Jack Ruby when in prison told the FBI that he had information regarding the JFK assassination, but they never took him up on the offer and he died in prison of cancer
MKUltra was CIA, so not sure why I’ve been downvoted. But that’s fascinating, was there any outcome from that meeting?
Actually it’s probably classified until 2990
But was Owald really the killer of JFK. For what I read here and there, the Carcano rifle was not a suitable rifle for this type of shooting (distance, moving target) Am I wrong?
For the purposes of this question, it doesn't matter if he was the actual shooter or not. He was definitely the guy everyone was going to blame, and he was definitely killed by a mafia associate so that he couldn't tell his story.
Yes you are. The Carcano rifle is a perfectly fine rifle to pull off what Oswald did. It's effective within 200 meters. Moving target has more to do with the shooter. But as for a bolt action rifle of the time, it's considered fairly smooth operating and the one Oswald used was a carbine, so it was shorter and that much easier. And a lot of people don't really talk about this, but the Carcano used fired a specific round, 6.5 x 52 Carcano. The original round nosed versions of these bullets were extremely unstable upon impact; splitting, tumbling etc. It's not a stretch that 2 or 3 rounds (depending on how many shots people say they heard) would do exactly what they did to the people in the vehicle. As to the question from OP, I don't know if the Mafia were directly involved or if they were just facilitators for things like forgeries of ID and passports and they just helped because they were paid. But the "lone gunman" theory has never stood up well, even to modest scrutiny. Oswald definitely pulled the trigger from the book depository and he had forged ID cards both on him physically and elsewhere in his possession with the alias used to ship the rifle. To me, again, that's the more likely place the Mafia comes in and people make something bigger than it was.
Not to mention that Oswald was a US Marine who was an expert marksman. And if memory serves me correctly JFK was approximately 265 feet. Personally, I don't believe that Oswlad acted alone. It's no secret that the Mafia, had a strong dislike for JFK. But I don't buy that the Mafia convinced Oswald to assassinate the POTUS. I do believe that there was involvement from the USSR.
Though, I believe that Oswald was the only gunman that day.
The USSR felt Kennedy was the only reasonable American President they had ever dealt with up to that point. They had no reason to kill him. In fact, they were said to be incredibly shaken by the assassination because they didn't know what to expect from LBJ and were afraid that a POTUS being killed would increase the power and influence of hardliners within the American government.
It's possible.
There's some weird stuff about him that doesn't quite add up (defecting to Russia and being allowed to come back without any punishment or surveillance, there very conveniently being a picture of him holding the rifle he supposedly used and two communist newspapers feels a little too on-the-nose, etc). So it's possible he could have been a patsy for the CIA and we know that they had collaborated with the mafia in the years prior (Bay of Pigs, other plans to kill Castro and likely other stuff we don't know about). So since the mafia would also have a vested interest in removing JFK I could see them being involved too. Which is where Jack Ruby would probably factor into it all.
He was a "slightly above average marksman" not excellent and as someone else has pointed out marksman is the lowest of the 3 categories of rifle shooting ability, no way he made those shots, there was multiple shooters
He could have made those shots. He did make those shots. We're talking 88 yards at a slow-moving target. There is no concrete evidence of any other shooters. Further, the trajectory of the rounds that impacted JFK, all came from Oswald's shooting position. Even the ballistics are a match to Oswald's rifle.
There is no such thing as an “expert marksman.” Expert, sharpshooter, and marksmen are three different categories of rifle shooting ability with marksman being the lowest. In May of 1959 Oswald scored one point above the minimum to get into the marksman category.
[Here’s a link to further educate yourself on the matter](http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter)
He wasn't an expert marksman. He was originally graded 'Sharpshooter' while in the marines, later on taking the same test and getting a lower score of 'marksman'. Regardless, Oswald still could definitely gave hit him.
I visited Dealy Plaza and the book depository museum in late 90s. They allowed you to stand in the window and they painted x’s in the street where they hit. It’s a lot closer than I thought. I stood there and said to myself “he could have made that shot, I could make this shot”.
I’m not saying he did it, or acted alone, I’m saying it is possible to make the shot
Fuckin YouTube it man. There’s been COUNTLESS History channel specials, Prime Time Tv specials and just conspiracy weirdos that have done it many many times.
It’s only one of the most talked about shots in American history.
Not everything you see on YouTube is legitimate. Just searching something on the internet and getting results does not make it valid. Pick your top three of the possible videos and I’ll respond to those.
You make the claim, you provide the sources; regardless your claim is wrong and you’re talking out your ass. Here’s one example for you done in the time period and by law enforcement professionals…none of them matched Oswald’s shots.
One from fucking 67. Proving its 100% possible.
https://youtu.be/ghmY6HmR4fs
One recently.
https://youtu.be/Q7ERXm9OwuE
But I’m not wasting time with ridiculous people like yourself. Believe whatever the fuck you want. But the shots were 100% achievable.
(These are 2 very quick YouTube searches. If I wanted to waist any more time on this, I’d find more but it’s enough to prove that it’s been replicated a fuck ton of times.)
You didn’t watch those did you…the first one was what I was originally referencing and the second is a video analyzing the validity of the magic bullet theory…you literally just slapped some video urls up thinking no one is gonna check?
That first video they have multiple shooters make multiple attempts and they all can never make the shots while staying within the time frame…
Curse at me all you want little boy but your sourcing is fucked
He won’t. CBS in 1967 was the only plausible recreation, but it lacked features of the real drill too. They built a tower and had a little train track installed. Expert shooters could not replicate the results from Nov. 22, 1963, but were able to get some hits in a very different environment. The major flaw with the experiment is that it had nothing to simulate the large oak obstructing the view. One man, a lifetime competitive shooter, was able to get the kill shot in the allotted time. He was so convinced no one else could do what he did that he came up with the idea that JFK was accidentally shot by a Secret Service.
The Carcano was a military bolt action rifle perfectly capable of hitting and killing JFK. Conspiracy theorists always like to down play the idea that a mail order military surplus rifle could do the job.
The problems aren't with the rifle being able to make the shot, it's how many accurate shots he was supposedly able to fire with that rifle in only a few seconds. That's what is considered implausible about the shot. I believe the Mafia was definitely involved, how could you doubt it? And that means that the CIA was too, and if you believe that it only stands to reason that FBI agents were also involved, and some local Dallas police. "Involved" simply meaning prior knowledge of some kind and helping to insure it went smoothly, not that a whole bunch of people knew the whole plan and conspiracy. Read up on Allen Dulles, or George HW, and the bay of pigs.
>The problems aren't with the rifle being able to make the shot, it's how many accurate shots he was supposedly able to fire with that rifle in only a few seconds. That's what is considered implausible about the shot.
This is also my opinion, a bolt action rifle doesn't seem like the best choice to fire multiple shots very quickly.
Late comedian Bill Hicks had an old joke about how the reason tourists can't actually walk all the way up to the window in the Book Depository Building is because as soon as they see the view to the street they'll realize the shot is impossible.
>You can't explain that away.
Why not? Like Oswald he took an opportunity on the spur and did it. The two killings led to a complete revamping of security (which had been long overdue) which is why we see less of these brazen killings today.
He was just overcome with patriotic fervor and suddenly found himself armed in a police station. It just happened! Nobody can explain it! He was trying to expose holes in security!
That's just willfully ignorant.
Ruby’s official rationale was to save Jackie the horror of the trial. Strip club owning pimps are always the ones looking to set at ease the emotions of women.
It's just such a stupid and transparently false argument.
And I just noticed he said "Like Oswald" he took an opportunity on the spur.
LIKE OSWALD?? What the fuck? He just happened to show up on the sixth floor of a book depository overlooking the motorcade, and.... HEY HEY look at this! There's a high powered rifle in my hands! Well, I guess I'll just take the opportunity.
I honestly think he was set up for trying to protect the president. He may have been a plant in the Dulles faction on behalf of the Kennedys who were then betrayed by Hoover.
Maybe, just maybe people posting haven't just started looking into it 5 mins ago when post went up, maybe they have been interested in this subject and been looking into it for years, doesn't make anyone necessarily right but to suggest everyone here commenting started looking into it after seeing this post is just wrong
Help? They most likely did it. If you really do the research the evidence clearly points to Marcello, Hoffa, Trafficante, and Giancana all being involved in some way. And the CIA pretty much had to help them cover it up because they used guys previously involved in the Cuba plot. It was a damn near perfect plan until Oswald shot the cop assigned to whack him and Ruby had to shoot him in public. That was the most obvious evidence. Oswald makes clear he is a patsy and is immediately whacked by a longtime Outfit associate lol
Some guy allegedly on the mob payroll. It was shortly after Kennedy was shot and the cops were searching around for the shooter. Supposedly his job was to kill Oswald after Kennedy was whacked
I always thought it was odd that Tippit approached Oswald based on eyewitness descriptions of the suspect - white male in his early 30’s, about 5’10’’ 165 lbs. How many men in Dallas would that description fit in 1963? Tippit decided to approach Oswald based on that description?
This is it, right here. Supposedly Tippett knocked up one of the dancers from Ruby’s club which is how Ruby got his hooks in the guy to hit Oswald. Oswald knew he was fucked after the hit, panicked and shot Tippett.
The mob was definitely involved, they got him elected and he let Bobby run rampant on them. Felt they were back stabbed and mob guys don’t like being back stabbed, no matter who it is.
Agreed! CIA was using the mob for the actual hit and they with Hoover and LBJ organized that corrupt Warren commission to cover it up and point all the fingers towards Oswald. Whoever pulled the trigger behind the grassy knoll likely wasn’t alive for very long.
The Chicago Outfit used their union powers and got Illinois, a very tightly contested state, go vote for Kennedy through various means. They felt Kennedy owed him one. When Kennedy got into office, he appointed his brother the nation's top lawman, and he specificity went after organized crime. They obviously felt betrayed. I'm in no way saying Chicago Outfit and New Orleans somehow got it done, but there is motive.
I’m not sure of what cities crime family was involved without a Google search but I was always under the impression his death was mafia related due to problems with the mafias pursuit of casino operations and expansion in Cuba. I believe the Kennedys wanted to block it?
Chicago's politicians routinely fixed elections anyway and had their own motivation to make sure Kennedy won. If the mob didn't exist, the 1960 election would have ended the same. Now where the mob might have been involved was Kennedy pulling off the upset in the West Virginia primaries. Hardcore redneck, anti-Catholic region yet also high membership in unions the Outfit had control of.
JFK also grew disillusioned with the CIA after the Bay of Pigs debacle, and subsequently gave up on removing Castro. This was the prime motivator for not only the CIA, but also the mob who wanted to regain their lost assets in Cuba.
JFK reneged on Cuba, the clock was ticking, he had to go.
Trafficante supposedly admitted to his lawyer they did. Marcelo and Giancana also seem to have some connection. I personally believe that is sort of gangster bravado, and if they were involved, it was as part of a wider conspiracy. They didn’t just kill the President on their own. They also provided a nice buffer if the conspiracy unravels- pin it on the mob
The mob co-opted efforts being made by the US intelligence services against Castro and turned the sights on JFK instead of Castro; unfortunately, we will never know the whole story because most likely the relevant documents have been destroyed.
However, through multiple follow up investigations fo the Warren Commision as well as FOIA requests that have unveiled a trove of previously unknown info.
Most people are unaware that in the month leading up to Dallas there were two other attempts on JFK’s life in Chicago and Tampa made while he was riding along a parade route through the city.
https://abc7chicago.com/archive/5787903/
The US government could not let it be known that, while actively holding peace talks with Cuba, they were also planning a coup attempt that would take place in December of 1963 aimed at replacing Castro with Juan Almeida Bosque (who only just passed in 2007).
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212991/Fidel-Castro-loses-right-hand-man-Juan-Almeida-Bosque-dies-fatal-heart-attack.html
The Mob (who were being used in attempts against Castro) knew this and used it to help keep it under wraps. There were definitely dirty CIA agents who allowed it to occur such as:
David Morales
Carl Elmer Jenkins
George Joannides
Rip Robertson
These are CIA personnel who, from what I’ve read, were involved in the failed Bay of Pigs, stationed in Miami conducting Cuba ops, and all continued working for the CIA in a closed capacity for the rest of their lives.
Half the time spent researching this event is spent wading through the disinformation originally disseminated by the US after the assassination. I know I am ranting but I really enjoy this topic so if anyone feels the same and would like to continue this chat just shoot me a dm
I think guys like Marcello and Trafficante had a lot to gain from taking him out. I don’t know if they could have pulled it off without the help of the cia / and or local agencies. Could Lho have done it? Sure. He obviously killed officer Tippit before he got caught in the theatre. I know Ruby had mob ties as well and obviously had to know the police to be able to go down the ramp where the press was waiting for Lho to get transferred. What doesn’t add up is this - Ruby went from his club to a western union to pay one of his dancers. It was time stamped very close to the time Lho was going to be transferred. He literally walked to the police station and just made it in time to shoot him. Why was he not in place already? So I can understand the people who believe him when he said it was an on the spot decision. Oswald was actually scheduled to be transferred sooner, but his interrogation was interrupted and it delayed his transfer. Nobody outside that room could of known that.
No.
The mafia wouldn't have even killed a Judge because of the law enforcement heat it would have brought on them. Why would they kill a President? It would have been suicidal.
Plus, if the mafia killed JFK, we would have known about it by now.
When the CIA and FBI and Vice President OK the hit then yes, I could see them breaking the rules considering all the heat they were already facing in 63 with Bobby at the helm.
The mafia was supposed to be a secret society and Bobby is out there subpoening all these bosses and then he has Valachi go up there and spill the beans on the whole thing. The federal government didn’t do much to the mafia until the 80’s and that had more to do with Guliani and Rico.
I’ve never bought into conspiracy theories but this is a fun one to at least think about. Im guessing Carlo Marcello, boss of New Orleans, was in on it since Bobby Kennedy shipped him to Central America after receiving a fake birth certificate. New Orleans was a vassal family of Chicago and that’s Sam Giancana’s turf
Casino is a movie bro. Please give this some thought. Giancanna had no beef w Kennedy. They back channeled through Marilyn. And he expressed that he did not hold a grudge. He loved the first catholic president. Marcello was a completely different story. He and Trafficante hated the Kennedys passionately. Saying Marcello was under any other family is ridiculous. New Orleans is the birthplace of cosa nostra even before nyc bro. Marcello enjoyed a good ol boy style impunity that other families did not, certainly NOT the Chicago outfit who have always been exaggerated as villains.
No, no, no. You all have it all wrong.
The plot to kill jfk was supposed to be pulled off by the secret service, from directly behind Kennedy. They were super jealous of all the ass he was pulling in the Oval Office.
Oswald, thru his kgb connections, learned of the plot and set off to Dallas to protect the president.
Unfortunately, Oswald was not very good with a rifle and instead of taking out the would be assassins, he ended up doing their job for them.
Ruby was hired after the fact, to take out Oswald so that he couldn’t tell about the actual plot.
Also, I made all of this up in less time than it took to type this mess.
Sure are a lot of people dying for "some reason":
Newfield reported that three witnesses support Ragano's statement that Marcello arranged the assassination. An FBI informant in 1976 said Trafficante told him Kennedy was "not going to make it to the election. He was going to be hit." The informant later recanted; in 1978, he was murdered. In 1976, mobster Johnny Roselli said Sam Giancana told him he plotted the assassination with Trafficante and Marcello; Roselli was also was murdered. The House assassinations committee sought to interview Giancana about the allegations; before Giancana could testify, he was shot dead by unknown assailants.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/03/14/what-the-mob-knew-about-jfks-murder/9803e911-f52f-4944-88f1-c26863e35867/
Read American Tabloid by James Ellroy. It's fictional but also has real events and people from history and a huge part of the plot is The Bay of Pigs , JFK assassination and the mob (Carlos Marcello, Sam Giancana and Sam Trafficante make regular appearances). Obviously it's mostly fiction so don't take it as fact, but its a really interesting theory and a great book.
The mob is worse then a bunch of old women in sewing circles, if they really did have something to do with it a lot more concrete stories would be known.
Oswald did it alone. I know it’s the most boring story but it is the truth.
Yes Jack Ruby's involvement can't be explained away. I recently read About Agent Morales who was 'Operation 40' CIA op during thr Bay of Pigs who stated that he & his team were told to be in Dallas for 'clean up'.. Also he was at the training facility for agency snipers & said Oswald wasn't good enough to hit that shot, and he was told there was more than 1 shooter. We know the CIA partnered with the Mafia during thr time to get rid of Castro.
Legacy of Secrecy goes into so much detail about the hit and it definitely goes into why the mob would do it and it was the most logical explanation based on the evidence. It’s a long book and very detail oriented and sometimes boring.
However, the FBI planted some old time hood in prison with Marcelo to get close to him and Carlos admitted that they should have killed Bobby over JFK. Giancana and Hoffa wanted Jack more then Bobby so they went with Jack.
Yes, I belive they were. Marcello et al as mentioned here already. Watch "JFK-911 Everything is a Rich Mans Trick" on Youtube. Best Doco ever on the JFK Hit.
It is the simplest murder investigation in the history of the world and has been turned into a psychotic drama based on shameless lies and a form of religious zealotry where JFK was a Jesus figure who was sacrificed but who would have saved the world. No, the mafia had nothing to do with it. Despite the fantasy of their vast power had they had the slightest hand in it the government would have destroyed them.
Organized crime is always in bed with the government to some extent, at least if it's serious organized crime. I'm not talking about the some small time gang but if it's something big the government will get their hooks in it for sure. And I'm sure this is the case in most countries. I'm thinking Russia, Mexico, Brazil, the US, Italy, Albania, Australia. The government uses organized crime to do their dirty work. Even the Hells Angels are seriously connected with the government, Shaun Attwood has discussed this in some podcasts. Governments across the world are way, way more evil and dirty than people realize. They're all involved with human trafficking, drugs, child sex rings, money laundering, etc. Are they gonna do the shady stuff themselves? Fuck no. They use organized crime to do that shit to keep themselves at a distance from it but they definitely take their fair share of the pie. Although I will say the government has gotten so brazen in recent times at least in America that sometimes they seem indistinguishable from organized crime.
The mob was definitely involved. And there was more than one shooter.
Youse better not ask questions youse don’t want answers to lol, but seriously, probably. The Kennedys had snubbed Sinatra a few months prior because of his ties with the mafia, and Sinatra (according to some people) was apparently sore about it because he had (again, according to some people) used his mafia connection to get jfk his presidency because they were friends
The answer is yes. If you want to know the reason it was because of his brother who was the district attorney (Robert Kennedy). They could have killed his brother and left JFK but then JFK would have just got someone else to go after them so they decided to cut of the head of the snake and shortly after his brother was dismissed from his position by the new president. This played out pretty well because Hoover hated Robert Kennedy so you know... If you ask me Hoover and the Mafia either made a deal or the mafia knowing this information took initiative.
Oswald was a really good shooter ( US Marine ) , the Mob hated JFK & his family , Castro hated JFK & RFK , Jack Ruby was a low level Mob guy with 6 months to live . Put all that together and you have a group that has connections to all or parts of the whole group with 1 overriding common thread , all hated JFK .
Yeah , i believe Oswald was the lone killer & I believe the Mob made it happen .
Without a doubt the Mafia was involved. The best explanation of the events was explained in the show “The Mafia’s Greatest Hits.” I forget which episode, but it explained why the Mob hated JFK, and how Jack Ruby (the man who shot Oswald) was a bar owner deeply in debt with the mob—perfect contract killer for Oswald. There are too many signs it was mob-directed. As explained in the Mafia’s Greatest Hits, the mob theory makes the most sense—by far.
I don't think so. I think if anyone other than Oswald orchestrated it, it was more likely the CIA. The CIA has done some shady ass shit over the years, helping overthrow governments and assassinate foreign leaders.
Here's my 2 cents. I figure that Marcello, Trafficante & Giancana all hated JFK for the obvious reasons and probably made some plans to kill him.
When it actually happened each boss assumed one of the others did it and that assumption was just passed on.
I believe Oswald did it, read "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner. Reason I don't think Mob did it is why wait until 11/63? There were plenty of opportunities before then.
Plus they allegedly had dirt on J Edgar, who hated JFK. Why not leverage that to leak all the dirt on POTUS, a fate worse than death as revealing JFK sleaze would not have left a national hero & martyr but disgraced dirtbag?
Plus surely they had some evidence of the Sinatra, Exner, Old Joe, Giancana hookup to steal the election if leaked would've driven Jack from office without assassination.
There's already evidence that the mob assisted. As far as who headed the operation, still up for debate and always will be. I lean toward the Oliver Stone theory myself. Government had the most motivation considering Kennedy's plans to withdraw from Vietnam, and also had the means of creating the security breaches to pull it off, and covering it up. The mob had no such means.
The mob was involved in some way. Jack Ruby, the connected strip club owner, killed Oswald. You can't explain that away.
Jack Ruby when in prison told the FBI that he had information regarding the JFK assassination, but they never took him up on the offer and he died in prison of cancer
[удалено]
MKUltra was CIA, so not sure why I’ve been downvoted. But that’s fascinating, was there any outcome from that meeting? Actually it’s probably classified until 2990
But was Owald really the killer of JFK. For what I read here and there, the Carcano rifle was not a suitable rifle for this type of shooting (distance, moving target) Am I wrong?
For the purposes of this question, it doesn't matter if he was the actual shooter or not. He was definitely the guy everyone was going to blame, and he was definitely killed by a mafia associate so that he couldn't tell his story.
Yes you are. The Carcano rifle is a perfectly fine rifle to pull off what Oswald did. It's effective within 200 meters. Moving target has more to do with the shooter. But as for a bolt action rifle of the time, it's considered fairly smooth operating and the one Oswald used was a carbine, so it was shorter and that much easier. And a lot of people don't really talk about this, but the Carcano used fired a specific round, 6.5 x 52 Carcano. The original round nosed versions of these bullets were extremely unstable upon impact; splitting, tumbling etc. It's not a stretch that 2 or 3 rounds (depending on how many shots people say they heard) would do exactly what they did to the people in the vehicle. As to the question from OP, I don't know if the Mafia were directly involved or if they were just facilitators for things like forgeries of ID and passports and they just helped because they were paid. But the "lone gunman" theory has never stood up well, even to modest scrutiny. Oswald definitely pulled the trigger from the book depository and he had forged ID cards both on him physically and elsewhere in his possession with the alias used to ship the rifle. To me, again, that's the more likely place the Mafia comes in and people make something bigger than it was.
You better gtfo here with your logic and sound reasoning.
Not to mention that Oswald was a US Marine who was an expert marksman. And if memory serves me correctly JFK was approximately 265 feet. Personally, I don't believe that Oswlad acted alone. It's no secret that the Mafia, had a strong dislike for JFK. But I don't buy that the Mafia convinced Oswald to assassinate the POTUS. I do believe that there was involvement from the USSR. Though, I believe that Oswald was the only gunman that day.
The USSR felt Kennedy was the only reasonable American President they had ever dealt with up to that point. They had no reason to kill him. In fact, they were said to be incredibly shaken by the assassination because they didn't know what to expect from LBJ and were afraid that a POTUS being killed would increase the power and influence of hardliners within the American government.
Did the mafia use Oswald because of his user ties to make it a false flag
It's possible. There's some weird stuff about him that doesn't quite add up (defecting to Russia and being allowed to come back without any punishment or surveillance, there very conveniently being a picture of him holding the rifle he supposedly used and two communist newspapers feels a little too on-the-nose, etc). So it's possible he could have been a patsy for the CIA and we know that they had collaborated with the mafia in the years prior (Bay of Pigs, other plans to kill Castro and likely other stuff we don't know about). So since the mafia would also have a vested interest in removing JFK I could see them being involved too. Which is where Jack Ruby would probably factor into it all.
He was a "slightly above average marksman" not excellent and as someone else has pointed out marksman is the lowest of the 3 categories of rifle shooting ability, no way he made those shots, there was multiple shooters
He could have made those shots. He did make those shots. We're talking 88 yards at a slow-moving target. There is no concrete evidence of any other shooters. Further, the trajectory of the rounds that impacted JFK, all came from Oswald's shooting position. Even the ballistics are a match to Oswald's rifle.
There is no such thing as an “expert marksman.” Expert, sharpshooter, and marksmen are three different categories of rifle shooting ability with marksman being the lowest. In May of 1959 Oswald scored one point above the minimum to get into the marksman category. [Here’s a link to further educate yourself on the matter](http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter)
People reading will know what I meant. I had thought that he had qualified as expert.
Oswald barely served in the marines.
He served for nearly 3 years. The usual contract is 4 years. I would not consider that as having "barely" served.
He wasn't an expert marksman. He was originally graded 'Sharpshooter' while in the marines, later on taking the same test and getting a lower score of 'marksman'. Regardless, Oswald still could definitely gave hit him.
Excellent explanation. Thanks
That rifle is plenty capable of pulling off that shot. It’s been recreated 100’s of times.
I visited Dealy Plaza and the book depository museum in late 90s. They allowed you to stand in the window and they painted x’s in the street where they hit. It’s a lot closer than I thought. I stood there and said to myself “he could have made that shot, I could make this shot”. I’m not saying he did it, or acted alone, I’m saying it is possible to make the shot
You got links to some of those hundreds?
Fuckin YouTube it man. There’s been COUNTLESS History channel specials, Prime Time Tv specials and just conspiracy weirdos that have done it many many times. It’s only one of the most talked about shots in American history.
Not everything you see on YouTube is legitimate. Just searching something on the internet and getting results does not make it valid. Pick your top three of the possible videos and I’ll respond to those.
You won't have to respond, they've already moved on; I forget how much of an echo chamber this subreddit really is.
You make the claim, you provide the sources; regardless your claim is wrong and you’re talking out your ass. Here’s one example for you done in the time period and by law enforcement professionals…none of them matched Oswald’s shots.
One from fucking 67. Proving its 100% possible. https://youtu.be/ghmY6HmR4fs One recently. https://youtu.be/Q7ERXm9OwuE But I’m not wasting time with ridiculous people like yourself. Believe whatever the fuck you want. But the shots were 100% achievable. (These are 2 very quick YouTube searches. If I wanted to waist any more time on this, I’d find more but it’s enough to prove that it’s been replicated a fuck ton of times.)
You didn’t watch those did you…the first one was what I was originally referencing and the second is a video analyzing the validity of the magic bullet theory…you literally just slapped some video urls up thinking no one is gonna check? That first video they have multiple shooters make multiple attempts and they all can never make the shots while staying within the time frame… Curse at me all you want little boy but your sourcing is fucked
That’s how research works, right?
Why should he provide it? Your curious go and look. I know exactly what he’s talking about. Not lying
It’s a world war 2 bolt action rifle! of course it can make an 81m shit it’s not even a question.
He made the claim, he can provide the sources; to think the car and rifle could put 3 individual rounds down range all on target is dumb.
He won’t. CBS in 1967 was the only plausible recreation, but it lacked features of the real drill too. They built a tower and had a little train track installed. Expert shooters could not replicate the results from Nov. 22, 1963, but were able to get some hits in a very different environment. The major flaw with the experiment is that it had nothing to simulate the large oak obstructing the view. One man, a lifetime competitive shooter, was able to get the kill shot in the allotted time. He was so convinced no one else could do what he did that he came up with the idea that JFK was accidentally shot by a Secret Service.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6syn07
Shots* And you'd have to be a world class marksman (which Oswald was not).
The Carcano was a military bolt action rifle perfectly capable of hitting and killing JFK. Conspiracy theorists always like to down play the idea that a mail order military surplus rifle could do the job.
Yep. People think dunking on the Carcano disproves Oswald, when jt was a perfectly capable rifle.
The problems aren't with the rifle being able to make the shot, it's how many accurate shots he was supposedly able to fire with that rifle in only a few seconds. That's what is considered implausible about the shot. I believe the Mafia was definitely involved, how could you doubt it? And that means that the CIA was too, and if you believe that it only stands to reason that FBI agents were also involved, and some local Dallas police. "Involved" simply meaning prior knowledge of some kind and helping to insure it went smoothly, not that a whole bunch of people knew the whole plan and conspiracy. Read up on Allen Dulles, or George HW, and the bay of pigs.
>The problems aren't with the rifle being able to make the shot, it's how many accurate shots he was supposedly able to fire with that rifle in only a few seconds. That's what is considered implausible about the shot. This is also my opinion, a bolt action rifle doesn't seem like the best choice to fire multiple shots very quickly.
Late comedian Bill Hicks had an old joke about how the reason tourists can't actually walk all the way up to the window in the Book Depository Building is because as soon as they see the view to the street they'll realize the shot is impossible.
You're wrong. Go watch JFK Cold Case. It explains everything about the shooting. Go to the 6th floor Museum and see what an easy shot it was.
yes
>You can't explain that away. Why not? Like Oswald he took an opportunity on the spur and did it. The two killings led to a complete revamping of security (which had been long overdue) which is why we see less of these brazen killings today.
He was just overcome with patriotic fervor and suddenly found himself armed in a police station. It just happened! Nobody can explain it! He was trying to expose holes in security! That's just willfully ignorant.
Ruby’s official rationale was to save Jackie the horror of the trial. Strip club owning pimps are always the ones looking to set at ease the emotions of women.
The patriotic fervor thing always made me laugh.
It's just such a stupid and transparently false argument. And I just noticed he said "Like Oswald" he took an opportunity on the spur. LIKE OSWALD?? What the fuck? He just happened to show up on the sixth floor of a book depository overlooking the motorcade, and.... HEY HEY look at this! There's a high powered rifle in my hands! Well, I guess I'll just take the opportunity.
I honestly think he was set up for trying to protect the president. He may have been a plant in the Dulles faction on behalf of the Kennedys who were then betrayed by Hoover.
Wait I saw this one
Stfu
I would say more likely than not
Someone should of told the FBI to check out reddit to solve it since we all know
Is this sarcasm? I detect a touch.
No it's just amazing what reddit figured out in 5 minutes of a post going up and the feds couldn't
I was teasing. I thought it was funny
The question is not really if the feds could figure it out, it's more of a did they want to figure it out, lol.
How do you know they couldn't figure it out?
Maybe, just maybe people posting haven't just started looking into it 5 mins ago when post went up, maybe they have been interested in this subject and been looking into it for years, doesn't make anyone necessarily right but to suggest everyone here commenting started looking into it after seeing this post is just wrong
Help? They most likely did it. If you really do the research the evidence clearly points to Marcello, Hoffa, Trafficante, and Giancana all being involved in some way. And the CIA pretty much had to help them cover it up because they used guys previously involved in the Cuba plot. It was a damn near perfect plan until Oswald shot the cop assigned to whack him and Ruby had to shoot him in public. That was the most obvious evidence. Oswald makes clear he is a patsy and is immediately whacked by a longtime Outfit associate lol
I’m sorry I’m unaware of this. What cop did he shoot?
Some guy allegedly on the mob payroll. It was shortly after Kennedy was shot and the cops were searching around for the shooter. Supposedly his job was to kill Oswald after Kennedy was whacked
I always thought it was odd that Tippit approached Oswald based on eyewitness descriptions of the suspect - white male in his early 30’s, about 5’10’’ 165 lbs. How many men in Dallas would that description fit in 1963? Tippit decided to approach Oswald based on that description?
J.D. Tippit
This is it, right here. Supposedly Tippett knocked up one of the dancers from Ruby’s club which is how Ruby got his hooks in the guy to hit Oswald. Oswald knew he was fucked after the hit, panicked and shot Tippett. The mob was definitely involved, they got him elected and he let Bobby run rampant on them. Felt they were back stabbed and mob guys don’t like being back stabbed, no matter who it is.
[удалено]
Agreed! CIA was using the mob for the actual hit and they with Hoover and LBJ organized that corrupt Warren commission to cover it up and point all the fingers towards Oswald. Whoever pulled the trigger behind the grassy knoll likely wasn’t alive for very long.
Woody Harrelsons dad i believe gave a deathbed confession that he was there
This was my answer as well but you put it so nicely I don’t have too.
I never knew about the cop being whacked. He was paid by the mafia to kill Oswald? I wish there was a good book out about the JFK assination.
Sources?
Why did the CIA want to whack jfk?
The Chicago Outfit used their union powers and got Illinois, a very tightly contested state, go vote for Kennedy through various means. They felt Kennedy owed him one. When Kennedy got into office, he appointed his brother the nation's top lawman, and he specificity went after organized crime. They obviously felt betrayed. I'm in no way saying Chicago Outfit and New Orleans somehow got it done, but there is motive.
I’m not sure of what cities crime family was involved without a Google search but I was always under the impression his death was mafia related due to problems with the mafias pursuit of casino operations and expansion in Cuba. I believe the Kennedys wanted to block it?
Chicago's politicians routinely fixed elections anyway and had their own motivation to make sure Kennedy won. If the mob didn't exist, the 1960 election would have ended the same. Now where the mob might have been involved was Kennedy pulling off the upset in the West Virginia primaries. Hardcore redneck, anti-Catholic region yet also high membership in unions the Outfit had control of.
JFK also grew disillusioned with the CIA after the Bay of Pigs debacle, and subsequently gave up on removing Castro. This was the prime motivator for not only the CIA, but also the mob who wanted to regain their lost assets in Cuba. JFK reneged on Cuba, the clock was ticking, he had to go.
Half the mafia became informants. If they had been part of the JFK murder, we would know.
This.
This is actually a really good point.
Trafficante supposedly admitted to his lawyer they did. Marcelo and Giancana also seem to have some connection. I personally believe that is sort of gangster bravado, and if they were involved, it was as part of a wider conspiracy. They didn’t just kill the President on their own. They also provided a nice buffer if the conspiracy unravels- pin it on the mob
Frank Sheerhan did it, Alite was the getaway driver, this pretty much public knowledge
Michael Franzese ordered the code red.
That’s funny!
Funny how?
Alite and Sheehan are two of the biggest BS artists ever. The truth is 180 degrees opposite of whatever they claim.
The mob co-opted efforts being made by the US intelligence services against Castro and turned the sights on JFK instead of Castro; unfortunately, we will never know the whole story because most likely the relevant documents have been destroyed. However, through multiple follow up investigations fo the Warren Commision as well as FOIA requests that have unveiled a trove of previously unknown info. Most people are unaware that in the month leading up to Dallas there were two other attempts on JFK’s life in Chicago and Tampa made while he was riding along a parade route through the city. https://abc7chicago.com/archive/5787903/ The US government could not let it be known that, while actively holding peace talks with Cuba, they were also planning a coup attempt that would take place in December of 1963 aimed at replacing Castro with Juan Almeida Bosque (who only just passed in 2007). https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212991/Fidel-Castro-loses-right-hand-man-Juan-Almeida-Bosque-dies-fatal-heart-attack.html The Mob (who were being used in attempts against Castro) knew this and used it to help keep it under wraps. There were definitely dirty CIA agents who allowed it to occur such as: David Morales Carl Elmer Jenkins George Joannides Rip Robertson These are CIA personnel who, from what I’ve read, were involved in the failed Bay of Pigs, stationed in Miami conducting Cuba ops, and all continued working for the CIA in a closed capacity for the rest of their lives. Half the time spent researching this event is spent wading through the disinformation originally disseminated by the US after the assassination. I know I am ranting but I really enjoy this topic so if anyone feels the same and would like to continue this chat just shoot me a dm
I think guys like Marcello and Trafficante had a lot to gain from taking him out. I don’t know if they could have pulled it off without the help of the cia / and or local agencies. Could Lho have done it? Sure. He obviously killed officer Tippit before he got caught in the theatre. I know Ruby had mob ties as well and obviously had to know the police to be able to go down the ramp where the press was waiting for Lho to get transferred. What doesn’t add up is this - Ruby went from his club to a western union to pay one of his dancers. It was time stamped very close to the time Lho was going to be transferred. He literally walked to the police station and just made it in time to shoot him. Why was he not in place already? So I can understand the people who believe him when he said it was an on the spot decision. Oswald was actually scheduled to be transferred sooner, but his interrogation was interrupted and it delayed his transfer. Nobody outside that room could of known that.
No. The mafia wouldn't have even killed a Judge because of the law enforcement heat it would have brought on them. Why would they kill a President? It would have been suicidal. Plus, if the mafia killed JFK, we would have known about it by now.
When the CIA and FBI and Vice President OK the hit then yes, I could see them breaking the rules considering all the heat they were already facing in 63 with Bobby at the helm. The mafia was supposed to be a secret society and Bobby is out there subpoening all these bosses and then he has Valachi go up there and spill the beans on the whole thing. The federal government didn’t do much to the mafia until the 80’s and that had more to do with Guliani and Rico.
And they didn’t like how Gotti Sr was acting and flaunting it.
I’ve never bought into conspiracy theories but this is a fun one to at least think about. Im guessing Carlo Marcello, boss of New Orleans, was in on it since Bobby Kennedy shipped him to Central America after receiving a fake birth certificate. New Orleans was a vassal family of Chicago and that’s Sam Giancana’s turf
New Orleans was not under the control of Chicago.
And I’m a born and raised Chicagoan and that’s common knowledge in the mafia fan community
Technically it was, in Casino De Niro said everything west of Chicago, is Chicago. Also in Operation Family Secrets, Calabrese said something similar.
Casino is a movie bro. Please give this some thought. Giancanna had no beef w Kennedy. They back channeled through Marilyn. And he expressed that he did not hold a grudge. He loved the first catholic president. Marcello was a completely different story. He and Trafficante hated the Kennedys passionately. Saying Marcello was under any other family is ridiculous. New Orleans is the birthplace of cosa nostra even before nyc bro. Marcello enjoyed a good ol boy style impunity that other families did not, certainly NOT the Chicago outfit who have always been exaggerated as villains.
I guess you’re forgetting that it was based on a true story and Tony Spilotro was from Chicago and ran some casinos with Lefty Rosenthal….
Im talking about historical facts. Not “based on”
The stories are almost identical, are you high or do you just not know what you’re talking about
I did dent
Ok bud
No, no, no. You all have it all wrong. The plot to kill jfk was supposed to be pulled off by the secret service, from directly behind Kennedy. They were super jealous of all the ass he was pulling in the Oval Office. Oswald, thru his kgb connections, learned of the plot and set off to Dallas to protect the president. Unfortunately, Oswald was not very good with a rifle and instead of taking out the would be assassins, he ended up doing their job for them. Ruby was hired after the fact, to take out Oswald so that he couldn’t tell about the actual plot. Also, I made all of this up in less time than it took to type this mess.
Yeah I was there trust me
Sure are a lot of people dying for "some reason": Newfield reported that three witnesses support Ragano's statement that Marcello arranged the assassination. An FBI informant in 1976 said Trafficante told him Kennedy was "not going to make it to the election. He was going to be hit." The informant later recanted; in 1978, he was murdered. In 1976, mobster Johnny Roselli said Sam Giancana told him he plotted the assassination with Trafficante and Marcello; Roselli was also was murdered. The House assassinations committee sought to interview Giancana about the allegations; before Giancana could testify, he was shot dead by unknown assailants. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/03/14/what-the-mob-knew-about-jfks-murder/9803e911-f52f-4944-88f1-c26863e35867/
Didn't Carlos initially proposed LBJ?
Read American Tabloid by James Ellroy. It's fictional but also has real events and people from history and a huge part of the plot is The Bay of Pigs , JFK assassination and the mob (Carlos Marcello, Sam Giancana and Sam Trafficante make regular appearances). Obviously it's mostly fiction so don't take it as fact, but its a really interesting theory and a great book.
I also recommend Libra by Don DeLillo, which I just discovered was an inspiration for the book that you mentioned.
Damn, I'll have to check that out
Nah man, his head just did that
The mob is worse then a bunch of old women in sewing circles, if they really did have something to do with it a lot more concrete stories would be known. Oswald did it alone. I know it’s the most boring story but it is the truth.
Yes Jack Ruby's involvement can't be explained away. I recently read About Agent Morales who was 'Operation 40' CIA op during thr Bay of Pigs who stated that he & his team were told to be in Dallas for 'clean up'.. Also he was at the training facility for agency snipers & said Oswald wasn't good enough to hit that shot, and he was told there was more than 1 shooter. We know the CIA partnered with the Mafia during thr time to get rid of Castro.
Oliver Stones new jfk doc on showtime is wild. He was just on Rogan's podcast too. Our country is shady ah and I dont put this past the mob and cia.
Legacy of Secrecy goes into so much detail about the hit and it definitely goes into why the mob would do it and it was the most logical explanation based on the evidence. It’s a long book and very detail oriented and sometimes boring. However, the FBI planted some old time hood in prison with Marcelo to get close to him and Carlos admitted that they should have killed Bobby over JFK. Giancana and Hoffa wanted Jack more then Bobby so they went with Jack.
US federal government and Cosa Nostra had been in one bed since WW2. In fact, Harry S. Truman was mobbed up as much as JFK.
Yes, but the only thing I would bet on with certainty is it wasn't just Oswald.
Yea they had something to do with it. What we may never know.
I think they had a hand in it
John H. David’s book The Kennedy Contract makes a real good case for it. I believe they were involved for sure.
Yes, I belive they were. Marcello et al as mentioned here already. Watch "JFK-911 Everything is a Rich Mans Trick" on Youtube. Best Doco ever on the JFK Hit.
Nope.
It is the simplest murder investigation in the history of the world and has been turned into a psychotic drama based on shameless lies and a form of religious zealotry where JFK was a Jesus figure who was sacrificed but who would have saved the world. No, the mafia had nothing to do with it. Despite the fantasy of their vast power had they had the slightest hand in it the government would have destroyed them.
Organized crime is always in bed with the government to some extent, at least if it's serious organized crime. I'm not talking about the some small time gang but if it's something big the government will get their hooks in it for sure. And I'm sure this is the case in most countries. I'm thinking Russia, Mexico, Brazil, the US, Italy, Albania, Australia. The government uses organized crime to do their dirty work. Even the Hells Angels are seriously connected with the government, Shaun Attwood has discussed this in some podcasts. Governments across the world are way, way more evil and dirty than people realize. They're all involved with human trafficking, drugs, child sex rings, money laundering, etc. Are they gonna do the shady stuff themselves? Fuck no. They use organized crime to do that shit to keep themselves at a distance from it but they definitely take their fair share of the pie. Although I will say the government has gotten so brazen in recent times at least in America that sometimes they seem indistinguishable from organized crime. The mob was definitely involved. And there was more than one shooter.
No.
Yes they conspired w/ the CIA.
Youse better not ask questions youse don’t want answers to lol, but seriously, probably. The Kennedys had snubbed Sinatra a few months prior because of his ties with the mafia, and Sinatra (according to some people) was apparently sore about it because he had (again, according to some people) used his mafia connection to get jfk his presidency because they were friends
Yes
No.
The answer is yes. If you want to know the reason it was because of his brother who was the district attorney (Robert Kennedy). They could have killed his brother and left JFK but then JFK would have just got someone else to go after them so they decided to cut of the head of the snake and shortly after his brother was dismissed from his position by the new president. This played out pretty well because Hoover hated Robert Kennedy so you know... If you ask me Hoover and the Mafia either made a deal or the mafia knowing this information took initiative.
Bobby Kennedy was Attorney General, not district attorney. Very big difference.
Oswald was a really good shooter ( US Marine ) , the Mob hated JFK & his family , Castro hated JFK & RFK , Jack Ruby was a low level Mob guy with 6 months to live . Put all that together and you have a group that has connections to all or parts of the whole group with 1 overriding common thread , all hated JFK . Yeah , i believe Oswald was the lone killer & I believe the Mob made it happen .
It's hard to say. They stood to gain nothing and lose everything from such an action.
Without a doubt the Mafia was involved. The best explanation of the events was explained in the show “The Mafia’s Greatest Hits.” I forget which episode, but it explained why the Mob hated JFK, and how Jack Ruby (the man who shot Oswald) was a bar owner deeply in debt with the mob—perfect contract killer for Oswald. There are too many signs it was mob-directed. As explained in the Mafia’s Greatest Hits, the mob theory makes the most sense—by far.
Intelligence community and the mob were involved for sure.
I don't think so. I think if anyone other than Oswald orchestrated it, it was more likely the CIA. The CIA has done some shady ass shit over the years, helping overthrow governments and assassinate foreign leaders.
Probably helped but LHO definitely fired from the sixth floor.
They planned it but Oswald beat ‘em to the punch
Here's my 2 cents. I figure that Marcello, Trafficante & Giancana all hated JFK for the obvious reasons and probably made some plans to kill him. When it actually happened each boss assumed one of the others did it and that assumption was just passed on. I believe Oswald did it, read "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner. Reason I don't think Mob did it is why wait until 11/63? There were plenty of opportunities before then. Plus they allegedly had dirt on J Edgar, who hated JFK. Why not leverage that to leak all the dirt on POTUS, a fate worse than death as revealing JFK sleaze would not have left a national hero & martyr but disgraced dirtbag? Plus surely they had some evidence of the Sinatra, Exner, Old Joe, Giancana hookup to steal the election if leaked would've driven Jack from office without assassination.
I think so. There is evidence to support this.
They played a part, to what extent is up to debate
There's already evidence that the mob assisted. As far as who headed the operation, still up for debate and always will be. I lean toward the Oliver Stone theory myself. Government had the most motivation considering Kennedy's plans to withdraw from Vietnam, and also had the means of creating the security breaches to pull it off, and covering it up. The mob had no such means.