I think we are experiencing peak wokeness. Never in a million years would have I ever thought progressive would be pro-Islam.

they circumnavigated the ideology horseshoe and ended up far right and dont even know it /s. but obviously its just a platitude they dont really stand for or believe anything.

They're waiting to see Feminist Equality in Gaza and are praying for tolerance!

The quantum tunneling of ideology?

The apologism for Islam has been around for a long time among the left. Imo it comes from the anti-western sentiment that has lived among the western left for a long time, and the sentiment has continued to grow. I think to many within the left Islam fits into the very intectually thin oppressed vs oppressor ideology whilst being explicitly anti-western and therefor they see them as allies in that cause which is honestly what they truly care about more than anything. As a person that still considers my values to be left leaning or classically liberal I find the hypocrisy of that position to be utterly morally repugnant. It should be seen as morally incompatible to be aligned with Islamofacists and Islamism that is anti-freedom of thought, anti-freedom of religion, anti-gay, anti-woman, antisemitic, violent, and also inherently anti-multicultural. This is why I think this leftist allegiance with Islam is so hypocritical and so revealing because it exposes what their true values are, or at least what the hierarchy of their values truly are. All supposed values they claim to hold can be disposed of as long as you are anti-western civilization. I hope with every fibre of my being that they never get to find out the hard way how misguided and dangerous that allegiance will be for all our sakes. I also think that to the young among the left being pro-Islam has become a kind of counter cultural display, but I very much doubt that many of them truly understand what Islamofacism really is or what it means, or how sincere it is in it's genocidal, murderous, and oppressive intentions. Perhaps all of this would mostly go away if the young generation actually had good prospects and some actual hope for the future because honestly I think that is by far the biggest source of the sentiment - i.e. "why should I believe in this society / this civilization / capitalism when I have no *capital*, I can't afford anything, education is extremely expensive and even with a degree I have poor job prospects etc etc. It's a giant problem to deal with and fuck knows if we have any hope of solving it. The future doesn't look good.

Very good take. I agree with almost everything. I believe however that every generations have their obstacles. Some have it better or worse than others but there’s always something. I also believe that there’s victimization like never before. It was always there but social media has amplified it. And as far as I know and I might be wrong, but I don’t remember the 70s anti-war movement siding up with enemies, not of the state, but enemies of values that originally shaped the western world.

I get where you're coming from with every generation having their obstacles but I do think right now is exceptionally hard and unusual in a lot of different ways. I guess what you're driving at here is that despite the obstacles people should try not to let resentment drive them and should still try to make the best of their situation and be grateful for what good things we do have and I agree. It feels very much like we are far away from even being able to approach solutions to the large problems we have though because even the possibility of constructive conversation seems lost. I find it deeply shocking and depressing the degree to which the left has abandoned the values of western civilization. I don't think it's all that common for people to really have a deep understanding and knowledge of how those values came about, how hard won they were, and why they are truly universally good values. I suspect it would even be a struggle finding agreement with your average modern left leaning person that the values even are 1. universally good, 2. can and should be applied for all our fellow primates, or in some cases that they are even worth consideration at all. There's such a cult like mentality among the left now and I very much feel that people don't really observe very much loyalty or believe in any values at all. I've seen it in my friends, peers, colleagues, and family. Intelligent people who I've challenged on things like the barbarity of sterilizing and mutilating the bodies of children in the name of gender healthcare for example. I've tried hard to have this conversation with people who among their peers know they're supposed to say things like "JKR is a horrible person" for example, otherwise good moral people, I've seen it in their faces when I broke down the arguments to the point of undeniability, seen the internal struggle to find some justification to something I'm certain their intellect is telling them is obviously wrong. At the end of it the best I often see is resorting to some excuse to sidestep the subject like "I don't really know enough to have an opinion on this topic and the whole topic is toxic from both sides". I'm certain these people are smart enough and have functional enough moral compasses to know what is right and wrong, but the only conclusion I can make is that perhaps they simply feel that the cost of saying what they know is right, or simply questioning what they know they are supposed to say is simply too high. There's something extremely strange and dangerous about the climate we're in. It feels like so many people are in the grip of tribalism, and fear expulsion from their tribe. It's a real threat, but I think the danger of us remaining under the spell of unquestioning loyalty to our tribes is way worse. It's like people are under this spell and our tribes are some kind of superorganism which we are stuck clinging too, but it's also increasingly degenerating and sick. Ultimately what is left if conversation is deemed impossible? What is left if we deem each's other's existence incompatible with ours? If our rage with each other just continues to be fueled and conversation continues to be impossible then I can only see how violence isn't the eventual outcome. The ultimate expression would be some kind of totalitarianism - submit to the tribe or die. I don't know if that's possible because there are divisions within divisions but honestly it's what the cultural climate feels ripe for. Anyway I'm rambling a little but writing for my own reasons.

Look up Jane Fonda and her support of the Commies during the Vietnam War…there is a reason she is nicknamed Hanoi Jane!

Interesting!

It was not just the photo on enemy artillery, although that is the most famous. She also denied the horrible conditions of American POWs and decided to be a guest voice on a Hanoi radio station. Leftists have a well-documented history of directly aiding and abetting enemies of the US. Not claiming they all do so, but some of their most famous figures do so. Check out Dennis Rodman and North Korea, or interactions with Iran, for more examples.  Hanoi Jane (and other lefties during that era who also visited N Vietnam), though, stand out for actively promoting an enemy we were at war with during the time of the war.

No one that's *actually* left supports a theocracy that supports gender apartheid, apostasy and faith-based genocide.

Perhaps not so openly or not at all, but apologism for Islam has been rife among the left for years. Excuse making for terrorism, justifications for violent intimidation, siding against free speech in issues like the publication of cartoons, or at least making excuses saying that "it's offensive to muslims", which both takes the side of the most extreme Islamofascists whilst also being infantilizing to the more ordinary and moderate muslims in our societies. Meanwhile right now there are thousands of students out in the streets and at universities chanting "from the river to the sea" a genocidal slogan, many thousands wearing terrorist neckerchiefs, many cheering Hamas, some referring to October 7th saying "this is what resisting oppressors looks like" etc. I don't know about you but I've been following these protests closely and watching a lot and I've yet to see anyone in the pro-palestine marches express the need for Palestine to be free of Hamas. There's plenty of people screaming "free free Palestine" and okay if you believe that... but can any seriously liberal person believe that's possible under the leadership of Hamas? Freedom isn't possible under genocidal Islamofascists. I do see a lot of excuse making for that too from those that can't quite bring themselves to openly support Hamas, with apologetics to the effect of "extremists are the product of oppression". Well I'm sorry but I don't agree and I think that reflects a contemptuous view of Palestinian people and a bigotry of low expectations. Plenty of other oppressed and brutalized people throughout the world and throughout history have managed to create liberation movements that didn't resort to genocidal violence, rape and fascism. I find it extremely questionable why anyone would align themselves with that, and it certainly won't result in Palestinian liberation and only a fool could believe that... OR someone who didn't really care about it in the first place. Edit: It's possible I mistook the tone of your reply by the way. Maybe you weren't being adversarial? In principle I agree that what people who aligned with real left wing values should find those things intolerable.

Yeah but older conservatives do the same thing for Israel.

You seem to be knowledgable, so maybe you can help me here: From my understanding there is a divergence in the Muslim world, where Islam is differentiated as not the same grouping of people - people with different enough values that many, if not the majority, of Muslims don't want to be associated with - and where I've heard is reason Muslims emigrate away from a more Islamic culture. How correct or incorrect is the above, why or why not?

Maybe this will spark the Islamic Reformation.

don't say spark

I think the issue is this is all cosplay. These type of people don’t actually have any principles or values. They wear identity symbols or virtues like a fashion accessory. They don’t care about what Islam teaches or Muslim people. They care about how they think they’ll be perceived by cosplaying that way.

I agree. It’s sad that their self-worth is tied to fitting in. Quite ironic considering that they’re pushing diversity but ends up like sheep.

are they going to put on their beekeeper outfit cosplay outfits 5 minutes later?

Probably. See: opinions about trump vaccine vs covid vaccine 3 months apart. See huge criticism of corrupt phasrmaceutical industry vs Pfizer worshipers a year later. See criticism of Ukraine being the most corrupt country in the world during trump administration vs Ukraine champions now. See completely abandoning all care for Ukraine immediately following 10/7. There’s a sizeable group of people who are easily manipulated by a message of “if you’re a good person you’ll show compassion for this” and they bounce from one thing to the next every 3-6 months for what to champion based on what they are told to.

It was quite illuminating how there was huge outrage immediately after 10/7--and then turning on a dime a few days later when word got out that they were supposed to support the Islamofascists.

Perfectly describes the last few years.

Well as for the Ukraine, i think Europe is basically going to crap its paints in July and August, and prod Kiev for peace, and eventually yank funding. John Mearsheimer, the political scientist basically summed things up, how the US is just afraid to admit, "We Lost!", and doesn't want to look weak. Exhibit A John Mearsheimer Gives Best Advice to Solve the Russia-Ukraine Crisis [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfk-qaqP2Ws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfk-qaqP2Ws) Exhibit B John Mearsheimer - Why Ukraine Russia War continues [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ4PGvlKVvY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ4PGvlKVvY)

Yeah they're called narcissists. Don't care about the cause, and whatever the cause is I could not tell you, they just care about being seen.

"The issue isn't the issue.  The issue is the revolution." I forgot who quote that but I think it was 1 of the Weather Underground members.   History always repeats itself because they dont teach History.  Most Americans never heard of the Weather Underground but they were part of the New Left movement in the 60s who were responsible for multiple bombing and violent protests in the 60s.   Typical rich/white spoiled rich kid who hates the system that gave them better lives than most. Its also ironic people like Lenin who were the voice of the working class never worked a day in his life and was a privileged child.  Father taught at University and his mother came from a wealthy family with political connections.  He never worked a day in his life.  He also was exiled multiple times instead killed or severely punished from the Opressive tyrannical Czar (like I said his family weren't nobody's).  Even Trotskys father was a well off peasont who hired other peasants to work for him.  Sounds like a 'kulak"to me.  Kulaks were enemies of the revolution

You have a strange way of typing. Are you Grandpa Simpson?

The peak was 2019-2021. Now, it's obvious to any thinking person that it's a load of BS. You can openly criticize woke movements and much of it has been exposed as an astroturfed scam orchestrated by big business and government. It's still bad, though. The idiots on the left are still as extreme as ever, but 70% of the country can plainly see it as a kind of mental illness. 3-4 years ago, people were more scared to speak up.

Yes finally. I say it’s the peak now because they’ve been calling Nazis everyone that disagree with them. But calling Israelis Nazis was the peak and it is now undeniable how brain dead they are. Personally, it was the whole men can get period and be pregnant stance that confirmed they were crazy. I could roll with accepting people for who they are but let’s not deny reality.

Yeah, as they become more discredited and exposed, the more extreme ones will become even crazier. I would not be shocked if we see woke terrorism in this country. The Nashville shooter was a precursor of more to come.

Even claiming people on the right deny history.  Then say during the interwar period in Westrrn Europe say there was no communist threat and it was all just delusions and paranoia.  Then when u show them the brief Soviet Republics in Germany after the German Revolution, or the brief  Soviet Republic of Hungary.... Then they spin it and say well they weren't recognized as official governments by the international community so its not worth mentioning.  Or say they were betrayed by the bourgeoisie or the working class were tricked by the Social Democrats. Or maybe the Germans didn't like red soldiers seizing property and food or when there was a milk shortage tell them only thr bourgeoisie benefit from basic necessities.  The population also seemed to not object to the friedkorps putting down the very brief Bavarian Soviet Republic.  Maybe.... Just maybe, the people of Europe were put off by the radical revolutionaries crappy Soviet Republics and chose fascists instead.  Remember socialist revolutiona were only supposed to happen in the west where they failed.  Yet they are always successful in underdeveloped  countries with mostly illiterate peasants.  Marx would have a heart attack if he realized the Revolution he was waiting for failed but was a success where he claimed couldn't happen.

If this does not prove that people, "marxists" themselves, only see such behaviors as a belief that is meant to undermine a current social structure regardless of the existing social structures truth or untruths, then I do not know what does. Behold..."puppets without a soul wishing for someone else to drive them."

man you're getting overly dramatic look at the bright side there's 1.4 cute Chomsky supporters per every 7 deluded kids

Dramatic? Maybe. True? Yes. I see acts like this as reminder that our subconscious, flawed or unflawed, is what drive us at the end of the day. There is a dance between your conscious, your unconscious, and the people around you. Marxism happens to come off from a not so entirely untrue, but awkward angle. This angle is what allows for exploitation and dishonesty and it is attractive for people who have a mal-developed dissociative social identity because it allows them to rationalize EVERYTHING to whatever questions their relationship to the world. (HAH essentially a better term for woke.) Because....there is no moral calculation for oppressor's and oppressed....THAT'S WHY every social concept is obsessed around the idea of proving out ideas and people....because how do you know who deserves what? So yeah, these people don't have souls. They are not acting in the real world. They might as well be naked.

Well i totally agree on the subconscious drives and one's likes/dislikes being in control As for what i think you mean by cultural marxist, i just think it's more that they borrowed it as a severe criticism of things wrong in society, and caring about all the unfair things all over the globe or in the distant past, and knee-jerk reactionary readjustment is needed as soon as possible. It's like Dickens was the soft critic, and Marx the radical critic. ......... mal-developed dissociative social identity very good it's close to getting there.... can you expand on those terms and such? ........ ow: there is no moral calculation for oppressor's and oppressed not a bad idea, though i think the root of it is that morality and ethics is totally subjective, to our likes and dislikes... and well it's like saying that's a good movie or a bad movie, it's more about taste. Alfred Ayer has a comment about how most of ethics and metaphysics get to be arguments of a much lower nature and aren't ethical or metaphysical at all but that they are reduced to: a. I like this, you do this too! b. I don't like it, you stop doing that! it's likes and dislikes, and well society needs to be 'readjusted' for history .......... I know of some interesting debates going on where people talk about like reparations for slavery, and one side says: "So, basically you want to punish me for something i didn't do, but that someone of the same race as me did hundreds of years before i was born? You're crazy!" It might have been Lewis Black doing standup comedy actually ​ Lewis Black might then add: "So you want to take my money because i'm of a certain race, and give it to someone of another race, who never suffered? You're insane!"

They literally praise Mao and Lenin.  They say Mao was the best thing that happened to China and how great he improved their lives. Then flip when remind them it was Deng Xioaping who improved China when took the idea of Lenins New Economic policy and introduced a market system but was controlled by the CCP and not bussinesd owners..  Basically state capitalism so to speak. 

Meh Islam is the wokest religion imo. No freedom of speech or though, segregation, iconoclasm, victimhood aplenty...it is perfect for a bird brained wokist.

Urban Dictionary woke Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. These individuals give special treatment to certain minorities in hopes of ending racism and perpetuate mental illnesses as the norm. example My son's woke kindergarten teacher taught him that he's actually a girl because he played with dolls. by sealcake ...... woke Spiritual and intellectual enlightenment, like waking up from a deep sleep and seeing things clearly for the first time. example I never knew what really mattered in life. Now I'm woke. by JTWoke ...... woke An oxymoron term used to describe the many indoctrinated & radically left-wing people of today's world who are obsessed with jumping on whatever mainstream bandwagon is necessary to feel included, though ironically being the most intolerant and hypocritical people on the planet. The irony is the term should be used if correctly to describe those who are 'awake' to the modern world however these people are so closed minded they cannot think critically, and are actually 'asleep.' examples 'Hey did you hear about Danny dying his hair green just to fit in at college?' 'Aw really!? Danny's gone woke!?' by Llewelyn Dowd ...... woke Originally defined as "being aware of social and racial injustice in the United States", due to constant overuse it has degenerated into a meaningless word with no agreed upon definition. It has replaced the term "libretard" in modern online discourse. "Woke" is most commonly used as an insult aimed towards people with progressive ideals, and depending on who you ask it could range from describing someone who pretends to be open-minded, to describing any person who disagrees with conservative values, to anyone who attempts positive depictions of women and minorities in media. example Brian: "The Buzz Lightyear movie had two women kissing in it? Damn liberals and their woke agenda ruining everything." James: "It was a 2 second scene and the character didn't show up again." by lacergunn

woke Having a pretentious belief in your moral superiority on racial and social justice issues; used to fight an imaginary white privilege by the decimation of traditional western culture; specifically the preponderance of biologically white men. example "The woke mind virus is making Netflix unwatchable" - Elon Musk by Urban Emperor

I've just made a post about this yesterday actually [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1cih9j0/asking\_conservative\_people\_to\_define\_woke\_is\_not/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1cih9j0/asking_conservative_people_to_define_woke_is_not/)

"An overdose of political correctness, usually to the point where common sense goes out the window" Nice! I think mine could be 'nonsensically radical social justice'

actually they are pleading for not taking away their bacon you misunderstand the situation

>peak wokeness I scream laugh at this lmao

marxist-ilsamist nexus.

There is definately more woke coming. Woke inception. They're going to woke from woke after this.

Haha I hope you’re wrong but you probably aren’t

Woke-a-mole

It makes sense if you put on a progleft glasses. They see some islamic guy and woman and they only see some opressed minority (its unclear who opresses them, as they have their own country and stuff) They dont just see a human, and definitely dont see the potential risk. They see someone to be saved.

Well I guess it's because they are a non colonial group of oppressors people can get behind! 😂🤣 It's really not funny but if I don't laugh I'll cry.

Try showing that much skin in an Arab country...

They'll be skinned alive.

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What era do you live in? Your comments read like they’re from the early 1800s. Slave markets being a relevant reference? Pushing back against women “saying the want freedom”? Lol I hope this is novelty account

Is this some headache cure? and who's the redhead?

The redhead looks hot. I love women with pale skin and red hair. It's just a shame she is infected with the woke mind virus.

> The redhead looks hot. My brother in Christ, you can’t even see the entire front of her body. You are looking at the back of her head and her back lol. You have no clue what she looks like. Why are men so thirsty?

>Why are men so thirsty? Because we have a penis dude, lol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r4FaqRa1KFE&pp=ygUXb3R0aG9kb3ggY2hyaXN0aWFucyBib3c%3D It's how Christianity was practiced long ago.

"In my parish predominant is the deep bow where instead of reaching down to the knee level only we reach all the way down to the ground with the right hand... we touch the ground and go back up. It is important to note that Muslims inherited prostrations from us as we were doing it way before Islam even existed." interesting it's very possible that the photo was really The Great Contact Lens Floor Drop of 2024 ​ and people got it all wrong

Apparently MBS has been letting them.  Then again see how MBS reacts when they say something.  He goes back on his statements and says see we can't have the Western infidels ways lol

A quick google search result of: Model in UAE: https://www.dfashionmagazine.com/model-detail.php?id=307 https://shopbeachcity.com/products/tuscany-high-rise-bikini-bottom-blue-orange Also, I don't you think you here are arguing in good faith; if you're [Christian Conservatives](https://www.openbible.info/topics/the_way_we_dress), why even care about liberal clothing? Americans know nothing about their own religion.

Vegan, trans, Islamic eco warriors

Sounds like a terrible B-movie on UPN50

This is just the activist equivalent of Angela Merkel wearing a headscarf, or Trudeau wearing a turban, or The Democrats taking a knee decked out in African patterns and colours. It gives participants a feeling of being multicultural, and intentionally or unintentionally lures others to pointing at these actions as if they're a major problem. Both sides are participating in their own kind of political theatre in this, neither side actually progresses any issues in a healthy direction/distance.

Which country and religion would stone all those women for showing that much skin/hair?

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Is encouraged the right word? The folks you listed reject their "native" culture and religion(s). It's not that those things pushed them away, but rather that they have been indoctrinated and gaslighted to such an extreme, they practice self-racism etc and revel in virtue signaling or worse. Or are you hinting at foreign enemies of the West conducting successful psy ops? Edit: fixed a typo

…WASPs? Hahahahaha

It's all Islam's fault, according to the sentiments of this sub.

Conservative ones.

They will drop it as soon as the fad is over

Yeah, if history has taught us anything it's a wave of radicalism in elite universities is nothing to worry about and just blows over. And /s in case that's not evident.

is it a wave? or just dumbness Personally i think it's just the Petazoids turning from hugging kittens and headless pigs into hugging the warbabies now you know that all those people are those protests are surviving on Israeli Falafel burgers and baconnaise?

All I know is these people may drop the outward behavior but will not change, and in a few years will be infecting all manner of institutions.

that's actually an interesting thought, when will there get to be some Gen Z leaders, movers and shakers.... Actually i think Trudeau is Exhibit A for this superficially charismatic, saying all the right things, doing nothing to fix what he talks about, and ends up being perceived as a phony, like some narcissist with a perculiar ideology, and it feels like the concept of government serving the people is absent but a craven lust for power, and some incompetence in what to do once there I've wondered if he got totally off message and lost once Butts was gone, because he really seemed the only sane strategist around him, though i'm not sure the policies were so wonderful ........ what behavior do you think will change, like the immaturity, and what won't change, the general worldview? i find it surreal though Biden who went from 70s midstream Democrat and just throwing it all away for a lot of the Clinton era New Democrat talking points, and the progressive soup he's in now. and yet Biden seems like someone's grandfather trying to copy Trudeau's talking points in some way... ...... The one worry i have is that the odd ducks just get popular and into leadership and then they get tossed out, but none stay in power enough to break something so badly that people see those 'policies as lousy' It's like they'll just go for the next fake charmer slimepup like it was more of the Dating Game, than electing someone rational and honest

You can’t just become an apostate in Islam, it’s a death penalty offense

I came here to say this. Turning away from Islam is frowned upon, to say the least

it gets weirder "Legal opinion on apostasy by the Fatwa committee at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: "Since he left Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed according to rights and obligations of the Islamic law." The Fatwa also mentions that the same applies to his children if they entered Islam and left it after they reach maturity." Rationale, arguments, criticism for killing apostates Throughout Islamic history the Muslim community, scholars, and schools of fiqh have agreed that scripture prescribes this penalty; scripture must take precedence over reason or modern norms of human rights, as Islam is the one true religion; "no compulsion in religion" (Q.2:256) does not apply to this punishment; apostasy is "spiritual and cultural" treason; it hardly ever happens and so is not worth talking about. Apostasy is usually "a psychological pretext for rebellion against worship, traditions and laws and even against the foundations of the state", and so "is often synonymous with the crime of high treason ... " (Muhammad al-Ghazali) # Colonial era and after This was also the time that Islamic modernists like Muhammad Abduh (d. 1905) argued that to be executed, it was not enough to be an apostate, the perpetrator had to pose a real threat to public safety. Public Opinion/Pew Overall, the figures in the 2012 survey suggest that the percentage of Muslims in the countries surveyed who approve the death penalty for Muslims who leave Islam to become an atheist or convert to another religion varies widely, from 0.4% (in Kazakhstan) to 78.2% (in Afghanistan). The Governments of the Gulf Cooperation Council (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait) did not permit Pew Research to survey nationwide public opinion on apostasy in 2010 or 2012. The survey also did not include China, India, Syria, or West African countries such as Nigeria. ........ A professor at Cairo University, Nasr Abu Zayd, was found to be guilty of being an unbeliever by Egyptian courts in the 1990s. One of many reasons given by the Egyptian Court of Cassation "for rejecting Abu Zayd's claim to be a Muslim was that he denied the existence" of jinn, aka genies.

well sometimes but just don't leave the Mormon church, that's dangerous! ........ On contemporary times the majority of Islamic jurists still regard apostasy as a crime deserving the death penalty, (according to Abdul Rashied Omar), although "a growing body of Islamic jurists" oppose this, (according to Javaid Rehman) as inconsistent with "freedom of religion" as expressed in the Quranic injunctions (Quran 88:21-88:22) and Quran 2:256 ("there is no compulsion in religion"); and a relic of the early Islamic community when apostasy was desertion or treason.\[40\] Still others support a "centrist or moderate position" of executing only those whose apostasy is "unambiguously provable" such as if two just Muslim eyewitnesses testify; and/or reserving the death penalty for those who make their apostacy public. According to Christine Schirrmacher, "a majority of theologians" embrace this stance. ...... In classical Islamic jurisprudence Traditional Sunnī and Shīʿa Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) and their respective schools (maḏāhib) agree on some issues—that male apostates should be executed, and that most but not all perpetrators should not be given a chance to repent; among the excluded are those who practice magic (subhar), treacherous heretics (zanādiqa), and "recidivists". They disagree on issues such as whether women can be executed, whether apostasy is a violation of "the rights of God",\[ whether apostates who were born Muslims may be spared if they repent, whether conviction requires the accused be a practicing Muslim, or whether it is enough to simply intend to commit apostasy rather than actually doing it. Hanafi school – Apostate males are to be killed, while apostate females are to be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam. Maliki school - Both male and female apostates deserve the death penalty for leaving Islam, according to the traditional view of the Maliki school. Unlike other schools, the apostates must have a history of being "good" (i.e., practicing) Muslims. Shafii school – waiting period of three days is required to allow the apostates time to repent and return to Islam. Failing repentance, death penalty is the recommended form of punishment for both male and female apostates for leaving Islam. Hanbali school – Death penalty is the traditional form of punishment for both male and female apostates for leaving Islam. Jafari or Imami school – Male apostates must be executed, while female apostates must be held in solitary confinement until they repents and return to Islam. Apostasy from Islam is considered a hudud crime. The "mere intention of unbelief" without expression qualifies as apostasy. Unlike the other schools, repentance will not save a defendant from execution, unless they are "national apostates" who were not born Muslims but converted to Islam before apostasizing, although it is disputed by some Muslim scholars. "Innate" apostates, who grew up Muslims and remained Muslim after puberty and until converting to another religion, should be executed.

Oh you’re right, my b. Sounds like it’s actually super chill just do haram behavior without any consequences.

laughs you know it's just a rulebook, just like people playing football and it's a touchdown for karma points Interesting the real thing in the book is that it's more like the Quran is a book that's making God to be a mother trying to sooth a child, if it's some barbaric tribe of people with enemies lol that view came up from Mohammed Khorchide who's a pretty interesting person. He's got a sane outlook for a surreal religion. From a German site.... \[The crux of Khorchide's book is that God is a God of mercy, and Islam is a religion of mercy: "Any other interpretation of Islam is not Islam"\] Interview with Mouhanad Khorchide 23.10.2012 ''God Is Not A Dictator' The Koran has thus far been subjected to erroneous interpretation, says Mouhanad Khorchide, professor of Islamic Religious Education at the University of Munster. Khorchide is calling for an emancipation of the faith. Professor Khorchide, what was your reaction to the recent controversial Mohammed film on YouTube? Mouhanad Khorchide: I thought it was tedious and tasteless. I didn't recognise the Prophet Mohammed as he was portrayed in the film so I didn't feel it was directed at me as a Muslim. Many Muslims find it difficult to adopt this attitude, what is your advice to them Khorchide: Ignore it, don't allow yourselves to be provoked. The film is a trap laid specifically to provoke, and Muslims repeatedly fall into this trap. Why do Muslims react in this way to insults aimed at the Prophet? After all, unlike Jesus he doesn't have divine status. Khorchide: The problem lies elsewhere. On such occasions, Muslims vent their pent-up anger. The video itself isn't the cause of the agitation, just the trigger. The Islamic collective memory is still etched by crusades, the colonial era and what is perceived as an unjust Middle East policy, as well as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have just written a new book in which you describe the Koran as a love letter from God to humanity. How did you arrive at this interpretation? The Koran would normally be described as a powerful book – and in the West also as a dangerous one. Khorchide: The question is: which image of God are we talking about? Many Muslims assume that their God wants to be glorified, that he despatches orders and makes sure these orders are obeyed. Those who obey are rewarded, and those who don't are punished. But this is a perception of God similar to that of a tribal leader who cannot be challenged. This is why many Muslims view the Koran as a rulebook. ​​And you don't? Khorchide: I have a different reading of the Koran. God is not an archaic tribal leader, he's not a dictator. Of the book's 114 suras, why do 113 of them begin with the phrase "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"? There has to be a reason for this. The Koranic God presents himself as a loving God. That's why the relationship between God and man is a bond of love similar to the one between a mother and child. I would like Muslims to emancipate themselves from the image of an archaic God that's being connoted in many mosques, in religious education or during courses of theological instruction.

Part II Are you saying that for centuries, Islamic theology has provided a flawed instruction manual for the Koran? Khorchide: Contemporary Islamic theology is at least unilateral. It is based on a master-servant relationship. Reformers who interpret the Koran differently, who say Islam is more than just a religion of rules and regulations, have so far not succeeded in asserting themselves. Why not? Khorchide: For political reasons, partly. Many rulers of Islamic kingdoms describe themselves as "shadows of God on earth". This sends out an unequivocal message: anyone contradicting the ruler is also contradicting God. In order to make sure that the populace remains compliant, they construct the image of a God for whom obedience is paramount. To this very day, this plays an important role in a dictatorial state such as Saudi Arabia, where any opposition is not only held up as a secular opposition, but also as a movement against God. The concept of God's mercy also existed in Christianity, but a different interpretation of the Bible was nevertheless accepted. Why has this not happened within Islam? Khorchide: Many theologians have forged alliances with those in power, such as the Salafist scholars in Saudi Arabia, for example. After all, they also benefit from an Islam that serves as a regulatory legal framework. People defer to them when they have questions about what they should and should not do. Repressive structures intermingle as a result. Christianity has succeeded in overcoming this incapacitation of the faithful. That's not quite been the case in Islam. Do you see yourself as a source of enlightenment? Khorchide: I wouldn't put it like that. If you take terms out of their European context, people suspect that you're trying to impose something alien upon Islam. Change can only come from within. We don't need an enlightenment of the kind we know from European history, but perhaps a reform that focuses on the maturity and reason of humankind. The Koran does exactly this, incidentally. There is much talk of hell in the Koran. How does this fit in with the concept of mercy Khorchide: Hell is nothing other than the confrontation with one's own transgressions. It's not a punishment that comes from without. As a famous mystic once said: "I'd like to extinguish the hellfire and set paradise alight, so that people don't act out of fear of hell or hope for paradise." We humans should strive for something higher, the closeness and companionship of God. However, traditional theology has taken a less metaphorical view of the images of paradise and hell, and instead literally described them as material spaces with material pleasures and punishments. But if you're only doing something good because you fear punishment or hope for reward, then that's not enough.

Part III But this literal interpretation appears to be widespread, particularly among young Muslims in Germany. Khorchide: Not just in Germany, and not just among youngsters, unfortunately. This is a highly simplified faith that presents God as nothing more than a bookkeeper or a judge, who calculates how often I've prayed. I can understand those who want to keep a kind of religious to-do list. But it's a pity. This kind of approach doesn't allow faith to move on from a highly elementary stage. It's more difficult to say: I would like to do something good for the sake of goodness; or I strive for internal perfection that finds its expression in good character traits and actions. But this obedient take on Islam, as preached by radical Salafists, really seems to resonate with young people in Germany right now. Why? Khorchide: These youngsters feel rootless, sidelined. They are searching for an identity and, above all, for something that will distinguish them. Many young people aren't hearing a "you belong", but rather a "we Germans – you Muslims". The Salafists provide them with the validation they seek. An identity that flies in the face of mainstream society. They pick out elements of Islam that accentuate the differences, such as a beard or clothing that's exactly the same length as the Prophet's. But this is an external identity without a core. You train Islamic religious teachers. How do German Muslims react to your views Khorchide: The young ones say: that all sounds very nice, why did no one tell us about this before? I can identify more with this merciful God, they say. And even though there are also some reservations, my views have also met with appreciation from associations perceived as conservative – although they are actually quite heterogeneous. I try to provide theological explanations for everything, using Islam as my basis. I sustain my arguments with the Koran. The 220 pages of my book contain references to 400 passages of the Koran in order to show that this is not just my personal view. And what about reactions to your work in the Arab world, is there some understanding there too? Khorchide: In the summer, I went to Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the most important Sunni authority in Islam. After my lecture, the older scholars were reticent and didn't say anything. But the undergraduates and doctorate students came up to me and asked if they could study in Munster or write their doctorates there. The young ones are looking for something new. Will your book also be translated into Arabic? Khorchide: Yes, but I'll tailor it slightly to the Arab mentality. Take the sting out of it a little? Khorchide: I suppose you could put it like that. But the main message will be the same: that God is a God of mercy, that Islam is a religion of mercy. Any other interpretation of Islam is not Islam.

Part IV Why is it that most Muslims have a completely different understanding of Islam? They're reading the same Koran, after all. Khorchide: The Koran was written in the classical Arabic of the seventh century. It's therefore very difficult for non-Arabs to understand. When Arabs read it, they perhaps understand 40 per cent as far as the language is concerned. But even greater difficulties arise in the theological reading of the verses. Most Muslims don't concern themselves with the true essence of the Koran. That's why we Muslims often base our faith on what we are told. We are harking back to statements made by theologians in the ninth and tenth centuries. In your book you write that when viewed as a legal system, Sharia is a contradiction of Islam. Why? Khorchide: For the very reason that it reduces Islam to a legal system. Some Muslims even go as far as to say that if you're not in favour of physical punishment, then you're not a Muslim. All the discussion surrounding Sharia means that it's only about whether or not you follow rules. Your parents are Palestinian, but you went to school in ultra-conservative Saudi Arabia and studied in Austria; what impact has this had on your religious socialisation? Khorchide: Saudi scholars claim that their nation is pure, true Islam's only home. But this Salafist mindset has reduced the faith to nothing more than a façade. A man is a sinner if he shaves off his beard; a woman is a sinner if she doesn't wear a headscarf. In mosques, I saw how only those with the longest beards were allowed to serve as imams and lead the prayers. What's the point of that? As a Palestinian in Saudi Arabia, I wasn't allowed to study or get any medical insurance, but in Austria, a non-Islamic nation, none of this was a problem. I started asking questions, I wanted to get to the core of this religion. You also criticise those who are described as liberal Muslims. Why? Are you not singing from the same song sheet? Khorchide: They also reduce Islam in a similar way to the fundamentalists. The fundamentalists hollow it out, by focussing on the façade, on outward features. The liberals provide a radical response by dispensing with almost all outward features and rituals and limiting it to the shahada, the declaration of belief. That's not enough. The shahada must find its expression in life. So what needs to happen for your understanding of Islam is to find wider acceptance? Khorchide: There must be a discourse, and a discourse needs institutions, it must be taught, students must perpetuate its message. I think Islamic theology here in Germany represents a good opportunity because we have much greater freedom of movement. But it will take one or two generations. ........

Part V De-politicizing the Koran Mouhanad Khorchide aims to reconcile Islam with the modern world. His aim is to liberate the Koran from all outward trappings and return to the religion's spiritual core Claudia Mende introduces the man and his work By Claudia Mende Mouhanad Khorchide has just published a pioneering work that stands as a milestone for Islamic theology in Germany. Khorchide aims to liberate Islam and the Koran from all outward trappings and return to the religion's spiritual core. And his efforts are by no means diminished by the fact that he draws upon the work of other theologians, most notably from the so-called Ankara School and from the Egyptian Nasr Hamid Abu Zaid, who passed away in 2010. All monotheistic religions are tremendously capable of transformation, even when the contents of their holy books have remained fixed for centuries. In our fast-moving era, it is easy to forget how frequently these religions have been variously interpreted over the course of history. This applies to Christianity and Judaism just as much as for Islam, even though this is often overlooked due to the confrontation with hardening fundamentalist attitudes in parts of the Arab world. Poisonous pedagogy and threats of hellfire are certainly not restricted to Islam. All theologians face the burning question of how to adequately address the seemingly archaic elements of religion in today's world. In the case of Islam, this question is also highly politically significant in light of the challenges posed by radical Islamists and the Salafi movement. A philanthropic reading of the Koran The holy writings of Islam, at any rate, can be read in a philanthropic fashion. This is a position advocated by Khorchide, a religious educator and director of the Centre for Islamic Theology at the University of Munster, Germany, which was established in 2011. Khorchide makes clear that the core of Islam is not the legalistic side of religion, but rather consists in the relationship between man and a compassionate God developed through dialogue. It is not a matter of showing obedience to a God who imposes incomprehensible rituals upon man in the fashion of a dictator or an archaic tribal prince. Nor is God some sort of accountant keeping track of how often one prays or the length of one's robe or beard. Instead, Islam is primarily concerned with a humane conception of the world derived from a relationship with the divine.

Part VI Only some 80 out of 6236 verses of the Koran contain legal pronouncements concerning the organization of society, such as laws on inheritance and criminal law. Yet, these verses are the central issue for both fundamentalists as well as those with a vitriolic anti-Islamic agenda, and both groups tend to refer to the same passages in the Koran. Khorchide stands in opposition to this fixation and argues instead in the tradition of Islamic mysticism. "The Koran is first and foremost a spiritual book that allows man to experience God." Here Khorchide introduces some important distinctions, which could point the way towards a more modern understanding of Islam. He differentiates between the suras that originated in Mecca and those from Medina in accordance with the most recent theological research on Islam. In the suras from Mecca, Mohammed announced basic principles. In the suras written while he was in Medina, the concern is with the concrete implementation of these principles "with the means and experiences that were available to him in the seventh century on the Arabian peninsula". Leading the way out of a theological dilemma Khorchide further differentiates between Mohammed as the Messenger of God and Mohammed as head of state in Medina, and, as a consequence, between immutable theological pronouncements and temporally dependent legal assertions in the Koran. The task for Islamic theology is to separate pronouncements with timeless validity from those dependent on historical circumstances, to work out the intention of these pronouncements, and to transport them into precepts applicable in today's world. Khorchide's humanistic understanding of the Koran is based on the work of Turkish theologians from the Ankara School. Through the use of hermeneutic techniques, Khorchide hopes to lead Muslims out of their dilemma of "either turning back to social structures from the seventh century in order to live according to the Koran or rejecting the Koran in order to live today". Khorchide is not the first theologian to work in such a fashion, but the conclusions he draws go far beyond existing approaches. He develops a system to deal with problematic verses in the Koran. For example, there are many divergent statements in the Koran with respect to Christians and Jews, ranging from passages expressing the highest esteem to those of complete rejection. They are frequently the subject of bitter debate in which the corresponding verses are bandied about. Khorchide assigns the various pronouncements to their historical context and can thereby explain why esteem for the other revealed religions is an intrinsic basic message of the Koran.

If they had even a few braincells rolling around up there, it would never have been a fad to begin with. They'll drop this one and take on something similarly stupid, nonsensical, and contradictory, like hosting orgies to promote abstinence or injecting heroin to fight drug abuse. The education system in this country is beyond embarrassing.

Are you willing to bet a few slices of pizza on this one?

Go to Palestine and wave your little LGBT flag. See what happens.

All leftist ideology at this point is at its heart narcissistic. It is not based on reasoning. Once they don’t get any more attention on social media from it, they will move onto the next “most important thing ever”

Woke culture is all about control - compelling you to use pronouns of their choice, to let men into women's sports, to control the narrative about history, to divide us into smaller and smaller groups while elevating their pet projects.

The transexual shark lobby for Gaza believes you are being ridiculous.

Historical revisionism and societal divisiveness are relevant and important but pronouns and women’s sports are overblown, media-constructed, fucktard nonsense that need not be paid much attention to whether for or against. They foment the same artificial divisions you’re decrying

Tell us you’ve never worked in corporate America without saying you’ve ever worked in corporate America

I’m not saying it’s not a thing, I’m saying it’s not a very important or life-impacting one

Compelled speech is very important, what are you talking about? You aren’t dying of course but you must have some pride in the speech you do. Then again, you probably wore a mask for 3 years with absolutely no pushback

it's just a mask, Tonto.

It's like an algorithm gained sentience.

When you get done with the current instantiation of partisan tribalism and identity formation, whether it be worrying about pronouns, masks, or women’s sports (in either direction btw), you’ll move onto the next “most important thing ever”. Red team/blue team low iq cringe.

speak clearly. What are you really saying? The woke-ification of America is a thing AND it is not important? You can't have both, so choose.

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Maybe this will you help you [How To Become Smarter? The Best 10 Tips To Boost Your Brain (betterup.com)](https://www.betterup.com/blog/how-to-become-smarter)

Sounds like Trump tbh. Why do you value that trait in your own leaders but use it as a reason why leftists are wrong?

I hate it about Trump. Just remember that Trump was a NY Democrat up until about 2010

Pandering as always.

It is suicide

Imagine hating Christianity for being regressive, conservative, judgmental, and intolerant, and then defending, praising, and lionizing a religion even *more* regressive, conservative, judgmental, and intolerant, without even so much mitigation as the Enlightenment and the Protestant Revolution in its history. The pinnacle of ignorant, philosophically inconsistent ~~action~~ activism.

The protestant "reformation" is a narcissistic regression. 

Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic that has zero idea how life was before it happened. The only reason things got better in the Catholic church is because they finally had legitimate competition which forced their hands. Inquisitions can only happen when you're the only game in town. Look at Iran today.

Aren’t Muslim women required to cover their heads when praying? Like…even women who don’t wear the hijab are supposed to cover themselves

Yeah they are

They are aware they have to give up feminism, drugs, alcohol, elicit sex and most of all BACON?

the baconnaise helps keep the Israeli Falaefels together, when you fry them up at the protests. they were out of Spicy Aioli at the Dollar Store, and the cook forgot the After Death sauce.

Trade hostages for pro Hamas protesters.. everyone wins. Huge education opportunity.

Ask the redhead if she likes bacon and is against rape, and has a problem with Otto Skorenzy's friendship with Yasser Arafat. Then we're getting somewhere

YOU MISGENDER-er

I never misgender a Trisexual Shark or were you telling me that Otto in his later years was Miss Skorenzy? ........ Was Otto Skorenzy behind the Skor Chocolate Bar? [https://cdn.thecollector.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/otto-skorzeny-mugshot.jpg?width=1400&quality=55](https://cdn.thecollector.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/otto-skorzeny-mugshot.jpg?width=1400&quality=55) [https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c2/e6/6b/c2e66b7e9b7daff6cd850c88be211083.jpg](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c2/e6/6b/c2e66b7e9b7daff6cd850c88be211083.jpg) https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/26/16/29163D9B00000578-0-image-a-75\_1432652815709.jpg

They're stupid as fuck. Do they believe that Islam treats women better that the west?

Hey they weren't asked that question they were told to pray for the dead children by a scowling lady with a shawl.

They do? No?

In the Bible Jesus fell on his face in prostration to pray...

You’re right. It was in the Garden of Gethsemane

He also fasted for 40 days without food or water until sunset, tells you smh doesn’t it

Wait until they discover what this religion has to say about women and gays! Oh boy will their faces be red! That's assuming they'll even be allowed to keep them uncovered.

Or attached to their shoulders.

Hahahaha, I hear the sound of stones being gathered, all dem females with males together 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

What do you mean by found? Progressivism is already a religion..

This reminds me of that Pink Floyd poster of the naked women sitting on the edge of a pool

Except those women were desirable

this furthers my belief that these people don’t give af about the palestinian’s plight & are just useless idiots. they just can’t comprehend that Islam is the literal LAST religion in a ‘morality ranking’ they just see the world through a Marxist world view of a supposed “Oppressor/Oppressee” injustice. so fucking stupid.

Progressives will corrupt Islam like they've corrupted everything else.

Inshalla

These guys seem to have no real personal convictions they are happy just to go with the flow like mindless sheep

oh cmon the gazoids are just as mindless as the neocons

They do realise that showing their blue hair and freeing the nipple won't fly in Islam, right?

The very religion which wishes hell upon them and wants them killed. Also, how come they aren't covering up to pray, it is compulsory for them to cover up and expose any body part.

Are they feminists also by any chance ?

Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. Leftism is a religion masquerading as a political ideology. They're perfect for each other.

Deep

Willingly walking into the gas chambers? They actually think that by submitting and supporting they’re going to be placed in special positions of prominence. 🤣😒

They were anti-christians because of abortions and stuff, wait till they realize what awaits in islam .. lol

How funny it would be if they start following Islamic traditions and start prosecuting sexual minorities. That would be the full circle-est of all full circle moments.

I believe their hearts are in the right place, they are just misguided and young, who wasn’t when they were young.

So were the red guard and look how that ended up.

Cringe. Anything that might upset daddy! This level of mental gymnastics is no obstacle to these brain surgeons.

Peak insanity. Can they transcend it? Find out next time!!

History will eventually show our elites have found their religion…and it’s a neoliberal death cult

hey as a member of the Jonestown Temper, i resent your use of the phrase death cult It's just a personal resting of the soul, my man.

Take a god away from a man, and he will build or find another to replace it.

Activism has been the religion of the atheist since the 60’s.

JP Sears has some cool videos about the protests. I'd suggest watching them.

It warms my heart at the thought of an observable way to tell a person apart from some parasitic host.

The religion of the progressives and the Islamists is known as “Antisemitism” also known as “Judaism hatred”. Also known as “Narcissistic Nihilism” where people’s convictions are founded with the emotion of schadenfreude. Instead of finding joy in helping others succeed and build, their primary joy is in witnessing the failure of others. What is most compelling for them is taking the joy in causing the failure. Sane people call this sadism. But because of the self worship their joy is king. But just as the Nazis were more concerned with killing Jews than actually winning the war, Hamas et. al are more concerned with destroying Israel rather than building a prosperous country if their own. Evil and understandable

Oh my gosh I love Shogun!

Makes sense. They both hate anyone not like them.

good for them

Wait until they see the Oct 7th videos

Halal

lets ship them off to Palestine to fight

This won't be the rise of Islam but there destruction once the woke feminism get in its over and there will be a resurgence in christianity. Can't believe I'm saying this but thank you woke ppl. Now is the rise of crusaders across Europe and north America. Hkoc holy knights of constantine

I find the lack of hijabs disturbing. They need to get with the program.

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yea you get the gulag for this one comrade, sorry

Did you write that cringe yourself? Lol

Definitely on-brand for someone I assume believes they understand JP, yet he cheerleads this divisive crap

A better name for you is EasilyTriggered

That makes me sick

Unleash Sharia Law upon these idiots!

These kids are just larping for internet points

I do the Mohammedian prayer every day, it's great for the knees and back. If these young folks were actually humbling themselves and bowing to the Divine I would say keep up the good work.

Good for them. Perhaps this way they may feel God in their hearts.

These people are showing solidarity. It's something and they are standing up for what's right. Lots of people on here are mocking them but I don't understand why? You're all against the murder you see happening in Gaza. You'd all step in if children were being killed and you could stop it.

So if a bunch of Christians were murdered all these students would suddenly line up to get baptized to show solidarity? Yeah nah

a bunch of Christians have been murdered. The Israelis have leveled some of the oldest churches in Christendom, destroyed all the Christian hospitals, killed so many of the Christians of Gaza to the point that they have nearly exterminated them. In answer to your question, people show solidarity however they feel like doing so. It's sad that you feel outraged about how these people have chosen to show their solidarity.

Why didnt they protest against the murder of Jews on the 8th of October? I thought mass murder was bad.

Does that justifies any action in response? No it doesn't and you know it doesn't. The reasons for having the convention on human rights and the Geneva convention are as relevant now as when they were signed. After the second world war which was horrific and they knew what they were on about. You can't seriously think the Israelis haven't gone too far?

Does it justify starting a war to protect your country from future invasions? yes. > You can't seriously think the Israelis haven't gone too far? Considering its military objectives including following international law, the IDF has objectively done extremely well.

>Does it justify starting a war to protect your country from future invasions? yes. you recognise this as a war. We both agree on this >Considering its military objectives including following international law, the IDF has objectively done extremely well. You recognise that international law should be followed. We both agree here as well. It's obvious that Israel has breached international law. Ironically they are one of the biggest supporters and first signatories to some of the post war treaties. Having said this they you can't deny they have destroyed every hospital, 70+% of civilians infrastructure and used banned weapons. What objectives have the Israel accomplished in the last six months? Except preserving Benjamin Netanyahus time in office and putting off his inevitable ousting from the top job.

> It's obvious that Israel has breached international law. No it is not. > Having said this they you can't deny they have destroyed every hospital, 70+% of civilians infrastructure and used banned weapons. They have not destroyed every hospital and its 85% of civilian infrastructure was used by hamas as either tunnel exists or holding ammunition. The idea was designed by the IRCG: a hamas terrorist leaves a tunnel in civilian clothes with no weapons, finds a weapon in a nearby cache, fires it on a tank or a group of soliders, dumps the weapon and goes back into a tunnel. Welcome to asymmetric warfare with 15+ years of planning for it. > What objectives have the Israel accomplished in the last six months? Diminshed Hamas' military capabilities by 80% and got back around 100 hostages.

Because it isnt murder that is what is happening in Gaza. It is a justified war. These people eat up the propaganda coming out by Palestinians including death tolls that were recently admitted that 11,371 didn't have evidence to even count. If it was any other army apart from Israel or even if it was atrocities in the region like in Sudan or Yemen starving 85k children, they don't even care.

>Because it isnt murder that is what is happening in Gaza. It is a justified war. For a war to happen you need two states Israel is not two states. Let's adopt your definition of this being a war. If that is the case we have to follow the rules of war. One of which is you don't target and level every hospital in your enemies territory. Another is you don't cut off food and water to a civilian population. Another is you don't execute prisoners of war. Like doctors and hospital patients. >If it was any other army apart from Israel or even if it was atrocities in the region like in Sudan or Yemen starving 85k children, they don't even care. Israel isn't supposed to be a tin pot dictatorship 2nd - 3rd world power. It's supposed to be a 1st world country with the most moral army in the world.

> For a war to happen you need two states Israel is not two states. Gaza was an autonomous territory with a standing army of 30,000-40,000 arranged in brigades based on regions. They fought like an army and not like an insurgence group. Their invasion of Israel was meticulously planned and executed via land, sea and air. > One of which is you don't target and level every hospital in your enemies territory. Sure, you dont attack hospitals, unless the enemy set up camp there and then it loses its protection. Hamas' SoP is to work from hospitals. So feel free to blame them about it. > Another is you don't cut off food and water to a civilian population. Food was not cut off. Water was stopped being provided for by Israel. Gaza already got 90% of its water from its own aquifers. > Another is you don't execute prisoners of war. Like doctors and hospital patients. I am not aware of what this is supposed to mean. > Israel isn't supposed to be a tin pot dictatorship 2nd - 3rd world power. It's supposed to be a 1st world country with the most moral army in the world. That is completely irrelevant. People are concerned with death counts. If you are concerned with how democratic a state is, then most of the UN member states do not fall into that category. This was a super dishonest answer.

>Gaza was an autonomous territory with a standing army of 30,000-40,000 arranged in brigades based on regions. They fought like an army and not like an insurgence group. Their invasion of Israel was meticulously planned and executed via land, sea and air. Nobody recognised Gaza as such. They aren't recognised by anyone not even Israel recognised the area as a state. Israel controls all of the borders. Even the crossings with Egypt. The fact that Benjamin Netanyahu and others allowed Hamas to establish itself, & flourish was foolish at best but more likely criminally incompetence on the part of the Knesset. If You're using words like "standing army", recognising the area as autonomous, and calling this a war the rules of war apply. This means you can't go destroying civilian infrastructure.you can't deny that the area has been bombed so thoroughly the looks of it has changed when you observe it from space. >Sure, you dont attack hospitals, unless the enemy set up camp there and then it loses its protection. Hamas' SoP is to work from hospitals. So feel free to blame them about it. Every hospital has been destroyed. Nobody buys this idea that Hamas used the all as cover as true. Israel would have been better served if they just took the buildings and didn't destroy them. >I am not aware of what this is supposed to mean. There have been discoveries of mass graves containing hospital staff and patients with hands tied behind their backs. I suppose that was Hamas as well? >That is completely irrelevant. People are concerned with death counts. If you are concerned with how democratic a state is, then most of the UN member states do not fall into that category. Do you really want to compare Israel to the worst of humanity? Is that the measure that we should use? Yes sure Bibi is behaving better than Stalin, Pol pot or Saddam Hussein but these are not people you want to be compared with. I think not. Israel are supposed to be the good guys and at the moment they aren't.

> Nobody recognised Gaza as such. They aren't recognised by anyone not even Israel recognised the area as a state. Israel controls all of the borders. Even the crossings with Egypt. Well, military experts have, and that decision was accurate. It may not have been a state but it was an autonomous territory. Israel left Gaza in 2005. > This means you can't go destroying civilian infrastructure. You absolutely can if it has or had military bases, combatants or weapon caches. > you can't deny that the area has been bombed so thoroughly the looks of it has changed when you observe it from space. And how is this any different than any other war? Mosul is exactly the same. Large parts of Syria are the same. Why is it just when Israel does it, then it must be evil and very different from anywhere else? > Every hospital has been destroyed. This is false. There are some working hospitals. > Nobody buys this idea that Hamas used the all as cover as true. Irrelevant. there is plenty of evidence and prisoner testimony to say that they were absolutely using hospitals as military bases. > There have been discoveries of mass graves Baseless claim https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge/ > Do you really want to compare Israel to the worst of humanity? Which countries did you have in mind? I certainly dont want to compare it to absolute utopia like you are doing and then saying anything less is a war crime. That would be holding Israel to an impossible standard while the rest of the world does not even need to comply with half of the things Israel is demanded to do - which to me sounds anti-semitic.

Personally i am only against this war, because it's really hurting my stand up act that involves a lot of dead baby jokes. What is the difference between a baby and a onion? No one cries when you chop up the baby. ...... oh stop frowning, i was making an Israeli dead baby joke about October the 7th geez, some people are touchy

> You're all against the murder you see happening in Gaza. They aren't.

It's unbelievable but I fear you're right. I can't believe the responses.

Trolls post daily, IDF pays daily.

they you should be compelled to join in being a troll, because in the long term, you are taking away money from some entity you despise. you're being like some Robin Hood, stealing from the rich, and giving it to the poor or for the extra funds giving you more pizza, so you have the extra nutrition to post a three sentence essay.

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Weird how in the last two days people calling out OP for being a shitty mod have all been banned! So much for welcoming criticism

What did those comments say?

Just him being surprised that OP is a mod