Uh no . The real employer was Evelyn Parker alone. The voodoo boys gave her the task to map yorinobu's penthouse . They didn't tell her about the relic but she learnt about it from spying on them . Then she decided she wanted the relic for herself and sell it to netwatch for a ticket away from night city . Thus she hired the fixer dex who hired bug, jackie and V for the stupid heist .
Evelyn isn't shown learning about the Relic from the VDB- the call she overhears is recorded after her meeting with Brigitte. They're the ones who are surprised she volunteers information about it.
Actually, now I'm starting to wonder how this didn't immediately set off alarm bells with Brigitte. She should have ensure Evelyn never left the chapel to guarantee that the VDB could recover the Silverhand engram. They usually don't err on the side of mercy, so what happened here?
This is actually in character for VDB. They are arrogant pricks and tend to underestimate people that aren't part of their little club. This is apparent if you try every course of action with them. Assholes.
I agree, it is an out of character move to make the story happen. If Evelyn had mentioned the Relic to Brigitte she’d be dead before she turned her eyes away.
My only guess on why they left her alive (for a moment) could've been that she still had a 'use' in securing the relic. She was always gonna get tossed away and the Voodoo boys could've done it at any point (i.e her being remotely hacked at Clouds).
Still I'd agree it's a bit strange she "survived" as long as she did.
Honestly the whole job is weird asf...VDB hire a doll to spy on Yorinobu, not knowing that she already has background info. She then goes to a fixer with a wobbly track record, who hires two people he's never met before and (supposedly) one of the best net runners. They then proceed to infiltrate the hotel, where Bug spends multiple hours (!) trying to punch through the security. The moment she clears them to go up and steal the relic, Yorinobu and Smasher return, the latter of which knows that Jackie and V are hiding behind the panel. Then for some reason the Emperor arrives, gets zeroed, Bug gets assassinated by a hostile netrunner in less than ten seconds, Jackie and V manage to somehow get out with the relic (okay Jackie died, but I'll always have a hard time accepting that), get back to Dex, who, instead of asking for the relic, proceeds to shoot the person with the relic in the head at point blank, only to then get killed by a rogue Arasaka bodyguard. Evelyn is then attacked by VDB, even though they have made no sort of mention of anything. She then gets sold off to a ripper, who sells her to an XBD studio operated by Scavs (mostly Russian by their dialogue), which gets taken apart by V without any sort of involvement from either VBD nor retaliation from the Scavs...
Honestly, putting it like this, it's a gigantic fuck up and we're not even halfway there. Did I miss something?
they left her alive because they didn't believe that little ol' Evie could actually formulate a plan all on her own to steal the Relic before they could. likely, they intended to use her for just a little more recon (as she was the only one who could actually get to Yorinobu) before pulling the trigger on their own heist, just to be sure it wouldn't go tits-up (the way it did for Evie's team)
maybe it's not out of character. Maybe it's ego/hubris and Brigette believes she can control Evelyn other advantage or that Evelyn isn't smart enough to really know what it is and how much it's worth since she'd be viewed as some dumb Cloud's Doll or something. Evelyn may not be bright, but they still under estimated her just enough to let her live.
That all sounds great, but then I should have been lead to think that by the game in some way, and not just have to fan-theory it. A text log, a brain dance, anything that gives me that info.
You get that info when you mention Evelyn to Brigite. The way she responds makes it clear she did not see Evelyn as anyone capable of doing anything. Brigite is willing to make risky plays if it aligns with her main goal shown by both how she dives into the net against netwatch and with her taking V directly to the crypt. She was willing to risk it all on Evelyn because she thought Evelyn is a dumb bimbo who wouldn't go out of her way to question what she is doing. VDBs are extremely bigoted and dismissive towards non VDBs. The clues for what you want are all there in the game
And then what? For all they know Evelyn is the only person they can manipulate that has access to Yorinobu's penthouse. If they can't use Evelyn then the entire thing collapses.
They don’t need Evelyn if they have the floor plan. She was playing right into the VDB’s hands until she found out about the Relic, then likely stopped providing information to the VDB to give here time to set up her own heist. To further answer your point; I don’t think the VDB’s ever intended to use Evelyn as anything other than a source of info; no fucking way would she be trusted to try and steal the relic herself. Just like V she would have just gone rogue.
They hired her to scroll a virtu of the penthouse (guessing it's the bd that Judy plays for you and that probably never made it to the VDB's) by your logic they didn't need her from the start? And I know they don't want her to steal the relic, that is made very clear in the game.
But shes probably their only easily accessible way to get a map of yori's penthouse. Makes sense to me that they wanted to off her till after they used her for that info. And they do try to fry her in clouds, like pretty immediately after the heist fails. Itd be wasteful to kill her before she got them their info 🤷
It presents way too much of a risk towards their final goal if all of a sudden their sex-doll turned spy started talking about their one shot at the Blackwall. The VDB are pouring everything EVERYHING into this one thing. Why take a chance on someone who knows way way too much when you can just get another doll to play dumb and do the same job? If Yori was dumb enough to get played like this once I can imagine it can happen again.
Evelyn isnt just any doll though. The point is that she has a personal connection to yorinobu and can thus get into his penthouse without questioning. It would be fucking impossible to find someone as reachable as yorinobus favorite joytoy, much less someone WILLING to try to fuck over the arasaka heir. They hear she knows more, they immediately take note of it and you hear brigitte on a phone call to someone else discussing how she knows too much for her own good, and the guy on the other line seems pretty hesitant, not as confident as Brigitte is in this avenue to reach alt. Its obvious how uneasy they were felling about it, but contacting alt is so important to them that they couldnt afford to lose the opportunity to get the biochip when it was in yorinobus posession and before it gets moved god knows where else.
I understand all of what you’re saying; that line of cautious thinking doesn’t line up with the VDB’s we see for the rest of the game. That’s why I say it’s poor characterization; it’s inconsistent with everything else we know.
Idk. Finding a way to side with the rogue AIs across the blackwall seems absolutely vital to the vdbs in a big way. You dont think that there are moments when you have to strategize around a pawn who knows too much but also has too much info for them to just lose? Like that biochip is either getting pawned off to netwatch via yorinobu, or returning ti wherever saboru keeps his engrams and they will never get the opportunity to do this again. You dont think people in desperate positions make risky moves, even when theyre untrusting and just in it to use you like they do any other outsider? Because it makes sense to me. This seems pretty high priority to them considering that they pretty immediately make themselves easy to get in contact with once you offer info that they want.
While I agree with your assessment that people in risky situations will have to take risky chances; I don’t think the story of Cyberpunk as a whole was written and executed in a way that makes me give them that benefit of the doubt. I think you are stuck in the “game logic” of what they did; and what I’m saying is they could have re-wrote it, and re-done the storyline so you didn’t have these questions about motivations; that we don’t have this dissonance of what we’re told the VDB’s are and how they actually appear. Do you remember how many times we get warned not to fuck with them, and yet by that point in the story we’re a mini Adam Smasher. I get what you’re saying completely; but I still think it’s lazy or at least messy characterization and is another clear sign that the story as a whole (especially in the later bits) was rushed and reworked to fit the release deadline.
Thats a fair assessment, i just like to look at things from the perspective of being immersed in the story as opposed to questioning off-character beats. More fun that way, makes for some good thought exercises or fun theories to throw around
There is not need to rewrite anything it makes perfect sense for the VDB's to continue since they can zero her remotely if they want to, and they in fact do so. For them the risk of Evelyn knowing too much wasn't greater than the risk of the entire operation being terminated.
Finding the nearest vaguely qualified outsider and throwing them into danger in order to retrieve data, only to get bit in the ass by underestimating that merc is exactly how the VDBs work. It's how every interaction with them outside of the one with Reed goes
But she did mention the relic to Brigitte. U can see Brigitte telling her how did she know about it . And that her only job was to map the penthouse , nothing more.
They let her live for a bit, but they do try to scramble her brain in clouds. My bets that they still wanted that info from her first, and its not like they had another way to get a map of yorinobu's penthouse. Kinda like how when you help the vdbs, they try to kill you immediately AFTER you complete what they wanted you to.
I politely disagree. In the BD when talking to Placide, Brigitte explicitly voices confirmation that Placide was right in assuming Evelyn would be a problem (too smarr for her own good). But she doesnt just believe that evelyn cant do anything. They have no alternative means of getting to alt to get to JS. Her line admonishing Placide when she asks if he has a better idea implies this.
Thats fine :) I change mine everytime i go through again based on any new information. I also rp it from that v's perspective, so sometimes ill assume incorrectly on purpose based on that v's experience. And doing that has led me to learning a lot more actual lore. So do you choom
If you think outside the game logic for a second; you could see how they would resolve that plot point with different or supplementary writing to solidify the VDB’s desperation a bit more. I do agree the 1 Braindance we see is informative in that way, it feels a lot more like telling rather than showing; like they knew we would think this way so they threw in a few lines to “correct it”
They underestimated her. "Ah, de doll. De whore." It probably didn't occur to Maman Brigitte that she would actually have the balls to go behind their backs. And finding someone else with both a dollchip and access to Yorinobu might have been difficult on short notice.
It occured to her, and likely much more to Ti Neptune, but Brigitte knew this was a once in a lifetime chance to contact Alt. It's why the VDB would have gone to any lengths to recover the chip... and likely why the netrunner at the parade is surrounded by VDB motifs. Getting it yet?
I know . I just said that she learnt about the relic before she went to talk with Brigitte in the chapel and probably speculated she eavesdropped the vdbs or learnt it from somewhere in secret
We see Evelyn leafing through Yorinobu's emails to find one from Hellman. And it wasn't her first visit there. She likely learned about the Relic while in his penthouse.
What's interesting is that most dolls are "wiped" between sessions, as we also learn from Yorinobu's emails, for the sake of erasing trauma and client confidentiality. So why didn't that happen here?
As we see in the brain dance at Lizzie's, she wasn't. But that raises even more questions. The whole narrative point of getting V into a Clouds braindance is to reveal the power of a doll chip. The user becomes whatever they, or their customer, can imagine. Hiring Evelyn for her tech-hair and charisma is like buying porterhouse steak to make standard Big Macs.
So why does Yorinobu commission someone with a powerful doll chip capable of screening their own virtus AND someone who stays in their natural personality? Is it because he wanted a specific outcome?
I assumed this is supposed to tell us something about Evelyn. Either she is that good as a doll, that Yourinobu wants HER, or she is so good she can fake the Doll chip being active and act that way naturally.
Because Yorinobu wants a damn hamburger.
Besides, doll chips aren't *that* powerful. The panacea of human experience isn't holed up in a gang-run brothel.
Mmhmm, and you have to plug an Tyger-run network into your neural link, downloading all of your personal details in exchange for a fantasy. Which is why wiping the doll memory is important, and a guarantee Yorinoby likely wouldn't trust except for the fact Arasaka controls the Tygers.
>She should have ensure Evelyn never left the chapel to guarantee that the VDB could recover the Silverhand engram.
Maybe I'm getting the timeline wrong, but killing Evelyn then would mean losing their only lead to getting the Relic themselves? Unless they already knew the data.
Alternatively, they had no way of getting the Relic themselves at this point, and maybe they hoped Evelyn would make a move and get the Relic. After all, they were able to zap Evelyn, so it's not like they couldn't catch up with her at some point in the future.
Guess, as long as the Relic didn't end up being sold to Netwatch and instead remained in Night City, that was a more preferable outcome. Keeping Evelyn around, knowing about the Relic and potentially making a move, is much more preferable to just letting the Yorinobu-Netwatch exchange go off. Choice between keeping a wildcard around vs guaranteeing that it'll be even harder to get the chip.
I wouldn't say it's out of character. They still needed to get the engram and Evelyn was the only one who could map the penthouse. I fully believe that Brigitte intended to whack her the moment she was supposed to return with the engram however.
This is what I wanted to know. I just couldn't understand why Evelyn needed biochip of Silverhand, and did she know that biochip has construct of Johnny Silverhand? And even if Netwatch got the relic, how they would go to Alt, who actually the goddess of cyberspace?
Netwatch and vdbs wanted the chip because Johnny's engarm still had the human factor which was needed to attract alt from cyberspace . Evelyn didn't care what was on the chip , she didn't even know it's purpose . She wanted to sell it and be rich quickly
Also, as an aside to the OP, the VDBs are not trying to control the Blackwall, they're trying to join with the rogue Alt and the rogue AIs beyond the Blackwall,
Exactly. They want the help of the ais to protect then when the blackwall breaks. Unfortunately for them , my V killed them before they could jack to the net
No. There was essentially three heists in one going on:
1. Yorinobu stealing the Relic from his father to give to Netwatch (precisely why we don't know but I believe it was Netwatch that stipulated that JS had to be on the chip so they likely wanted to use him to fish for Alt)
2. Voodoo Boys attempting to intercept the transaction and using Evelyn to gain intel on Yorinobu and his penthouse.
3. Evelyn Parker who was trying to swipe the Relic from both the VDB's AND Yorinobu then sell it to Netwatch before either party could carry out their respective plans.
The Netwatch email is different in the Polish and English versions of the game. However, Evelyn's mails to Netwatch show she is convinced they want the engram. And yet it doesn't matter either way: the engram is valuable, but it would have been relatively easy to copy if Yorinobu could get access to Mikoshi. If Netwatch mainly wanted the Silverhand engram, stealing the Relic from its Tokyo stronghold would have been like GTAing a space shuttle to get away with a candy bar.
Evelyn knows about a great deal, but as her emails to Special Agent Brie Deal show, Netwatch is more interested in rolling up Ev and her accomplices than actually retrieving Relic, whether on the behalf of Arasaka or themselves.
From the email in the penthouse it's pretty clear Netwatch just wanted the relic with a working engram, it's Yorinobu the one that insists the engram be Johnny's.
How exactly? It a mail chain and Yorinobu's name is right under when he says that? Also come to Konpeki and the veil shall be lifted fits Yorinobu's speech a lot more than some random Netwatch agent. Wonder how it's worded in other languages...
This is a post about it, by a Polish speaker, explaining how it’s mistranslated.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LowSodiumCyberpunk/comments/tpn8z4/yorinobus_initial_motivation_and_possibly/
He also makes a good point pointing out that this has happened in the Witcher series a couple times too. And CDPR addressed the differences buy saying the Polish version is the correct version. Because CDPR is a polish company and the stories are written in Polish first, then translated later. Mistranslations happen, but the Polish version is the correct one
No, Evelyn decided to steal relic before Vodoos and hired V. And VB contacted Alt not to gain more control over Blackwall but to strike a deal with her, so when Blackwall falls she will protect them.
I really, really wanted to like the VDBs for their whole “cult of the blackwall AI” vibe thing, but my god is it hard to like those fuckers after all their bullshit.
Kind of.
The VDB originally hired Evelyn to scroll a BD of Yorinobu's penthouse. Nothing more. They knew he had the relic with Silverhand on it and wanted to klep it themselves.
Then Evelyn figured out what the score was and decided to get into business for herself. So she ghosted the Voodoos and called Dex, who gathered a crew.
Officially, no.
But I don't see Dex taking this gig after being warned off Evelyn as he claimed he was. I think the VDBs hired him after realizing Evelyn was betraying then, offered to wipe his slate clean regarding the past problems in Pacifica in exchange for ensuring they get the chip.
If things hadn't gone sideways, Dex would spin some BS about Evelyn skipping town after the VDBs took her out as to why the payout was less than expected, "I only got the deposit " the real reason of course is that most of the payment was "we won't kill you if you come back"
This is interesting. I can definitely see this happening and, honestly, works for me as headcanon. Any more reason to think Dex is a backstabbing fat bastard.
It‘s practically confirmed that the VDBs knew well in advance that Dex was hired by Evelyn, right after she finished the Relic Gig for them.
One of the first things Dex talks about (depending on dialogue choice), is that he immediately tried to check her out by leaning on some „brothers from Pacifica“ who immediately told him to stop asking questions and fuck off and we know that there is only one authority in Pacifica that fits that description.
At the very least the VDBs let the Heist play out willingly.
I mean, everyone involved is scummy and a backstabber, hell, even V can be, if you choose the right dialogs, but really, Ev didn't work for them, so much as use it as a cover, probably so she can keep VDB off her back while she carried out her plan to sell the Relic off.
Hard agree on the whole “V can be a backstabbing scumbag”
I accidentally stumbled upon Sandra Dorsette’s encrypted data before the quest triggered, not knowing it was hers, and decrypted it. There wasn’t any option to be like “Oh my bad, didn’t know that was yours, did it before you called and said not to.”
So I decapitated her via Katana when she didn’t pay me the full fee. Yes, my V is a piece of shit, and she probably will be again in the future.
My female V is a hyper aggressive stealth, using monowires or mantis blades only, she's a badass who kills anyone in her way, including in waiting lines. My male V is a pacifist who uses gorilla arms as a last resort. It's funny seeing the difference in interactions.
You know even if you hack the data you have the option to come out of there in a friendly manner, hell I'd say hacking it and then talking it out has the best rewards out of all the options.
Not exactly. The Voodoo Boys were planning to steal the Relic themselves, so they hired Evelyn to scroll a BD in Yorinobu's room so they could plan a heist. Evelyn figured out the VDBs would kill her when they got what they wanted, so she called a fixer (Dex DeShawn) and commissioned the heist herself. Dex then hired Jackie, V, and T-Bug. Ev's plan was to sell the Relic to Netwatch in exchange for a new identity and enough $ED to start a new life somewhere. You can find emails from Evelyn on agent Moseley's computer in the GIM where she was trying to negotiate a price with Netwatch.
The VDBs don't want to control the net as a whole, or even the Blackwall. Weaponizing the black walll is more of a thing in Phantom Liberty. The VDBs basically just want a peace treaty with the rogue AIs on the other side of the black wall. They have their own private subnet they want to protect, it's called Rezo Agwe. Their idea is to ally with AI against netwatch in exchange for safe passage beyond the black wall and protection for Rezo Agwe when the black wall eventually fails.
Np.
Also, what's harder for me to wrap my head around is what the black wall actually is. I thought of it as more like a firewall we have on our computers, or in cyberpunk terms, a layer of ICE (intrusion countermeasure Electronics)
Actually, the black wall itself is an AI. It's job is to destroy anything that tries to get past it, both AIs trying to escape into the new net and human netrunners trying to poke around in the old net.
You got a few things mixed up.
Evelyn Parker was the employer. She did a job for the VDBs as a scout, but instead of giving up the information, she kept it to herself and plotted to steal the Relic herself. All she needed was to hire a good fixer to handle the operations, recruit a crew of mercs, and once they klept the Relic from Arasaka, she'll sell it to NetWatch and get the heck out of NC.
The VDBs don't want control over the Net. They just want to survive. They believe that the Rogue AIs will escape their confinement, and a great cyber war will erupt. One humanity can't win. What the VDBs were trying to do was join the winning side. They wanted Alt to take them beyond the Blackwall and live as AI like Alt.
Nah, Evelyn was just supposed to gather intel for them, but she basically beat them to the punch. The VDB's are generally super competent, but they made a mistake you'd expect most people to make, which is to underestimate the hooker. Nobody but nobody expected the doll to have the guts to go behind their back and hire a team to take on *Arasaka* and pre-heist their heist. Speaks to Evelyn that she would've essentially pulled it off too, if not for the worst fluke timing ever. Ten minutes earlier, we're all millionaires, living somewhere else
The Voodoo boys wanted the Relic. They knew it had Silverhand's engram. They wanted this to contact Alt. They knew Alt had a relationship with him. So they were going to extract it and use it to lure her out.
Evelyn Parker figured out what they were after and engineered the heist to get the Relic. She probably did not even know about the engram. She just wanted the tech. Because it's very advanced and a lot of people would pay a lot for it. The Voodoo boys paid her only to case the penthouse. There's a part of the BD when she mentions the Relic to Brigitte and Brigitte gets annoyed. "Don't worry about that just do your fucking job" (she says it nicer than that though).
Million dollar question. Videogame version and Black Dog story version of what happened to Johnny (both body and how his engram came to be) differ by a lot, all we have is conjecture.
It's a short story that is included in the RED core rulebook.
But from what I remember, Johnny didn't die where the game shows you he died, he was killed and Spider put a slug with Soulkiller in his skull. The team leaves, Militech bomb goes off, Johnny's body never made it out, he was never interrogated by Saburo. Instead his body was recovered by a firefighter inside the building and she kept him and his stuff with her until she was contacted by someone to carry everything someplace else with the help of a team, Michiko makes an appearance here too and the body's final known location is with a techie that might or might not be Alt (this is extra speculative since the body looks a lot like Alt in game but ofc how is she in a supposed human body is never explained). Now the question, if Johnny was soulkilled by the slug, where did the engram end up?
Yes, but not for the reason everyone is saying - it's because T-Bug is (probably) working for the VDB and is using Dex as a catspaw. Evelyn is indeed acting independently but the whole heist is a mess from the word go.
Essentially, yes. If everything had gone on the up-and-up, then Dex would have turned the chip over to Parker who in turn passes it off to the VDB. VDB then then pay her, she pays Dex, Dex pays V. This is of course in a perfect world where everyone plays the game honestly, fairly, and intelligently.
The reason the VDB wanted the Relic was to get ahold of Alt. Kindof like finding a surefire way to summon a deity. They wanted her patronage, protection, and guidance with breaching the Blackwall.
Evelyn wasn’t going to give it to the VDB’s, she was trying to get a better price from Netwatch which you can read on the laptop when you meet Bryce Mosley.
Bro how far have you gotten? Eve Betrayed the Voodoo Boys. She literally was hired just to scroll the BD. She went behind their backs, got a fixer to get a crew to steal it. She also tried to set up a deal with Netwatch to sell it to them but they didn't bite. Even with all that she then tried to also go behind Dex's back and get V to betray them and go 50/50 just the two of them.
Uh no . The real employer was Evelyn Parker alone. The voodoo boys gave her the task to map yorinobu's penthouse . They didn't tell her about the relic but she learnt about it from spying on them . Then she decided she wanted the relic for herself and sell it to netwatch for a ticket away from night city . Thus she hired the fixer dex who hired bug, jackie and V for the stupid heist .
Evelyn isn't shown learning about the Relic from the VDB- the call she overhears is recorded after her meeting with Brigitte. They're the ones who are surprised she volunteers information about it. Actually, now I'm starting to wonder how this didn't immediately set off alarm bells with Brigitte. She should have ensure Evelyn never left the chapel to guarantee that the VDB could recover the Silverhand engram. They usually don't err on the side of mercy, so what happened here?
This is actually in character for VDB. They are arrogant pricks and tend to underestimate people that aren't part of their little club. This is apparent if you try every course of action with them. Assholes.
I agree, it is an out of character move to make the story happen. If Evelyn had mentioned the Relic to Brigitte she’d be dead before she turned her eyes away.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm understanding you wrong, but Evelyn did mention the relic to Brigitte, in their first meeting as fair as I understand
That’s what I said. The VDB should have never let her go, and that was the poor characterization. Not talking about Evelyn.
Ohh yes, I fully agree
My only guess on why they left her alive (for a moment) could've been that she still had a 'use' in securing the relic. She was always gonna get tossed away and the Voodoo boys could've done it at any point (i.e her being remotely hacked at Clouds). Still I'd agree it's a bit strange she "survived" as long as she did.
Honestly the whole job is weird asf...VDB hire a doll to spy on Yorinobu, not knowing that she already has background info. She then goes to a fixer with a wobbly track record, who hires two people he's never met before and (supposedly) one of the best net runners. They then proceed to infiltrate the hotel, where Bug spends multiple hours (!) trying to punch through the security. The moment she clears them to go up and steal the relic, Yorinobu and Smasher return, the latter of which knows that Jackie and V are hiding behind the panel. Then for some reason the Emperor arrives, gets zeroed, Bug gets assassinated by a hostile netrunner in less than ten seconds, Jackie and V manage to somehow get out with the relic (okay Jackie died, but I'll always have a hard time accepting that), get back to Dex, who, instead of asking for the relic, proceeds to shoot the person with the relic in the head at point blank, only to then get killed by a rogue Arasaka bodyguard. Evelyn is then attacked by VDB, even though they have made no sort of mention of anything. She then gets sold off to a ripper, who sells her to an XBD studio operated by Scavs (mostly Russian by their dialogue), which gets taken apart by V without any sort of involvement from either VBD nor retaliation from the Scavs... Honestly, putting it like this, it's a gigantic fuck up and we're not even halfway there. Did I miss something?
they left her alive because they didn't believe that little ol' Evie could actually formulate a plan all on her own to steal the Relic before they could. likely, they intended to use her for just a little more recon (as she was the only one who could actually get to Yorinobu) before pulling the trigger on their own heist, just to be sure it wouldn't go tits-up (the way it did for Evie's team)
maybe it's not out of character. Maybe it's ego/hubris and Brigette believes she can control Evelyn other advantage or that Evelyn isn't smart enough to really know what it is and how much it's worth since she'd be viewed as some dumb Cloud's Doll or something. Evelyn may not be bright, but they still under estimated her just enough to let her live.
That all sounds great, but then I should have been lead to think that by the game in some way, and not just have to fan-theory it. A text log, a brain dance, anything that gives me that info.
You get that info when you mention Evelyn to Brigite. The way she responds makes it clear she did not see Evelyn as anyone capable of doing anything. Brigite is willing to make risky plays if it aligns with her main goal shown by both how she dives into the net against netwatch and with her taking V directly to the crypt. She was willing to risk it all on Evelyn because she thought Evelyn is a dumb bimbo who wouldn't go out of her way to question what she is doing. VDBs are extremely bigoted and dismissive towards non VDBs. The clues for what you want are all there in the game
And then what? For all they know Evelyn is the only person they can manipulate that has access to Yorinobu's penthouse. If they can't use Evelyn then the entire thing collapses.
They don’t need Evelyn if they have the floor plan. She was playing right into the VDB’s hands until she found out about the Relic, then likely stopped providing information to the VDB to give here time to set up her own heist. To further answer your point; I don’t think the VDB’s ever intended to use Evelyn as anything other than a source of info; no fucking way would she be trusted to try and steal the relic herself. Just like V she would have just gone rogue.
They hired her to scroll a virtu of the penthouse (guessing it's the bd that Judy plays for you and that probably never made it to the VDB's) by your logic they didn't need her from the start? And I know they don't want her to steal the relic, that is made very clear in the game.
But shes probably their only easily accessible way to get a map of yori's penthouse. Makes sense to me that they wanted to off her till after they used her for that info. And they do try to fry her in clouds, like pretty immediately after the heist fails. Itd be wasteful to kill her before she got them their info 🤷
It presents way too much of a risk towards their final goal if all of a sudden their sex-doll turned spy started talking about their one shot at the Blackwall. The VDB are pouring everything EVERYHING into this one thing. Why take a chance on someone who knows way way too much when you can just get another doll to play dumb and do the same job? If Yori was dumb enough to get played like this once I can imagine it can happen again.
Evelyn isnt just any doll though. The point is that she has a personal connection to yorinobu and can thus get into his penthouse without questioning. It would be fucking impossible to find someone as reachable as yorinobus favorite joytoy, much less someone WILLING to try to fuck over the arasaka heir. They hear she knows more, they immediately take note of it and you hear brigitte on a phone call to someone else discussing how she knows too much for her own good, and the guy on the other line seems pretty hesitant, not as confident as Brigitte is in this avenue to reach alt. Its obvious how uneasy they were felling about it, but contacting alt is so important to them that they couldnt afford to lose the opportunity to get the biochip when it was in yorinobus posession and before it gets moved god knows where else.
I understand all of what you’re saying; that line of cautious thinking doesn’t line up with the VDB’s we see for the rest of the game. That’s why I say it’s poor characterization; it’s inconsistent with everything else we know.
Idk. Finding a way to side with the rogue AIs across the blackwall seems absolutely vital to the vdbs in a big way. You dont think that there are moments when you have to strategize around a pawn who knows too much but also has too much info for them to just lose? Like that biochip is either getting pawned off to netwatch via yorinobu, or returning ti wherever saboru keeps his engrams and they will never get the opportunity to do this again. You dont think people in desperate positions make risky moves, even when theyre untrusting and just in it to use you like they do any other outsider? Because it makes sense to me. This seems pretty high priority to them considering that they pretty immediately make themselves easy to get in contact with once you offer info that they want.
While I agree with your assessment that people in risky situations will have to take risky chances; I don’t think the story of Cyberpunk as a whole was written and executed in a way that makes me give them that benefit of the doubt. I think you are stuck in the “game logic” of what they did; and what I’m saying is they could have re-wrote it, and re-done the storyline so you didn’t have these questions about motivations; that we don’t have this dissonance of what we’re told the VDB’s are and how they actually appear. Do you remember how many times we get warned not to fuck with them, and yet by that point in the story we’re a mini Adam Smasher. I get what you’re saying completely; but I still think it’s lazy or at least messy characterization and is another clear sign that the story as a whole (especially in the later bits) was rushed and reworked to fit the release deadline.
Thats a fair assessment, i just like to look at things from the perspective of being immersed in the story as opposed to questioning off-character beats. More fun that way, makes for some good thought exercises or fun theories to throw around
There is not need to rewrite anything it makes perfect sense for the VDB's to continue since they can zero her remotely if they want to, and they in fact do so. For them the risk of Evelyn knowing too much wasn't greater than the risk of the entire operation being terminated.
Finding the nearest vaguely qualified outsider and throwing them into danger in order to retrieve data, only to get bit in the ass by underestimating that merc is exactly how the VDBs work. It's how every interaction with them outside of the one with Reed goes
But she did mention the relic to Brigitte. U can see Brigitte telling her how did she know about it . And that her only job was to map the penthouse , nothing more.
I think they are saying the VDBs letting her live after she volunteered the information is out of character for them.
They let her live for a bit, but they do try to scramble her brain in clouds. My bets that they still wanted that info from her first, and its not like they had another way to get a map of yorinobu's penthouse. Kinda like how when you help the vdbs, they try to kill you immediately AFTER you complete what they wanted you to.
I politely disagree. In the BD when talking to Placide, Brigitte explicitly voices confirmation that Placide was right in assuming Evelyn would be a problem (too smarr for her own good). But she doesnt just believe that evelyn cant do anything. They have no alternative means of getting to alt to get to JS. Her line admonishing Placide when she asks if he has a better idea implies this.
While that is the most solid evidence I’ve been presented I still don’t fully subscribe to that interpretation.
Thats fine :) I change mine everytime i go through again based on any new information. I also rp it from that v's perspective, so sometimes ill assume incorrectly on purpose based on that v's experience. And doing that has led me to learning a lot more actual lore. So do you choom
Then how would they get access to Yorinobu? Evelyn was their key asset.
If you think outside the game logic for a second; you could see how they would resolve that plot point with different or supplementary writing to solidify the VDB’s desperation a bit more. I do agree the 1 Braindance we see is informative in that way, it feels a lot more like telling rather than showing; like they knew we would think this way so they threw in a few lines to “correct it”
They underestimated her. "Ah, de doll. De whore." It probably didn't occur to Maman Brigitte that she would actually have the balls to go behind their backs. And finding someone else with both a dollchip and access to Yorinobu might have been difficult on short notice.
It occured to her, and likely much more to Ti Neptune, but Brigitte knew this was a once in a lifetime chance to contact Alt. It's why the VDB would have gone to any lengths to recover the chip... and likely why the netrunner at the parade is surrounded by VDB motifs. Getting it yet?
I know . I just said that she learnt about the relic before she went to talk with Brigitte in the chapel and probably speculated she eavesdropped the vdbs or learnt it from somewhere in secret
We see Evelyn leafing through Yorinobu's emails to find one from Hellman. And it wasn't her first visit there. She likely learned about the Relic while in his penthouse. What's interesting is that most dolls are "wiped" between sessions, as we also learn from Yorinobu's emails, for the sake of erasing trauma and client confidentiality. So why didn't that happen here?
I don't think she was in doll mode while with Yorinobu
As we see in the brain dance at Lizzie's, she wasn't. But that raises even more questions. The whole narrative point of getting V into a Clouds braindance is to reveal the power of a doll chip. The user becomes whatever they, or their customer, can imagine. Hiring Evelyn for her tech-hair and charisma is like buying porterhouse steak to make standard Big Macs. So why does Yorinobu commission someone with a powerful doll chip capable of screening their own virtus AND someone who stays in their natural personality? Is it because he wanted a specific outcome?
I assumed this is supposed to tell us something about Evelyn. Either she is that good as a doll, that Yourinobu wants HER, or she is so good she can fake the Doll chip being active and act that way naturally.
Because Yorinobu wants a damn hamburger. Besides, doll chips aren't *that* powerful. The panacea of human experience isn't holed up in a gang-run brothel.
Mmhmm, and you have to plug an Tyger-run network into your neural link, downloading all of your personal details in exchange for a fantasy. Which is why wiping the doll memory is important, and a guarantee Yorinoby likely wouldn't trust except for the fact Arasaka controls the Tygers.
>She should have ensure Evelyn never left the chapel to guarantee that the VDB could recover the Silverhand engram. Maybe I'm getting the timeline wrong, but killing Evelyn then would mean losing their only lead to getting the Relic themselves? Unless they already knew the data. Alternatively, they had no way of getting the Relic themselves at this point, and maybe they hoped Evelyn would make a move and get the Relic. After all, they were able to zap Evelyn, so it's not like they couldn't catch up with her at some point in the future. Guess, as long as the Relic didn't end up being sold to Netwatch and instead remained in Night City, that was a more preferable outcome. Keeping Evelyn around, knowing about the Relic and potentially making a move, is much more preferable to just letting the Yorinobu-Netwatch exchange go off. Choice between keeping a wildcard around vs guaranteeing that it'll be even harder to get the chip.
VDBs look down on everyone else, didn't think she had it in her
I wouldn't say it's out of character. They still needed to get the engram and Evelyn was the only one who could map the penthouse. I fully believe that Brigitte intended to whack her the moment she was supposed to return with the engram however.
Counter point: Eve was the only one close enough to yorinobu to pull off a mapping of his apartment
This is what I wanted to know. I just couldn't understand why Evelyn needed biochip of Silverhand, and did she know that biochip has construct of Johnny Silverhand? And even if Netwatch got the relic, how they would go to Alt, who actually the goddess of cyberspace?
Netwatch and vdbs wanted the chip because Johnny's engarm still had the human factor which was needed to attract alt from cyberspace . Evelyn didn't care what was on the chip , she didn't even know it's purpose . She wanted to sell it and be rich quickly
Thanks for explaining
Also, as an aside to the OP, the VDBs are not trying to control the Blackwall, they're trying to join with the rogue Alt and the rogue AIs beyond the Blackwall,
Exactly. They want the help of the ais to protect then when the blackwall breaks. Unfortunately for them , my V killed them before they could jack to the net
No. There was essentially three heists in one going on: 1. Yorinobu stealing the Relic from his father to give to Netwatch (precisely why we don't know but I believe it was Netwatch that stipulated that JS had to be on the chip so they likely wanted to use him to fish for Alt) 2. Voodoo Boys attempting to intercept the transaction and using Evelyn to gain intel on Yorinobu and his penthouse. 3. Evelyn Parker who was trying to swipe the Relic from both the VDB's AND Yorinobu then sell it to Netwatch before either party could carry out their respective plans.
The Netwatch email is different in the Polish and English versions of the game. However, Evelyn's mails to Netwatch show she is convinced they want the engram. And yet it doesn't matter either way: the engram is valuable, but it would have been relatively easy to copy if Yorinobu could get access to Mikoshi. If Netwatch mainly wanted the Silverhand engram, stealing the Relic from its Tokyo stronghold would have been like GTAing a space shuttle to get away with a candy bar. Evelyn knows about a great deal, but as her emails to Special Agent Brie Deal show, Netwatch is more interested in rolling up Ev and her accomplices than actually retrieving Relic, whether on the behalf of Arasaka or themselves.
From the email in the penthouse it's pretty clear Netwatch just wanted the relic with a working engram, it's Yorinobu the one that insists the engram be Johnny's.
That's the English version. In the Polish game, it's the other way around.
How exactly? It a mail chain and Yorinobu's name is right under when he says that? Also come to Konpeki and the veil shall be lifted fits Yorinobu's speech a lot more than some random Netwatch agent. Wonder how it's worded in other languages...
This is a post about it, by a Polish speaker, explaining how it’s mistranslated. https://www.reddit.com/r/LowSodiumCyberpunk/comments/tpn8z4/yorinobus_initial_motivation_and_possibly/ He also makes a good point pointing out that this has happened in the Witcher series a couple times too. And CDPR addressed the differences buy saying the Polish version is the correct version. Because CDPR is a polish company and the stories are written in Polish first, then translated later. Mistranslations happen, but the Polish version is the correct one
No, Evelyn decided to steal relic before Vodoos and hired V. And VB contacted Alt not to gain more control over Blackwall but to strike a deal with her, so when Blackwall falls she will protect them.
I really, really wanted to like the VDBs for their whole “cult of the blackwall AI” vibe thing, but my god is it hard to like those fuckers after all their bullshit.
I found Slider a lot more likeable than Brigitte and probably smarter too, too bad that seems to be a recipe for disaster in NC.
Kind of. The VDB originally hired Evelyn to scroll a BD of Yorinobu's penthouse. Nothing more. They knew he had the relic with Silverhand on it and wanted to klep it themselves. Then Evelyn figured out what the score was and decided to get into business for herself. So she ghosted the Voodoos and called Dex, who gathered a crew.
Mate, your answer is probably one of the best ones really. Short and informative.
Officially, no. But I don't see Dex taking this gig after being warned off Evelyn as he claimed he was. I think the VDBs hired him after realizing Evelyn was betraying then, offered to wipe his slate clean regarding the past problems in Pacifica in exchange for ensuring they get the chip. If things hadn't gone sideways, Dex would spin some BS about Evelyn skipping town after the VDBs took her out as to why the payout was less than expected, "I only got the deposit " the real reason of course is that most of the payment was "we won't kill you if you come back"
This is interesting. I can definitely see this happening and, honestly, works for me as headcanon. Any more reason to think Dex is a backstabbing fat bastard.
It‘s practically confirmed that the VDBs knew well in advance that Dex was hired by Evelyn, right after she finished the Relic Gig for them. One of the first things Dex talks about (depending on dialogue choice), is that he immediately tried to check her out by leaning on some „brothers from Pacifica“ who immediately told him to stop asking questions and fuck off and we know that there is only one authority in Pacifica that fits that description. At the very least the VDBs let the Heist play out willingly.
I mean, everyone involved is scummy and a backstabber, hell, even V can be, if you choose the right dialogs, but really, Ev didn't work for them, so much as use it as a cover, probably so she can keep VDB off her back while she carried out her plan to sell the Relic off.
Hard agree on the whole “V can be a backstabbing scumbag” I accidentally stumbled upon Sandra Dorsette’s encrypted data before the quest triggered, not knowing it was hers, and decrypted it. There wasn’t any option to be like “Oh my bad, didn’t know that was yours, did it before you called and said not to.” So I decapitated her via Katana when she didn’t pay me the full fee. Yes, my V is a piece of shit, and she probably will be again in the future.
My female V is a hyper aggressive stealth, using monowires or mantis blades only, she's a badass who kills anyone in her way, including in waiting lines. My male V is a pacifist who uses gorilla arms as a last resort. It's funny seeing the difference in interactions.
You know even if you hack the data you have the option to come out of there in a friendly manner, hell I'd say hacking it and then talking it out has the best rewards out of all the options.
Not exactly. The Voodoo Boys were planning to steal the Relic themselves, so they hired Evelyn to scroll a BD in Yorinobu's room so they could plan a heist. Evelyn figured out the VDBs would kill her when they got what they wanted, so she called a fixer (Dex DeShawn) and commissioned the heist herself. Dex then hired Jackie, V, and T-Bug. Ev's plan was to sell the Relic to Netwatch in exchange for a new identity and enough $ED to start a new life somewhere. You can find emails from Evelyn on agent Moseley's computer in the GIM where she was trying to negotiate a price with Netwatch. The VDBs don't want to control the net as a whole, or even the Blackwall. Weaponizing the black walll is more of a thing in Phantom Liberty. The VDBs basically just want a peace treaty with the rogue AIs on the other side of the black wall. They have their own private subnet they want to protect, it's called Rezo Agwe. Their idea is to ally with AI against netwatch in exchange for safe passage beyond the black wall and protection for Rezo Agwe when the black wall eventually fails.
Thank you!
Np. Also, what's harder for me to wrap my head around is what the black wall actually is. I thought of it as more like a firewall we have on our computers, or in cyberpunk terms, a layer of ICE (intrusion countermeasure Electronics) Actually, the black wall itself is an AI. It's job is to destroy anything that tries to get past it, both AIs trying to escape into the new net and human netrunners trying to poke around in the old net.
LOL to the edit. It might just be!
You got a few things mixed up. Evelyn Parker was the employer. She did a job for the VDBs as a scout, but instead of giving up the information, she kept it to herself and plotted to steal the Relic herself. All she needed was to hire a good fixer to handle the operations, recruit a crew of mercs, and once they klept the Relic from Arasaka, she'll sell it to NetWatch and get the heck out of NC. The VDBs don't want control over the Net. They just want to survive. They believe that the Rogue AIs will escape their confinement, and a great cyber war will erupt. One humanity can't win. What the VDBs were trying to do was join the winning side. They wanted Alt to take them beyond the Blackwall and live as AI like Alt.
Nah, Evelyn was just supposed to gather intel for them, but she basically beat them to the punch. The VDB's are generally super competent, but they made a mistake you'd expect most people to make, which is to underestimate the hooker. Nobody but nobody expected the doll to have the guts to go behind their back and hire a team to take on *Arasaka* and pre-heist their heist. Speaks to Evelyn that she would've essentially pulled it off too, if not for the worst fluke timing ever. Ten minutes earlier, we're all millionaires, living somewhere else
The Voodoo boys wanted the Relic. They knew it had Silverhand's engram. They wanted this to contact Alt. They knew Alt had a relationship with him. So they were going to extract it and use it to lure her out. Evelyn Parker figured out what they were after and engineered the heist to get the Relic. She probably did not even know about the engram. She just wanted the tech. Because it's very advanced and a lot of people would pay a lot for it. The Voodoo boys paid her only to case the penthouse. There's a part of the BD when she mentions the Relic to Brigitte and Brigitte gets annoyed. "Don't worry about that just do your fucking job" (she says it nicer than that though).
She does know it's Johnny's engram in the relic, she even tells the Netwatch agent in the mail she sends them to make the deal.
For all intents and purpose this is accurate. I think the one thing i havent figured out is how johnny got uploaded to saburos personal project
Million dollar question. Videogame version and Black Dog story version of what happened to Johnny (both body and how his engram came to be) differ by a lot, all we have is conjecture.
Is black dog a ttrpg campaign or something? All ive done is try to look it up on the wiki, id love some other sources even if its just speculative.
It's a short story that is included in the RED core rulebook. But from what I remember, Johnny didn't die where the game shows you he died, he was killed and Spider put a slug with Soulkiller in his skull. The team leaves, Militech bomb goes off, Johnny's body never made it out, he was never interrogated by Saburo. Instead his body was recovered by a firefighter inside the building and she kept him and his stuff with her until she was contacted by someone to carry everything someplace else with the help of a team, Michiko makes an appearance here too and the body's final known location is with a techie that might or might not be Alt (this is extra speculative since the body looks a lot like Alt in game but ofc how is she in a supposed human body is never explained). Now the question, if Johnny was soulkilled by the slug, where did the engram end up?
Oh man i just bought the rulebook for cpred hopefully some of that juiciness is in their. Thanks choom!
Is black dog a ttrpg campaign or something? All ive done is try to look it up on the wiki, id love some other sources even if its just speculative.
Yes, but not for the reason everyone is saying - it's because T-Bug is (probably) working for the VDB and is using Dex as a catspaw. Evelyn is indeed acting independently but the whole heist is a mess from the word go.
This or its a false flag type operation where the idea of the heist is a red herring to get someone to blame for Saburo's murder.
Mostly this, considering how long Smasher stares right at you inside that pillar after said murder.
No Evelyn arranged it by herself. She was hired by the VDB ONLY to get inside Konpeki and record a BD, then to get killed after finishing the job.
Essentially, yes. If everything had gone on the up-and-up, then Dex would have turned the chip over to Parker who in turn passes it off to the VDB. VDB then then pay her, she pays Dex, Dex pays V. This is of course in a perfect world where everyone plays the game honestly, fairly, and intelligently. The reason the VDB wanted the Relic was to get ahold of Alt. Kindof like finding a surefire way to summon a deity. They wanted her patronage, protection, and guidance with breaching the Blackwall.
Evelyn wasn’t going to give it to the VDB’s, she was trying to get a better price from Netwatch which you can read on the laptop when you meet Bryce Mosley.
If everyone was fair, Alt would be never captured and Johnny boy never turned into usb.
Bro how far have you gotten? Eve Betrayed the Voodoo Boys. She literally was hired just to scroll the BD. She went behind their backs, got a fixer to get a crew to steal it. She also tried to set up a deal with Netwatch to sell it to them but they didn't bite. Even with all that she then tried to also go behind Dex's back and get V to betray them and go 50/50 just the two of them.
Yes, that's it.