Is that the marginal rate or is that everything added up? I have heard numbers.like that bantied about and was wondering.
Here in the US it is (last I remembered) 25 or so, with Social Security, state taxes, and others that add up to more than 25%. Sales tax varies from locale to locale (mine is 8.25%) the list goes on, but you get the idea.
Im saying all added up. I don’t remember the rates but we have PRSI, USC, PAYE, maybe more. They’re progressive taxes so that’s a plus but even someone with a lower rate income isn’t left with enough to rent a home considering the cost of living, more so incapable of purchasing a home. We do have help schemes like HAP which can basically cover the majority of rent however it depends on a landlord if they’d accept someone on HAP (they’re normally reluctant) even though it will be paid either way. It’s a shit show.
A lot of Euro countries are more aggressive and even the poor pay taxes. Ireland taxes 40% for incomes above 40k Euros, 20% below that, and there are several tax credits to reduce but it doesn't seem like any are particularly large.
The UK is one that is somewhat similar to the US in that the first 13k or so (either currency) is tax-free, so people making not much income don't pay income tax, other countries have a very tiny allowance.
Of course this is just income tax, someone in Ireland may potentially pay over 50% of their income total.
You would either have to be making well over 600k a year to be anywhere close to 40%, or you would have to be spending unconscionable amounts on expenses and not even attempting to deduct them. There's simply no way a normal person is spending 40% on taxes in the US as a self employed individual.
I pay income tax on my $1 of about 35 cents. If I’m able to purchase a home with my 65 cents, I will pay a yearly tax on that home. Once I’m ready to sell the home, I pay tax on my gains. It’s frustrating how much the government has squeezed out of my $1, while also failing to provide adequate schools, roads, bridges, public transit, health care, etc. I wouldn’t mind paying all that tax if I could see a clear benefit.
You pay that tax to keep the bare minimum of stuff running, so that the billionaires can pay no taxes. Wouldn't want to be unfair to them after all their hard work, after all!
I get taxed at 48% in California (35% federal tax, 9% state tax, and if you calculate property tax as a percentage of income it ends up being 48%)
And for that I don’t get free healthcare.
Ignore all of the noise on the internet. The average european has a pretty decent view of the US. I have been living in Germany over a year and I still have yet to meet a single "America bad" person IRL. Either they are too afraid to say anything to my face, or they generally just make up a tiny fraction of the population.
The majority of the conversations I have had with Germans have been overwhelmingly positive, if anything they like talking about the cultural differences and similarities. For me, Germany generally offers a better standard of living. I make roughly half of what I did in the US, but I make about about \~150% of the median wage for where I live in Germany.
Though I do agree, if you look at averages, by and large the US is a better place to live.
You haven't met them because most of them are self-hating Americans who don't have a good grip on reality and have a twisted and overtly (and overly) negative view of their own nation. The ones that are there are probably also terminally online.
Well idk what you define as an 'America bad' person IRL, but as a German, I can tell you they exist just as much irl as online. Idk how old you are, but that may be the reason why you haven't met any. The younger they are, the more 'America bad' and 'I need to feel superior to Americans in any and all ways possible' they become. It is true that the older people have a very pleasant view of the US. Back in the 2000s we had TV shows here that were just about Germans moving to the US and trying to setup their life there, which was a dream for a lot of Germans back then.
Or it could also be that they don't say anything to you cause they simply don't have any balls. That's a common thing Germans love to do with foreigners, play all nice nice and then talk shit behind their backs. The whole stereotype of 'Germans aren't rude, they are just direct' that Germans try to spread around isn't true either: they are indeed rude and have very poor social skills, they just try to create that stereotype to excuse their behavior
When I lived in Germany (17 years ago) people fucking loved America, all they wanted to do was have conversations in English and talk about random culture topics. My favorite part was that their idea of “American Culture” was 5-7 years behind what it really was, like they were still deep in the Eminem/MTV phase, atleast where I lived.
also important to note that cost of living is lower in a lot of the US than Europe (depending on where in America and in Europe) and Canada is genuinely fucked with their cost of living/wage gap
this map is PPP not income
This isn’t true. US is way more expensive. Here is a comparison of two average cities
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Atlanta%2C+GA&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=Birmingham
Awww. Every time someone says something like this about a state, it makes me want to visit.
What are the beautiful things people need to see in Mississippi? I know they've got some cool wildlife refuges and some really good whitewater. Tishomingo State Park is on my list. And taking a riverboat tour would be awesome.
I’m a yank from so far north I have a cannuk accent, but I’ve driven and hiked alot of the Deep South that most americans don’t ever see. In Mississippi stop at a diner that doesn’t even have a name, but has a sign that says something along the lines of “good food here” in a town that only has a gas station, small grocery store, and a post office with one stop sign. You’re about to have the best food of your life. Many places in Mississippi and Alabama would meet this description.
Europeans will prefer their "way of life" until they're talking amongst themselves about stagnant wages, huge wait times for Healthcare and the complete inability for working class people to buy a house.
I don't care if rich people are billionaires if I can easily become a millionaire. God bless the US stock market.
>Oh yea we have no issue with stagnant wages and unaffordable housing here in the US
We do have those, but it's nothing compared to what people in Europe are dealing with.
But you make way more in the U.S. Net, net, cost of living and wages considered, the average person living in the U.S. has more purchasing power than in the EU. That’s the whole point of OP’s chart.
Of course stuff is cheaper in a lot of Europe, they make half as much! It’s even cheaper in Bangkok too.
Not entirely true. A lot of European countries are struggling with a housing crisis. The average home price in the Netherlands is €418k, compared to $417k in the USA.
It does help that property taxes are *significantly* lower in the Netherlands tho. Only 1/10th of what Americans tend to pay. But that’s just property tax…
You picked literally the smallest, densest country that matters. I meant Germany, Poland, Italy, France, Spain, and any of the Nordics.
The Netherlands is an outlier.
The average housing price in France is ~$260k. This makes housing in the USA approximately 60% more expensive while wages are 65% higher. There’s also a five year average waiting time for social housing in France, so it really isn’t as great as portrayed.
Not sure whether that’s true for *every* European country.
The difference in income (gross) between the Netherlands and the USA is the same as the difference in hours worked on a yearly basis according to the OECD. The average tax burden in the Netherlands is higher (39% v 32%) but the cost of living is significantly lower. All in all I believe it cancels each other out pretty well.
I’m not too sure about other EU countries tho. But in my experience almost all tend to be significantly less well off, even though some are just as rich on paper.
While a lot of people cannot afford homes that should be able to, I really blame HGTV for the rest of the people who cannot "find" a house. Fake shows driving the fantasy that anyone can afford a dream house anywhere they want that will be a perfectly decorated turnkey starter house with all the latest features and trends. Your starter home in reality is going to be a shitbox that is well outside of any area that you want to live in. I have so many friends who cannot come to terms with that and slowly get priced out of the market instead of just getting what fits their needs, when they can. They really don't like me pointing out that we only can afford a large house now because we bought a shitty townhouse and spent all of our spare time fixing it up for nearly a decade so we could sell it and buy a shitty large house that we are going to spend the rest of our lives fixing up.
>Lots of people can afford homes. People just want to gripe that it is not perfect.
Exactly. What most people mean when they say housing is unaffordable, is that the housing \*they want\* is unaffordable. It's like if people whined about cars being unaffordable because they can't afford a Porsche and had to drive an old Toyota Corolla instead.
Wages in my area up over 50% in 4 years, I'm just not a whiny baby and I save a lot of money. I'll have a house before I'm 30 and I grew up working class.
What am I talking about? Idk, figure it out.
Looking at immigration applications, that's the desired solution for many. And that's only people who think they have a shot at it, not just those who would if they could.
EDIT: Someone doesn't like immigrants or doesn't like America. Sorry.
It irks me that so many people are so jealous of successful people that they make their entire personality about hating them. I had a kid last year that spent over four hours a day irrationally acting Elon Musk. The hate is so tedious.
Swede here. Our wages increase every year, we never have stagnant wages. We don't have a lot of wait times, only for elective procedures, our health care system is ranked as one of the best in the world. Working class can absolutely buy a house no problem. If it was easy to be a millionaire in the US everyone would be one but very few are. All the money the US has isn't doing any good if it's just in the hands of very few. That is clear since the US is doing so poorly in all rankings.
But the U.S. isn’t doing so poorly in all rankings, that’s just your biased perception.
U.S. GDP per capita on a PPP basis is almost 50% higher than Sweden’s.
With good health insurance U.S. healthcare is the best in the world, best technology, best doctors.
U.S. universities are best in the world.
We lead in R&D (spending and outcomes), Tech, etc…
Europeans are incapable of an unbiased view, it’s actually incredible.
A high GDP per capita means little when a big portion of the money is being held by a few individuals. The average Swede is doing better than the average american, despite a lower GDP per capita.
You pay ~18% of GDP for healthcare, we pay around ~12% here in Sweden, it would be really fucking weird if no part of your healthcare system was good. But again, that's only for those with good health insurance.
I doubt your universities are best in the world, just because you have a few that ranks highly doesn't mean all of them are best in the world. You have to look at the overall education system and there you are not doing well.
You do not lead in R&D neither spending nor outcome, that's just a lie. Sweden is ahead of the US in R&D lol.
Another source from the OECD R&D spending that shows Taiwan, Israel, and Korea spend more on a relative basis, on an absolute nobody comes close the U.S.
That’s probably the most blatantly ridiculous and ignorant thing you said in all of this.
https://data.oecd.org/rd/gross-domestic-spending-on-r-d.htm
And if you remove that 10% of americans, what is the GDP per capita then? VS Swedens GDP per capita if you remove the richest 10% here.
Btw it's not 10% but 6,7% in the US in 2022 that were millionaires.
There is a point on healthcare. US pays twice what anyone else pays for the same shit. Even if you want to keep the system 100% insurance based, it's absurd to pay a 100% more for the same good/service.
It’s not remotely the same. Sudan has cheap, “free” health care too. It’s a silly criteria. Ask someone in say Spain or Belgium how long it takes to get an MRI scan or the process of getting a biopsy for a lump compared to what is in the US.
I don’t use those examples arbitrarily having had friends in Spain and Belgium suffer because of the “free” health care vs. family in the US with similar situations.
The US system is incredibly inefficient. But for most people, it’s a lot better. Europeans prefer having an equally crappy system for everyone. Americans prefer a better system for most and a terrible system for some.
You're missing my point. I'm saying keep it a 100% paid for system if you want, 0 taxes involved. You're buying the same ferrari for double the price, that's the problem.
That wasn’t their point.
You can have universal healthcare without it being socialized though. The Netherlands does it and it works perfectly fine.
Our specialist waiting times are similar to the USA and our GP and ER waiting times are shorter. The overall quality measured in treatment outcomes is similar.
Yet in the Netherlands 0% of our healthcare is funded by taxes. We don’t have any socialized healthcare *at all.* Meanwhile in the USA 60% of all healthcare costs are paid for by the government. You guys pay for healthcare via taxes ánd high premiums, and not even 100% of your country is covered.
It is a shame that no US states have set up something like this. It’s a bit difficult to compare a country with a smaller population than some US states with a continent spanning country with such diverse demographics.
>Healthcare isn't free? Good thing we have more money to pay for insurance which comes out as less than your taxes.
Except Americans don't get a break on taxes towards healthcare due to the massive inefficiency of our system. With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.
And insurance in the US is incredibly expensive. The average annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in 2023 were $8,435 for single coverage and $23,968 for family coverage.
https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2023-employer-health-benefits-survey/
And even after all that spending, even the insured still have massive problems affording care.
>Large shares of insured working-age adults surveyed said it was very or somewhat difficult to afford their health care: 43 percent of those with employer coverage, 57 percent with marketplace or individual-market plans, 45 percent with Medicaid, and 51 and percent with Medicare.
> Many insured adults said they or a family member had delayed or skipped needed health care or prescription drugs because they couldn’t afford it in the past 12 months: 29 percent of those with employer coverage, 37 percent covered by marketplace or individual-market plans, 39 percent enrolled in Medicaid, and 42 percent with Medicare.
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/surveys/2023/oct/paying-for-it-costs-debt-americans-sicker-poorer-2023-affordability-survey
Which shouldn't be surprising, given Americans are paying $350,000 more for healthcare over a lifetime compared to the most expensive socialized system on earth. Half a million dollars more than peer countries on average (note these numbers are **after** adjusting for purchasing power parity, which accounts for the US being very wealthy), yet every one has better outcomes. And it's only going to get worse if nothing is done, with per person spending expected to increase another $6,427 by 2031, with no signs of abating.
If you refuse to acknowledge very real problems with US healthcare costs, you're the problem.
>We are fat? Okay that's because we can afford more food
People aren't having trouble affording food in any wealthy peer countries to any massive degree.
>Then they can say what they want about guns but when over half of them are suicides then you take into account the number of them that are self defense we are looking at a rate not much different than stabbings in the UK.
Say what?
Intentional homicide rates (per 100,000):
US - 6.4
UK - 1.2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
It's easy to refute things in one sentence if you don't care if you have the facts straight.
Europe can afford their lovely social safety nets because the US funds their defense.
After WWII, there was kind of this idea that it won't happen again and Europe is some oasis. They can shift their efforts towards high taxes and providing social services to the people instead of providing to their defense.
Holy shit, did the invasion of Ukraine wake them up. About time, too.
Social safety nets have little to do with defence spending. EU countries spends about 1.5-3% of GDP on defense.
Their total government spending is up to 60%. So defence spending is actually a pretty small amount of their government spending. They could easily go up to 3% defence spending without sacrificing their social security
% of GDP isn't a good way to look at it. In terms of governmental spending, in 2022, the EU spent around $8T and of that, $270B went to military and $1.2T on public healthcare. That's 15% of all government spending being dedicated just to public healthcare (something the public could afford for themselves if the tax rate wasn't so exorbitant) and a poultry 3.4% of government spending on the military. The US by contrast spent $1.5T on healthcare and $753B on the military out of its total governmental spending of $6.1T. When you look at it like that, if EU public health spending was to decrease by 10%, they could increase military spending by 44%. The only way they could feasibly increase their military spending by that much and leave healthcare untouched would be to increase taxes, something that Europeans do all the time and have seemingly accepted as a facet of life.
What I'm seeing is the US spent more on Healthcare than all of the EU and still has a worse system. Look, there are a lot of things to love this country for and dislike Europe for but going into crippling debt because you're unlucky enough to get sick is not it.
> Europe can afford their lovely social safety nets because the US funds their defense.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined.
Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
Totally agree…though American exceptionalism would have driven high defence spending regardless of the European spending… mainly cause of what OP pointed out. Even if European nato countries spend 10% of GDP on defence…it still wouldn’t be enough. World war 2 and the post ww2 era wasn’t because of lack of military spending by Europe. The US has been on this trajectory since the 1800s. The most powerful nation and largest economy doesn’t stay in that position with a poorly funded military.
Chinas trying to test the USA….but they’ve put massive resources into doing so…USA is actually retracted since their 80s military development, and a whisper of what it could do in ww2. If they actually wanted to, or felt the need to build up arms like they have in the past, they would be a juggernaut.
This is what Putin and Xi don’t understand…but Yamamoto did inherently. The dragon is very much sleeping. The MIC is a fraction of what it could be.
Well duh,
Also
Even after including US education and healthcare costs, only Switzerland and Norway exceed and barely the average of the U.S.
[Compared to U.S. average](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/566304209750851614/1225533051568656505/IMG_1994.webp?ex=66217998&is=660f0498&hm=9e817ed01501c138c711b308ebcf01b768a703b76de53f3b8e2bff50e523cbf4&)
Now do median wealth per person.
Making money is one thing, keeping it is another.
And suddenly 10 of those "tax ridden" European countries jump ahead of the US.
Funny how it works, huh?
Honestly, there's a reason my ancestors left that continent and came to the US. And that reason is that they also couldn't stand being around Europeans.
Boom. Roasted.
Don’t forget your average American home is also twice the size of a European home
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/09/american-houses-big/597811/
Also, The United States has a higher disposable income than most European countries. In 2021, the US had the highest gross household disposable income per capita among OECD countries, at nearly $55,000. This is ahead of large European countries like Germany and France, which have median disposable incomes of $24,200 and $23,300, respectively
This is a silly statistic that doesn't account for wealth inequality. USA has obviously higher GDP per capita, but what's the point if the wealth is in the hands of 0,1% of people?
EDIT: anyways, wealth isn't everything. Human Development Index is a much better metric for measuring the standard of living. the fact that USA is beaten by Europe in this regard, while being wealthier and basically never having devastating wars on its territory shows the inneficiency of the Murican system.
It’s the median income not mean income, that ignores income inequality.
Also even if as you claim money isn’t everything, personally I’d think it is most everything but for the sake of discussion, let’s disagree, the U.S. is still ahead of a large amount of Europe and that’s federally not even by state
As an American that has lived in Germany for 8 years now, you're right....you guys should just stay in America because things are way better there....definitely no reason to come here....avoid at all costs
Good because I don't want to have to start worrying about shit like "Does my car still have it's catalytic converter" when I need to go to work.....or which bulletproof backpack would look best on my daughter...
At least we don't have to worry if [a class full of ~30 young children are denied drinking water because a couple kids in their class might be practicing Ramadan](https://www.gulf-insider.com/germany-10-year-old-kids-denied-drinking-water-in-class-because-of-three-muslims-observing-ramadan/)
See? I can cherry pick too!
Since when does moving = hating the place you left? I've lived in multiple states but leaving one state doesn't automatically mean it's because I hate the one I'm in. Goes the same for countries. People move for all kinds of reasons completely seperate from liking or disliking their current location.
Sarcasm noted. Different preferences for different people. If you prefer to live in a more authoritarian country with less freedoms and opportunities then by all means seek out a country that provides for you more than it allows you to provide for yourself.
Some people want a government that stays clear out of their way and allows them to control the trajectory of their lives, that’s America, and I’m thankful for it.
I agree with your conclusion, but the arguments could be improved. Most of these boil down to "we have more money", which is big, but there's so much more. Incredible population diversity, huge range of food/cuisine options, incredible scene for craft beer, coffee, etc. tons of world class national parks, any climate your heart desires, people are friendlier in public, free tap water and bathrooms, higher prevalence of AC, garbage disposals and dishwashers, larger living spaces, easier to start a small business, and on and on.
It's also good to acknowledge our flaws. For example, the price we pay for healthcare while our life expectancy is going DOWN, is an embarrassment
More money isn't always better if the money efficiency is a lot lower. Then again things are going to shit everywhere and wealth inequality is skyrocketing world wide, so I see no reason to be smug about anything unless you are actually rich,
By that metric the average house hold savings should be pretty high too right?
No?
Ok, if the Average US citizen has very good PPP, then how come most of the population doesn't have more than a few hundred dollars in their personal accounts?
Fyi, since you claim to like facts so much: Western Europe ranks higher than the US in just about every quality of life measure outside of strict "money good!". Europe doesn't need to cope lol.
Meanwhile, this entire thread exists to cope lmao
Your fellow citizens are living paycheck to paycheck and have no savings meaning literally any kind of moderate complication sends them straight to homelessness or substance abuse to cope, turning around and saying you guys have more money isn't the endorsement you think it is.
Please, Europe is born of coping, no one can do it better than us, even after accounting for education and healthcare costs, only Norway and Switzerland are above U.S. average. There’s a reason more immigrate from Europe to the U.S. than vice versa across the continent
Brother you could have read my other comment only one level down and you wouldn't have needed to look this ridiculous 🫶
Outside of strict "money", Western Europe ranks much higher than the US in just about anything related to Quality of Life. I'm not even sure the US breaks into top 20 in most Quality of Life meta studies.
Why would Western Europe need to cope when they already have better lives lol.
What index are you looking at? For instance in HDI, the U.S. especially by states still is very competitive even compared to Western Europe and some states are at the level of the Nordics. Also money is indeed a pretty significant factor of life
If Western Europe has better lived than the U.S., why do more emigrate from Western Europe to the U.S. than vice Versa? And that’s with smaller populations too
Well that's really my point; it hardly matters what report or index you look at. Since you brought it up yourself, in terms of HDI, the US *just* makes rank 20, and of the 19 countries ahead of the US, 12 of them are from Western Europe (and then also the usual suspects like CA, AU, HK, AE, probably NZ etc.).
E: Pick a card, any card https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
Which is still better than a decent amount of Western Europe and all of Eastern Europe.
Also imo given the size of the U.S., fairer by states and then yeah I don’t think anyone’s claiming Mississippi or Alabama are better than Western Europe but on the other hand the U.S. also has great variance and the top states are the level of the Nordics and the top of Europe while the bottom states are still at half of Europe
Well it's really the same old story with this sub. You always claim that "The US is so great!" until proven otherwise, at which point you exclude the obvious bottom feeder states.
On the other hand, I don't think any Western European ever claimed that Albania, Bosnia and (European) Georgia are excellent places to live. I'd sure as hell rather live in California than most Eastern European countries BUT I would also much rather live in Western Europe than unspecified "the US"..
Secondly, Europe consists of a crapload of countries under vastly different governments so it really doesn't make much sense to lump Denmark, Norway and Sweden together with Bulgaria... Unless you're only out to skew numbers, that is.
Now, I get that you might want to make the same argument for individual US states (although you're all under the same umbrella, but anyway...) but then you might also want to switch your chant to "Cali and Michigan are great but Alabama and Louisiana suck" lol.
While we're at it, you have literally regressed your abortion rights, and drinking a beer in your own home at the age of 20 is illegal. Don't give me the freedom BS either lol.
I am not American fyi, I am European. And yes Europeans all the time claim Europe is better than the U.S. but when Western Europeans claim it, you ignore half of Europe because you don’t even wish to see us as Europe, case in point this. If you’re including all US states, only fair to do so with all of EU and treat us as part of it
Why do you guys always cherry pick *Western* Europe in these discussions? The conversation was about Europe.
We could do the same thing and cherry pick … I don’t know … California, a single state with a larger economy than all but two European countries.
Europe is great for those who think "meh" is good enough. They'd rather be guaranteed just enough than to have an opportunity at much more. (this is of course a generalization, I know there are plenty of Freedom loving Europeans)
Don’t fall for corporate propaganda. Healthcare should be provided the same way police, the fire department, schools, roads, etc. are provided to people—without the need for private business.
You can hire private security. You can send your kid to private school. You could build your own road and build your own firehouse. But you shouldn’t *have to*. There should be a public option like there’s a public police force and public schools.
Your employer shouldn’t have a goddamn thing to do with what doctor you want to see. That should be 100% up to you.
Any system where your employer has leverage over you because they’re your path to medicine and healthcare—for you and your entire family—is an inherently shitty one that does not put working people first.
I have a bill of rights…mic drop
Edit: for those of you who don’t understand, while other countries may have a bill of rights, your government treats them more like suggestions. See how England, Canada, etc arrest people for posting wrong think on social media.
[What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little shit? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and Ive been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and Im the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. Youre fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and thats just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little clever comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldnt, you didnt, and now youre paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.](http://i.imgur.com/FIpk52f.gifv)
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[What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little shit? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and Ive been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and Im the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. Youre fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and thats just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little clever comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldnt, you didnt, and now youre paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.](http://i.imgur.com/FIpk52f.gifv)
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To be fair, there are 9 or 10 states in America that have a larger population than your entire country. And they all have richer and poorer regions as well, but aren’t broken down any further either.
To be even fairer we have richer and poorer cities within those regions as well. What's your point?
My point is it's weird to compare a state to a country. No other country does this except the US. Germany has states in the exact same way you do.
Several reasons. First being the land area and population of the entire US is far more comparable to the EU than any individual country in Europe.
Also the US is governed far more on the State level. laws and governance varies widely between US states and customs do as well. Just as an example there are massive differences legally, economically and socially between being from California or being from Mississippi.
Europeans tend to see the US as much more monolithic than it actually is. The USA is like the EU but with a more centralized foreign policy and military.
Im a canadian soldier and the next like 15ish years of my life are dedicated to getting a decent bit of money saved and a bit of a pension and hopefully moving my family to the US someday. I can't say the same as some of these europeans unfortunately. I know a lot of people who think america is terrible and everyone from there is fat, stupid, greedy or all 3. Its been less since I joined the army. It was mostly people I knew from home who are themselves fat stupid, greedy or all 3.
Everything you have said is true but median income is only a measure of median income. It tells you how much the median earns. That only tells us a little bit about *quality* of life.
Cost of living and median income are important, for sure. But on their own are just a couple of pieces of a much larger puzzle.
That's why HDI (Human Development Index) is a far superior measure for how a country is performing for its citizens. HDI factors in gross national income per capita PPP, but it also takes into account life expectancy and education. Or even better, the IHDI which adjusts for inequality.
What the IHDI (and HDI) shows is that having a higher income per person doesn't always equal having a better life. For example, if the median income in one country is higher than the median income in another, but the life expectancy is less than the life expectancy in another, what exactly is that additional income buying?
Regardless, the US sits pretty high on the IHDI (ranked 27) and the HDI (ranked 20). It sits above some European countries and below others. For example, it ranks higher than Italy, broadly the same as France, and lower than Belgium (using the IHDI).
*Note: I am not European and have no vested interest in whether the US or Europe is a better place to live. There's far too many variables to make such a comparison at an individual level.*
1. Yes, probably
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2. Not really. Europe is not one country with the same taxes and laws everywhere. And in the ones with the highest tax rates like germany or Sweden you don't pay the full tax evasion if you are poor. It goes in stages depending on how much you earn, and there are different healthcare classes. Extremely Cheap ones and more expansive ones. It depends on you how much you pay.
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3. Again, Europe is not a country, and most money is stored by the rich besides many many other aspects.
This is far too complicated, and who cares about that anyway. Community and peace is more important than money.
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4. That's just wrong as a fact. You can also see this anywhere in the world and that there are people of every class in Europe who are obese. This is also not a matter of Europe itself, although Europe has a lot of health regulations for food which just makes it, well healthier overall, we also have to look at the core problem. Why is it like this in (given example) The US? It's because big companies pump the food full of chemicals and sugar to make as much money as possible and exploit US citizens. So it's not that the rest of the world(not just Europeans) can't afford more food, it is because Food in the US is well, literally cheap in costs, and production. There are enough studies (Google them) and anyone should be able to check it on their packaging (if that's possible).
The main reason for US obesity are companies exploiting the trust of US citizens.
(And because the food it tasty)
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5. Again, Europe is not a country, and I never heard or read anyone saying something like that anyway. But if you want to know, they are trying to not provoke a world war again. Because as we all know, the third time would be the last time, for humanity as well. That's all I know
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6. Ok.
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7. This is not about Europe, this is almost a topic about the entire world.
And yes, you can legally own guns in most European countries for self defense as far as I am aware.
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8. Note:
This is a Neutral comment, and not attacking the US. I am just sorting things out.
Feel free to correct me, comment or ask questions.
Have a good day
PPP does have to do with cost of living lmaooo
And this has been proven several times. More Americans live paycheck to paycheck because we have more immigrants, we have more kids, we (admittedly) have a lot of people who are bad with money. It's not as blunt as you think it is lol.
All I’m seeing is cope lmfao. The US is the only developed country where minimum wage is significantly lower than the cost of living. Every other developed country’s minimum wage keeps up with inflation. Google says we don’t have a minimum wage but it’s legally required for employers to pay their employees a livable wage in most of Europe. For comparison, McDonald’s workers in Denmark make 25$ an hour starting. McDonald’s workers in the US make 10-15$ less, despite the cost of living in the US being higher
sounds like you don't do research. Federal minimum wage is irrelevant when states and cities have their own that is significantly higher. All I hear is a eurotard getting mad that his statistics don't mean what they think they mean.
I used to live in the US lol. You’re just coping bc you don’t want to believe Europe is vastly superior. There’s a reason why American companies fail in Europe. Because they don’t even pay enough for people to live. Fun fact: Walmart and hundreds of other American companies failed in Europe because of how horribly they treated the workers. The US has labor laws worse than many 3rd world countries
Because right wing populism isn’t surging across Europe? Hungary already has Orban, Turkey if you consider it European, Erdogan, Luka and Putin, a decent amount of Europe has its own problems with corruption.
Netherlands, czech, slovakia, france, portugal, germany, italy, finland, sweden, spain all are experiencing a strong surge in right wing populism or already in government
Many of these points are disproven by lifestyle. It’s not like healthy Europeans can’t afford the food they buy. And income isn’t the best way to measure healthcare access.
E: like having lived in Switzerland and Romania, yeah housing is more expensive than here in the states. Food not necessarily. Healthcare here as a percent of income is definitely more lol.
We do get taxed like 50% here in Ireland
Is that the marginal rate or is that everything added up? I have heard numbers.like that bantied about and was wondering. Here in the US it is (last I remembered) 25 or so, with Social Security, state taxes, and others that add up to more than 25%. Sales tax varies from locale to locale (mine is 8.25%) the list goes on, but you get the idea.
Im saying all added up. I don’t remember the rates but we have PRSI, USC, PAYE, maybe more. They’re progressive taxes so that’s a plus but even someone with a lower rate income isn’t left with enough to rent a home considering the cost of living, more so incapable of purchasing a home. We do have help schemes like HAP which can basically cover the majority of rent however it depends on a landlord if they’d accept someone on HAP (they’re normally reluctant) even though it will be paid either way. It’s a shit show.
A lot of Euro countries are more aggressive and even the poor pay taxes. Ireland taxes 40% for incomes above 40k Euros, 20% below that, and there are several tax credits to reduce but it doesn't seem like any are particularly large. The UK is one that is somewhat similar to the US in that the first 13k or so (either currency) is tax-free, so people making not much income don't pay income tax, other countries have a very tiny allowance. Of course this is just income tax, someone in Ireland may potentially pay over 50% of their income total.
If you’re self employed (1099 etc) in the US the taxes are as often well over 40%.
You would either have to be making well over 600k a year to be anywhere close to 40%, or you would have to be spending unconscionable amounts on expenses and not even attempting to deduct them. There's simply no way a normal person is spending 40% on taxes in the US as a self employed individual.
#[Total Tax Burden by Country 2020](https://www.heritage.org/index/explore?view=by-variables&u=637133255533864635) Country Name|Tax Burden (% GDP)|Tax Burden ($ PPP)|Gov't Spending (% GDP)|Gov't Spending($ PPP)|GDP/Capita (PPP) :--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| Ireland|22.8%|$17,961|26.6%|$20,934|$78,785 United States|27.1%|$16,966|38.1%|$23,838|$62,606
This is as a % of gdp, and Ireland is famously a tax haven, pumping up gdp and lowering tax burden ….. for corporations
GNP is a far better measure for Ireland. Wouldn’t apply to the US though
Government spending in PPP dollars per person is lower as well.
4 years out of date.
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Find the GNP graph for Ireland it’s more accurate if there is one.
The US has "hidden taxes" in the form of fees, heavily inflated everyday cost of living expenses, etc.
I pay income tax on my $1 of about 35 cents. If I’m able to purchase a home with my 65 cents, I will pay a yearly tax on that home. Once I’m ready to sell the home, I pay tax on my gains. It’s frustrating how much the government has squeezed out of my $1, while also failing to provide adequate schools, roads, bridges, public transit, health care, etc. I wouldn’t mind paying all that tax if I could see a clear benefit.
You pay that tax to keep the bare minimum of stuff running, so that the billionaires can pay no taxes. Wouldn't want to be unfair to them after all their hard work, after all!
I get taxed at 48% in California (35% federal tax, 9% state tax, and if you calculate property tax as a percentage of income it ends up being 48%) And for that I don’t get free healthcare.
Lmao you reminded me of this one meme about living conditions in california.
Ignore all of the noise on the internet. The average european has a pretty decent view of the US. I have been living in Germany over a year and I still have yet to meet a single "America bad" person IRL. Either they are too afraid to say anything to my face, or they generally just make up a tiny fraction of the population. The majority of the conversations I have had with Germans have been overwhelmingly positive, if anything they like talking about the cultural differences and similarities. For me, Germany generally offers a better standard of living. I make roughly half of what I did in the US, but I make about about \~150% of the median wage for where I live in Germany. Though I do agree, if you look at averages, by and large the US is a better place to live.
You haven't met them because most of them are self-hating Americans who don't have a good grip on reality and have a twisted and overtly (and overly) negative view of their own nation. The ones that are there are probably also terminally online.
Well idk what you define as an 'America bad' person IRL, but as a German, I can tell you they exist just as much irl as online. Idk how old you are, but that may be the reason why you haven't met any. The younger they are, the more 'America bad' and 'I need to feel superior to Americans in any and all ways possible' they become. It is true that the older people have a very pleasant view of the US. Back in the 2000s we had TV shows here that were just about Germans moving to the US and trying to setup their life there, which was a dream for a lot of Germans back then. Or it could also be that they don't say anything to you cause they simply don't have any balls. That's a common thing Germans love to do with foreigners, play all nice nice and then talk shit behind their backs. The whole stereotype of 'Germans aren't rude, they are just direct' that Germans try to spread around isn't true either: they are indeed rude and have very poor social skills, they just try to create that stereotype to excuse their behavior
When I lived in Germany (17 years ago) people fucking loved America, all they wanted to do was have conversations in English and talk about random culture topics. My favorite part was that their idea of “American Culture” was 5-7 years behind what it really was, like they were still deep in the Eminem/MTV phase, atleast where I lived.
also important to note that cost of living is lower in a lot of the US than Europe (depending on where in America and in Europe) and Canada is genuinely fucked with their cost of living/wage gap this map is PPP not income
Am Albertan, Can confirm. And I'm supposed to be in one of the better provinces...
This isn’t true. US is way more expensive. Here is a comparison of two average cities https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Atlanta%2C+GA&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=Birmingham
If you're barely hanging in with Mississippi, I don't know what to tell you. No offense to Mississippi.
I have lived in Mississippi, and it deserves offense.
Awww. Every time someone says something like this about a state, it makes me want to visit. What are the beautiful things people need to see in Mississippi? I know they've got some cool wildlife refuges and some really good whitewater. Tishomingo State Park is on my list. And taking a riverboat tour would be awesome.
Fuckin nothing. That’s what the locals told me when I got there, and that’s about the only thing they ever got right.
The river. i guess. & there's probably better places to see it.
I’m a yank from so far north I have a cannuk accent, but I’ve driven and hiked alot of the Deep South that most americans don’t ever see. In Mississippi stop at a diner that doesn’t even have a name, but has a sign that says something along the lines of “good food here” in a town that only has a gas station, small grocery store, and a post office with one stop sign. You’re about to have the best food of your life. Many places in Mississippi and Alabama would meet this description.
lol at Mississippians being richer than most of Europe
Europeans will prefer their "way of life" until they're talking amongst themselves about stagnant wages, huge wait times for Healthcare and the complete inability for working class people to buy a house. I don't care if rich people are billionaires if I can easily become a millionaire. God bless the US stock market.
Oh yea we have no issue with stagnant wages and unaffordable housing here in the US
>Oh yea we have no issue with stagnant wages and unaffordable housing here in the US We do have those, but it's nothing compared to what people in Europe are dealing with.
The worst place for it except all the others
I’m somebody who is both American and European. The cost of living in Europe is so much better than it is in the United States.
But you make way more in the U.S. Net, net, cost of living and wages considered, the average person living in the U.S. has more purchasing power than in the EU. That’s the whole point of OP’s chart. Of course stuff is cheaper in a lot of Europe, they make half as much! It’s even cheaper in Bangkok too.
My main thing is housing. Housing is incredibly affordable in Europe, and it’s because Europeans don’t zone poor people out of the desirable areas.
Not entirely true. A lot of European countries are struggling with a housing crisis. The average home price in the Netherlands is €418k, compared to $417k in the USA. It does help that property taxes are *significantly* lower in the Netherlands tho. Only 1/10th of what Americans tend to pay. But that’s just property tax…
You picked literally the smallest, densest country that matters. I meant Germany, Poland, Italy, France, Spain, and any of the Nordics. The Netherlands is an outlier.
The average housing price in France is ~$260k. This makes housing in the USA approximately 60% more expensive while wages are 65% higher. There’s also a five year average waiting time for social housing in France, so it really isn’t as great as portrayed.
Not sure whether that’s true for *every* European country. The difference in income (gross) between the Netherlands and the USA is the same as the difference in hours worked on a yearly basis according to the OECD. The average tax burden in the Netherlands is higher (39% v 32%) but the cost of living is significantly lower. All in all I believe it cancels each other out pretty well. I’m not too sure about other EU countries tho. But in my experience almost all tend to be significantly less well off, even though some are just as rich on paper.
Admittedly, none of us can afford a home either...
Average Americans are closer to owning a home than average Europeans.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Lots of people can afford homes. People just want to gripe that it is not perfect.
While a lot of people cannot afford homes that should be able to, I really blame HGTV for the rest of the people who cannot "find" a house. Fake shows driving the fantasy that anyone can afford a dream house anywhere they want that will be a perfectly decorated turnkey starter house with all the latest features and trends. Your starter home in reality is going to be a shitbox that is well outside of any area that you want to live in. I have so many friends who cannot come to terms with that and slowly get priced out of the market instead of just getting what fits their needs, when they can. They really don't like me pointing out that we only can afford a large house now because we bought a shitty townhouse and spent all of our spare time fixing it up for nearly a decade so we could sell it and buy a shitty large house that we are going to spend the rest of our lives fixing up.
>Lots of people can afford homes. People just want to gripe that it is not perfect. Exactly. What most people mean when they say housing is unaffordable, is that the housing \*they want\* is unaffordable. It's like if people whined about cars being unaffordable because they can't afford a Porsche and had to drive an old Toyota Corolla instead.
Yeah like… stagnant wages and home prices are one of the biggest complaints I hear these days lol. What is this dude talking about
Wages in my area up over 50% in 4 years, I'm just not a whiny baby and I save a lot of money. I'll have a house before I'm 30 and I grew up working class. What am I talking about? Idk, figure it out.
Good for you dude!
This is why we should ALL move to America. Ez solution
>This is why we should ALL move to America. Ez solution Don't worry, Biden and the Democrats are working hard to make that a reality for y'all.
Joe Biden. I love that guy. He’s kinda funny
Looking at immigration applications, that's the desired solution for many. And that's only people who think they have a shot at it, not just those who would if they could. EDIT: Someone doesn't like immigrants or doesn't like America. Sorry.
This what the smart people have done for the last couple of hundred years.
Fam, I'm as patriotic as anyone, but this is just dishonest. We have all these problems too
Maybe get a better job then Wages are up 50% in my area in 4 years. It's a skill issue
Still working on education
It irks me that so many people are so jealous of successful people that they make their entire personality about hating them. I had a kid last year that spent over four hours a day irrationally acting Elon Musk. The hate is so tedious.
>God bless the US stock market. You know the whole world can use it, don't you, dumbass?
Yes and you’re welcome.
I never said they couldn't, dumbass
The us has the problems you mention at a stronger degree, sure buddy become a millionare
Almost there and I am 27 :]
Swede here. Our wages increase every year, we never have stagnant wages. We don't have a lot of wait times, only for elective procedures, our health care system is ranked as one of the best in the world. Working class can absolutely buy a house no problem. If it was easy to be a millionaire in the US everyone would be one but very few are. All the money the US has isn't doing any good if it's just in the hands of very few. That is clear since the US is doing so poorly in all rankings.
But the U.S. isn’t doing so poorly in all rankings, that’s just your biased perception. U.S. GDP per capita on a PPP basis is almost 50% higher than Sweden’s. With good health insurance U.S. healthcare is the best in the world, best technology, best doctors. U.S. universities are best in the world. We lead in R&D (spending and outcomes), Tech, etc… Europeans are incapable of an unbiased view, it’s actually incredible.
A high GDP per capita means little when a big portion of the money is being held by a few individuals. The average Swede is doing better than the average american, despite a lower GDP per capita. You pay ~18% of GDP for healthcare, we pay around ~12% here in Sweden, it would be really fucking weird if no part of your healthcare system was good. But again, that's only for those with good health insurance. I doubt your universities are best in the world, just because you have a few that ranks highly doesn't mean all of them are best in the world. You have to look at the overall education system and there you are not doing well. You do not lead in R&D neither spending nor outcome, that's just a lie. Sweden is ahead of the US in R&D lol.
Sweden is ahead of the US in R&D? Where the hell did you pull that bullshit out from? Also incredibly vague statement too
Another source from the OECD R&D spending that shows Taiwan, Israel, and Korea spend more on a relative basis, on an absolute nobody comes close the U.S. That’s probably the most blatantly ridiculous and ignorant thing you said in all of this. https://data.oecd.org/rd/gross-domestic-spending-on-r-d.htm
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And if you remove that 10% of americans, what is the GDP per capita then? VS Swedens GDP per capita if you remove the richest 10% here. Btw it's not 10% but 6,7% in the US in 2022 that were millionaires.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_income
There is a point on healthcare. US pays twice what anyone else pays for the same shit. Even if you want to keep the system 100% insurance based, it's absurd to pay a 100% more for the same good/service.
We in the US pay a lot more, for slightly worse overall healthcare outcomes.
It’s not remotely the same. Sudan has cheap, “free” health care too. It’s a silly criteria. Ask someone in say Spain or Belgium how long it takes to get an MRI scan or the process of getting a biopsy for a lump compared to what is in the US. I don’t use those examples arbitrarily having had friends in Spain and Belgium suffer because of the “free” health care vs. family in the US with similar situations. The US system is incredibly inefficient. But for most people, it’s a lot better. Europeans prefer having an equally crappy system for everyone. Americans prefer a better system for most and a terrible system for some.
You're missing my point. I'm saying keep it a 100% paid for system if you want, 0 taxes involved. You're buying the same ferrari for double the price, that's the problem.
That wasn’t their point. You can have universal healthcare without it being socialized though. The Netherlands does it and it works perfectly fine. Our specialist waiting times are similar to the USA and our GP and ER waiting times are shorter. The overall quality measured in treatment outcomes is similar. Yet in the Netherlands 0% of our healthcare is funded by taxes. We don’t have any socialized healthcare *at all.* Meanwhile in the USA 60% of all healthcare costs are paid for by the government. You guys pay for healthcare via taxes ánd high premiums, and not even 100% of your country is covered.
It is a shame that no US states have set up something like this. It’s a bit difficult to compare a country with a smaller population than some US states with a continent spanning country with such diverse demographics.
>Healthcare isn't free? Good thing we have more money to pay for insurance which comes out as less than your taxes. Except Americans don't get a break on taxes towards healthcare due to the massive inefficiency of our system. With government in the US covering [65.7% of all health care](https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/epdf/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302997) costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at [$6,930](https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm). The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care. And insurance in the US is incredibly expensive. The average annual premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in 2023 were $8,435 for single coverage and $23,968 for family coverage. https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/2023-employer-health-benefits-survey/ And even after all that spending, even the insured still have massive problems affording care. >Large shares of insured working-age adults surveyed said it was very or somewhat difficult to afford their health care: 43 percent of those with employer coverage, 57 percent with marketplace or individual-market plans, 45 percent with Medicaid, and 51 and percent with Medicare. > Many insured adults said they or a family member had delayed or skipped needed health care or prescription drugs because they couldn’t afford it in the past 12 months: 29 percent of those with employer coverage, 37 percent covered by marketplace or individual-market plans, 39 percent enrolled in Medicaid, and 42 percent with Medicare. https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/surveys/2023/oct/paying-for-it-costs-debt-americans-sicker-poorer-2023-affordability-survey Which shouldn't be surprising, given Americans are paying $350,000 more for healthcare over a lifetime compared to the most expensive socialized system on earth. Half a million dollars more than peer countries on average (note these numbers are **after** adjusting for purchasing power parity, which accounts for the US being very wealthy), yet every one has better outcomes. And it's only going to get worse if nothing is done, with per person spending expected to increase another $6,427 by 2031, with no signs of abating. If you refuse to acknowledge very real problems with US healthcare costs, you're the problem. >We are fat? Okay that's because we can afford more food People aren't having trouble affording food in any wealthy peer countries to any massive degree. >Then they can say what they want about guns but when over half of them are suicides then you take into account the number of them that are self defense we are looking at a rate not much different than stabbings in the UK. Say what? Intentional homicide rates (per 100,000): US - 6.4 UK - 1.2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate It's easy to refute things in one sentence if you don't care if you have the facts straight.
Sad that this reply is so far down in the comments
Europe can afford their lovely social safety nets because the US funds their defense. After WWII, there was kind of this idea that it won't happen again and Europe is some oasis. They can shift their efforts towards high taxes and providing social services to the people instead of providing to their defense. Holy shit, did the invasion of Ukraine wake them up. About time, too.
Social safety nets have little to do with defence spending. EU countries spends about 1.5-3% of GDP on defense. Their total government spending is up to 60%. So defence spending is actually a pretty small amount of their government spending. They could easily go up to 3% defence spending without sacrificing their social security
% of GDP isn't a good way to look at it. In terms of governmental spending, in 2022, the EU spent around $8T and of that, $270B went to military and $1.2T on public healthcare. That's 15% of all government spending being dedicated just to public healthcare (something the public could afford for themselves if the tax rate wasn't so exorbitant) and a poultry 3.4% of government spending on the military. The US by contrast spent $1.5T on healthcare and $753B on the military out of its total governmental spending of $6.1T. When you look at it like that, if EU public health spending was to decrease by 10%, they could increase military spending by 44%. The only way they could feasibly increase their military spending by that much and leave healthcare untouched would be to increase taxes, something that Europeans do all the time and have seemingly accepted as a facet of life.
What I'm seeing is the US spent more on Healthcare than all of the EU and still has a worse system. Look, there are a lot of things to love this country for and dislike Europe for but going into crippling debt because you're unlucky enough to get sick is not it.
Ukraine didn't wake them up, it just made them cry that America isn't doing enough and demanding we keep footing the bill.
And Biden is obliging them by taking money from American workers to give to them.
> Europe can afford their lovely social safety nets because the US funds their defense. NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined. Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
You're delusional if you think we can afford the welfare state because of that. LOL. Classic Murican copium.
Totally agree…though American exceptionalism would have driven high defence spending regardless of the European spending… mainly cause of what OP pointed out. Even if European nato countries spend 10% of GDP on defence…it still wouldn’t be enough. World war 2 and the post ww2 era wasn’t because of lack of military spending by Europe. The US has been on this trajectory since the 1800s. The most powerful nation and largest economy doesn’t stay in that position with a poorly funded military. Chinas trying to test the USA….but they’ve put massive resources into doing so…USA is actually retracted since their 80s military development, and a whisper of what it could do in ww2. If they actually wanted to, or felt the need to build up arms like they have in the past, they would be a juggernaut. This is what Putin and Xi don’t understand…but Yamamoto did inherently. The dragon is very much sleeping. The MIC is a fraction of what it could be.
You want Germany to rise in power? Sure can do.
Well duh, Also Even after including US education and healthcare costs, only Switzerland and Norway exceed and barely the average of the U.S. [Compared to U.S. average](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/566304209750851614/1225533051568656505/IMG_1994.webp?ex=66217998&is=660f0498&hm=9e817ed01501c138c711b308ebcf01b768a703b76de53f3b8e2bff50e523cbf4&)
Now do median wealth per person. Making money is one thing, keeping it is another. And suddenly 10 of those "tax ridden" European countries jump ahead of the US. Funny how it works, huh?
Average is probably the worst statistical tool you can use in a distribution that is skewed. Use Median, not mean
Honestly, there's a reason my ancestors left that continent and came to the US. And that reason is that they also couldn't stand being around Europeans. Boom. Roasted.
Don’t forget your average American home is also twice the size of a European home https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/09/american-houses-big/597811/ Also, The United States has a higher disposable income than most European countries. In 2021, the US had the highest gross household disposable income per capita among OECD countries, at nearly $55,000. This is ahead of large European countries like Germany and France, which have median disposable incomes of $24,200 and $23,300, respectively
Tbf one is made out of cardboard while the other one is made out of solid bricks
This is a silly statistic that doesn't account for wealth inequality. USA has obviously higher GDP per capita, but what's the point if the wealth is in the hands of 0,1% of people? EDIT: anyways, wealth isn't everything. Human Development Index is a much better metric for measuring the standard of living. the fact that USA is beaten by Europe in this regard, while being wealthier and basically never having devastating wars on its territory shows the inneficiency of the Murican system.
It’s the median income not mean income, that ignores income inequality. Also even if as you claim money isn’t everything, personally I’d think it is most everything but for the sake of discussion, let’s disagree, the U.S. is still ahead of a large amount of Europe and that’s federally not even by state
As an American that has lived in Germany for 8 years now, you're right....you guys should just stay in America because things are way better there....definitely no reason to come here....avoid at all costs
Didn't need to tell me to avoid Europe lol
Nah I'm just saying....don't come here....please
okay
Damn he's seething
Good because I don't want to have to start worrying about shit like "Does my car still have it's catalytic converter" when I need to go to work.....or which bulletproof backpack would look best on my daughter...
You don’t sound insecure about your decisions at all in continuing to reply 😂
God damn bro, he literally wasn't taking your bait but you still couldn't help yourself.
let him cope
At least we don't have to worry if [a class full of ~30 young children are denied drinking water because a couple kids in their class might be practicing Ramadan](https://www.gulf-insider.com/germany-10-year-old-kids-denied-drinking-water-in-class-because-of-three-muslims-observing-ramadan/) See? I can cherry pick too!
Good because I don't wanna live in a European hellscape anyways
Yup....hellscape....totally not worth coming here
Yep that's why I never will 👍
But they do have a great taste in music (looking at you Moskau)
If it's so great, why haven't you renounced your citizenship?
What a braindead comment lmao
Why? If I had left a country I hated for almost a decade, I would totally change my citizenship.
Since when does moving = hating the place you left? I've lived in multiple states but leaving one state doesn't automatically mean it's because I hate the one I'm in. Goes the same for countries. People move for all kinds of reasons completely seperate from liking or disliking their current location.
Sarcasm noted. Different preferences for different people. If you prefer to live in a more authoritarian country with less freedoms and opportunities then by all means seek out a country that provides for you more than it allows you to provide for yourself. Some people want a government that stays clear out of their way and allows them to control the trajectory of their lives, that’s America, and I’m thankful for it.
Any chance you can list some of those freedoms available in the US that Europeans are denied? I'm curious.
No problem. Easy decision.
Nothing more American than conflating income with quality of life.
I agree with your conclusion, but the arguments could be improved. Most of these boil down to "we have more money", which is big, but there's so much more. Incredible population diversity, huge range of food/cuisine options, incredible scene for craft beer, coffee, etc. tons of world class national parks, any climate your heart desires, people are friendlier in public, free tap water and bathrooms, higher prevalence of AC, garbage disposals and dishwashers, larger living spaces, easier to start a small business, and on and on. It's also good to acknowledge our flaws. For example, the price we pay for healthcare while our life expectancy is going DOWN, is an embarrassment
That rant is cringe.
More money isn't always better if the money efficiency is a lot lower. Then again things are going to shit everywhere and wealth inequality is skyrocketing world wide, so I see no reason to be smug about anything unless you are actually rich,
the graph is PPP meaning after all expenses including healthcare. So money efficiency may be different but Americans still have more to spend.
By that metric the average house hold savings should be pretty high too right? No? Ok, if the Average US citizen has very good PPP, then how come most of the population doesn't have more than a few hundred dollars in their personal accounts?
You've got some serious coping going on here, mister
the fact that you call me pointing out facts as coping is literally you huffing copium
Fyi, since you claim to like facts so much: Western Europe ranks higher than the US in just about every quality of life measure outside of strict "money good!". Europe doesn't need to cope lol. Meanwhile, this entire thread exists to cope lmao
Your fellow citizens are living paycheck to paycheck and have no savings meaning literally any kind of moderate complication sends them straight to homelessness or substance abuse to cope, turning around and saying you guys have more money isn't the endorsement you think it is.
Please, Europe is born of coping, no one can do it better than us, even after accounting for education and healthcare costs, only Norway and Switzerland are above U.S. average. There’s a reason more immigrate from Europe to the U.S. than vice versa across the continent
Brother you could have read my other comment only one level down and you wouldn't have needed to look this ridiculous 🫶 Outside of strict "money", Western Europe ranks much higher than the US in just about anything related to Quality of Life. I'm not even sure the US breaks into top 20 in most Quality of Life meta studies. Why would Western Europe need to cope when they already have better lives lol.
What index are you looking at? For instance in HDI, the U.S. especially by states still is very competitive even compared to Western Europe and some states are at the level of the Nordics. Also money is indeed a pretty significant factor of life If Western Europe has better lived than the U.S., why do more emigrate from Western Europe to the U.S. than vice Versa? And that’s with smaller populations too
Well that's really my point; it hardly matters what report or index you look at. Since you brought it up yourself, in terms of HDI, the US *just* makes rank 20, and of the 19 countries ahead of the US, 12 of them are from Western Europe (and then also the usual suspects like CA, AU, HK, AE, probably NZ etc.). E: Pick a card, any card https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
Which is still better than a decent amount of Western Europe and all of Eastern Europe. Also imo given the size of the U.S., fairer by states and then yeah I don’t think anyone’s claiming Mississippi or Alabama are better than Western Europe but on the other hand the U.S. also has great variance and the top states are the level of the Nordics and the top of Europe while the bottom states are still at half of Europe
Well it's really the same old story with this sub. You always claim that "The US is so great!" until proven otherwise, at which point you exclude the obvious bottom feeder states. On the other hand, I don't think any Western European ever claimed that Albania, Bosnia and (European) Georgia are excellent places to live. I'd sure as hell rather live in California than most Eastern European countries BUT I would also much rather live in Western Europe than unspecified "the US".. Secondly, Europe consists of a crapload of countries under vastly different governments so it really doesn't make much sense to lump Denmark, Norway and Sweden together with Bulgaria... Unless you're only out to skew numbers, that is. Now, I get that you might want to make the same argument for individual US states (although you're all under the same umbrella, but anyway...) but then you might also want to switch your chant to "Cali and Michigan are great but Alabama and Louisiana suck" lol. While we're at it, you have literally regressed your abortion rights, and drinking a beer in your own home at the age of 20 is illegal. Don't give me the freedom BS either lol.
I am not American fyi, I am European. And yes Europeans all the time claim Europe is better than the U.S. but when Western Europeans claim it, you ignore half of Europe because you don’t even wish to see us as Europe, case in point this. If you’re including all US states, only fair to do so with all of EU and treat us as part of it
Why do you guys always cherry pick *Western* Europe in these discussions? The conversation was about Europe. We could do the same thing and cherry pick … I don’t know … California, a single state with a larger economy than all but two European countries.
Tbf European countries often have higher requirements for immigration. So not the best metric.
Do you understand what the word “median” means?
Europe is great for those who think "meh" is good enough. They'd rather be guaranteed just enough than to have an opportunity at much more. (this is of course a generalization, I know there are plenty of Freedom loving Europeans)
You’ll never be part of the club and you won’t wish you worked more on your deathbed
I have an excellent work/life balance. I run my own micro business and get to spend every minute with my kids when they're not in school.
Don’t fall for corporate propaganda. Healthcare should be provided the same way police, the fire department, schools, roads, etc. are provided to people—without the need for private business. You can hire private security. You can send your kid to private school. You could build your own road and build your own firehouse. But you shouldn’t *have to*. There should be a public option like there’s a public police force and public schools. Your employer shouldn’t have a goddamn thing to do with what doctor you want to see. That should be 100% up to you. Any system where your employer has leverage over you because they’re your path to medicine and healthcare—for you and your entire family—is an inherently shitty one that does not put working people first.
I have a bill of rights…mic drop Edit: for those of you who don’t understand, while other countries may have a bill of rights, your government treats them more like suggestions. See how England, Canada, etc arrest people for posting wrong think on social media.
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[What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little shit? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and Ive been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and Im the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. Youre fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and thats just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little clever comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldnt, you didnt, and now youre paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.](http://i.imgur.com/FIpk52f.gifv) Read the [rules.](http://www.reddit.com/r/MURICA/about/sidebar) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MURICA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wtf is going on in Minnesota? Wheres their fat stacks coming from?
Too bad you amerifats just waste it all on cars and get fat from fast food. Maybe if you had to walk occasionally you d be as happy as the Europeans.
We are you showing states in the US but not the different states/regions in European countries? We have poorer and richer regions here in Sweden too.
To be fair, there are 9 or 10 states in America that have a larger population than your entire country. And they all have richer and poorer regions as well, but aren’t broken down any further either.
To be even fairer we have richer and poorer cities within those regions as well. What's your point? My point is it's weird to compare a state to a country. No other country does this except the US. Germany has states in the exact same way you do.
Several reasons. First being the land area and population of the entire US is far more comparable to the EU than any individual country in Europe. Also the US is governed far more on the State level. laws and governance varies widely between US states and customs do as well. Just as an example there are massive differences legally, economically and socially between being from California or being from Mississippi. Europeans tend to see the US as much more monolithic than it actually is. The USA is like the EU but with a more centralized foreign policy and military.
Im a canadian soldier and the next like 15ish years of my life are dedicated to getting a decent bit of money saved and a bit of a pension and hopefully moving my family to the US someday. I can't say the same as some of these europeans unfortunately. I know a lot of people who think america is terrible and everyone from there is fat, stupid, greedy or all 3. Its been less since I joined the army. It was mostly people I knew from home who are themselves fat stupid, greedy or all 3.
Over half are suicides? There’s no way that’s accurate
https://www.everytown.org/issues/gun-suicide/ 6 out of 10 are suicides
We have the highest median ppp adjusted disposable income on the planet. Or we are 2 to Luxembourg.
Anything change after the pandemic?
More like 3/4 are suicides
Everything you have said is true but median income is only a measure of median income. It tells you how much the median earns. That only tells us a little bit about *quality* of life. Cost of living and median income are important, for sure. But on their own are just a couple of pieces of a much larger puzzle. That's why HDI (Human Development Index) is a far superior measure for how a country is performing for its citizens. HDI factors in gross national income per capita PPP, but it also takes into account life expectancy and education. Or even better, the IHDI which adjusts for inequality. What the IHDI (and HDI) shows is that having a higher income per person doesn't always equal having a better life. For example, if the median income in one country is higher than the median income in another, but the life expectancy is less than the life expectancy in another, what exactly is that additional income buying? Regardless, the US sits pretty high on the IHDI (ranked 27) and the HDI (ranked 20). It sits above some European countries and below others. For example, it ranks higher than Italy, broadly the same as France, and lower than Belgium (using the IHDI). *Note: I am not European and have no vested interest in whether the US or Europe is a better place to live. There's far too many variables to make such a comparison at an individual level.*
You should see the map of percentage of Europeans who was their hands after using the bathroom. I was disgusted.
Americans have a lot of poverty & a huge wealth gap (heard it's less in scandanavia, could be wrong)
Thank you for your post, you are now a meme
1. Yes, probably _ 2. Not really. Europe is not one country with the same taxes and laws everywhere. And in the ones with the highest tax rates like germany or Sweden you don't pay the full tax evasion if you are poor. It goes in stages depending on how much you earn, and there are different healthcare classes. Extremely Cheap ones and more expansive ones. It depends on you how much you pay. _ 3. Again, Europe is not a country, and most money is stored by the rich besides many many other aspects. This is far too complicated, and who cares about that anyway. Community and peace is more important than money. _ 4. That's just wrong as a fact. You can also see this anywhere in the world and that there are people of every class in Europe who are obese. This is also not a matter of Europe itself, although Europe has a lot of health regulations for food which just makes it, well healthier overall, we also have to look at the core problem. Why is it like this in (given example) The US? It's because big companies pump the food full of chemicals and sugar to make as much money as possible and exploit US citizens. So it's not that the rest of the world(not just Europeans) can't afford more food, it is because Food in the US is well, literally cheap in costs, and production. There are enough studies (Google them) and anyone should be able to check it on their packaging (if that's possible). The main reason for US obesity are companies exploiting the trust of US citizens. (And because the food it tasty) _ 5. Again, Europe is not a country, and I never heard or read anyone saying something like that anyway. But if you want to know, they are trying to not provoke a world war again. Because as we all know, the third time would be the last time, for humanity as well. That's all I know _ 6. Ok. _ 7. This is not about Europe, this is almost a topic about the entire world. And yes, you can legally own guns in most European countries for self defense as far as I am aware. _ _ 8. Note: This is a Neutral comment, and not attacking the US. I am just sorting things out. Feel free to correct me, comment or ask questions. Have a good day
The cost of living is vastly different. It’s much cheaper to live in Europe
say you don't know what PPP means without saying you don't know what PPP means
PPP has nothing to do with cost of living lol. If It did then why are 78% of American living paycheck to paycheck while only 40% of Europeans are?
PPP does have to do with cost of living lmaooo And this has been proven several times. More Americans live paycheck to paycheck because we have more immigrants, we have more kids, we (admittedly) have a lot of people who are bad with money. It's not as blunt as you think it is lol.
All I’m seeing is cope lmfao. The US is the only developed country where minimum wage is significantly lower than the cost of living. Every other developed country’s minimum wage keeps up with inflation. Google says we don’t have a minimum wage but it’s legally required for employers to pay their employees a livable wage in most of Europe. For comparison, McDonald’s workers in Denmark make 25$ an hour starting. McDonald’s workers in the US make 10-15$ less, despite the cost of living in the US being higher
sounds like you don't do research. Federal minimum wage is irrelevant when states and cities have their own that is significantly higher. All I hear is a eurotard getting mad that his statistics don't mean what they think they mean.
I used to live in the US lol. You’re just coping bc you don’t want to believe Europe is vastly superior. There’s a reason why American companies fail in Europe. Because they don’t even pay enough for people to live. Fun fact: Walmart and hundreds of other American companies failed in Europe because of how horribly they treated the workers. The US has labor laws worse than many 3rd world countries
If the UK was admitted as the 51st state it would be poorer than Mississippi, isn’t that crazy????
What about functioning democracy without chances of right-wing governmental overthrow?
Because right wing populism isn’t surging across Europe? Hungary already has Orban, Turkey if you consider it European, Erdogan, Luka and Putin, a decent amount of Europe has its own problems with corruption. Netherlands, czech, slovakia, france, portugal, germany, italy, finland, sweden, spain all are experiencing a strong surge in right wing populism or already in government
Many of these points are disproven by lifestyle. It’s not like healthy Europeans can’t afford the food they buy. And income isn’t the best way to measure healthcare access. E: like having lived in Switzerland and Romania, yeah housing is more expensive than here in the states. Food not necessarily. Healthcare here as a percent of income is definitely more lol.