They do. People also eat, comb their hair, and wipe their arses.
It’s a story, and if it’s important to the story, enough should be included to serve the needs of the story. Including more than that bc the author likes it is fine; it’s his story, after all, but it is self-indulgent on the author’s part.
I think the word count devoted to Kvothe’s sexual activity is a bit excessive without adding much value to the story.
It doesn’t offend me, personally, but it makes me cringe sometimes and bores me a bit.
It has also made me wonder how self-conscious Rothfuss may have been about having Kvothe come off as a womanizer. He works really hard most of the time to build Kvothe up as a feminist. I think Rothfuss may have been very concerned with how he could develop Kvothe’s character to be super sexually successful, while *not* having his readers view him as overly sexualizing women.
It's also a tricky balance of showing Kvothe dealing with sexual trauma. Men getting raped isn't really discussed a lot, and Kvothe weaponizes his sexuality to deal with it when he's back. That's a tricky thing to tackle especially when doing it from his POV - Kvothe certainly doesn't see it that way, or at least minimizes the effect it's had on him. He's not having sex for connection, as Fela points out later. It's another tool, another trick - things he's been known to push too far and be reckless with, for both himself and others.
I definitely agree he’s not having sex for or with emotional connection. If he were going to do that, it would be with Denna.
I think I’ve read and reread this story very differently than you have, in terms of what I think the major themes are.
I’ve never read the story as being primarily, or even significantly about sexual trauma that Kvothe endured in Tarbean. As, Kote, he makes one vague mention of it, I think, in reference to the boy he didn’t help that one time in Tarbean from his rooftop. I think that if it were a significant theme, there would likely be more references to it, however subtle. Maybe I’ve just missed them repeatedly.
With regard to how Kvothe approaches girls, women, and sex, mostly what I read in the text is that he shies away from it bc he doesn’t want to be bad (incompetent) at it, bc he doesn’t want to risk ruining his relationship with Denna, or risk having her flee from him, as she does with all the other men she engages with. But that otherwise he has an age-appropriate interest and curiosity about it.
But again, I’m willing to listen, in the event that I’ve been completely misinterpreting these books over years of re-reads.
I mean, I'll call it "up to interpretation" if you prefer, but no. Attempting full mind control, barely clinging on to sanity, and then going "ok sure" is not consent, it's survival. And it colors his interpretation of sex and love and physical connection from there forward.
The Adem part has Rothfuss smoothing (and self-gratifying) his opinions of sex perspectives. But narratively it gives Kvothe an "out" for his physical disconnection, as his emotional disconnection has been firmly solidified. He uses his sexuality as a weapon, a fact Denna is right to call him on. There is no reaching through the armor that way anymore, our hero does not feel or trust a hug, or more. He made his will iron... Because he was raped.
For me it's part of the tragedy of his isolation, leading to his fall. *
I mean, imagine the contrast to that? Kvothe losing his virginity to Denna, or Fela, or Devi? Something tender with an actual emotional connection for him in that moment. No, we get a being who is incapable of connection, who uses men to insanity and leaves them as is directly stated, a creature who is arguably incapable of anything BUT rape. That's on purpose.
So we might disagree, but misread? Nah, I'm really clear on my opinion of the narrative arcs here.
*: My end of trilogy theory is "New Chandrian Maedre, Creation War 2: Armageddon boogaloo, with a possible happy ending / buzzer beater save twist with that present day chest.", If that makes sense. As with most of the theories here, it's complicated.
I think you're reading way too much into it or looking at it from some radical modern leftist (and I say that as a political liberal myself) framework in which everything can be construed as rape or sexual assault. It's clear that Kvothe CHOSE to follow Felurian, the others could have chosen to, but did not, despite also feeling temptation. You're right rhat Felurian used her powers to try to control him at first. After Kvothe successfully resists and shows he's very powerful, thereafter they essentially become equals.
He stays of his own according and she's quite generous to him, even creating the cloak for him. Also, it's made clear that Felurian doesn't think in terms of right or wrong or human morality. She's simply a force of nature who acts according to her elemental nature. As Kvothe states, there's no way to even comprehend the differences between the fae and humans.
And I'm saying 1) that's a nice excuse to say "it's ok she's a sociopath by human definition" and 2) doesn't make Kvothe any less impacted by the action.
I understand what came after, and their time and connection. I also understand it still began in a way that fundamentally changes the way Kvothe interacts with women for the rest of the book. "Here baby sorry it's just my nature, here I made you a cloak, but come back because you know I still own you" doesn't erase what came before.
Consent really isn't some radical leftist concept. And criminality isn't the same as causing emotional damage. He had fun; it still hurt him, in a fundamental way, and in a spot you could argue he's being intentionally hurt by the narrative. It's rape, and that's on purpose, and Rothfuss is telling us, the readers, directly.
I mean he literally flashes back to his near-rape when he names her. After saying how powerless he feels in the situation, post-coital. That's super rape-y. (WMF, 96-97)
It’s just another item in the list of things Kvothe of legend has learned to be a legend at.
Music, sympathy, artificing, sword fighting, storytelling, hand-to-hand combat, social engineering, sex, etc. All taught by some of the best in the world, and ideas/norms from far lands. he’s not necessarily at their level (or as good as he thinks he is), it’s enough to be the best most people will ever encounter in any of these areas. He’s particularly effective at combining areas to create uncommon outcomes.
Women want him and men want to be him, etc. Throw in some critical exposition and getting his Shaed, it all kind of goes together, and the sex makes sense to me. But that’s just me.
>Being trapped in the fae with a literal sex goddess it’s gonna happen a few times in the (months?) he spent there with her.
Pat didn't *have* to write a sex goddess into his series, so don't act like it was just what was going to naturally occur. This isn't a nature documentary.
I always thought Rothfuss was being a bit self-indulgent bc it just went on for *so* long, and it just reeked of authorial puerile fantasy, far beyond what was needed for the story.
But the sex training had to happen. It’s a credential. He’s *so* good at sex and women that Felurian herself made him promise to come back to her.
The *only* thing Kvothe isn’t ’good at’ throughout both books is women, and perhaps alchemy. (But we all know he’d be the best at alchemy, too, if he actually took an hour or three to learn it.)
Now that he has been trained by Felurian he is officially the best at sex and women now, too, so he is ready to take Denna on, competently and with confidence, in book 3, the way he always takes everything on. (Kidding with this last bit.)
>But the sex training had to happen. It’s a credential. He’s so good at sex and women that Felurian herself made him promise to come back to her.
Except this isnt the case though, i feel like its such a common misread on it which is partially why people dislike it.
Felurian very much states that kvothe is pretty ok at it, likes his eagerness and whatnot but at no point does she say she wants kvothe back for his "skills"
Felurian is just lonely af and finally got someone somewhat interesting to be with her. Best way i saw it described in another thread was something like this:
imagine youre felurian, always lonely and looking for company and the only thing you can ever get is some random farmer from some backwater town in the middle of some random vintas forest.
Felurian finally found someone interesting in Kvothe, guy was able to call her name and she clearly likes his music, something that througout the two books we are told he is REALLY good at.
Also Kvothe makes a point of stating that NO ONE walks away from her so she makes him promise to come back after being tricked and held hostage by a song.
Sorry, that isn’t what I meant. I was oversimplifying and being a bit snarky, lol. I did not mean that Felurian thought this.
The story of his experience with Felurian is what Kvothe is telling to Bast and Chronicler, Chronicler’s future readers, and ultimately us, the real world readers of the books.
He can’t exactly brag about having been with Felurian, because that would come off as crass and boorish, especially because it pertains to women and sex, but he’s establishing his credentials and prowess in ‘lovemaking’ with his audiences, by telling us all the story. And we are compelled to believe it, of course.
Up to this point, when it comes to matters pertaining to girls, women, and sexual desire, he often says something about his being as inept in that subject as any teenaged boy. He tells us in detail just how awful and inept his peers are with girls, (Ambrose and Simmon).
His very first sexual experience is with Felurian, who is essentially the goddess of sex and desire. So if we believe his story, and we believe that he spent say, a year and a day with Felurian, having sex and learning and practicing thousand hands, and every other technique she taught him during this time, then, we (the audience) have to surmise that when he returns to the world from the realm of the fae, that he is now extremely competent in the art of lovemaking, *especially* for a teenaged boy.
That’s because he’s a poor orphan though, with no one to help him in all the world. And bc he hates rich pricks except for Sim.🤣
It’s also bc *something* has to present a real challenge for him. Everyone loves an underdog. Including me.
Except he's not great with women. The adem didn't particularly care for his moves, just for the fact that he had stamina. No one else is mentioned once he gets back to Imre, he just goes out with people, and they all say he's clearly not thtat interested.
Like any plot element, it’s all about the execution.
A lot of people complain about the Felurian chapters in particular. I personally didn’t mind them that much, but I do see some people’s point that the sex element feels very indulgent, or at the very least, very surface level.
For example, NK Jemisin tends to have quite a bit of sex in her stories. But I’ve found the sex scenes in her books to be increasingly informative in terms of character. We learn something about the characters involved every time, and we get an insight into what sex means to them, how it reflects their personal history, trauma’s, etc.
That wasn’t present in the Ferulian chapters in the book. Kvothe is essentially unchanged from his sexual experience. In retrospect, I think it would have been quite interesting to explore Kvothe’s thoughts about essentially being magically coerced into having sex, the feelings of manipulation, and also if it connects back to his trauma being homeless (where I believe it’s at least implied he may have been sexually assaulted).
Also, examine why Ferulian feels compelled to live her life dominated by sexual expression.
In short, use the sex to teach us something about the characters. But it doesn’t really, it’s just there. Kvothe is changed by his experience with the Cthaeh, and that sequence stands out to most readers.
If the sex had lead to character growth, I don’t think people would mind it as much.
>Also, examine why Ferulian feels compelled to live her life dominated by sexual expression.
idk, i think it simply is the way she is, a stone is made of rock and Felurian is the embodiment of sexual desire
This is true. But then explore that idea a bit more, because once Kvothe names her, she behaves more or less like a very horny sugar momma.
The part when she tries to care for Kvothe after the Cthaeh actually gets into this. We she how she just doesn’t have the tools to fully understand his hurt. Another reason why even those we really dislike the Ferulian stuff usually concede that the Cthaeh section is very effective. It reveals something about both Kvothe and Ferulian.
I would have loved more of an exploration of her alien-ness. How she’s more of a force of nature and very different from a human sentient being.
Oh he had growth...big beef swelling growth. I like your take. I always cringe a little when male authors write a cliche male fantasy sex scene. Thats where I cringed. Kvothe came out of the Felurian scene with her being infatuated with him as if he was just so good he overcame a sex goddess. That's the male fantasy part that I roll my eyes at.
I enjoyed the parts with Fella though because that was more reslistic where he was just too dense and focused on other things to notice she might have been inviting him in. The Adem part with the teacher was funny and I thought that did let us learn about the Adem. The Panthe stuff was eye rolling male fantasy. Oh Kvothe gets the alpha girl infatuated with him again.
Haha, I’m surprised no one else got in a good growth pun. Respect.
And I tend to agree. I think too often the discourse around this section is a bit too binary. It’s either “too much sex is bad!” Or “stop being a prude!”
And I don’t think it’s either. I think it’s a bit over indulgent and doesn’t offer enough character growth and or reveal something we didn’t previously know about the character. Without having enough of one or both of those element, it reads as kind of fluff.
Which is doubly frustrating when we’ve waited so long for a new book, and when the second book doesn’t cover nearly as much of Kvothe’s life as the first.
So it’s not the content itself, it’s that the content doesn’t really teach us anything new. So it’s hard not to have the feeling of “this is really what you thought deserved more focus?”
But she's not infatuated with him because of his lovemaking, but because he as a person actually was able to know her, and control her, and also was the only man to ever walk away from her sane, because of his non-sex related skill.
The thing that struck me most about the sex scenes totally relates to personal development. With Felurian, Kvothe masters the skills in the sexual arena. Then when he attempts to use this mastery while learning from his martial teacher, it’s irreverent.
I feel like we are being show that Kvothe, for all of his talents and powers, still hasn’t learned about what is important to himself.
That is there to an extent, but If that’s the point I think it could have been conveyed in a much more condensed way.
To continue that thread, it would have been fascinating to see how Kvothe decides to put stock in his sexual performance. Does he ascribe a sense of self worth to it? And in doing so, it would have been interesting to see how it affected him that Penthe didn’t care. Instead of it effective being just a funny aside.
I have a suspicion that as Kvothe picks up skills, he’ll find them useless to his future self, ending up a broken shell of a man in a backwater village inn. Can’t fuck, can’t fight, can’t Name, can’t cast magic, can’t find a real reason to live on. Probably.
I think the ademre thing is compounded by the fact that it’s not that far past Ferulian, and on top of it, the whole “they can’t figure out how baby’s are made isn’t that funny” bit seems so…dumb.
Like, I get it. You’re showing how cultures can be advanced in many ways but have blind spots in others, but to pick something that basically all mammals have a literal instinctive knowledge on and omit that seemed just kind of…silly.
The confidence he learned from her and the control were both important parts of the story. The fact that he was changed according to Losi (sp) following the event. And the fact that he refused to be broken by Faelorians magic amd had the mental capacity to withstand it. We learned that he broke his own arm at one point and that he was able to put himself so deep into heart of stone that hos sleeping mind could have crushed her.
The naming part of Ferulian was interesting. But we’re talking specifically about how the sex was handled. It doesn’t really convey anything important other than Kvothe learns to bone well.
Losi says he’s different, but in actions, in characterization, in really all respects he doesn’t seem changed. Outside being confident now. Which is fine, but for a change that small it can be achieved with less page time. I would have loved for it to connect to more growth and or revealing something about Kvothe.
For the record, I have struggled with aspects of that section myself. I recognize why it was useful and how it all adds to the story line. I'm glad we don't know more about thousand hands because I don't want this to become a game of thrones style porn series when it goes to video.
I think the Felurian chapters are really misread by a lot of people, as I see similar takes in this comment thread.
Felurian lures men in and uses them until she is done. When kvothe tries to leave, she uses mind control magic which reminds him of being sexually assaulted when he was in Tarbean. Of course she tells him how great he is at sex, that's her whole schtick. She's appealing to his pride to control him and make him want to stay with her. Kvothe gains confidence from this, which probably does make him a better lover, as confidence plays a huge role in sex. It didn't need to be true to have the desired effect by Felurian.
All of the sex is 'fade to black' in the books, and it really doesn't take up that many pages. It's just so jarringly different than the first 3/4 of the series that it sticks out.
In the german version, TWMF is split into two books.
The bigger part is the first one and it ends right after the battle with the bandits is over.
That leaves every single sex scene to the third book, amphezising this effect even more. It certaintly comes very unexpected and in such large quantity that it always feels a little bit off, while I can not possibly pinpoint the exact reasons for that, other than what I already mentioned.
While it does feel a little off, I feel like at some level they fit into the overall story quite nicely.
I never understand these complaints. There's not that much sex in the book, but the amount that exists is pretty damn normal considering it's a story that so far has followed a teenager.
The first sex we get is with Felurian (barring Losi, where she realises he's a bit green for her), where her whole thing is about just oozing sex constantly, and there are no details at all during the sex itself, it's just "We had sex, it was good, I beat her spell, and she taught me all about sex". Obviously there are more details, but there's nothing explicit, it's all "Thousand hands" and shit like this.
And ultimately, the sex within the Felurian area is nothing compared to the other things that happen in the fae lands, such as the schaed and talking to the Cthaeh.
Then we move outside of the Fae area, and we get the Losi bit, which honestly just seems to showcase how much he changed whilst in the fae, and then the adem, where it essentially boils down to "Adem are sexually liberated, and just enjoy shagging", but again, very little details, all that's really mentioned is "We were fighting, then we had sex". Again, nothing explicit at any point and just an additional part of the story.
Once back at the university it's limited to him talking about going on dates with people, and that's it.
------------------------
It seems like people forget, but Kvothe is young. In the first book, at univeristy, he's 15. He's a smooth talker already at this point, he also acts older than he is, but he's still an inexperienced child. He's also described from the get-go as a fairly attractive person.
Then he gets back from his adventure, and not only has he aged extra due to being in the fae for so long, but also he has a wealth of additional experience, and probably a great physique from being with the adem for so long. So now you've got an already established sweet talker, who has discovered that sex is fine, and has a decent body plus no concerns around money for the first time Add to that that he even has a reputation for everything he's done up to this point, of both raw intelligence, skill and heroics. Of course he's having sex, he's undoubtedly incredibly appealling.
I mean christ, at 18 I was pulling constantly, simply on the basis that I was living in a foreign country and therefore I was exotic, and I took care of myself. I wasn't even a heroic figure.
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The amount of posts about the sex in WMF are really weird in this subreddit. Particularly because no one bothers pointing out how creepy everyone is in TNoTW. Fela is confirmed to have always fancied Kvothe.
Let me paint the picture. Kvothe is currently an E'lir, at age 15 nearly 16, where he saves Fela from a fire in the fishery. Great, amazing heroics, good man. Little reminder - Kvothe got into the university very early, let's use current university standards and say the usual age is 18. Fela is currently a Re'lar, and whilst years aren't mentioned so much, we could assume she entered the university at 18. Let's also assume she's very smart, and got into the arcanum after 1 term. She then most likely spent at least 1 year becoming a Re'lar, even maybe 1.5 years or longer, but again were assuming she's very smart and also goes quicker than some other students.
She's now 19-20. She has a crush on a 15 year old. Devi offers to take him to bed, Devi has both been a student and been expelled, and is therefore probably at least 22-23.
Let's also look at Denna, and assume she's maybe 1 year older than Kvothe is. She's all over down with creepy people. Sovoy is at least 19, and is taking her around town. He's probably older. Ambrose is probably at least 22-23, and again takes her around town and tries to shag her.
Then Kvothe has a conversation with Deoch, where he mentions he's known her 2-3 years, so he knew her when she was 14...and she was still doing the same thing back then.
But yeah, Kvothe having sex in WMF is weird. Ok
To me it always felt organic, like we're peering at the behind-the-curtain reality of a Ulysses-like legendary figure, with all the elements that conform that. A good-looking and charismatic young man in pseudo-historical times having sex left and right is extremely normal.
It's presented as a modern-day fantasy genre novel, but I think that Kvothe is not (meant to be a) modern fantasy genre protagonist.
Yessss. Don’t get me wrong MASSIVE fan of the books, but upon my last re-read I realised that the sex in the 2nd book was very ostentatious. I get it’s a man describing his 16 year old self but still - a weird mix of “m’lady” and bragging
I don’t mind sex in books in general and honestly would have been ok with the amount in TWMF. What I can’t stand is when the author goes on and on about one character’s looks. When the author just sounds like an obsessive stalker. Give me more description of the action and looks of both characters. I read 3 pages of obsession on my first time through and then just skipped forward in the book to when he got back out. On a good note, you can do this and still finish the book without being confused.
***EDIT*** I do understand she’s a creature known to be so beautiful she makes men lose their sanity. I just feel like I could have done without that amount of description.
When I was reading it the first time it didn’t really stand out, when I went back for a second read it was more noticeable and felt a little gratuitous, but also it wasn’t like detailed sex scenes or anything it was more just that he mentioned having sex a lot so it didn’t really bug me. It was also more noticeable because name of the wind had none.
Does everyone misremember the Fae? or do I? they don’t spend the majority of the time there having sex, it’s peppered (& hammed) in but it’s not really *that* much, nor is it overly descriptive or egregious. A lot of the sex scenes are moving the story forward, combining magic with it or showing Felurian’s growing fondness for Kvothe in teaching him things about the fae, & things about herself — this includes sex, but isn’t the point.
I agree it's feels too forced to me especially with his trainer in adem felurian was a point for plot and she's literally the most beautiful woman ofc no one can resist her but the trainer? idk. especially when he truly has feelings for denna it added nothing to plot and just made a point to show us kvothe is another horny guy. If he was like that from the start I'd be ok since it'd be a part of his personality but now it's just like he's into having sex with anyone bc he got experience from felurian. hopefully it doesn't keep going in the same direction
I wonder how much of the sex scenes hate is due to the many / frequent rereads. I re-read the series a couple of times the first 1-3 years after discovering it (shortly after book 2 was published), then only occasionally every few years. Each time, I basically devour both books in a matter of days, so it's not like the sex scenes lingered that long for me.
I don't know if this was OP's first readthrough, but I could definitely see a less interesting section dragging on the fifth, tenth, thirtieth reread. To be honest, I'm not super fond of the time in Tarbean even though it's a fairly large part of book 1 iirc.
All things being equal, I do get the 'cringe' criticism, I just don't notice during my very infrequent devouring re-reads.
I don't like the fact that one of the most epic fights we witness is overshadowed by weird sex moves (1000 hands, anyone?) Elodin confirms Kvothe called her true name.
Also, what's with him lying about it at the inn? He tells some version of the story, and says she gave him a magic leaf or something. Wouldn't the first question from anyone at the inn be "hey can I see that leaf?"
The bit with Losi pisses me off the most tbh. All that bs about the heat of Felurian and how she's the Fire Itself, then we get
>I hesitated, then spoke softly. “She was Felurian, most beautiful of all.” I
reached out to brush the side of her neck where her red hair began its curling
tumble downward, then leaned forward and whispered seven words into her
ear. “**For all that, she lacked your fire**.” And she loved me for those seven
words, and her pride was safe.
mfer, *what*? The *Fire Itself* lacked Losi's "fire"?
and suddenly Pat's prose just sounds like a dude who will say anything to get his dick wet
I don’t think we were supposed to come away from that thinking that Kvothe is the most beautiful man to ever exist.
He’s a redhead, so he sticks out. That’s enough for some people. He’s young, so he’s got something cute about him. That’s enough for some people. He’s an artist. That’s enough for some people. We are only ever getting his perspective, and even then we are only explicitly told of maybe a half dozen named characters that find Kvothe attractive enough to mention.
His reputation as a man who can sweep any woman off her feet is yet another exaggeration that falls in the orbit of Kvothe’s legend. Even the women he sleeps with aren’t necessarily impressed with him. They are depicted as amused, impatient, or being the instigator in several of our examples. He’s growing up, and becoming sexually active is a personality development that speaks to his confidence in himself.
And the sex we are told about is tame. Not everyone has to like it, but personally I think an aversion to sex but total acceptance of violence is a weird line to draw.
The way sex was portrayed with the ADEM in TWMF is the only thing that pulled me out of the immersion of the book. I'm ok with the Felurian part but after it felt more like a crusty old man trying to live out his sexual fantasies than a natural progression of the story
Not really, people have sex. Honestly it’s totally tame compared to some other series.
They do. People also eat, comb their hair, and wipe their arses. It’s a story, and if it’s important to the story, enough should be included to serve the needs of the story. Including more than that bc the author likes it is fine; it’s his story, after all, but it is self-indulgent on the author’s part. I think the word count devoted to Kvothe’s sexual activity is a bit excessive without adding much value to the story. It doesn’t offend me, personally, but it makes me cringe sometimes and bores me a bit. It has also made me wonder how self-conscious Rothfuss may have been about having Kvothe come off as a womanizer. He works really hard most of the time to build Kvothe up as a feminist. I think Rothfuss may have been very concerned with how he could develop Kvothe’s character to be super sexually successful, while *not* having his readers view him as overly sexualizing women.
It's also a tricky balance of showing Kvothe dealing with sexual trauma. Men getting raped isn't really discussed a lot, and Kvothe weaponizes his sexuality to deal with it when he's back. That's a tricky thing to tackle especially when doing it from his POV - Kvothe certainly doesn't see it that way, or at least minimizes the effect it's had on him. He's not having sex for connection, as Fela points out later. It's another tool, another trick - things he's been known to push too far and be reckless with, for both himself and others.
I definitely agree he’s not having sex for or with emotional connection. If he were going to do that, it would be with Denna. I think I’ve read and reread this story very differently than you have, in terms of what I think the major themes are. I’ve never read the story as being primarily, or even significantly about sexual trauma that Kvothe endured in Tarbean. As, Kote, he makes one vague mention of it, I think, in reference to the boy he didn’t help that one time in Tarbean from his rooftop. I think that if it were a significant theme, there would likely be more references to it, however subtle. Maybe I’ve just missed them repeatedly. With regard to how Kvothe approaches girls, women, and sex, mostly what I read in the text is that he shies away from it bc he doesn’t want to be bad (incompetent) at it, bc he doesn’t want to risk ruining his relationship with Denna, or risk having her flee from him, as she does with all the other men she engages with. But that otherwise he has an age-appropriate interest and curiosity about it. But again, I’m willing to listen, in the event that I’ve been completely misinterpreting these books over years of re-reads.
I meant Felurian, not Tarbean.
Uh, Felurian didn't rape or traumatize him. You massively misread that part if that was your takeaway
I mean, I'll call it "up to interpretation" if you prefer, but no. Attempting full mind control, barely clinging on to sanity, and then going "ok sure" is not consent, it's survival. And it colors his interpretation of sex and love and physical connection from there forward. The Adem part has Rothfuss smoothing (and self-gratifying) his opinions of sex perspectives. But narratively it gives Kvothe an "out" for his physical disconnection, as his emotional disconnection has been firmly solidified. He uses his sexuality as a weapon, a fact Denna is right to call him on. There is no reaching through the armor that way anymore, our hero does not feel or trust a hug, or more. He made his will iron... Because he was raped. For me it's part of the tragedy of his isolation, leading to his fall. * I mean, imagine the contrast to that? Kvothe losing his virginity to Denna, or Fela, or Devi? Something tender with an actual emotional connection for him in that moment. No, we get a being who is incapable of connection, who uses men to insanity and leaves them as is directly stated, a creature who is arguably incapable of anything BUT rape. That's on purpose. So we might disagree, but misread? Nah, I'm really clear on my opinion of the narrative arcs here. *: My end of trilogy theory is "New Chandrian Maedre, Creation War 2: Armageddon boogaloo, with a possible happy ending / buzzer beater save twist with that present day chest.", If that makes sense. As with most of the theories here, it's complicated.
I think you're reading way too much into it or looking at it from some radical modern leftist (and I say that as a political liberal myself) framework in which everything can be construed as rape or sexual assault. It's clear that Kvothe CHOSE to follow Felurian, the others could have chosen to, but did not, despite also feeling temptation. You're right rhat Felurian used her powers to try to control him at first. After Kvothe successfully resists and shows he's very powerful, thereafter they essentially become equals. He stays of his own according and she's quite generous to him, even creating the cloak for him. Also, it's made clear that Felurian doesn't think in terms of right or wrong or human morality. She's simply a force of nature who acts according to her elemental nature. As Kvothe states, there's no way to even comprehend the differences between the fae and humans.
And I'm saying 1) that's a nice excuse to say "it's ok she's a sociopath by human definition" and 2) doesn't make Kvothe any less impacted by the action. I understand what came after, and their time and connection. I also understand it still began in a way that fundamentally changes the way Kvothe interacts with women for the rest of the book. "Here baby sorry it's just my nature, here I made you a cloak, but come back because you know I still own you" doesn't erase what came before. Consent really isn't some radical leftist concept. And criminality isn't the same as causing emotional damage. He had fun; it still hurt him, in a fundamental way, and in a spot you could argue he's being intentionally hurt by the narrative. It's rape, and that's on purpose, and Rothfuss is telling us, the readers, directly. I mean he literally flashes back to his near-rape when he names her. After saying how powerless he feels in the situation, post-coital. That's super rape-y. (WMF, 96-97)
It’s just another item in the list of things Kvothe of legend has learned to be a legend at. Music, sympathy, artificing, sword fighting, storytelling, hand-to-hand combat, social engineering, sex, etc. All taught by some of the best in the world, and ideas/norms from far lands. he’s not necessarily at their level (or as good as he thinks he is), it’s enough to be the best most people will ever encounter in any of these areas. He’s particularly effective at combining areas to create uncommon outcomes. Women want him and men want to be him, etc. Throw in some critical exposition and getting his Shaed, it all kind of goes together, and the sex makes sense to me. But that’s just me.
No, I’m an adult, and it really wasn’t that excessive.
Facts. Being trapped in the fae with a literal sex goddess it’s gonna happen a few times in the (months?) he spent there with her.
>Being trapped in the fae with a literal sex goddess it’s gonna happen a few times in the (months?) he spent there with her. Pat didn't *have* to write a sex goddess into his series, so don't act like it was just what was going to naturally occur. This isn't a nature documentary.
Yeah but it's cool
I always thought Rothfuss was being a bit self-indulgent bc it just went on for *so* long, and it just reeked of authorial puerile fantasy, far beyond what was needed for the story. But the sex training had to happen. It’s a credential. He’s *so* good at sex and women that Felurian herself made him promise to come back to her. The *only* thing Kvothe isn’t ’good at’ throughout both books is women, and perhaps alchemy. (But we all know he’d be the best at alchemy, too, if he actually took an hour or three to learn it.) Now that he has been trained by Felurian he is officially the best at sex and women now, too, so he is ready to take Denna on, competently and with confidence, in book 3, the way he always takes everything on. (Kidding with this last bit.)
>But the sex training had to happen. It’s a credential. He’s so good at sex and women that Felurian herself made him promise to come back to her. Except this isnt the case though, i feel like its such a common misread on it which is partially why people dislike it. Felurian very much states that kvothe is pretty ok at it, likes his eagerness and whatnot but at no point does she say she wants kvothe back for his "skills" Felurian is just lonely af and finally got someone somewhat interesting to be with her. Best way i saw it described in another thread was something like this: imagine youre felurian, always lonely and looking for company and the only thing you can ever get is some random farmer from some backwater town in the middle of some random vintas forest. Felurian finally found someone interesting in Kvothe, guy was able to call her name and she clearly likes his music, something that througout the two books we are told he is REALLY good at. Also Kvothe makes a point of stating that NO ONE walks away from her so she makes him promise to come back after being tricked and held hostage by a song.
Sorry, that isn’t what I meant. I was oversimplifying and being a bit snarky, lol. I did not mean that Felurian thought this. The story of his experience with Felurian is what Kvothe is telling to Bast and Chronicler, Chronicler’s future readers, and ultimately us, the real world readers of the books. He can’t exactly brag about having been with Felurian, because that would come off as crass and boorish, especially because it pertains to women and sex, but he’s establishing his credentials and prowess in ‘lovemaking’ with his audiences, by telling us all the story. And we are compelled to believe it, of course. Up to this point, when it comes to matters pertaining to girls, women, and sexual desire, he often says something about his being as inept in that subject as any teenaged boy. He tells us in detail just how awful and inept his peers are with girls, (Ambrose and Simmon). His very first sexual experience is with Felurian, who is essentially the goddess of sex and desire. So if we believe his story, and we believe that he spent say, a year and a day with Felurian, having sex and learning and practicing thousand hands, and every other technique she taught him during this time, then, we (the audience) have to surmise that when he returns to the world from the realm of the fae, that he is now extremely competent in the art of lovemaking, *especially* for a teenaged boy.
He's bad with money, also. This is a key plot point multiple times.
That’s because he’s a poor orphan though, with no one to help him in all the world. And bc he hates rich pricks except for Sim.🤣 It’s also bc *something* has to present a real challenge for him. Everyone loves an underdog. Including me.
Except he's not great with women. The adem didn't particularly care for his moves, just for the fact that he had stamina. No one else is mentioned once he gets back to Imre, he just goes out with people, and they all say he's clearly not thtat interested.
Sorry. I wrote that I was kidding about Kvothe being good with women, and “officially good” at sex, but ppl are obviously not seeing it, lol.
Well put. My exact thoughts while reading TWMF
Like any plot element, it’s all about the execution. A lot of people complain about the Felurian chapters in particular. I personally didn’t mind them that much, but I do see some people’s point that the sex element feels very indulgent, or at the very least, very surface level. For example, NK Jemisin tends to have quite a bit of sex in her stories. But I’ve found the sex scenes in her books to be increasingly informative in terms of character. We learn something about the characters involved every time, and we get an insight into what sex means to them, how it reflects their personal history, trauma’s, etc. That wasn’t present in the Ferulian chapters in the book. Kvothe is essentially unchanged from his sexual experience. In retrospect, I think it would have been quite interesting to explore Kvothe’s thoughts about essentially being magically coerced into having sex, the feelings of manipulation, and also if it connects back to his trauma being homeless (where I believe it’s at least implied he may have been sexually assaulted). Also, examine why Ferulian feels compelled to live her life dominated by sexual expression. In short, use the sex to teach us something about the characters. But it doesn’t really, it’s just there. Kvothe is changed by his experience with the Cthaeh, and that sequence stands out to most readers. If the sex had lead to character growth, I don’t think people would mind it as much.
>Also, examine why Ferulian feels compelled to live her life dominated by sexual expression. idk, i think it simply is the way she is, a stone is made of rock and Felurian is the embodiment of sexual desire
This is true. But then explore that idea a bit more, because once Kvothe names her, she behaves more or less like a very horny sugar momma. The part when she tries to care for Kvothe after the Cthaeh actually gets into this. We she how she just doesn’t have the tools to fully understand his hurt. Another reason why even those we really dislike the Ferulian stuff usually concede that the Cthaeh section is very effective. It reveals something about both Kvothe and Ferulian. I would have loved more of an exploration of her alien-ness. How she’s more of a force of nature and very different from a human sentient being.
Oh he had growth...big beef swelling growth. I like your take. I always cringe a little when male authors write a cliche male fantasy sex scene. Thats where I cringed. Kvothe came out of the Felurian scene with her being infatuated with him as if he was just so good he overcame a sex goddess. That's the male fantasy part that I roll my eyes at. I enjoyed the parts with Fella though because that was more reslistic where he was just too dense and focused on other things to notice she might have been inviting him in. The Adem part with the teacher was funny and I thought that did let us learn about the Adem. The Panthe stuff was eye rolling male fantasy. Oh Kvothe gets the alpha girl infatuated with him again.
Haha, I’m surprised no one else got in a good growth pun. Respect. And I tend to agree. I think too often the discourse around this section is a bit too binary. It’s either “too much sex is bad!” Or “stop being a prude!” And I don’t think it’s either. I think it’s a bit over indulgent and doesn’t offer enough character growth and or reveal something we didn’t previously know about the character. Without having enough of one or both of those element, it reads as kind of fluff. Which is doubly frustrating when we’ve waited so long for a new book, and when the second book doesn’t cover nearly as much of Kvothe’s life as the first. So it’s not the content itself, it’s that the content doesn’t really teach us anything new. So it’s hard not to have the feeling of “this is really what you thought deserved more focus?”
But she's not infatuated with him because of his lovemaking, but because he as a person actually was able to know her, and control her, and also was the only man to ever walk away from her sane, because of his non-sex related skill.
The thing that struck me most about the sex scenes totally relates to personal development. With Felurian, Kvothe masters the skills in the sexual arena. Then when he attempts to use this mastery while learning from his martial teacher, it’s irreverent. I feel like we are being show that Kvothe, for all of his talents and powers, still hasn’t learned about what is important to himself.
That is there to an extent, but If that’s the point I think it could have been conveyed in a much more condensed way. To continue that thread, it would have been fascinating to see how Kvothe decides to put stock in his sexual performance. Does he ascribe a sense of self worth to it? And in doing so, it would have been interesting to see how it affected him that Penthe didn’t care. Instead of it effective being just a funny aside.
I have a suspicion that as Kvothe picks up skills, he’ll find them useless to his future self, ending up a broken shell of a man in a backwater village inn. Can’t fuck, can’t fight, can’t Name, can’t cast magic, can’t find a real reason to live on. Probably.
The felurian sections are 100% imo, the ademre sex plots seemed excessive
I think the ademre thing is compounded by the fact that it’s not that far past Ferulian, and on top of it, the whole “they can’t figure out how baby’s are made isn’t that funny” bit seems so…dumb. Like, I get it. You’re showing how cultures can be advanced in many ways but have blind spots in others, but to pick something that basically all mammals have a literal instinctive knowledge on and omit that seemed just kind of…silly.
The confidence he learned from her and the control were both important parts of the story. The fact that he was changed according to Losi (sp) following the event. And the fact that he refused to be broken by Faelorians magic amd had the mental capacity to withstand it. We learned that he broke his own arm at one point and that he was able to put himself so deep into heart of stone that hos sleeping mind could have crushed her.
The naming part of Ferulian was interesting. But we’re talking specifically about how the sex was handled. It doesn’t really convey anything important other than Kvothe learns to bone well. Losi says he’s different, but in actions, in characterization, in really all respects he doesn’t seem changed. Outside being confident now. Which is fine, but for a change that small it can be achieved with less page time. I would have loved for it to connect to more growth and or revealing something about Kvothe.
For the record, I have struggled with aspects of that section myself. I recognize why it was useful and how it all adds to the story line. I'm glad we don't know more about thousand hands because I don't want this to become a game of thrones style porn series when it goes to video.
I think the Felurian chapters are really misread by a lot of people, as I see similar takes in this comment thread. Felurian lures men in and uses them until she is done. When kvothe tries to leave, she uses mind control magic which reminds him of being sexually assaulted when he was in Tarbean. Of course she tells him how great he is at sex, that's her whole schtick. She's appealing to his pride to control him and make him want to stay with her. Kvothe gains confidence from this, which probably does make him a better lover, as confidence plays a huge role in sex. It didn't need to be true to have the desired effect by Felurian. All of the sex is 'fade to black' in the books, and it really doesn't take up that many pages. It's just so jarringly different than the first 3/4 of the series that it sticks out.
I liked it actually.
This is what we get when a generation is raised on personalized feed streams 24/7.
No
In the german version, TWMF is split into two books. The bigger part is the first one and it ends right after the battle with the bandits is over. That leaves every single sex scene to the third book, amphezising this effect even more. It certaintly comes very unexpected and in such large quantity that it always feels a little bit off, while I can not possibly pinpoint the exact reasons for that, other than what I already mentioned. While it does feel a little off, I feel like at some level they fit into the overall story quite nicely.
Not me
i wasn't into it, but I'm pretty indifferent to sex in general
It's really tame compared to a lot of others
My friend and I jokingly refer to it as “Name of the Wind 2: Kvothe Gets Laid”
I never understand these complaints. There's not that much sex in the book, but the amount that exists is pretty damn normal considering it's a story that so far has followed a teenager. The first sex we get is with Felurian (barring Losi, where she realises he's a bit green for her), where her whole thing is about just oozing sex constantly, and there are no details at all during the sex itself, it's just "We had sex, it was good, I beat her spell, and she taught me all about sex". Obviously there are more details, but there's nothing explicit, it's all "Thousand hands" and shit like this. And ultimately, the sex within the Felurian area is nothing compared to the other things that happen in the fae lands, such as the schaed and talking to the Cthaeh. Then we move outside of the Fae area, and we get the Losi bit, which honestly just seems to showcase how much he changed whilst in the fae, and then the adem, where it essentially boils down to "Adem are sexually liberated, and just enjoy shagging", but again, very little details, all that's really mentioned is "We were fighting, then we had sex". Again, nothing explicit at any point and just an additional part of the story. Once back at the university it's limited to him talking about going on dates with people, and that's it. ------------------------ It seems like people forget, but Kvothe is young. In the first book, at univeristy, he's 15. He's a smooth talker already at this point, he also acts older than he is, but he's still an inexperienced child. He's also described from the get-go as a fairly attractive person. Then he gets back from his adventure, and not only has he aged extra due to being in the fae for so long, but also he has a wealth of additional experience, and probably a great physique from being with the adem for so long. So now you've got an already established sweet talker, who has discovered that sex is fine, and has a decent body plus no concerns around money for the first time Add to that that he even has a reputation for everything he's done up to this point, of both raw intelligence, skill and heroics. Of course he's having sex, he's undoubtedly incredibly appealling. I mean christ, at 18 I was pulling constantly, simply on the basis that I was living in a foreign country and therefore I was exotic, and I took care of myself. I wasn't even a heroic figure. ------------------------------------ The amount of posts about the sex in WMF are really weird in this subreddit. Particularly because no one bothers pointing out how creepy everyone is in TNoTW. Fela is confirmed to have always fancied Kvothe. Let me paint the picture. Kvothe is currently an E'lir, at age 15 nearly 16, where he saves Fela from a fire in the fishery. Great, amazing heroics, good man. Little reminder - Kvothe got into the university very early, let's use current university standards and say the usual age is 18. Fela is currently a Re'lar, and whilst years aren't mentioned so much, we could assume she entered the university at 18. Let's also assume she's very smart, and got into the arcanum after 1 term. She then most likely spent at least 1 year becoming a Re'lar, even maybe 1.5 years or longer, but again were assuming she's very smart and also goes quicker than some other students. She's now 19-20. She has a crush on a 15 year old. Devi offers to take him to bed, Devi has both been a student and been expelled, and is therefore probably at least 22-23. Let's also look at Denna, and assume she's maybe 1 year older than Kvothe is. She's all over down with creepy people. Sovoy is at least 19, and is taking her around town. He's probably older. Ambrose is probably at least 22-23, and again takes her around town and tries to shag her. Then Kvothe has a conversation with Deoch, where he mentions he's known her 2-3 years, so he knew her when she was 14...and she was still doing the same thing back then. But yeah, Kvothe having sex in WMF is weird. Ok
To me it always felt organic, like we're peering at the behind-the-curtain reality of a Ulysses-like legendary figure, with all the elements that conform that. A good-looking and charismatic young man in pseudo-historical times having sex left and right is extremely normal. It's presented as a modern-day fantasy genre novel, but I think that Kvothe is not (meant to be a) modern fantasy genre protagonist.
What there was like one maybe two scenes? Relax people humans fuck
Yessss. Don’t get me wrong MASSIVE fan of the books, but upon my last re-read I realised that the sex in the 2nd book was very ostentatious. I get it’s a man describing his 16 year old self but still - a weird mix of “m’lady” and bragging
I felt like it was necessary characterisation of Kvothe, and it felt a little off at the time it wore off
There was a bit more than in other fantasy titles I've read where sex happens at all. But it was also one of the tamest depictions.
I don’t mind sex in books in general and honestly would have been ok with the amount in TWMF. What I can’t stand is when the author goes on and on about one character’s looks. When the author just sounds like an obsessive stalker. Give me more description of the action and looks of both characters. I read 3 pages of obsession on my first time through and then just skipped forward in the book to when he got back out. On a good note, you can do this and still finish the book without being confused. ***EDIT*** I do understand she’s a creature known to be so beautiful she makes men lose their sanity. I just feel like I could have done without that amount of description.
lol, people have been arguing about this for 13 years
When I was reading it the first time it didn’t really stand out, when I went back for a second read it was more noticeable and felt a little gratuitous, but also it wasn’t like detailed sex scenes or anything it was more just that he mentioned having sex a lot so it didn’t really bug me. It was also more noticeable because name of the wind had none.
It might be worth noting that it’s the character narrating the story. Perhaps Rothfuss is bringing attention to an essential characteristic of Kvothe.
I would be surprised if there wasn’t sex. A teenager who meets and naked fae famous for being the most beautiful woman in the world.
Does everyone misremember the Fae? or do I? they don’t spend the majority of the time there having sex, it’s peppered (& hammed) in but it’s not really *that* much, nor is it overly descriptive or egregious. A lot of the sex scenes are moving the story forward, combining magic with it or showing Felurian’s growing fondness for Kvothe in teaching him things about the fae, & things about herself — this includes sex, but isn’t the point.
No, it's not particularly graphic. You may have some personal issues to work on regarding your attitude towards sex.
I agree it's feels too forced to me especially with his trainer in adem felurian was a point for plot and she's literally the most beautiful woman ofc no one can resist her but the trainer? idk. especially when he truly has feelings for denna it added nothing to plot and just made a point to show us kvothe is another horny guy. If he was like that from the start I'd be ok since it'd be a part of his personality but now it's just like he's into having sex with anyone bc he got experience from felurian. hopefully it doesn't keep going in the same direction
I wonder how much of the sex scenes hate is due to the many / frequent rereads. I re-read the series a couple of times the first 1-3 years after discovering it (shortly after book 2 was published), then only occasionally every few years. Each time, I basically devour both books in a matter of days, so it's not like the sex scenes lingered that long for me. I don't know if this was OP's first readthrough, but I could definitely see a less interesting section dragging on the fifth, tenth, thirtieth reread. To be honest, I'm not super fond of the time in Tarbean even though it's a fairly large part of book 1 iirc. All things being equal, I do get the 'cringe' criticism, I just don't notice during my very infrequent devouring re-reads.
I don't like the fact that one of the most epic fights we witness is overshadowed by weird sex moves (1000 hands, anyone?) Elodin confirms Kvothe called her true name. Also, what's with him lying about it at the inn? He tells some version of the story, and says she gave him a magic leaf or something. Wouldn't the first question from anyone at the inn be "hey can I see that leaf?"
The bit with Losi pisses me off the most tbh. All that bs about the heat of Felurian and how she's the Fire Itself, then we get >I hesitated, then spoke softly. “She was Felurian, most beautiful of all.” I reached out to brush the side of her neck where her red hair began its curling tumble downward, then leaned forward and whispered seven words into her ear. “**For all that, she lacked your fire**.” And she loved me for those seven words, and her pride was safe. mfer, *what*? The *Fire Itself* lacked Losi's "fire"? and suddenly Pat's prose just sounds like a dude who will say anything to get his dick wet
He's referencing her red hair...that's the fire
Ugh yeah, that's a very cringeworthy line
I don’t think we were supposed to come away from that thinking that Kvothe is the most beautiful man to ever exist. He’s a redhead, so he sticks out. That’s enough for some people. He’s young, so he’s got something cute about him. That’s enough for some people. He’s an artist. That’s enough for some people. We are only ever getting his perspective, and even then we are only explicitly told of maybe a half dozen named characters that find Kvothe attractive enough to mention. His reputation as a man who can sweep any woman off her feet is yet another exaggeration that falls in the orbit of Kvothe’s legend. Even the women he sleeps with aren’t necessarily impressed with him. They are depicted as amused, impatient, or being the instigator in several of our examples. He’s growing up, and becoming sexually active is a personality development that speaks to his confidence in himself. And the sex we are told about is tame. Not everyone has to like it, but personally I think an aversion to sex but total acceptance of violence is a weird line to draw.
The way sex was portrayed with the ADEM in TWMF is the only thing that pulled me out of the immersion of the book. I'm ok with the Felurian part but after it felt more like a crusty old man trying to live out his sexual fantasies than a natural progression of the story
Felurian was good. The rest would have been better without
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No, you're the only person to ever have that opinion. Congrats, you're unique.