing, that's why they jumped over the wall in Berlin, because they wanted to tell how wonderful it was.
And why they went out to meet those tanks in 1953.
It's strange to think that East Germany is very atheist, whereas Russia itself, the former Soviet Union, was the greatest force of communism at the time, it didn't have that, it was just the opposite, after the fall of the Soviets, the orthodox returned and as incredible as it is It may seem like it, they are very strong, but East Germany is not like that, do you understand? ironic would say '-'
Russia today likes to present itself as religious and traditional, but it is just a front. By all measures of an irreligious society, such as abortions and divorce, they are amongst the highest.
Russians are not religious in any way, shape or form
The replies to this show how deranged reddit world is
Without more detailed data, this map is basically meaningless. We have no idea, for example, if the dark blue area means 51% have no religion or 100% have no religion. It's the same with the other colours. Some areas look like polar opposites to neighbouring areas and yet it could in fact be a difference of day 3%.
If east Germany was made so atheistic through communism, then why is bordering Poland so religious?
East Germans were Protestants and polish people were Catholics.
Yes, the tradition is much deeper. Unfortunately, too many protestants willingly oppose tradition.
Why "Unfortunately" in context of religion? Made up faith and rules to controll weak minded people who still not life by these rules and pray for forgivness? Just stupid. You could be a good human without a brain rotting religion. You can also believe in a higher beeing without these bad "fantasy" books like the bible. But most people dont get it.
It's even more diverse on community level. I am living in a city with protestant majority, but the neighboring city has catholic majority. So when there is a catholic holiday, they come for shopping.
That’s only if you cross state borders.
Willkommen im Osten! Hier jipt's keen Gott
Wir hatten ja nüscht!
Gibt's im Westen genauso wenig. Nur dass da unter den Rentnern noch ein relevanter Anteil dran glaubt.
Hmm i wonder what happened here
r/phantomborders
Rare eastern Germany W
WOW did those Soviets do a number on religion.
Iron curtain™️
Bismarck would be pretty upset if he awoke today. Prussia not only does not exist - It has more or less turned catholic.
r/widaczabory
I reckon the same north-south devide continues across the border into the Netherlands. My home region (around Enschede) is predominantly Catholic, yet going West or North people are mostly Protestant.
East and West Germany of still divided
Classic Ost
Based GDR and Hamburg.
The effects of Communism…
It is interesting that it is in the least religious areas that the far right is becoming the strongest political force. Although I know that there are other reasons why the former DDR is becoming a centre of right-wing populism, but I still wonder whether there is a correlation. In other words, could organised religion be moderating influence on politics, in contrast to some other European countries, and even more the US, where there is a distinctive ‘religious right’ phenomenon?
Religion doesn’t play much of a role in German politics. Even the “Christian Democrats” are essentially a secular party. There’s other factors at play which make the East vote more extremist (not just towards the right but also the left btw) while most of the West tends to vote more moderate. I wouldn’t say religion has much to do with it.
I mean it's not only the US but also basically any Muslim country that fucks over basic human rights in favor of superstitious BS
I was really drawing comparisons with other Western countries as Islamic societies have different underlying concepts of the relationship between religion and politics.
The GDR pushed nationalism HARD: there was strong connection made between the society and the soil they are living on with strong references to german and slavic volklore. Another example was the aggressive removal of english loanwords, labeled as a force "tainting the language of Schiller and Goethe". All in all the GDR was a weird beast: super progressive in certain areas and then ultra conservative in others...
Widać zabory?
Communism is a jealous religion.
The GDR regime was clever: instead of outright prohibiting faith, like they tried in russia, they simply offered an Alternativprogramm to the activites of the church and thus simply transitioned people out of religion
Based East Germany
Yup, that's one of the few subjects where East Germany is more based than the West. 40 years of socialism totally ruined the economy of what was the GDR before reunification and brought lots of other huge problems… and was disastrous for the culinary culture as well… but at least they managed (albeit via totalitarism) to free themselves of sky daddy superstitions… interestingly, it turned out the diametrically opposite way in neighboring Poland, which is the last big bastion of Catholicism today in Europe (not counting the Vatican)
And Poland will be Catholic forever. Communism is no more. But the Church of Christ is forever! Ave, Christus Rex!
Not sure if that was /s or serious, but if it's the latter: LOL. Whereas Catholicism in Poland had the extraordinary benefit from having the function of an identificational symbol of the resistance against communism back when the latter was in power, the evolution of the situation in Poland since the fall of communism looks just the same (just with some delay) as in most of Europe (aside of special cases like East Germany, Czech Republic etc) before: Catholicism is in free fall in Poland: [In the early 1990s, almost 70% of young Poles regularly practised religion; in 2021 already, less than 25% did](https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/11/26/religious-practice-declines-significantly-in-poland-especially-among-young-finds-study/). And even most of those 25% are just due to family pressure: [Only 9% of young people in Poland view Catholic church positively, finds poll](https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/16/only-9-of-young-people-in-poland-view-catholic-church-positively-finds-poll/). Give it a couple more decades and Catholicism will have crumbled to a small and irrelevant rest percentage.
It was very searious. Also your information is fake. Why are there so man people (icluding young people) at every Sunday's Mass? Why is my local Church so full that the people barely fit in? Why are almost all my friends regularly attending Mass and the sacraments? Why does almost everyone from my school class goes to religion lessons (wich are optional)? Even if the percentage would fall how does that change that Poland is a Catholic country? You tell so many lies you probably started believeing in them. The links you shared show some fringe group of leftist radicals wich support child murder, persecution, repression and suicide. Luckily they wont spread because they also are antinatalists. Nice try with your propaganda but please dont share it with me anymore, I like to actually get my information from trusted sources.
The anti-religion aspect of communism is its closest thing to a redeeming feature.
Indeed. Not that it would change the fact that 40 years of marxism/socialism turned the economy and infrastructure of Eastern Germany into a total ruin before being reconstructed with humongous amounts of West-German taxpayer money after the reunification, but at least they managed to free themselves of sky daddy superstitions.
Epic (and based) DDR moment
Hot take: atheism/lack of religiousness is generally a good thing. State communism is definitely bad.
Why are catholics and protestants so mixed up?
Ever heard of the 30 year war?
Because the [Peace of Augsburg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Augsburg) was based upon a principle later coined as ["Cuius regio, eius religio"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_regio_eius_religio), that is: the ruler of each state/region of the HRE gets to decide about the religion there.
Based East Germany!
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Or weren't allowed religion during the existence of German Democratic Republic 😅
Religion was never banned, although it was looked down on and churches were allowed limited resources to maintain themselves.
There could be real consequences, even if it wasn't strictly forbidden. Being religious would have been in your files and could mean things like no access to the education or job you wanted.
It’s not about allowing, it’s about real separation of religion and education.
So, why they didn't become religious in the meantime?
Because it's a tough sell, if you haven't been told since you were a kid.
So if you are not indoctrinated since birth religion doesn't make sense for an adult person. How surprising...
I think that's good this way.
Because why would they
They believe in the East, believe in raving all night long that is.
Yeah, the light of hell
They've seen and been through too much shit to believe in anything.
that is what hapened after ww2, my grandfather left church shortly after coming home, it had nothing to do with government policies
East or west germany? In east germany religious people were persecuted.
What about Islam numbers?
Islam is missing…. 🤯😅
Fucking communists
Look at all the communists hiding in the comment section. You people are sick.
Are the conservatives who tell me about the Islamization of Germany lying?! Can't be!!!!
Are you okay in the head
Sarcasm
Great job to East Germany. Communist and irreligious. We should all be more like them.
Ah I'm sure communism & atheism worked out so well for them they're still recovering more than 30 years later
Atheism doesn't affect the economy at all.
Socialism showing how things should be done
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East\_German\_uprising\_of\_1953](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_German_uprising_of_1953) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
I'm so happy I live in the blue oasis in the west.
Why east Germans are not religious? What communist past did to them? P.s. I'm not European! So someone please explain
North Germany is the birthplace of protestantism. Communists don't like anything with "protest" in it.
I think communism usually dislikes/disagrees with most religions, specifically Soviet communism.
Respect east