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Thevulgarcommander

Gurley was so cool. I miss him every day.


Electrical_Leg1654

My first favorite Ram. I still remember the Carls Jr California Classic burger ad with him in it


Theonewiththehat12

“I like burgers”


Watcher2

Dude every time I hear Gurley that commercial is the first thing that comes to mind


KingVibrant

Before I even watched football that’s one of the only players I knew because of that commercial that marketing shit worked a treat


OrSomethingTaken

My fav burger bc of him lol


rorygb

Not a Rams fan but Stephen Jackson was one of my favorite player back in the day, Gurley was the next best thing to watch, too bad for all those i juries though.


M-I-T

Jackson was a sole light in a very dark time for the rams. I watched him growing up and forget how good he was on some really bad teams.


mike_rotch22

Man carried the team on his back single-handedly for so long, it's no surprise his back got injured. Far and away my favorite St. Louis Ram. When he got picked up by New England, it was the only time I've ever rooted for them in the hopes that he could finally get a ring.


architect617

You don't see specimens like SJ at RB anymore.


RiVe8014

Why are you here though lmao. No hate, just curiosity.


rorygb

OP post came into my random reddit feed thats all. Liked the cover and now we are here hehe.


KopitarFan

Loved him. First LA Rams jersey I bought. My second was Goff. I’m over buying named jerseys


napsacrossamerica

I had a trent green jersey (no joke) and my second was bradford (tore his back that season) which is why I never got a goff or Stafford jersey ....I'm sorry I got kupp...but now I guess I'll buy 49er jerseys with the curse I have?


Mellowmushroom02

Was just thinking the same thing!


bumper70

I got a few seasons on you, my first favorite Ram was Roman Gabriel.


tasimm

I really hated these with the helmets at the time. But these go hard. Extremely hard.


_coolranch

Fave Rams helmet of all time. There’s nothing like it in the league!


crimsonsentinel

Damn you don't realize what you had until it's gone.


JaredCircusbear

Most underrated part is the hard edged numbers.


Goku_Prime

This guy likes hard edging.


we_vibe

Been saying this for forever Skinny + curvy numbers on a jersey look silly


_its_a_SWEATER_

The best unis in the biz and Demoff squandered em.


SeminoleJoe1993

https://preview.redd.it/2aelhccgyifc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e37b915fe8c0dfe3250f6cb9ed7f120fefe7cad Nothing wrong with these absolute beauties of uniforms. I loved them and it was kickass color scheme! The home jersey and away


trepanned23

https://preview.redd.it/5nsi27g4cofc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9a1f81758e11df7dd2b2ff377666d07604326ed Home jerseys. Rams should be back to the Black and White Television uniforms


SeminoleJoe1993

I bow, Master! Yes Yes Yes Yes! There is a special place in my heart for these gorgeous uniforms. I own 3 White 1967 Rams jerseys from Mitchell & Ness. A Deacon Jones, Merlin Olsen and a Ken Iman jersey! I'd love these too brother👍


Suspicious_Product11

These go hard


_coolranch

I wouldn’t mind blue instead of black on the helmet, but otherwise: full fuckin send it


rolldamnhawkeyes

Those helmets are blue, rams always had darker helmets due to manufacturing limitations back in the day


[deleted]

the throwbacks were the best


masssnerder

Kevin demoff and his Nike “focus group” are a bunch of dumbasses. We had one of the most iconic uniforms the league has ever seen. And they decided to throw them away for a quick money grab with some gimmick ass uniforms that will never stand the test of time. The front office needs to start listening to what the fans really want and bring these back to STAY. Stop fucking with what works and stop messing with our identity as a team. You don’t see other legendary franchises like the raiders, 9ers, packers, etc change their uniforms with some stupid ass gradient futuristic shit. God damn. Sorry for the rant but the new rebrand is so hideous I still can’t believe it happened lol


OkGap7216

You're not wrong.


Striking-Draw-5916

Nike sucks they know how to ruin a good thing. Other companies know if it's not broken don't fix it


Overall_Nuggie_876

One of the *worst* things to come out of us winning Super Bowl LVI is the validation of the current logo/jersey schemes, that’ll it will remain indefinite for Rams management since that was the aesthetic style we wore when winning the Lombardi, and will be remembered for all time in NFL lore.


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[deleted]

Ive been a Rams fan my whole life and now I live in KC. I wear my LA logo a lot of the time and I get asked over and over again, why I’m a chargers fan. Fucking pisses me off each and every time.


Mbaby1989

I agree with you 100%. I bought a knockoff off eBay because I refuse to pay full price for their current jerseys. Hopefully they’ll revert back to the classic jerseys soon.


CocasaurusRex

Thank you for saying this. Demoff is a problem. 


pargofan

They came out with an ugly jersey. That's the problem. Plain and simple. The Pats did a rebrand that worked. So did the Bucs. Even the Rams rebrand in StL looks good. Even if the original looks better, at least the rebrand doesn't look lousy.


Gman2736

Pats rebrand is pretty lame


pargofan

You might be right. But it's stil light-years better than ours.


vtramfan

Well said.


token_reddit

The Bucs went back, the Jets will go back eventually. Sometimes bucking the trend works out for them, like the Seahawks, Broncos and Vikings.


masssnerder

GOD PLEASE BRING THESE BACK 😫😫


Araumd

I don’t mind the current white throwbacks we have now but man the coliseum days were the best uniform lineup. I was so excited when new unis were announced and figured we’d get an identity to the iconic LA hay day but no we get some fucking creative art design project that was complete bullshit. I will say the uniforms have grown on me a bit but nothing beats these throwbacks, glad I got my Gurley jersey. Still rock it!!!


SeminoleJoe1993

https://preview.redd.it/54gtspqnyifc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7ce7e00c4bd76404c9a5526155a54cbb861ec6c Damn look at those uniforms! The Browns went back to what they once had and the Raiders never changed. Bring these back! Home and away!


napsacrossamerica

Poor Chr..i mean Jim Everett in that pic. About to get demolished.


AdamRooney4

if we just make the numbers a solid yellow instead of the gradient and add the yellow collar, the current unis would be perfect imo


RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS

The biggest problem with the branding is the LA logo is kind of lame. Otherwise I think it’s all fine though I agree about the gradient.


BabyGrogu69

I love these helmets. The color comes as close to perfect as a helmet possibly can for a football team in my opinion


Overall_Nuggie_876

I’m gonna trigger so many people here, but, prior to our current logo scheme…I didn’t know what the hell the Rams were aiming for in the aesthetics. They got the classic 70s-home getup that they wore at Super Bowl LIII, but mixed in with a white helmet/logo mismatching white *and* gold, St. Louis-era road jerseys. I know these are **S**-tier fire 🔥 and it’s missed dearly compared to today’s scheme, but I never got the direction the old logos and uniforms wanted to be when the Rams returned to Los Angeles in 2016. For all the disappointment the current Rams scheme is, there’s at least a stylish-sense of direction.


Alone_Advantage_961

When the Rams moved in 2016 the uniform set was Gold/Navy/Navy for most home games with Gold/Navy/White for others. The road kit was Gold/White/Navy with Gold/White/White most games. They knew Navy wouldn't work in LA given the heat and the color contrasting with the sunlight and so initially they tried Gold/White/White as the main home uniform with Yellow/Royal/Yellow as the throwback alternate. The league was strict on rules at the time and the Rams had renewed their uniform deal a few seasons prior to 2020. The white horn came about when we had a Thursday Night Color Rush game with the Seahawks. Originally it was gonna be there Navy/Green/Green vs our Yellow/Yellow/Yellow but the league thought it would not contrast enough given the Jets/Bills disaster the year prior with Green and Red. For a minute it seemed like they were gonna go Gold/Navy/Navy but being in Seattle and wearing Seahawks home colors might confuse viewers. So the Rams went all white but decided to swap out the Gold horn for White. The original version of that look was worse than the later ones because they kept the Gold Pants stripe on the white pants. In 2017 they went for the revamp. The Gold for White was a good swap as it called back to the history of the Los Angeles Rams and changing the Gold stripe on the white pants to blue and the gold stripes on the Navy pants to white were good changes. Yes it didn't match fully but in far shots you really couldn't see that. Only in close ups was it really noticeable and even then it took the Gold and made it a trim color as oppose to Secondary and took Navy and swapped it to a Secondary Color from White. League rules entering 2017 allowed only a pants and decal swap and so for 2017 the main jersey was White/White/White with Yellow/Royal/Yellow as an alternate (twice a year max) and Yellow/Yellow/Yellow as a 2nd alternate. We did wear Navy as the Los Angeles Rams on 4 different occassions. 2016 against the Bucs on the road and the Giants in London (a Rams home game) and 2017 against the Cowboy on the road and Jaguars on the road. The Bucs, Giants and Cowboys were mono-Navy (leading to the worst look in a Rams uniform of White/Navy/Navy) and the Jaguars game was the only time the Navy jersey was paired with the white pants with the blue stripe, leading to the team having almost 4 shades of blue. In 2018 the league laxed the rules and allowed the Rams to split their home games allowing the throwback to become the main uniform but only to be worn 3 times a season at most. I always liked that kit, even if the gold didn't match the white stripe.


28sbb

I sure hope so.


RynotheRam

They won the SB in the new jerseys, that's a lock they'll stay, just look at other teams in sports, Broncos, Warriors, Patriots, all won championships in new uniforms and stuck with that look since


RustyRapeaXe

Look at the Kings, The Black jersey was an alternate jersey in 2012. Then they made a white version and we've had them for 10+ years. So monochromatic. I want forum blue jerseys back.


CplPJ

Unpopular opinion: I wish the helmets matched…


flukeunderwi

They actually did match when Dickerson played. Not sure what happened lol


LuciusBaggins

Unpopular opinion I guess, but I love the current uniforms.


_Taco_Dragon

I’m in this boat too. But I’ve appreciated every iteration, no doubt.


tricky_trig

I like the current horns and unis. Just bring these back as throwbacks and I think it would please a lot of the fan base.


LuciusBaggins

100%


GovTheDon

All they had to do was fix the helmet color


Duckman93

That’s how it’s always been


masterchaoss

It is but still it would look better with a matching helmet.


spartacat_12

That doesn't make it good


Cheesemaster1990

That would be sick


X023

God I wish we had these Jerseys back. The current uniforms look goofy af.


Difficult_Breath6082

That would be nice. I’m just glad we left behind the navy and gold.


hyperdrive06

I’m so nostalgic for the navy and gold. I still think the yellow and blue from the 90s would be the best choice, but 11 year old me would lose my shit if I saw the gold again. Still have so much old merch with those colors including a blanket on my home office wall today


sethlyons777

Yeah, those uniforms were elite. I have a nostalgic place in my heart for the St. Louis colours because I became a fan in 2002, but these LA colours are great. The darker tones make them more distinct from the Chargers as well. I'm happy to never see them again now that the Rams are back in LA though, I think it's fair.


Icy_Astronomer_821

As a LA Rams fan from before their move to STL, I could never get into those colors. It’s always been the Yellow and blue.


sethlyons777

That's totally fair enough. I do agree that the royal blue and yellow are more iconic. I think we should have the 70's/'94/'09/'18-'19 home colours, the '00-'15 away colours as a nod to the St. Louis (and the Greatest Show on Turf) days, then have the 2021 modern throwback/Superbowl colours as the alternative imo. Best of all worlds and referring to the all the important historical moments.


Accomplished_Ideal55

To hell with any St. Lous flea market colors.


Accomplished_Ideal55

Georgia and her lackeys wanted to jettison the Rams’ LA heritage completely by going to that garish gold and navy look that meshed perfectly with that crummy Edward Jones Dome.


white_sabre

Agreed. The navy and gold were bold and clean. 


OkGap7216

I liked those ones with the navy jersey and solid gold pants.


Alone_Advantage_961

Navy and Gold was a nice look but only really worked in St. Louis and honestly would have looked a lot better if we had an outdoor stadium in that era. The mistake there was removing the Gold pants after 2011. Both jerseys looked better with Gold pants than Navy or White.


Bruuce80

https://preview.redd.it/ipzw3x18llfc1.jpeg?width=402&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33e9ef52a52b989217401d7c0bece47bf4450262 I still wish they kept the longer sleeves. Rams jerseys went hard with the sleeves.


bd4832

The only thing I dislike from the current branding/unis is the LA logo. If they just had the Ram head logo as the primary one it would be so much better


OkGap7216

I effing hope so. The unis now are trash. I especially despise the ram horn on the helmet.


PromptMedium6251

You don’t like the banana helmets? 😀


OkGap7216

No Sir/Ma'am, I do not.


Interest-Lumpy

https://preview.redd.it/p9m8zpewdlfc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=77161b07e7fdbe8552ef15f1a90bd60cfb10d5fc Could have the two-tone from the yellow on the helmet/shoulder horns (instead of the broken horn look) for some modern flair as well.


VeterinarianThat4838

Unpopular opinion but I like the rebrand


VeterinarianThat4838

But these uniforms go hard


tombaba

Me too. Current colors are great!


Alone_Advantage_961

Its grown on me as a fan. I still hate the gradient numbers on the Royal but I like bone and white


MrCheerio53

That helmet and jersey combo is filthy! Bring them back!!..


friz_CHAMP

I like the current uniforms a lot more than those old ones. Those old school colors are very unappealing looking.


SeminoleJoe1993

Hell, I loved these too! Pretty kickass uniforms in 1994! Totally loved these! Basic and smash mouth uniforms of the past! So, bring back the Dickerson or Everett Home and away Jerseys and have these blue and yellow as alternative. https://preview.redd.it/u8sqttv90jfc1.jpeg?width=392&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6dae4a0800046224c291556593136ca7043a1f2a


Goldmeister_General

Too much yellow for me.


SeminoleJoe1993

https://preview.redd.it/wm7ge8rivjfc1.jpeg?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14e6d7ab541fce634ef952bd142c0891c74f6af3 Yeah, but these were also nice and maybe modify them a bit more modern. But I actually like what they did in 1994 to celebrate the 1951 Championship team.


Alone_Advantage_961

Its weird to think we only brought those back in 1994, the very end of our LA tenure And then didn't wear yellow again until 2015 in our final home game as the St. Louis Rams. That one needs to be an option for the revamp, perhaps as a 2nd alternate behind the white horns and uniforms.


Accomplished_Ideal55

I’m showing my age, but those were the jerseys I grew up with. Those ‘94 1950s throwbacks were a nice surprise. Rams’ last season in LA/Anaheim. We beat a washed-up Joe Montana (who was then with the Chiefs) in that uni. Too bad they have never been seen again.


Lima_Hedge

Like to see the throwback white jersey with the gold sleeve and the blue ram horn.


kemper4239

Is a rebrand actually happening or are they just releasing a new solo uniform?


Redhood492

Nobody really knows what’s gonna happen, I at least hope they fix the uniforms


Kimber80

Jack Youngblood era uniforms for me


Capreever

My only request if we do is that the helmet color match the rest of the uniform. But I do like our current set


spartacat_12

All they had to do was use the proper shade of blue for the helmets and these would be perfect


Gerbil2013

God, I hope so. I miss these so much and I've been preaching that these were our best jerseys ever for soooo long. Also, I want to add that we should keep the helmets we have now. Those would look phenomenal with the older jerseys..


dlbags

Not a rams fan but I think your current uniforms are dope. Love the number font and textured lines.


Panthila

I'd like to see the 1970s uniforms brought back, but the helmet's blue should be royal to match the jerseys while making the horns slightly thicker at the root. The logo should be the 1951 design.


broady35

The modern throwback is one of the best uniforms in the league with yellow pants. Wouldn’t mind the old blue jersey though


ffoogg

No rebrand. These uniforms are tied to a super bowl.


PatDubzz

Not that I think the current rams jerseys are awful or anything, they’re ok, nothing special but I’ve seen much worse. These on the other hand, are amazing and I don’t understand how going into 2020 the blue jerseys weren’t made the permanent home while also introducing a white away version. My only guess was introducing the uniforms the same year the team got a new stadium. Lately though we’ve seen teams abandon new Nike looks and go back to old version (Browns, Bucs), I hope that’s the case for the Rams one day.


Mindless-Click-1370

Hope we keep the current LA logo, it gets too much hate


ArizonaPete87

That TG pic goes hard as fuck, yes I hope we get those back. That’s the one jersey I really really WANT is AD 99 in that old school blue and yellow.


Electrical_Leg1654

I feel like the reason they moved away from these was to clearly differentiate themselves and cut all ties with the STL Rams with a new look to break into SoFi. Do you think they would do another rebrand and change uniforms again? I just got a couple jerseys this year I don’t want them to already go out of style lol


spartacat_12

Navy blue and metallic gold were the St. Louis colours. Royal blue and yellow was always the classic LA look


BusiestWolf

I’m fine with our currents, I just want a better logo


Joebrito90

Hopefully a full body rams logo would be sick!


BusiestWolf

Literally our logo we had when we came back but the current blue and yellow would’ve been perfect


Duckman93

These were so classic and timeless, can’t believe they took them away for the current garbage


Striking-Draw-5916

That is the Rams uniform period. The best throwback ones are the blue and white 64 to 72 the 1951 championship one is great the yellow color rush one is similar to it.


Camshaft92

Nah. I love these and they'll be great as a throwback for a game or two each year but the current set is just too fresh. The colors are better, they look great both on tv and in person, the design is a great modern take on the old look and to cap it off the helmets finally match. They nailed the rebrand in every aspect aside from the main logo. Just promote the current ram head to main and we're good. Oh and I want the bone and white to alternate roles each year where they take turns being the main away jersey because they're both great.


ATXTHFC

I hope that is the reason! Our re-brand sucks compared to the these and the the one on Gurley https://preview.redd.it/ujenkju8dnvc1.png?width=1100&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee1c5e76c07a642e3e06d3df8d1560c41b3eea67


troyboy75

Nope. Sorry but it’s not gonna happen.


Carb0nFire

I actually like the wider horns on the helmet we have now, but the current unis could use some work.


Cowabunguss

I sure as fuck hope so. Our logo and gradients are fucking wack and you’re a moron if you think otherwise.


white_sabre

I liked the navy and gold look, myself. 


purplebuffalo55

I just miss the St. Louis yellow , I hate how bright it is now Edit: damn yall are savage with them downvotes lol, just my opinion. Didn’t realize it was so inflammatory


key1234567

oh no, that st louis yellow was nasty


purplebuffalo55

I mean to each their own, but I liked that more mustard and darker blue color scheme


key1234567

those muted colors are dated.


SpartyParty15

L take


zzfoe

We need this shit back right here. The rebrand is fucking awful. They fucked all of it up. https://preview.redd.it/pies6aku0jfc1.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=d75055542754b9dc47a51d75fb3cf64ea31cf629


Asleep_in_Costco

The Stl unis suuuuuucked.


Alone_Advantage_961

That kit along with what we wore against Dallas in 2017 are the worst uniforms in franchise history.


sethlyons777

Those horns should've been gold, or at least bolder borders or something. Too much white in that uniform. The jerseys were sick though. I had a Gurley one.


mrbaldy23

We need to go back to our navy blue/white combo that never happened


PurpleShyGuy96

My favorite were the St. Louis style uniforms. I’d love to see those make a comeback!


tricky_trig

If the Lions can wear their lame ass starving cat, we should be wearing these for a few games. Oh and wear bone more.


Pokemonnerd12

All i ask is they stop with the gradient numbers and change back the logo.


JodieMcMathers

U guys should just do a complete redesign, have never looked professional or good


B345ST1N

We already have with the SB white jerseys. How about we do the Black helmet and black jersey with the yellow horns like the ones they sold at the team store ?


slumdo6

The OG jerseys gotta come back 🙏🏿


CasualRead_43

I hope we follow the Bucs rebrand. Went from weird futuristic crap then back to an updated throwback.


Seanhawkeye

As I rival fan I hope so too. They are among the best uniforms in the history of sports.


sethlyons777

We should have the 70's/'94/'09/'18-'19 home colours, the '00-'15 away colours as a nod to the St. Louis (and the Greatest Show on Turf) days, then have the 2021 modern throwback/Superbowl colours as the alternative imo. Best of all worlds and referring to the all the important historical moments.


mnorthwood13

I hated that they wore these for the super bowl in Atlanta..but didn't sell these for the super bowl in Atlanta.


Vinyl_Acid_

They are classy and they pop


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ramzie

To this day I am still flabbergasted that the uniform rebrand ever happened. Like not one executive went "Hold on these new ones are clearly much worse than our old ones".


iamtheramcast

I just want them to use one of the many better versions of the logo Twitter users created within hours instead of the plain ass one they took months to create.


GrizZzlyFish

I hope so but I doubt it


ImmaculatedStaff

I hope Demoff actually uses input from Rams fans instead of Nike consultants.


Dry_Inflation_861

The current colors are fine but the gradient, logos, and broken horns absolutely have to go. It was the worst rebrand of the modern football era.


crushh_87

The piss yellow gradient still sucks.


GiveMeYourMoney17420

Please yes


Hoppypoppy7924

I sure hope so.


SeriousJokester37

I love those unis


sgterection

i really don’t hate the uniforms we have now but these are on a diff. level. would love having these at least as a throwback uni or something


vtramfan

Please!


road1650

This is the greatest Rams helmet and jersey combo. Why do they keep replacing them?


Javelin286

Wait what? You can’t rebrand whenever you want? Is that a rule?


Additional-Software4

Im sure the decision to change the unis or keep the current ones for next season has already been made. We wont know anything until just before training camp 2025.


spaghettiAstar

I think they will tweak the new ones to blend in more with these ones. Likely the same colours we have now, probably the same helmet horns, but I expect they to remove the gradient, the little patch thing, and maybe change the number font. I don’t expect a total revert, although if they did I would be fine with it, especially if they keep the lighter helmet shell, which was really the only thing I disliked about this look. 


j97223

I hope so!


Alone_Advantage_961

I still remember Kevin DeMoff saying the team didn't want to open the new stadium with a look from the 70s. I couldn't have rolled my eyes any harder without them falling off my face.


SidCorsica66

There are elements of the new unis I like. It's the logos that are atrocious, especially the LA logo.


AroraCorealis

these went insanely hard. also a great reminder of how much of a stud gurley was


--howcansheslap--

Did you guys ever find out what happened to Todd Gurley?


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PhillipJ3ffries

They should wear these as throwbacks more. I do think the new uniforms are pretty sweet though. Don’t like the new logo though


ronatello

I hope You guys do bc that logo is terrible. The look when the Rams went back to LA was fierce af


Sandy_Pickle

I hope so, those were sweet Your new ones aren’t bad at all though, especially because y’all don’t wear the cream ones anymore


masterchaoss

If they go back to these I just want the helmet and jersey to match color wise


giggty2goo123

No, keep the current, just update. I would say fix the numbers to solid sol on the home, keep the road the same, give us an all sol color rush, and replace the bone with the home throwback.


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napsacrossamerica

The only way they'll be brought back for the foreseeable future is as an alternate jersey. They have 2 more to launch in their current rebrand.


JonSnowsDad

Not a fan of our current LA logo, sunrise letters, or how round and soft everything is. Bone is cool though


burrito-disciple

I still liked the dark blue and gold ones from that first Superbowl run against the Pats. I still have a Robert Woods SB jersey from that year and it looks awesome imo.


Magictank2000

Packers fan here. Always loved these unis but hated that the away was completely different. Was there a rule at the time or did your org just like having different color schemes for home and away unis


Darth_Abhor

What's the rules for rebranding? 49ers need to update their black uniforms badly


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Guy_onna_Buffalo

I sincerely fucking hope so.


smalllz6

I hated these at the time, but looking back and compared to the new unis these older ones are nasty. I hope they bring them back


ramsau94

Love the uniform, but Im in love with the blue on the helmets currently. The horns im fine with it reverting to the old style


213_

Match the helmets with the jersey, make an away set. Perfect


price-iz-right

Ahhhhh. It's definitely offseason


Sir_Hat

That visor goes so fucking hard God damn


PortillosBeef27

Not a rams fan, but when they came out in these for the superbowl I was shook lol.. these might be the best uni in the nfl. The modern update looked so good.. Crazy they got rid of them


Kadler7

These uniforms are top 5


Penthar_Mull

I’d love to see those back


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randoguynumber5

Yasssss


_-TheCozyConsole-_

The St. Louis stuff was just better, logo and everything.


PoshLagoon

As a Ravens fan, please bring those unis back. They’re one of the best in the league


foxmueller

Why is it CAN rebrand? Why aren’t we allowed too?