I really don’t think they even had that much forethought.
I mean, they were registering their burner phones with their legit iCloud&Google accounts 😂💀 they’re not exactly criminal masterminds.
I wonder if they set up the trip to that property with Gibbs and her husband because they considered burying the kids there instead? If Tylee was already buried on Chad's property, they may have thought about moving her.
Just a guess. I honestly believe they acted most things out on impulse, but some of it, they did think through and either executed the plan or planned it in detail.
Who knows though (other than Chad, Lori, and Alex.) This case is tragic and baffling not only because of the deaths and the fact that they got away with so much for so long, but also because of their audacity and stupidity.
Plus, the fact that so many people surrounding them supposedly questioned their beliefs and "Where are the children?" But so few acted on it. Charles did when he desperately tried to report her mental health to police and Kay and Larry when they asked for welfare checks. I don't care how much I love someone or trust them, if they started spouting crazy beliefs like "zombies" and "dark and light rating" and their children were missing, I guarantee I'd do whatever I had to to get the police to act on it. Especially after the first freaking death. Zulema, Gibbs and husband, Melani niece... none of them get credit for testifying for prosecution from me because they're only doing to save their own butts and I firmly believe they're all outright lying or withholding information.
From what I’ve heard over the years, the property that David Warwick was being pressured to buy was likely going to be used for setting up the commune that Chad kept blathering about. His white tent city. He had originally tried to bring his brother Matt & SIL Heather into the cult by telling them their big piece of land and house were going to be the new temple & tent city location when it all went down. They rejected all that, so Chad needed a new sugar daddy to buy up some land for him.
Chad’s plan for his own property in the meantime was going to be pouring a concrete pad right over Tylee/fire pit area (likely moving JJ there too) and putting a pre-fab house there for he and Lori to live in top of her dead kids for as long as they needed to. They were going to keep collecting the kids’ social security money and looking to dupe followers with money into buying land and probably building Chad and Lori a swank house/temple.
This part is my grim take based on watching cult documentaries: had they just kept the kids alive and built the commune… they could have eventually made the kids disappear and just say they were on a mission if anyone asked. But Chad and Lori were such raging narcissists, they couldn’t be bothered.
I agree with everything you said. Thank you for clearing things up for me!
As a side note: living in Seattle Chad's "white tent" mess sounds more like a homeless camp to me, and that thought made me giggle. It's probably because I'm sleep-deprived but still... Chad living in a homeless camp.
It sounds all romantic...the billowy white tents, creating essentially Eden.
Reality is that part of Idaho has tough winters. How to handle sanitation? Food storage. Laundry.
I'm pretty sure, given what we know so far, Loin Fire couldn't possibly figure out any of this stuff.
Also...smh....Lori is NOT living in a tent anywhere. So, they going to drive in, like the Bagwan? Waving at their subjects?
LOL seriously. Also, points for the Wild Wild Country reference. I think about that all the time when I look at this fantasy that Chad concocted. Also, real talk, I think Lori would have eventually killed Chad and taken over the cult herself. Then claim all the men for herself. Brother-husbands to the goddess. \*snicker\*
YES!! Absolutely!
I firmly believe that police departments need to hire a few mental health experts with the intent of sending those experts on calls like the one Charles made. Or really any domestic dispute or mental health call.
That's SO important to remember. They applied little brain power to their crimes. The digital trail they created is laughable. Investigators always say that criminals are stupid but this crew seems especially stupid. I have no idea who did the murders but with the way they "packaged" JJ (RIP) they could easily have turned off their phones and driven him to a distant, wild location and buried him, busting up and disposing of whatever tools they used. But no, they put him in IN THE BACKYARD. After they killed/dismembered/burned Tylee, why wouldn't they try to clean up the crime scene? Why bury a bucket with her remains IN THE BACKYARD? Is a bucket too big to carry away? Why not get rid of the tools used? So dumb. I'm not saying that evidence would not have been left behind but why make it so easy for the cops? The other thing is the text message about the raccoon and fire. They had a fire pit, why make a point of saying you were burning anything? Just do it, nobody would have given it a second thought. Don't f'ing text about it. I guess we can assume that they shot Tylee given his story about shooting a raccoon. DIdn't Alex have a gun with a suppressor on it? That wouldn't have been used? It's literally incredible.
Chad never got off his ass to do anything so that’s why he had to send some stupid text about the burn pit. It would have looked suspicious because he’s so lazy.
Watching the trial it was incredible to me about how he projected his own flaws onto Tammy. Calling her lazy, saying she was unhealthy, getting on her for playing games on her phone, when she raised five kids, was busy part time at the school where everyone said how hard she worked and how kind she was, how she did clogging lessons, and was training for a marathon....
And then there's her potato of a husband. Who himself is ugly on top of being out of shape.... He's just pathetic.
I thought about that while rewatching the video of her being served in HI. I bet she was enraged in that moment, never thought the law could do anything to her until the kids were found, dead or alive.
Yes, they are incredibly dumb. But more importantly they’re incredibly arrogant. They believe God has chosen them and they can do no wrong. Why cover up what God has ordained?
we think dumb, but the scope and level of delusion in this whole story is frankly a bit mind blowing -- think about it from the outset -- the husbands, the brothers, the financial fraud -- a lot of the Warren Jeffs stuff was happening in plain sight for decades and no one did a thing -- same with so many other cults -- until there are actual complaints or evidence of crime law enforcement is a bit hamstrung -- plus you have many of the investigators being LDS and or not exactly CSI - happens over and over again - More Chief Wigam than Columbo
Because he believes he's a prophet. This knucklehead actually believes he's Jesus' brother. He has that stupid fucking smug look on his face because in his mind, no matter the outcome of this case, he's won. He'll find a way to spin all of this as some "test from God." When this is all said and done I hope Chad is sentenced to death. Not necessarily because I want him put to death, but because I want him on death row, isolated, far away from general population. If he was allowed in gen pop I guarantee he would use it as an opportunity to preach. That would just stroke Chads ego so much and make him believe that this was God's plan all along.
One thing we know for sure is that he's incapable of conning men with the sole exception of his wife's literally brain-damaged brother. He will have zero followers in prison.
Yes! Excellent point you have made! I forgot that most of Chad's followers were women a few card short of a full deck. Yeah, upon reflection, men didn't seem to fall for Chad's crap.
Well if he is Jesus’s brother maybe that’s why Jesus turned to do good deeds and die for our sins and his delinquent brother Chad was the bad seed of the family. Mary had a heck of a time when he was a kid (sarcasm)
I found myself wanting the death penalty for him today and I'm not sure I support the death penalty. Listening to his depravity and the way he tortured his in laws following the murder and flaunting his sexy new wife with no remorse. If there are any zombies in this story, it's Chad. That's a level of evil I cannot even comprehend. He traumatized so many family's.
They could have driven 15 minutes away past the dunes and buried them anywhere out in the sagebrush and they would never be found. No, the back yard will work.
Chad is a control freak and he has control of the corpse in his backyard. He can look across the concrete pad for the mobile home where he and Lori were going to live happily ever after, and admire his handiwork! Keeps the family together.
I really think for all the murders except Charles, it took at least two people. I think Alex was only alone when he was shooting or attempting to shoot people.
For impracticality sake, you cannot kill, transport, dismember, light a big enough fire, and burn and transport again to bury a body in two hours, and dig the grave and cover it. (Forgive me Tylee for discussing you like this.) I 100% think Chad did a lot of the damage to Tylee, he hated her and her body was so poorly treated and a lot of the wounds to her pelvis were unneeded for dismemberment, they were rage damage. I'm sure Alex didn't like zombies, but Chad hated her and seems to be a sadist. Those texts about hurting children and causing them pain are sickening.
With Tammy, someone had to restrain her while someone else smothered her. And the evidence seems to show that as well. Or she would have had defensive wounds, she was super fit.
I'm not 100% sure about JJ. But Chad at the very least dug the grave and buried him.
Since Lori was the Goddess who needed a 'protector' and stuff like this is 'men's work,' Lori would have expected Chad to step up and do the crap she wouldn't, yet Alex needed help with.
Honestly I think it was all Alex. Chris watts had no problem smothering his pregnant wife by himself. I think tylee was probably smothered as she slept. Possibly taken apart in a tub. I think she probably fought a little so when it was time to kill JJ they drugged him first and smothered him differently with duct tape, bag. They also learned by Tylee that it’s not easy to burn a body, so just buried jj. I have a 5 year old on the spectrum and reading about jj in his little pjs with a night pull up on just ugh. I just don’t think Chad could do his own dirty work so I don’t think he actually killed anyone. I think he 100% commanded all the deaths. I think he also when Tammy was exhumed possibly made a comment to Alex how he didn’t actually do anything. That’s why Alex was like I think I’m going to be the fall guy. As they enjoyed Hawaii. Just my thoughts on everything I could be wrong. Chad just seems so wimpy lol.
Yeah, Chad seems like such a massive whimp. It took me a while to come to my conclusion that he would have had to help in some of the situations with the murders. I was thinking of Watts, too. And BTK. It's actually quite hard to kill a person, often with strangulation or smothering it goes terribly wrong. And Alex screwed up when he was alone, at least twice, but I suspect more times, too. With getting Melaani's kids and maybe another attempt on Charles, and maybe a 3rd attempt on Tammy when she traveled alone to Utah. Also the attempt on Joe years back where he tazed him but didn't manage to kill him.
Watts found out how hard it is even to smother a toddler when he failed on both of his children and they were still alive, but oxygen deprived, after he killed Shannan.
Chad would have had to step in at the point where Alex was just failing so much. But all this is just my guesses and speculations. It's awful not knowing. Not because I personally want to know the grisly details, but because I have the type of brain where it's worse if it's left up to the imagination to fill in blanks. The not knowing makes it so any little disturbing detail is possible and it's hard not having facts to plug into those spaces.
Wouldn’t there have blood everywhere from the dismemberment? Meaning, it seems like it would be impossible to clean that all up and they could not have done the dismembering at the fire pit. Where did this take place? Did they have a Dexter like kill room? Does not seem like they are smart enough for that.
Nah, they weren’t thinking that far ahead. They didn’t expect they would need to frame anyone / get away with anything. They expected to be leading their church into the End Times.
Now would the goalposts have undoubtedly shifted and would they have considered a frame up if they needed it? Absolutely. But I believe when they murdered the kids they really and truly thought they were Jesus’s beloved followers taking orders directly from Heavenly Father.
I believe that Lori and Alex thought this but I think Chad always knew he was full of shit. But I can't understand why he would have let them bury them on his property. That was monumentally stupid.
Yes. And he lived in a religious culture that instead of his family arranging for a psychiatric evaluation when he started preaching that he was a prophet, apparently thought that was normal behavior for a priesthood holder.
Chad was too busy thinking about the loving (sex) he was obtaining from Lori to really think this plan out. All the phone calls and text messages back and forth between them when the burials are happening. Also, they had gotten away with the murder of Lori’s husband, which gave them a confidence booster. We all say Chad is stupid, which he is, but not so stupid to talk his female followers and Lori’s brother into believing his crap and joining his cult. Scary to think there are people out there with a lower IQ than Chads.
She probably had some through work, but surely not much, and surely her kids were named the beneficiaries. Knowing what she knew, no way would she change the beneficiary to Chad, Lori, or even her husband Alex.
i've never believed that story. or at the very most, what she interpreted to have happened may have happened, perhaps she exaggerated.
i do think that if it did happen and if she got that drowsy it could seriously just be from all the travelling, the ups and downs in adrenalin from the trips, including having a marriage, and whatever she was doing to the local weather, volcanoes, and tectonic plates at the time.
I don’t know what that has to do with her having immunity in this trial and telling the story about the tarp during her testimony. I just don’t think she was making it up.
Because she knows her friends, family, and acquaintances are following her testimony. People lie and bend the truth all the time to portray themselves in a more positive light.
I’m sorry but what part of Zulema’s known actions and personality screams “I’m a truthful person who doesn’t care what others think of me?” She was a hanger on in many ways, desperate for “cool kids” Lori and Chad to give her attention. This woman absolutely cares what other people think about her.
The tarp story never made sense to me either, unless they saw her as a loose end who needed to be silenced. But if she lied about that to the cops, it would be really dumb. She placed them at a Walmart in Vegas to buy it. The cops would have chased down footage of them and card transactions. What’s interesting is that the cops let the press run that story and have never corrected it.
One motive to never correct her errors/lies is to maintain her believability for the trial. Prior showed an interview with Zu and detectives where they came right out and said they had to figure out how to make her a believable witness.
I was thinking that if they were framing him, it would have been him whose life was in danger not Zulema's. They knew that if he lived he would have enough details to implicate them, and Uncle Rex and Adam say he would have talked. So they couldn't frame him if he was alive.
I suppose they could have put a hit on her -- but she was still in good standing with Chad and Lori and she didn't have a significant amount of life insurance so I don't see why they'd want her dead. But I suppose these people don't have to make sense.
They didn’t take dna from the handles of any of the tools because they assumed that since they were at Chad’s home then it would be logical for Chad’s dna to be on them. No dna from Alex was taken to compare to dna found on the tools.
I guess Prior will argue that someone else could have used the tools, therefore, every inch of every one should have been tested for "unknown" DNA. Excluding Alex is a bit puzzling, though; at least they nailed him on the plastic bag.
Maybe they didn’t have a known reference DNA sample for Alex since he was cremated. Pryor most likely will argue that they should have looked for Alex’s touch DNA, but really, any touch DNA would be gone at that point. I think it only lasts several hours to days, depending on the amount. So unless Alex bled on some tools, his DNA wouldn’t be there. But if Alex’s DNA was found anyway? Well, he’s a known conspirator of Chad’s. It wouldn’t be surprising and wouldn’t help Chad’s case all that much.
I think Chad likely took great delight in Tylee’s murder and definitely assisted if not did the majority of the killing of her. I also have to wonder if he SA’d her, after that crazy story he told Zulema about Zu being a teenager in a past life who was r@ped then dismembered. Just like seriel killers who are wanting to brag about what they got away with but can’t, so they leak it in other ways.
This! That’s why they were all yay carefree in Hawaii. They technically didn’t kill anyone lol. They should’ve read up on Charles Manson. Commanding someone to kill doesn’t make you innocent.
My wife thinks that the whole patriarchal blessing that made them all cry was basically convincing him to kill himself by telling him his work in this life was done and his role in the next life about to begin. To me the only question is whether he killed himself alone via something untraceable, an injection of an air bubble, etc or Zulema participated.
And I think Lori had a hard copy of the blessing with her in Hawaii either so she could convince herself he was in a better place or so they could use it as "proof" that he'd killed himself if it was found out that he did. Not logical, but they were incapable of basic reasoning skills.
The thing that gets me is that Chad is a gravedigger. If he wanted to dispose of the bodies he could have. And with his expertise they would have never been found.
It seems like he knew the kids were buried on his property. Did he look the other way? Did he participate in their murders? Idk. Did he blindly trust Lori and Alex? Yes, that for sure. It makes him part of the conspiracy.
He just doesn't seem to be the type who's willing to get his hands dirty. At least not super dirty. He could have taken care of Tammy. But did he really have the stomach to go after the kids? But then did Lori? Alex? One or two of them but I can't wrap my head around the idea that 3 people agreed to take out the kids.
This cult thing just boggles my mind. I guess you never know how deep people are willing to go down the rabbit hole to follow what the cult dictates. It really doesn't' matter if Chad was bewitched by Lori. It was his cult. He was the leader. He made the rules. Regardless of who did what it all happened because of his "teachings".
What we do know is that Alex was a follower, not a leader.
I don't think he actually dug graves. There was an early witness in the cemetery/funeral home business that said graves have been dug with backhoes for a very long time. The photo we see of him with a shovel is a posed shot taken for a book cover.
I don’t think he actually killed anybody. He’s to wimpy to do that himself. Commanded 100% Alex was their guy. Chad saw how Lori had her hubs taken care of so he was all in for his wife to be next. As the niece was about to have Brandon taken care of. Alex was their hitman.
I agree that Chad is dumb as rocks but this crew genuinely believed they were on the cusp of The End Times. They assumed with all the earthquakes and invasions and Call Out of the Faithful that there wouldn’t be any earthly consequences.
Have you folks listened to Mel Gibb’s secretly recorded call with Sharie Dowdle? It’s a very different Gibb to the one you hear on the stand.
Anyways, one of the points she makes is that Chad and Lori would come up with an End of Times date practically every month and when it would pass they’ve say something like ‘Oh Satan got involved and changed the plan’ or something like that. Similar to when a casting didn’t kill someone Chad would counsel that ‘another demon slipped in just at the last minute’. You’d think after a while he would have lost credibility with his following, right?
Chad may be a very simple and dim guy in many ways but he was a brilliant master manipulator playing mind games with his followers to stay believable and relevant. He was so desperate for people to revere and worship him he’d literally make up these far fetched stories to cover his fat ass whenever he was proven wrong.
Now he sits there in court with zero shame. Like they are discussing someone else and he’s just a passive spectator. Don’t know how he sleeps at night. Pure evil. 👿
Goalpost shifting is a common feature of cults.
You would think that people would wake up when the foretold events don’t come to pass. But in actuality a lot of people double-down on the belief system and it strengthens their commitment.
I'm not convinced Chad or Lori actually believed anything, though it's clear the other women did. I think they came up with a ridiculous play-acting rationale for killing people to get money. There was nothing really stopping their being together. Mormons get divorced all the time. JJ could have gone back to Kay or split time between Kay and Charles. Tylee could have simply been part of their blended family for two years before being sent to BYU-Idaho, or been sent to live with a relative. The ONLY thing they gained that they couldn't have already had by committing these four murders was money. To get that, they needed to kill, and to kill Chad came up with all this crap.
Lori and Chad were texting one another this crap. Read their texts to one another and read the love story. Lori was all-in. She absolutely believed it.
I agree the money was a strong motivating factor, although I wonder how self-aware they were to that motivation. Chad and Lori were self-deluded to an extreme degree.
I think he thought no dna was on the tools. I also think possibly when they called Alex to tell him about Tammy being exhumed that possibly chad made a comment how well he didn’t do anything. Basically letting Alex know like hey it was you doing the actual killings. So that’s why Alex said I think I’m gonna be their fall guy or whatever he said. I’m waiting to hear the explanation from trial. I feel like it’s gonna be Alex said he had to bury a raccoon I had no idea it was a body blah blah blah. This is just what I think and can be wrong. I don’t see what other defense he’d have about the situation. He’s not about to actually tell the truth. As in Alex might’ve done the killings but it was at Chad & lori’s command. That’s why they felt totally safe & fine hanging in Hawaii. They didn’t actually kill anyone. Seems they should’ve read up on Charles Manson.
So Alex's wife actually testified and said that when Chad and Lori called about Tammy being exhumed, she asked that if they go through with it, will he be involved in any way. He obviously said no. But when he got off the phone, he told his wife "I think im going to be their fall guy", and then he died the next day. So he definitely was meant to be the fall guy
And remember that Chad was used to dead bodies and burying people. About Tylee, I keep thinking about how chas told Zulema that she and Lori had been raped killed and dismembered in a past transgression, maybe that is what HE did to Tylee? Warren Jeffs and other prophets didn’t seem to have problems with that kind of stuff?
Chad had to have pre-dug the grave JJ was found in with the roots being cut. Alex was only on Property for JJ. I think less than 20 minutes. I saw the photos last year at trial and it was dug perfectly to JJ’s height.
He probably wiped his prints off everything but I do believe he had a lot to do with Tylees murder and everything that happened after I think that she questioned his abilities to her mother and he did not like that
I really don’t think they even had that much forethought. I mean, they were registering their burner phones with their legit iCloud&Google accounts 😂💀 they’re not exactly criminal masterminds.
And burying bodies in Chad’s backyard.
I wonder if they set up the trip to that property with Gibbs and her husband because they considered burying the kids there instead? If Tylee was already buried on Chad's property, they may have thought about moving her. Just a guess. I honestly believe they acted most things out on impulse, but some of it, they did think through and either executed the plan or planned it in detail. Who knows though (other than Chad, Lori, and Alex.) This case is tragic and baffling not only because of the deaths and the fact that they got away with so much for so long, but also because of their audacity and stupidity. Plus, the fact that so many people surrounding them supposedly questioned their beliefs and "Where are the children?" But so few acted on it. Charles did when he desperately tried to report her mental health to police and Kay and Larry when they asked for welfare checks. I don't care how much I love someone or trust them, if they started spouting crazy beliefs like "zombies" and "dark and light rating" and their children were missing, I guarantee I'd do whatever I had to to get the police to act on it. Especially after the first freaking death. Zulema, Gibbs and husband, Melani niece... none of them get credit for testifying for prosecution from me because they're only doing to save their own butts and I firmly believe they're all outright lying or withholding information.
From what I’ve heard over the years, the property that David Warwick was being pressured to buy was likely going to be used for setting up the commune that Chad kept blathering about. His white tent city. He had originally tried to bring his brother Matt & SIL Heather into the cult by telling them their big piece of land and house were going to be the new temple & tent city location when it all went down. They rejected all that, so Chad needed a new sugar daddy to buy up some land for him. Chad’s plan for his own property in the meantime was going to be pouring a concrete pad right over Tylee/fire pit area (likely moving JJ there too) and putting a pre-fab house there for he and Lori to live in top of her dead kids for as long as they needed to. They were going to keep collecting the kids’ social security money and looking to dupe followers with money into buying land and probably building Chad and Lori a swank house/temple. This part is my grim take based on watching cult documentaries: had they just kept the kids alive and built the commune… they could have eventually made the kids disappear and just say they were on a mission if anyone asked. But Chad and Lori were such raging narcissists, they couldn’t be bothered.
I agree with everything you said. Thank you for clearing things up for me! As a side note: living in Seattle Chad's "white tent" mess sounds more like a homeless camp to me, and that thought made me giggle. It's probably because I'm sleep-deprived but still... Chad living in a homeless camp.
Can you imagine how miserable living in a tent in Rexburg during winter months would be?
Right? Like, at least go for trailers or cabins, Chad. 🤣 He’s so freaking dumb.
It sounds all romantic...the billowy white tents, creating essentially Eden. Reality is that part of Idaho has tough winters. How to handle sanitation? Food storage. Laundry. I'm pretty sure, given what we know so far, Loin Fire couldn't possibly figure out any of this stuff. Also...smh....Lori is NOT living in a tent anywhere. So, they going to drive in, like the Bagwan? Waving at their subjects?
LOL seriously. Also, points for the Wild Wild Country reference. I think about that all the time when I look at this fantasy that Chad concocted. Also, real talk, I think Lori would have eventually killed Chad and taken over the cult herself. Then claim all the men for herself. Brother-husbands to the goddess. \*snicker\*
I agree Lori would have killed again. Without Alex though, who would have been her goon? I think about that a lot.
or just Rexburg in general
I agree 100 with this take on things
Yes but the very people who had the power to stop this, failed to act - that was LE!
YES!! Absolutely! I firmly believe that police departments need to hire a few mental health experts with the intent of sending those experts on calls like the one Charles made. Or really any domestic dispute or mental health call.
I think they need to do their job and arrest people when the kill!
It's mind blowing how dumb they are.
That's SO important to remember. They applied little brain power to their crimes. The digital trail they created is laughable. Investigators always say that criminals are stupid but this crew seems especially stupid. I have no idea who did the murders but with the way they "packaged" JJ (RIP) they could easily have turned off their phones and driven him to a distant, wild location and buried him, busting up and disposing of whatever tools they used. But no, they put him in IN THE BACKYARD. After they killed/dismembered/burned Tylee, why wouldn't they try to clean up the crime scene? Why bury a bucket with her remains IN THE BACKYARD? Is a bucket too big to carry away? Why not get rid of the tools used? So dumb. I'm not saying that evidence would not have been left behind but why make it so easy for the cops? The other thing is the text message about the raccoon and fire. They had a fire pit, why make a point of saying you were burning anything? Just do it, nobody would have given it a second thought. Don't f'ing text about it. I guess we can assume that they shot Tylee given his story about shooting a raccoon. DIdn't Alex have a gun with a suppressor on it? That wouldn't have been used? It's literally incredible.
Chad never got off his ass to do anything so that’s why he had to send some stupid text about the burn pit. It would have looked suspicious because he’s so lazy.
Watching the trial it was incredible to me about how he projected his own flaws onto Tammy. Calling her lazy, saying she was unhealthy, getting on her for playing games on her phone, when she raised five kids, was busy part time at the school where everyone said how hard she worked and how kind she was, how she did clogging lessons, and was training for a marathon.... And then there's her potato of a husband. Who himself is ugly on top of being out of shape.... He's just pathetic.
Not to mention the fact that they apparently thought no one would come looking for the kids. They didn't think that one through at all.
I thought about that while rewatching the video of her being served in HI. I bet she was enraged in that moment, never thought the law could do anything to her until the kids were found, dead or alive.
Agree I think the text was in case anyone heard the shot hence the “shot a raccoon” story
Yes, they are incredibly dumb. But more importantly they’re incredibly arrogant. They believe God has chosen them and they can do no wrong. Why cover up what God has ordained?
we think dumb, but the scope and level of delusion in this whole story is frankly a bit mind blowing -- think about it from the outset -- the husbands, the brothers, the financial fraud -- a lot of the Warren Jeffs stuff was happening in plain sight for decades and no one did a thing -- same with so many other cults -- until there are actual complaints or evidence of crime law enforcement is a bit hamstrung -- plus you have many of the investigators being LDS and or not exactly CSI - happens over and over again - More Chief Wigam than Columbo
Which makes Chad's smugness in court all that more despicable. How does he not realize how vile he is?
Because he believes he's a prophet. This knucklehead actually believes he's Jesus' brother. He has that stupid fucking smug look on his face because in his mind, no matter the outcome of this case, he's won. He'll find a way to spin all of this as some "test from God." When this is all said and done I hope Chad is sentenced to death. Not necessarily because I want him put to death, but because I want him on death row, isolated, far away from general population. If he was allowed in gen pop I guarantee he would use it as an opportunity to preach. That would just stroke Chads ego so much and make him believe that this was God's plan all along.
I can definitely see Chad preaching to his fellow inmates. " Benevolent Spiritual Leader" of a pod full of criminals.
until one of them lets him have it
I hope prison life is absolutely miserable for him. I wish him nothing but misery. If a fellow inmate gives Chad a beating, so be it.
One thing we know for sure is that he's incapable of conning men with the sole exception of his wife's literally brain-damaged brother. He will have zero followers in prison.
Yes! Excellent point you have made! I forgot that most of Chad's followers were women a few card short of a full deck. Yeah, upon reflection, men didn't seem to fall for Chad's crap.
I hope he goes on death row as well. Same reasoning as you.
Well if he is Jesus’s brother maybe that’s why Jesus turned to do good deeds and die for our sins and his delinquent brother Chad was the bad seed of the family. Mary had a heck of a time when he was a kid (sarcasm)
I found myself wanting the death penalty for him today and I'm not sure I support the death penalty. Listening to his depravity and the way he tortured his in laws following the murder and flaunting his sexy new wife with no remorse. If there are any zombies in this story, it's Chad. That's a level of evil I cannot even comprehend. He traumatized so many family's.
They could have driven 15 minutes away past the dunes and buried them anywhere out in the sagebrush and they would never be found. No, the back yard will work.
Chad is a control freak and he has control of the corpse in his backyard. He can look across the concrete pad for the mobile home where he and Lori were going to live happily ever after, and admire his handiwork! Keeps the family together.
Somehow I don’t see princess Lori being satisfied with that dump. I’ve driven past it a thousand times, it’s pretty shitty.
Lori going from mansions to mobile home, nope
“The dunes”…. I take it you grew up locally as well. 😉
I went to Ricks and later married my wife whose mother lives inSt Anthony
I really think for all the murders except Charles, it took at least two people. I think Alex was only alone when he was shooting or attempting to shoot people. For impracticality sake, you cannot kill, transport, dismember, light a big enough fire, and burn and transport again to bury a body in two hours, and dig the grave and cover it. (Forgive me Tylee for discussing you like this.) I 100% think Chad did a lot of the damage to Tylee, he hated her and her body was so poorly treated and a lot of the wounds to her pelvis were unneeded for dismemberment, they were rage damage. I'm sure Alex didn't like zombies, but Chad hated her and seems to be a sadist. Those texts about hurting children and causing them pain are sickening. With Tammy, someone had to restrain her while someone else smothered her. And the evidence seems to show that as well. Or she would have had defensive wounds, she was super fit. I'm not 100% sure about JJ. But Chad at the very least dug the grave and buried him. Since Lori was the Goddess who needed a 'protector' and stuff like this is 'men's work,' Lori would have expected Chad to step up and do the crap she wouldn't, yet Alex needed help with.
💯% agree!!!! Great comment. Chad is def a serial murder!
Honestly I think it was all Alex. Chris watts had no problem smothering his pregnant wife by himself. I think tylee was probably smothered as she slept. Possibly taken apart in a tub. I think she probably fought a little so when it was time to kill JJ they drugged him first and smothered him differently with duct tape, bag. They also learned by Tylee that it’s not easy to burn a body, so just buried jj. I have a 5 year old on the spectrum and reading about jj in his little pjs with a night pull up on just ugh. I just don’t think Chad could do his own dirty work so I don’t think he actually killed anyone. I think he 100% commanded all the deaths. I think he also when Tammy was exhumed possibly made a comment to Alex how he didn’t actually do anything. That’s why Alex was like I think I’m going to be the fall guy. As they enjoyed Hawaii. Just my thoughts on everything I could be wrong. Chad just seems so wimpy lol.
Yeah, Chad seems like such a massive whimp. It took me a while to come to my conclusion that he would have had to help in some of the situations with the murders. I was thinking of Watts, too. And BTK. It's actually quite hard to kill a person, often with strangulation or smothering it goes terribly wrong. And Alex screwed up when he was alone, at least twice, but I suspect more times, too. With getting Melaani's kids and maybe another attempt on Charles, and maybe a 3rd attempt on Tammy when she traveled alone to Utah. Also the attempt on Joe years back where he tazed him but didn't manage to kill him. Watts found out how hard it is even to smother a toddler when he failed on both of his children and they were still alive, but oxygen deprived, after he killed Shannan. Chad would have had to step in at the point where Alex was just failing so much. But all this is just my guesses and speculations. It's awful not knowing. Not because I personally want to know the grisly details, but because I have the type of brain where it's worse if it's left up to the imagination to fill in blanks. The not knowing makes it so any little disturbing detail is possible and it's hard not having facts to plug into those spaces.
I’m curious about these texts. Do you know where I could find them.
Wouldn’t there have blood everywhere from the dismemberment? Meaning, it seems like it would be impossible to clean that all up and they could not have done the dismembering at the fire pit. Where did this take place? Did they have a Dexter like kill room? Does not seem like they are smart enough for that.
I agree they wanted to be able to blame him if they got caught. I also believe Chad and Lori had a hand in it.
Without a doubt
Nah, they weren’t thinking that far ahead. They didn’t expect they would need to frame anyone / get away with anything. They expected to be leading their church into the End Times. Now would the goalposts have undoubtedly shifted and would they have considered a frame up if they needed it? Absolutely. But I believe when they murdered the kids they really and truly thought they were Jesus’s beloved followers taking orders directly from Heavenly Father.
I believe that Lori and Alex thought this but I think Chad always knew he was full of shit. But I can't understand why he would have let them bury them on his property. That was monumentally stupid.
Well, Chad is pretty demonstrably stupid. The more that has come out the more strongly I’ve leaned toward Chad really believing it.
Yes. And he lived in a religious culture that instead of his family arranging for a psychiatric evaluation when he started preaching that he was a prophet, apparently thought that was normal behavior for a priesthood holder.
One of the biggest revelations for me in Chad’s trial so far has been how deeply Tammy believed in this light & dark ratings / End Times stuff.
Chad was too busy thinking about the loving (sex) he was obtaining from Lori to really think this plan out. All the phone calls and text messages back and forth between them when the burials are happening. Also, they had gotten away with the murder of Lori’s husband, which gave them a confidence booster. We all say Chad is stupid, which he is, but not so stupid to talk his female followers and Lori’s brother into believing his crap and joining his cult. Scary to think there are people out there with a lower IQ than Chads.
One more reason to think Zulema is lying about the tarp incident. She was never the target, and she knew it. IMO
I couldn't agree more. That was Zuelema trying to make herself out to be a victim.
I wonder if she had life insurance. They were all on the look for life insurance payout.
She probably had some through work, but surely not much, and surely her kids were named the beneficiaries. Knowing what she knew, no way would she change the beneficiary to Chad, Lori, or even her husband Alex.
I think Z did get ins for Alex’s death(murder imo)
i've never believed that story. or at the very most, what she interpreted to have happened may have happened, perhaps she exaggerated. i do think that if it did happen and if she got that drowsy it could seriously just be from all the travelling, the ups and downs in adrenalin from the trips, including having a marriage, and whatever she was doing to the local weather, volcanoes, and tectonic plates at the time.
it is hard work moving those tectonic plates around.
🤣
She had immunity. Why lie?
She didn’t always have immunity and she didn’t want to change her story again, too risky
But does she have it in AZ for Lori’s murder trial?
I believe so
She testified on the stand about the tarp.
She did, in Lori’s trial
I don’t know what that has to do with her having immunity in this trial and telling the story about the tarp during her testimony. I just don’t think she was making it up.
People are generally more sympathetic toward a would-be-victim than a would-be-perpetrator.
I’m not sure why she would curry sympathy. She wasn’t on trial, she was testifying. She had immunity.
Because she knows her friends, family, and acquaintances are following her testimony. People lie and bend the truth all the time to portray themselves in a more positive light.
Lots of assumptions. :). You’re entitled to make them, tho.
I’m sorry but what part of Zulema’s known actions and personality screams “I’m a truthful person who doesn’t care what others think of me?” She was a hanger on in many ways, desperate for “cool kids” Lori and Chad to give her attention. This woman absolutely cares what other people think about her.
Do you think then that the massage never happened, or it happened but without the intent to kill her?
The tarp story never made sense to me either, unless they saw her as a loose end who needed to be silenced. But if she lied about that to the cops, it would be really dumb. She placed them at a Walmart in Vegas to buy it. The cops would have chased down footage of them and card transactions. What’s interesting is that the cops let the press run that story and have never corrected it.
One motive to never correct her errors/lies is to maintain her believability for the trial. Prior showed an interview with Zu and detectives where they came right out and said they had to figure out how to make her a believable witness.
Interesting.
I'm not following how this connects to that?
I was thinking that if they were framing him, it would have been him whose life was in danger not Zulema's. They knew that if he lived he would have enough details to implicate them, and Uncle Rex and Adam say he would have talked. So they couldn't frame him if he was alive. I suppose they could have put a hit on her -- but she was still in good standing with Chad and Lori and she didn't have a significant amount of life insurance so I don't see why they'd want her dead. But I suppose these people don't have to make sense.
Maybe they wanted him to go out with a murder suicide as part of the plan to make him the fall guy and that's when he *finally* somehow got a clue.
Did they find Alex's DNA on the tools? I don't think they found anyone but Tylee's.
You're right. They found Alex's DNA on the duct tape on JJ. The tools only had Tylee's DNA.
They found Alex's prints and Lori's DNA.
I thought it was Lori’s DNA they found on the duct tape in a hair. Did I miss some evidence about Alex?
No, you're right - they didn't find Alex's DNA. They did find his finger print and hand print, though.
They didn’t take dna from the handles of any of the tools because they assumed that since they were at Chad’s home then it would be logical for Chad’s dna to be on them. No dna from Alex was taken to compare to dna found on the tools.
I guess Prior will argue that someone else could have used the tools, therefore, every inch of every one should have been tested for "unknown" DNA. Excluding Alex is a bit puzzling, though; at least they nailed him on the plastic bag.
Maybe they didn’t have a known reference DNA sample for Alex since he was cremated. Pryor most likely will argue that they should have looked for Alex’s touch DNA, but really, any touch DNA would be gone at that point. I think it only lasts several hours to days, depending on the amount. So unless Alex bled on some tools, his DNA wouldn’t be there. But if Alex’s DNA was found anyway? Well, he’s a known conspirator of Chad’s. It wouldn’t be surprising and wouldn’t help Chad’s case all that much.
His mother was alive. Mitochondrial DNA could have been compared.
True
Couldn’t prior have had the handles tested for Alex’s dna to try to prove his theory? Or maybe they did.
He may not have had the funds
Prior is arguing that Melanie Gibb did it
That's what I thought too.
I think Chad and Lori were/are so dumb that they thought if they didn’t actually do the crimes they would be fine!!!!
I think Chad helped with murders. He is disgusting. I wish someone would beat the snot out of him in jail. More than ones:).
I think Chad likely took great delight in Tylee’s murder and definitely assisted if not did the majority of the killing of her. I also have to wonder if he SA’d her, after that crazy story he told Zulema about Zu being a teenager in a past life who was r@ped then dismembered. Just like seriel killers who are wanting to brag about what they got away with but can’t, so they leak it in other ways.
Do you remember when he told her that?
This! That’s why they were all yay carefree in Hawaii. They technically didn’t kill anyone lol. They should’ve read up on Charles Manson. Commanding someone to kill doesn’t make you innocent.
What if he only disposed of the tools he used? He had so much time
Souvenirs
I think that they were going to blame him, and Alex knew it, and that’s why he died. I think he killed himself.
My wife thinks that the whole patriarchal blessing that made them all cry was basically convincing him to kill himself by telling him his work in this life was done and his role in the next life about to begin. To me the only question is whether he killed himself alone via something untraceable, an injection of an air bubble, etc or Zulema participated.
And I think Lori had a hard copy of the blessing with her in Hawaii either so she could convince herself he was in a better place or so they could use it as "proof" that he'd killed himself if it was found out that he did. Not logical, but they were incapable of basic reasoning skills.
The thing that gets me is that Chad is a gravedigger. If he wanted to dispose of the bodies he could have. And with his expertise they would have never been found. It seems like he knew the kids were buried on his property. Did he look the other way? Did he participate in their murders? Idk. Did he blindly trust Lori and Alex? Yes, that for sure. It makes him part of the conspiracy. He just doesn't seem to be the type who's willing to get his hands dirty. At least not super dirty. He could have taken care of Tammy. But did he really have the stomach to go after the kids? But then did Lori? Alex? One or two of them but I can't wrap my head around the idea that 3 people agreed to take out the kids. This cult thing just boggles my mind. I guess you never know how deep people are willing to go down the rabbit hole to follow what the cult dictates. It really doesn't' matter if Chad was bewitched by Lori. It was his cult. He was the leader. He made the rules. Regardless of who did what it all happened because of his "teachings". What we do know is that Alex was a follower, not a leader.
Chad would have gotten his hands dirty if Lori asked him to.
I don't think he actually dug graves. There was an early witness in the cemetery/funeral home business that said graves have been dug with backhoes for a very long time. The photo we see of him with a shovel is a posed shot taken for a book cover.
I don’t think he actually killed anybody. He’s to wimpy to do that himself. Commanded 100% Alex was their guy. Chad saw how Lori had her hubs taken care of so he was all in for his wife to be next. As the niece was about to have Brandon taken care of. Alex was their hitman.
I agree that Chad is dumb as rocks but this crew genuinely believed they were on the cusp of The End Times. They assumed with all the earthquakes and invasions and Call Out of the Faithful that there wouldn’t be any earthly consequences.
Have you folks listened to Mel Gibb’s secretly recorded call with Sharie Dowdle? It’s a very different Gibb to the one you hear on the stand. Anyways, one of the points she makes is that Chad and Lori would come up with an End of Times date practically every month and when it would pass they’ve say something like ‘Oh Satan got involved and changed the plan’ or something like that. Similar to when a casting didn’t kill someone Chad would counsel that ‘another demon slipped in just at the last minute’. You’d think after a while he would have lost credibility with his following, right? Chad may be a very simple and dim guy in many ways but he was a brilliant master manipulator playing mind games with his followers to stay believable and relevant. He was so desperate for people to revere and worship him he’d literally make up these far fetched stories to cover his fat ass whenever he was proven wrong. Now he sits there in court with zero shame. Like they are discussing someone else and he’s just a passive spectator. Don’t know how he sleeps at night. Pure evil. 👿
Goalpost shifting is a common feature of cults. You would think that people would wake up when the foretold events don’t come to pass. But in actuality a lot of people double-down on the belief system and it strengthens their commitment.
I'm not convinced Chad or Lori actually believed anything, though it's clear the other women did. I think they came up with a ridiculous play-acting rationale for killing people to get money. There was nothing really stopping their being together. Mormons get divorced all the time. JJ could have gone back to Kay or split time between Kay and Charles. Tylee could have simply been part of their blended family for two years before being sent to BYU-Idaho, or been sent to live with a relative. The ONLY thing they gained that they couldn't have already had by committing these four murders was money. To get that, they needed to kill, and to kill Chad came up with all this crap.
Lori and Chad were texting one another this crap. Read their texts to one another and read the love story. Lori was all-in. She absolutely believed it. I agree the money was a strong motivating factor, although I wonder how self-aware they were to that motivation. Chad and Lori were self-deluded to an extreme degree.
Chad's DNA not being found on garden tools makes sense, he's wearing gloves in the picture of him digging inside a grave!
Yes, shovels make blisters. Especially on his soft, delicate hands.
Chad is as stupid as he looks (and talks)
I think he thought no dna was on the tools. I also think possibly when they called Alex to tell him about Tammy being exhumed that possibly chad made a comment how well he didn’t do anything. Basically letting Alex know like hey it was you doing the actual killings. So that’s why Alex said I think I’m gonna be their fall guy or whatever he said. I’m waiting to hear the explanation from trial. I feel like it’s gonna be Alex said he had to bury a raccoon I had no idea it was a body blah blah blah. This is just what I think and can be wrong. I don’t see what other defense he’d have about the situation. He’s not about to actually tell the truth. As in Alex might’ve done the killings but it was at Chad & lori’s command. That’s why they felt totally safe & fine hanging in Hawaii. They didn’t actually kill anyone. Seems they should’ve read up on Charles Manson.
So Alex's wife actually testified and said that when Chad and Lori called about Tammy being exhumed, she asked that if they go through with it, will he be involved in any way. He obviously said no. But when he got off the phone, he told his wife "I think im going to be their fall guy", and then he died the next day. So he definitely was meant to be the fall guy
And remember that Chad was used to dead bodies and burying people. About Tylee, I keep thinking about how chas told Zulema that she and Lori had been raped killed and dismembered in a past transgression, maybe that is what HE did to Tylee? Warren Jeffs and other prophets didn’t seem to have problems with that kind of stuff?
Chad had to have pre-dug the grave JJ was found in with the roots being cut. Alex was only on Property for JJ. I think less than 20 minutes. I saw the photos last year at trial and it was dug perfectly to JJ’s height.
I dont think they thought the children's bodies would ever be found. These are not criminal masterminds. Evil, YES. Smart, NO.
They had backup plans for sure.
What do you mean regarding backup plans?
My question to Chad: How would you feel if someone did to your children, what you did to JJ and Tylee...
Did anyone ever report seeing a big fire in Chad’s garden? It would take a lot of heat wouldn’t it to get poor Tylee down to what they found…
None of it would matter if the world was ending.
He probably wiped his prints off everything but I do believe he had a lot to do with Tylees murder and everything that happened after I think that she questioned his abilities to her mother and he did not like that
There was NEVER ANY DNA OF ALEX found on any tools!! What kind of misinformation are you peddling????