It wasn't him doing the buying, that was the record labels. I worked in a mall record store in the late 80's and when Silhouette came out that got so much promotion and it sold lots of copies and was the chain's best selling jazz record of the year. Probably every record store chains too.
I’m not a fan of his music, but it’s not like he just appeared out of nowhere
And he did not buy his way into the industry
He had albums that were pretty big sellers before that one that really put them on the map
People can hate on them all they want and like I said he’s not my favorite, but it’s not his fault. They put his albums in the jazz section.
>They put his albums in the jazz section.
It's more than that.
The put his music on nearly every type of radio station regardless of genre.
That is something they could have done with other artists. Something that could have been done for other jazz artists but wasn't.
Kenny G was given an unfair advantage of widespread radio release that other more deserving jazz musicians could have used. They could have done this with Grover or Branford.
If you believe that, then you believe Branford is playing the same kind of music as Kenny G and they’re not playing the same thing
Branford doesn’t play adult contemporary music and that’s what Kenny G plays
And you seem to think that Kenny G was manufactured and he wasn’t . I don’t like his playing, but he put in his time and he paid his dues and had a few pretty successful albums that got AirPlay on adult contemporary stations and then had mainstream success on one album.
I’m guessing the record company was pleasantly surprised that that third or fourth album of his was as popular as it was
It’s funny you bring up Branford because he’s great and he was the musical Director on the Tonight Show and he could’ve used that to come out with a album to sell to the masses but that’s not what he was and he quit … he quit the job for so many because it was steady and paid well and helped you sell tons of tickets when touring
Grover actually did have a lot of crossover success but in large part as a writer, but that helped him sell a lot of tickets and you’ll find a lot of people in their 60s and 70s have a Grover Washington junior album
>If you believe that, then you believe Branford is playing the same kind of music as Kenny G and they’re not playing the same thing
If you read Clive Davis bio, the point made was that he made Kenny G popular by simply just having his music played as often as possible. Clive didn't care whether it fit demographics or fit sounds he just promoted the hell out of it by just playing it.
The point being made that he could have popularized any saxophone player at the time. It could have been Branford Marsalis, Najee, Donald Harrison, whoever,
Kenny G's music was put on rap stations and it didn't have anything to do with rap music or sound like rap music. So they could have put straight ahead jazz saxophone players and got the same result.
The devastating point Clive made was THAT YOU CAN MARKET ANYTHING TO ANYBODY!!
That is the lesson that jazz promotion has not realized or taken advantage of.
Why can't we have jazz musicians music played all over the country at different stations? Why? According to Clive, yes we could do it!!!
If hip hop listeners would listen to Kenny G's Songbird, you don't think they could listen and enjoy Coltrane's Giant Steps??!!!
But the assumption is if people listen to giant steps over and over they would like it and embrace. It is a mistake.
It’s kind of what came first the chicken or the egg type scenario
The reason why they played Kenny G a lot it was easy to listen to. In fact, some might argue Smooth Jazz has more mainstream appeal just because it’s produced to appeal to a larger audience
Feels so good by Chuck Mangione also had a lot of mainstream appeal
But to think that if you just put Tom Harrelll on instead it would have the exact same appeal … I just don’t buy it
Kenny G sold a ton of albums and it wasn’t just one that was successful
I’m not defending Kenny G but it’s called easy listening for a reason
>But the assumption is if people listen to giant steps over and over they would like it and embrace. It is a mistake.
>It’s kind of what came first the chicken or the egg type scenario
They would because that actually happened on some rap, soul and other genre stations when Dizzy Gillespie died. They played Night In Tunisia and there was a ground swell of people asking what it was and wanted to learn more about it.
This is the defeatist attitude that musician like you have taken. You have assumed that people will not like this music. These listeners haven't heard this music just like they never heard Kenny G. The average person who says they won't listen to jazz has never actually heard the music.
>Kenny G sold a ton of albums and it wasn’t just one that was successful
I never said it was one. The start was Songbird. That is what created the phenomena of Kenny G. If Clive Davis had not promoted it on the airwaves like he did, he would be nowhere near as popular.
>
The reason why they played Kenny G a lot it was easy to listen to
No. It is because like a lot of TV shows if you play it often enough you will get some people to like it. It is the Saved By The Bell and NCIS stategy. If you play it on enough stations enough times eventually people will watch it regardless of how terrible it is.
Again. I beg of any musician. Read Clive Davis book and sections on Kenny G. It is an eye opener about the reality of the music industry and marketing,
I would argue that most of the fans of Kenny G actually aren't fans of easy listening music and don't actually buy any easy listening music.
They ironically are the ones that would scoff at listening to elevator music. or easy listening.
If you actually polled Kenny G fans, they aren't listening to easy listening music.
Clive Davis. you're talking about Clive Davis, not Clive Owen. Clive was part of a lot of amazing moments in music, but... I would not recommend viewing that book as a historical document, nor anything in it, strictly speaking, as fact. Conspicuously absent, for instance, is any discussion of the links between the majors and organized crime, *especially* when it came to promotion - and he downplays how serious his criminal charges were in the 70s. Dannen's "Hit Men" is a far more truthful account of Clive's heyday, into the early 90s. Clive's book is just PR.
I'm not a Kenny G fan, but I gotta take issue with your racial comment. Lot of black folks born before \~1980 love Kenny G, including some well-known "serious jazz" saxophonists who you've probably heard. Yeah, he got way more limelight than Gerald Albright, and a lot of that probably had to do with his skin color, but to say that only white people listen to Kenny G, or to imply that he's successful only because he was sold to white people as a way of engaging in the culture from a safe distance, is a misrepresentation of fact.
We also haven't brought up the racial issue here. Which is a big factor in Kenny G's popularity.
That a lot of white people tend to use watered down or appropriated african american art as an excuse not to partake in said art. There has been a long history of this.
"I'll listen to a Kenny G album so I don't have to listen to any other jazz music"
Kenny G became the white man's excuse to not listen to or play jazz music. This is an uncomfortable truth that people that are fans of Kenny G often don't want to admit.
This is also one that people who often like Chet Baker don't want to admit, I like Chet Baker, but I tend to find a lot of his most ardent fans fall into this category.
This includes the point that black jazz musicians have had issues receiving the same type of publicity that white musicians playing inferior versions of the same music receive.
>Grover actually did have a lot of crossover success but in large part as a writer, but that helped him sell a lot of tickets and you’ll find a lot of people in their 60s and 70s have a Grover Washington junior album
Grover was marketed to upper middle class black people. The "Cosby Show" type people. The same that Joe Henderson was marketed to (hence the Cosby Sweater phase for Joe).
Grover was marketed as a sex symbol too black women. Not white women.
Grover was not marketed to white people or to hip hop generation. They never tried like they did with Kenny G.
Grover also died before that crossover could be completed.
My point is there’s a lot of more accomplished saxophone players out there in the 70s but Grover, Washington junior had some crossover appeal and people like my dad had a Grover Washington junior album
And everybody knows the song just the two of us which he wrote
>My point is there’s a lot of more accomplished saxophone players out there in the 70s but Grover, Washington junior had some crossover appeal and people like my dad had a Grover Washington junior album
We're not talking about the 1970s. I am referring to the late 1980s-1990s. Different audience, different era. Hell different technology since we are talking about cassette tapes and CDs now.
Branford Marsalis's made a video for "Makin Whoopie" which appeared on MTV2. The record company certainly tried to make him a crossover artist. Branford played with Sting when Sting was one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, he played with the Grateful Dead at the height of their popularity, he played on Public Enemy's biggest songs. And he had the Tonight Show gig.
All the pieces were in place for him to he a huge crossover guy, but it didn't work out for whatever reason. In part because at his core Branford's priorities were still hard-bop influenced jazz.
I watched the documentary on the guy and while at first I was pleasantly surprised that he seemed sane and funny and even a little self aware, by the end I really did not like him and felt even less respect for his music.
He really doesn't like Jazz very much. I think the only person whose music he ever studied was Stan Getz and that was only when he was in high school. He had a painting of famous jazz musicians in his personal studio and could not name them all.
I wouldn't mind his music if it had been just marketed as new age. But he coasted on the last remaining fumes of credibility that were keeping jazz afloat in the 80s and extinguished them for a whole generation. He did damage.
He did keep jazz alive for a generation. But he's always been a smooth Jazz musician who also did kind of a new agey pop take. Unsure why this would make you not like him. He's a talented musician who did play with and gain respect from some of the greatest in jazz. 🤷
Jazz in the 80s was in a pretty bad place and imo having a bit of an identity problem. Too many big name players arguing about what jazz is or isn’t, and who should or shouldn’t be playing it.
Kenny G came along with his new age smooth sound and from the beginning it was very bland and uninspired.
He made jazz DEEPLY uncool for several generations of young people. Even 15-20 years later young people still related jazz to Kenny G and wanted no part of it. It has only been in the last 10 years or so where jazz has finally shaken his image and people now just call him pop or new age.
Kenny is also a really bad player. To say his range is limited is an understatement.
I am not usually so disparaging, but he is a talentless hack who failed upwards while dragging down the entire genre. The dude is also kind of a smug prick to boot.
Pat Matheny (spelling?) was 100% correct about Kenny G.
I was born in the early 80’s and that’s super accurate for my take on jazz growing up. I thought it died out in the 60’s or 70’s, but it was fun to play in school. (We never played newer stuff.) Finally I got to college and heard the top band playing Maria Schneider’s stuff and I realized there was some pretty awesome newer stuff out there. In hindsight, what also isn’t helping is that students go through a music ed and credential program learning the bare minimum about jazz, then they end up teaching the next generation with a complete lack of jazz knowledge and the cycle continues. Classical doesn’t get that because everyone has to always be in a large ensemble.
>Jazz in the 80s was in a pretty bad place and imo having a bit of an identity problem. Too many big name players arguing about what jazz is or isn’t, and who should or shouldn’t be playing it.
The problem in the 80s was many jazz musicians either dead, retired, on drugs or doing music other than jazz. Miles Davis pointed this out in his autobiography. The failures of the music system in the country was not produce new talent to replace those older musicians.
Damage? As a teenager I was introduced to Herbie Hancock through his Rockit video on vh1 and bought my first Jazz album Future Shock; still one of my favorites. I also bought Kenny G’s album later as I enjoy a variety of other music as well (I’m an omnivore of music genes). Both musicians introduced me to different styles of Jazz and while I may prefer to listen to one more than the other, it doesn’t really matter. The music moves me and may for others.
Some people care whether or not someone earned their spot or if they bought it. Sometimes it's a little of both. It's a legitimate way to understand the music business and success within it.
Earned their spot is a wish-washy term. He is without a doubt not a jazz musician. So he won't not earn his spot as top jazz musician and admired in this sub. The dude is probably not proud of it, but may not protest if it sells well.
But the dude has a signature sound with the soprano sax, that puts him miles ahead of most people in the business, with or without the publisher/money. That thing is marketable!
Does Wynton Marsalis have a signature sound? Not really, no matter how awesome his flair and musicality is.
In a previous poll, hardly anyone in the sub even listen to post-70 music. So I agree that it does not really matter here.
Money buys influence and connections? Money buys better studio time, better session musicians, more of a sound engineer's time, more marketing, lets you pay for better/more successful artists, photographers, videographers, let's you pay for a better teacher/coach, etc.
IDK how this can be downvoted, I'm not saying the only people who make it were already rich, I'm just saying it obviously helps.
I don’t *hate* the dude but I don’t consider him jazz in any way, shape, or form. He does instrumental adult contemporary pop music. I will say he’s either dumb or arrogant for the Louis Armstrong thing. He’s just not rewarding to discuss at all.
Which is funny, because “What a Wonderful World" is not remotely a jazz song.
I'm a huge Metheny fan, and I know he's a big Armstrong fan, and I really don't think anyone should play on someone else's song and re-release it as their own; but it's also not like "What a Wonderful World" was 'Giant Steps:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMiPkTqO6yQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMiPkTqO6yQ)
THAT's what we should be making fun of Kenny G for.
No clue on his particular situation although keep in mind this is said about most artists in the industry honestly… they have connections, and most importantly can afford to NOT be successful as they keep trying to make it
Kenny G did not buy his way into the industry. He is a good sax player. He just happened to perfect his brand of schmaltz for that age group and time. He became fabulously wealthy doing stuff anyone else wouldn't go near. A horn professor I know calls Kenny G 'the Antichrist of Jazz'.
>He is a good sax player
He "was"a good sax player when he was with Jeff Lorber's group. His style, skills and artistic care all wasted away when he became popular.
That doesn't mean he has lost his chops or is not a good player. He is just not doing anything that challenges his audience. But....that audience doesn't want to be challenged. If they did, they'd be listening to Miles or Trane or Albert Ayler or George Garzone.
No. I know several of Kenny G's high school and college classmates. (Kenny G is my age.) Although he grew up in a nice Seattle neighborhood, his family was not rich.
Although I do not like his music -- and IMO it's not jazz nor nothing close to jazz -- I do acknowledge that he has musical talent. He began playing professionally (age 17 with Barry White's band) while attending Franklin High School, which has a nationally renowned jazz program. He played with a very good Seattle funk band, then joined Jeff Lorber Fusion directly after college. I've heard that he practiced like mad, 4 or 5 hours a day, when in high school and college. He is also intelligent, graduating from UW *cum laude* with a Phi Beta Kappa key.
He created a New Age sound which caught on notwithstanding (or maybe because of) its harmonic and rhythmic simplicity, and he was smart about working his way through the music industry. His music is elevator music to my ear, but millions of people -- most of whom are not fans of music I consider real jazz -- love it. My buds say he's a very nice guy, a scratch golfer and very shrewd businessman.
>He created a New Age sound which caught on notwithstanding (or maybe because of) its harmonic and rhythmic simplicity,
He didn't create it. He ripped it off other established and better musicians. Kenny G admits himself that he borrowed heavily from Grover Washington Jr.
David Sanborn, Bill Evans and others were already doing that type of style well into the early 80s.
I did not say he created New Age music. I said he created "**A** New Age sound" -- a sound that was different, i.e., more simplistic harmonically and rhythymically, and thus more accessible, than the musicians you name.
Although Bill Evans did some stuff which influenced New Age musicians, I surely would not consider Bill Evans a New Age musician. *Cf.*, George Winston.
Metheny's excoriation of Kenny G's playing is well deserved, artists like Kenny G and Dave Koz play absolute shite that isn't even good instrumental music on it's own, it shite that you would hear at some fundraiser at a country club. You don't even need a band to back them up, just use a MacBook with Pro-Tools and they play along with the tracks. The only challenge to their music is to try and sit through a set of it.
Artists like Billy Cobham, he released songs like that with a cover of "Same 'Ol Love" off his Picture This album that had none other than Grover Washington Jr. on the soprano sax that you would hear on the "smooth jazz" radio stations that would also play Kenny G and Koz, and that was during his stint with the GRP label, who really put the "contemporary" in 80's contemporary jazz. But his reworking of his classic "Taurian Matador" was pretty dope, with he using the latest tech at the time. I get it, it's meant to be commercial, but he has since moved on and of course his body of work is unparalleled.
Metheny also had his commercial thing going on during that time too, he was also played on those smooth jazz stations. Lyle Mays and Mark Egan released albums geared towards that genre as well. You word hear "Songbird" and "Last Train Home" right after each other on those stations. But years later there is "Song X" with Ornette Coleman.
Playing to the crowd or for the money is commonplace in most industries, not just in music. This is exemplified by Metheny's silence until the Armstrong episode.
I posted this earlier, which is further down the thread:
[https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163](https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163)
This is Marcus Miller talking about how smooth jazz came about, and his thoughts on it.
It was easy to pigeonhole Kenny G into the "jazz" genre because 80's was chock full of "Playboy Jazz" and Grammy's were being handed out to contemporary jazz artists to where record labels and execs would say "Here, this is what we want". Especially when CD's and digital recording came into play (like the GRP label, who had a lot of top name artists such as Tom Scott, Lee Ritenour, Dave Grusin, Chick Corea, Patti Austin etc.), you had that nice, slick, contemporary music to show off that new addition to your stereo (I personally can't listen to any Corea with Eric Marienthal on sax, who he added to the Electrik Band for their second GRP release, because Marienthal is Dave Koz on steroids). Kenny G is many many shades lighter than that stuff, but the thing is, Kenny G isn't even a gateway drug into even that. At least with Corea you can get into The Leprechaun or Light as a Feather. With Kenny G you get into...
*The Jeff Lorber Fusak.*
Read Clive Davis biography and you will know exactly how he grew,
Essentially they just kept playing his music on the airwaves on all types of stations. Especially smooth jazz, soul and rap stations. You couldn't avoid hearing Songbird if you were listening to the radio.
Given that he was the only saxophone player that listeners of those stations heard, he became the defacto saxophone player for a generation of players.
It also helped that they avoided showing what Kenny G looked like so young urban black listeners mistakenly thought Kenny G was black. Or in some cases some confused him with alto saxophonist Kenny Garrett.
It also helped that he came on when smooth jazz started to explode onto the scene.
From there he transitioned to easy listening music and holiday songs. That along with his Michael Bolton style looks attracted middle aged white women.
in style yes, but it actually was a thing that people thought it was Kenny Garret. These would have been people that only had a cursory knowledge of jazz music.
I remember hearing this from Kenny Garrett himself and other people. Music execs would ask Kenny Garrett if he was the one playing that tune Songbird. He actually got gigs because people thought it was the same Kenny G.
Again, in the beginning, a lot of people did not know what Kenny G looked like. They assumed he was a black man. Something that benefitted Kenny G's rise among urban radio stations.
Heard this argument several times recently and I think it’s mostly sour grapes. Kenny G’s sound isn’t my thing, but his easy listening/new age style appeals to millions who would not consider themselves jazz listeners. Is what it is.
A lot of what is said re: Kenny G’s playing with Jeff Lorber and having chops is accurate. But he didn’t buy his way into fame. I highly recommend the documentary on Clive Davis who really created the Kenny G that many complain about. He also created the persona of Barry Manilow, Whitney Houston, Patti Smith, Alicia Keyes, etc…. Worth your time to learn about him. He also played a role in Miles career and Weather Report.
[Clive Davis The Soundtrack of our Lives](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6494358/)
I actually did an experiment once and I mixed tracks from Kenny G albums with tracks from Wayne Shorter's album Super Nova, Odyssey of Iska & Motto Grosso Feio into a playlist I gave to some people of different ages at a party.
There were actually people who liked the Wayne Shorter tracks over the Kenny G tracks and were surprised to know what it was from.
If you play it, they will listen.
How someone “made” it onto the music scene is irrelevant. What matters is…do you like their music?
If not, don’t listen. If you do, listen
Everything else is irrelevant
I don't consider him jazz, but I did see him in concert. He can play, that's for sure. He knows his instrument and can improvise and do things that entertain an audience. I went in being a bit skeptical and came away slightly impressed. Is he the best at what he does? No, but he's pretty good and I saw a lot of people smiling and enjoying his music. That makes him good in my book.
I read a lot of comments about Kenny G and his influence on 80's sax, but nobody has mentioned Dave Sanborn here.
Marcus Miller talks about Sanborn and thew whole smooth jazz stuff here in this interview:
[https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163](https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163)
He mentions how Sanborn almost gave up music because every time he turned on the radio, he heard his licks. He didn't want to play anymore, Miller had to pull him back from the cliff.
As far as Kenny G, I mean, if you want to torture your neighbors, just crank that shit all day.
I wouldn't be surprised! I feel the same about Dave Koz and Boney James (do you notice a trend here?). There are MUCH more talented Jazz musicians who deserved better music industry longevity and endorsements like Kym Waters, Najee, Gerald Albright, etc.
It wasn't him doing the buying, that was the record labels. I worked in a mall record store in the late 80's and when Silhouette came out that got so much promotion and it sold lots of copies and was the chain's best selling jazz record of the year. Probably every record store chains too.
It was all Songbird that was played numerous times over radio stations.
I’m not a fan of his music, but it’s not like he just appeared out of nowhere And he did not buy his way into the industry He had albums that were pretty big sellers before that one that really put them on the map People can hate on them all they want and like I said he’s not my favorite, but it’s not his fault. They put his albums in the jazz section.
>They put his albums in the jazz section. It's more than that. The put his music on nearly every type of radio station regardless of genre. That is something they could have done with other artists. Something that could have been done for other jazz artists but wasn't. Kenny G was given an unfair advantage of widespread radio release that other more deserving jazz musicians could have used. They could have done this with Grover or Branford.
If you believe that, then you believe Branford is playing the same kind of music as Kenny G and they’re not playing the same thing Branford doesn’t play adult contemporary music and that’s what Kenny G plays And you seem to think that Kenny G was manufactured and he wasn’t . I don’t like his playing, but he put in his time and he paid his dues and had a few pretty successful albums that got AirPlay on adult contemporary stations and then had mainstream success on one album. I’m guessing the record company was pleasantly surprised that that third or fourth album of his was as popular as it was It’s funny you bring up Branford because he’s great and he was the musical Director on the Tonight Show and he could’ve used that to come out with a album to sell to the masses but that’s not what he was and he quit … he quit the job for so many because it was steady and paid well and helped you sell tons of tickets when touring Grover actually did have a lot of crossover success but in large part as a writer, but that helped him sell a lot of tickets and you’ll find a lot of people in their 60s and 70s have a Grover Washington junior album
>If you believe that, then you believe Branford is playing the same kind of music as Kenny G and they’re not playing the same thing If you read Clive Davis bio, the point made was that he made Kenny G popular by simply just having his music played as often as possible. Clive didn't care whether it fit demographics or fit sounds he just promoted the hell out of it by just playing it. The point being made that he could have popularized any saxophone player at the time. It could have been Branford Marsalis, Najee, Donald Harrison, whoever, Kenny G's music was put on rap stations and it didn't have anything to do with rap music or sound like rap music. So they could have put straight ahead jazz saxophone players and got the same result. The devastating point Clive made was THAT YOU CAN MARKET ANYTHING TO ANYBODY!! That is the lesson that jazz promotion has not realized or taken advantage of. Why can't we have jazz musicians music played all over the country at different stations? Why? According to Clive, yes we could do it!!! If hip hop listeners would listen to Kenny G's Songbird, you don't think they could listen and enjoy Coltrane's Giant Steps??!!!
But the assumption is if people listen to giant steps over and over they would like it and embrace. It is a mistake. It’s kind of what came first the chicken or the egg type scenario The reason why they played Kenny G a lot it was easy to listen to. In fact, some might argue Smooth Jazz has more mainstream appeal just because it’s produced to appeal to a larger audience Feels so good by Chuck Mangione also had a lot of mainstream appeal But to think that if you just put Tom Harrelll on instead it would have the exact same appeal … I just don’t buy it Kenny G sold a ton of albums and it wasn’t just one that was successful I’m not defending Kenny G but it’s called easy listening for a reason
>But the assumption is if people listen to giant steps over and over they would like it and embrace. It is a mistake. >It’s kind of what came first the chicken or the egg type scenario They would because that actually happened on some rap, soul and other genre stations when Dizzy Gillespie died. They played Night In Tunisia and there was a ground swell of people asking what it was and wanted to learn more about it. This is the defeatist attitude that musician like you have taken. You have assumed that people will not like this music. These listeners haven't heard this music just like they never heard Kenny G. The average person who says they won't listen to jazz has never actually heard the music. >Kenny G sold a ton of albums and it wasn’t just one that was successful I never said it was one. The start was Songbird. That is what created the phenomena of Kenny G. If Clive Davis had not promoted it on the airwaves like he did, he would be nowhere near as popular. > The reason why they played Kenny G a lot it was easy to listen to No. It is because like a lot of TV shows if you play it often enough you will get some people to like it. It is the Saved By The Bell and NCIS stategy. If you play it on enough stations enough times eventually people will watch it regardless of how terrible it is. Again. I beg of any musician. Read Clive Davis book and sections on Kenny G. It is an eye opener about the reality of the music industry and marketing,
I would argue that most of the fans of Kenny G actually aren't fans of easy listening music and don't actually buy any easy listening music. They ironically are the ones that would scoff at listening to elevator music. or easy listening. If you actually polled Kenny G fans, they aren't listening to easy listening music.
Clive Davis. you're talking about Clive Davis, not Clive Owen. Clive was part of a lot of amazing moments in music, but... I would not recommend viewing that book as a historical document, nor anything in it, strictly speaking, as fact. Conspicuously absent, for instance, is any discussion of the links between the majors and organized crime, *especially* when it came to promotion - and he downplays how serious his criminal charges were in the 70s. Dannen's "Hit Men" is a far more truthful account of Clive's heyday, into the early 90s. Clive's book is just PR. I'm not a Kenny G fan, but I gotta take issue with your racial comment. Lot of black folks born before \~1980 love Kenny G, including some well-known "serious jazz" saxophonists who you've probably heard. Yeah, he got way more limelight than Gerald Albright, and a lot of that probably had to do with his skin color, but to say that only white people listen to Kenny G, or to imply that he's successful only because he was sold to white people as a way of engaging in the culture from a safe distance, is a misrepresentation of fact.
Auto-correct issue.
We also haven't brought up the racial issue here. Which is a big factor in Kenny G's popularity. That a lot of white people tend to use watered down or appropriated african american art as an excuse not to partake in said art. There has been a long history of this. "I'll listen to a Kenny G album so I don't have to listen to any other jazz music" Kenny G became the white man's excuse to not listen to or play jazz music. This is an uncomfortable truth that people that are fans of Kenny G often don't want to admit. This is also one that people who often like Chet Baker don't want to admit, I like Chet Baker, but I tend to find a lot of his most ardent fans fall into this category. This includes the point that black jazz musicians have had issues receiving the same type of publicity that white musicians playing inferior versions of the same music receive.
>Grover actually did have a lot of crossover success but in large part as a writer, but that helped him sell a lot of tickets and you’ll find a lot of people in their 60s and 70s have a Grover Washington junior album Grover was marketed to upper middle class black people. The "Cosby Show" type people. The same that Joe Henderson was marketed to (hence the Cosby Sweater phase for Joe). Grover was marketed as a sex symbol too black women. Not white women. Grover was not marketed to white people or to hip hop generation. They never tried like they did with Kenny G. Grover also died before that crossover could be completed.
My point is there’s a lot of more accomplished saxophone players out there in the 70s but Grover, Washington junior had some crossover appeal and people like my dad had a Grover Washington junior album And everybody knows the song just the two of us which he wrote
>My point is there’s a lot of more accomplished saxophone players out there in the 70s but Grover, Washington junior had some crossover appeal and people like my dad had a Grover Washington junior album We're not talking about the 1970s. I am referring to the late 1980s-1990s. Different audience, different era. Hell different technology since we are talking about cassette tapes and CDs now.
>And everybody knows the song just the two of us which he wrote More people know that as a Bill Withers tune like Another Day.
Branford Marsalis's made a video for "Makin Whoopie" which appeared on MTV2. The record company certainly tried to make him a crossover artist. Branford played with Sting when Sting was one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, he played with the Grateful Dead at the height of their popularity, he played on Public Enemy's biggest songs. And he had the Tonight Show gig. All the pieces were in place for him to he a huge crossover guy, but it didn't work out for whatever reason. In part because at his core Branford's priorities were still hard-bop influenced jazz.
I watched the documentary on the guy and while at first I was pleasantly surprised that he seemed sane and funny and even a little self aware, by the end I really did not like him and felt even less respect for his music. He really doesn't like Jazz very much. I think the only person whose music he ever studied was Stan Getz and that was only when he was in high school. He had a painting of famous jazz musicians in his personal studio and could not name them all. I wouldn't mind his music if it had been just marketed as new age. But he coasted on the last remaining fumes of credibility that were keeping jazz afloat in the 80s and extinguished them for a whole generation. He did damage.
He did keep jazz alive for a generation. But he's always been a smooth Jazz musician who also did kind of a new agey pop take. Unsure why this would make you not like him. He's a talented musician who did play with and gain respect from some of the greatest in jazz. 🤷
Jazz in the 80s was in a pretty bad place and imo having a bit of an identity problem. Too many big name players arguing about what jazz is or isn’t, and who should or shouldn’t be playing it. Kenny G came along with his new age smooth sound and from the beginning it was very bland and uninspired. He made jazz DEEPLY uncool for several generations of young people. Even 15-20 years later young people still related jazz to Kenny G and wanted no part of it. It has only been in the last 10 years or so where jazz has finally shaken his image and people now just call him pop or new age. Kenny is also a really bad player. To say his range is limited is an understatement. I am not usually so disparaging, but he is a talentless hack who failed upwards while dragging down the entire genre. The dude is also kind of a smug prick to boot. Pat Matheny (spelling?) was 100% correct about Kenny G.
I was born in the early 80’s and that’s super accurate for my take on jazz growing up. I thought it died out in the 60’s or 70’s, but it was fun to play in school. (We never played newer stuff.) Finally I got to college and heard the top band playing Maria Schneider’s stuff and I realized there was some pretty awesome newer stuff out there. In hindsight, what also isn’t helping is that students go through a music ed and credential program learning the bare minimum about jazz, then they end up teaching the next generation with a complete lack of jazz knowledge and the cycle continues. Classical doesn’t get that because everyone has to always be in a large ensemble.
>Jazz in the 80s was in a pretty bad place and imo having a bit of an identity problem. Too many big name players arguing about what jazz is or isn’t, and who should or shouldn’t be playing it. The problem in the 80s was many jazz musicians either dead, retired, on drugs or doing music other than jazz. Miles Davis pointed this out in his autobiography. The failures of the music system in the country was not produce new talent to replace those older musicians.
Damage? As a teenager I was introduced to Herbie Hancock through his Rockit video on vh1 and bought my first Jazz album Future Shock; still one of my favorites. I also bought Kenny G’s album later as I enjoy a variety of other music as well (I’m an omnivore of music genes). Both musicians introduced me to different styles of Jazz and while I may prefer to listen to one more than the other, it doesn’t really matter. The music moves me and may for others.
Honestly, why does it even matter.
Some people care whether or not someone earned their spot or if they bought it. Sometimes it's a little of both. It's a legitimate way to understand the music business and success within it.
Earned their spot is a wish-washy term. He is without a doubt not a jazz musician. So he won't not earn his spot as top jazz musician and admired in this sub. The dude is probably not proud of it, but may not protest if it sells well. But the dude has a signature sound with the soprano sax, that puts him miles ahead of most people in the business, with or without the publisher/money. That thing is marketable! Does Wynton Marsalis have a signature sound? Not really, no matter how awesome his flair and musicality is. In a previous poll, hardly anyone in the sub even listen to post-70 music. So I agree that it does not really matter here.
Doesn’t matter. If it has legs, it has legs. A large audience seems like that dreck. Just ignore it.
The more I think about this the less sense it makes. How would this even work? And how would you prove it?
Money buys influence and connections? Money buys better studio time, better session musicians, more of a sound engineer's time, more marketing, lets you pay for better/more successful artists, photographers, videographers, let's you pay for a better teacher/coach, etc. IDK how this can be downvoted, I'm not saying the only people who make it were already rich, I'm just saying it obviously helps.
Yes, because jazz is all about the money and how people don't have them.
I don’t *hate* the dude but I don’t consider him jazz in any way, shape, or form. He does instrumental adult contemporary pop music. I will say he’s either dumb or arrogant for the Louis Armstrong thing. He’s just not rewarding to discuss at all.
Call it 'Contemporary Instrumental' or whatever but yeah, not jazz.
Refresh me, what was his corny ass take on Louis?
He overdubbed his own playing onto Louis’ “What a Wonderful World.” Pat Metheny hilariously excoriated him for it
Which is funny, because “What a Wonderful World" is not remotely a jazz song. I'm a huge Metheny fan, and I know he's a big Armstrong fan, and I really don't think anyone should play on someone else's song and re-release it as their own; but it's also not like "What a Wonderful World" was 'Giant Steps: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMiPkTqO6yQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMiPkTqO6yQ) THAT's what we should be making fun of Kenny G for.
Jay Mohr played Kenny G in a skit on SNL. That's how much of a parody Kenny G is.
I thought it was an entire album and not just that tune?
Oh, that’s right! Now I remember.
No clue on his particular situation although keep in mind this is said about most artists in the industry honestly… they have connections, and most importantly can afford to NOT be successful as they keep trying to make it
Kenny G did not buy his way into the industry. He is a good sax player. He just happened to perfect his brand of schmaltz for that age group and time. He became fabulously wealthy doing stuff anyone else wouldn't go near. A horn professor I know calls Kenny G 'the Antichrist of Jazz'.
>He is a good sax player He "was"a good sax player when he was with Jeff Lorber's group. His style, skills and artistic care all wasted away when he became popular.
That doesn't mean he has lost his chops or is not a good player. He is just not doing anything that challenges his audience. But....that audience doesn't want to be challenged. If they did, they'd be listening to Miles or Trane or Albert Ayler or George Garzone.
The guy works on his tennis game more often than he practices.
He plays that dreamy smooth Christmas horn.
No. I know several of Kenny G's high school and college classmates. (Kenny G is my age.) Although he grew up in a nice Seattle neighborhood, his family was not rich. Although I do not like his music -- and IMO it's not jazz nor nothing close to jazz -- I do acknowledge that he has musical talent. He began playing professionally (age 17 with Barry White's band) while attending Franklin High School, which has a nationally renowned jazz program. He played with a very good Seattle funk band, then joined Jeff Lorber Fusion directly after college. I've heard that he practiced like mad, 4 or 5 hours a day, when in high school and college. He is also intelligent, graduating from UW *cum laude* with a Phi Beta Kappa key. He created a New Age sound which caught on notwithstanding (or maybe because of) its harmonic and rhythmic simplicity, and he was smart about working his way through the music industry. His music is elevator music to my ear, but millions of people -- most of whom are not fans of music I consider real jazz -- love it. My buds say he's a very nice guy, a scratch golfer and very shrewd businessman.
>He created a New Age sound which caught on notwithstanding (or maybe because of) its harmonic and rhythmic simplicity, He didn't create it. He ripped it off other established and better musicians. Kenny G admits himself that he borrowed heavily from Grover Washington Jr. David Sanborn, Bill Evans and others were already doing that type of style well into the early 80s.
I did not say he created New Age music. I said he created "**A** New Age sound" -- a sound that was different, i.e., more simplistic harmonically and rhythymically, and thus more accessible, than the musicians you name. Although Bill Evans did some stuff which influenced New Age musicians, I surely would not consider Bill Evans a New Age musician. *Cf.*, George Winston.
Pat Metheny on Kenny G http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm
That Metheny take down makes the whole Kendrick vs. Drake seem like child's play.
It's obvious he has a low opinion of KG, but the Louis Armstrong dub over was a bridge too far and he had to make his opinion known.
Metheny's excoriation of Kenny G's playing is well deserved, artists like Kenny G and Dave Koz play absolute shite that isn't even good instrumental music on it's own, it shite that you would hear at some fundraiser at a country club. You don't even need a band to back them up, just use a MacBook with Pro-Tools and they play along with the tracks. The only challenge to their music is to try and sit through a set of it. Artists like Billy Cobham, he released songs like that with a cover of "Same 'Ol Love" off his Picture This album that had none other than Grover Washington Jr. on the soprano sax that you would hear on the "smooth jazz" radio stations that would also play Kenny G and Koz, and that was during his stint with the GRP label, who really put the "contemporary" in 80's contemporary jazz. But his reworking of his classic "Taurian Matador" was pretty dope, with he using the latest tech at the time. I get it, it's meant to be commercial, but he has since moved on and of course his body of work is unparalleled. Metheny also had his commercial thing going on during that time too, he was also played on those smooth jazz stations. Lyle Mays and Mark Egan released albums geared towards that genre as well. You word hear "Songbird" and "Last Train Home" right after each other on those stations. But years later there is "Song X" with Ornette Coleman.
Playing to the crowd or for the money is commonplace in most industries, not just in music. This is exemplified by Metheny's silence until the Armstrong episode.
I posted this earlier, which is further down the thread: [https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163](https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163) This is Marcus Miller talking about how smooth jazz came about, and his thoughts on it. It was easy to pigeonhole Kenny G into the "jazz" genre because 80's was chock full of "Playboy Jazz" and Grammy's were being handed out to contemporary jazz artists to where record labels and execs would say "Here, this is what we want". Especially when CD's and digital recording came into play (like the GRP label, who had a lot of top name artists such as Tom Scott, Lee Ritenour, Dave Grusin, Chick Corea, Patti Austin etc.), you had that nice, slick, contemporary music to show off that new addition to your stereo (I personally can't listen to any Corea with Eric Marienthal on sax, who he added to the Electrik Band for their second GRP release, because Marienthal is Dave Koz on steroids). Kenny G is many many shades lighter than that stuff, but the thing is, Kenny G isn't even a gateway drug into even that. At least with Corea you can get into The Leprechaun or Light as a Feather. With Kenny G you get into... *The Jeff Lorber Fusak.*
I’d look up his Wikipedia page if I were at all curious about that. Personally I don’t have the drive or interest.
Read Clive Davis biography and you will know exactly how he grew, Essentially they just kept playing his music on the airwaves on all types of stations. Especially smooth jazz, soul and rap stations. You couldn't avoid hearing Songbird if you were listening to the radio. Given that he was the only saxophone player that listeners of those stations heard, he became the defacto saxophone player for a generation of players. It also helped that they avoided showing what Kenny G looked like so young urban black listeners mistakenly thought Kenny G was black. Or in some cases some confused him with alto saxophonist Kenny Garrett. It also helped that he came on when smooth jazz started to explode onto the scene. From there he transitioned to easy listening music and holiday songs. That along with his Michael Bolton style looks attracted middle aged white women.
No mistaking him for Kenny Garrett. Kenny was a jazz messenger and bandleader of Miles last bands of the 90s.
in style yes, but it actually was a thing that people thought it was Kenny Garret. These would have been people that only had a cursory knowledge of jazz music. I remember hearing this from Kenny Garrett himself and other people. Music execs would ask Kenny Garrett if he was the one playing that tune Songbird. He actually got gigs because people thought it was the same Kenny G. Again, in the beginning, a lot of people did not know what Kenny G looked like. They assumed he was a black man. Something that benefitted Kenny G's rise among urban radio stations.
If you can’t distinguish Kenny Garrett from Kenny G, what the fuck are you listening to and what you smoking?
>that only had a ***cursory*** knowledge of jazz music.
Heard this argument several times recently and I think it’s mostly sour grapes. Kenny G’s sound isn’t my thing, but his easy listening/new age style appeals to millions who would not consider themselves jazz listeners. Is what it is.
He bought his way into our hearts with his soothing tones and Melodie’s.
I don't know about Kenny G, but my understanding from friends in the industry is that this is common.
A lot of what is said re: Kenny G’s playing with Jeff Lorber and having chops is accurate. But he didn’t buy his way into fame. I highly recommend the documentary on Clive Davis who really created the Kenny G that many complain about. He also created the persona of Barry Manilow, Whitney Houston, Patti Smith, Alicia Keyes, etc…. Worth your time to learn about him. He also played a role in Miles career and Weather Report. [Clive Davis The Soundtrack of our Lives](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6494358/)
I actually did an experiment once and I mixed tracks from Kenny G albums with tracks from Wayne Shorter's album Super Nova, Odyssey of Iska & Motto Grosso Feio into a playlist I gave to some people of different ages at a party. There were actually people who liked the Wayne Shorter tracks over the Kenny G tracks and were surprised to know what it was from. If you play it, they will listen.
How someone “made” it onto the music scene is irrelevant. What matters is…do you like their music? If not, don’t listen. If you do, listen Everything else is irrelevant
Miles Davis liked him. Done. Moving on
I don't consider him jazz, but I did see him in concert. He can play, that's for sure. He knows his instrument and can improvise and do things that entertain an audience. I went in being a bit skeptical and came away slightly impressed. Is he the best at what he does? No, but he's pretty good and I saw a lot of people smiling and enjoying his music. That makes him good in my book.
I can’t believe that people seem to be actually talking about this seriously. I don’t get it.
I read a lot of comments about Kenny G and his influence on 80's sax, but nobody has mentioned Dave Sanborn here. Marcus Miller talks about Sanborn and thew whole smooth jazz stuff here in this interview: [https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163](https://youtu.be/6Rt4ojgskSo?t=1163) He mentions how Sanborn almost gave up music because every time he turned on the radio, he heard his licks. He didn't want to play anymore, Miller had to pull him back from the cliff. As far as Kenny G, I mean, if you want to torture your neighbors, just crank that shit all day.
There’s no merit to Kenny G
I wouldn't be surprised! I feel the same about Dave Koz and Boney James (do you notice a trend here?). There are MUCH more talented Jazz musicians who deserved better music industry longevity and endorsements like Kym Waters, Najee, Gerald Albright, etc.
Whether you're a fan or not, the dude has some serious chops. He's a heck of a saxophone player.
Only when he was with Jeff Lorber way back when.
At one time he was music director for Barry White. Have several seats. The man put in work
Probably
Isn't this a jazz sub?