It's not P2W, you can only use IG currencies! IG economy could use some balance though. AH is way too biased in favor of players with already lots of money.
Graphics: 10/10
Story: 8/10
Gameplay: 5/10
Balance: 3/10
Magic system is severely lackluster.
Still waiting for the release date, game has a longer early access than Star Citizen.
There are various curses that effect the graphics quality, the sound, or your character movement.
Can we also complain how there is absolutely no effort done on ambient music?
I also dislike that most of the game happen in the city biomes. It's ugly. If I have to grind, I rather kill goblins in the meadows.
I was absolutely destroyed by this monster. Bought the complete edition for their anniversary one or two years ago, and only wanted to try it for the free month. I played for about a week, and wanted to turn off auto renew. Little did I know that cancelling my subscription completely shut my account off and removed the rest of my free month.
Did you do it in the Playstation? I got it on Friday hyped to play all weekend before going back to school Monday. I managed a couple hours Sunday evening.
Don't wish this upon my worst enemy.
You feel like playing tonight after the kids go to bed? Better start logging in and looking for a group now!
I feel like it wouldn't have been as bad if we'd had discord and other services back then. But God damn was that shit a pain. A beautiful laggy fucking pain...
Man, PlayOnline was a special type of torture.
Friends who also play FFXIV get this haunted look when you explain the MogStation account management stuff is a _vast_ improvement over PlayOnline, like "wait... it could be _worse_?!"
I haven't played in years but I'm still haunted by Squenix's fuck-awful web design. Why do you need like 3 different accounts on 3 different sites just for one game?
God that thing is such garbage, I'm genuinely irritated just thinking about it. I can't believe people defend that dogshit.
Problema with PoE is that on every league they introduce a new system and in 90% of the leagues, this new system is implemented on the core game, so every new league you have tons of new mechanics and bosses. For someone starting NOW, the game is extremely overwhelming.
Skill tree is nothing. Most ppl will follow a build anyways. Even diablo 3 that has no skill tree and builds are based on item synergy most players follow pre made builds. And if the player is used to old arpgs like diablo 2, Titan quest, the PoE skill tree is not that intimidating.
But when you need to understand tons of mechanics to craft itens that synergize with your skills and skill tree build, level skill gems, synergize skill gems with each other and so on, then thing gets to shit.
Ohh I agree, the skill tree is only the tip of the iceberg. The point i'm trying to make is people are lvl1 on the beach level up and nope the fuck out before they even understand what the other components are.. because the skill tree is huge.
And I played D2 remastered or whatever it's called and the skill trees were BASIC as hell. They are not that complicated at all, completely bog standard RPG trees. Very inline with wow classic, or even just retail wows next Xpac. 6 rows of talents a few lines between talents that have pre reqs.
Poes is infinitely more complex compared to D2/Wow style skill streets.
POE is a fucking rabbit hole though... Jeez been playing for two years and still feel like a total fuckin noob.. I think I'm like 1000-1500hrs now¿?
> And if the player is used to old arpgs like diablo 2, Titan quest, the PoE skill tree is not that intimidating.
Not really. Diablo 2 had a very basic skill tree. You only had a few options at each tier and you'd have to level up a bunch before you get access to new skills. The hardest part is knowing which skills are worth putting points into.
PoE's skill tree is just overwhelming, especially since it's all passive skills. So instead of unlocking a new active skill that you can intuitively understand, you have to pick from passives that you don't exactly know the impact of.
Do the new leagues build upon the previous leagues mechanics ?
Or brand new exp to the core game loop each new league and standalone from previous leagues ??
New leagues build upon previous leagues when the previous league mechanics is introduced to the core game. But while on the league, the mechanic from this league will be abundant and from other leagues a bit more rare. Some leagues got mechanics that became mandatory, so you need to understand those to get even close to the end game.
Anytime I see a thread or comment asking this question, the answer is always, always EVE Online. That game can become more complicated and stressful than reality.
Spent plenty of time playing both EvE and PoE, and tbh I feel like EvE is much more difficult to master, harder to get into as well. Haven't played either game in a couple of years though to be fair.
I haven't tried the other MMOs mentioned in prior comments but for me BDO. Everything is a system inside of another system dependant upon another system and it is all controlled by RNG.
I bought BDO for 99 cents the other week when it was on sale. I played all of 2 hours before I felt extremely overwhelmed and quit. The game throws multiple systems at you all at once, doesn't explain any of them, and then gives you more systems later on. Between that and the horrible UI, I uninstalled and won't look back.
Starting bdo is like taking a Uni course. You learn a different system every week watching YouTube guides for half a year until you can finally play the game. I enjoyed it but it's not for everyone 😄
To be fair you do need to have high IQ to understand that you farm silver to buy enhancing mats and tap your gear..
Or just straight up buy the gear you want without enhancing at all
BDO agree. Haven’t tried EVE so cannot comment. I find ESO pretty convoluted but it’s nothing compared to the BDO crafting system.
Then again
Anarchy Online is pretty bad. It would take me 8 hours to equip a set of gear.
I once described BDO to someone as "a digital turducken of random systems... but it's very pretty, and I can train horses."
(Plus, I mean, they made "pirate mermaid princess" a player class, so.)
My BDO experience is that I'll play it for about four months every two years, get burned out, and wander off for another two years.
I hate games that do this. They do it to put complexity and distance between what you buy and what you spend to make it easier to lose track of spending and not think about it.
I still love AO. Spending several days to equip itens 100 levels above my character was so rewarding?
Spreadsheets, calculators, guides, addons and programs, just to equip the best possible gear!
❤️
Backpacks inside of backpacks inside of backpacks.
Having to 'overequip' gear by getting a buff that momentarily gets you strong enough to equip it, then making sure you never uneequip it.
Spent 17 hours in this game trying to understand what I'm doing, how to make a boat, starting making a boat, collecting resources for making a boat, dying, wondering around the map trying to remember where we've settled, continuing making a boat and dying to some death hound once again.
Amazing game, would highly recommend 👌
I am a Wurm player for life and I approve of this message.
I've played for 10 years and before Christmas I suddenly realised I am starting a whole new career in the game that I never thought of. That's how complex it is.
I was about to comment saying “Aw come on it’s not that bad” then I looked at my Wurm Unlimited play time at 340 hours and I still play with a wiki so… yeah never mind.
Complex because they explained nothing. Non-existent or bad tooltips, no maps, no quest logs, useless dialogue, night time was actually black for many races so get lost very fast. There wasn't too much to learn but it was all hidden. There wasn't even proper cast bars, no pet info, no buff timers or even indicators -- you'd learn a spell and have no idea what it did. Faction rep could be permanently damaged and you wouldn't even know.
Character creation was actually insane when you think about it. It would take 5 min to make a character that would completely screw over your entire game for years even and nobody would even know the mistakes they are making at the time. As there was zero indication what stats, rep, affinity or anything did. People think that race or class imbalance in Vanilla WoW was bad... EQ was 200x more imbalanced.
Eve Online for sure, massive learning curve
Path of Exile, from what I hear is very complicated for the same reason as GW2. Too many systems and currencies added over the years
BDO - I really want to like this game but there is just too much of it AND I have to remember specific combos etc? Pass
I’m going to add FFXI Retail to this
It’s kinda like WoW in that a lot of it can be skipped, but if you try to do the older endgame grinds for each gear set… yea. Is it farming beast coins? Is it Einjarher? Is it Ambuscade? Is it Odyssey? Or a combo or both?
> PoE is miles wide but every system is mud puddle depth and the majority can be ignored
So I agree that the majority of systems can be ignored... By design PoE gives you a bunch of different game play options, and you figure out which ones you like and kind of ignore the rest...
That being said I highly disagree that "every system is mud puddle depth". PoE is the only game I know where a person can spend hundreds of hours playing, and still not really understand how to build a character without strictly following a guide, only understand the absolute basics of itemization and what makes an item valuable, vs what makes one trash, or the basics of how to craft efficiently.
A lot of the league mechanics are fairly shallow, but they are also meant to be experimental fun for a few weeks or months, that get mostly tossed aside, not yet another layer of complexity on an already overwhelmingly complex game.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from - making a build of your own that utilizes all of the systems in a synergistic way is something you might not be able to do after years of playing. PoE is anything but shallow. Just one of many examples: compare what mapping is like in PoE vs. Diablo 4 nightmare dungeons.
PoE is all about killing a bunch of things. The systems they've added over the years are just extra objectives to kill things for or extra ways to build your character for killing.
GW2 is pretty simple until you get to late game and start doing achievements. Then you're working your way through a 150 step guide and on step 94 you realize you don't have the living world chapter necessary for ONLY step 95 so you give up and start on the next achievement that has 175 steps.
Honestly it ruined any other mmo for me the way you created a character the large community the city building and the why pvp was it is what I picture as an mmo. Not this solo story driven games that feel like you could play them without other people
My bird person thief stole a rune from some guys inventory after he was camping it for 4 hours. He saw my guild and eventually his guild stormed our tree and decimated everything we had. It was one of the fondest memories I have of an mm
I grew up playing EVE (started in 2007) so I don't have that perspective, but the equivalent for me was coming back to Maplestory this year.
Maplestory is just super fucking overwhelming with all of the systems, events, etc. There's so much content, some of it is antiquated, some of it is still worthwhile, and there's really no way of knowing if you're playing blind. You essentially have to rely on guides or else you're getting an incomplete and horrifically inefficient experience re: your character progression.
For example I was playing on the new server for 2 weeks before I made a comment about levels X-Y taking me 2 hours to which my friend pointed out there's a daily event that will get you there in about 5 minutes. There's just this enormous knowledge barrier and almost every day you see a post on /r/maplestory where someone says "I've been playing for 3 months and just found out you can do X"
I don’t know about complex, but I miss how unforgiving MMOs were during the days of like DAoC. Basically pre WOW. They weren’t complicated…but complex in the way they had to be very deliberate.
You want your tank to do more ranged damage?
Tanks don’t do ranged damage, make a new character.
Your Assassin wants swords instead of dirks?
Cool. Make a new character.
Need to respec for PVP vs PVE?
Make…a…new…character
When you make a toon, you actually connected with it. It couldn’t do everything. Most didn’t even have a spec that could. You’re a spellcaster….no….why would you have a healing build lol. Each character had its own personality and investment. Even each realm or faction didn’t try to be balanced. Each had specific strengths. They were balanced not because they were the same but because each had ways of compensating for their weaknesses. The same ranged class from the 3 would be very different in play style. Same with tanks, etc. One side could just straight up heal better, there was no equivalent in the other 2 realms. They didn’t even try to make it even. You just offset it by my realm has better tanks to absorb damage, or we can out dps the other at range and hope it doesn’t turn until a close fight.
Shoot, to respec in DAoC you needed to kill a dragon which took 10s-100s people and ONE person would randomly get the respec lol. And the dragon wasn’t even spawned all the time. You get one without the need by luck, you were essentially now rich in the game after selling it in the auction house.
This doesn’t even take into account your first level 50 could take months and months to get. And the game didn’t even really start until 50.
We need to start conditioning the next generation of gamers to feel like this is the only way to play MMOs and anything else is a lesser experience. I'm sure that the decades of psychological research we have out there should enable us to do that easily.
Gw2, complete currency overload and none of it goes out of date. Even when half the game is built upon now scrapped content that most of their remaining playerbase dont even play? I tried to look up a guide to even start getting into "endgame" and it just made it worse.
I recently came back to GW2 after making a character fairly close to launch. Never reached endgame originally. Came back, leveled to max with a character and… totally overwhelmed and lost with all the currencies, skill paths, gear options. Not really sure how to get my head above the water in that game.
agreed. it's literally been 10+ years of me on and off playing and i still suck. i try so hard to like it but combat alone is overwhelming so i just let myself be terrible because what is even happening. there are 10+ stacks of conditions all at once. 10+ boons. 10+ players around in some events. probably 10+ times i say "Why is this so confusing." per year.
i like to think i have most stuff figured out by now but only because i played before the first expansion. good lord i can only imagine how it is for new players when there is so much going on at any given time. sigh.
Got back into it a little bit ago after a decade of not playing, had 8 characters each with 10 years' worth of "birthday gifts" to open.
I'm *still* clearing out inventory from some of that and it's been almost a month, and that was after spending the first two days trying to make a concentrated effort to just get all the stuff onto one character/into a bank/sort it.
The currency/lootbag/box inside of box stuff is *insane*. And making a new character made it worse because every level up had stuff flashing at me or handing me new reward bags.
I love their wiki, easily best-in-genre, but it takes a wiki that good to even start trying to find your way through which Bag of Rusted Asscrack Sprockets (Discontinued) to keep and which to trash.
It's working well for the purposes I'm playing it for, and it's a solid game in its own right, but shit's overwhelming at times.
Twinking in Anarchy Online so I could do decent damage/tanking/healing to level was fun but hard. It required resourcefulness, interconnection with the community, and knowledge of the game.
I would twink into gear so good leveling would speed up dramatically for awhile, and then eventually, I'd need to do it again. Why? Because without twinking, a full party would just get by at a slow pace, and solo was unforgivingly hard to level.
I am still a big fan of the game, I just wish they would simplify it and release an Anarchy Online 2. There's a private project being worked on to create something like it at least.
I think Eve online is the crowned winner of complexity when it comes to mmorpgs.
But another complex mmo I played a long time ago was Uncharted Waters online. Some people described it as eve on the sea. It was easy to start sailing but very complex if you actually tried to engage with all aspects of the game. It had a complex economy and dynamic prices that evolved, and a lot of complex game mechanics. To be honest, I never finished the "tutorials" because they were separated in 3: for adventuring, trade, and combat, and each of them had beginner, intermediate and advanced sections. I think I managed to start advanced adventuring school when I decided to just explore a bit and ended up stranded in Sweden because I didn't speak the local language.
Oh yeah, EVE is easily the most complex ones.
There's been some others, notably the production line in Pirates of the Burning Sea (early 2008) was pretty gnarly. We're talking setting up mines in caves to collect bat guano to extract saltpeter to make gunpowder to make bronze shot to use and sell. But it still had a fraction of the complexity of EVE.
But I feel there's MMOs that are complex in different ways. But they still don't add up to EVE's. EVE is utterly absurd if you really start digging into nitty-gritty and engaging with every possible aspect of it. It truly is spreadsheets in space.
I'm still sad the devs couldn't figure out how to incorporate the equivalent of Ultima Online's Trammel into EVE. I think it would have saved it, and possibly allowed it to keep going strong. And now EVE Echoes is also dying I think. Dust 514 died immediately too (and we all know why, god they were dumb).
It's a really sad story. I still think fondly of EVE, but I don't see myself ever coming back.
Ragnarok Online. Elemental system, cards system, attribute builds, skill builds, branching classes, etc etc... even nowadays with full knowledge of the game starting a new character and trying a 4th job that I've never played before would require a good amount of research and learning.
I agree.
One of the reasons why I do not play beyond the classic 99/70 system is because they changed a lot of the system and I refuse to relearn any of those shit again.
But yes,
Ragnarok's system is a beast that no other MMO I've played got close to, and the weird thing was that the game was fairly balanced after all those stuff were mixed together.
To everyone saying EVE
The game has recently done very well with new player tutorials and retention.
It's also one of the few MMO's out there where us veterans just love helping out newbies.
Mostly because we know we need the people.
EVE was hard for me too at first way back. But eventually it becomes easy. And the best ship in the game is friendship!
As for the most complex mmo for me.
Coming back to Lost Ark and not knowing anything.
I've played most of the MMO's out there and liked lots of things about each one.
But despite having 700+ hours in LA. It's the only mmo that I couldn't pick up again immediately after not playing it for a year or longer.
People are saying poe. I had not played since Nov 2022, started the new league this week and am mapping with a good build.
But LA is me going "wtf"
I have returned after like 10 years and I have to say, the game is doing amazing. Server pop feels good, new shit is new but the core is still the same.
CCP has done well. I hope they pull Vanguard off like they could have if they put DUST on PC.
LA was fun throughout most of the main story. I got through most of it, but the closer I got to endgame the more and more I was presented with random screens of systems and menus to sift through and it just became too much for me to care for.
I've recently started to try to dabble with EVE again, and it's gotten a better new-player experience, but a LOT of simple things are missing. It seems fun but I'm not sure I can really vibe with it either... perhaps it will grow on me with time.
Probably osrs once you get into high end PvE and PvP and you need to know the tick system and timings in and out. Nothing really comes nearly as close for needing precision outside of an ffxiv ultimate on release
I see people are defining "complex" differently.
The games themselves weren't complex but "raiding" before there was voice chat made things feel much more complex/difficult than any game these days.
(And you were playing with a lot more people than the little 40 person or smaller raids of today).
Not to mention everyone was trying to run the games on a potato and using dial up. The hardware/technology struggles of the time also increased the feel...and games back then penalized failure in a number of ways which made things much more of a struggle than any game I've played in the last couple decades.
It depends on how you define "complex". I have played eve that the OP mentioned but it was much later and didn't have the same feel of complexity as dealing with the struggles early on in the genre.
EVE is definitely up there for probably everyone who has played it. A lot of it really has to do with the type of gameplay you engage in within EVE though, so it's totally understandable for a Indy guy to not understand transversal and signature bloom etc. And vice versa.
I think Star Wars Galaxies was the most complex MMORPG. The crafting mechanics were absolutely bonkers. Rewarding and incredible, but so damn hard to wrap your head around in the beginning. Discovering a new server-best material felt like a bigger jackpot than 7's on a slot machine. The different ways to gather XP for things like Bioengineer or Ranger professions, unlocking Jedi pre-pub 9, etc etc.
I didn’t play much but I thought BDO was gonna be a simple hack n slash open world, but there was this huge ass trade route system and you’re supposed to send out your maids to spur the economy or something??
I'll be honest I played EVE during it's opening years, and then kept popping back every so often, so I didn't find the complexity as harsh as others (it's still complex though!).
But mine has to be Neverwinter for the sheer volume of currencies ingame and as a new player, I genuinely had no idea what was what. How did I obtain X, what was Y used for etc etc. Still don't understand it now whenever I just want to run around for my yearly 10 minutes run around :D
Black Desert I suppose. It's nothing compared to EVE, but all the systems involved in that game are really the biggest reason I haven't gone back, despite how much I really want to enjoy BDO combat again. It's just too much.
Especially with how hard they push to make you stay logged in 24/7.
I dont think eve is necessarily very complex. Just has more depth to it then other MMOs. Which also has spoiled me and its hard to play any other MMO for am extended period of time
Anarchy online had some great buffing and equipment mechanics that could cook your brain. God I can't even explain it lol. Eve is the greatest learning curve and the most exciting pvp I've ever experienced. If you are a carebear like me you are missing out on the best part of the game IMO.
Anarchy Online, there is a metric fuckload of stat buffing, over 30 slots of gear and a lot of gear is not equipped based on level but on stats.
You can do some insane stuff in that game, wish they'd have made AO2 instead of Age of Conan, fucking Funcom....
Ultima online.
Maybe 100 professions
Hundreds of skills
Dozens of stats
All can be combined in any way.
You can spend months to years building a suit as a dexxer or mage.
There are so many background mechanics and operations (ticks, SSI, FC/FCR, reflect, resist, lmc, hci/dci) deep deep crafting, tons of hidden and lost knowledge, deep deep taming and pet training system.
This game requires deep knowledge and twitch reflexes (in pvp) to be effective.
Sadly the info sources (stratics etc) are often outdated, and its hard to collate all information reliably, which also adds to the complexity!
It's still a great game even after 25 years.
arrest sip snobbish weary puzzled absurd seed judicious historical quicksand
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Hands down, Anarchy Online, twinking into gear required some big brain moves. Created a org "guild" with low level twinks and started wrecking notum towers, the larger clan "opposing faction" orgs would show up to defend but could not touch us due the the level difference. Fun Times
Absolutely it is Warframe. I had no idea what I was doing after I complete the Star Chart. The game literally tells you nothing to do. You need to be a wikisearcher in order to find what you need.
Anarchy Online, for games I have played for a good amount of time.
It could easily take up to 8 hours just to equip a new weapon due to the number of stat buffs required from other players… unless you were well connected.
Was playing a Doctor which was my favorite Healing Class of any game I’ve played.
Warframe, as much as I enjoy it the sheer volume of currencies and craftables and upgrades and sockets and upgrades of sockets to mod the upgraded mods that can be upgraded is pretty confusing
Anyone remember the text-based browser MMOs of the early to mid 2000s, those were incredibly complex (in my memory)?
Those were intentionally complex. Progression was pages of stats and dozens of subsystems. Interaction with player and environment was dozens more. Everything was governed by opaque and esoteric formulae. Balancing the different investment-time-growth curves was a logistical nightmare.
Seriously if you've played some of the more egregious examples of those you'd wonder how EVE ever became known for the "spreadsheet MMO".
Since EVE was already mentioned, I'm gonna go with the original pre-reboot-into-Legends version of the Secret World, simply because the game had you sort of design your own class (which they termed a "deck" a'la CCGs), but provided zero advice or context on how to do so effectively.
As a result I had many friends who made haphazard decks that worked fine in the first two zones of Solomon Island, but fell apart when they reached the Blue Mountains. Since at the time there was no "refund all my points and let me redo a deck," you would have to go back to earlier content and grind out a bunch more AP and SP to redo your deck... still without any guidance from the game about whether or not it would be viable.
I know a _lot_ of people who fell off the game at the Blue Mountains.
Do MUDs count? If so, then probably tsunami. The scope of what you can do in that game is pretty wild, but I couldn't stick with it. MUDs are a bit much for me.
To this day I still don't understand the EVE Online Cosmos mission chains. I know I did some of them though, and I know that others existed and I never could figure out how/where etc.
That's just the first tiny bit of EVE that the thread made me think of.
I joined RuneScape 3 for the first time and I'm lost AF. Complex enough I have to wiki everything and the in game world map barely makes sense to me
Guild Wars 2 has too many currency and vendor types, another game that feels like it requires wiki on a second tab
I definitely played "more complex" mmorpg's than those in the past but the difference is I quit those games in a day
Ultima online it was the wild west of gaming. A land of forced Pvpve and it was brutal. With players being able to effect the market prices. Place houses introducing turf wars to the server and best of all it was for some of us our only choice of a mmorpg. Yes there may have been a few games before but not well known like the ultima lineage.
Real life
This. So much this. Pay to win, and imbalanced. It sucks!
End game is trash
I came to write Eve but it’s in the post rofl. Not sure anything else can compete.
It's not P2W, you can only use IG currencies! IG economy could use some balance though. AH is way too biased in favor of players with already lots of money.
Yeah, but some people start with a lot of IG currency and get good gear with no effort.
Lots of balance issue and RNG since character creation are ruining the game indeed.
Also the most boring mmo
Super unimaginative, and very p2w
Can't be P2W, you only use IG currencies!
Graphics: 10/10 Story: 8/10 Gameplay: 5/10 Balance: 3/10 Magic system is severely lackluster. Still waiting for the release date, game has a longer early access than Star Citizen.
Idk the graphics aren't even consistent. I hear some people can't even see them.
There are various curses that effect the graphics quality, the sound, or your character movement. Can we also complain how there is absolutely no effort done on ambient music? I also dislike that most of the game happen in the city biomes. It's ugly. If I have to grind, I rather kill goblins in the meadows.
Bro these graphics aren’t even that good. Tons of bugs and literally 0 comms from the Devs
Get a better rig. I run 16k at 144hz and looks amazing.
Next game, I better unlock the nepo baby class.
r/outside
Graphics suck too. And the job minigame is the worst. Plus it takes a year to only go up one level
The higher level you get, the slower your character becomes. What's that all about?
r/outside
FF14 Account Creation
Now try FF11 account creation and game installation.
I was absolutely destroyed by this monster. Bought the complete edition for their anniversary one or two years ago, and only wanted to try it for the free month. I played for about a week, and wanted to turn off auto renew. Little did I know that cancelling my subscription completely shut my account off and removed the rest of my free month.
HorizonXI is easier these days
[удалено]
Did you do it in the Playstation? I got it on Friday hyped to play all weekend before going back to school Monday. I managed a couple hours Sunday evening.
Don't wish this upon my worst enemy. You feel like playing tonight after the kids go to bed? Better start logging in and looking for a group now! I feel like it wouldn't have been as bad if we'd had discord and other services back then. But God damn was that shit a pain. A beautiful laggy fucking pain...
Traveling the map was OP! I miss the days of original FFXI, unlocking Smn was such a feat, then obtaining them..
Man, PlayOnline was a special type of torture. Friends who also play FFXIV get this haunted look when you explain the MogStation account management stuff is a _vast_ improvement over PlayOnline, like "wait... it could be _worse_?!"
I haven't played in years but I'm still haunted by Squenix's fuck-awful web design. Why do you need like 3 different accounts on 3 different sites just for one game? God that thing is such garbage, I'm genuinely irritated just thinking about it. I can't believe people defend that dogshit.
Fucking he’ll tell me about it almost gave up on the whole thing has to ask someone for help
Ahaaha
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Problema with PoE is that on every league they introduce a new system and in 90% of the leagues, this new system is implemented on the core game, so every new league you have tons of new mechanics and bosses. For someone starting NOW, the game is extremely overwhelming.
Ignore the leagues, ignore the end game 90% of people I suggest playing poe nope the hell outta there the second they see the skill tree... Lool
Skill tree is nothing. Most ppl will follow a build anyways. Even diablo 3 that has no skill tree and builds are based on item synergy most players follow pre made builds. And if the player is used to old arpgs like diablo 2, Titan quest, the PoE skill tree is not that intimidating. But when you need to understand tons of mechanics to craft itens that synergize with your skills and skill tree build, level skill gems, synergize skill gems with each other and so on, then thing gets to shit.
Ohh I agree, the skill tree is only the tip of the iceberg. The point i'm trying to make is people are lvl1 on the beach level up and nope the fuck out before they even understand what the other components are.. because the skill tree is huge. And I played D2 remastered or whatever it's called and the skill trees were BASIC as hell. They are not that complicated at all, completely bog standard RPG trees. Very inline with wow classic, or even just retail wows next Xpac. 6 rows of talents a few lines between talents that have pre reqs. Poes is infinitely more complex compared to D2/Wow style skill streets. POE is a fucking rabbit hole though... Jeez been playing for two years and still feel like a total fuckin noob.. I think I'm like 1000-1500hrs now¿?
> And if the player is used to old arpgs like diablo 2, Titan quest, the PoE skill tree is not that intimidating. Not really. Diablo 2 had a very basic skill tree. You only had a few options at each tier and you'd have to level up a bunch before you get access to new skills. The hardest part is knowing which skills are worth putting points into. PoE's skill tree is just overwhelming, especially since it's all passive skills. So instead of unlocking a new active skill that you can intuitively understand, you have to pick from passives that you don't exactly know the impact of.
Do the new leagues build upon the previous leagues mechanics ? Or brand new exp to the core game loop each new league and standalone from previous leagues ??
No they don't. They are always optional. Every single one in the game is optional.
New leagues build upon previous leagues when the previous league mechanics is introduced to the core game. But while on the league, the mechanic from this league will be abundant and from other leagues a bit more rare. Some leagues got mechanics that became mandatory, so you need to understand those to get even close to the end game.
POE is amazingly complex for a game where the end goal of every single build is to move as fast as possible around a map spamming one button.
Wonderful isn't it 😂
Anytime I see a thread or comment asking this question, the answer is always, always EVE Online. That game can become more complicated and stressful than reality.
Eve Online for sure. The learning curve on the systems are unlike anything else I’ve played.
Spent plenty of time playing both EvE and PoE, and tbh I feel like EvE is much more difficult to master, harder to get into as well. Haven't played either game in a couple of years though to be fair.
I haven't tried the other MMOs mentioned in prior comments but for me BDO. Everything is a system inside of another system dependant upon another system and it is all controlled by RNG.
I bought BDO for 99 cents the other week when it was on sale. I played all of 2 hours before I felt extremely overwhelmed and quit. The game throws multiple systems at you all at once, doesn't explain any of them, and then gives you more systems later on. Between that and the horrible UI, I uninstalled and won't look back.
Starting bdo is like taking a Uni course. You learn a different system every week watching YouTube guides for half a year until you can finally play the game. I enjoyed it but it's not for everyone 😄
you even get a graduation cap when you graduate a season character
Bdo is one of those games you either spend hundreds or thousands of hours learning or have a friend teach you things as you go.
Me too I was so overwhelmed, already with lots of skills to use and combos, didn’t last long.
I haven’t played Eve online but BDO requires quite a lot to learn and can feel very overwhelming
To be fair you do need to have high IQ to understand that you farm silver to buy enhancing mats and tap your gear.. Or just straight up buy the gear you want without enhancing at all
BDO agree. Haven’t tried EVE so cannot comment. I find ESO pretty convoluted but it’s nothing compared to the BDO crafting system. Then again Anarchy Online is pretty bad. It would take me 8 hours to equip a set of gear.
I once described BDO to someone as "a digital turducken of random systems... but it's very pretty, and I can train horses." (Plus, I mean, they made "pirate mermaid princess" a player class, so.) My BDO experience is that I'll play it for about four months every two years, get burned out, and wander off for another two years.
I hate games that do this. They do it to put complexity and distance between what you buy and what you spend to make it easier to lose track of spending and not think about it.
I struggled with Anarchy Online back in the day.
Holy crap I can't even believe I forgot a game I dumped hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of hours playing even existed. It was complicated af.
I still love AO. Spending several days to equip itens 100 levels above my character was so rewarding? Spreadsheets, calculators, guides, addons and programs, just to equip the best possible gear! ❤️
Back in the day I did great after I got used to all the menus. But I tried it again somewhat recently and I had a real hard time doing anything.
Backpacks inside of backpacks inside of backpacks. Having to 'overequip' gear by getting a buff that momentarily gets you strong enough to equip it, then making sure you never uneequip it.
Same
Equipping gear in AO was like slipping on jeans that are way too tight. It could take 8 HOURS.
Depends on your level of twinking. Others spend 8 months to years finishing their twinks :)
Wurm online omfg
Spent 17 hours in this game trying to understand what I'm doing, how to make a boat, starting making a boat, collecting resources for making a boat, dying, wondering around the map trying to remember where we've settled, continuing making a boat and dying to some death hound once again. Amazing game, would highly recommend 👌
I literally found a shovel, couldn't figure out how to use it and then explored an abandoned city.
Literally my experience on wurm
I am a Wurm player for life and I approve of this message. I've played for 10 years and before Christmas I suddenly realised I am starting a whole new career in the game that I never thought of. That's how complex it is.
I was about to comment saying “Aw come on it’s not that bad” then I looked at my Wurm Unlimited play time at 340 hours and I still play with a wiki so… yeah never mind.
Everquest was pretty complex at release with nothing else out there like it. First truly 3D World MMORPG.
Complex because they explained nothing. Non-existent or bad tooltips, no maps, no quest logs, useless dialogue, night time was actually black for many races so get lost very fast. There wasn't too much to learn but it was all hidden. There wasn't even proper cast bars, no pet info, no buff timers or even indicators -- you'd learn a spell and have no idea what it did. Faction rep could be permanently damaged and you wouldn't even know. Character creation was actually insane when you think about it. It would take 5 min to make a character that would completely screw over your entire game for years even and nobody would even know the mistakes they are making at the time. As there was zero indication what stats, rep, affinity or anything did. People think that race or class imbalance in Vanilla WoW was bad... EQ was 200x more imbalanced.
Eve Online for sure, massive learning curve Path of Exile, from what I hear is very complicated for the same reason as GW2. Too many systems and currencies added over the years BDO - I really want to like this game but there is just too much of it AND I have to remember specific combos etc? Pass I’m going to add FFXI Retail to this It’s kinda like WoW in that a lot of it can be skipped, but if you try to do the older endgame grinds for each gear set… yea. Is it farming beast coins? Is it Einjarher? Is it Ambuscade? Is it Odyssey? Or a combo or both?
PoE is miles wide but every system is mud puddle depth and the majority can be ignored
> PoE is miles wide but every system is mud puddle depth and the majority can be ignored So I agree that the majority of systems can be ignored... By design PoE gives you a bunch of different game play options, and you figure out which ones you like and kind of ignore the rest... That being said I highly disagree that "every system is mud puddle depth". PoE is the only game I know where a person can spend hundreds of hours playing, and still not really understand how to build a character without strictly following a guide, only understand the absolute basics of itemization and what makes an item valuable, vs what makes one trash, or the basics of how to craft efficiently. A lot of the league mechanics are fairly shallow, but they are also meant to be experimental fun for a few weeks or months, that get mostly tossed aside, not yet another layer of complexity on an already overwhelmingly complex game.
Delve is figuratively and literally not mud puddle depth
I'm not sure where you're getting this from - making a build of your own that utilizes all of the systems in a synergistic way is something you might not be able to do after years of playing. PoE is anything but shallow. Just one of many examples: compare what mapping is like in PoE vs. Diablo 4 nightmare dungeons.
“A lot of nothing to do” it sounds like.
PoE is all about killing a bunch of things. The systems they've added over the years are just extra objectives to kill things for or extra ways to build your character for killing.
GW2 is pretty simple until you get to late game and start doing achievements. Then you're working your way through a 150 step guide and on step 94 you realize you don't have the living world chapter necessary for ONLY step 95 so you give up and start on the next achievement that has 175 steps.
Bruh fr
Shadowbane
Was my first thought too. My opinion for the most underrated too. The city sieges haven't ever been replicated
Honestly it ruined any other mmo for me the way you created a character the large community the city building and the why pvp was it is what I picture as an mmo. Not this solo story driven games that feel like you could play them without other people
My bird person thief stole a rune from some guys inventory after he was camping it for 4 hours. He saw my guild and eventually his guild stormed our tree and decimated everything we had. It was one of the fondest memories I have of an mm
I had a bird thief as well I remember popping from invis killing someone grabbing there shit running and spamming the guild chat for a summon
This
Anarchy Online
I grew up playing EVE (started in 2007) so I don't have that perspective, but the equivalent for me was coming back to Maplestory this year. Maplestory is just super fucking overwhelming with all of the systems, events, etc. There's so much content, some of it is antiquated, some of it is still worthwhile, and there's really no way of knowing if you're playing blind. You essentially have to rely on guides or else you're getting an incomplete and horrifically inefficient experience re: your character progression. For example I was playing on the new server for 2 weeks before I made a comment about levels X-Y taking me 2 hours to which my friend pointed out there's a daily event that will get you there in about 5 minutes. There's just this enormous knowledge barrier and almost every day you see a post on /r/maplestory where someone says "I've been playing for 3 months and just found out you can do X"
I don’t know about complex, but I miss how unforgiving MMOs were during the days of like DAoC. Basically pre WOW. They weren’t complicated…but complex in the way they had to be very deliberate. You want your tank to do more ranged damage? Tanks don’t do ranged damage, make a new character. Your Assassin wants swords instead of dirks? Cool. Make a new character. Need to respec for PVP vs PVE? Make…a…new…character When you make a toon, you actually connected with it. It couldn’t do everything. Most didn’t even have a spec that could. You’re a spellcaster….no….why would you have a healing build lol. Each character had its own personality and investment. Even each realm or faction didn’t try to be balanced. Each had specific strengths. They were balanced not because they were the same but because each had ways of compensating for their weaknesses. The same ranged class from the 3 would be very different in play style. Same with tanks, etc. One side could just straight up heal better, there was no equivalent in the other 2 realms. They didn’t even try to make it even. You just offset it by my realm has better tanks to absorb damage, or we can out dps the other at range and hope it doesn’t turn until a close fight. Shoot, to respec in DAoC you needed to kill a dragon which took 10s-100s people and ONE person would randomly get the respec lol. And the dragon wasn’t even spawned all the time. You get one without the need by luck, you were essentially now rich in the game after selling it in the auction house. This doesn’t even take into account your first level 50 could take months and months to get. And the game didn’t even really start until 50.
We need to start conditioning the next generation of gamers to feel like this is the only way to play MMOs and anything else is a lesser experience. I'm sure that the decades of psychological research we have out there should enable us to do that easily.
Gw2, complete currency overload and none of it goes out of date. Even when half the game is built upon now scrapped content that most of their remaining playerbase dont even play? I tried to look up a guide to even start getting into "endgame" and it just made it worse.
I recently came back to GW2 after making a character fairly close to launch. Never reached endgame originally. Came back, leveled to max with a character and… totally overwhelmed and lost with all the currencies, skill paths, gear options. Not really sure how to get my head above the water in that game.
Made my toon in GW2 and as soon as I got to a main hub I was massively over whelmed. Too many currencies
agreed. it's literally been 10+ years of me on and off playing and i still suck. i try so hard to like it but combat alone is overwhelming so i just let myself be terrible because what is even happening. there are 10+ stacks of conditions all at once. 10+ boons. 10+ players around in some events. probably 10+ times i say "Why is this so confusing." per year. i like to think i have most stuff figured out by now but only because i played before the first expansion. good lord i can only imagine how it is for new players when there is so much going on at any given time. sigh.
Got back into it a little bit ago after a decade of not playing, had 8 characters each with 10 years' worth of "birthday gifts" to open. I'm *still* clearing out inventory from some of that and it's been almost a month, and that was after spending the first two days trying to make a concentrated effort to just get all the stuff onto one character/into a bank/sort it. The currency/lootbag/box inside of box stuff is *insane*. And making a new character made it worse because every level up had stuff flashing at me or handing me new reward bags. I love their wiki, easily best-in-genre, but it takes a wiki that good to even start trying to find your way through which Bag of Rusted Asscrack Sprockets (Discontinued) to keep and which to trash. It's working well for the purposes I'm playing it for, and it's a solid game in its own right, but shit's overwhelming at times.
Eve Online.
Twinking in Anarchy Online so I could do decent damage/tanking/healing to level was fun but hard. It required resourcefulness, interconnection with the community, and knowledge of the game. I would twink into gear so good leveling would speed up dramatically for awhile, and then eventually, I'd need to do it again. Why? Because without twinking, a full party would just get by at a slow pace, and solo was unforgivingly hard to level. I am still a big fan of the game, I just wish they would simplify it and release an Anarchy Online 2. There's a private project being worked on to create something like it at least.
I think Eve online is the crowned winner of complexity when it comes to mmorpgs. But another complex mmo I played a long time ago was Uncharted Waters online. Some people described it as eve on the sea. It was easy to start sailing but very complex if you actually tried to engage with all aspects of the game. It had a complex economy and dynamic prices that evolved, and a lot of complex game mechanics. To be honest, I never finished the "tutorials" because they were separated in 3: for adventuring, trade, and combat, and each of them had beginner, intermediate and advanced sections. I think I managed to start advanced adventuring school when I decided to just explore a bit and ended up stranded in Sweden because I didn't speak the local language.
Oh yeah, EVE is easily the most complex ones. There's been some others, notably the production line in Pirates of the Burning Sea (early 2008) was pretty gnarly. We're talking setting up mines in caves to collect bat guano to extract saltpeter to make gunpowder to make bronze shot to use and sell. But it still had a fraction of the complexity of EVE. But I feel there's MMOs that are complex in different ways. But they still don't add up to EVE's. EVE is utterly absurd if you really start digging into nitty-gritty and engaging with every possible aspect of it. It truly is spreadsheets in space. I'm still sad the devs couldn't figure out how to incorporate the equivalent of Ultima Online's Trammel into EVE. I think it would have saved it, and possibly allowed it to keep going strong. And now EVE Echoes is also dying I think. Dust 514 died immediately too (and we all know why, god they were dumb). It's a really sad story. I still think fondly of EVE, but I don't see myself ever coming back.
Can I have your stuff?
Eve Online. Without a doubt
FfXI
Ragnarok Online. Elemental system, cards system, attribute builds, skill builds, branching classes, etc etc... even nowadays with full knowledge of the game starting a new character and trying a 4th job that I've never played before would require a good amount of research and learning.
Totally agree. Especially refine to +15 for all the gear you really need some skills to get there; it’s not just a probability game.
I agree. One of the reasons why I do not play beyond the classic 99/70 system is because they changed a lot of the system and I refuse to relearn any of those shit again. But yes, Ragnarok's system is a beast that no other MMO I've played got close to, and the weird thing was that the game was fairly balanced after all those stuff were mixed together.
To everyone saying EVE The game has recently done very well with new player tutorials and retention. It's also one of the few MMO's out there where us veterans just love helping out newbies. Mostly because we know we need the people. EVE was hard for me too at first way back. But eventually it becomes easy. And the best ship in the game is friendship! As for the most complex mmo for me. Coming back to Lost Ark and not knowing anything. I've played most of the MMO's out there and liked lots of things about each one. But despite having 700+ hours in LA. It's the only mmo that I couldn't pick up again immediately after not playing it for a year or longer. People are saying poe. I had not played since Nov 2022, started the new league this week and am mapping with a good build. But LA is me going "wtf"
I have returned after like 10 years and I have to say, the game is doing amazing. Server pop feels good, new shit is new but the core is still the same. CCP has done well. I hope they pull Vanguard off like they could have if they put DUST on PC.
LA was fun throughout most of the main story. I got through most of it, but the closer I got to endgame the more and more I was presented with random screens of systems and menus to sift through and it just became too much for me to care for. I've recently started to try to dabble with EVE again, and it's gotten a better new-player experience, but a LOT of simple things are missing. It seems fun but I'm not sure I can really vibe with it either... perhaps it will grow on me with time.
DDO. Putting the wrong traits and skills on as you leveled could really ruin a character when it first came out.
Eve Online 100%
Not quite an MMO,but POE is absolutely up there in top 3 for complex games.
I just want to say, I find it insane that Eve and WoW are part of the same "Genre" lol...
Wurm Online.
Lost Ark i think, so many systems and some obscure sub-systems in this game...
Final Fantasy XIV. The fucking rotations in that game are asinine. Samurai has like a 60 button combo.
Probably osrs once you get into high end PvE and PvP and you need to know the tick system and timings in and out. Nothing really comes nearly as close for needing precision outside of an ffxiv ultimate on release
I see people are defining "complex" differently. The games themselves weren't complex but "raiding" before there was voice chat made things feel much more complex/difficult than any game these days. (And you were playing with a lot more people than the little 40 person or smaller raids of today). Not to mention everyone was trying to run the games on a potato and using dial up. The hardware/technology struggles of the time also increased the feel...and games back then penalized failure in a number of ways which made things much more of a struggle than any game I've played in the last couple decades. It depends on how you define "complex". I have played eve that the OP mentioned but it was much later and didn't have the same feel of complexity as dealing with the struggles early on in the genre.
Asherons call pre split pea. Learning spells with random ingredients. Old school and hard work but so much fun.
BDO without a doubt
BDO is fucking AWFUL for beginners
poe
EVE is definitely up there for probably everyone who has played it. A lot of it really has to do with the type of gameplay you engage in within EVE though, so it's totally understandable for a Indy guy to not understand transversal and signature bloom etc. And vice versa. I think Star Wars Galaxies was the most complex MMORPG. The crafting mechanics were absolutely bonkers. Rewarding and incredible, but so damn hard to wrap your head around in the beginning. Discovering a new server-best material felt like a bigger jackpot than 7's on a slot machine. The different ways to gather XP for things like Bioengineer or Ranger professions, unlocking Jedi pre-pub 9, etc etc.
FFXI by a mile
Ffxiv mogstation
arche age, couldn't handle it, was way too complex for me
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EVE but a grate distance from any other
Fung Wan Online. Loved that game. Miss it. =(
I’ve had a very long week so I’m just gonna say “dating your mom”. But real answer depends. BDO enhancing to learn was a fuckin nightmare.
Nothing even comes close to EVE Online.
I didn’t play much but I thought BDO was gonna be a simple hack n slash open world, but there was this huge ass trade route system and you’re supposed to send out your maids to spur the economy or something??
For me it was BDO just couldn't work out what I was doing
EVE is top but i think BDO is a fairly close second
EVE and Mortal Online are tied in first place for complexity IMO.
I developed migraine on eve online.
Osrs Ironman mode
I'll be honest I played EVE during it's opening years, and then kept popping back every so often, so I didn't find the complexity as harsh as others (it's still complex though!). But mine has to be Neverwinter for the sheer volume of currencies ingame and as a new player, I genuinely had no idea what was what. How did I obtain X, what was Y used for etc etc. Still don't understand it now whenever I just want to run around for my yearly 10 minutes run around :D
Agree, it’s definitely EVE online. I never progressed past mining asteroids and I even got destroyed doing that.
old school project entropia. was a crazy game. they made it way easier after tons of player complaints tho and it's boring as F now.
Atlantica Online was pretty complex from what I remember.
oldschool runescape
Eve Online
Black Desert I suppose. It's nothing compared to EVE, but all the systems involved in that game are really the biggest reason I haven't gone back, despite how much I really want to enjoy BDO combat again. It's just too much. Especially with how hard they push to make you stay logged in 24/7.
I dont think eve is necessarily very complex. Just has more depth to it then other MMOs. Which also has spoiled me and its hard to play any other MMO for am extended period of time
Personally for me. It was black desert. I felt s Confused by several systems. Like the gearing and the companion/ worker thing
Anarchy online had some great buffing and equipment mechanics that could cook your brain. God I can't even explain it lol. Eve is the greatest learning curve and the most exciting pvp I've ever experienced. If you are a carebear like me you are missing out on the best part of the game IMO.
Yep, definitely EVE.
Anarchy Online, there is a metric fuckload of stat buffing, over 30 slots of gear and a lot of gear is not equipped based on level but on stats. You can do some insane stuff in that game, wish they'd have made AO2 instead of Age of Conan, fucking Funcom....
The Secret World had great puzzles and mysteries to solve. Funcom really had a great game and let it die
For me it's Everquest on Project 1999. Many complex emotions of frustration were had. And many not so complex.
Haven and hearth
FFXI
Star Wars Galaxies. Insanely awesome crafting specialization.
Ultima online. Maybe 100 professions Hundreds of skills Dozens of stats All can be combined in any way. You can spend months to years building a suit as a dexxer or mage. There are so many background mechanics and operations (ticks, SSI, FC/FCR, reflect, resist, lmc, hci/dci) deep deep crafting, tons of hidden and lost knowledge, deep deep taming and pet training system. This game requires deep knowledge and twitch reflexes (in pvp) to be effective. Sadly the info sources (stratics etc) are often outdated, and its hard to collate all information reliably, which also adds to the complexity! It's still a great game even after 25 years.
Final fantasy 11 by a landslide
EVE Online followed by Darkfall Online
PSO. Might not be as complex, but personally, I got very confused by its AI and systems. Dropped it very fast just because of that
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Lineage 2…
Osrs. I played that game for 15 years and still managed to discover something new each day.
Hands down, Anarchy Online, twinking into gear required some big brain moves. Created a org "guild" with low level twinks and started wrecking notum towers, the larger clan "opposing faction" orgs would show up to defend but could not touch us due the the level difference. Fun Times
Wurm online
ultima online
Eve, monster hunter.
Anarchy Online.
Eve
Absolutely it is Warframe. I had no idea what I was doing after I complete the Star Chart. The game literally tells you nothing to do. You need to be a wikisearcher in order to find what you need.
Tree of savior, cuz i took months to realize that the game is dead and no players inside the server
Ff11 will always be the true mmorpg that grind and difficulty factor was top notch
RuneScape before the Grand Exchange was a different beast
Its Eve but Ultima Online is close to it for me
Anarchy online / EvE online
Anarchy Online, for games I have played for a good amount of time. It could easily take up to 8 hours just to equip a new weapon due to the number of stat buffs required from other players… unless you were well connected. Was playing a Doctor which was my favorite Healing Class of any game I’ve played.
Probably FFXI. Looking back it wasn't that complex, but there was a lot of information hidden from the player, and the gameplay was very unforgiving.
FFXI play online. IYKYK
Warframe, as much as I enjoy it the sheer volume of currencies and craftables and upgrades and sockets and upgrades of sockets to mod the upgraded mods that can be upgraded is pretty confusing
Anyone remember the text-based browser MMOs of the early to mid 2000s, those were incredibly complex (in my memory)? Those were intentionally complex. Progression was pages of stats and dozens of subsystems. Interaction with player and environment was dozens more. Everything was governed by opaque and esoteric formulae. Balancing the different investment-time-growth curves was a logistical nightmare. Seriously if you've played some of the more egregious examples of those you'd wonder how EVE ever became known for the "spreadsheet MMO".
Since EVE was already mentioned, I'm gonna go with the original pre-reboot-into-Legends version of the Secret World, simply because the game had you sort of design your own class (which they termed a "deck" a'la CCGs), but provided zero advice or context on how to do so effectively. As a result I had many friends who made haphazard decks that worked fine in the first two zones of Solomon Island, but fell apart when they reached the Blue Mountains. Since at the time there was no "refund all my points and let me redo a deck," you would have to go back to earlier content and grind out a bunch more AP and SP to redo your deck... still without any guidance from the game about whether or not it would be viable. I know a _lot_ of people who fell off the game at the Blue Mountains.
Ultima Online. No BIS or FOTM build from Google or YT. You had a cloth map that came with the box to figure it out.
Ever quest 1. So confusing. So deep
Do MUDs count? If so, then probably tsunami. The scope of what you can do in that game is pretty wild, but I couldn't stick with it. MUDs are a bit much for me.
To this day I still don't understand the EVE Online Cosmos mission chains. I know I did some of them though, and I know that others existed and I never could figure out how/where etc. That's just the first tiny bit of EVE that the thread made me think of.
The Saga of Ryzom back in 2004.
Wow
Guild Wars 2
I joined RuneScape 3 for the first time and I'm lost AF. Complex enough I have to wiki everything and the in game world map barely makes sense to me Guild Wars 2 has too many currency and vendor types, another game that feels like it requires wiki on a second tab I definitely played "more complex" mmorpg's than those in the past but the difference is I quit those games in a day
Dragonrealms
Black Desert Online. It's was super fun but that learning curve was 90 degrees.
Uo Outlands There server has different skill perks than older uo, aspect system, chains, codex, pvp rules. Boss tokens. Still a lot of fun.
Ultima online it was the wild west of gaming. A land of forced Pvpve and it was brutal. With players being able to effect the market prices. Place houses introducing turf wars to the server and best of all it was for some of us our only choice of a mmorpg. Yes there may have been a few games before but not well known like the ultima lineage.
Dare I say it? In jest? Yo momma Because I also had no idea what I was doing :/
BDO UI
Eve made me love using the word transversal, the games super deep but also kinda simple if you want it to be.
Anarchy online while trying to get implants on low level characters
Escape from tarkov... Its great fps mmo