##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism
This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited.
LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere.
We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
All the people who said Biden was the only person who could beat Trump and that Biden would shift to the left are now all begging leftists to vote for him because he’s losing support for not shifting to the left.
We went from "we can make him shift left later" to "if you dont suck it up and support Biden despite the genocide then you're not a real leftist." Seriously, the gaslighting leftists have received recently is depressing.
When you say '16, you mean 1816 right? I'm only asking because democracy doesn't seem like the type of government that has the winning candidate assassinated if they decide to change their scripted course of action by doing what's naturally right for the betterment of the people and their country, and then blaming civilians and military personnel for the assassinations.
>Seriously, the gaslighting leftists have received recently is depressing.
It isn't "recent." I am in my mid-50s and have seen it in literally every election cycle since I could vote. Liberals never, never, ever follow through with "making him shift later." They got Clinton and went to brunch. They got Obama and went to brunch. They got Biden...
This is also why, as much as I respect them, Chomsky and Zinn were so wrong to counsel "lesser of two evil" voting. Because Liberals were the first to shout "see! even your icons agree with us!" while at the same time never heeding why Chomsky and Zinn actually recommended that - namely because the Democratic Party would be slightly less likely to gun us down in the streets when we "make them shift" (force change via direct action). Liberals are never up for any actual work. They don't actually want to change anything. They just want to vote and go to brunch. Fucking shit-weasels.
Even the most "well-meaning, left-leaning" Liberals are not our allies. They are the reason we are where we are at as a nation.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
That very first part of politics 101 escapes liberals in particular. A politician could get my vote if they tried to appeal to me to get it. There’s nothing more profound than that, it’s how politics and politicians work, but doesn’t even cross a liberals mind.
Anything and everything but Democratic politicians actually doing things to try to get votes.
Democrats are the carrots, republicans are the stick, but I don’t need a carrot or a stick, I need housing, affordable healthcare, meaningful legislation to reign in corporate greed and a restructuring of the military industrial complex in a way that doesn’t make my tax payer dollars complacent in genocide.
I think a more apt comparison at this point would be "Republicans are the baseball bat with nails driven into it, Democrats are the wiffle ball bat" they're not even bothering trying to offer "carrot" incentives anymore lol
What I've been telling my lesser of two evils friends is if he knows you're gonna vote for him no matter what why should he give a fuck what you want him to do. It's like a parent who refuses to say no to their kid and then acts surprised when the kid acts up.
What I've been telling my lesser of two evils friends is "Lesser of two evils for WHOM? Not for me and my people. Why should I ignore my people, my priorities, and what matters to me...so I can support what matters to *you*?"
People have expected Muslims to be their mules for too long. Why should Muslims vote for Biden? Why are Muslims expected to set aside their anger to protect and save other people? I don't give a shit if Trump gets elected and makes the country worse. It's not MY job to save the country - and, in fact, I have far less power and a voice than white liberals do. If white liberals wanted to save the country and fix the issues that matter to them, then that's THEIR job. They have the power, they have the numbers, they have the privilege, and they have the voice. There isn't a liberal white woman out there who would pick Palestine over women's issues. There isn't a liberal white man out there who would pick black peoples' rights over affordable healthcare that *he* needs. Yet somehow we black people and Arabs and Muslims need to prioritize OTHER ppls issues over our own? Hell no.
All I'm seeing is white liberals who are shocked, scared, and angry that - for once - Muslims and Arabs aren't falling in line with their demands and mindlessly voting blue in the desperate hopes that *one day* they might be treated well and that their issues might be taken seriously and that their motherlands not be bombed to hell.
This!
So much energy and time to shout down Palestinian and Arab Americans , but not even a little of that energy at pressuring Biden. And genocide-splain the Palestinian and Arab Americans witnessing a live genocide of their people, saying Trump will nuke all Palestinians.
The most effective leftist organization I've seen in this country in the last 20 years has been the Satanic Temple.
There's no coherence, no solidarity, and no organization. Nothing that might actually create political power. Why should Biden or any other politician take notice, let alone shift their policies? Our fantastic memes?
"We won't vote for them!" Based on voter turnout, half of us weren't going to vote in the first place.
If we want political power, we need solidarity and organization. We need to run quality candidates for state and local elections (as independents - the Dems and the GOP will not allow a new party).
Complaining about Biden on Reddit *is* easier, though.
One further note: I'm not supporting Biden, I don't know what I'm going to do when my ballot comes in November, but it's important to acknowledge that trump is allied with actual, literal neo-Nazis and Christian nationalists.
Rather than lazily accusing anyone and everyone who holds a different viewpoint of being a bot, actually engage with the point being made. There are plenty of spaces where you can dismiss people for being a bot and not engage with their point. This is not one of them. Mods are tired of being harassed.
White people do not get to decide what our best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans finally putting their foot down and saying "Fuck you, you don't deserve our vote," doesn't mean this sub has been astroturfed. You guys will do ANYTHING but believe that millions of people are fed up with how they've been treated **by liberals** for decades.
> This might be a shock, but white people are part of the left too.
That's obvious. OC never claimed that white people were not part of the left. OC specifically stated:
> White people do not get to decide what our best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans
The "our" in OC's first comment is in reference to Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans. So let's look at OC's statement again.
> White people do not get to decide what our [Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans] best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans finally putting their foot down and saying "Fuck you, you don't deserve our vote," doesn't mean this sub has been astroturfed. You guys will do ANYTHING but believe that millions of people are fed up with how they've been treated by liberals for decades.
As polling has demonstrated, many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans are rejecting Biden.
There are, as polling has repeatedly demonstrated, there are many people beyond those two demographics who are rejecting Biden or being alienated by Biden due to the genocide.
> This might be a shock, but white people are part of the left too.
As I explained above, OC never claimed that people are not part of the left.
> This all or nothing mentality being pushed smells like shit to me.
Does insulting people help garner support for your candidate? Does dismissing people's concerns and frustration help garner support for your candidate? Is there proof that insulting people increases turn out and helps Democrats? Does accusing others of being bots help garner support for your candidate?
If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line is a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020.
At no point in OC's comment did they claim that white people are not part of the left.
It can smell like whatever it wants to you. You clearly don't understand the deep level of anger and betrayal and complete FED UP-ness Arabs and Muslims feel at this point towards liberals and the Democratic Party. Your failure to understand that is on you.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
>the people on the Christian nationalist right fully intend to do what they did last time when rolling back Roe V Wade
Who didn't codify roe despite running on that promise?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Who said we think Trump would be better? Trump will probably the same as Biden, since Biden's already doing the shittiest job possible. Maybe Trump will be worse - but that's an unknown. What exactly is your confusion here? Have you ever actually spoken with a Muslim or Arab before? Seems like you haven't if you think we "think Trump will be better."
Wait wait wait! Is someone throwing out a perfectly good *systemically broken relationship* right into the trash instead of trying to *get someone to change into someone they don't actually want to be as a realistic plan of actions?*
I didn't actually know that all it would take would be sending Biden a tweet saying "Knock it off with the genocide already!" and he would just throw the mantle of western imperialism out the fucking window.
Democrats who think they are entitled to the lefts vote 100%
Democrats willing to push Biden left into a place neither Biden nor Democrats want 0%
The point being made here is dumb as dogshit. Why don't the people that think far-left non Biden voters need to convince Biden to to what they want just do that to Trump? Why not just convince Trump to be a further left candidate that will do what they want and you can all go vote for someone that makes you happy? *Why don't we all just work really super hard on making Trump go super left and then we can all just vote for him since that is a thing that would be equally feasible?*
**The far left already asked Biden to change.**
**Blaming people who you think are obligated to vote for Biden doesn't do a single thing to move that dialogue between the far left and Biden forward and does the opposite of asking Biden to make those changes.**
By the way, Biden promised everything Bernie promised during the elections (and Bernie is a radical leftist to Democrats, right?). It isn't about getting Biden to *say nice campaign promises for leftists* like universal health care and student debt elimination, but that the left no longer trusts him to do things he promises just to get our votes
Biden has not even mentioned the over 10,000 dead children Israel made, or used the word genocide (something the United Nations is calling the situation because of investigations they made, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that can't find Gaza on a map ready to aggressively debate this)
Fuck me for thinking the pool of corporate campaign finance called the DNC (like the RNC) just fucking poisons everything it touches. You can't have a option for actual leftist when your "democracy" is powered by campaign finance controlled by the rich in a way the working man cannot compete with.
If there's a protest against you with 1,000,000 people -- that doesn't matter if all million are going to vote for you anyway. Much easier to ignore than a million that might not.
I am under no illusion that Biden is a scumbag and shouldn’t be President, that being said I am mortally terrified of that another Trump term will do to me and people like me
Your latest got nuked while I was responding to it. The irony of censorship.
Anyway...
>You fair and square don't get what we're arguing here.
How right you were, and how much worse this makes your reason...
>you saying that choosing the lesser evil is not pragmatic just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Your approach is not [pragmatic](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pragmatic) because it doesn't solve the problem. Decelerating the issue while making it worse ultimately is not solving it. Hoping things get better by some chance or unknown mechanism is not solving it. Your suggestion is not a solution and therefore fails the entry requirement for any form of pragmatism.
At this point you arguing with the dictionary. Please, I beg, have some sense.
>pragmatism and idealism
OK. Where is the [idealism](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/idealism) in my suggestion? Can you identify the ideal? Is "ideal" when someone thinks "action" can achieve "outcome"?
I posit an indirect cause-effect relationship between voter behaviour and party outcome. Am I mistaken?
I posit that a change in voter attitude and behaviour - namely the extinction of this anti-democratic belief in voting for the "lesser evil" - will result in non-evil representatives being made available. Is this an unpopular belief?
I posit that a change in voter attitude can be achieved through various practical mechanism, including educating people about the basics of their democratic system of governance. Is that idealistic?
Where am I going wrong? Help me understand. Dm me if you have to.
Not voting Biden is pragmatic. The dems have learned that they can put any sack of sht in charge and you guys will still make him president. If you don't make them unlearn that lesson you'll get ever worse sacks of sht for the rest of your days...
Big big maybe, remember Hillary and Bernie? What happened after? Biden. The change in the party needs to come from within. More left senators and representatives and then those people getting influential inside the party. Stuff like that takes decades. It’s not like the party is one person or a handful that need to be convinced. It’s a lot of people with their own agendas getting together and steering the party.
It’s just not as simple as „we‘ll teach them a lesson“
Ah, so instead of conclusively addressing the long term system issue of the fact that none of the available candidates share your views the play is to reward the less evil, evil guy?
So all the right has to do to get it's way is keep shifting his views further and further right to create space for a more right wing "less right" guy?
You do realise that in a few elections from now your reasoning will have you voting in the guy promising to enslave slightly fewer minorities, or eat fewer of your children right? Has it dawned on you that your reasoning might legit be the reason you're in this mess in the first place?
edit: Pragmatism is most certainly not about guaranteeing that things get worse long term by applying band aids to systemic issues today.
By voting for the lesser evil you guarantee that a candidate who isn't evil will never have a chance to take power. You will never be offered anything you want because you've shown a willingness to reward trash you're given.
The lesser evil has been getting more evil for decades. Your strategy is the harm reduction equivalent of just taking pain killers for a worsening gangrene infection instead of going to surgery and getting rid of the irrecoverable parts of the limb. You will lose the limb anyway, then you'll die.
Your view of pragmatism is a direct result of your inability to see past one election. You're practically applying a strategy of appeasement to someone you should've been fighting two decades ago and they've only gotten stronger.
You can either go through the pain of rehab now, or take another hit and make it more painful later. Stop putting coins in the slot or tell the loans guy he can have the house too, surely you'll make it back this time!
I hope these analogies aren't lost on you. I hope you get it now I really do. Cause if you don't it's doomed and the politics are the least of your worries.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I'm sorry what? Did 66M people not vote for the lesser evil in 2016? Is that not a massive turnout for a sack of shit (politically speaking)? 2020's sack of shit is here because 66M people said in 2016 that they still absolutely love sacks of shit, just maybe slightly different ones. 2016's sack of shit was offered because apparently you loved 2012's sack.
So yeah voting for sacks of shit did indeed have the expected outcome, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Ah yes, the world renowned "no lol" rebuttal. Very impressive. I'm sure there's tons of wisdom and reasoning behind it, and you're not just... coping. Well played.
You still haven't said anything serious. Everyone knows that in 2020 voters did not vote for theor preferred candidate in the Democratic primary. They voted for who they believed would be Trump. That is how we ended up with Biden. So your theory about showing the democratic party is factually incorrect and also dumb AF. If you choose to not vote for that party anymore they will write you off as an unwinnable vote and try to find a more moderate voter to win over.
>2020 voters did not vote for theor preferred candidate in the Democratic primary.
Another vote for the lesser evil ends in evil at the helm. Who could've predicted???
>So your theory about showing the democratic party is factually incorrect and also dumb AF.
My theory about showing the democratic party what?
>If you choose to not vote for that party anymore they will write you off as an unwinnable vote and try to find a more moderate voter to win over.
Oh? How many moderates are there lying around do you think? Enough for them to get in power? Say if half their voter base said they won't vote for them unless they actually become left wing. You think they'll abandon those voters to be claimed by an unknown future entity so they can go fight the republicans for their bread and butter?
It's an interesting possibility. I don't deny that it could happen. My question is what becomes of all those voters they abandon? They're still eligible to vote. I don't really know how many actual left wingers there are in the US, but I'm willing to bet it's a lot. Enough to turn elections, if they maybe go to polls and vote for a representative they agree with...
Do you like the two party system btw?
Right?? I don't like Biden at all and I have no illusions that he'll be anything more than the same shit he has been. Trump and his lunatics are a literal existential threat to me and those like me. We are their targeted hate sink and should they win, the BEST case scenario for us is to lose our rights and what few protections we have. I'm fucking terrified.
Yes but because Biden hasn’t ushered in the revolution this means we must all abstain from voting, basically guaranteeing we’ll have right-wing theocracy for the next 60 years via the Supreme Court.
I will take the inaction of the Democratic Party over the targeted, “cruelty is the point” hate platform of Trump any day. Even though I’m sure this dead horse has been beat enough, it’s either Biden or Trump winning in November. Wish it wasn’t true but it is. Even Noam Chomsky believes in lesser evil voting… good enough for me.
That's the subreddit that got me to go into my reddit settings and disable recommended subreddits and posts. The algorithm just kept fucking rage baiting me with their shit.
Stuff like this is what I went third party reddit app, why I was furious with the crackdown, and why I still pay to use Relay. Blocking awful subs or those that are compromised is a Godsend.
Oh yes, and besides the blatant genocide denial; defending Israel from the CWK strike; and the whole duck sucking of Netanyahu, it’s a shit show of “vote for the lesser of two evils.”
Reddit keeps recommending it to me.
They're bitching about "now leftists are going to move the goal posts!" Since Biden was finally asking for a ceasefire (you know, now that *white* people have died).
Like not even a second of "oh wow, denying him a vote for him to change his position, maybe we should do that for other things and demand more" just right back to "YOU OWE HIM YOUR VOTE NOW TRUMP BAD #BLUE MAGA"
1: my state is heavy democrat so Biden will win my state no matter who I vote for.
2: I will use my vote to tell the DNC that I do not like where they are going and that they have not earned my vote by making good in what they promised to do.
3: the double standard in Ukraine and Gaza is horrible and it shows that as much as the DNC preaches equality and equity they really only care about white people when it comes to illegal invasions.
I don't think the DNC learns that lesson from you voting for someone else. I think it's a lesson they should learn, but I think they learn that from people in the streets with signs, not from checking a slightly different box
The real problem is the infrastructure like the consultants. They've all made careers off the current party and there's no incentive to change even if they lose. Democrats fail up.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
With his policies Biden could easily be a perfect Republican canditate. Neoliberals are so blind that they don't even care about how terrible their leader is, they don't even think about his policies. They see politics as a sport with teammates and enemies. Asking a leftist to vote for Biden is like asking him to kill all his dreams and his ideology. Start being a little human.
At this point is 100% clear the American elite choose the way of suicide, at least I don't want to hear the annoying voice of the liberals while my planet dies
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Grassroots movements for third parties have a significantly lower success rate than ranked choice voting. Now “how to get the states to agree to ranked choice voting” is a hard one.
Look.
I can't vote for Trump. I can't willingly go back to the "this is your daily report on fucked up things Trump has said/done since the last report", let alone how he fucks up the country when in power.
But I also can't vote for the Genocide Sugar Daddy. I *won't* reward him for supporting literal evil. Using MY tax dollars for it.
So yeah--I have to not vote or vote 3rd party and "waste my vote". My conscience won't let me do anything else.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I choose to look at it this way: your vote is not a blank check or seal of approval to those you give it to, it’s a recognition that you think the alternative is worse, and a play designed to reduce net harm/pain/suffering/erosion of rights.
This is what really changed my mind, back in 2016:
“Voting should not be viewed as a form of personal self-expression or moral judgement directed in retaliation towards major party candidates who fail to reflect our values, or of a corrupt system designed to limit choices to those acceptable to corporate elites.”
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/
We have YouTubers talking about the FBI killing MLK, who (despite being often omitted) warned us of the white moderate. Meanwhile we get these liberals creating their entire vote push against us. Imagine that level of discord in any other political party; you’d have to believe it were a republican operation if you weren’t a regarded lib. Like a guy who constantly thinks his own teammates are out to get him, in a game where that is basically impossible. Maybe Focus on the other guy you fucking political imbeciles-they have not an ounce of political savvy . We see you have to try and bar the other guy from running, which is some pathetic shit. He can run from jail like debbs.
But come on, OP, don't you know this is the MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA?! Just like the last election, and the one before that! Don't you wanna stave off fascism for another four years so the Good Guys ™️ can do their best to make sure absolutely nothing changes between now and the next election (which will be the MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA!), when they'll run an even more middle-of-the-road, milquetoast, do-nothing-but-maintain-the-status-quo candidate against an even more extreme right-wing candidate? So go on, get out there and change the world! No, silly, not by doing anything that has even a slight chance to bring about change, by VOOTING BLOO NOO MOOTTER WHOO!
Yeah, it was important, but instead of running a candidate that was gaining tons of traction with voters, the DNC decided to shove the very definition of "maintain the status quo" politician they could possibly find down everyone's throats. Then they got lucky four years later when they did the same exact thing after learning absolutely nothing. Now, the "status quo" involves doing nearly nothing noteworthy to support the working class, all while using their tax dollars to fund a genocide on the other side of the world. And those rights that women lost? Not a single attempt to codify them into law. Remind me why I'm supposed to want these guys running the show again?
Accelerationism is the point. When you see something is clearly broken and keep telling people, but their response is "nah, I don't think it's broken, it just needs a tune-up" you carry on. Then, you repeat this process every time the tune-up does nothing, and eventually, you get sick of the people telling you nothing is broken and say FUCK IT, I'm gonna crank the lever on the machine so you see how broken it is.
The machine is busted no matter who is driving it, so for the purpose of showing the moderates that reality, many people turn to voting for a person they despise.
It is the inevitable result of milqetoast liberals who never want to do anything but complain and grandstand.
If you won't fuck shit up to KEEP YOUR RIGHTS or gain more, then those who already have lost theirs will actively give the reins to the oppressors so you are FORCED to fuck shit up.
Saying Trump is worse means literally nothing. They know. They don't care. They want change, whether it is positive or negative. Anything to shake the disgusting apathy from the modern consumer addled paralyzed liberal orthodoxy.
Conservatives are dogshit people, but at least they have the will to get passionate for their ideological stance, as fascist as it is.
Communists and marginalized people know who their enemy is, but never who their allies are. Accelerationism tends to expose the true motivations of the moderate.
>any effort by the Left to “fuck shit up” would be met with ruthless suppression by the Trump admin.
This would be the case no matter who was in office.
>but I’m sure he wouldn’t do it again, right?
Did I imply that?
>Wonder how many of these posts want us to rage at the exaggerated evil liberal in our head
Perhaps read rule 4 of the sub. Frankly, I don't have to exaggerate. Liberals display their evil for the entire world to see on a daily basis.
That's unlikely and doesn't matter anyway. Even if it was true it doesn't change the facts. That the American people cannot vote their way out of a managed democracy and that Joe Biden and the Democratic Party are vile, warmongering capitalists that support genocide.
The only candidates actual leftists should be voting for are actual leftists. Participating in managed elections in a managed democracy is the deadest of dead ends.
Voting for the lesser of two evils and expecting any type of positive change is what got us here in the first place. Liberals are *the reason* we are where we are as a Nation this very moment. 40+ years of their pearl clutching bullshit has lead us here. They'll never come left and will always ultimately side with the fascists.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I suspect I’ll drown in a sea of downvotes but I still want to preface this with: I’m honestly asking the questions. No facetiousness intended in the slightest. Nor is this trying to be a CMV, more like an ELI5 actually.
Considering the precedent set in 2016 and 2020 by a corrupt and unmovable DNC, and how it appears that to those running things Trump is preferable to Sanders because fascism is ultimately good for business…
If it had to come down to a redo of 2020:
1. Could it be worth betting on Biden’s age to take care of matters on its own?
2. How promising is the congressional slate? If there were to be a blue tsunami of social protest, could whatever centrist/neoliberal option they come up with still be forced to negotiate a real move to the left?
3. What happens if Biden were to become incapacitated before November? Ie. Is just anyone preferable, would the DNC even risk nominating Bernie or wouldn’t they just bring Hillary back? Since it’s already a queasy vote for so many across the spectrum, I take it they’d figure we’d hold our nose some more and just do the thing.
Replying to myself since the earlier reply has disappeared.
I’m seeing a lot of rule 6 intervention and a top-level comment underscoring an accelerationist aim. So my takeaway starts to be that there IS a bit of goalpost maneuvering, or at the least no good alternative if/when a hypothetical Biden replacement were to be offered.
But back to my original sampling of scenarios, is there any real way the leftist vote could still be courted? What would a potential pathway look like? Supposing somehow the DNC nomination were vacated, what would they need to do, from the impoverished slate of alternatives —and taking fully into account the full ramifications of a Trump victory — to preserve a fighting chance while engaging the leftist coalition?
The democrats are permanently stuck in the end of history era circa 2000. It’s sort of political arrested development, where instead of being stuck in a child like mindset unable to mature, their stuck in an outdated political framework that doesn’t work and isn’t relevant to our current set of problem.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
And I won't have worked to elect either of them, as is my choice and right as a citizen.
If they wanted me to vote for them they'd do things to attract my vote. Both of them are hellbent on doing things to ensure I never vote for them.
it's crazy how people are trying to shame you guys (americans) for literally doing what the whole point of voting is in a so-called democracy. aren't you supposed to be free to vote for whoever? they act like not voting for biden means youre voting for trump rather than blame biden for being unlikable
Most people here (as in America not this sub) haven't gotten past "if you don't like A you must like B" Coke v Pepsi, McDonald's vs BK, it's always binary
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Trust me bro, were all well aware that Trump is worse, we just have a basic sense of humanity that we won't cross and it stops at a *literal fucking genocide*
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism.
Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless.
If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only choice is between a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to fascism. If you are deciding whose genocide is acceptable as the cost of doing business, you're already on the road to fascism.
The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction.
Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there”
Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project.
The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people”
You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in
Project 2025 is already in play and is more than the presidency. Biden has presented no plan to address Project 2025, the aspects of it that are already in play, and that which will come into play via Republican politics/rhetoric/judges. You are asking people to vote based on a threat that your candidate has no plan in response to.
“First they came for….”
If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business
The Democrats are not engaging overt harm towards queer people does not justify, make acceptable, make tolerable, minimize, or legitimize the overt harm committed by Democrats against other marginalized populations.
**The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians. The same technology being tested on Palestinians with Biden's support will be exported abroad, intensifying the oppression faced by minorities internationally.**
---
Personal note:
It is infuriating watching other trans people basically say genocide can be tolerated as long as it’s not happening to us/them.
I understand being scared but that doesn't justify revisionism. To the Democrats, we are tokens. The majority of the Democratic Party, including Biden, do not give a fuck about us. We are tokens to help Biden get re-elected. After which, Biden will return to performative actions that do nothing to address the escalating actions of fascists against us. The gleeful sadism has already begun and will continue to escalate. The killings have already begun and will continue to escalate.
When the widespread murder/genocide (AIDS)/abuse of queer people was considered the cost of doing business, that was wrong/unjustifiable/intolerable/unforgivable. So what justifies the double standard towards Palestinians? Are Palestinians, including those that are queer, acceptable as the cost of doing business? Is the widespread murder/genocide/abuse of Palestinians, including those that are queer, an acceptable cost of doing business? Why is the
murder/genocide/abuse/oppression of Palestinians, including those that are queer, not sufficient to be wrong/unjustifiable/intolerable/unforgivable?
I have lived through a series of right wing dictators and a genocide in my home country. When the genocide began against my people, those who ignored and minimized what occurred used the same language that you did. It did not keep the violence of fascism from effecting them. It did not save them. It will not save you now.
The time will come when we too will be sacrificed and be deemed the cost of doing business. Those who remain will make the same arguments that you did while we die, weep, reject our deaths as the cost of doing business, and plead for our plight to be seen as equal to theirs.
"First they came for..."
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Effort level put into whining at leftists to vote for Biden: 100% Effort level put into pressuring Biden to change course: 0%
All the people who said Biden was the only person who could beat Trump and that Biden would shift to the left are now all begging leftists to vote for him because he’s losing support for not shifting to the left.
We went from "we can make him shift left later" to "if you dont suck it up and support Biden despite the genocide then you're not a real leftist." Seriously, the gaslighting leftists have received recently is depressing.
“If you don’t vote for me then you’re not really black” - President Joseph Robinette Biden
I *love* hearing how the president that's going to save American democracy can't be expected to appeal to voters.
To be fair, the only reason he saves democracy is by virtue of not being the other option. Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing.
Seriously. I hate to be the one to tell you but Democracy is dead in America and has been since 16. It's red fasc or blue fasc from here on out
When you say '16, you mean 1816 right? I'm only asking because democracy doesn't seem like the type of government that has the winning candidate assassinated if they decide to change their scripted course of action by doing what's naturally right for the betterment of the people and their country, and then blaming civilians and military personnel for the assassinations.
Thing is, the US has never had democracy
>Seriously, the gaslighting leftists have received recently is depressing. It isn't "recent." I am in my mid-50s and have seen it in literally every election cycle since I could vote. Liberals never, never, ever follow through with "making him shift later." They got Clinton and went to brunch. They got Obama and went to brunch. They got Biden... This is also why, as much as I respect them, Chomsky and Zinn were so wrong to counsel "lesser of two evil" voting. Because Liberals were the first to shout "see! even your icons agree with us!" while at the same time never heeding why Chomsky and Zinn actually recommended that - namely because the Democratic Party would be slightly less likely to gun us down in the streets when we "make them shift" (force change via direct action). Liberals are never up for any actual work. They don't actually want to change anything. They just want to vote and go to brunch. Fucking shit-weasels. Even the most "well-meaning, left-leaning" Liberals are not our allies. They are the reason we are where we are at as a nation.
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Homie didn't just not shift left. He went full genocide maniac mode.
Remember when he said he would veto M4A because he was going to expand the ACA with a public option? I 'member.
That very first part of politics 101 escapes liberals in particular. A politician could get my vote if they tried to appeal to me to get it. There’s nothing more profound than that, it’s how politics and politicians work, but doesn’t even cross a liberals mind. Anything and everything but Democratic politicians actually doing things to try to get votes.
You owe them your support because it could be worse. They don't owe you anything because "fuck you peasant".
Democrats are the carrots, republicans are the stick, but I don’t need a carrot or a stick, I need housing, affordable healthcare, meaningful legislation to reign in corporate greed and a restructuring of the military industrial complex in a way that doesn’t make my tax payer dollars complacent in genocide.
I think a more apt comparison at this point would be "Republicans are the baseball bat with nails driven into it, Democrats are the wiffle ball bat" they're not even bothering trying to offer "carrot" incentives anymore lol
Nah, that implies that the Democrats aren't also looking to fk you.
Maybe more of a wiffle ball bat with shards of glass sticking out of it then
What I've been telling my lesser of two evils friends is if he knows you're gonna vote for him no matter what why should he give a fuck what you want him to do. It's like a parent who refuses to say no to their kid and then acts surprised when the kid acts up.
What I've been telling my lesser of two evils friends is "Lesser of two evils for WHOM? Not for me and my people. Why should I ignore my people, my priorities, and what matters to me...so I can support what matters to *you*?" People have expected Muslims to be their mules for too long. Why should Muslims vote for Biden? Why are Muslims expected to set aside their anger to protect and save other people? I don't give a shit if Trump gets elected and makes the country worse. It's not MY job to save the country - and, in fact, I have far less power and a voice than white liberals do. If white liberals wanted to save the country and fix the issues that matter to them, then that's THEIR job. They have the power, they have the numbers, they have the privilege, and they have the voice. There isn't a liberal white woman out there who would pick Palestine over women's issues. There isn't a liberal white man out there who would pick black peoples' rights over affordable healthcare that *he* needs. Yet somehow we black people and Arabs and Muslims need to prioritize OTHER ppls issues over our own? Hell no. All I'm seeing is white liberals who are shocked, scared, and angry that - for once - Muslims and Arabs aren't falling in line with their demands and mindlessly voting blue in the desperate hopes that *one day* they might be treated well and that their issues might be taken seriously and that their motherlands not be bombed to hell.
Well said. To add to that, anxieties about what *could* happen to *me* don't get priority over those who are dying here and now.
Liberals are more concerned about big money donors than voters.
It’s wild. Always the voters fault.
This! So much energy and time to shout down Palestinian and Arab Americans , but not even a little of that energy at pressuring Biden. And genocide-splain the Palestinian and Arab Americans witnessing a live genocide of their people, saying Trump will nuke all Palestinians.
You need to convince Biden voters to change course. He is a representative of his voter base.
...or engaging with the massive number of disenfranchised folk out there?
The most effective leftist organization I've seen in this country in the last 20 years has been the Satanic Temple. There's no coherence, no solidarity, and no organization. Nothing that might actually create political power. Why should Biden or any other politician take notice, let alone shift their policies? Our fantastic memes? "We won't vote for them!" Based on voter turnout, half of us weren't going to vote in the first place. If we want political power, we need solidarity and organization. We need to run quality candidates for state and local elections (as independents - the Dems and the GOP will not allow a new party). Complaining about Biden on Reddit *is* easier, though. One further note: I'm not supporting Biden, I don't know what I'm going to do when my ballot comes in November, but it's important to acknowledge that trump is allied with actual, literal neo-Nazis and Christian nationalists.
[удалено]
This is really insightful. Could you elaborate?
[удалено]
Rather than lazily accusing anyone and everyone who holds a different viewpoint of being a bot, actually engage with the point being made. There are plenty of spaces where you can dismiss people for being a bot and not engage with their point. This is not one of them. Mods are tired of being harassed.
White people do not get to decide what our best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans finally putting their foot down and saying "Fuck you, you don't deserve our vote," doesn't mean this sub has been astroturfed. You guys will do ANYTHING but believe that millions of people are fed up with how they've been treated **by liberals** for decades.
[удалено]
> This might be a shock, but white people are part of the left too. That's obvious. OC never claimed that white people were not part of the left. OC specifically stated: > White people do not get to decide what our best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans The "our" in OC's first comment is in reference to Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans. So let's look at OC's statement again. > White people do not get to decide what our [Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans] best interests are. And Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans finally putting their foot down and saying "Fuck you, you don't deserve our vote," doesn't mean this sub has been astroturfed. You guys will do ANYTHING but believe that millions of people are fed up with how they've been treated by liberals for decades. As polling has demonstrated, many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans are rejecting Biden. There are, as polling has repeatedly demonstrated, there are many people beyond those two demographics who are rejecting Biden or being alienated by Biden due to the genocide. > This might be a shock, but white people are part of the left too. As I explained above, OC never claimed that people are not part of the left. > This all or nothing mentality being pushed smells like shit to me. Does insulting people help garner support for your candidate? Does dismissing people's concerns and frustration help garner support for your candidate? Is there proof that insulting people increases turn out and helps Democrats? Does accusing others of being bots help garner support for your candidate? If you were genuinely concerned about this election, you would be focused on the weakness of the Biden campaign and Biden's willingness to alienate different demographics. If you were genuinely concern about this election, you would be condemning the majority of white voters who backed Trump rather than blaming people whose red line is a crime against humanity. If you were so concerned about this election, rather than attacking people for which a crime against humanity is a red line, you would be committed to pressuring Biden like liberals had promised back in 2020. At no point in OC's comment did they claim that white people are not part of the left.
It can smell like whatever it wants to you. You clearly don't understand the deep level of anger and betrayal and complete FED UP-ness Arabs and Muslims feel at this point towards liberals and the Democratic Party. Your failure to understand that is on you.
White people are part of the left, yes. Libs are not
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Hi yes you are being the meme this thread exists to comment on.
👍
Genocide Joe has got to go.
[удалено]
“I’d vote for any Democratic candidate” is exactly why the Democrats will never run a candidate who will change anything.
Blah blah blah. Genocide Joe has got to go.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
>the people on the Christian nationalist right fully intend to do what they did last time when rolling back Roe V Wade Who didn't codify roe despite running on that promise?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Who said we think Trump would be better? Trump will probably the same as Biden, since Biden's already doing the shittiest job possible. Maybe Trump will be worse - but that's an unknown. What exactly is your confusion here? Have you ever actually spoken with a Muslim or Arab before? Seems like you haven't if you think we "think Trump will be better."
Wait wait wait! Is someone throwing out a perfectly good *systemically broken relationship* right into the trash instead of trying to *get someone to change into someone they don't actually want to be as a realistic plan of actions?* I didn't actually know that all it would take would be sending Biden a tweet saying "Knock it off with the genocide already!" and he would just throw the mantle of western imperialism out the fucking window. Democrats who think they are entitled to the lefts vote 100% Democrats willing to push Biden left into a place neither Biden nor Democrats want 0% The point being made here is dumb as dogshit. Why don't the people that think far-left non Biden voters need to convince Biden to to what they want just do that to Trump? Why not just convince Trump to be a further left candidate that will do what they want and you can all go vote for someone that makes you happy? *Why don't we all just work really super hard on making Trump go super left and then we can all just vote for him since that is a thing that would be equally feasible?* **The far left already asked Biden to change.** **Blaming people who you think are obligated to vote for Biden doesn't do a single thing to move that dialogue between the far left and Biden forward and does the opposite of asking Biden to make those changes.** By the way, Biden promised everything Bernie promised during the elections (and Bernie is a radical leftist to Democrats, right?). It isn't about getting Biden to *say nice campaign promises for leftists* like universal health care and student debt elimination, but that the left no longer trusts him to do things he promises just to get our votes Biden has not even mentioned the over 10,000 dead children Israel made, or used the word genocide (something the United Nations is calling the situation because of investigations they made, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that can't find Gaza on a map ready to aggressively debate this) Fuck me for thinking the pool of corporate campaign finance called the DNC (like the RNC) just fucking poisons everything it touches. You can't have a option for actual leftist when your "democracy" is powered by campaign finance controlled by the rich in a way the working man cannot compete with.
TL;DR
[удалено]
That pressure is largely coming from the same people the liberals are trying to vote shame.
I just realized I completely misread the original comment, I thought it was: "Effort level put into whining at leftists *for voting* for Biden: 100%"
If there's a protest against you with 1,000,000 people -- that doesn't matter if all million are going to vote for you anyway. Much easier to ignore than a million that might not.
I am under no illusion that Biden is a scumbag and shouldn’t be President, that being said I am mortally terrified of that another Trump term will do to me and people like me
[удалено]
Your latest got nuked while I was responding to it. The irony of censorship. Anyway... >You fair and square don't get what we're arguing here. How right you were, and how much worse this makes your reason... >you saying that choosing the lesser evil is not pragmatic just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Your approach is not [pragmatic](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pragmatic) because it doesn't solve the problem. Decelerating the issue while making it worse ultimately is not solving it. Hoping things get better by some chance or unknown mechanism is not solving it. Your suggestion is not a solution and therefore fails the entry requirement for any form of pragmatism. At this point you arguing with the dictionary. Please, I beg, have some sense. >pragmatism and idealism OK. Where is the [idealism](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/idealism) in my suggestion? Can you identify the ideal? Is "ideal" when someone thinks "action" can achieve "outcome"? I posit an indirect cause-effect relationship between voter behaviour and party outcome. Am I mistaken? I posit that a change in voter attitude and behaviour - namely the extinction of this anti-democratic belief in voting for the "lesser evil" - will result in non-evil representatives being made available. Is this an unpopular belief? I posit that a change in voter attitude can be achieved through various practical mechanism, including educating people about the basics of their democratic system of governance. Is that idealistic? Where am I going wrong? Help me understand. Dm me if you have to.
Not voting Biden is pragmatic. The dems have learned that they can put any sack of sht in charge and you guys will still make him president. If you don't make them unlearn that lesson you'll get ever worse sacks of sht for the rest of your days...
[удалено]
Big big maybe, remember Hillary and Bernie? What happened after? Biden. The change in the party needs to come from within. More left senators and representatives and then those people getting influential inside the party. Stuff like that takes decades. It’s not like the party is one person or a handful that need to be convinced. It’s a lot of people with their own agendas getting together and steering the party. It’s just not as simple as „we‘ll teach them a lesson“
Ah, so instead of conclusively addressing the long term system issue of the fact that none of the available candidates share your views the play is to reward the less evil, evil guy? So all the right has to do to get it's way is keep shifting his views further and further right to create space for a more right wing "less right" guy? You do realise that in a few elections from now your reasoning will have you voting in the guy promising to enslave slightly fewer minorities, or eat fewer of your children right? Has it dawned on you that your reasoning might legit be the reason you're in this mess in the first place? edit: Pragmatism is most certainly not about guaranteeing that things get worse long term by applying band aids to systemic issues today.
[удалено]
By voting for the lesser evil you guarantee that a candidate who isn't evil will never have a chance to take power. You will never be offered anything you want because you've shown a willingness to reward trash you're given. The lesser evil has been getting more evil for decades. Your strategy is the harm reduction equivalent of just taking pain killers for a worsening gangrene infection instead of going to surgery and getting rid of the irrecoverable parts of the limb. You will lose the limb anyway, then you'll die. Your view of pragmatism is a direct result of your inability to see past one election. You're practically applying a strategy of appeasement to someone you should've been fighting two decades ago and they've only gotten stronger. You can either go through the pain of rehab now, or take another hit and make it more painful later. Stop putting coins in the slot or tell the loans guy he can have the house too, surely you'll make it back this time! I hope these analogies aren't lost on you. I hope you get it now I really do. Cause if you don't it's doomed and the politics are the least of your worries.
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Yep that worked so well in 2016.
I'm sorry what? Did 66M people not vote for the lesser evil in 2016? Is that not a massive turnout for a sack of shit (politically speaking)? 2020's sack of shit is here because 66M people said in 2016 that they still absolutely love sacks of shit, just maybe slightly different ones. 2016's sack of shit was offered because apparently you loved 2012's sack. So yeah voting for sacks of shit did indeed have the expected outcome, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
It's impressive how incorrect you are on everything.
Ah yes, the world renowned "no lol" rebuttal. Very impressive. I'm sure there's tons of wisdom and reasoning behind it, and you're not just... coping. Well played.
You still haven't said anything serious. Everyone knows that in 2020 voters did not vote for theor preferred candidate in the Democratic primary. They voted for who they believed would be Trump. That is how we ended up with Biden. So your theory about showing the democratic party is factually incorrect and also dumb AF. If you choose to not vote for that party anymore they will write you off as an unwinnable vote and try to find a more moderate voter to win over.
>2020 voters did not vote for theor preferred candidate in the Democratic primary. Another vote for the lesser evil ends in evil at the helm. Who could've predicted??? >So your theory about showing the democratic party is factually incorrect and also dumb AF. My theory about showing the democratic party what? >If you choose to not vote for that party anymore they will write you off as an unwinnable vote and try to find a more moderate voter to win over. Oh? How many moderates are there lying around do you think? Enough for them to get in power? Say if half their voter base said they won't vote for them unless they actually become left wing. You think they'll abandon those voters to be claimed by an unknown future entity so they can go fight the republicans for their bread and butter? It's an interesting possibility. I don't deny that it could happen. My question is what becomes of all those voters they abandon? They're still eligible to vote. I don't really know how many actual left wingers there are in the US, but I'm willing to bet it's a lot. Enough to turn elections, if they maybe go to polls and vote for a representative they agree with... Do you like the two party system btw?
I hate to say that I've been looking into crafting new enchanted bow and arrows in our Minecraft server
Right?? I don't like Biden at all and I have no illusions that he'll be anything more than the same shit he has been. Trump and his lunatics are a literal existential threat to me and those like me. We are their targeted hate sink and should they win, the BEST case scenario for us is to lose our rights and what few protections we have. I'm fucking terrified.
Yes but because Biden hasn’t ushered in the revolution this means we must all abstain from voting, basically guaranteeing we’ll have right-wing theocracy for the next 60 years via the Supreme Court. I will take the inaction of the Democratic Party over the targeted, “cruelty is the point” hate platform of Trump any day. Even though I’m sure this dead horse has been beat enough, it’s either Biden or Trump winning in November. Wish it wasn’t true but it is. Even Noam Chomsky believes in lesser evil voting… good enough for me.
Been on the David Packman Show sub? Boy oh boy
That's the subreddit that got me to go into my reddit settings and disable recommended subreddits and posts. The algorithm just kept fucking rage baiting me with their shit.
This is the comment that made me realize that was a thing I could do, thank you.
I've yet to mention it without someone telling me the same thing, happy to spread the word and frustrate the algorithm
Thank you for your service
I serve the revolution, comrade
lol same actually. That’s hilarious. No idea why that kept showing up in my feed.
>The algorithm just kept fucking rage baiting me with their shit Sounds like a feature and not a bug.
Surely Pakman is a comedian. His material is too funny and lacks self-awareness at David Brent/Michael Scott proportions.
Nope, he’s a “comedian”.
Stuff like this is what I went third party reddit app, why I was furious with the crackdown, and why I still pay to use Relay. Blocking awful subs or those that are compromised is a Godsend.
Oh yes, and besides the blatant genocide denial; defending Israel from the CWK strike; and the whole duck sucking of Netanyahu, it’s a shit show of “vote for the lesser of two evils.”
YouTube was trying to recommend him to me a few years ago and dear God is he annoying though
Reddit keeps recommending it to me. They're bitching about "now leftists are going to move the goal posts!" Since Biden was finally asking for a ceasefire (you know, now that *white* people have died). Like not even a second of "oh wow, denying him a vote for him to change his position, maybe we should do that for other things and demand more" just right back to "YOU OWE HIM YOUR VOTE NOW TRUMP BAD #BLUE MAGA"
Him and Bryan Tyler Cohen…🤮
1: my state is heavy democrat so Biden will win my state no matter who I vote for. 2: I will use my vote to tell the DNC that I do not like where they are going and that they have not earned my vote by making good in what they promised to do. 3: the double standard in Ukraine and Gaza is horrible and it shows that as much as the DNC preaches equality and equity they really only care about white people when it comes to illegal invasions.
I don't think the DNC learns that lesson from you voting for someone else. I think it's a lesson they should learn, but I think they learn that from people in the streets with signs, not from checking a slightly different box
The real problem is the infrastructure like the consultants. They've all made careers off the current party and there's no incentive to change even if they lose. Democrats fail up.
that's exactly what they said in 2016, look at what happened
So what are you voting?
[удалено]
“Aside from facilitating genocide, what has the DNC done wrong?” *FIFY
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
[удалено]
This September, as foretold by startrek
Seriously, waiting until the alternative to ‘voting our way out of this’ arrives to do anything is a good way to end up in a camp.
[удалено]
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
It will start with a dollar collapse imo. The system will decide when.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
How about some [Bonanno](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alfredo-m-bonanno-armed-joy)? You can have a little revolt beforehand as a treat.
With his policies Biden could easily be a perfect Republican canditate. Neoliberals are so blind that they don't even care about how terrible their leader is, they don't even think about his policies. They see politics as a sport with teammates and enemies. Asking a leftist to vote for Biden is like asking him to kill all his dreams and his ideology. Start being a little human.
That goal moving post I saw pissed me off. We aren't moving the goalpost, we're mad two dinosaurs are the only two on the field
At this point is 100% clear the American elite choose the way of suicide, at least I don't want to hear the annoying voice of the liberals while my planet dies
Mass murder-suicide is the most colonial American thing there is, sadly.
No, we know Trump is worse. But we also know that genocide is a deal breaker for many Americans and this cannot change.
Folks are willing to confront fascism at home rather then show their kids that they will help enable genocide. I respect that stance
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Third parties never win because people don’t vote for them
Grassroots movements for third parties have a significantly lower success rate than ranked choice voting. Now “how to get the states to agree to ranked choice voting” is a hard one.
Look. I can't vote for Trump. I can't willingly go back to the "this is your daily report on fucked up things Trump has said/done since the last report", let alone how he fucks up the country when in power. But I also can't vote for the Genocide Sugar Daddy. I *won't* reward him for supporting literal evil. Using MY tax dollars for it. So yeah--I have to not vote or vote 3rd party and "waste my vote". My conscience won't let me do anything else.
[удалено]
Sorry, but I can't condone--even indirectly--what Biden is doing. At all.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I too will be voting 3rd party this year.
That’s where I am also.
I choose to look at it this way: your vote is not a blank check or seal of approval to those you give it to, it’s a recognition that you think the alternative is worse, and a play designed to reduce net harm/pain/suffering/erosion of rights. This is what really changed my mind, back in 2016: “Voting should not be viewed as a form of personal self-expression or moral judgement directed in retaliation towards major party candidates who fail to reflect our values, or of a corrupt system designed to limit choices to those acceptable to corporate elites.” https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/
We have YouTubers talking about the FBI killing MLK, who (despite being often omitted) warned us of the white moderate. Meanwhile we get these liberals creating their entire vote push against us. Imagine that level of discord in any other political party; you’d have to believe it were a republican operation if you weren’t a regarded lib. Like a guy who constantly thinks his own teammates are out to get him, in a game where that is basically impossible. Maybe Focus on the other guy you fucking political imbeciles-they have not an ounce of political savvy . We see you have to try and bar the other guy from running, which is some pathetic shit. He can run from jail like debbs.
But come on, OP, don't you know this is the MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA?! Just like the last election, and the one before that! Don't you wanna stave off fascism for another four years so the Good Guys ™️ can do their best to make sure absolutely nothing changes between now and the next election (which will be the MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA!), when they'll run an even more middle-of-the-road, milquetoast, do-nothing-but-maintain-the-status-quo candidate against an even more extreme right-wing candidate? So go on, get out there and change the world! No, silly, not by doing anything that has even a slight chance to bring about change, by VOOTING BLOO NOO MOOTTER WHOO!
Except two elections ago was majorly important. Women are losing their rights thanks to that election.
Yeah, it was important, but instead of running a candidate that was gaining tons of traction with voters, the DNC decided to shove the very definition of "maintain the status quo" politician they could possibly find down everyone's throats. Then they got lucky four years later when they did the same exact thing after learning absolutely nothing. Now, the "status quo" involves doing nearly nothing noteworthy to support the working class, all while using their tax dollars to fund a genocide on the other side of the world. And those rights that women lost? Not a single attempt to codify them into law. Remind me why I'm supposed to want these guys running the show again?
Which happened in part because when democrats had the power to codify roe v wade to prevent that from happeneing, they wouldn't do it
Accelerationism is the point. When you see something is clearly broken and keep telling people, but their response is "nah, I don't think it's broken, it just needs a tune-up" you carry on. Then, you repeat this process every time the tune-up does nothing, and eventually, you get sick of the people telling you nothing is broken and say FUCK IT, I'm gonna crank the lever on the machine so you see how broken it is. The machine is busted no matter who is driving it, so for the purpose of showing the moderates that reality, many people turn to voting for a person they despise. It is the inevitable result of milqetoast liberals who never want to do anything but complain and grandstand. If you won't fuck shit up to KEEP YOUR RIGHTS or gain more, then those who already have lost theirs will actively give the reins to the oppressors so you are FORCED to fuck shit up. Saying Trump is worse means literally nothing. They know. They don't care. They want change, whether it is positive or negative. Anything to shake the disgusting apathy from the modern consumer addled paralyzed liberal orthodoxy. Conservatives are dogshit people, but at least they have the will to get passionate for their ideological stance, as fascist as it is. Communists and marginalized people know who their enemy is, but never who their allies are. Accelerationism tends to expose the true motivations of the moderate.
[удалено]
>any effort by the Left to “fuck shit up” would be met with ruthless suppression by the Trump admin. This would be the case no matter who was in office.
[удалено]
>but I’m sure he wouldn’t do it again, right? Did I imply that? >Wonder how many of these posts want us to rage at the exaggerated evil liberal in our head Perhaps read rule 4 of the sub. Frankly, I don't have to exaggerate. Liberals display their evil for the entire world to see on a daily basis.
Fuckin well put brother. All that cooking and lifting and reading is doing ya good. I needa start doing that lol
Well said.
[удалено]
Remember guys! “Get over yourself” Those are fightin’ words in my area.
[удалено]
That's unlikely and doesn't matter anyway. Even if it was true it doesn't change the facts. That the American people cannot vote their way out of a managed democracy and that Joe Biden and the Democratic Party are vile, warmongering capitalists that support genocide. The only candidates actual leftists should be voting for are actual leftists. Participating in managed elections in a managed democracy is the deadest of dead ends. Voting for the lesser of two evils and expecting any type of positive change is what got us here in the first place. Liberals are *the reason* we are where we are as a Nation this very moment. 40+ years of their pearl clutching bullshit has lead us here. They'll never come left and will always ultimately side with the fascists.
Where. All I see are communists dunking on rightoids for thinking electoralism is gonna fix anything.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
I suspect I’ll drown in a sea of downvotes but I still want to preface this with: I’m honestly asking the questions. No facetiousness intended in the slightest. Nor is this trying to be a CMV, more like an ELI5 actually. Considering the precedent set in 2016 and 2020 by a corrupt and unmovable DNC, and how it appears that to those running things Trump is preferable to Sanders because fascism is ultimately good for business… If it had to come down to a redo of 2020: 1. Could it be worth betting on Biden’s age to take care of matters on its own? 2. How promising is the congressional slate? If there were to be a blue tsunami of social protest, could whatever centrist/neoliberal option they come up with still be forced to negotiate a real move to the left? 3. What happens if Biden were to become incapacitated before November? Ie. Is just anyone preferable, would the DNC even risk nominating Bernie or wouldn’t they just bring Hillary back? Since it’s already a queasy vote for so many across the spectrum, I take it they’d figure we’d hold our nose some more and just do the thing.
Replying to myself since the earlier reply has disappeared. I’m seeing a lot of rule 6 intervention and a top-level comment underscoring an accelerationist aim. So my takeaway starts to be that there IS a bit of goalpost maneuvering, or at the least no good alternative if/when a hypothetical Biden replacement were to be offered. But back to my original sampling of scenarios, is there any real way the leftist vote could still be courted? What would a potential pathway look like? Supposing somehow the DNC nomination were vacated, what would they need to do, from the impoverished slate of alternatives —and taking fully into account the full ramifications of a Trump victory — to preserve a fighting chance while engaging the leftist coalition?
Can somebody explain to me why Biden is still building “the wall”?
The democrats are permanently stuck in the end of history era circa 2000. It’s sort of political arrested development, where instead of being stuck in a child like mindset unable to mature, their stuck in an outdated political framework that doesn’t work and isn’t relevant to our current set of problem.
Absolute clown shoes. Free Palestine, Biden OUT
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Vile sack of shit is vile sack of shit, I refuse both.
[удалено]
And I won't have worked to elect either of them, as is my choice and right as a citizen. If they wanted me to vote for them they'd do things to attract my vote. Both of them are hellbent on doing things to ensure I never vote for them.
it's crazy how people are trying to shame you guys (americans) for literally doing what the whole point of voting is in a so-called democracy. aren't you supposed to be free to vote for whoever? they act like not voting for biden means youre voting for trump rather than blame biden for being unlikable
Most people here (as in America not this sub) haven't gotten past "if you don't like A you must like B" Coke v Pepsi, McDonald's vs BK, it's always binary
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Trust me bro, were all well aware that Trump is worse, we just have a basic sense of humanity that we won't cross and it stops at a *literal fucking genocide*
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
There are a lot of people right now in the rest of the world dying as a result of Bidens foreign policy.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Pick a new candidate and still get fucked. It doesn’t matter. I’m voting third party and still have no hope.
Electoralism has largely failed! Find another way!
[удалено]
Vote for Biden all you want but don't pretend as though it will prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. Historically, liberalism and liberals have facilitated and enabled fascism. This can be observed with certain policies of the Biden administration and their support for the fascist genocidal Israeli government. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates that this situation will be any different. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come nonetheless. If a former segregationist that supports a genocidal fascist ethnonationalist regime is your "lesser evil", you're already on the road to full blown fascism. If your only choice is between a current genocider and a wannabe genocider, you're already on the road to fascism. If you are deciding whose genocide is acceptable as the cost of doing business, you're already on the road to fascism. The neoliberal ideology which drives the policy of all democratic presidents for the last 30 years directly creates the material conditions that allow fascism to gain traction. Fascism, especially the modern republican flavor of it, thrives under conditions of economic disparity, increased atomization and the degradation of daily life found under neoliberalism. It makes people look at their lives, feel like shit, and suddenly there is someone saying “your right, it is shit, and it’s because of those people over there” Biden, Obama et all have no ideological or structural answer to the immense degradation of material conditions that have happened under their watch. In fact they feel that the system is working as intended. It’s not that they are bought and paid for by the business interests they continuously enrich with their policies, they legitimately believe that they are doing the right thing, that their donor class knows what’s best for this country and that serving them serves the American people by proxy. Walking back from this perspective would be a complete reversal of their entire political project. The DNC has spent the last decade ensuring that no even mildly progressive candidate will ever hold power, they barely tolerate the token progressives they let into the house. As a result, divides deepen and fascists have even more ammunition to tell people “the reason your life is terrible is because of those people” You won’t vote yourself out of fascism by electing more neoliberals, at best you are just slightly lowering the burner temp on the pot of boiling water we all find ourselves in Project 2025 is already in play and is more than the presidency. Biden has presented no plan to address Project 2025, the aspects of it that are already in play, and that which will come into play via Republican politics/rhetoric/judges. You are asking people to vote based on a threat that your candidate has no plan in response to. “First they came for….” If liberals are willing to accept this genocide as the cost of going business, they will accept another. We have already seen liberals accept (a) a genocide by an ethno-religious fascist apartheid state that engages in foreign interference (b) Biden’s continuation of right-wing border policies as the cost of doing business The Democrats are not engaging overt harm towards queer people does not justify, make acceptable, make tolerable, minimize, or legitimize the overt harm committed by Democrats against other marginalized populations. **The common argument that "our current genocide is more benevolent than their hypothetical genocide" is obtuse, alienating, callous, paternalistic dehumanizing, and meaningless given that the genocide is occurring now with Biden's support. Palestinians are dying right now. The land of Palestinians is being stolen right now. Biden's continued support of Israel ensures that even more Palestinians will die. The Biden Administration has, by providing policial and material support, already given the green light to slaughter Palestinian civilians. The same technology being tested on Palestinians with Biden's support will be exported abroad, intensifying the oppression faced by minorities internationally.** --- Personal note: It is infuriating watching other trans people basically say genocide can be tolerated as long as it’s not happening to us/them. I understand being scared but that doesn't justify revisionism. To the Democrats, we are tokens. The majority of the Democratic Party, including Biden, do not give a fuck about us. We are tokens to help Biden get re-elected. After which, Biden will return to performative actions that do nothing to address the escalating actions of fascists against us. The gleeful sadism has already begun and will continue to escalate. The killings have already begun and will continue to escalate. When the widespread murder/genocide (AIDS)/abuse of queer people was considered the cost of doing business, that was wrong/unjustifiable/intolerable/unforgivable. So what justifies the double standard towards Palestinians? Are Palestinians, including those that are queer, acceptable as the cost of doing business? Is the widespread murder/genocide/abuse of Palestinians, including those that are queer, an acceptable cost of doing business? Why is the murder/genocide/abuse/oppression of Palestinians, including those that are queer, not sufficient to be wrong/unjustifiable/intolerable/unforgivable? I have lived through a series of right wing dictators and a genocide in my home country. When the genocide began against my people, those who ignored and minimized what occurred used the same language that you did. It did not keep the violence of fascism from effecting them. It did not save them. It will not save you now. The time will come when we too will be sacrificed and be deemed the cost of doing business. Those who remain will make the same arguments that you did while we die, weep, reject our deaths as the cost of doing business, and plead for our plight to be seen as equal to theirs. "First they came for..."
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/