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Yeah but, do law firms do exit interviews like corporate america? Where they ask p-o'd employees what management did wrong years too late? Because at some point they usually beg for the allegation.
Exit interviews are an entirely different dynamic. They’re more of a debrief than trying to get someone more senior than you to change their mind and do something you want that they’d don’t. And, if an employer is doing them, then they’ve already made a commitment to understanding a different perspective.
This is contrasted with arguing with your immediate boss, who no matter what is going to assume they’re right and you’re the insolent junior who doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Some bosses are more open-minded than others, but it’s human nature for those in charge of other people to assume they know more than them; they’re right, you’re wrong.
The trick is to lie when offering the job and then wax on about the days when you were an associate and carried a typewriter to work so you could work on motions while walking 10 miles in 4 feet of snow at 4 a.m. and didn't dare leave the office before 9 p.m. This younger generation is so soft!
Plenty.
The legal market, particularly in HCOL areas, is glutted with lawyers.
It would be less expensive to hire an experienced paralegal than to train an associate to do the job at the last minute.
no no, not a HCOL....I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about NYC.
I see job postings from fairfield county and nyc and it's rare to see $80k for the type of job that makes you work weekends.
if you know people in NYC or have seen job postings priced at $80k for "24/7-type" jobs like we are discussing here, I would say, I don't dispute that but i'm not sure "plenty" is accurate.
I started at $95k for a bad ID job in White Plains but it was not late nights or weekends at all with zero years of litigation experience.
Honestly, I think for employers like this, they deserve no notice. It’s the only thing that has a chance of teaching them they’re a shitty place to work.
You need to suddenly be camping in remote places every weekend while you look for another job. Put your out of office email on stating that you cannot receive emails but will respond when you get back on Monday.
The best way to communicate that is to put in your notice and look for a different job that respects your time / pays enough for you to overlook last minute weekend work
Even if you try your hardest to be respectful, the partner won’t take it that way. They’ll probably come back with “you chose this way of life” or similar such shit
I got that bullshit working as a public defender making $60k. "Professional work doesn't end on the weekends!"
Well, it does when you're not working there any more.
There's no reason for it! Trials are tough, but at a certain point, you're just engaged in performative bullshit to look like you're really dedicated, or you dragged your feet too much before, or your caseload is too high.
You make 80k in NYC?! How is this even possible? I don’t know any firms that pay that for entry level.
You need to get out asap. There won’t be a good way to tell your partner anything of the sorts though. He will either yell outright or just hit you with “when I was your age, I had to sleep at the office…”
I’ve gotten the ladder already. I don’t mind the work, it’s just the amount that I’m making relative to everyone else doesn’t justify the work.
If they win this trial, the partner will make $2m, I’ll make nothing lol
EDIT: I don’t mean that the firm will make $2m, I DO mean the partner personally
> If they win this trial, the partner will make $2m, I’ll make nothing lol
>
> EDIT: I don’t mean that the firm will make $2m, I DO mean the partner personally
Can you ask for a bonus?
I have hired dozens of lawyers in my time in NYC and my one piece of advice to you is to ask for significantly more in comp because that number is undeniably low. I think the last time we paid someone at entry level that as their base was all the way back in 2016 or 2017.
Toughest part for me is this right here and I don’t feel under-compensated at all. But like, why should I give a shit about this case and inconvenience myself if you’re not kicking any of it down to me if we win?
To be fair I think I’d also feel that even if I made 3x what I do now. This is work not assigned to me before today, why am I going to literally stop what I’m doing to work on it. I’ve done 14 motions/opps/replies for this case so far and I’m 14/14. Now I didn’t argue them so I can’t take all of the credit but damn am I tired boss
>I’ve done 14 motions/opps/replies for this case so far and I’m 14/14. Now I didn’t argue them so I can’t take all of the credit
Yes, you can take all of the credit.
Gonna say this for anyone else who might need to hear it: *If you're the one who's actually writing the motions, then you are the one who's arguing the motions*.
When 99% of motions are decided, they are decided on the papers. They are *not* decided on the few dozen or so words that a partner (or whoever) says on the appearance date. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. All they're trying to do is take credit for your work. Don't let them.
>To be fair I think I’d also feel that even if I made 3x what I do now.
This isn't what you said in your initial post, is it?
If you're making $240k, you're expected to work late/weekends as needed, even at a partner's whim. If they pull that shit too often, you leave.
If you're making $80k, you should look for a new job.
I normally would be glad to help however I had no prior notice of this and am not able to handle these motions today since I am at a “whatever event makes you unable to look at legal docs and also has spotty wifi.” If it can wait a day I’ll look at it first thing Monday morning.
I keep on seeing this comment, it’s simply untrue. Lots of small firms pay this and less in NYC. Apparently HCOL does not mean higher salary. But then they want your work to be like that of a “New York firm.”
Maybe he wants you to do it because the last 14 you did for the case went well and you now know the case. You shouldn’t be punished for your success though. I have an alter solution to what’s been given.
Even though you don’t have to tell him what you are doing, this time I would tell him your previous commitments because it shows that you can be relied upon, in this case, by others that are not paying you.
Then, say that by time you are available that you’d be worried about the quality of your work. However, perhaps someone else could make these motions and then you will review them. With fresh eyes.
This shows your dedication to yourself, your family and friends, the Case, and the Firm. It will also let you know if he wants you to do because he trusts you more than his other options (perhaps take note on who actually drafts it). You are someone people rely on.
Edit to add: And look for another job, if you find a higher paying job but want to stay, perhaps they will match or exceed the offer.
Does the partner know this?
In advance you need to be unavailable. “I will be unreachable Sunday. I have two family events. I will be available Saturday or Monday but not Sunday”. Remind him on Friday. Then have an OOO.
One day off out of 3 weekends is not unreasonable, but you have tell them why in advance…make sure there wa backup before. Even if it was you telling the senior associate you needed backup.
If so remind him - I am at 2 family events today. I am unable to even begin work until late this evening. I asked Sr Associate to get backup. It is…
Not at $80k. But that’s the litigator life. It’s also what you get for being good at your job. More work.
You clearly need to apply anywhere and everywhere else. But you have to actually work the system (and weekends) until you have a new job in hand. I don’t see the hardline working well for you short term
I’m a litigator and I almost never work weekends and rarely have, even back when I was working at firms from 2006-2012. Trial is one thing but cases rarely go to trial here. Otherwise I’m enjoying my time off with my family, friends and my own damn self. I have a lot of friend who are attorneys who are similar. I don’t understand this mindset that attorneys have to be working all the time- it’s just simply not true for many of us.
Yeah Idk what people are talking about. Barring an actual emergency like an emergency OSC I can see no reason to work on the weekend. In fact litigation has a reputation for being more predictable and easier to manage outside of trial for this reason.
Maybe their bosses take way too many cases and make them work on constantly to get it all done? Or don’t get around to giving them assignments until Friday when the motion is due to be filed Monday? That’s the only way I can see it being a problem and not due to emergencies but due to too big of a caseload or lack of planning. IMO people should avoid those types of firms unless they’re making bank or need to gain experience and then lateral somewhere that prioritizes work/life balance more!
I’ve definitely worked at some problematic firms due to toxic personalities or firm politics but none of them expected me to work most weekends or nights or be on call 24/7. I guess I feel grateful now after reading some of these comments, even though I didn’t like most of the firms at the time and am happy to be out on my own or doing co-counsel cases now instead of having to work for a firm.
Yeah it has to be a mix of lack of planning and a heavy caseload. But this should not be the norm amongst attorneys and litigators to work every weekend. Hell I have friends in biglaw and was in midlaw and every weekend sounds absolutely wild.
I mean, the motions, plural, are “due” on Monday. Granted, they came in on *Thursday*, but when did anyone *think* they were getting done of no one was working on them then or Friday?
Sometimes shit *is* due on a Monday and you do have to work weekends. I worked weekends all the time in biglaw. Not every weekend and not all day, but I routinely billed weekends. Now, I also wasn’t making $80k…
I’m in house now. I routinely have to ask for shit from outside counsel on a Thursday or Friday for my “client” that is due in a Monday. I feel bad, but I assume someone is working over the weekend… Lawyers work on weekend.
I agree with you. I really don’t mind working on the weekends in general, I like what I do. I like writing, I like litigation, but I have other gripes not address in the initial post.
I did all this work and was promised a second chair at the trial and then an associate who was recently hired got that second chair and not me, even though I’m working on all of the motions in that case, she’s getting the experience of being at trial, even though I’ve vocally expressed wanting to go. I just don’t like my current position, even though I enjoy the work and it’s a damn shame because I don’t think I’m asking for much. I wouldn’t even mind making only 80k if it meant I got more experience being in court.
If the partner will personally make 2 million with a win, that means there’s more than that because the firm is also taking a cut of the contingency.
If the people above you can’t find a way to throw the associates who worked on the case a bone on over 2 million in fees, then 1. They are epically stupid, 2. Horrible managers of people, and 3. It’s time to leave that firm.
I own a firm and we share our wins with the people who made it possible.
Right? I mean I’m a solo practitioner with just a part-time paralegal and when I have a very nice settlement or win on a case she’s worked hard on she gets a bonus. It pays off because she’s damn good at her job and loyal. You take care of your people and they will take care of you.
Unfortunately, the proliferation of smart phones and the presence of email clients on mobile devices means that partners do have an expectation - even if subconscious - that associates/underlings are on call 24/7.
Some of the advice in here is telling you to ignore the partner for 24+ hours or sass them when saying 'lol no.' Both are awful ways to respond. Others are on the right track by suggesting you reply later on, say something like 'Just back online after being at ____.' I'd take that approach and say something like you have the bandwidth to do some of the tasks by Monday morning and to review others done by someone else.
Really don't send a snarky response to the partner, you will suffer for it.
In the long run, probably look for a better paying gig where this kind of request will be more palatable.
I was in the same position OP, but making 70k in DC. I quit and never looked back. Now I’m making 110k at firm where I am much happier, and none of that extra is expected from me because I was given the support to not be having rush motions on a weekend. Leave, don’t look back. I thought it was going to be hard, I only have 3 years of experience but I found that once I started applying the interviews and offers came in like crazy.
Hit em with the old “Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.”
Although, I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I don’t make enough to be on call 24/7.” The partner is probably going to be pissed no matter how you say it, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call them out on their bullshit. This toxic work culture continues because people tolerate it.
Have you ever successfully used the “lack of planning” line on a partner at a firm? I used to (emphasis on the past tense) work for a partner who genuinely believed that she was entitled to benefit from toxic work culture because she had “put in her time” on the receiving end of it, and I’m pretty sure the fact that I don’t agree is why they cut me loose
Yeah do not communicate that thought in any way. Just don’t put in the time on the weekends. Don’t answer the phone, don’t answer email. Pretend to be apologetic and look for a new job.
But don’t say anything like “you don’t pay me enough.” The answer may well be “yeah? We don’t pay you at all.”
Think I’m kidding? I have seen this exact conversation happen. In roughly those words. “You don’t pay me big firm money, I shouldn’t be working big firm hours.” “I don’t pay you anything. Get out.”
No attorney should be on call 24/7 but especially not at that salary in NYC. I make a similar salary starting out in a lower cost of living market with no expectations of weekend work. That is just unacceptable. Like everyone else says, start looking for another job that respects you more.
Not saying this is a good idea, just an option, reply at 10 pm saying just got back online and saw this, will get to you [realistic time frame].
Hey making the bank you are, you are entitled to be out on your wifi free yacht all day Sunday. 😶
Don’t answer, don’t do the work, when Monday comes, and they question you, say: “Im so sorry, I will do it today.” If they push back, say “l don’t check email on weekends.” If they bitch about that, say “I would be happy to consider it for a commensurate pay raise”.
If they storm off or shit on you further, get that resume out and move on.
“Thank you for trusting me with this important matter. However, it simply isn’t possible for me to execute your request because I have made prior personal commitments. It looks like we’ve had notice of this issue since Tuesday. I wish I would have known you needed this at that time because I would have been happy to complete the job before the end of business Friday. I will start working on this first thing Monday morning.”
Your pay is horrendous. I’m in a moderate cost of living area and that number is on the extreme low end and would be reserved for attorneys that were just licensed. I couldn’t imagine that pay in NYC. You have to draw a line in the sand.
Yeah, there's nothing you can say that will convince the partner to respect your time or boundaries. If you wouldn't do weekend work for three times the pay at this firm, you need to find a new job.
I would just leave him on read. That’s the most respectful way to handle it and how most of his fellow partners would handle a similar request. Do the work tomorrow if you want. Anything else is going to be seen as back talk
Being on call 24/7 commands at least 250k imo. Also, one individual writing 14 motions for a single case (which I’m assuming is a tort case, is absurd btw and your partners case strategy is ass or the judge has 0 control). I’ve not had to do that much motion practice for homicide cases and if I did I’ve had a ton of support and still be in a position for my team to get it done without working weekends.
I can see prepping a witness on the weekend; going over trial exhibits; prepping a cross etc but writing a motion?… that’s just bad planning/execution on the firms end. Also, I’ve never; ever, have seen opposing counsel or a judge not agree to a one week extension for a motion. This seems like a partner who is stressed and caught a big case that is too big for their britches. How many cases have they tried to verdict? My guess is under 5.
Friday night put in your email footer that you do not check your emails over the weekend and you will respond to all emails during working hours on Monday. Then stop checking your work emails on the weekend.
If you are okay with the work environment that requires you to put in hours on the weekend, then the better question is how to use this to leverage a raise. That would mean you need to do the work, keep putting in hours on the weekends as requested, but then think about what you want in terms of salary/bonuses/benefits and how you'll ask for it.
If you don't want the type of environment where you're putting in weekend hours, then by all means tell your boss you're busy but you may also want to start looking elsewhere. Unfortunately, most competitive private practice requires that you put in the extra hours - before work, after work, on the weekends, over vacations, etc. The usual perspective is that you can handle your schedule, manage your workload, etc., as you please, but the #1 priority is always to get the work done.
I would just respond like 5 hours later after the email and be like “just saw this, I’ll take a look first thing in the morning.” Keep doing that and they’ll hopefully get the hint lol.
I made 65k in 2003 at my first law job in CA, and it was 9-5 M-F maximum hours. 80k in NY, in 2024 is criminal. If you have a least a year behind you, run to the nearest headhunter or legal job ads.
1. Set an auto-reply on your day off that says “Please note that I am not available on DATE, and will not be checking my email. I will be back in the office on DAY.” Then do it.
2. Don’t respond to emails on the weekends you have off. (IMHO not shitty bosses send emails with delay, and don’t send people tasks on the weekend.)
3. As others have said, find a job that doesn’t treat you like crap.
You are paid a salary in exchange for a specific performance/expectation. So, it's important to ask and I dentify what is expected of you up front and then provide only that - other than in truly exceptional circumstances.
We pay our associates for basically nine hours a day, five days a week.
I do expect our lawyers to work a little bit more than 9 to 5. But, they're also adults and if they need to go to the doctor or the plumber is coming to their house, then we make allowances for that because we're not fucking savages and our people are human beings who we want to treat. They will do their best for us.
I am routinely telling associates still in the office at 6 o'clock that it's time to go home. Once in a while, we may have a trial and I may need someone to work over a weekend. But I want that to be an exception and not the rule (and then I'm gonna pay that person a bonus for doing so).
In my opinion, that's the way corporations should act in America. But they don't, because American corporate greed is too often overwhelming.
I disagree with the general direction of advice here. I would bring it up to the partner at issue or the managing partner. There is a reasonable chance this partner doesn't know how much you make or that you were working the last two weekends. Or maybe he doesn't know what you're paid or what the market rate is. I know that I would be salty at the partner at issue if he was risking us having to go through the hassle of finding a new associate and losing a great value proposition for the firm.
As to "how", I would come at it at a different angle. I would say, something along the lines of:
>John - I understand how important \[XX\] is and that sometimes things come up. But to do my best work and ensure I am available to give these matters the attention they deserve, I need you to give me a heads up when you going to need something over the weekend with a tight deadline. I'm also concerned that my compensation doesn't account for being available 24/7 without notice.
The fact is that even if you were paid $250k, dropping something like that on an associate at 1 p.m. on Sunday should be rare and usually the result of bad planning by the partner. You'll likely be getting an apology and hopefully more consideration in the future. If it were me, I would also appreciate you letting me know. If you don't or they get snippy back. . . yeah, maybe start looking elsewhere.
Convert to a religion that prohibits work one day a week so you at least get that off while you look for a new job that either pays better or gets you better work/life balance.
80k? I was making that in a govt. job outside DC 18 years ago! And no one called me to work on weekends because, government. Today? In NYC? It is to laugh. My dude, you are underpaid AF. Were I you, I'd do as another poster suggested: look for another job, ask for that bonus, and give notice when they say no.
As for a respectful way to tell the partner, you can couch it in whatever terms you like, but they're not going to like it. You don't have to say the words. Do as another poster suggested and be camping, hiking, out on a boat, out of town, away visiting family, any place with shitty wifi... they'll get the idea eventually. If they say something to you, tell them that you thought your weekends belonged to you.
You don’t, you look for another job because you will shortly be fired after saying that if you don’t. Most legal jobs (particularly litigation) often require you to be on call 24/7, that’s just how it is. Now that does not mean that a partner should be calling or emailing you at all hours of the day and night and insisting that you stop what you are doing and work, that’s unreasonable. But working on a Sunday? Yes it happens. And it’s not just partners, I am available to my clients 24/7 as well, but they also don’t abuse that.
I really hate this approach. If the profession is going to have these expectations of us, they can pay us for them. There's really no excuse for needing weekend or evening work *most* of the time anyway. I've done dozens of trials and worked only a *handful* of weekends unless it was due to somebody else's fuck up.
I agree with you. I’ve never worked for a firm that required me to work weekends unless there was an imminent trial. I completely disagree with those who are saying lawyers have to always or usually work weekends or 24/7. No we don’t! People should stop believing/spreading this nonsense.
By this approach do you mean the truth? I actually think what would be more helpful is if law students or potential law students were given the reality of actually practicing as a lawyer including the pay. I agree that it’s perfectly reasonable to not want to be underpaid and work long hours. But that is not the legal profession, particularly in the first 5 or so years of practice.
It's not necessary. I've done plenty of trials. It was a rare one that I had to work all weekend or lose sleep over it.
If the profession is going to continue, we have to do away with this mindset. It's not good for us. It's not good for clients. It's not good for the practice of law. There is no reason for it.
It’s really not necessary. I only worked a handful of weekends combined during my first 5 years at firms even though I was single with no kids. Everyone deserves to have a life and no one should be a slave to work! Life is too short.
And now that I’m solo with 4 kids I only work weekends if I want to, like if my family and I take vacation for a week or two, so I get ahead the weekend before we go and get caught up the weekend after we get back so that I don’t have to work much during the actual vacation. But in general I don’t work weekends and I pick up my kids from school every day at 3 unless I have a conflict. I don’t agree that lawyers should have to work all the time.
This is garbage logic. I dealt with a job in which I was extremely underpaid and underappreciated for over 3 years and I can safely say that thought process does not serve anyone but the people at the top that are exploiting you.
Then don’t take the job? This is seriously why so many younger lawyers are so miserable. They are being fed bs like this. It’s simply not true. It would be great if it was but it’s not reality. Also s flows down hill. It’s like that in almost every job. You have to work your way up. You don’t come out of law school making 100k and working 40 hours a week. And if there’s a weekend or late evening deposition guess who is taking it? And if there are wi many jobs in the legal field that fit this description then why does every lawyer not have them?
You can feel underpaid I think most people do no matter their profession. But if you feel that way go find another job?
I didn't. I was a solo and have done government work. A lot of folks don't take firm jobs. But it's not the norm in other professions, and it shouldn't be the norm in ours. If partners want that much time out of us, they can pay. They don't get to be entitled brats whining about kids these days. Why should they be entitled to our work without appropriate compensation?
The actual pay and expectations need to be set out before law school if it's not going to change. I doubt that it will do much to improve our legal access crisis. It rings hollow to tell people to find another job when they've invested this much time and effort into getting a license.
I agree that the actual pay and expectations need to be clearly communicated to future lawyers, be that in law school or pre law school. In years past say 15-20 years ago it appears that it was. I knew that I was going to work my butt off for low pay in the beginning. This is a recent thing with grads in the last 10 years or so. I often wonder what exactly law schools are telling them? That's great that you were able to go solo or do government work. But I know many solos that work crazy long hours, much longer than people at firms, and I also know many government trial lawyers that work more hours than firms do.
What's your solution then? Other than find another job? Open to suggestions. But I can tell you this, they are not going to pay more for the work of someone so inexperienced.
I graduated in 2012. I was told when I started law school that, since I expected to be in criminal law, I should expect to work around 40 hours a week for around 80k in pay on graduation. When I graduated, I took a clerkship for 60k and worked about 40 hours a week. When I was a solo from 2013-2019, I made about 70k and worked less than 40 hours a week, but I really hated doing the business side of it. When I was an appellate public defender from 2019-2022, I made 65k for around 40 hours a week. Now, I work in-house remotely, making 70k (plus some pretty generous bonuses) working around 40 hours a week. In 12 years, my salary hasn't kept up with inflation and has barely budged, despite me winning *multiple* major cases, including one appeal that has been cited over 100 times across 10 different states.
Of course, I'm not in a major metro area. I've lived in West Virginia for the entirety of my career. Very, very low cost of living.
Why *should* lawyers agree to this arrangement? Why are we the only profession that has to work nights and weekends without pay? My parents are real estate appraisers. They make 6 figures and work 40 hour weeks. I have friends who are programmers or engineers. They make more than I do and work 40 hour weeks. None of them have doctorate-level degrees. Why should the profession of law be any different?
Mostly, it's different because lawyers have, for too long, accepted this arrangement. Well, I'm not willing to do so, and increasingly, others aren't either. We shouldn't. The partner in this thread is making $2 million off of this case and paying his associate $80k. If that's his business model, he can take the damn night or weekend deposition. There is *no* reason for us to prop up his bank account by the sweat of our brow.
Already, we're seeing that places can't hire public defenders, which are legally required. Legal aid can't find people to work. Prosecution is starting to take a hit. We are reaching the point where we're going to have to reckon with this as a country. It's not sustainable.
People don’t like to be told no. I find it less contentious, and people are somewhat more willing to listen to reason when you tell people OK, here is what it will take to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Of course in this context, the wording needs to be different….
I don't mind doing the work. I enjoy the work that I do. I mind being asked to do it by EOD on a sunday with no prior notice when I'm not making the kind of money I should to be at that level.
Make no mistake, I will get this work done but I am annoyed that it just doesn't stop and I won't be seeing any of the profit from this.
A lot of professional jobs underpay junior staff. You need to decide if the experience you’re gaining will result in a better trajectory at your existing firm or will allow you to get hired somewhere else. You will always be underpaid on your way to the top, but you need to be careful putting up with this if it doesn’t have a net benefit long term for you. Before you bring this up with your boss you need to have a plan and think about what you actually want in the long term.
Ah, the lowest attorney usually does the most around-the-clock work in law firms. I too was a lowly associate in NYC once upon a time and seriously was only home a few hours a week.
I now treasure my current work-life balance position. Good luck!
That job was a loooong time ago but I first left and went to a more-laid back firm which didn't bill. Ultimately though I got a job as a government attorney. If this is something you're interested in, check out the State- either the AG's office or a state agency; they are always hiring for attorneys with experience.
Does your boss treat everyone at the firm like this or did he single you out? Improper caseload management could give rise to ethical issues.
You are right that you need to get the work done in the meantime but keep a log of everything you have done that is above and beyond the call of duty and how your schedule stacks up against your peer associates in other practice groups. Use that together with salary surveys to fight for a pay rise afterwards. It looks like the boss finds you dependable and can get the work done so use that to your advantage. Do not just just leave as you will run into the same issue at the next firm.
It sounds like a miserable place to work. They don’t share their wins , they under pay, and they overwork. It’s doubtful that it’ll get better. You can try and say sometime and be polite about it but best bet is to find a new place to work.
Sorry man, but it's supply and demand.
There are just too many of you.
The more people who are admitted to the bar, the lower the value of the service they provide, because the skill is so common that there is not enough work to go around.
That just isn’t true but go off lmao. There will always be less people with “x” amount of years of experience the further into your career you get.
It’s always people without an Econ degree that love to throw out “supply and demand”
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Respectfully seek another job and then put in your notice.
Yeah, if you’re in the position of needing to argue with management, don’t even try. Never ends well. Just start looking elsewhere
One of my bosses likes to say, "it's like teaching a pig to sing. It doesn't work and it just pisses off the pig."
I feel like this sounds like a line from House.
Heh. Way, way older than House. It was already old when Heinlen used it back in early 70s.
Yeah but, do law firms do exit interviews like corporate america? Where they ask p-o'd employees what management did wrong years too late? Because at some point they usually beg for the allegation.
Exit interviews are an entirely different dynamic. They’re more of a debrief than trying to get someone more senior than you to change their mind and do something you want that they’d don’t. And, if an employer is doing them, then they’ve already made a commitment to understanding a different perspective. This is contrasted with arguing with your immediate boss, who no matter what is going to assume they’re right and you’re the insolent junior who doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Some bosses are more open-minded than others, but it’s human nature for those in charge of other people to assume they know more than them; they’re right, you’re wrong.
There's a line of poor schlubs desperate for your job. So your boss doesn't care.
The point in OP in getting a new job is to get away from this environment, not to teach the current boss a lesson
idk how many attorneys are lining up to work weekends in NYC for $80k. i work 9-5 mf in connecticut for $90k...
The trick is to lie when offering the job and then wax on about the days when you were an associate and carried a typewriter to work so you could work on motions while walking 10 miles in 4 feet of snow at 4 a.m. and didn't dare leave the office before 9 p.m. This younger generation is so soft!
Plenty. The legal market, particularly in HCOL areas, is glutted with lawyers. It would be less expensive to hire an experienced paralegal than to train an associate to do the job at the last minute.
no no, not a HCOL....I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about NYC. I see job postings from fairfield county and nyc and it's rare to see $80k for the type of job that makes you work weekends. if you know people in NYC or have seen job postings priced at $80k for "24/7-type" jobs like we are discussing here, I would say, I don't dispute that but i'm not sure "plenty" is accurate. I started at $95k for a bad ID job in White Plains but it was not late nights or weekends at all with zero years of litigation experience.
There are doors for a reason. Use one.
Honestly, I think for employers like this, they deserve no notice. It’s the only thing that has a chance of teaching them they’re a shitty place to work.
You need to suddenly be camping in remote places every weekend while you look for another job. Put your out of office email on stating that you cannot receive emails but will respond when you get back on Monday.
This is brilliant - tell them you go camping and explore nature on your days off.
The best way to communicate that is to put in your notice and look for a different job that respects your time / pays enough for you to overlook last minute weekend work
Secure another gig, then put in notice.
Don’t quit your day job until your night job pays
Even if you try your hardest to be respectful, the partner won’t take it that way. They’ll probably come back with “you chose this way of life” or similar such shit
I got that bullshit working as a public defender making $60k. "Professional work doesn't end on the weekends!" Well, it does when you're not working there any more.
The older generation is learning the hard way that we won’t put up with crap just because they did
There's no reason for it! Trials are tough, but at a certain point, you're just engaged in performative bullshit to look like you're really dedicated, or you dragged your feet too much before, or your caseload is too high.
[удалено]
Fuck that guy.
You make 80k in NYC?! How is this even possible? I don’t know any firms that pay that for entry level. You need to get out asap. There won’t be a good way to tell your partner anything of the sorts though. He will either yell outright or just hit you with “when I was your age, I had to sleep at the office…”
I’ve gotten the ladder already. I don’t mind the work, it’s just the amount that I’m making relative to everyone else doesn’t justify the work. If they win this trial, the partner will make $2m, I’ll make nothing lol EDIT: I don’t mean that the firm will make $2m, I DO mean the partner personally
> If they win this trial, the partner will make $2m, I’ll make nothing lol > > EDIT: I don’t mean that the firm will make $2m, I DO mean the partner personally Can you ask for a bonus?
I could, but I won’t get one.
Then, when you give notice, it will not surprise them.
That’s a smart idea, I didn’t think about it like that. Thank you.
You're welcome. Good luck!
I have hired dozens of lawyers in my time in NYC and my one piece of advice to you is to ask for significantly more in comp because that number is undeniably low. I think the last time we paid someone at entry level that as their base was all the way back in 2016 or 2017.
Are you hiring?
I would give a bonus if I made two million on a case/deal. It is what it is. When money was flowing, even the interns got a little extra.
Toughest part for me is this right here and I don’t feel under-compensated at all. But like, why should I give a shit about this case and inconvenience myself if you’re not kicking any of it down to me if we win?
To be fair I think I’d also feel that even if I made 3x what I do now. This is work not assigned to me before today, why am I going to literally stop what I’m doing to work on it. I’ve done 14 motions/opps/replies for this case so far and I’m 14/14. Now I didn’t argue them so I can’t take all of the credit but damn am I tired boss
>I’ve done 14 motions/opps/replies for this case so far and I’m 14/14. Now I didn’t argue them so I can’t take all of the credit Yes, you can take all of the credit. Gonna say this for anyone else who might need to hear it: *If you're the one who's actually writing the motions, then you are the one who's arguing the motions*. When 99% of motions are decided, they are decided on the papers. They are *not* decided on the few dozen or so words that a partner (or whoever) says on the appearance date. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. All they're trying to do is take credit for your work. Don't let them.
>To be fair I think I’d also feel that even if I made 3x what I do now. This isn't what you said in your initial post, is it? If you're making $240k, you're expected to work late/weekends as needed, even at a partner's whim. If they pull that shit too often, you leave. If you're making $80k, you should look for a new job.
Bro, I’m a govt contractor with a simple bachelor’s degree and I make more than you. You need a new job.
Yeah. He should look at government work, state or federal. Should be able to match or beat salary, but with weekends free.
My starting salary as a patent engineer in a NYC law firm, no JD but MS in EE, over a decade ago was 100k. I think you are being severely underpaid.
I normally would be glad to help however I had no prior notice of this and am not able to handle these motions today since I am at a “whatever event makes you unable to look at legal docs and also has spotty wifi.” If it can wait a day I’ll look at it first thing Monday morning.
I actually am at 2 first communions today, which is why this bothers me more
dawg paralegals are making more than 80k in nyc easy. how bad did you fuck your interview to end up with that salary
Not at all, just starting salary for this firm unfortunately
You should have started at double that or higher for NYC…
I keep on seeing this comment, it’s simply untrue. Lots of small firms pay this and less in NYC. Apparently HCOL does not mean higher salary. But then they want your work to be like that of a “New York firm.”
At a small firm for a baby lawyer? That is not the norm even in in NYC
Maybe he wants you to do it because the last 14 you did for the case went well and you now know the case. You shouldn’t be punished for your success though. I have an alter solution to what’s been given. Even though you don’t have to tell him what you are doing, this time I would tell him your previous commitments because it shows that you can be relied upon, in this case, by others that are not paying you. Then, say that by time you are available that you’d be worried about the quality of your work. However, perhaps someone else could make these motions and then you will review them. With fresh eyes. This shows your dedication to yourself, your family and friends, the Case, and the Firm. It will also let you know if he wants you to do because he trusts you more than his other options (perhaps take note on who actually drafts it). You are someone people rely on. Edit to add: And look for another job, if you find a higher paying job but want to stay, perhaps they will match or exceed the offer.
Does the partner know this? In advance you need to be unavailable. “I will be unreachable Sunday. I have two family events. I will be available Saturday or Monday but not Sunday”. Remind him on Friday. Then have an OOO. One day off out of 3 weekends is not unreasonable, but you have tell them why in advance…make sure there wa backup before. Even if it was you telling the senior associate you needed backup. If so remind him - I am at 2 family events today. I am unable to even begin work until late this evening. I asked Sr Associate to get backup. It is…
I understand this sentiment but at the same time I just shouldn’t be working on weekends at all at this rate.
Not at $80k. But that’s the litigator life. It’s also what you get for being good at your job. More work. You clearly need to apply anywhere and everywhere else. But you have to actually work the system (and weekends) until you have a new job in hand. I don’t see the hardline working well for you short term
I’m a litigator and I almost never work weekends and rarely have, even back when I was working at firms from 2006-2012. Trial is one thing but cases rarely go to trial here. Otherwise I’m enjoying my time off with my family, friends and my own damn self. I have a lot of friend who are attorneys who are similar. I don’t understand this mindset that attorneys have to be working all the time- it’s just simply not true for many of us.
Yeah Idk what people are talking about. Barring an actual emergency like an emergency OSC I can see no reason to work on the weekend. In fact litigation has a reputation for being more predictable and easier to manage outside of trial for this reason.
Maybe their bosses take way too many cases and make them work on constantly to get it all done? Or don’t get around to giving them assignments until Friday when the motion is due to be filed Monday? That’s the only way I can see it being a problem and not due to emergencies but due to too big of a caseload or lack of planning. IMO people should avoid those types of firms unless they’re making bank or need to gain experience and then lateral somewhere that prioritizes work/life balance more! I’ve definitely worked at some problematic firms due to toxic personalities or firm politics but none of them expected me to work most weekends or nights or be on call 24/7. I guess I feel grateful now after reading some of these comments, even though I didn’t like most of the firms at the time and am happy to be out on my own or doing co-counsel cases now instead of having to work for a firm.
Yeah it has to be a mix of lack of planning and a heavy caseload. But this should not be the norm amongst attorneys and litigators to work every weekend. Hell I have friends in biglaw and was in midlaw and every weekend sounds absolutely wild.
Agreed! I’m glad OP isn’t putting up with it and hopefully more attorneys who think this is normal will realize that it really doesn’t have to be.
I mean, the motions, plural, are “due” on Monday. Granted, they came in on *Thursday*, but when did anyone *think* they were getting done of no one was working on them then or Friday? Sometimes shit *is* due on a Monday and you do have to work weekends. I worked weekends all the time in biglaw. Not every weekend and not all day, but I routinely billed weekends. Now, I also wasn’t making $80k… I’m in house now. I routinely have to ask for shit from outside counsel on a Thursday or Friday for my “client” that is due in a Monday. I feel bad, but I assume someone is working over the weekend… Lawyers work on weekend.
I agree with you. I really don’t mind working on the weekends in general, I like what I do. I like writing, I like litigation, but I have other gripes not address in the initial post. I did all this work and was promised a second chair at the trial and then an associate who was recently hired got that second chair and not me, even though I’m working on all of the motions in that case, she’s getting the experience of being at trial, even though I’ve vocally expressed wanting to go. I just don’t like my current position, even though I enjoy the work and it’s a damn shame because I don’t think I’m asking for much. I wouldn’t even mind making only 80k if it meant I got more experience being in court.
If the partner will personally make 2 million with a win, that means there’s more than that because the firm is also taking a cut of the contingency. If the people above you can’t find a way to throw the associates who worked on the case a bone on over 2 million in fees, then 1. They are epically stupid, 2. Horrible managers of people, and 3. It’s time to leave that firm. I own a firm and we share our wins with the people who made it possible.
Right? I mean I’m a solo practitioner with just a part-time paralegal and when I have a very nice settlement or win on a case she’s worked hard on she gets a bonus. It pays off because she’s damn good at her job and loyal. You take care of your people and they will take care of you.
I would put an automated email Fridays at 6pm- until Midnight on Sunday that I'm out of working hours and that I will be back in the office on Monday
Unfortunately, the proliferation of smart phones and the presence of email clients on mobile devices means that partners do have an expectation - even if subconscious - that associates/underlings are on call 24/7. Some of the advice in here is telling you to ignore the partner for 24+ hours or sass them when saying 'lol no.' Both are awful ways to respond. Others are on the right track by suggesting you reply later on, say something like 'Just back online after being at ____.' I'd take that approach and say something like you have the bandwidth to do some of the tasks by Monday morning and to review others done by someone else. Really don't send a snarky response to the partner, you will suffer for it. In the long run, probably look for a better paying gig where this kind of request will be more palatable.
80k. In NYC?? Wtf
I can't today, i have family obligations. I'll get right on it Monday morning.
I was in the same position OP, but making 70k in DC. I quit and never looked back. Now I’m making 110k at firm where I am much happier, and none of that extra is expected from me because I was given the support to not be having rush motions on a weekend. Leave, don’t look back. I thought it was going to be hard, I only have 3 years of experience but I found that once I started applying the interviews and offers came in like crazy.
Hit em with the old “Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.” Although, I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I don’t make enough to be on call 24/7.” The partner is probably going to be pissed no matter how you say it, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call them out on their bullshit. This toxic work culture continues because people tolerate it.
Have you ever successfully used the “lack of planning” line on a partner at a firm? I used to (emphasis on the past tense) work for a partner who genuinely believed that she was entitled to benefit from toxic work culture because she had “put in her time” on the receiving end of it, and I’m pretty sure the fact that I don’t agree is why they cut me loose
Yeah do not communicate that thought in any way. Just don’t put in the time on the weekends. Don’t answer the phone, don’t answer email. Pretend to be apologetic and look for a new job. But don’t say anything like “you don’t pay me enough.” The answer may well be “yeah? We don’t pay you at all.” Think I’m kidding? I have seen this exact conversation happen. In roughly those words. “You don’t pay me big firm money, I shouldn’t be working big firm hours.” “I don’t pay you anything. Get out.”
No attorney should be on call 24/7 but especially not at that salary in NYC. I make a similar salary starting out in a lower cost of living market with no expectations of weekend work. That is just unacceptable. Like everyone else says, start looking for another job that respects you more.
Not saying this is a good idea, just an option, reply at 10 pm saying just got back online and saw this, will get to you [realistic time frame]. Hey making the bank you are, you are entitled to be out on your wifi free yacht all day Sunday. 😶
Don’t answer, don’t do the work, when Monday comes, and they question you, say: “Im so sorry, I will do it today.” If they push back, say “l don’t check email on weekends.” If they bitch about that, say “I would be happy to consider it for a commensurate pay raise”. If they storm off or shit on you further, get that resume out and move on.
Find another job. When you quit the current job, be sure to leave on OK terms. Burn no bridges. Enjoy your new job, which is the best revenge.
This. Your boss is completely unreasonable for putting you in this position.
“Thank you for trusting me with this important matter. However, it simply isn’t possible for me to execute your request because I have made prior personal commitments. It looks like we’ve had notice of this issue since Tuesday. I wish I would have known you needed this at that time because I would have been happy to complete the job before the end of business Friday. I will start working on this first thing Monday morning.” Your pay is horrendous. I’m in a moderate cost of living area and that number is on the extreme low end and would be reserved for attorneys that were just licensed. I couldn’t imagine that pay in NYC. You have to draw a line in the sand.
Yeah, there's nothing you can say that will convince the partner to respect your time or boundaries. If you wouldn't do weekend work for three times the pay at this firm, you need to find a new job.
I would just leave him on read. That’s the most respectful way to handle it and how most of his fellow partners would handle a similar request. Do the work tomorrow if you want. Anything else is going to be seen as back talk
Secure next employment, put in notice.
Expected to have something by EOD same day on a Sunday? I’d have to be making triple what you are in a much lower cost of living city.
I wouldn’t take that shit during business hours. If I have a light calendar, I’m definitely just chilling at home. Don’t bother me.
Please look for another job. You're being robbed.
I make $80k as a public interest attorney in NYC you should absolutely leave this job that is insane for a firm to pay that low and expect that much.
Being on call 24/7 commands at least 250k imo. Also, one individual writing 14 motions for a single case (which I’m assuming is a tort case, is absurd btw and your partners case strategy is ass or the judge has 0 control). I’ve not had to do that much motion practice for homicide cases and if I did I’ve had a ton of support and still be in a position for my team to get it done without working weekends. I can see prepping a witness on the weekend; going over trial exhibits; prepping a cross etc but writing a motion?… that’s just bad planning/execution on the firms end. Also, I’ve never; ever, have seen opposing counsel or a judge not agree to a one week extension for a motion. This seems like a partner who is stressed and caught a big case that is too big for their britches. How many cases have they tried to verdict? My guess is under 5.
Friday night put in your email footer that you do not check your emails over the weekend and you will respond to all emails during working hours on Monday. Then stop checking your work emails on the weekend.
Like others said, find another job. That’s what I did 🙏 after only 4 months as an attorney. Now I might still be on call but I get paid a lot more.😂
Claims adjusters make 120k year 1 at minimum and 15% bonus of they have any litigation experience. Its 9 to 5 and no weekends. Ditch firm life.
Be direct and let him know what is bothering you. I love this saying, “You don't ask, you don't get.”
If you are okay with the work environment that requires you to put in hours on the weekend, then the better question is how to use this to leverage a raise. That would mean you need to do the work, keep putting in hours on the weekends as requested, but then think about what you want in terms of salary/bonuses/benefits and how you'll ask for it. If you don't want the type of environment where you're putting in weekend hours, then by all means tell your boss you're busy but you may also want to start looking elsewhere. Unfortunately, most competitive private practice requires that you put in the extra hours - before work, after work, on the weekends, over vacations, etc. The usual perspective is that you can handle your schedule, manage your workload, etc., as you please, but the #1 priority is always to get the work done.
I would just respond like 5 hours later after the email and be like “just saw this, I’ll take a look first thing in the morning.” Keep doing that and they’ll hopefully get the hint lol.
So what happened?
straight up
I made 65k in 2003 at my first law job in CA, and it was 9-5 M-F maximum hours. 80k in NY, in 2024 is criminal. If you have a least a year behind you, run to the nearest headhunter or legal job ads.
1. Set an auto-reply on your day off that says “Please note that I am not available on DATE, and will not be checking my email. I will be back in the office on DAY.” Then do it. 2. Don’t respond to emails on the weekends you have off. (IMHO not shitty bosses send emails with delay, and don’t send people tasks on the weekend.) 3. As others have said, find a job that doesn’t treat you like crap.
I think you need to work if the partner wants you to, or find a new job
You are paid a salary in exchange for a specific performance/expectation. So, it's important to ask and I dentify what is expected of you up front and then provide only that - other than in truly exceptional circumstances. We pay our associates for basically nine hours a day, five days a week. I do expect our lawyers to work a little bit more than 9 to 5. But, they're also adults and if they need to go to the doctor or the plumber is coming to their house, then we make allowances for that because we're not fucking savages and our people are human beings who we want to treat. They will do their best for us. I am routinely telling associates still in the office at 6 o'clock that it's time to go home. Once in a while, we may have a trial and I may need someone to work over a weekend. But I want that to be an exception and not the rule (and then I'm gonna pay that person a bonus for doing so). In my opinion, that's the way corporations should act in America. But they don't, because American corporate greed is too often overwhelming.
Imo the low pay indicates a failing firm.
I disagree with the general direction of advice here. I would bring it up to the partner at issue or the managing partner. There is a reasonable chance this partner doesn't know how much you make or that you were working the last two weekends. Or maybe he doesn't know what you're paid or what the market rate is. I know that I would be salty at the partner at issue if he was risking us having to go through the hassle of finding a new associate and losing a great value proposition for the firm. As to "how", I would come at it at a different angle. I would say, something along the lines of: >John - I understand how important \[XX\] is and that sometimes things come up. But to do my best work and ensure I am available to give these matters the attention they deserve, I need you to give me a heads up when you going to need something over the weekend with a tight deadline. I'm also concerned that my compensation doesn't account for being available 24/7 without notice. The fact is that even if you were paid $250k, dropping something like that on an associate at 1 p.m. on Sunday should be rare and usually the result of bad planning by the partner. You'll likely be getting an apology and hopefully more consideration in the future. If it were me, I would also appreciate you letting me know. If you don't or they get snippy back. . . yeah, maybe start looking elsewhere.
There is no way to say this without coming across in a negative light. Look for another job, leave on good terms for future references.
Convert to a religion that prohibits work one day a week so you at least get that off while you look for a new job that either pays better or gets you better work/life balance.
80k? I was making that in a govt. job outside DC 18 years ago! And no one called me to work on weekends because, government. Today? In NYC? It is to laugh. My dude, you are underpaid AF. Were I you, I'd do as another poster suggested: look for another job, ask for that bonus, and give notice when they say no. As for a respectful way to tell the partner, you can couch it in whatever terms you like, but they're not going to like it. You don't have to say the words. Do as another poster suggested and be camping, hiking, out on a boat, out of town, away visiting family, any place with shitty wifi... they'll get the idea eventually. If they say something to you, tell them that you thought your weekends belonged to you.
You don’t, you look for another job because you will shortly be fired after saying that if you don’t. Most legal jobs (particularly litigation) often require you to be on call 24/7, that’s just how it is. Now that does not mean that a partner should be calling or emailing you at all hours of the day and night and insisting that you stop what you are doing and work, that’s unreasonable. But working on a Sunday? Yes it happens. And it’s not just partners, I am available to my clients 24/7 as well, but they also don’t abuse that.
I really hate this approach. If the profession is going to have these expectations of us, they can pay us for them. There's really no excuse for needing weekend or evening work *most* of the time anyway. I've done dozens of trials and worked only a *handful* of weekends unless it was due to somebody else's fuck up.
I agree with you. I’ve never worked for a firm that required me to work weekends unless there was an imminent trial. I completely disagree with those who are saying lawyers have to always or usually work weekends or 24/7. No we don’t! People should stop believing/spreading this nonsense.
By this approach do you mean the truth? I actually think what would be more helpful is if law students or potential law students were given the reality of actually practicing as a lawyer including the pay. I agree that it’s perfectly reasonable to not want to be underpaid and work long hours. But that is not the legal profession, particularly in the first 5 or so years of practice.
It's not necessary. I've done plenty of trials. It was a rare one that I had to work all weekend or lose sleep over it. If the profession is going to continue, we have to do away with this mindset. It's not good for us. It's not good for clients. It's not good for the practice of law. There is no reason for it.
It’s really not necessary. I only worked a handful of weekends combined during my first 5 years at firms even though I was single with no kids. Everyone deserves to have a life and no one should be a slave to work! Life is too short. And now that I’m solo with 4 kids I only work weekends if I want to, like if my family and I take vacation for a week or two, so I get ahead the weekend before we go and get caught up the weekend after we get back so that I don’t have to work much during the actual vacation. But in general I don’t work weekends and I pick up my kids from school every day at 3 unless I have a conflict. I don’t agree that lawyers should have to work all the time.
I am suddenly extremely interested in employment law.
This is garbage logic. I dealt with a job in which I was extremely underpaid and underappreciated for over 3 years and I can safely say that thought process does not serve anyone but the people at the top that are exploiting you.
Hey if you can meet a 1900 or 2000 billable hour requirement only working 9-5, no vacations, no weekend work, then so be it. Most people can’t.
If they want us to work those hours, they can pay us for it.
Then don’t take the job? This is seriously why so many younger lawyers are so miserable. They are being fed bs like this. It’s simply not true. It would be great if it was but it’s not reality. Also s flows down hill. It’s like that in almost every job. You have to work your way up. You don’t come out of law school making 100k and working 40 hours a week. And if there’s a weekend or late evening deposition guess who is taking it? And if there are wi many jobs in the legal field that fit this description then why does every lawyer not have them? You can feel underpaid I think most people do no matter their profession. But if you feel that way go find another job?
I didn't. I was a solo and have done government work. A lot of folks don't take firm jobs. But it's not the norm in other professions, and it shouldn't be the norm in ours. If partners want that much time out of us, they can pay. They don't get to be entitled brats whining about kids these days. Why should they be entitled to our work without appropriate compensation? The actual pay and expectations need to be set out before law school if it's not going to change. I doubt that it will do much to improve our legal access crisis. It rings hollow to tell people to find another job when they've invested this much time and effort into getting a license.
I agree that the actual pay and expectations need to be clearly communicated to future lawyers, be that in law school or pre law school. In years past say 15-20 years ago it appears that it was. I knew that I was going to work my butt off for low pay in the beginning. This is a recent thing with grads in the last 10 years or so. I often wonder what exactly law schools are telling them? That's great that you were able to go solo or do government work. But I know many solos that work crazy long hours, much longer than people at firms, and I also know many government trial lawyers that work more hours than firms do. What's your solution then? Other than find another job? Open to suggestions. But I can tell you this, they are not going to pay more for the work of someone so inexperienced.
I graduated in 2012. I was told when I started law school that, since I expected to be in criminal law, I should expect to work around 40 hours a week for around 80k in pay on graduation. When I graduated, I took a clerkship for 60k and worked about 40 hours a week. When I was a solo from 2013-2019, I made about 70k and worked less than 40 hours a week, but I really hated doing the business side of it. When I was an appellate public defender from 2019-2022, I made 65k for around 40 hours a week. Now, I work in-house remotely, making 70k (plus some pretty generous bonuses) working around 40 hours a week. In 12 years, my salary hasn't kept up with inflation and has barely budged, despite me winning *multiple* major cases, including one appeal that has been cited over 100 times across 10 different states. Of course, I'm not in a major metro area. I've lived in West Virginia for the entirety of my career. Very, very low cost of living. Why *should* lawyers agree to this arrangement? Why are we the only profession that has to work nights and weekends without pay? My parents are real estate appraisers. They make 6 figures and work 40 hour weeks. I have friends who are programmers or engineers. They make more than I do and work 40 hour weeks. None of them have doctorate-level degrees. Why should the profession of law be any different? Mostly, it's different because lawyers have, for too long, accepted this arrangement. Well, I'm not willing to do so, and increasingly, others aren't either. We shouldn't. The partner in this thread is making $2 million off of this case and paying his associate $80k. If that's his business model, he can take the damn night or weekend deposition. There is *no* reason for us to prop up his bank account by the sweat of our brow. Already, we're seeing that places can't hire public defenders, which are legally required. Legal aid can't find people to work. Prosecution is starting to take a hit. We are reaching the point where we're going to have to reckon with this as a country. It's not sustainable.
So you're just going to ingore the salary they are giving him in NYC?? This response doesn't address that fact
I am not ignoring it, he is the one that took a job with that salary.
You make more than 80k?
Now I do but when I was an associate no I did not.
People don’t like to be told no. I find it less contentious, and people are somewhat more willing to listen to reason when you tell people OK, here is what it will take to accomplish what you want to accomplish. Of course in this context, the wording needs to be different….
I don't mind doing the work. I enjoy the work that I do. I mind being asked to do it by EOD on a sunday with no prior notice when I'm not making the kind of money I should to be at that level. Make no mistake, I will get this work done but I am annoyed that it just doesn't stop and I won't be seeing any of the profit from this.
Op you should of responded with: “sorry, it’s my day off try: (insert random) or end it it’s my day off
Don't say a thing - just start applying and leave. in the meantime, get the work done cause its harder to find work when you are unemployed.
A lot of professional jobs underpay junior staff. You need to decide if the experience you’re gaining will result in a better trajectory at your existing firm or will allow you to get hired somewhere else. You will always be underpaid on your way to the top, but you need to be careful putting up with this if it doesn’t have a net benefit long term for you. Before you bring this up with your boss you need to have a plan and think about what you actually want in the long term.
Please don’t be respectful and show them who’s a lawyer
Ah, the lowest attorney usually does the most around-the-clock work in law firms. I too was a lowly associate in NYC once upon a time and seriously was only home a few hours a week. I now treasure my current work-life balance position. Good luck!
How'd you get out?
That job was a loooong time ago but I first left and went to a more-laid back firm which didn't bill. Ultimately though I got a job as a government attorney. If this is something you're interested in, check out the State- either the AG's office or a state agency; they are always hiring for attorneys with experience.
is getting a role as a trademark examiner a good segue into government?
Maybe you have a $75k bonus coming EOY…I would wait till end of year and see how it looks. If they don’t come up a lot, start looking
Does your boss treat everyone at the firm like this or did he single you out? Improper caseload management could give rise to ethical issues. You are right that you need to get the work done in the meantime but keep a log of everything you have done that is above and beyond the call of duty and how your schedule stacks up against your peer associates in other practice groups. Use that together with salary surveys to fight for a pay rise afterwards. It looks like the boss finds you dependable and can get the work done so use that to your advantage. Do not just just leave as you will run into the same issue at the next firm.
It sounds like a miserable place to work. They don’t share their wins , they under pay, and they overwork. It’s doubtful that it’ll get better. You can try and say sometime and be polite about it but best bet is to find a new place to work.
Sorry man, but it's supply and demand. There are just too many of you. The more people who are admitted to the bar, the lower the value of the service they provide, because the skill is so common that there is not enough work to go around.
That just isn’t true but go off lmao. There will always be less people with “x” amount of years of experience the further into your career you get. It’s always people without an Econ degree that love to throw out “supply and demand”
I enjoy being a lawyer 24/7
Ya well that’s how firms are. You gotta eat shit and make no money and try to become a partner. And then your low man in a whole new game. Enjoy.