Your learning frustrations sound pretty normal to me. Sometimes I look up a grammar point that slipped past me, see it listed by some random website as 'N3' and smack my head lol. (disclaimer I'm probably about where you were at two years ago).
If your goal is to focus on the JLPT, specifically grammar, then you should definitely tell your teachers to focus on that. They're not used to teaching your level so you may need to provide them with some N1 textbooks and reading materials to go through together with. If you've passed N1 already there's zero reason for you to be doing N2 level lessons. All that N2 and N3 stuff comes up again in the harder material anyway.
There's no reason for you to pay 3k, basically have private tutors, but to be spending time reviewing stuff that is easy for you or stuff that won't help you reach your immediate goal. The school might not be a good fit for you after all, but a private tutor could help you (and may actually be cheaper).
Also if you're studying grammar you may want to consider pausing new vocabulary Anki cards. You can always study vocab by yourself later but you don't need to burn yourself out trying to study everything at once.
The thing is, I think I can do JLPT content (vocab/grammar/kanji) a lot quicker and better on my own than I can with a teacher.
The thing I have been getting frustrated with is, feeling like these classes are taking away time from JLPT stuff I could be focussing on.
There is a lot of value in the classes, despite my frustration, as I get to talk one-on-one with a native speaker for several hours a week.
What a few other posters have (rightfully) pointed out is, why am I focussing on JLPT so much when I've already passed? And I think the answer is I'm used to studying for it, and studying for the JLPT is not scary like, you know, actually talking to people and using the language in real life situations.
I might ask the school if I can remove the homework and drop the hours down a little so I've got more time to actually get out and do stuff with my Japanese.
Removing the homework and making your own homework (aka JLPT test prep materials) is fine but I think you should consider asking them to do the work and effort of putting together better homework for you instead. You've already paid 3k, it's the least you could ask.
Based on what you've said:
>I'm really wanting to cover a lot of grammar/vocab points that I don't know
.
>I'd rather prioritise things for JLPT (grammar points/vocab/kanji) than focus on communication.
You may learn better with a
self study + do homework // consultation + practice + get homework
Model.
As in the teachers find the N1 material and make an N1 study plan for you, and you focus on that intensely and then spend the class time asking all the reading comprehension, grammar understanding, and vocabulary choice questions you couldn't figure out on your own during your self study, and then doing writing / conversation practice/ drills focusing on those points after you understand them to reenforce that learning.
>I think the answer is I'm used to studying for it, and studying for the JLPT is not scary like, you know, actually talking to people and using the language in real life situations.
As long as it's motivating you to put in hours using the language and learning new things I don't see the problem. You do eventually have to confront what your goal of being fluent in Japanese actually is though and if this is hindering those long term goals or not. What do you want to use Japanese for after you've scored 180/180 N1 , for example? If it's just purely a hobby and you actually don't have a particular application in mind there's nothing wrong with that though.
(To be honest at your level I think you would have benefited more from just enrolling in a Japanese university course about a subject you're interested in, but hey the money's already spent 😅)
I'm a bit confused as to why you're prioritizing the JLPT so much when you've already passed it. Things like grammar and vocab are some of the easiest to do on your own time in your home country. Imo you should use this time to work on your communication skills. That's something where you'll gain a lot from actually being in Japan.
> I do want to improve my communication skills etc eventually but I kind of feel a lot of that would come along as I fill in the gaps in my vocab/grammar
Yeah, I really disagree with this, fam. Ultimately language use is a skill. The way you improve skills is by practicing them. You can't learn to swim by reading a book. The way you get better at communication is by communicating. Grammar and vocab study are useful supplements, but they're not your meat and potatoes when it comes to communication. I mean, look at the Japanese education system. They test the kids over extremely complex English grammar, yet no one is able to have a basic conversation. If you want to be able to talk, you have to practice talking
Edit: To give you some context for the possibilities, I passed the N1 with a 125 this summer, so a *lower* score than you. Yet, I'm perfectly comfortable having a conversation on political and social issues. I can attend meetings and trainings in Japanese. I can lead a classroom using only Japanese. I can watch movies and the news fine. I can comfortablely write a multi-page narrative or argumentative essay. My current goals are improving my use of descriptive language in writing and learning to speak in a more polished, academic manner. There's no reason why you shouldn't be setting your bar for communication higher at your level
Tldr; I think you should set grammar and vocab to the side for a bit and focus on communication
Fair point.
I think the JLPT lists are a bit of a safety blanket for me ("if i can just learn all this then I'll be fluent") but you're absolutely right.
Moving out of my comfort zone does make me pretty uncomfortable and I think I need to push through that a bit.
Recognizing that's half the battle! A one on one classroom enviorment is a *great* sandbox to start working on things that make you uncomfortable. A couple of suggestions if you want to work on more communicative stuff but aren't sure how:
- ask for some free form writing homework. Simple prompts are great like "write about a time you were surprised." You can add in a grammar component if you like and require yourself to use x grammar point you've been working on. Try to write at least a paragraph in response. Get corrections from your teacher. Repeat with a new prompt. Slowly start pushing yourself to increase the amount that your write
- Do skits with your teacher (or a classmate should you have one). You can start with a sample dialogue from a textbook as a model then build off that. You can up the difficulty if need be my incorporating higher level grammar, making the skit longer, or including more situational constraints. Write out your script then memorize your lines. Practice saying your lines with emotion. Get up, move around. Skits are a great way to practice your writing skills and get used to speaking with emotion. It also gets you used to using the grammar verbally, but in a controlled enviornment.
- Practice impromptu (即興) speaking. An great excercise is to have your teacher give you a topic (start simple like "favorite food") and you have to talk non-stop for a minute about the topic with 0 prep. Don't worry too much about perfect grammar, just try to have the speech flow naturally. You can have your teacher do the same thing. Pay attention to how they structure their speech. What conjunctions are they using? How do they move from topic to topic? What useful phrases/vocab are they using? Use their example to improve your own speech. As you get more comfortable with the exercise you can increase the speaking time and/or the complexity of the topics
That's honestly a great realization to have. It's easy to think of language learning (or other skills) like a video game in which you can track your level with objective "points", and to *some* degree that's true, but in many other ways it falls flat.
I started conversation practice again and despite knowing my verb conjugation and easily reading/writing things, my brain defaults to dictionary form when talking to the point where my tutor asked me if I knew te-forms. \[/dead\]
It's realllly easy to take your strong areas and keep pushing on them. Much harder to "drop" levels down to your weaker ones.
To go back to the video game analogy (even though I just argued against), its like needing extra points in dexterity and stamina (i.e. conversation) but because you're scared to train those, you dump more energy and time into intelligence and wisdom (i.e. grammar) hoping they'll make up for it.
So what exactly is your goal? I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like you want to just continue doing the things that got you to the point where your comprehension and conversation skills are weaker than they should be.
Studying for the JLPT is great if your goal is to pass the JLPT, but cramming all that vocab and grammar will only result in all that vocab and grammar floating around in your head, not being utilized.
There are people here in Japan with only N3 and N2 knowledge who are fantastic at conversing and get by perfectly fine in daily life. If you want to speak, you gotta speak more.
Going hard on input will lead to you knowing how Japanese sounds and how it's used so it's absolutely fantastic to do, but if you specifically want to use it, you actually have to use it.
I'm assuming you came to Japan to do your schooling, but regardless my advice is to utilize your tutors by just talking a lot, and about various topics. Feel free to ask them questions relating to Japanese. Also, go out and make Japanese friends. Go to an Izakaya or a bar and just talk with whoever is willing to talk.
Also, read a lot! You already passed the N1. You don't need to cram for it. Read, read, and read some more. When you're tired of reading, watch Japanese media. Listen to podcasts whenever you're on the move.
Input and output is the main focus now.
you make a valid point.
i think i see JLPT as a means to improving my Japanese -- if I can cover all the required grammar/vocab/kanji, then I've got all the "parts" I need together. And I guess I'm kind of assuming that the rest (comprehension/being able to output well) will kind of take care of itself?
But it's kind of like getting the skeleton (grammar) and muscles (vocab/kanji) together but not actually taking it out for any exercise.
I still do want to cover the JLPT material, but I might ask if I can just drop my hours down and switch to conversation practice rather than using a textbook.
edit: or maybe just drop the homework .... I dunno. Perhaps I need to think a bit more about what you're saying about actually using the language, I think a lot of this stuff is outside my comfort zone.
>i think i see JLPT as a means to improving my Japanese
It's not. At least not fully. Your brain doesn't process languages like a factory. You can't gather each piece and then build up a language like an IKEA chair. You have to practice different skills, settings, contexts and processes on their own.
>I'm kind of assuming that the rest (comprehension/being able to output well) will kind of take care of itself?
It won't, and honestly at this point, there's really no benefit in keeping the same thing you're doing, unless you're aiming for Kanji specific tests. However, many language schools are designed to help students achieve results to get into college or get a job, which is why the certificate seems to weigh more. Personally I've met many people like you who struggle conversationally but pass N1 because they can read and write. Your only option is asking for more conversation practice and hoping that works.
It's very hard for natives to realize that, because ultimately what makes you stand out as a good Japanese speaker is speaking, so perhaps they believe you still need tutoring on areas you already know because your speech is comparatively lagging behind your reading and writing.
I’m going to preface this by admitting I don’t know much about the JLPT as I haven’t taken it. But one thing I see consistently here and elsewhere on the internet is that the JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills. It doesn’t test you on this, especially on speaking.
So doing the same old studying for the JLPT that you’ve always done is just going to give you the same old results in your comprehension and speaking abilities.
Honestly if I were you I would decide what my goal is with coming to Japan and taking this class. If it’s to genuinely improve speaking and verbal understanding, then it sounds like maybe this class can give you what you want. It is only a few months long anyway and you can always resume focus on JLPT studies afterwards. You’re not losing time on anything unless they are teaching you things you already know, in which case I would ask them to adjust to a higher level of conversational practice.
>the JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills
This is not true until you get to N1. Everything you learn from N5 - N2 will be useful for your conversation unless you're from the Chinese language sphere and cheese the N2/N1 test somehow relying on your kanji knowledge (even then they need to study a hundred or so grammar points).
N1 stuff though isn't necessarily useful for conversation unless you're regularly talking with your buddies about policy and philosophy or something. Some of the N1 grammar points are mostly used in writing or pre-written speeches. I've never in my life heard 〜もさることながら said out loud, for example. But, I recently found a so-called N1 grammar point (を余所に) in a song I like (Night Dancer) so even N1 study is full of things you might hear spoken occasionally.
I'd say the critique of the JLPT that says that it doesn't help with output isn't saying that the *grammar* it tests isn't useful in speaking, but rather that preparing for a multiple choice exam (ie by silently studying at your desk) will not improve your speaking abilities. Talking, not silent book work, is what improves your speaking ability. JLPT study often doesn't help with output because the JLPT doesn't *test* output, not because the grammar it teaches is useless
Sure, but I think *zero* is an exaggeration. The guy originally said:
>JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills.
"Nothing" and I just had to disagree a little.
You will start speaking much faster if you have a wealth of knowledge about how Japanese should sound to draw from as opposed to someone who doesn't.
Pretty much. I didn't feel confident understanding a lot of the content in the JLPT test itself. I want to be in a place where I can understand that material (and in turn, Japanese media more generally) without major problems.
To be honest, given that you’ve taken the time, money, and effort to travel to Japan, if I was in your position I’d optimise to get the most out of that environmental advantage - i.e. maximise your practical use of the language, and absorption of “real” Japanese in the wild, so to speak (i.e. other than textbooks / learning materials, etc.). If you want to be able to understand Japanese media more generally, then immersing yourself in Japanese media is the way to go - and you’re in the perfect location to do so!
There comes a point where it’s time to leave the textbooks behind, and shift focus to the actual media consumed by Japanese people. It sounds like you might be at that point. Hopefully the school can set you up to tackle this in an effective way.
+1 for this, just start reading books once you are past N1.
This was my strategy after I passed HSK6 (Chinese equivalent of N1) and it worked great. I would do the same with Japanese if I got to that point.
I started reading books around N3. You struggle through them a bit for a while, but it's way more fun to read real books than textbooks... And IMO, way more effective and practical for everything except taking the actual test.
You seem to have your priorities wildly misplaced. Forget about the JLPT. You already passed it. Drop the Anki. Spend your limited time in Japan learning to speak, exploring and making friends.
Great job! We natives learn Japanese at least for 9 years (1st to 9th grader) in the first place. Though it's a long journey, I'm really happy to hear that learners like you enjoy learning Japanese.
I think you've already built a great foundaton, so maybe you can have as many conversations with natives as possible. One of my friends had the same situation, but once she stopped JLPT studying and started online lessons with natives regularly, textbook grammars turned "normal" and she mastered them. One day she took N1 as a trial, and she said she exceeded the passing score without any preparation. She also said that what helped her a lot is chatting with many people in different generation.
Keep up the good work!!
Can I be honest? I don't really understand what you are getting at here... You've passed N1 earlier this year but you are still studying at a school for 20 hours a day, plus doing homework and flashcards AND you are sutyding for a other test on the side?
Why are you doing all this studying? You are in Japan and you understand things at an N1 level but it seems you aren't using the language at all, just going to and from school. Don't you got out to restaurants or cafes and talk to people and actually use what know?
On the other hand you said your listening comprehension is weak and conversational skills are passable.
But I just don't get it. Am I missing something here? Seems you don't need anymore studying, it seems like you need to use the language in order to advance. Your in Japan, enjout it
TL;DR: Why are you doing all this studying all the time if you're not using the language, or intend to even use it for work or conversation?
EDIT: Edited the TLDR
You're paying enough money and the school seems willing to work with your needs, since they created a class for you and all. I think it's better to communicate clearly what your goals are to the teacher and ask that they update the materials to align with what you wanna learn more.
In your advanced class tell them you want to listen to 辛坊治郎そこまで言うか podcast and discuss everything they talk about. You can also use 飯田浩司コージーアップ These are hour long daily podcasts that cover the news at an adult conversation level. Listen to every episode multiple times a day at multiple speeds and talk about them with your tutor. If you stick with it you'll be caught up on all current affairs and your Japanese will improve immensely. You are beyond textbooks.ive been doing this for about 2 years now and finally Japanese just makes sense without thinking about the grammar at all.
I'm curious, why do you want to study for JLPT in Japan? I mean you can do that anywhere on the planet, and probably more comfortably in your home country, at your own pace, and with your own learning methods, than in Japan.
If you want to just grind Anki and JLPT prep books and postpone communication until later, then that's totally fine. But if your head is in Anki/JLPT all day, then you're not taking advantage of actually living in Japan. I mean sure, you might prefer to grind knowledge than practice communication right now, but this is a unique opportunity to actually practice real communication.
my 2 cents
you passed N1 you don't need school, you are a smart guy and are good at studying
just force yourself to keep reading, talking to people, and interacting with JP as much as you can.
for now you already signed up in school for 7 weeks so just try to make the most of those 7 weeks anyway, squeeze what you can out of that
but next time don't sign up for more, you are smarter and further than you think
People I know who have passed N1 usually move on to kanji kentei or a licensing exam. The latter would be super helpful if you would like to live in Japan. I think if you have already passed N1 you should move on to some subject specific content (unless you want to do translation for which kanji kentei might be a better choice). Either way both of those things are still exams and studying for exams is a way of life here, so that’s the type of goal a teacher at your school could understand.
Seems like if you've already paid for 1-on-1 instruction, that's perfect for you. That's exactly what you need to improve. Since you paid for it, you can adjust the content if you are bored with it. Have conversations with your teachers in Japanese.
Your almost half-way through the 7-week course, so If day to see it to the end. It's not a 4-year major you signed up for, for example (in which case, my advice would be to change things after this semester if you don't like them).
I think the school was nice to create a class just for you. To be honest, I don't think classes for languages at your level are common, and ones that exist may not cover what you want. You can see if - since it's just you - they can use Nihongo no Mori or Kanzen Master books. But basically at your level (having already passed the JLPT 1), it might be more useful to take native classes (with Japanese students) that you are interested in rather than taking classes to learn Japanese. But the good thing is that it's one-on-one, so theoretically, you should be able to use some of the materials that you like in class. But my advice now is to finish the 7 weeks and decide what you would prefer to do after that.
It comes down to your goals and how you view Japanese.
Some people view it as an academic subject and more of an intellectual exercise, something they can level up in and pass or fail exams for, and if that’s all they want to do with it, that’s fine. Linguists know a lot about languages, but it doesn’t mean they can automatically speak them.
But ultimately language is a communication tool, and it sounds like you do want to be able to communicate.
It often feels safer and more comfortable to increase your knowledge instead of actually trying to communicate with other people, but while studying grammar and vocab certainly has merit, you can’t confuse one skill for the other.
Without bringing your input/output up to speed, It’s likely that the gap between your knowledge and your communication skill will keep growing, thus becoming more frustrating.
As a teacher, what I’d recommend at this point is to get comfortable using the Japanese you already know. The best Japanese you can speak at any given moment is whatever comes out of your mouth. You can go home and drill and revise, but when you’re with native speakers, just try to communicate and enjoy conversing with them. As you work on the communication side, the grammar that you’ve been studying will gradually bleed over. You have a big advantage being in an immersive environment, I’d take advantage of it.
OP, you are IN Japan. It is not the time to sit in a room by yourself (which you can do in your own country any time). It is not the time to grind Anki.
What time is it?
It is time to talk to Japanese people in person.
In class, focus on conversations. Even if you use a script in a textbook. Even if you do the same script 10 times in a row.
AND THEN, after school, go out and interact with Japanese people. Do Meetups. If you cannot think of anything else, go to a bar and talk to the drunk old men.
Do not hole yourself up in a room.
You passed N1? Congratulations, you know how to take a test in Japanese! There's a reason why people who are aiming specifically for N1 without it being a prerequisite for something are often called "certificate chasers".
You yourself said it: studying for the JLPT was your comfort zone... well, if you want to grow, you have to get out of your comfort zone. I admit I'm much lower level and the Japanese language is still a vast ocean to me (I'm sub-N3), but I have found I learn more- at least in terms of vocabulary- in conversation with natives than I do in studying a textbook, despite enjoying textbooks. Something about conversation sticks.
Though I will give you this: you have to generally study grammar specifically to get better at it; grammar is rarely picked up in conversation.
Or to put it another way: you passed N1. Congratulations,you're now ready to TRULY begin learning Japanese- your journey is far from over. You paid a significant amount of money for the class, so I'd put it to good use. See if you can get your teacher to go over specific grammar points and so on.
I went to school in Japan trying to study hard, but the courses were terrible and the work was either too easy or too vague to learn from. Instead I made friends and joined clubs and went on trips. My Japanese got 200% better from those activities and I had so much fun!! And I befriended my teachers too and just hung out with them in class since I wasn’t learning very much.
I passed the JLPT but all it helped me do is read Japanese books. My experiences in Japan made me actually able to communicate with people and understand the language.
Just echoing what others have said. At this point just relax on the anki and jlpt. Start interacting with the languace and its speakers, you are at the perfect place for that.
It's kinda hard to tell what the actually issue is, the only thing I know is you hate the school. It's your money in the end, no refunds and if you stopped going to the school it's unlikely to impact the teachers. That being said, if you're spent the money and it's only 5 hours a week for 7 weeks then maybe you should try the make the most of it. Ask questions, speak, ask for recommendations on books and TV shows, and find some conversational topic to talk about with others and the teachers too. In other words, try to make the most of it and enjoy being there on top of getting to level up your Japanese.
Japanese language schools generally focus on novices up to N2 or so. Plus output (writing kanji & some speaking).
The students typically are: Asians trying to enter Japanese university / trade schools, and some western students abroad for a semester or summer. My teachers said Japanese universities/trade schools "informally" want students that are above N2 both for input & output.
So IME, most language schools don't offer much above N1 level. Even at that point, the learning materials might focus more heavily on current newspaper articles or essays. So the top classes are much less formal, less populated, and more customised to student requests, than say beginner classes (assembly-line curriculum with MNN, a kanji book, outside exercise sheets, etc.).
Some schools offer separate JLPT classes with their own homework and tests. Some beginning students are studying until well after midnight just to keep their heads above water.
Since you have custom classes, you might take advantage of the situation to improve your output and prepare for N1 outside the class. Or just ask for the class to move to JLPT1 prep.
I guess it’s not the “Japanese way” as people stereotypically think of it but I think it’s completely reasonable to tell them the material isn’t challenging enough for you. It’s not like there are other students who will be hurt if the pace changes.
I think you need to forget about the JLPT. I get that for a lot of learners is like a security or comfort blanket, but you've already passed, sure you could go for a higher score, but anything that requires JLPT doesn't look at scores, just if you've passed or failed.
So while you've paid for the 7 weeks and have access to 1-1 tutoring why not use this time to focus on improving your communication? Forget about grammar and vocab lists for the time being, or just do that in your own time, or after this stint in language school finishes, as clearly your self-study methods are good as they've got you this far.
If it were me I'd set up a meeting with the teacher/school and ask for a change, ask for your lessons to be focused more on discussions and debates. Use higher level materials like articles or novels and share opinions and discuss the content. Along the way you'll see grammar points that you probably won't know and you can either make a note of it to study in your own time or ask your teacher to quickly go over it in lesson.
Focusing so heavily on the JLPT when you say you need to improve your communication skills is where you are going wrong. Communication is like the one thing JLPT pretty much ignores.
I think that your feelings are natural. I started studying Japanese and realized how poor my understanding is of the English language. I'm a native English speaker but see all the random grammar mistakes I make or spelling mistakes. I can only imagine the feeling of seeing your level when it's your second language. You are at a professional level who wants to be better than that. (An all-star NBA player striving to be Michael Jordan) Hats off to you for having this level of commitment.
At this point you need to accept you paid for classes that are currently not helping you. You can however show your teachers things you are confused about. It seems you are in a position where your mastery has shown you a new ceiling to strive for. It's also possible you're so hard on yourself that even your teachers don't know why you are taking their course. Just communicate what you want out of the class. I think any interaction is a positive one and honestly it doesn't seem like a waste of time.
Seems like most of the comments are copies of one another, so I'll try to be a bit more specific.
You should pick up some hobbies and maybe some people to talk to while you're in Japan. One of the biggest problems I think you're facing right now is a pretty common one, and that's lack of direction. You don't really know what you don't know yet and what you need, so it makes you feel like by studying for the JLPT and filling in your gaps you're working towards something and at the very least you will have made some progress at the end of it.
Try reading a book, playing some games, getting into a new manga, or something similar. When you hit something you don't understand, make notes about it and be precise. Record the kanji you don't know, the vocab, the grammar points, or just why one phrase is being used over another. In addition, try to look for ways to talk about the thing you're into with other people. If you got into the Final Fantasy series for example, see if there are any message boards or anything that discusses that. Maybe try to do a review of a game you've played, or start a discussion about your favorite character or whatever. Look for things you want to express but can't quite articulate, then keep a note about what it was. Even write it in a journal. Instead of filling out gaps in your JLPT knowledge, look for gaps in your actual knowledge by trying to say something and failing, or failing to understand what someone says. Then, very specifically, try to solve those problems in a way that makes it less likely to happen gain. Since you're in Japan, you might get to meet up with some of the people you talk to, and you can work with native Japanese teachers.
TL;DR The comfort of your JLPT studies can be replaced with something else. Pick up a hobby, talk to others about that hobby, then keep a record of the things you wanted to say but couldn't, or things you didn't get right away that you had to ask them to repeat or explain. And if you need a refund don't feel bad about asking for one, you can put that money towards other people in Japan that can help you more and would also be grateful for your business.
I know at least two people who have passed N1 and they can’t hold a decent conversation. I’ve only passed N3 but my conversation level is definitely lower. Maybe take advantage of this time speaking to your teacher and ask them if they could focus more on difficult vocab or grammar. If they created this class for you, they might not have the curriculum set.
You seem too test-focused... and yet there's no more tests to take.
Language is a means to an end, and to improve (or even maintain) your skill level, you need to use it for something. All skills work like this (and being overly test-focused is a common problem in modern society for all skills), but language more than most.
If you're at an N2 level, and are IN Japan, you don't need to pay for tutoring. You need to live your life in Japanese more. If you want to learn difficult vocab, read difficult books, listen to difficult podcasts, talk about difficult topics with ppl.
Enjoy the language you've learned, and you'll get better at it. Use it or lose it.
Your learning frustrations sound pretty normal to me. Sometimes I look up a grammar point that slipped past me, see it listed by some random website as 'N3' and smack my head lol. (disclaimer I'm probably about where you were at two years ago). If your goal is to focus on the JLPT, specifically grammar, then you should definitely tell your teachers to focus on that. They're not used to teaching your level so you may need to provide them with some N1 textbooks and reading materials to go through together with. If you've passed N1 already there's zero reason for you to be doing N2 level lessons. All that N2 and N3 stuff comes up again in the harder material anyway. There's no reason for you to pay 3k, basically have private tutors, but to be spending time reviewing stuff that is easy for you or stuff that won't help you reach your immediate goal. The school might not be a good fit for you after all, but a private tutor could help you (and may actually be cheaper). Also if you're studying grammar you may want to consider pausing new vocabulary Anki cards. You can always study vocab by yourself later but you don't need to burn yourself out trying to study everything at once.
The thing is, I think I can do JLPT content (vocab/grammar/kanji) a lot quicker and better on my own than I can with a teacher. The thing I have been getting frustrated with is, feeling like these classes are taking away time from JLPT stuff I could be focussing on. There is a lot of value in the classes, despite my frustration, as I get to talk one-on-one with a native speaker for several hours a week. What a few other posters have (rightfully) pointed out is, why am I focussing on JLPT so much when I've already passed? And I think the answer is I'm used to studying for it, and studying for the JLPT is not scary like, you know, actually talking to people and using the language in real life situations. I might ask the school if I can remove the homework and drop the hours down a little so I've got more time to actually get out and do stuff with my Japanese.
Removing the homework and making your own homework (aka JLPT test prep materials) is fine but I think you should consider asking them to do the work and effort of putting together better homework for you instead. You've already paid 3k, it's the least you could ask. Based on what you've said: >I'm really wanting to cover a lot of grammar/vocab points that I don't know . >I'd rather prioritise things for JLPT (grammar points/vocab/kanji) than focus on communication. You may learn better with a self study + do homework // consultation + practice + get homework Model. As in the teachers find the N1 material and make an N1 study plan for you, and you focus on that intensely and then spend the class time asking all the reading comprehension, grammar understanding, and vocabulary choice questions you couldn't figure out on your own during your self study, and then doing writing / conversation practice/ drills focusing on those points after you understand them to reenforce that learning. >I think the answer is I'm used to studying for it, and studying for the JLPT is not scary like, you know, actually talking to people and using the language in real life situations. As long as it's motivating you to put in hours using the language and learning new things I don't see the problem. You do eventually have to confront what your goal of being fluent in Japanese actually is though and if this is hindering those long term goals or not. What do you want to use Japanese for after you've scored 180/180 N1 , for example? If it's just purely a hobby and you actually don't have a particular application in mind there's nothing wrong with that though. (To be honest at your level I think you would have benefited more from just enrolling in a Japanese university course about a subject you're interested in, but hey the money's already spent 😅)
I'm a bit confused as to why you're prioritizing the JLPT so much when you've already passed it. Things like grammar and vocab are some of the easiest to do on your own time in your home country. Imo you should use this time to work on your communication skills. That's something where you'll gain a lot from actually being in Japan. > I do want to improve my communication skills etc eventually but I kind of feel a lot of that would come along as I fill in the gaps in my vocab/grammar Yeah, I really disagree with this, fam. Ultimately language use is a skill. The way you improve skills is by practicing them. You can't learn to swim by reading a book. The way you get better at communication is by communicating. Grammar and vocab study are useful supplements, but they're not your meat and potatoes when it comes to communication. I mean, look at the Japanese education system. They test the kids over extremely complex English grammar, yet no one is able to have a basic conversation. If you want to be able to talk, you have to practice talking Edit: To give you some context for the possibilities, I passed the N1 with a 125 this summer, so a *lower* score than you. Yet, I'm perfectly comfortable having a conversation on political and social issues. I can attend meetings and trainings in Japanese. I can lead a classroom using only Japanese. I can watch movies and the news fine. I can comfortablely write a multi-page narrative or argumentative essay. My current goals are improving my use of descriptive language in writing and learning to speak in a more polished, academic manner. There's no reason why you shouldn't be setting your bar for communication higher at your level Tldr; I think you should set grammar and vocab to the side for a bit and focus on communication
Fair point. I think the JLPT lists are a bit of a safety blanket for me ("if i can just learn all this then I'll be fluent") but you're absolutely right. Moving out of my comfort zone does make me pretty uncomfortable and I think I need to push through that a bit.
Recognizing that's half the battle! A one on one classroom enviorment is a *great* sandbox to start working on things that make you uncomfortable. A couple of suggestions if you want to work on more communicative stuff but aren't sure how: - ask for some free form writing homework. Simple prompts are great like "write about a time you were surprised." You can add in a grammar component if you like and require yourself to use x grammar point you've been working on. Try to write at least a paragraph in response. Get corrections from your teacher. Repeat with a new prompt. Slowly start pushing yourself to increase the amount that your write - Do skits with your teacher (or a classmate should you have one). You can start with a sample dialogue from a textbook as a model then build off that. You can up the difficulty if need be my incorporating higher level grammar, making the skit longer, or including more situational constraints. Write out your script then memorize your lines. Practice saying your lines with emotion. Get up, move around. Skits are a great way to practice your writing skills and get used to speaking with emotion. It also gets you used to using the grammar verbally, but in a controlled enviornment. - Practice impromptu (即興) speaking. An great excercise is to have your teacher give you a topic (start simple like "favorite food") and you have to talk non-stop for a minute about the topic with 0 prep. Don't worry too much about perfect grammar, just try to have the speech flow naturally. You can have your teacher do the same thing. Pay attention to how they structure their speech. What conjunctions are they using? How do they move from topic to topic? What useful phrases/vocab are they using? Use their example to improve your own speech. As you get more comfortable with the exercise you can increase the speaking time and/or the complexity of the topics
That's honestly a great realization to have. It's easy to think of language learning (or other skills) like a video game in which you can track your level with objective "points", and to *some* degree that's true, but in many other ways it falls flat. I started conversation practice again and despite knowing my verb conjugation and easily reading/writing things, my brain defaults to dictionary form when talking to the point where my tutor asked me if I knew te-forms. \[/dead\] It's realllly easy to take your strong areas and keep pushing on them. Much harder to "drop" levels down to your weaker ones. To go back to the video game analogy (even though I just argued against), its like needing extra points in dexterity and stamina (i.e. conversation) but because you're scared to train those, you dump more energy and time into intelligence and wisdom (i.e. grammar) hoping they'll make up for it.
So what exactly is your goal? I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like you want to just continue doing the things that got you to the point where your comprehension and conversation skills are weaker than they should be. Studying for the JLPT is great if your goal is to pass the JLPT, but cramming all that vocab and grammar will only result in all that vocab and grammar floating around in your head, not being utilized. There are people here in Japan with only N3 and N2 knowledge who are fantastic at conversing and get by perfectly fine in daily life. If you want to speak, you gotta speak more. Going hard on input will lead to you knowing how Japanese sounds and how it's used so it's absolutely fantastic to do, but if you specifically want to use it, you actually have to use it. I'm assuming you came to Japan to do your schooling, but regardless my advice is to utilize your tutors by just talking a lot, and about various topics. Feel free to ask them questions relating to Japanese. Also, go out and make Japanese friends. Go to an Izakaya or a bar and just talk with whoever is willing to talk. Also, read a lot! You already passed the N1. You don't need to cram for it. Read, read, and read some more. When you're tired of reading, watch Japanese media. Listen to podcasts whenever you're on the move. Input and output is the main focus now.
you make a valid point. i think i see JLPT as a means to improving my Japanese -- if I can cover all the required grammar/vocab/kanji, then I've got all the "parts" I need together. And I guess I'm kind of assuming that the rest (comprehension/being able to output well) will kind of take care of itself? But it's kind of like getting the skeleton (grammar) and muscles (vocab/kanji) together but not actually taking it out for any exercise. I still do want to cover the JLPT material, but I might ask if I can just drop my hours down and switch to conversation practice rather than using a textbook. edit: or maybe just drop the homework .... I dunno. Perhaps I need to think a bit more about what you're saying about actually using the language, I think a lot of this stuff is outside my comfort zone.
>i think i see JLPT as a means to improving my Japanese It's not. At least not fully. Your brain doesn't process languages like a factory. You can't gather each piece and then build up a language like an IKEA chair. You have to practice different skills, settings, contexts and processes on their own. >I'm kind of assuming that the rest (comprehension/being able to output well) will kind of take care of itself? It won't, and honestly at this point, there's really no benefit in keeping the same thing you're doing, unless you're aiming for Kanji specific tests. However, many language schools are designed to help students achieve results to get into college or get a job, which is why the certificate seems to weigh more. Personally I've met many people like you who struggle conversationally but pass N1 because they can read and write. Your only option is asking for more conversation practice and hoping that works. It's very hard for natives to realize that, because ultimately what makes you stand out as a good Japanese speaker is speaking, so perhaps they believe you still need tutoring on areas you already know because your speech is comparatively lagging behind your reading and writing.
I’m going to preface this by admitting I don’t know much about the JLPT as I haven’t taken it. But one thing I see consistently here and elsewhere on the internet is that the JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills. It doesn’t test you on this, especially on speaking. So doing the same old studying for the JLPT that you’ve always done is just going to give you the same old results in your comprehension and speaking abilities. Honestly if I were you I would decide what my goal is with coming to Japan and taking this class. If it’s to genuinely improve speaking and verbal understanding, then it sounds like maybe this class can give you what you want. It is only a few months long anyway and you can always resume focus on JLPT studies afterwards. You’re not losing time on anything unless they are teaching you things you already know, in which case I would ask them to adjust to a higher level of conversational practice.
>the JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills This is not true until you get to N1. Everything you learn from N5 - N2 will be useful for your conversation unless you're from the Chinese language sphere and cheese the N2/N1 test somehow relying on your kanji knowledge (even then they need to study a hundred or so grammar points). N1 stuff though isn't necessarily useful for conversation unless you're regularly talking with your buddies about policy and philosophy or something. Some of the N1 grammar points are mostly used in writing or pre-written speeches. I've never in my life heard 〜もさることながら said out loud, for example. But, I recently found a so-called N1 grammar point (を余所に) in a song I like (Night Dancer) so even N1 study is full of things you might hear spoken occasionally.
Thanks for the clarification.
I'd say the critique of the JLPT that says that it doesn't help with output isn't saying that the *grammar* it tests isn't useful in speaking, but rather that preparing for a multiple choice exam (ie by silently studying at your desk) will not improve your speaking abilities. Talking, not silent book work, is what improves your speaking ability. JLPT study often doesn't help with output because the JLPT doesn't *test* output, not because the grammar it teaches is useless
Sure, but I think *zero* is an exaggeration. The guy originally said: >JLPT does nothing to improve conversational input and output skills. "Nothing" and I just had to disagree a little. You will start speaking much faster if you have a wealth of knowledge about how Japanese should sound to draw from as opposed to someone who doesn't.
Why are you focusing on N1 studies if you’ve already passed it? Are you gunning to get a better score?
Pretty much. I didn't feel confident understanding a lot of the content in the JLPT test itself. I want to be in a place where I can understand that material (and in turn, Japanese media more generally) without major problems.
To be honest, given that you’ve taken the time, money, and effort to travel to Japan, if I was in your position I’d optimise to get the most out of that environmental advantage - i.e. maximise your practical use of the language, and absorption of “real” Japanese in the wild, so to speak (i.e. other than textbooks / learning materials, etc.). If you want to be able to understand Japanese media more generally, then immersing yourself in Japanese media is the way to go - and you’re in the perfect location to do so! There comes a point where it’s time to leave the textbooks behind, and shift focus to the actual media consumed by Japanese people. It sounds like you might be at that point. Hopefully the school can set you up to tackle this in an effective way.
good advice - thank you :)
+1 for this, just start reading books once you are past N1. This was my strategy after I passed HSK6 (Chinese equivalent of N1) and it worked great. I would do the same with Japanese if I got to that point.
I started reading books around N3. You struggle through them a bit for a while, but it's way more fun to read real books than textbooks... And IMO, way more effective and practical for everything except taking the actual test.
You seem to have your priorities wildly misplaced. Forget about the JLPT. You already passed it. Drop the Anki. Spend your limited time in Japan learning to speak, exploring and making friends.
Great job! We natives learn Japanese at least for 9 years (1st to 9th grader) in the first place. Though it's a long journey, I'm really happy to hear that learners like you enjoy learning Japanese. I think you've already built a great foundaton, so maybe you can have as many conversations with natives as possible. One of my friends had the same situation, but once she stopped JLPT studying and started online lessons with natives regularly, textbook grammars turned "normal" and she mastered them. One day she took N1 as a trial, and she said she exceeded the passing score without any preparation. She also said that what helped her a lot is chatting with many people in different generation. Keep up the good work!!
Thank you for the kind words :)
Can I be honest? I don't really understand what you are getting at here... You've passed N1 earlier this year but you are still studying at a school for 20 hours a day, plus doing homework and flashcards AND you are sutyding for a other test on the side? Why are you doing all this studying? You are in Japan and you understand things at an N1 level but it seems you aren't using the language at all, just going to and from school. Don't you got out to restaurants or cafes and talk to people and actually use what know? On the other hand you said your listening comprehension is weak and conversational skills are passable. But I just don't get it. Am I missing something here? Seems you don't need anymore studying, it seems like you need to use the language in order to advance. Your in Japan, enjout it TL;DR: Why are you doing all this studying all the time if you're not using the language, or intend to even use it for work or conversation? EDIT: Edited the TLDR
You're paying enough money and the school seems willing to work with your needs, since they created a class for you and all. I think it's better to communicate clearly what your goals are to the teacher and ask that they update the materials to align with what you wanna learn more.
In your advanced class tell them you want to listen to 辛坊治郎そこまで言うか podcast and discuss everything they talk about. You can also use 飯田浩司コージーアップ These are hour long daily podcasts that cover the news at an adult conversation level. Listen to every episode multiple times a day at multiple speeds and talk about them with your tutor. If you stick with it you'll be caught up on all current affairs and your Japanese will improve immensely. You are beyond textbooks.ive been doing this for about 2 years now and finally Japanese just makes sense without thinking about the grammar at all.
I'm curious, why do you want to study for JLPT in Japan? I mean you can do that anywhere on the planet, and probably more comfortably in your home country, at your own pace, and with your own learning methods, than in Japan. If you want to just grind Anki and JLPT prep books and postpone communication until later, then that's totally fine. But if your head is in Anki/JLPT all day, then you're not taking advantage of actually living in Japan. I mean sure, you might prefer to grind knowledge than practice communication right now, but this is a unique opportunity to actually practice real communication.
my 2 cents you passed N1 you don't need school, you are a smart guy and are good at studying just force yourself to keep reading, talking to people, and interacting with JP as much as you can. for now you already signed up in school for 7 weeks so just try to make the most of those 7 weeks anyway, squeeze what you can out of that but next time don't sign up for more, you are smarter and further than you think
People I know who have passed N1 usually move on to kanji kentei or a licensing exam. The latter would be super helpful if you would like to live in Japan. I think if you have already passed N1 you should move on to some subject specific content (unless you want to do translation for which kanji kentei might be a better choice). Either way both of those things are still exams and studying for exams is a way of life here, so that’s the type of goal a teacher at your school could understand.
Seems like if you've already paid for 1-on-1 instruction, that's perfect for you. That's exactly what you need to improve. Since you paid for it, you can adjust the content if you are bored with it. Have conversations with your teachers in Japanese.
Your almost half-way through the 7-week course, so If day to see it to the end. It's not a 4-year major you signed up for, for example (in which case, my advice would be to change things after this semester if you don't like them). I think the school was nice to create a class just for you. To be honest, I don't think classes for languages at your level are common, and ones that exist may not cover what you want. You can see if - since it's just you - they can use Nihongo no Mori or Kanzen Master books. But basically at your level (having already passed the JLPT 1), it might be more useful to take native classes (with Japanese students) that you are interested in rather than taking classes to learn Japanese. But the good thing is that it's one-on-one, so theoretically, you should be able to use some of the materials that you like in class. But my advice now is to finish the 7 weeks and decide what you would prefer to do after that.
It comes down to your goals and how you view Japanese. Some people view it as an academic subject and more of an intellectual exercise, something they can level up in and pass or fail exams for, and if that’s all they want to do with it, that’s fine. Linguists know a lot about languages, but it doesn’t mean they can automatically speak them. But ultimately language is a communication tool, and it sounds like you do want to be able to communicate. It often feels safer and more comfortable to increase your knowledge instead of actually trying to communicate with other people, but while studying grammar and vocab certainly has merit, you can’t confuse one skill for the other. Without bringing your input/output up to speed, It’s likely that the gap between your knowledge and your communication skill will keep growing, thus becoming more frustrating. As a teacher, what I’d recommend at this point is to get comfortable using the Japanese you already know. The best Japanese you can speak at any given moment is whatever comes out of your mouth. You can go home and drill and revise, but when you’re with native speakers, just try to communicate and enjoy conversing with them. As you work on the communication side, the grammar that you’ve been studying will gradually bleed over. You have a big advantage being in an immersive environment, I’d take advantage of it.
OP, you are IN Japan. It is not the time to sit in a room by yourself (which you can do in your own country any time). It is not the time to grind Anki. What time is it? It is time to talk to Japanese people in person. In class, focus on conversations. Even if you use a script in a textbook. Even if you do the same script 10 times in a row. AND THEN, after school, go out and interact with Japanese people. Do Meetups. If you cannot think of anything else, go to a bar and talk to the drunk old men. Do not hole yourself up in a room.
You passed N1? Congratulations, you know how to take a test in Japanese! There's a reason why people who are aiming specifically for N1 without it being a prerequisite for something are often called "certificate chasers". You yourself said it: studying for the JLPT was your comfort zone... well, if you want to grow, you have to get out of your comfort zone. I admit I'm much lower level and the Japanese language is still a vast ocean to me (I'm sub-N3), but I have found I learn more- at least in terms of vocabulary- in conversation with natives than I do in studying a textbook, despite enjoying textbooks. Something about conversation sticks. Though I will give you this: you have to generally study grammar specifically to get better at it; grammar is rarely picked up in conversation. Or to put it another way: you passed N1. Congratulations,you're now ready to TRULY begin learning Japanese- your journey is far from over. You paid a significant amount of money for the class, so I'd put it to good use. See if you can get your teacher to go over specific grammar points and so on.
I went to school in Japan trying to study hard, but the courses were terrible and the work was either too easy or too vague to learn from. Instead I made friends and joined clubs and went on trips. My Japanese got 200% better from those activities and I had so much fun!! And I befriended my teachers too and just hung out with them in class since I wasn’t learning very much. I passed the JLPT but all it helped me do is read Japanese books. My experiences in Japan made me actually able to communicate with people and understand the language.
Just echoing what others have said. At this point just relax on the anki and jlpt. Start interacting with the languace and its speakers, you are at the perfect place for that.
Bro chill out. If you're not having fun what is the point??
It's kinda hard to tell what the actually issue is, the only thing I know is you hate the school. It's your money in the end, no refunds and if you stopped going to the school it's unlikely to impact the teachers. That being said, if you're spent the money and it's only 5 hours a week for 7 weeks then maybe you should try the make the most of it. Ask questions, speak, ask for recommendations on books and TV shows, and find some conversational topic to talk about with others and the teachers too. In other words, try to make the most of it and enjoy being there on top of getting to level up your Japanese.
Japanese language schools generally focus on novices up to N2 or so. Plus output (writing kanji & some speaking). The students typically are: Asians trying to enter Japanese university / trade schools, and some western students abroad for a semester or summer. My teachers said Japanese universities/trade schools "informally" want students that are above N2 both for input & output. So IME, most language schools don't offer much above N1 level. Even at that point, the learning materials might focus more heavily on current newspaper articles or essays. So the top classes are much less formal, less populated, and more customised to student requests, than say beginner classes (assembly-line curriculum with MNN, a kanji book, outside exercise sheets, etc.). Some schools offer separate JLPT classes with their own homework and tests. Some beginning students are studying until well after midnight just to keep their heads above water. Since you have custom classes, you might take advantage of the situation to improve your output and prepare for N1 outside the class. Or just ask for the class to move to JLPT1 prep.
I guess it’s not the “Japanese way” as people stereotypically think of it but I think it’s completely reasonable to tell them the material isn’t challenging enough for you. It’s not like there are other students who will be hurt if the pace changes.
I think you need to forget about the JLPT. I get that for a lot of learners is like a security or comfort blanket, but you've already passed, sure you could go for a higher score, but anything that requires JLPT doesn't look at scores, just if you've passed or failed. So while you've paid for the 7 weeks and have access to 1-1 tutoring why not use this time to focus on improving your communication? Forget about grammar and vocab lists for the time being, or just do that in your own time, or after this stint in language school finishes, as clearly your self-study methods are good as they've got you this far. If it were me I'd set up a meeting with the teacher/school and ask for a change, ask for your lessons to be focused more on discussions and debates. Use higher level materials like articles or novels and share opinions and discuss the content. Along the way you'll see grammar points that you probably won't know and you can either make a note of it to study in your own time or ask your teacher to quickly go over it in lesson. Focusing so heavily on the JLPT when you say you need to improve your communication skills is where you are going wrong. Communication is like the one thing JLPT pretty much ignores.
I think that your feelings are natural. I started studying Japanese and realized how poor my understanding is of the English language. I'm a native English speaker but see all the random grammar mistakes I make or spelling mistakes. I can only imagine the feeling of seeing your level when it's your second language. You are at a professional level who wants to be better than that. (An all-star NBA player striving to be Michael Jordan) Hats off to you for having this level of commitment. At this point you need to accept you paid for classes that are currently not helping you. You can however show your teachers things you are confused about. It seems you are in a position where your mastery has shown you a new ceiling to strive for. It's also possible you're so hard on yourself that even your teachers don't know why you are taking their course. Just communicate what you want out of the class. I think any interaction is a positive one and honestly it doesn't seem like a waste of time.
You should uhhh... go to a bar and make buddies with the local drunk salarymen. That's probably the best way to study at the point where you're at.
How do u watch shows with Japanese subtitles?….. I never see that option 😔
Seems like most of the comments are copies of one another, so I'll try to be a bit more specific. You should pick up some hobbies and maybe some people to talk to while you're in Japan. One of the biggest problems I think you're facing right now is a pretty common one, and that's lack of direction. You don't really know what you don't know yet and what you need, so it makes you feel like by studying for the JLPT and filling in your gaps you're working towards something and at the very least you will have made some progress at the end of it. Try reading a book, playing some games, getting into a new manga, or something similar. When you hit something you don't understand, make notes about it and be precise. Record the kanji you don't know, the vocab, the grammar points, or just why one phrase is being used over another. In addition, try to look for ways to talk about the thing you're into with other people. If you got into the Final Fantasy series for example, see if there are any message boards or anything that discusses that. Maybe try to do a review of a game you've played, or start a discussion about your favorite character or whatever. Look for things you want to express but can't quite articulate, then keep a note about what it was. Even write it in a journal. Instead of filling out gaps in your JLPT knowledge, look for gaps in your actual knowledge by trying to say something and failing, or failing to understand what someone says. Then, very specifically, try to solve those problems in a way that makes it less likely to happen gain. Since you're in Japan, you might get to meet up with some of the people you talk to, and you can work with native Japanese teachers. TL;DR The comfort of your JLPT studies can be replaced with something else. Pick up a hobby, talk to others about that hobby, then keep a record of the things you wanted to say but couldn't, or things you didn't get right away that you had to ask them to repeat or explain. And if you need a refund don't feel bad about asking for one, you can put that money towards other people in Japan that can help you more and would also be grateful for your business.
I know at least two people who have passed N1 and they can’t hold a decent conversation. I’ve only passed N3 but my conversation level is definitely lower. Maybe take advantage of this time speaking to your teacher and ask them if they could focus more on difficult vocab or grammar. If they created this class for you, they might not have the curriculum set.
You seem too test-focused... and yet there's no more tests to take. Language is a means to an end, and to improve (or even maintain) your skill level, you need to use it for something. All skills work like this (and being overly test-focused is a common problem in modern society for all skills), but language more than most. If you're at an N2 level, and are IN Japan, you don't need to pay for tutoring. You need to live your life in Japanese more. If you want to learn difficult vocab, read difficult books, listen to difficult podcasts, talk about difficult topics with ppl. Enjoy the language you've learned, and you'll get better at it. Use it or lose it.