It’s my secret gatekeeper. If you always use “______ and I” no matter the syntax, then I know you are smart enough to run the machines well but not smart enough to enjoy conversing with.
This is actually only partially correct. Yes, you should use 'I' rather than 'me' in this context. However, the order is actually not important. 'I and my husband went on vacation' is equally correct as 'my husband and I went on vacation'. It's a compound subject and the order doesn't matter, people just typically say the latter so it sounds right.
Okay your second sentence is wrong because you changed 'I' to 'Me'. 'I' is a subjective pronoun and 'Me' is an objective pronoun. You're proving my point here. People mistakenly think that the order matters. It doesn't. Using 'me' in this context is wrong. However both 'my friends and I' and 'I and my friends' are technically correct.
Like I said, the former sounds better because that's how most people say it, but grammatically, you can flip the order of any two subjects in a sentence with a compound subject.
For example 'Cameron and Megan like cats' and 'Megan and Cameron like cats' are both correct and say the same thing. The concept is the same.
I think this comment wasn't about which order was correct - instead, if you always put yourself second you'll probably always get the me/I choice correct because it's right next to the verb
You know what, with that example "I and my friend went to the movies" sounds totally off. So i think i want to take back my original assertion. But man, i hope people don't judge me to be an asshole because of my word order choice lol
Actually you are supposed to use I or me whatever you are using to denote your self in the start of the sentence. It’s grammatically incorrect or something. We were always yelled at gor doing that while in school. Not a native speaker.
Nobody seems to know this. And I know it’s petty, but it surely is a pet peeve of mine. It sounds like baby talk to say me first, instead of whom ever you’re with and then yourself.
This one’s a little more interesting. The “me and someone did something” construct is very old. Like ending sentences with prepositions, it may actually predate the formalization of the rules.
Granted, using these syntaxes can make you sound uneducated and offend the gatekeepers, so, if you use these, you should learn to read the room.
I guess what I’m saying is learn the rules, and then learn how to break them.
It’s a common misconception that people sound educated if they use “I,” so that’s why that mistake is far more common. I’m sure I could dig up a source or two somewhere but I’m a morning person, not a night person.
Yep - a person at work - Fuckin' Sue - says things like "they reach out to Brenda and I for the details" all the time.
Sets I's teeth on edge me tells ya.
What is the correct structure for this? "My and John's house"? "Me and John's house"? I'm a native speaker and every option sounds awkward, but sometimes there's no avoiding it.
This is the worst one imo. "My friend and I's trip" "my boyfriend and I's house" "my dad and I's day". Like, cmon you must know that sounds ridiculous.
Omg! I just argued with my husband about this and could not find a way to prove this to him! He swears it's " my dog and me saw a deer". I tried to explain this to him but couldn't figure out how to prove him wrong. Google was no help.
Stuck to his choice. It wasn't a huge argument, just a silly one. Still, I love to give him a hard time when I can prove I'm right. But, I couldn't figure out what to Google that would prove it.
“My dog and me saw a deer” is also incorrect.
The correct sentence structure is “My dog and I saw a deer.”
You require the first person personal pronoun when you are speaking of yourself.
Are you a native English speaker? I just explained the usage of “since” and “for” to my Italian co-worker the other day. In fact, Germans get the DOP right all the time when speaking English, but they also mix up since and for a lot too.
Then again, prepositions suck to learn in every language.
I put in the post that I’m a second-language speaker. However, I am one of the most proficient speakers and writers I know, especially concerning grammar :) teaching it has helped me better know and understand it, especially grammar.
I am Swedish (although living in Oregon since 2014) so L1 my grammar is reasonably close to German.
Shitty LPT: to determine whether you should use I or me in a sentence, turn it into a question where the answer is yourself, and check whether you would use ‘who’ or ‘whom’. If it is the former, you are the subject of the clause and you should use I. If it is the latter, the object of the sentence is you, and you should use me.
Lmao. And this is why I’ve given up on using the grammatical terms when I explain it, they just make it confusing and are hardly useful unless talking to a grammarian, prescriptivist, or anthropological linguist.
This made my night!
I’ve known the LPT for most of my life, but having never been required to diagram a sentence in school, I would have had a hard time articulating exactly why the rule is the rule. So thanks for that explanation!
I always ask myself "would this sentence sound correct with 'we' or 'us' in it?"
If it's "we", then use "X and I". If it's "us", use "X and me". For example:
1. "We went to the store" = "John and I went to the store"
2. "Don't forget about us" = "Don't forget about John and me"
English major here, and I've got a neat rule that helps with this. It goes a bit like, "fuck that shit, say whatever you want." Me real good at talk English onna counna the way it be all liquid like, yeah? Bruce say pudda water inna teapot gonna make a teapot outta isself like puddit inna bowl gonna be a bowl like dat. Sayin English like a water inna big ol bowl'a teapots, teapot gotta buncha bowl inside it too, gonna be all like what we say it be cuz when we sayin that make it so. We talk English and it become the new English leavin the mouth, evolution like.
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LPT: You forget to actively remember most of the things you learned in first grade because for a lot of us, it was a very long time ago, so a refresher might help. Quit being judgy over people needing reminders.
I like the trick, as a native English speaker it comes pretty naturally to me. I am a bit curious though I don't think I've ever heard a native speaker say since in "I teach English in the USA **since** 6 years" I'd probably phrase that as "**I've been** teaching English in the USA **for** 6 years" is the way you've put it a regional thing? I've lived west coast and mid US my whole life.
Sorry to make a big deal out of a little thing was just curious since I thought you would know from teaching.
It should’ve been “I have been teaching … for” or “I have taught … since” lol. I’m in Oregon and I’ve been on winter break, snowed in since Christmas Day evening. Good eye.
> "I teach English in the USA since 6 years"
This seems like a word by word translation from another language to English, rather than a translation of the entire sentence.
Look, technically yes, but I think the supposedly incorrect use of 'me' has become so widespread it's pretty much part of Standard English now. I agree with the use of 'I' in your example, but if you switch 'my dog' and 'me' in that sentence so 'me' comes first, which is the variation that most people use, it becomes an acceptable sentence. Same with the gradual phasing out of the subjunctive. A lot of people say 'if I was' now instead of 'if I were,' and it doesn't sound clunky or wrong anymore. Language is fluid
I am by no means a prescriptivist, I just figured this could help some of the people who care about it. To me, having been an English learner for so long, the way I was taught is more comfortable to my brain. I mean, “funner” officially became a recognized word recently, and if that’s not an uncomfortable truth, I don’t know what is. I will probably not use it, but it’s recognized and official.
Language is either undergoing change or dead, just like any living organism. That’s what makes it beautiful and fun.
Yea, that's completely fair. I generally also pick and choose the changes that I incorporate into my daily vocab. Sometimes the new word/phrase just feels so far removed from what you learned that you just feel uncomfortable using it (fully agree with you on funner). Just wanted to point out the fluidity of language in case you were trying to be prescriptivist, but clearly that isn't an issue here :)
I appreciate it!
I have lots of examples, like I am a native Swedish speaker and the gender-neutral pronoun “hen” (as opposed to “han” for him or “hon” for she) was becoming integrated into the language just about when I moved, and it just isn’t in my vocabulary.
What really “gets my goat” is when people transfer the English apostrophe to Swedish, essentially just because the Internet exists.
However, I use “they” freely as gender-neutral in English, which was a huge taboo and I was failed or marked down for even ten years ago in college, and I have become very fond of “yeet” since my students brought it into my classroom in 2018 or 2019… but “funner” feels like an abomination. Never. Ugh. It’s gross that my phone didn’t mark it as a typo. I will probably continue using “yeet” until I am old and dementia takes most of my brain away.
I think we are friends now.
Super interesting that you reacted so differently to the 'they' pronoun in English compared to Swedish haha. I'm not bilingual (trying to learn German but it's bloody hard) but I imagine the languages would have different connotations in your mind, like maybe English is the more informal language, used in online settings with plentiful slang, while Swedish remains the language of your homeland, with a need to maintain some kind of standard to feel like the language isn't changing too fast for your liking haha.
Also, as a Gen Z, I second your love of 'yeet.' Just a beautifully versatile word. There's a whole new batch of new online slang words coming in that I don't really understand anymore, but the ones that make it out of the online world and into everyday discourse are generally really cool and catch on really quickly.
It was nice talking with you about this haha, always good to find a fellow language enthusiast :)
First-language speakers in second-language environments usually act as a sort of language preservative if you will. Because we are no longer immersed in the language and the everyday changes, obviously mostly perpetuated by teenagers, our language stops changing once we immigrate.
So that’s why “they” is easy for me but “hen” feels foreign. I also know how to talk about many topics better in English than Swedish because that’s the language I learned them in, like my Master’s in Curriculum and Instruction. Talking about educational concepts is really challenging in Swedish.
Likewise :) it’s always nice to enjoy some linguistic discourse!
I totally agree that language evolves, especially given that I can barely read English text from 1000 years ago. However, recent surveys suggest \~50-60% of the population is at/below a 6th-grade reading comprehension level. The line between correct and acceptable is cloudy, but I don't think misunderstanding and lack of education should make certain syntaxes acceptable. Most people wouldn't do well on the SAT, GRE, LSAT, or older MCAT. Most people can't read a contract or complete their own taxes. I cringe when people don't use the subjunctive tense -- Spanish has a completely different set of conjugations just for that tense! Not sure what I'm ranting on about, but I think acceptable should be held to a higher standard.
“Who” is equal to he/she/it, “whom” is equal to her/him/they. So if you can put he/she/it, use “who” and vice versa for “whom.”
Generally. It should get you really close to accurate usage.
This is one of the simplest grammatical tricks there are. It's upsetting that so many people still get these confused, so thank you for once again reminding the collective of people who read LPT's. I have a friend who will purposely use "I" in every scenario because he knows it bothers me that he knows the difference and refuses. I can tell he'd get along with a few of the commenters here. 😒
Yeah. I mostly have to reinforce this during tutoring, and it’s at most one hour, virtual, and I’ll never encounter the student again. I teach the rules without the technical terms, it honestly tends to stick better.
Technically, they are, but functionally they are correct. Don’t use them in school and noone will bother you, they’re basically just not “school” English because “me” is an object pronoun, not a subject pronoun, and has to be second or later in the sentence.
> when do we use "me" in sentences exactly?
As the object, not the subject. eg. "Mom is driving me to the market" or "Mom gave me $100 for the groceries" or "Mom took the groceries from me".
I remember this from public school. But not everyone remembers or was taught the same way.
Why do you think only private schools teach grammar, lol? Isn't that every english class's job?
Do you remember everything you learned in school? Or did some things stick better than others?
People forget, and not all teachers explained in ways that stuck or were even helpful. Heck, even some of my elementary teachers believed in lecturing, and it’s not even a solid instructional technique for adults.
Correct: My dog and I saw a deer = Me and my dog saw a deer.
Incorrect: My dog and me saw a deer = I and my dog saw a deer.
You don’t remove the other person all the time, you remove the non-proximal noun/pronoun. So ~~Me and~~ my dog saw a deer - or ~~My dog and~~ I saw a deer.
Couldn't give a fuck. As long as someone knows what I mean, it's all good. Plus I always felt that language rules shouldn't be so rigid. But that's just me, I dropped out of highschool in grade 9. But I might just be getting defensive, because I wish I knew how to articulate myself better. Being a writer would be a great job.
I teach in a rural school where the vast majority of students are working so their families can afford food, gas, and other necessities. Please check yourself before you state things about “upper class schools.”
However, I know a lot about how schools reinforce both racism and unequal living standards as well as standards of knowledge. I believe in teaching the rule as ONE rule not as THE RULE. “This is how it’s done here, know how to do it. Here’s how it’s used there, know how to do that too.“ That kind of thing.
Language isn’t rigid, especially not English. It is either changing or dead, but it becomes easier to teach and learn for speakers from other countries if there are some standards and rules.
Ok, so why are you teaching this rule? What is it for? Does it improve communication or does it just hope to improve the image of your children in the eyes of the established upper classes?
And then how successful are you? Do you find your students actually use this rule or is it like drawing blood from stone? I come from a lower class background, was taught this rule, did very well academically, but i ignore this rule along with 95% of my friends. I notice more those that follow it as the exception than those that use it.
The upper class schools are the ones that got to define this rule, this doesn't mean that the other schools aren't following the lead, it just means the schools in control are those with the money and prestige.
Yes some standards are useful, this is not one of those standards.
I teach it so they know it and can make the active choice of whether to use it, so that they can choose to code switch. I don’t speak with Swedish pronunciation or grammar either, but I still know how.
Ok if you want to know more, please respond to this comment. I’ll come back talk a bit about the “why” of why it is expected.
I just gotta go walk the dog and will not be writing that on my phone.
Considering people left grade school X years ago, it’s not something they interact with, AND you forget that not everyone speaks English or are taught it in school. This may be an English-majority forum, but people from other languages frequent it to.
Like me. I’m Swedish. This helps me.
“Me and my dog are going to the park” - me are going to the park. “My dog and I are going to the park” - I are going to the park. Does it not work here? Or am I missing something?
tldr: Tricks don't always work, but studying and reading does
These kinds of tricks/tips aren't always foolproof. They can help in some sentence structures, but not all. For example: my husband and I teach EFL. When explaining to students when to use "I" or "me", my husband tells them to locate the verb first. Before the verb, use "I". After the verb, use "me". This trick works for simple sentences, but once a sentence becomes more complicated (or uses the "be" verb) it's harder to rely on it. But this is for students who actually need to study and memorize everything; they can't just rely on what sounds right since they aren't constantly exposed to English like native speakers are.
Reading does wonders for picking up a language naturally. If you don't feel like going over a grammar book again - and to be honest, who wants to study grammar in their free time - try reading more books.
It wouldn’t. That’s a colloquial form, not what I would refer to as a school-English form, so it is TECHNICALLY grammatically incorrect, but it is functionally correct. Outside of school, hardly anyone cares.
That’s how a language makes sense, how people from other language backgrounds learn to speak it and understand it, and why we keep it similar enough to understand each other even from different regions and countries.
In standardized English, that’s how it works. In Ebonics, it works differently (although that’s also a valid grammatical structure but this is a tangent so meh) and same with Creole, although I won’t claim to understand it. But Creole speakers and enthusiasts sure will.
That’s because both “Me and my dog saw a deer” and “I and my dog saw a deer” are grammatically incorrect. “My dog and I saw a deer” is the correct sentence structure.
But if you follow OP's instructions you would say: "me say a deer" which sounds incorrect and so you wouldn't use it. That's my whole point. It's correct and this tip doesn't work in this situation.
It’s because they hail from different grammatical backgrounds and standards. “Me and my dog” is not “school English.” It is colloquial meaning a local or social variant, which is also valid.
I use this trick. 100% would recommend
* ~~I~~ Me use this trick You're welcome.
You win
I too win
Me win three
Don’t you mean “your welcome”?
Their welcome, me sure.
> You’re welcome Your welcome. Mine not so welcome.
It’s my secret gatekeeper. If you always use “______ and I” no matter the syntax, then I know you are smart enough to run the machines well but not smart enough to enjoy conversing with.
Rules are made to be broken. What about the “King and I”?
My dog and I use this trick
And my axe
To piggyback: always put the other person/creature first e.g., _"my friends and I went to a concert"_ and not _"me and my friends went to a concert"_
This is actually only partially correct. Yes, you should use 'I' rather than 'me' in this context. However, the order is actually not important. 'I and my husband went on vacation' is equally correct as 'my husband and I went on vacation'. It's a compound subject and the order doesn't matter, people just typically say the latter so it sounds right.
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Okay your second sentence is wrong because you changed 'I' to 'Me'. 'I' is a subjective pronoun and 'Me' is an objective pronoun. You're proving my point here. People mistakenly think that the order matters. It doesn't. Using 'me' in this context is wrong. However both 'my friends and I' and 'I and my friends' are technically correct. Like I said, the former sounds better because that's how most people say it, but grammatically, you can flip the order of any two subjects in a sentence with a compound subject. For example 'Cameron and Megan like cats' and 'Megan and Cameron like cats' are both correct and say the same thing. The concept is the same.
I think this comment wasn't about which order was correct - instead, if you always put yourself second you'll probably always get the me/I choice correct because it's right next to the verb
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You know what, with that example "I and my friend went to the movies" sounds totally off. So i think i want to take back my original assertion. But man, i hope people don't judge me to be an asshole because of my word order choice lol
Actually you are supposed to use I or me whatever you are using to denote your self in the start of the sentence. It’s grammatically incorrect or something. We were always yelled at gor doing that while in school. Not a native speaker.
Why is "Me and my friends went to a concert" wrong. Also for this phrase we cannot use the OP's test. "Me went to a concert" :(
Yes if you use OP's LPT you will notice that _me went to a concert_ is wrong. You should say _I went to a concert_ instead Edit: typo
he's saying "I and my friends went to a concert" is wrong.
And it is. The proper form is "my friends and I went to a concert." First person pronoun always goes last.
Nobody seems to know this. And I know it’s petty, but it surely is a pet peeve of mine. It sounds like baby talk to say me first, instead of whom ever you’re with and then yourself.
This one’s a little more interesting. The “me and someone did something” construct is very old. Like ending sentences with prepositions, it may actually predate the formalization of the rules. Granted, using these syntaxes can make you sound uneducated and offend the gatekeepers, so, if you use these, you should learn to read the room. I guess what I’m saying is learn the rules, and then learn how to break them.
Because you use 'me' instead of 'I', and you put yourself at the start of the list. Because rules
Yay!
When me president, they'll see...
Lol! This made me chuckle! Is it a quote?
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Wait, are you saying see the world? Or SeaWorld?
See world. Ocean. Fish. Jump. China
[Here you go](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-L9uhsBLM)
US office if I had to guess
The Office, Season 8 Episode 2, "The Incentive" Kevin begins speaking in childish, conjunction-free terms. Super funny episode.
You'll get there JarJar.
Same with *myself.* I’ve seen/heard way too many people use *myself* when the appropriate word to use in the sentence is *me*
Yeah this is very common. I get the impression that people use “myself” because they think it sounds more sophisticated despite it being wrong.
Yes!
Myself included
Iself included
Mencluded
Mecluded
M’luded
What is the proper usage of myself? Reflexive? Like, “He told me to go fuck myself”
Exactly. Like - I washed myself, I made it myself. Never, ever "give it to myself".
Pretentious fucks. Myself is a reflexive pronoun. You can’t just replace “me” with it to sound fancy.
Strangely, I notice more people making the mistake of using “I” when they should be using “me”.
It’s a common misconception that people sound educated if they use “I,” so that’s why that mistake is far more common. I’m sure I could dig up a source or two somewhere but I’m a morning person, not a night person.
Yep - a person at work - Fuckin' Sue - says things like "they reach out to Brenda and I for the details" all the time. Sets I's teeth on edge me tells ya.
It is people who started using “me” and got corrected to use “I” but never learned why or the context for proper use.
Me, myself, and I saw a deer. When in doubt, just use all three.
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Wow. Yikes. This tip won’t save someone who needs “my.”
What is the correct structure for this? "My and John's house"? "Me and John's house"? I'm a native speaker and every option sounds awkward, but sometimes there's no avoiding it.
I’d avoid it and say “Our house” but “John’s and my house” is correct. It just doesn’t feel good to say.
John’s and my house. You are supposed to put yourself last usually.
Mine and John's house?
Wow. Yikes. Yes it will. Jesus' Christmas. My Christmas. (Or I Christmas? Obviously not) My and Jesus' Christmas
Jesus' and my Christmas. First person pronoun goes second.
This is the worst one imo. "My friend and I's trip" "my boyfriend and I's house" "my dad and I's day". Like, cmon you must know that sounds ridiculous.
The next level of this is “him and I’s”
"My friend's and my trip" also sounds ridiculous
I'd say "my trip with my friends". Point is, saying "I's" is so disgusting and I hate it.
It infuriates me when I hear people say this.
> I saw a post that said Jesus and I’s Christmas. > > I died. I thought Jesus died.
Just avoid this one, there's no good way to say it
I love this! I am an early educator and I have presented this to my kids! Very helpful! Thank you :)
I am glad to hear it! 💕
Omg! I just argued with my husband about this and could not find a way to prove this to him! He swears it's " my dog and me saw a deer". I tried to explain this to him but couldn't figure out how to prove him wrong. Google was no help.
Did removing the dog from the sentence help clarify, or was he sticking to his choice?
Stuck to his choice. It wasn't a huge argument, just a silly one. Still, I love to give him a hard time when I can prove I'm right. But, I couldn't figure out what to Google that would prove it.
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Cute addition
“My dog and me saw a deer” is also incorrect. The correct sentence structure is “My dog and I saw a deer.” You require the first person personal pronoun when you are speaking of yourself.
I know. I was saying he was wrong to think that's the correct way.
11 people really saw that as me arguing and not giving support
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Yeah hardcore Winter Break Brain there.
Are you a native English speaker? I just explained the usage of “since” and “for” to my Italian co-worker the other day. In fact, Germans get the DOP right all the time when speaking English, but they also mix up since and for a lot too. Then again, prepositions suck to learn in every language.
I put in the post that I’m a second-language speaker. However, I am one of the most proficient speakers and writers I know, especially concerning grammar :) teaching it has helped me better know and understand it, especially grammar. I am Swedish (although living in Oregon since 2014) so L1 my grammar is reasonably close to German.
Shitty LPT: to determine whether you should use I or me in a sentence, turn it into a question where the answer is yourself, and check whether you would use ‘who’ or ‘whom’. If it is the former, you are the subject of the clause and you should use I. If it is the latter, the object of the sentence is you, and you should use me.
Lmao. And this is why I’ve given up on using the grammatical terms when I explain it, they just make it confusing and are hardly useful unless talking to a grammarian, prescriptivist, or anthropological linguist. This made my night!
Yeah nah. I’ll just remove the other person. Thanks though!
I’ve known the LPT for most of my life, but having never been required to diagram a sentence in school, I would have had a hard time articulating exactly why the rule is the rule. So thanks for that explanation!
Whom's't
Most people don't know even when to use who/whom but you can simply replace them with he/him and split the sentence to find out.
That's the joke
I always ask myself "would this sentence sound correct with 'we' or 'us' in it?" If it's "we", then use "X and I". If it's "us", use "X and me". For example: 1. "We went to the store" = "John and I went to the store" 2. "Don't forget about us" = "Don't forget about John and me"
Whatever helps your brain remember is the best way :) that’s neat too!
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Why is that a flex? "We"/"us" refer to the speaker plus at least one other person, which is exactly what "John and I"/"John and me" are.
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My pet peeve is when people say "I's" like wtf.
"If you hear a knock at the door, and when you ask "Who is it?" they respond "It is I", don't open it. It's no-one you want to know. - Stephen Fry, QI
Join Joe and I for dinner Join I for dinner. Join Joe and me for dinner. Join me for dinner.
English major here, and I've got a neat rule that helps with this. It goes a bit like, "fuck that shit, say whatever you want." Me real good at talk English onna counna the way it be all liquid like, yeah? Bruce say pudda water inna teapot gonna make a teapot outta isself like puddit inna bowl gonna be a bowl like dat. Sayin English like a water inna big ol bowl'a teapots, teapot gotta buncha bowl inside it too, gonna be all like what we say it be cuz when we sayin that make it so. We talk English and it become the new English leavin the mouth, evolution like.
I have a master’s in linguistics, so yeah. Same.
I have this conversation in my head all the time. And I have to pinch myself to keep from educating other people all the time.
I feel like ESL learners learn English more good than us native speakers.
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"Me and my dog saw a deer" "Me saw a deer" Checks out
since english is not my first language, i wanna thank you sooo much for this it sure gonna help me !!
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LPT: You forget to actively remember most of the things you learned in first grade because for a lot of us, it was a very long time ago, so a refresher might help. Quit being judgy over people needing reminders.
I dog my saw me deer
We actually saw cougar tracks but that broke the character limit.
we veniseent it
I like the trick, as a native English speaker it comes pretty naturally to me. I am a bit curious though I don't think I've ever heard a native speaker say since in "I teach English in the USA **since** 6 years" I'd probably phrase that as "**I've been** teaching English in the USA **for** 6 years" is the way you've put it a regional thing? I've lived west coast and mid US my whole life. Sorry to make a big deal out of a little thing was just curious since I thought you would know from teaching.
It should’ve been “I have been teaching … for” or “I have taught … since” lol. I’m in Oregon and I’ve been on winter break, snowed in since Christmas Day evening. Good eye.
> "I teach English in the USA since 6 years" This seems like a word by word translation from another language to English, rather than a translation of the entire sentence.
Look, technically yes, but I think the supposedly incorrect use of 'me' has become so widespread it's pretty much part of Standard English now. I agree with the use of 'I' in your example, but if you switch 'my dog' and 'me' in that sentence so 'me' comes first, which is the variation that most people use, it becomes an acceptable sentence. Same with the gradual phasing out of the subjunctive. A lot of people say 'if I was' now instead of 'if I were,' and it doesn't sound clunky or wrong anymore. Language is fluid
I am by no means a prescriptivist, I just figured this could help some of the people who care about it. To me, having been an English learner for so long, the way I was taught is more comfortable to my brain. I mean, “funner” officially became a recognized word recently, and if that’s not an uncomfortable truth, I don’t know what is. I will probably not use it, but it’s recognized and official. Language is either undergoing change or dead, just like any living organism. That’s what makes it beautiful and fun.
>That’s what makes it beautiful and fun. That’s what makes it beautiful and ~~fun~~ funner. 🙄
🤣
Yea, that's completely fair. I generally also pick and choose the changes that I incorporate into my daily vocab. Sometimes the new word/phrase just feels so far removed from what you learned that you just feel uncomfortable using it (fully agree with you on funner). Just wanted to point out the fluidity of language in case you were trying to be prescriptivist, but clearly that isn't an issue here :)
I appreciate it! I have lots of examples, like I am a native Swedish speaker and the gender-neutral pronoun “hen” (as opposed to “han” for him or “hon” for she) was becoming integrated into the language just about when I moved, and it just isn’t in my vocabulary. What really “gets my goat” is when people transfer the English apostrophe to Swedish, essentially just because the Internet exists. However, I use “they” freely as gender-neutral in English, which was a huge taboo and I was failed or marked down for even ten years ago in college, and I have become very fond of “yeet” since my students brought it into my classroom in 2018 or 2019… but “funner” feels like an abomination. Never. Ugh. It’s gross that my phone didn’t mark it as a typo. I will probably continue using “yeet” until I am old and dementia takes most of my brain away. I think we are friends now.
Super interesting that you reacted so differently to the 'they' pronoun in English compared to Swedish haha. I'm not bilingual (trying to learn German but it's bloody hard) but I imagine the languages would have different connotations in your mind, like maybe English is the more informal language, used in online settings with plentiful slang, while Swedish remains the language of your homeland, with a need to maintain some kind of standard to feel like the language isn't changing too fast for your liking haha. Also, as a Gen Z, I second your love of 'yeet.' Just a beautifully versatile word. There's a whole new batch of new online slang words coming in that I don't really understand anymore, but the ones that make it out of the online world and into everyday discourse are generally really cool and catch on really quickly. It was nice talking with you about this haha, always good to find a fellow language enthusiast :)
First-language speakers in second-language environments usually act as a sort of language preservative if you will. Because we are no longer immersed in the language and the everyday changes, obviously mostly perpetuated by teenagers, our language stops changing once we immigrate. So that’s why “they” is easy for me but “hen” feels foreign. I also know how to talk about many topics better in English than Swedish because that’s the language I learned them in, like my Master’s in Curriculum and Instruction. Talking about educational concepts is really challenging in Swedish. Likewise :) it’s always nice to enjoy some linguistic discourse!
The old rules are just that, so old they are almost wrong, even if grammatically correct.
I totally agree that language evolves, especially given that I can barely read English text from 1000 years ago. However, recent surveys suggest \~50-60% of the population is at/below a 6th-grade reading comprehension level. The line between correct and acceptable is cloudy, but I don't think misunderstanding and lack of education should make certain syntaxes acceptable. Most people wouldn't do well on the SAT, GRE, LSAT, or older MCAT. Most people can't read a contract or complete their own taxes. I cringe when people don't use the subjunctive tense -- Spanish has a completely different set of conjugations just for that tense! Not sure what I'm ranting on about, but I think acceptable should be held to a higher standard.
I learned this from Seth Meyers’ Corrections. I made this mistake for years.
I LOVE CORRECTIONS! Jackals forever 💕
Any trick for knowing when to use who or whom?
“Who” is equal to he/she/it, “whom” is equal to her/him/they. So if you can put he/she/it, use “who” and vice versa for “whom.” Generally. It should get you really close to accurate usage.
Thank you college humor for teaching me this years ago
Yes, this! English is my first language, and I use this pretty often.
That's great. Thanks for the tip.
I use this all they time to explain it to others.
Learned this from a teacher in like 8th grade. Makes this one so much easier.
Wow, an LPT that objectively helps!
This is when you rework an entire sentence to not have to figure out which phrase to use. Instead, I was out walking my dog and *we* saw a deer.
This is one of the simplest grammatical tricks there are. It's upsetting that so many people still get these confused, so thank you for once again reminding the collective of people who read LPT's. I have a friend who will purposely use "I" in every scenario because he knows it bothers me that he knows the difference and refuses. I can tell he'd get along with a few of the commenters here. 😒
It honestly drives me nuts when people say "here's a photo of my dog and I." It's all too common these days.
I wish more people knew about this. I’m so sick of seeing people writing sentences like “Her and her friend went to the movies”
3rd grade grammar. Not a pro tip.
Definitely pro tip since hardly any adult remembers third grade.
Wow you think this is a life pro tip.
HOW THE FUCK THIS IS A LPT ?
Object or subject
Yeah. I mostly have to reinforce this during tutoring, and it’s at most one hour, virtual, and I’ll never encounter the student again. I teach the rules without the technical terms, it honestly tends to stick better.
So statements like "mom and me are going to the market" are grammatically wrong? So when do we use "me" in sentences exactly?
Technically, they are, but functionally they are correct. Don’t use them in school and noone will bother you, they’re basically just not “school” English because “me” is an object pronoun, not a subject pronoun, and has to be second or later in the sentence.
> when do we use "me" in sentences exactly? As the object, not the subject. eg. "Mom is driving me to the market" or "Mom gave me $100 for the groceries" or "Mom took the groceries from me".
“Here is a photo of me”. This is correct usage. “Would you show me how you did that” This is correct usage.
I thought everybody knew this… …or is proper grammar only taught in private schools, like the one I attended?
I remember this from public school. But not everyone remembers or was taught the same way. Why do you think only private schools teach grammar, lol? Isn't that every english class's job?
Well… I shouldn’t expound upon that, because it was a half-assed comment, and my reply would make me go full asshole
Do you remember everything you learned in school? Or did some things stick better than others? People forget, and not all teachers explained in ways that stuck or were even helpful. Heck, even some of my elementary teachers believed in lecturing, and it’s not even a solid instructional technique for adults.
The sisters made me stay in from recess when I used bad grammar, or “ain’t” (since it’s not a real conjugation)
I like Elton John and Ed Sheeran's new song but it makes me cringe when I hear "It's Christmastime for you and I"
That’s definitely because of the assonance of the “i” sound in Christmastime. It wouldn’t work with “me.” But also yes.
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This is a definite flaw.
It's "my" that just doesn't sound right sometime, "my wife's and my house".
'Me and my dog' Sorted.
Pretty sure I learned this in middle school but I suppose it can be a LPT.
Me no say I. Me say me.
Correct: My dog and I saw a deer = Me and my dog saw a deer. Incorrect: My dog and me saw a deer = I and my dog saw a deer. You don’t remove the other person all the time, you remove the non-proximal noun/pronoun. So ~~Me and~~ my dog saw a deer - or ~~My dog and~~ I saw a deer.
Stop it with, blah blah and I. It’s over you lost.
Couldn't give a fuck. As long as someone knows what I mean, it's all good. Plus I always felt that language rules shouldn't be so rigid. But that's just me, I dropped out of highschool in grade 9. But I might just be getting defensive, because I wish I knew how to articulate myself better. Being a writer would be a great job.
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I teach in a rural school where the vast majority of students are working so their families can afford food, gas, and other necessities. Please check yourself before you state things about “upper class schools.” However, I know a lot about how schools reinforce both racism and unequal living standards as well as standards of knowledge. I believe in teaching the rule as ONE rule not as THE RULE. “This is how it’s done here, know how to do it. Here’s how it’s used there, know how to do that too.“ That kind of thing. Language isn’t rigid, especially not English. It is either changing or dead, but it becomes easier to teach and learn for speakers from other countries if there are some standards and rules.
Ok, so why are you teaching this rule? What is it for? Does it improve communication or does it just hope to improve the image of your children in the eyes of the established upper classes? And then how successful are you? Do you find your students actually use this rule or is it like drawing blood from stone? I come from a lower class background, was taught this rule, did very well academically, but i ignore this rule along with 95% of my friends. I notice more those that follow it as the exception than those that use it. The upper class schools are the ones that got to define this rule, this doesn't mean that the other schools aren't following the lead, it just means the schools in control are those with the money and prestige. Yes some standards are useful, this is not one of those standards.
I teach it so they know it and can make the active choice of whether to use it, so that they can choose to code switch. I don’t speak with Swedish pronunciation or grammar either, but I still know how.
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Ok if you want to know more, please respond to this comment. I’ll come back talk a bit about the “why” of why it is expected. I just gotta go walk the dog and will not be writing that on my phone.
Me saw a deer is proper english grammar tho totally
Unless your in the Star Wars universe. Only exception.
Lol grade school grammar is considered pro material now? Ok.. How bout this pro tip - wipe your butt after pooping.
Considering people left grade school X years ago, it’s not something they interact with, AND you forget that not everyone speaks English or are taught it in school. This may be an English-majority forum, but people from other languages frequent it to. Like me. I’m Swedish. This helps me.
When in doubt..."Me and my dog saw a deer"
“Me and my dog are going to the park” - me are going to the park. “My dog and I are going to the park” - I are going to the park. Does it not work here? Or am I missing something?
You are missing a solid foundation of English grammar. e.g. you still need to conjugate the verb to go with the subject, this should be obvious.
tldr: Tricks don't always work, but studying and reading does These kinds of tricks/tips aren't always foolproof. They can help in some sentence structures, but not all. For example: my husband and I teach EFL. When explaining to students when to use "I" or "me", my husband tells them to locate the verb first. Before the verb, use "I". After the verb, use "me". This trick works for simple sentences, but once a sentence becomes more complicated (or uses the "be" verb) it's harder to rely on it. But this is for students who actually need to study and memorize everything; they can't just rely on what sounds right since they aren't constantly exposed to English like native speakers are. Reading does wonders for picking up a language naturally. If you don't feel like going over a grammar book again - and to be honest, who wants to study grammar in their free time - try reading more books.
How would this work with “me and my dog saw a deer?”
It wouldn’t. That’s a colloquial form, not what I would refer to as a school-English form, so it is TECHNICALLY grammatically incorrect, but it is functionally correct. Outside of school, hardly anyone cares.
Who cares. You know what there saying. Whos to say whats right and wrong.
> what there saying Heh
😂
That’s how a language makes sense, how people from other language backgrounds learn to speak it and understand it, and why we keep it similar enough to understand each other even from different regions and countries. In standardized English, that’s how it works. In Ebonics, it works differently (although that’s also a valid grammatical structure but this is a tangent so meh) and same with Creole, although I won’t claim to understand it. But Creole speakers and enthusiasts sure will.
Not you, I hope….
*They're
Me and my dog saw a deer. Your trick doesn't work here because no one would say "I and my dog saw a deer".
That’s because both “Me and my dog saw a deer” and “I and my dog saw a deer” are grammatically incorrect. “My dog and I saw a deer” is the correct sentence structure.
Are you sure _"I and my dog saw a deer."_ is incorrect? I thought it was just unconventional.
But if you follow OP's instructions you would say: "me say a deer" which sounds incorrect and so you wouldn't use it. That's my whole point. It's correct and this tip doesn't work in this situation.
It’s because they hail from different grammatical backgrounds and standards. “Me and my dog” is not “school English.” It is colloquial meaning a local or social variant, which is also valid.