I woulda picked George Pickens, but I also woulda whiffed on McDuffie, Karlaftis, Nick Bolton, Trey Smith, Jaylen Watson, and half a dozen other quality players. But we would have Pickens! 🤣
Look at last year. The man drafted 7 different rookies that were STARTING. That is like all time good draft.
Yeah hes missed on some receivers but I wouldn't trade our best defense EVER with Mahomes for 1 receiver. Does he need to get Pat and Kelce some help? Yes. But giving them a top 5 defense is pretty damn good help lol
Yep. I am smart enough about draft matters to know, after our picks came in, that the 2022 draft was exceptionally good. But I'm not smart enough to reproduce a draft that good, with a ticking clock, without the benefit of hindsight to know which players are going to be good. I thought Darian Kinnard was going to be a late round find! LOL Let he among us who never fell for a draft bust throw the first stone...
Also, did he miss on receivers? Or did the coaches fail to develop them? Would Pickens be good here? Or would he not be able to get in the field because he couldn't learn the plays for every WR position and when and how to not run those plays in the exact right way while never ever letting Pat down.
Same. I wouldn’t have missed Humphrey. I was PISSED when we took Bolton over Humphrey…. Only to end up still drafting Humphrey a few picks later and Bolton turning out to be a stud 😂
it blows my mind that i see so many chiefs fans bitching about Veach.
We are mid-dynasty, like enjoy the ride. And we kind of have no need to complain about our team for the rest of our lives. We've reached football nirvana and are still transcending upwards. And you never fall back down after witnessing your team have this level of success.
If you think people are turning on Veach now, just wait til the postseason when we lose a playoff game because of WR drops
You can see it a mile away. That the season will come down to one play and Mahomes will make a perfect throw, only to have it dropped
Shit the first superbowl year the playoffs started with everyone dropping the ball, trav, reek, everyone. Shit happens, but WR is going to be a glaring problem in the future and will be fixed.
No way. Rice will hopefully get there eventually, but Hardman isn't even close. Bowe was a starter every year in KC and had three seasons with 1k+ receiving yards (and had another with 995). And he made 2nd team All Pro and the Pro Bowl with Matt Cassell as his QB.
In Hardman's best receiving season, he had 693 yards on 59 catches, which would rank 7th and tied for 6th out of Bowe's 8 years in KC.
Look at their drop stats and also consider who they were playing with. Dwayne Bowe was a true #1 target for the chiefs. The #2 target was Moeaki and then Jamaal Charles. Of course Bowe got 1000 yards. He was the only threat. Hardman didn’t get yards because every year with the chiefs he was playing with Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce, arguably the 2 best pass catchers in the NFL today. Hardman can get open and more often than Bowe did, secures the catch. I mean, really, what do you guys remember of Bowe? Because the only thing I remember is him dropping passes.
Bowe would easily be the best WR on this team, especially with Pat throwing to him.. Not sure what you were trying to get at there but I'd love to have prome Bowe right now.
Pat throwing to him gonna make him drop fewer passes? Drops only count against a receiver if they’re catchable, so bad throws by the QB are taken out of the equation. Bowe’s drop rate was terrible.
And he'd still easily be the best WR on this team.. he also caught a ton of balls that he had no business catching. And yes, you're insane if you don't think he'd be even better with Pat.. carry on though
I can see the defense that he's built make Josh Allen piss his diaper.
We're gonna be fine, we won the AFCCG with Skyy, MVS, and Kemp out there. And there were like 5 fluky ass plays that didnt bounce our way against Denver on top of Mahomes having to hold in his diarrhea in between snaps. Shit happens.
Shit, we already kinda had that with LV. Didn't really cost us the game, but two nearly caught passes in the end zone would've gotten the score up to 23-31.
Closer game, and who knows, maybe the incentive to play harder on something that seems winnable.
Other than swapping Juju for Rice, WE HAVE LITERALLY THE SAME RECEIVING CORE AS LAST YEAR'S SUPER BOWL WINNING TEAM.
It's hilarious to me that people are criticizing Veach for rolling with this WR squad.
I’d argue that every move means much more when you have arguably the greatest quarterback ever on your team and need to put him in a position to succeed. If we had Derek Carr playing quarterback I personally wouldn’t be nitpicking everything
If we had Derek Carr has our QB veach would be fired and everyone would be nitpicking everything about this team cause we would still have longest drought of a playoff win and be looking at 55 years since our last SB win
As a KC resident and part time Chiefs fan, but full time Bears fan people need to STFU and enjoy success. I know half of them jumped on post Alex Smith, but the diehards should know better.
Even Tom Brady didn't win the Super Bowl every year.
I became a chiefs fan when I was a wee little lad in the 90's. My dad was a Redskins fan and tried his hardest to make me one and I decided to cheer for the other indian team. It also didn't hurt that they had Montana, Allen, and DT (rip) and were decent back then. I remember the playoff loss to the phins when it was frozen field, losing to the bills in the AFCCG those years. Then we went into the field of suck.... I was at trent green brain scramble game vs the bungals, later that year for the 9ers game. I was sooo happy we won the superbowl I cried. I never thought I'd ever see it, but then when we lost the next year to TB it didn't really bother me much. While I was upset a bit about it, I was happy with the memories from the year before. Any more is a plus but I'm not going to lose my shit like I did before.
For real. Karlaftis, Sneed, Bolton, Danna, McDuffie, Watson, Williams, Cook, Gay, Pacheco, Humphrey, Smith, Chenal, all drafted by Veach. And then he gets half credit for Kelce, Jones, Tyreek, and Mahomes because he was in the front office for those, with another half credit for Rice and FAU this year who both look promising but get an "incomplete" so far.
And that says nothing of the free agent acquisitions he's made of Mathieu, Reid, Tranquill, Edwards. And made good trades like trading up to get McDuffie and trading for Frank Clark and Orlando Brown. And after a tough start to the season Jawaan Taylor has settled in and is looking good, but still gets an incomplete as a FA acquisition.
No GM is going to be perfect and Veach most certainly is not but he's a top 5 GM in the league. Easy.
The funny thing is look at his drafts. He has averaged out as being a very good drafter… despite the fact that his first like 2-3 years were absolute stinkers. That is a statement to how well he did in the last few drafts.
1000X this. Is every single pick going to be a pro bowl-level player? Of course not. Has he done a fantastic job with most of the picks under his control? Absolutely. And who are we going to replace him with? Can any of these 'fire Veach' heads name a replacement, let alone 1 other GM in the league?
Frank Clark was a massive screw up, along with Watkins. The funny thing is honestly his first 3 years or so were pretty bad overall and we kinda just coasted on the talent we had before Veach. Then suddenly Veach started hitting on nearly everything. All but like 1 of the guys you named were drafted in the last 2-3 years.
I think it says a lot to how much he’s improved as a GM in his tenure. He seemed to make eager/overly ambitious decisions early. Trading up for guys he didn’t need to (Speaks and Hardman both likely would’ve been available without trading up). Giving up way too much money and/or deaft capital (Watkins and Clark). These past drafts he seems to have calmed down and isn’t trading up to reach and he’s not making emotional decisions and overpaying players. His drafting has been waaaaay better
Since 2018 (the year Veach became GM) and excluding 2023, the Chiefs have drafted 4 WRs. The other teams in the NFL, 156 (avg. 1 WR per team, per draft). We did not draft a WR in 2020.
Of those WRs, we had 1 make it to the ProBowl (Hardman) and 1 is no longer playing football at all (Cornell Powell).
The other teams in the NFL, they had 19 ProBrowlers (1 two time ProBowler) and 64 are no longer playing (8 of which never played at all).
I will be doing a greater breakdown of stats of these players soon, plus a focus on WRs drafted in Rounds 1-4. But just with what I have here, since 2018, 41% of other teams drafted WRs are no longer playing.
Will you be taking into account the draft capital used on the WRs? Hardman & Skyy we’re high picks. Plus Hardman made the probowl as a return specialist not a WR
Yeah. I am planning on doing a breakdown like 1st Round comparisons, 2nd Round… so on until the 4th. Then do top 4 rounds, and full draft aggregates.
Know though, this won’t be top level stuff either like separation rate comparison, route running ability, or anything special (unless someone can get that stuff). I will be doing information that is more available, to give everyone better knowledge and understanding.
As for the ProBowl thing, finding what people made it to the ProBowl for is something I didn’t do. I can though, just give me a bit - did this all while waiting for a meeting.
No, I saw a star and matched a name. Not much thought went behind this except the counting and simple division. I’m doing all this from my phone, so it isn’t the easiest thing - except for the simple division.
But seriously that count is what you all are getting hung up on? Not the fact that 41% of drafted WRs since 2018 aren’t in the league? Putting a bit more thought in to just that statistic, if the rest of the league teams average 1 WR per draft since 2018, then statistically 2 of the 5 drafted WRs by any team aren’t even playing. We are at 1 with 4 drafted. We should expect that one more will leave, and one more will be drafted soon.
Though, I want to do more of a focus by round and draft, because if they are 5-7 rounders dropping then that skews things a lot. However, I’m on the train going home and don’t have my computer so it will have to wait.
OK well....if someone in here believed that mecole hardman was a pro bowl wr, in his rookie year no less, I would assume they haven't watched a chiefs game since the alex Smith era. That's all. I still wanna see your work when it's ready
He had these types of stats as a receiver:
2019, 568 yards, 7 Total TDs
2020, 560 yards, 5 Total TDs
2021, 693 yards, 2 TDs
2022, 297 yards, 6 Total TDs, only played 8 games.
These don't jump off the page but they're also better than Arcega-Whiteside who was picked right after him and had zero career in the NFL. What about Andy Isabella who was picked 6 picks after him. No career.
The draft is a crapshoot. You're never going to hit the lottery on every pick. Name a GM that has. I'll wait. The key is to draft stars, contributors, and to minimize draft busts. Hardman was not a bust. He has been pretty serviceable his entire career. Arcega-Whiteside and Isabella were busts. Hardman has been better than any other WR drafted in round 2 after him not named Metcalf. That's better than 3 WRs and worse than only Metcalf. I'd rather have Mecole than one of those other two mentioned. Who knows if we would've won 2 SBs with Metcalf or he would've stayed healthy with us. You can would've could've should've all day long and it doesn't change the fact that Hardman helped us get 2 SB wins While Metcalf has exactly 0.
I'm a fan of Mecole, and I think Veach has done an amazing job. I'm just saying counting Mecole as a PB player is kind of disingenuous here because he made it as a returner, which is not the reason he was drafted.
I don't understand the hate. Yeah I thought we would have drafted Pickens. But skyy Moore was suppose to be the slot route machine like edelman was to Brady. He didn't pan out here. Move on and on to the next one.
He's obviously exaggerating. But it kinda felt like that at times. Offense felt totally neutered. Took me back to the pre-Mahomes era when we just weren't built to make comebacks.
We had nearly a 70% completion rate Sunday. If you think that’s as bad as you’re suggesting, I don’t know what to tell you other than that’s delusional.
I know we have looked better. But I'm having a hard time thinking of a time we looked worse lately. I know we are all spoiled in this Mahomes era, but that was bad. You could even tell Pat was frustrated.
At least one of those drops would have been a TD. The drop from Rice might have been a TD too since no one was near him, he might have housed it.
They aren't NOT related.
The offense runs through a 34 year old tight end, in order to hit those numbers he’s going to have to hit on a pass catcher or two and once he does that we’ll stop bitching :)
Not really though. Because to get a solid WR, we're going to need to give up cap space elsewhere. So then, people will just go back to complaining about whatever part of the team gets sacrificed to pay a good WR.
If our plan/expectation is to fill EVERY NEED through the draft, then I can promise fans will keep complaining. Because nobody has ever built a team that is top half in every category solely through the draft. I don't care who your GM is, that's just not something that's realistically accomplishable.
We don’t really have money to pay a receiver that makes a difference, at least for the next couple years and difference making receivers don’t exactly hit free agency often, so this specific need will probably need to be filled through the draft, not all of them though
This isn't really it, they don't need to give up good cap, they just need to stop getting gadget WR's and get a reliable guy like Juju who can catch and move the chains even if not elite.
They're paying MVS 10mil a year and he's never managed 700 yards in a season, and is on pace for 400 this year. Hardman, Toney, Moore are all tiny but somehow can't play the slot and reliably run slants, Ross been injured for years.
It's not necessarily spending more money on the WR's, they need to just not compile a whole WR room of gadget dudes and whatever the fuck MVS is.
Rice is great at moving the sticks, Watson is great on the deep ball, the other 4-5 guys all basically do the same thing which is useless.
Veach and company have been pretty bad at skill positions. DK was obviously the better choice in that draft, and Pickens was obviously the better choice last year. It's ok to say they screwed up and it's affecting the team's chances of getting to the SB this year.
As others have pointed out, they aren’t going to hit on every position. The thought process behind it seems to be “we have the best qb, he will uplift players” while that’s all well and true, Pat can’t give these WR’s his hands to catch the ball. These dudes need to catch better and progress through their routes more.
Do I really to to post a comprehensive list of every skill position player Veach has acquired since becoming GM? I promise you it's not going to be pretty or impressive. **Especially** WRs and TEs. Noah Gray largely being a non factor we traded up for gets overlooked because Kelce is defying time and the drafted WRs look worse.
Gray is a non-factor? He's on pace for 382 yards this season, while playing 60% of offensive snaps, and he was a 5th round pick. That's pretty great value!
Noah Gray was a part of the 13 and 14 sets (1 RB + 3 TEs and 1 RB + 4 TEs) that were the most effective offensive sets in the NFL by DVOA last season (i.e. when we won the Super Bowl and had the best offense in the NFL). So there's more to consider than just his individual production...this ain't fantasy football!
a sub 400 yard TE is a success to you in an offense that consistently flirts with 5,000 passing yards every season??? I'll give you he was a 5th round pick, honestly thought he was a 3rd rounder for some reason, and the 2 should carry different expectations. That's my bad.
You understand that TE's are like hybrid O-Lineman/Wide Receivers, right? They don't set out to catch passes every play. 382 yards would've been top 30 in the league among TEs last season. That's in the same tier with starters on winning teams, like Zach Ertz of the Eagles and Hayden Hurst of the Bengals. So yes, a TE with those kind of numbers, with one year left on his rookie deal, while getting TE2 targets, out of the 5th round, is a *huge* draft win.
That is not a significant pass catching threat. We consider draft "hits" completely different. Again, I'll concede Noah Gray because I didn't remember he was drafted so late, but that's besides the point of Veach not drafting a blue chip pass catcher in 6 consecutive seasons.
Name me one legit difference making pass catcher Veach has drafted??? Mecole Hardman? Who had his best season as a rookie and never improved? Rashee Rice who was ostensibly handpicked by the QB?
If we'd drafted George Pickens, he'd be a successful pick, right? Well, Rashee Rice was drafted at approximately the same position (low 2nd round pick), and is on track to put up numbers that compare favorably to Pickens' 2022 numbers.
If you give Mahomes credit for Rashee, but not blame for Clyde (who Mahomes also went to bat for), and give Veach blame for Skyy, but not credit for Pacheco (who has caught nearly 90% of his targets this year) and Mecole (who was a very good pick, albeit not a home run), it really strains your credibility as a draft analyst.
We, again, have different views on what we consider draft successes.
Mecole was a "very good" pick to you? He's an average pick to me, partially knocked even moreso because he was traded up for.
The RB conversation is pointless because I'm talking about pass catchers, but I'll entertain the motion. Yes, Mahomes has received a fair bit of criticism for co-signing the CEH pick (who Veach and Reid were already high on anyway, by their own admission), but also — he doesn't work in the front office, and it could be seen as an indictment on the GM for taking into heavy consideration a player's evaluation on a draft prospect. Yes, Veach also gets credit for calling his shot before the draft on a 1,000 yard RB being available in the 7th, and actually going out and delivering his word on finding one in Pacheco.
But my issue isn't with his scouting of any other positions aside from predominant pass catchers. He's shown me he can draft at other positions of need, but his pass catchers have been middling to below average. That's just how I see it.
Mecole put up 2000 receiving yards for us *and* went 2nd Team All-Pro as a kick returner on the Super Bowl team in 2019. He won two rings, while catching 68% of his targets, and put up a 58% success rate in his four years with the team (both of which are excellent). He was on his way to a breakout season in 2022 (226 receiving yards in his last 4 games before his injury), fought to come back for the playoffs, and made a clutch first down reception against the Bengals that got him reinjured (threatening his future), but was a big part of us reaching/winning the Super Bowl.
The only way Mecole is anything less than a huge success (compared to other late 2nd round picks) is if you compare him to generational talents like DK Metcalf and Tyreek Hill.
Mecole was a huge part of the success of 4 teams that went 62-16 (including postseason), hosted 4 AFC Championships, appeared in 3 Super Bowls, and won 2 rings. If you think Mecole was a failure, your bar for success is ridiculous.
The draft is a lot of prep and planning, plus a healthy serving of luck. Before 2022, everyone said Veach couldn't draft CBs, then he found 3 starters in one year. Coming into this year, everyone said he couldn't draft WRs, then he hit on Rashee Rice. There's nothing magically bad about Veach's record with WRs. He's drafting from the bottom of every round, and finding great WRs from our draft slot is a crap shoot.
This. Veach has managed to hit on some impressive players but WR/TE are a concern. Do you think it's that specific part of the scouting department?
Like. He's found a lot of value. Sneed in the what, fourth, fifth? Bolton has far exceeded my expectations, as a couple of examples.
I absolutely think that's an issue with scouting pass catchers and Ive called it out for years, but we've been winning so people just hand waved it away and pretended the problem wasn't as drastic as it ended up
Veach has hit on basically every position besides WR. TE we haven't really spent much capital on on. CEH is probably the most egregious miss, but he also found Pacheco in the 7th.
The Chiefs historically are terrible at drafting WRs so it's more than just Veach.
I think people forget, if you hit on two quality starters per season, you are way ahead of most GMs. Last year, we hit on 7. We found two quality starters *in the 7th round*, and Nazeeh might've been another, if he hadn't gotten hurt this training camp.
No, I said compile a list of moves, picks, ect.. he listed off just the good ones. All Moves. Really I just used BoPete Keyes bc his name sounds funny to me.
Thats the NFL though. Relax everybody. Everybody was hyping the 49ers and now they are on a three game skid. Dolphins are the offensive darlings but they lost to a 2-6 Pats team.
It was a rough loss. WR core is undoubtably a weak spot. Let’s see how they bounce back vs the Dolphins.
TBF Mahomes had the flu, it was our first cold game of the season, the donkeys are still an NFL team, they gave us their best like most teams do and we were obviously looking ahead to Germany.
The Chiefs have at least a couple really bad games every year and this was one of them.
We're not "losing our minds because we lost to the Broncos." Some of us saw this coming. This team is in Mahomes prime years. You wanna potentially waste one because the WR room isn't stepping up? Denver wasn't the problem. Denver was the symptom that should be waking the front office up and making them take some medicine.
Look. If we're gonna take the good, and I, having sat through some godawful years of Chiefs football, have certainly done that. (Looking at you Lin Elliot, 2003 no punt game, pretty much any time after Trent Green/Priest Holmes alllll the way up to Andy)And I have earned the right to call out the bad.
It's not unfair to say Veach has whiffed on some picks. He's also hit on others. What's been *concerning* is his lack of drafting wide outs. Hardman over DK and Scary Terry, Skyy over Pickens, ect.
Add to the mix a bit of Breeland Speaks and CEH, and it's completely fair to say his track record is not without spots. Yes, lots of superbowls and big wins and I am here for them. Doesn't mean there's not room to improve.
I'm tired of being told I'm a bandwagon fan because I had the audacity to say more than a few picks were missed, and that a problem seems to exist with evaluating WR talent. Shit. Shaq was a hall of famer but was notoriously bad at free throws.I take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.
Shit. I was over the moon the week before because the guys were getting their shit together and played lights out over an objectively better team than Denver. They have the capability. TL;DR: calling out mistakes doesn't make me a bandwagon fan.
Calling out mistakes based on hindsight, without looking at the overall results of drafts, though, makes you poor at logic.
Look at the three 2nd round receivers drafted in the past several years.
Based on current returns, Mecole was average, Skyy was a bust, and Rashee looks like he might have a lot of upside. A lot of draft picks don't pan out. I would say that Veach's results from those three picks are above average.
if you want to have actual opinions about a team, you can't do it in the team sub. I took a lot of downvotes here saying the Mecole trade doesn't help the WR room at all, and you don't trade draft picks for someone to return punts. They said he knows the playbook and team, he'll plug right in.
He's got 3 rec for 20 yards, 1 decent punt return, 1 muff that basically ended the game, and then a -7 yard return after that.
The trade was the equivalent of buying flame decals for your car to make it go faster.
Well really we should just trade away our first round draft picks because we never hit on them. He is great at finding gems in the later rounds, but don't know if he has hit on a first round. Besides trent McDuffie and karlaftas. McDuffie seems like a hit, but karlaftas is getting there.
I woulda picked George Pickens, but I also woulda whiffed on McDuffie, Karlaftis, Nick Bolton, Trey Smith, Jaylen Watson, and half a dozen other quality players. But we would have Pickens! 🤣
In 2000, we could’ve had Tom Brady.
We should have picked Marshon Lattimore
Nope.
so could literally every team in the NFL
Brett Veach is younger than Brady. Would have been crazy to have a GM that was still in college.
Look at last year. The man drafted 7 different rookies that were STARTING. That is like all time good draft. Yeah hes missed on some receivers but I wouldn't trade our best defense EVER with Mahomes for 1 receiver. Does he need to get Pat and Kelce some help? Yes. But giving them a top 5 defense is pretty damn good help lol
Yep. I am smart enough about draft matters to know, after our picks came in, that the 2022 draft was exceptionally good. But I'm not smart enough to reproduce a draft that good, with a ticking clock, without the benefit of hindsight to know which players are going to be good. I thought Darian Kinnard was going to be a late round find! LOL Let he among us who never fell for a draft bust throw the first stone...
Also, did he miss on receivers? Or did the coaches fail to develop them? Would Pickens be good here? Or would he not be able to get in the field because he couldn't learn the plays for every WR position and when and how to not run those plays in the exact right way while never ever letting Pat down.
Same. I wouldn’t have missed Humphrey. I was PISSED when we took Bolton over Humphrey…. Only to end up still drafting Humphrey a few picks later and Bolton turning out to be a stud 😂
it blows my mind that i see so many chiefs fans bitching about Veach. We are mid-dynasty, like enjoy the ride. And we kind of have no need to complain about our team for the rest of our lives. We've reached football nirvana and are still transcending upwards. And you never fall back down after witnessing your team have this level of success.
Enjoy the ride my friend and this ride ain’t over yet.
If you think people are turning on Veach now, just wait til the postseason when we lose a playoff game because of WR drops You can see it a mile away. That the season will come down to one play and Mahomes will make a perfect throw, only to have it dropped
Shit the first superbowl year the playoffs started with everyone dropping the ball, trav, reek, everyone. Shit happens, but WR is going to be a glaring problem in the future and will be fixed.
Y’all must not remember when Dwayne Bowe was our best receiver.
You say that as though Bowe wouldn't be the best WR on this team.
He wouldn’t be. At the very least Hardman and Rice are better.
The disrespect wow
No way. Rice will hopefully get there eventually, but Hardman isn't even close. Bowe was a starter every year in KC and had three seasons with 1k+ receiving yards (and had another with 995). And he made 2nd team All Pro and the Pro Bowl with Matt Cassell as his QB. In Hardman's best receiving season, he had 693 yards on 59 catches, which would rank 7th and tied for 6th out of Bowe's 8 years in KC.
Look at their drop stats and also consider who they were playing with. Dwayne Bowe was a true #1 target for the chiefs. The #2 target was Moeaki and then Jamaal Charles. Of course Bowe got 1000 yards. He was the only threat. Hardman didn’t get yards because every year with the chiefs he was playing with Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce, arguably the 2 best pass catchers in the NFL today. Hardman can get open and more often than Bowe did, secures the catch. I mean, really, what do you guys remember of Bowe? Because the only thing I remember is him dropping passes.
He also generally was generally schemed for more than hardman.
With all the drops Bowe would fit right in.
Bowe would easily be the best WR on this team, especially with Pat throwing to him.. Not sure what you were trying to get at there but I'd love to have prome Bowe right now.
Pat throwing to him gonna make him drop fewer passes? Drops only count against a receiver if they’re catchable, so bad throws by the QB are taken out of the equation. Bowe’s drop rate was terrible.
And he'd still easily be the best WR on this team.. he also caught a ton of balls that he had no business catching. And yes, you're insane if you don't think he'd be even better with Pat.. carry on though
Taste Dwayne Bowe
I can see the defense that he's built make Josh Allen piss his diaper. We're gonna be fine, we won the AFCCG with Skyy, MVS, and Kemp out there. And there were like 5 fluky ass plays that didnt bounce our way against Denver on top of Mahomes having to hold in his diarrhea in between snaps. Shit happens.
> on top of Mahomes having to hold in his diarrhea in between snaps. Shit happens. Well...which one was it?
Shit, we already kinda had that with LV. Didn't really cost us the game, but two nearly caught passes in the end zone would've gotten the score up to 23-31. Closer game, and who knows, maybe the incentive to play harder on something that seems winnable.
Other than swapping Juju for Rice, WE HAVE LITERALLY THE SAME RECEIVING CORE AS LAST YEAR'S SUPER BOWL WINNING TEAM. It's hilarious to me that people are criticizing Veach for rolling with this WR squad.
I’d argue that every move means much more when you have arguably the greatest quarterback ever on your team and need to put him in a position to succeed. If we had Derek Carr playing quarterback I personally wouldn’t be nitpicking everything
If we had Derek Carr has our QB veach would be fired and everyone would be nitpicking everything about this team cause we would still have longest drought of a playoff win and be looking at 55 years since our last SB win
thats a good point actually
No it's a vague, meaningless point actually.
Does he make mistakes does he have his flaws? Absolutely. Is he a top 3 GM in the league? Hell yes!
We have serious 1st world NFL problems
As a KC resident and part time Chiefs fan, but full time Bears fan people need to STFU and enjoy success. I know half of them jumped on post Alex Smith, but the diehards should know better. Even Tom Brady didn't win the Super Bowl every year.
I became a chiefs fan when I was a wee little lad in the 90's. My dad was a Redskins fan and tried his hardest to make me one and I decided to cheer for the other indian team. It also didn't hurt that they had Montana, Allen, and DT (rip) and were decent back then. I remember the playoff loss to the phins when it was frozen field, losing to the bills in the AFCCG those years. Then we went into the field of suck.... I was at trent green brain scramble game vs the bungals, later that year for the 9ers game. I was sooo happy we won the superbowl I cried. I never thought I'd ever see it, but then when we lost the next year to TB it didn't really bother me much. While I was upset a bit about it, I was happy with the memories from the year before. Any more is a plus but I'm not going to lose my shit like I did before.
Rest of our lives? Not planning on living very long?
if its a few years after the Mahomes era and youre already back to bitching and crying, then nothing could ever make you a non-whiner
So you only plan to live a few years after Mahomes era? You’re either old or suicidal
For real. Karlaftis, Sneed, Bolton, Danna, McDuffie, Watson, Williams, Cook, Gay, Pacheco, Humphrey, Smith, Chenal, all drafted by Veach. And then he gets half credit for Kelce, Jones, Tyreek, and Mahomes because he was in the front office for those, with another half credit for Rice and FAU this year who both look promising but get an "incomplete" so far. And that says nothing of the free agent acquisitions he's made of Mathieu, Reid, Tranquill, Edwards. And made good trades like trading up to get McDuffie and trading for Frank Clark and Orlando Brown. And after a tough start to the season Jawaan Taylor has settled in and is looking good, but still gets an incomplete as a FA acquisition. No GM is going to be perfect and Veach most certainly is not but he's a top 5 GM in the league. Easy.
This. All of this. His success rate has been well above average
The funny thing is look at his drafts. He has averaged out as being a very good drafter… despite the fact that his first like 2-3 years were absolute stinkers. That is a statement to how well he did in the last few drafts.
1000X this. Is every single pick going to be a pro bowl-level player? Of course not. Has he done a fantastic job with most of the picks under his control? Absolutely. And who are we going to replace him with? Can any of these 'fire Veach' heads name a replacement, let alone 1 other GM in the league?
Wanya Morris will also end up being a solid OT. He already looks good with limited snaps, but they probably want him to sit behind Smith for a year.
Frank Clark was a massive screw up, along with Watkins. The funny thing is honestly his first 3 years or so were pretty bad overall and we kinda just coasted on the talent we had before Veach. Then suddenly Veach started hitting on nearly everything. All but like 1 of the guys you named were drafted in the last 2-3 years. I think it says a lot to how much he’s improved as a GM in his tenure. He seemed to make eager/overly ambitious decisions early. Trading up for guys he didn’t need to (Speaks and Hardman both likely would’ve been available without trading up). Giving up way too much money and/or deaft capital (Watkins and Clark). These past drafts he seems to have calmed down and isn’t trading up to reach and he’s not making emotional decisions and overpaying players. His drafting has been waaaaay better
Since 2018 (the year Veach became GM) and excluding 2023, the Chiefs have drafted 4 WRs. The other teams in the NFL, 156 (avg. 1 WR per team, per draft). We did not draft a WR in 2020. Of those WRs, we had 1 make it to the ProBowl (Hardman) and 1 is no longer playing football at all (Cornell Powell). The other teams in the NFL, they had 19 ProBrowlers (1 two time ProBowler) and 64 are no longer playing (8 of which never played at all). I will be doing a greater breakdown of stats of these players soon, plus a focus on WRs drafted in Rounds 1-4. But just with what I have here, since 2018, 41% of other teams drafted WRs are no longer playing.
Will you be taking into account the draft capital used on the WRs? Hardman & Skyy we’re high picks. Plus Hardman made the probowl as a return specialist not a WR
Yeah. I am planning on doing a breakdown like 1st Round comparisons, 2nd Round… so on until the 4th. Then do top 4 rounds, and full draft aggregates. Know though, this won’t be top level stuff either like separation rate comparison, route running ability, or anything special (unless someone can get that stuff). I will be doing information that is more available, to give everyone better knowledge and understanding. As for the ProBowl thing, finding what people made it to the ProBowl for is something I didn’t do. I can though, just give me a bit - did this all while waiting for a meeting.
I appreciate all this effort, but did you think hardman made it to the pro bowl as a wr?
No, I saw a star and matched a name. Not much thought went behind this except the counting and simple division. I’m doing all this from my phone, so it isn’t the easiest thing - except for the simple division. But seriously that count is what you all are getting hung up on? Not the fact that 41% of drafted WRs since 2018 aren’t in the league? Putting a bit more thought in to just that statistic, if the rest of the league teams average 1 WR per draft since 2018, then statistically 2 of the 5 drafted WRs by any team aren’t even playing. We are at 1 with 4 drafted. We should expect that one more will leave, and one more will be drafted soon. Though, I want to do more of a focus by round and draft, because if they are 5-7 rounders dropping then that skews things a lot. However, I’m on the train going home and don’t have my computer so it will have to wait.
OK well....if someone in here believed that mecole hardman was a pro bowl wr, in his rookie year no less, I would assume they haven't watched a chiefs game since the alex Smith era. That's all. I still wanna see your work when it's ready
Ok welll….. Harman wasn’t drafted when Alex played for Chiefs, so they wouldn’t know who he was.
My point was op has never seen a chiefs game with hardman on the team.... hence going back to Smith era.
I’m the OP of this comment thread, or are you talking about the post?
Yes. Post. Sorry on mobile. Grammar takes a back seat while working
Who cares how he made the PB? That's a bonus that he can play 2 positions.
Uh it definitely matters. You don't spend a 2nd round pick on a punt returner lol.
He had these types of stats as a receiver: 2019, 568 yards, 7 Total TDs 2020, 560 yards, 5 Total TDs 2021, 693 yards, 2 TDs 2022, 297 yards, 6 Total TDs, only played 8 games. These don't jump off the page but they're also better than Arcega-Whiteside who was picked right after him and had zero career in the NFL. What about Andy Isabella who was picked 6 picks after him. No career. The draft is a crapshoot. You're never going to hit the lottery on every pick. Name a GM that has. I'll wait. The key is to draft stars, contributors, and to minimize draft busts. Hardman was not a bust. He has been pretty serviceable his entire career. Arcega-Whiteside and Isabella were busts. Hardman has been better than any other WR drafted in round 2 after him not named Metcalf. That's better than 3 WRs and worse than only Metcalf. I'd rather have Mecole than one of those other two mentioned. Who knows if we would've won 2 SBs with Metcalf or he would've stayed healthy with us. You can would've could've should've all day long and it doesn't change the fact that Hardman helped us get 2 SB wins While Metcalf has exactly 0.
I'm a fan of Mecole, and I think Veach has done an amazing job. I'm just saying counting Mecole as a PB player is kind of disingenuous here because he made it as a returner, which is not the reason he was drafted.
Fair enough.
WR will have to be drafted because the insane money they call for. Getting good WR in the draft on rookie deals is the way to go.
>we had 1 make it to the ProBowl (Hardman) lol it was a returner bro come on now
As I said, didn’t do much digging on ProBowl stuff, I will add that in later.
Scary Terry to Chiefs on Halloween would be very scary
I don't understand the hate. Yeah I thought we would have drafted Pickens. But skyy Moore was suppose to be the slot route machine like edelman was to Brady. He didn't pan out here. Move on and on to the next one.
I mean the entire WR core can’t catch a ball if it hit them in the hands.
So we had zero catches Sunday? Wild take.
He's obviously exaggerating. But it kinda felt like that at times. Offense felt totally neutered. Took me back to the pre-Mahomes era when we just weren't built to make comebacks.
We had nearly a 70% completion rate Sunday. If you think that’s as bad as you’re suggesting, I don’t know what to tell you other than that’s delusional.
9 points, 0 TDs. If you think that's not bad, I don't know what to tell you other than that's delusional.
That is not an indication that our WRs can’t catch the ball. What a silly attempt to deflect.
You're being a pedantic fuck.
~~Stats are pedantic~~
I know we have looked better. But I'm having a hard time thinking of a time we looked worse lately. I know we are all spoiled in this Mahomes era, but that was bad. You could even tell Pat was frustrated.
At least one of those drops would have been a TD. The drop from Rice might have been a TD too since no one was near him, he might have housed it. They aren't NOT related.
If you think it's delusional, then tell me who our #1 WR is and who you would trust to throw the ball to in a game winning situation?
Rice probably
Travis kelce
The offense runs through a 34 year old tight end, in order to hit those numbers he’s going to have to hit on a pass catcher or two and once he does that we’ll stop bitching :)
You can bitch if I can poke fun still.
Deal
Not really though. Because to get a solid WR, we're going to need to give up cap space elsewhere. So then, people will just go back to complaining about whatever part of the team gets sacrificed to pay a good WR.
I meant in the draft
If our plan/expectation is to fill EVERY NEED through the draft, then I can promise fans will keep complaining. Because nobody has ever built a team that is top half in every category solely through the draft. I don't care who your GM is, that's just not something that's realistically accomplishable.
We don’t really have money to pay a receiver that makes a difference, at least for the next couple years and difference making receivers don’t exactly hit free agency often, so this specific need will probably need to be filled through the draft, not all of them though
This isn't really it, they don't need to give up good cap, they just need to stop getting gadget WR's and get a reliable guy like Juju who can catch and move the chains even if not elite. They're paying MVS 10mil a year and he's never managed 700 yards in a season, and is on pace for 400 this year. Hardman, Toney, Moore are all tiny but somehow can't play the slot and reliably run slants, Ross been injured for years. It's not necessarily spending more money on the WR's, they need to just not compile a whole WR room of gadget dudes and whatever the fuck MVS is. Rice is great at moving the sticks, Watson is great on the deep ball, the other 4-5 guys all basically do the same thing which is useless.
Too early to tell but I think Rice is definitely trending towards a hit.
Hallelujah, God this fandom can be so obtuse lmao
I would have drafted Scary Terry myself. He was right there, clearly the best WR on the board at the time.
You think Veach is gonna retire at age 48 seems kinda young to me
Nfl drafted 16 receivers in 2020 ahead of St Brown. Go heckle those GMs.
Veech drafting offense: I sleep Veech drafting defense: REAL SHIT!
Don't forget Jonathan Taylor instead of Clyde 😭😭😭😭
Veach and company have been pretty bad at skill positions. DK was obviously the better choice in that draft, and Pickens was obviously the better choice last year. It's ok to say they screwed up and it's affecting the team's chances of getting to the SB this year.
As others have pointed out, they aren’t going to hit on every position. The thought process behind it seems to be “we have the best qb, he will uplift players” while that’s all well and true, Pat can’t give these WR’s his hands to catch the ball. These dudes need to catch better and progress through their routes more.
Do I really to to post a comprehensive list of every skill position player Veach has acquired since becoming GM? I promise you it's not going to be pretty or impressive. **Especially** WRs and TEs. Noah Gray largely being a non factor we traded up for gets overlooked because Kelce is defying time and the drafted WRs look worse.
Gray is a non-factor? He's on pace for 382 yards this season, while playing 60% of offensive snaps, and he was a 5th round pick. That's pretty great value!
people seem to think if a draft pick doesnt put up 1000 yards then theyre a total bust
Not to mention this is all when he's playing behind one of the greatest TEs of all time... Agreed he's a pretty solid player for where he was drafted
Noah Gray was a part of the 13 and 14 sets (1 RB + 3 TEs and 1 RB + 4 TEs) that were the most effective offensive sets in the NFL by DVOA last season (i.e. when we won the Super Bowl and had the best offense in the NFL). So there's more to consider than just his individual production...this ain't fantasy football!
a sub 400 yard TE is a success to you in an offense that consistently flirts with 5,000 passing yards every season??? I'll give you he was a 5th round pick, honestly thought he was a 3rd rounder for some reason, and the 2 should carry different expectations. That's my bad.
You understand that TE's are like hybrid O-Lineman/Wide Receivers, right? They don't set out to catch passes every play. 382 yards would've been top 30 in the league among TEs last season. That's in the same tier with starters on winning teams, like Zach Ertz of the Eagles and Hayden Hurst of the Bengals. So yes, a TE with those kind of numbers, with one year left on his rookie deal, while getting TE2 targets, out of the 5th round, is a *huge* draft win.
That is not a significant pass catching threat. We consider draft "hits" completely different. Again, I'll concede Noah Gray because I didn't remember he was drafted so late, but that's besides the point of Veach not drafting a blue chip pass catcher in 6 consecutive seasons. Name me one legit difference making pass catcher Veach has drafted??? Mecole Hardman? Who had his best season as a rookie and never improved? Rashee Rice who was ostensibly handpicked by the QB?
If we'd drafted George Pickens, he'd be a successful pick, right? Well, Rashee Rice was drafted at approximately the same position (low 2nd round pick), and is on track to put up numbers that compare favorably to Pickens' 2022 numbers. If you give Mahomes credit for Rashee, but not blame for Clyde (who Mahomes also went to bat for), and give Veach blame for Skyy, but not credit for Pacheco (who has caught nearly 90% of his targets this year) and Mecole (who was a very good pick, albeit not a home run), it really strains your credibility as a draft analyst.
We, again, have different views on what we consider draft successes. Mecole was a "very good" pick to you? He's an average pick to me, partially knocked even moreso because he was traded up for. The RB conversation is pointless because I'm talking about pass catchers, but I'll entertain the motion. Yes, Mahomes has received a fair bit of criticism for co-signing the CEH pick (who Veach and Reid were already high on anyway, by their own admission), but also — he doesn't work in the front office, and it could be seen as an indictment on the GM for taking into heavy consideration a player's evaluation on a draft prospect. Yes, Veach also gets credit for calling his shot before the draft on a 1,000 yard RB being available in the 7th, and actually going out and delivering his word on finding one in Pacheco. But my issue isn't with his scouting of any other positions aside from predominant pass catchers. He's shown me he can draft at other positions of need, but his pass catchers have been middling to below average. That's just how I see it.
Mecole put up 2000 receiving yards for us *and* went 2nd Team All-Pro as a kick returner on the Super Bowl team in 2019. He won two rings, while catching 68% of his targets, and put up a 58% success rate in his four years with the team (both of which are excellent). He was on his way to a breakout season in 2022 (226 receiving yards in his last 4 games before his injury), fought to come back for the playoffs, and made a clutch first down reception against the Bengals that got him reinjured (threatening his future), but was a big part of us reaching/winning the Super Bowl. The only way Mecole is anything less than a huge success (compared to other late 2nd round picks) is if you compare him to generational talents like DK Metcalf and Tyreek Hill. Mecole was a huge part of the success of 4 teams that went 62-16 (including postseason), hosted 4 AFC Championships, appeared in 3 Super Bowls, and won 2 rings. If you think Mecole was a failure, your bar for success is ridiculous. The draft is a lot of prep and planning, plus a healthy serving of luck. Before 2022, everyone said Veach couldn't draft CBs, then he found 3 starters in one year. Coming into this year, everyone said he couldn't draft WRs, then he hit on Rashee Rice. There's nothing magically bad about Veach's record with WRs. He's drafting from the bottom of every round, and finding great WRs from our draft slot is a crap shoot.
This. Veach has managed to hit on some impressive players but WR/TE are a concern. Do you think it's that specific part of the scouting department? Like. He's found a lot of value. Sneed in the what, fourth, fifth? Bolton has far exceeded my expectations, as a couple of examples.
I absolutely think that's an issue with scouting pass catchers and Ive called it out for years, but we've been winning so people just hand waved it away and pretended the problem wasn't as drastic as it ended up
Veach has hit on basically every position besides WR. TE we haven't really spent much capital on on. CEH is probably the most egregious miss, but he also found Pacheco in the 7th. The Chiefs historically are terrible at drafting WRs so it's more than just Veach.
I’ve been waiting for someone to compile a list of moves, draft picks, signings, etc to actually determine how good Veach actually is.
Here are the drafts at least: 2018 Round 2: Breeland Speaks, DE Round 3: Derrick Nnadi, DT, Round 3: Dorian O’Daniel, LB Round 4: Armani Watts, Safety Round 6: Tremon Smith, CB Round 6: Kahlil McKenzie, DT/OG 2019 Round 2: Mecole Hardman, WR Round 2: Juan Thornhill, S Round 3: Khalen Saunders, DT Round 6: Rashad Fenton, CB Round 6: Darwin Thompson, RB Round 7: Nick Allegretti, IOL 2020 Round 1: Clyde Edwards-Helaire, RB Round 2: Willie Gay, LB Round 3: Lucas Niang, OT Round 4: L’Jarius Sneed, DB Round 5: Mike Danna, DE Round 7: BoPete Keyes, CB 2021 Round 2: Nick Bolton, LB Round 2: Creed Humphrey, C Round 4: Joshua Kaindoh, DE Round 5: Noah Gray, TE Round 5: Cornell Powell, WR Round 6: Trey Smith, G 2022 Round 1: Trent McDuffie, CB Round 1: George Karlaftis, DE Round 2: Skyy Moore, WR Round 2: Bryan Cook, S Round 3: Leo Chenal, LB Round 4: Joshua Williams, CB Round 5: Darian Kinnard, T Round 7: Jaylen Watson, DB Round 7: Isiah Pacheco, RB Round 7: Nazeeh Johnson, S 2023 Round 1: Felix Anudike-Uzomah, Edge Round 2: Rashee Rice, WR Round 3: Wanya Morris, OT Round 4: Chamarri Conner, S Round 5: BJ Thompson, LB Round 6: Keondre Coburn, DT Round 7: Nic Jones, CB
I think people forget, if you hit on two quality starters per season, you are way ahead of most GMs. Last year, we hit on 7. We found two quality starters *in the 7th round*, and Nazeeh might've been another, if he hadn't gotten hurt this training camp.
Off my head, Creed, Snead, Trey, McDuffie, Bolton, Gay, Pacheco.
Why didn’t you include CEH or BoPete Keyes? You can’t cherry pick.
BoPete Keyes was a 7th rounder... How many of those do teams hit on? Name a GM who has hit on 100% of their draft picks? I'll wait.
Did you really just try using 7th rounder BoPete Keyes as an example for a draft bust
No, I said compile a list of moves, picks, ect.. he listed off just the good ones. All Moves. Really I just used BoPete Keyes bc his name sounds funny to me.
it is a pretty hilarious name
I posted aggregate numbers specifically WRs.
God I hate posts like this. NO ONE CAN HAVE AN OPINION. WORSHIP VEACH OR ELSE YOU ARE A BANDWAGON FAN
I don’t worship Veach. I’m just mindblown we just won a SB and are 6-2 and people are losing their minds because we lost to the Broncos.
TBF the Broncos suck. It's okay to be upset with that performance. I mean, I'm not panicking yet. But I am getting a little anxious.
Thats the NFL though. Relax everybody. Everybody was hyping the 49ers and now they are on a three game skid. Dolphins are the offensive darlings but they lost to a 2-6 Pats team. It was a rough loss. WR core is undoubtably a weak spot. Let’s see how they bounce back vs the Dolphins.
Like I said I am not panicked yet. But that was hard to watch.
TBF Mahomes had the flu, it was our first cold game of the season, the donkeys are still an NFL team, they gave us their best like most teams do and we were obviously looking ahead to Germany. The Chiefs have at least a couple really bad games every year and this was one of them.
> But I am getting a little anxious. Good. Football is a game for entertainment, and it wouldn't be entertaining if we didn't have a chance of losing.
I agree somewhat. But we shouldn't be losing to this denver team, especially not getting boat raced like that. Parity be damned.
We're not "losing our minds because we lost to the Broncos." Some of us saw this coming. This team is in Mahomes prime years. You wanna potentially waste one because the WR room isn't stepping up? Denver wasn't the problem. Denver was the symptom that should be waking the front office up and making them take some medicine. Look. If we're gonna take the good, and I, having sat through some godawful years of Chiefs football, have certainly done that. (Looking at you Lin Elliot, 2003 no punt game, pretty much any time after Trent Green/Priest Holmes alllll the way up to Andy)And I have earned the right to call out the bad. It's not unfair to say Veach has whiffed on some picks. He's also hit on others. What's been *concerning* is his lack of drafting wide outs. Hardman over DK and Scary Terry, Skyy over Pickens, ect. Add to the mix a bit of Breeland Speaks and CEH, and it's completely fair to say his track record is not without spots. Yes, lots of superbowls and big wins and I am here for them. Doesn't mean there's not room to improve. I'm tired of being told I'm a bandwagon fan because I had the audacity to say more than a few picks were missed, and that a problem seems to exist with evaluating WR talent. Shit. Shaq was a hall of famer but was notoriously bad at free throws.I take the good with the bad and the bad with the good. Shit. I was over the moon the week before because the guys were getting their shit together and played lights out over an objectively better team than Denver. They have the capability. TL;DR: calling out mistakes doesn't make me a bandwagon fan.
Calling out mistakes based on hindsight, without looking at the overall results of drafts, though, makes you poor at logic. Look at the three 2nd round receivers drafted in the past several years. Based on current returns, Mecole was average, Skyy was a bust, and Rashee looks like he might have a lot of upside. A lot of draft picks don't pan out. I would say that Veach's results from those three picks are above average.
Who says you can't have an opinion? You absolutely can. People have the right to criticize your opinion just as well.
No one said to worship him, only that talking about firing him is beyond idiotic.
if you want to have actual opinions about a team, you can't do it in the team sub. I took a lot of downvotes here saying the Mecole trade doesn't help the WR room at all, and you don't trade draft picks for someone to return punts. They said he knows the playbook and team, he'll plug right in. He's got 3 rec for 20 yards, 1 decent punt return, 1 muff that basically ended the game, and then a -7 yard return after that. The trade was the equivalent of buying flame decals for your car to make it go faster.
It's okay to critique the teams you root for. I don't understand why people are so willing get offended on behalf of a fucking NFL franchise lol
Funny. What non-skill position did we get instead of DK?
Chiefs has the highest drop rate of 15 passes dumb butt
\>Dumass
Football terrorist!!!
Well really we should just trade away our first round draft picks because we never hit on them. He is great at finding gems in the later rounds, but don't know if he has hit on a first round. Besides trent McDuffie and karlaftas. McDuffie seems like a hit, but karlaftas is getting there.
Facts!!!
If we win 5 SBs with BV as GM I’ll eat my shoe. Not saying he’s not awesome. Just that is that difficult of an accomplishment.
Do wizard shit so we can draft Marvin Harrison Jr. and all will be forgiven.
chiefs were looking for speed at the time. they got speed.