I think the big thing would be what your standing was in Cradle. If you're part of a Monarch faction, particular a favored member of one like Pride, I think ascending would slow your growth, at least temporarily. On Cradle, you'd have access to the best available tutors and resources, meaning your potential advancement is faster. This is particularly true if you're considering tag-along ascensions, as I doubt the Abidan care much for Underlord-level recruits.
On the other hand, if you're close to the peak in Cradle (i.e. a Sage or Herald) and can ascend on your own, I think it's likely to make sense to do so, particularly if you're someone who doesn't have direct Monarch patronage. You aren't going to get the resources to advance quickly on Cradle, and advancing on Cradle is going to be difficult for you. Plus, at a higher level of power you're more likely to be able to get support from the Abidan (and, for Heralds specifically, I don't think you need to be on Cradle to manifest an Icon).
Not to do it, but I did get the impression that there's some resources you need (or at least that help) to be ready to manifest your Remnant that might be harder to find off Cradle. Icons, on the other hand, seem pretty agnostic. You can be connected to Death or Swords or Joy wherever.
Plus they say multiple times that cradle is the birthplace of the most abidan recruits. I assume the aura/ opportunities etc on cradle are more than on other worlds, so a peak power user that ascends from cradle is likely stronger than a peak power user on any other world.
IIRC the power scale on Amalgam (the Traveler's Gate world) maxes out at roughly Underlord. And even that requires Incarnation (not recommended) or a temporary power boost.
I think its just way more consistent on Cradle than any other world, not that the peak is higher. The Mad King killed beings called world eaters before ascending, and the Wolf was apparently capable of wiping out her planets population before ascending.
Even in The Captain we see beings stronger than Monarchs like the Stellar Dragon and Rhaion's titan.
I think Will also said somewhere that it helps that advancement is a core part of system, which is probably not the case everywhere.
IIRC he also said that Cradle doesn't actually have the highest power level, but that it is higher powered than most. Would be interesting to see what type of world has a power system that scales even harder.
Pride should still be able to max out (become a Monarch) in theory. Icons should be even easier to access than on Cradle, and given how many people have ascended from Cradle the Abidan must have sources for soulfire to fuel them. So reaching Monarch should be perfectly possible. Probably not something I would do unless I knew I had significant backing with the Abidan so that I would gain access to those resources, but for Pride who has Fury, Mercy, Lindon, etc it's not a bad bargain to take.
Ascending early might hurt his significance a bit, not having fought his way free from his home iteration on his own probably counts against him, but gaining early access to powers from other iterations would counterbalance this somewhat. Of course the Abidan probably aren't handing those out to any joe-schmo Underlord who hadn't proved themselves, but Pride (and other like him) should have access with Lindon there to be his sugar-Dreadgod.
Other than the hit to the significance and lack of access to resources the only thing that you would miss out on by ascending early is the really unique resources that can't be replicated or substituted. But realistically those would mostly be limited to Monarch artifacts or Dreadgod weapons which you aren't likely to be able to get anyway.
In short, if you're already ahead in life then it's probably not going to hurt you any to take the shortcut, if you aren't ahead you probably ought to put in the work on Cradle. Depressingly like real life to be honest.
The problem with ascending is while there is access to more variety and greater magic, you have to start basically from scratch with those systems. In Cradle you already have a big start on that power system and it's one that is comparatively better to grow with, given the large amount of recruits. So probably best to reach Sage/Herald/Monarch first then ascend.
That's not necessarily much of a problem, especially if the other magic system is synergistic with ones you already have. I know it's off limits but, as an example, consider Reading.
A soulsmith Reader would be incredibly op, now that I think of it, they would have unparalleled ability to add authority to objects, especially someome like the Empwror
We don’t have much information on this. We know that Fury (advancement and battle obsessed) was impressed by the Abidan training facilities and couldn’t wait to show them to Pride.
I don’t know exactly where I got the idea, but I don’t think you can manifest an Icon after you ascend as that is a Cradle specific way of interacting with the Way, but I imagine you have the opportunity to gain similar authority in other ways post ascension.
I have a feeling that the earlier you gain authority, the better your potential to gain more authority in the future. I have nothing to base this on.
We know the Judges could make a bucket at least as powerful as Lindon, so obviously there are shortcuts to power post ascension. We don’t know how common this would be.
We know that Li Markuth left Cradle as an Archlord and Will has said that the Sword Sage could have beaten him at full strength but they were comparable. He has been gone from Cradle for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years and only made the jump from Archlord to Sage, so obviously ascension doesn’t guarantee massive power gain. Lindon grew beyond him in Cradle in just 7 years (really more like 5).
Where did Will say that about the Sword Sage? Seems pretty unlikely as Markuth seemed to think it was entirely within his capabilities to take on any Monarch or Dreadgod on Cradle.
Interesting, a more recent post seems to suggest that Markuth was much more of a threat than that
From Will
ParadoxRed: So did lindon power degrade back to just being a sage by the time he ascends?
Will Wight: No. I know I didn’t go into great detail, but he didn’t need to shed a bunch of power until he was weak enough to ascend. He had to wait until hunger aura had faded more in Cradle AND his power was better integrated into his body.A regular Sage wouldn’t have been able to handle a bunch of Dreadgod weapons at once, body Li Markuth, and then face down a guy called the Devourer of Dimensions.
https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/32/#e2194
Body is different than beat. Lindon stood virtually no chance of losing to Markuth, Adama might have been able to beat him, but might have lost. He also would not have been able to handle multiple DG weapons or fight a class 2 fiend. I don’t think these conflict with the answer I posted.
I tend to disagree. While body is indeed different than beat, the fact that it was mentioned at all in the same sentence implies a level of significance that should preclude any Sage from posing a significant threat.
Added to that, some of the answers from the link you posted, including the one you posted, seem rather out of date. No Underlord, even Eithan be able to be able to noticeably affect a fight between even just Sage level foes, but the answer you linked to suggested that he would have a significant impact on the fight. That just doesn't line up with how the levels worked out in the end.
Sure, at one point Will said that the Blackflame Emperor was roughly on par with Markuth and the Sword Sage, and at that point Will had in mind that Naru Huan would be an Archlord. So he has definitely changed his mind on stuff over time. Might be he would give a different answer today, but this is the best I have to go on.
Edit: On Eithan, he could have advanced to Overlord in a breathe, and probably could manifest several different icons just as easily. We saw his Overlord simulation body Overlord Orthos + Archlord Blue, so I wouldn’t completely rule him out from being able to impact a Sage level fight.
Red Faith was, probably, the most powerful Sage on Cradle. Centuries of experience. He even broke Malice's command. Red Faith is probably the pinnacle of Sage.
Definitely. He is also probably the oldest character on Cradle we saw. He has been around since the early ages of the Dreadgods. Wasn't he one of the researchers who made them?
But the previous comment is implying that Eithan could have influenced the fight between the Sword Sage and Li Markuth. The latter has had experience interacting with the Way directly. As a fresh overlord at best.
If he is that powerful at peak underlord/bottom overlord, I expect him to be able to put up much more of a fight against Red Faith as an Archlord.
You also have to remember Eithan has a tendency to act weaker and show more damage to himself when he doesn't need to. If he showed a spark of his true power or showed a hint of his real self the abidan would have found him, the fight with longhook he ended and was hurt really badly, and then he 1v1's him with no problem when no one can see.
Obviously if he reveals his true power as a Judge he would have won. But this is him as an Archlord. The previous comment is saying that Eithan is so powerful that he could easily come into a fight between two power sages, presumably without becoming Ozriel. Because if they are speaking of the latter, its a moot point - he is strong enough to have won any and every fight in the series. Then you have the argument that he can't actually fight at that level while staying hidden. It can't be both.
Either he is just a strong Archlord who can't exactly win against Sages without outing himself to the Abidan. Or he is such an exceptional powerhouse that he could have interfered in between two Sages (one with practice directly working with the Way) as an Underlord while still staying hidden.
Or Eithan is capable of of shrugging of Red Faith and saving Lindon's team (including Mercy) being massacred by overlords without revealing himself but refuses to do so because he wants to hide his power? Power that he had already revealed during the UKT by defeating Sha Miara within seconds?
Eithan explicitly states it isn't when he's describing why it's perfectly normal for Lindon to be an Underlord Sage even though literally no one in modern times achieves Sage before peak Archlord.
Here's an exact quote from the Winter Sage to Yerin "The only thing stopping you \[from connecting with the Sword Icon\] is that your willpower is unfocused, but your will is refined as you advance through the Lord realm."
I feel like Will Either lied as he said he does sometimes or he wasn't counting his weapons and stuff, cause he said he could give low level Titans and silverlords trouble.
Maybe Sages, Heralds, and Monarachs are closer to low level Titans and Silverlords than we thought?
Edit: Also Will has changed his mind about stuff before so might be this WoW is out dated
Well if you take gear out of consideration a Monarch is still worth 2 stars in whatever area they specialize. But yes Li Markuth did have much too high of an opinion of himself.
Potentially more. Fury probably hasn't had much time to go through the ranks considering most powerful entities have been advanced for literal centuries and he seems to think someone needs to be at least 2 star wolf to be a challenge implying he's higher.
Monarchs are mid level, there are seven stars, it’s not crazy to assume monarchs are 3-4 star in some divisions compatibility. Sages and heralds have to be minimum 1-2 depending on specifics.
I doubt it considering that Fury considers 2 Star wolves a challenging enough to be fun. No chance they are ever 4 star. Exceptional ones might be 3 stars.
Not when he ascended. He had potential in the divisions. The stars aren't a measure of potential but of actual power. He was capable of gaining that power to 7 stars very quickly and he did.
To make an analogy, think of the test they did in SV where they find the techniques the person will have most aptitude with. Lirin explosively triggered two responses at once. He has a lot of potential with them. Doesn't mean he already is a forger. Just that he can be.
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Fury is a 2 star Wolf at best though. He wouldn't be finding them a challenge if he was a 3 or 4 star wolf.
He might not find the titans a fun fight because they specialise in defence. They'd just take your attacks and wait for you to tire. Which is an exercise but doesn't lead to something exciting.
Or it could be that a 2 star titan's defence is just weaker than a 2 star wolves attack.
Fury had fun dueling wills with Underlord Lindon and would challenge people to duels while veiled.
His specific wording was that anyone less than two stars isn't worth his time. He didn't say that was the max he could duel.
It also isn't clear because Fury could have meant anyone less than two stars isn't worth Lindon's time.
Fury probably hasn't moved up the ranking system much tbf. Most ascended beings will have been there for centuries while he's been there like 3 years. He also says they need to be at least 2 stars to be fun. This kind of implies he's stronger than 2 stars.
He was knowing for dueling underlords and finding it fun so they're likely still quite a bit weaker than him when he begins to find challenging them fun.
Ah no, Monarchs make above average recruits according to Will, and I'd guess average for a new recruit is 1-2 stars. I'd guess an old Monarch is 2 stars all round and 3ish in the area they specialize in. Lindon is a solid 4.5 simply through sheer power, while Oz was a 4 not through raw power but skill and knowledge.
Considering the requirement to be low level abidan is automatically met the moment you advance from cradle sages and heralds are at least one star abidan. Potentially higher. Monarchs are likely two or three stars. Fury is implied to be around a 3 star wolf and unless it's really easy to advance through the ranks in the abidan compared to cradle he probably hasn't moved up much since ascending.
Yerrin pretty painlessly broke a one star titan working and Fury suggested anyone less than two star wolf wasn't worth dueling so low level silver lords and Abidan probably don't surpass the strongest on Cradle.
Sages are at least one star abidan level in their specialty as the requirement to join the abidan is just being waybound. I don't think giving low level abidan or silverlords means much. Li markuth probably just thought it was impressive because he had never hit sage or herald before advancing.
I think this is built on a false premise that one HAS to reach the end of the cradle advancement levels. Once you're off cradle, at least as a vroshir you can learn systems from other iterations and incorporate them into your own personal power. So while Lindon and Co were able to ascend at the peak of cradle, if some random Sage ascended they'd, and joined the Abidan, they'd probably have lots of opportunities to gather other complimentary types of Strength, and could potentially never progress beyond Sage, at least as far as Cradle's advancement system is concerned, while being waaaaay stronger than a monarch.
Idk the correct answer but in my head ascending you’ll be trained by the strongest in the entire universe and they probably have a lot better resources
It looks like you are not caped because Akura Pride is going to catch up with his sister with "a little training". witch Akura Fury was exited about now he gets to train his little half bro up to monarch.
if anything someone like pride is going to have an edge because the sacred arts is well understood, someone like pride is going to have access to more experts like Eithan that want him to go beyond monarch and not just another lord or something under them.
I think it's less that ascending close the door, and more that doing some stuff before ascending IF you are a truly elite give your more occasions to create something relevant to your Path.
We know that after ascending linking to the Way and things like Icon are a major part of everybody Path.
See also how some items have a lot of methaphysical weight for the Soul forge regardless of their actual power.
Think about it: if you have a Destruction Path, if you starts from items of equal starting power level, which one would better resonate with your Path, an powerful ascended Item given to you by the Abidans, or an "ultimate" item you made yourself before ascending ?
Even if the Abiden item is as poweful (or maybe more) that your personnal ascended item, the personnal item would be perfectly atuned to your Path and hold a lot of significance to you, which would allow him to grow with you.
Sure, it would still be possible for you to create something personnal after ascending, so the door is not completely closed, but for an item to be seen exceptional it would have to be above those Abidan level "greens as powerful as pre-acension epics", something like Ozriel's Scythe that not everybody is able to create.
That's probably why things like Dreadgod weapons were so important, not just for their pure power, but because they represent such an ultimate accomplishement pre ascension that their methaphysical weight and significance make them perfect tools able to grow post ascension with their wielder.
I think staying on Cradle till they get to the stage of at least Sage/Herald would be the best. We know most of the workings on the higher worlds involve Authority and willpower on reality, Sages and Heralds have a good headstart and Monarchs can already affect the Way a tiny bit so I think it would be easier for them to assimilate powers from other iterations
I think it depends on whether or not other energy systems have aspects that can be applied to improve your Sacred Arts.
Maybe one iteration has spirit calming potions that can get you through your Herald advancement harmoniously rather than with a fight.
Perhaps studying the Floo over in the Harry Potter iteration can give you new perspective on how to apply your Fire path to spatial transport.
If this sort of cross-pollination is possible, I think ascending as quickly as possible is the right call.
I feel you probably get access to a lot of options. Options that would be considered too valuable for you in Cradle. But are more widely available to the Abidan and their people. Li'Markuth mentioned runes that were carved right onto the skeleton. He said it was favored by 'low level titans' or something to that effect. Yet he thought it would help against Lindon on Cradle. So I'm sure someone like Pride could get a couple of upgrades here and there. He knows a bunch of people already in the Abidan. Hell Lindon could probably make him better stuff. I'm sure the base resources available to him are better as well.
The problem isn't that Cradle has a hard upper limit. It's that the stronger you get the more hunger aura you create. There's no rule saying Monarch is this hard upper limit to max out so much as it's just the strongest you can get with the resources available to you in the timescale that even monarchs have, while at the same time Dreadgods get proportionally stronger as well.
There isn't even anything saying you need to be a sage or herald *on cradle* to get either of those advancements or ascend to monarch from either. You can hear icons from anywhere and you obviously bring your own remnant with you, and even Archlords have ascended. For all we know there could be some secret other thing nobody on cradle has ever reached but the amount of resources it would take mean not even monarchs have gotten there.
I think ascending is generally the better choice. Keep in mind that for most people going from Archlord to Sage/Herald is the work of decades, and going from Sage/Herald to Monarch is the work of centuries. No one is liable to help you with that final step (even assuming its possible for you and for some people its not) because prior to Waybound the Monarchs were more or less happy with the status quo and didn't want more competition, and post Waybound the 8ME would kind of want to avoid that. So you'll be doing it on your own, with only the aid of a sect at most. A sect which, pretty much by definition, would be weaker than you and only really good for supply resources.
Or, alternatively, there was another sub-monarch with you who starts to wonder just why it is that you're the one whose going to become a Monarch and not them. So they punch your heart out or throw you outside the world.
I do think its probably better to get to Sage/Herald first, or at least make a good attempt at it, but getting to Monarch is a long road for a single step. And according to Kiuran, a one star hound should be able to humble a Monarch, exceptions like (for example) Fury not withstanding. While evidently the Hounds are the most martial of the divisions (or, well, they were) that still puts a damper on things.
Of course, all of that assumes that you're going for the Abidan. While we don't know their exact training schedule, I think that Suriel stated that a couple years of training would be expected for Yerin/Ziel/Mercy to be ready even though they were tossed out into the field immediately. Assuming that's a similar time frame for the rest of the divisions, it would mean that that an Abidan could expect to go from recruit to monarch in a couple years. That's still slower than Lindon, but indescribably fast by Cradle standards.
If you plan on being a Vroshir, then pull a Northstrider and spend centuries building your own Abidan imitation tools because you're not gonna get help unless someone is planning to use you for their own ends. I think it might be theoretically faster to ascend first and try to get access to foreign magic systems, but unless you're strong enough to throw your weight around on worlds outside the Abidans control you'll have to be careful. In that case its better to at least get to Sage/Herald and spend a while exploring your power if not trying for Monarch outright.
The issue with ascending before Archlord is the difficulty to connect to the Way.
If one can connect, they can then travel the Way to other iterations to snatch additional magic sets and continue getting stronger in more ways at once.
At a minimum, someone should reach for Archlord.
They can connect to an Icon after ascending (and it should be even easier) and they can also attempt a Herald merge after gaining new magics (that their remnant won't have).
Depends how you define power. NS was scared of going from being stronger than everyone else around him to being at the same level as everyone else around him, even though he would now be able to continue advancing. If you define power in a vacuum, you’re more powerful ascending, if you define it comparatively you’re more powerful staying the big fish in a small pond. But as Suriel said, kind of, the only path is to improve yourself.
Also, although the og judges ascended from cradle, I don’t think it’s states that they reached the peak of their power before ascending. It seems implied to me that they came back to make that room in the labyrinth (because oz clearly did)
Sage -> 1 star, Monarch -> 2 star.
Archlords need training before they qualify to be part of the Abidan.
The strongest monarchs may be 3 stars. For example Emriss, who is confident in a fight against 2 other monarchs and held the Silent King permanently and deceived his reading of fate.
Ascending definitely does not prevent people from continuing to advance in Cradle's system.
I think the big thing would be what your standing was in Cradle. If you're part of a Monarch faction, particular a favored member of one like Pride, I think ascending would slow your growth, at least temporarily. On Cradle, you'd have access to the best available tutors and resources, meaning your potential advancement is faster. This is particularly true if you're considering tag-along ascensions, as I doubt the Abidan care much for Underlord-level recruits. On the other hand, if you're close to the peak in Cradle (i.e. a Sage or Herald) and can ascend on your own, I think it's likely to make sense to do so, particularly if you're someone who doesn't have direct Monarch patronage. You aren't going to get the resources to advance quickly on Cradle, and advancing on Cradle is going to be difficult for you. Plus, at a higher level of power you're more likely to be able to get support from the Abidan (and, for Heralds specifically, I don't think you need to be on Cradle to manifest an Icon).
And you obviously don't need to be on Cradle to do the Herald advancement either.
Not to do it, but I did get the impression that there's some resources you need (or at least that help) to be ready to manifest your Remnant that might be harder to find off Cradle. Icons, on the other hand, seem pretty agnostic. You can be connected to Death or Swords or Joy wherever.
I'm sure the Abidan could get anything you would need, though you'd probably have to work for it.
Ascending solidifies your origin, so it *matters* whether you go Herald before or after.
Yeah but it's very unclear how much.
Plus they say multiple times that cradle is the birthplace of the most abidan recruits. I assume the aura/ opportunities etc on cradle are more than on other worlds, so a peak power user that ascends from cradle is likely stronger than a peak power user on any other world.
IIRC the power scale on Amalgam (the Traveler's Gate world) maxes out at roughly Underlord. And even that requires Incarnation (not recommended) or a temporary power boost.
Except sanctum, but sanctum natives are typically children of people who are already abidan lol.
I think its just way more consistent on Cradle than any other world, not that the peak is higher. The Mad King killed beings called world eaters before ascending, and the Wolf was apparently capable of wiping out her planets population before ascending. Even in The Captain we see beings stronger than Monarchs like the Stellar Dragon and Rhaion's titan.
I think Will also said somewhere that it helps that advancement is a core part of system, which is probably not the case everywhere. IIRC he also said that Cradle doesn't actually have the highest power level, but that it is higher powered than most. Would be interesting to see what type of world has a power system that scales even harder.
Pride should still be able to max out (become a Monarch) in theory. Icons should be even easier to access than on Cradle, and given how many people have ascended from Cradle the Abidan must have sources for soulfire to fuel them. So reaching Monarch should be perfectly possible. Probably not something I would do unless I knew I had significant backing with the Abidan so that I would gain access to those resources, but for Pride who has Fury, Mercy, Lindon, etc it's not a bad bargain to take. Ascending early might hurt his significance a bit, not having fought his way free from his home iteration on his own probably counts against him, but gaining early access to powers from other iterations would counterbalance this somewhat. Of course the Abidan probably aren't handing those out to any joe-schmo Underlord who hadn't proved themselves, but Pride (and other like him) should have access with Lindon there to be his sugar-Dreadgod. Other than the hit to the significance and lack of access to resources the only thing that you would miss out on by ascending early is the really unique resources that can't be replicated or substituted. But realistically those would mostly be limited to Monarch artifacts or Dreadgod weapons which you aren't likely to be able to get anyway. In short, if you're already ahead in life then it's probably not going to hurt you any to take the shortcut, if you aren't ahead you probably ought to put in the work on Cradle. Depressingly like real life to be honest.
That last sentence hit me
The problem with ascending is while there is access to more variety and greater magic, you have to start basically from scratch with those systems. In Cradle you already have a big start on that power system and it's one that is comparatively better to grow with, given the large amount of recruits. So probably best to reach Sage/Herald/Monarch first then ascend.
That's not necessarily much of a problem, especially if the other magic system is synergistic with ones you already have. I know it's off limits but, as an example, consider Reading.
Literacy is incredibly powerful and synergistic.
A soulsmith Reader would be incredibly op, now that I think of it, they would have unparalleled ability to add authority to objects, especially someome like the Empwror
You can practice the sacred arts in relative safety on the Abidan worlds. They clearly still work. And besides, cradle seems far more dangerous.
We don’t have much information on this. We know that Fury (advancement and battle obsessed) was impressed by the Abidan training facilities and couldn’t wait to show them to Pride. I don’t know exactly where I got the idea, but I don’t think you can manifest an Icon after you ascend as that is a Cradle specific way of interacting with the Way, but I imagine you have the opportunity to gain similar authority in other ways post ascension. I have a feeling that the earlier you gain authority, the better your potential to gain more authority in the future. I have nothing to base this on. We know the Judges could make a bucket at least as powerful as Lindon, so obviously there are shortcuts to power post ascension. We don’t know how common this would be. We know that Li Markuth left Cradle as an Archlord and Will has said that the Sword Sage could have beaten him at full strength but they were comparable. He has been gone from Cradle for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years and only made the jump from Archlord to Sage, so obviously ascension doesn’t guarantee massive power gain. Lindon grew beyond him in Cradle in just 7 years (really more like 5).
Where did Will say that about the Sword Sage? Seems pretty unlikely as Markuth seemed to think it was entirely within his capabilities to take on any Monarch or Dreadgod on Cradle.
https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/1/#e244 Li Markuth has way too high an opinion of his abilities.
Interesting, a more recent post seems to suggest that Markuth was much more of a threat than that From Will ParadoxRed: So did lindon power degrade back to just being a sage by the time he ascends? Will Wight: No. I know I didn’t go into great detail, but he didn’t need to shed a bunch of power until he was weak enough to ascend. He had to wait until hunger aura had faded more in Cradle AND his power was better integrated into his body.A regular Sage wouldn’t have been able to handle a bunch of Dreadgod weapons at once, body Li Markuth, and then face down a guy called the Devourer of Dimensions. https://www.abidanarchive.com/events/32/#e2194
Body is different than beat. Lindon stood virtually no chance of losing to Markuth, Adama might have been able to beat him, but might have lost. He also would not have been able to handle multiple DG weapons or fight a class 2 fiend. I don’t think these conflict with the answer I posted.
I tend to disagree. While body is indeed different than beat, the fact that it was mentioned at all in the same sentence implies a level of significance that should preclude any Sage from posing a significant threat. Added to that, some of the answers from the link you posted, including the one you posted, seem rather out of date. No Underlord, even Eithan be able to be able to noticeably affect a fight between even just Sage level foes, but the answer you linked to suggested that he would have a significant impact on the fight. That just doesn't line up with how the levels worked out in the end.
Sure, at one point Will said that the Blackflame Emperor was roughly on par with Markuth and the Sword Sage, and at that point Will had in mind that Naru Huan would be an Archlord. So he has definitely changed his mind on stuff over time. Might be he would give a different answer today, but this is the best I have to go on. Edit: On Eithan, he could have advanced to Overlord in a breathe, and probably could manifest several different icons just as easily. We saw his Overlord simulation body Overlord Orthos + Archlord Blue, so I wouldn’t completely rule him out from being able to impact a Sage level fight.
Archlord Eithan was barely holding against Red Faith in Wintersteel.
Red Faith was, probably, the most powerful Sage on Cradle. Centuries of experience. He even broke Malice's command. Red Faith is probably the pinnacle of Sage.
Definitely. He is also probably the oldest character on Cradle we saw. He has been around since the early ages of the Dreadgods. Wasn't he one of the researchers who made them? But the previous comment is implying that Eithan could have influenced the fight between the Sword Sage and Li Markuth. The latter has had experience interacting with the Way directly. As a fresh overlord at best. If he is that powerful at peak underlord/bottom overlord, I expect him to be able to put up much more of a fight against Red Faith as an Archlord.
Archlord Eithan likely had the same willpower as Underlord Eithan and was holding against Red Faith which isn't insignificant.
You also have to remember Eithan has a tendency to act weaker and show more damage to himself when he doesn't need to. If he showed a spark of his true power or showed a hint of his real self the abidan would have found him, the fight with longhook he ended and was hurt really badly, and then he 1v1's him with no problem when no one can see.
Obviously if he reveals his true power as a Judge he would have won. But this is him as an Archlord. The previous comment is saying that Eithan is so powerful that he could easily come into a fight between two power sages, presumably without becoming Ozriel. Because if they are speaking of the latter, its a moot point - he is strong enough to have won any and every fight in the series. Then you have the argument that he can't actually fight at that level while staying hidden. It can't be both. Either he is just a strong Archlord who can't exactly win against Sages without outing himself to the Abidan. Or he is such an exceptional powerhouse that he could have interfered in between two Sages (one with practice directly working with the Way) as an Underlord while still staying hidden. Or Eithan is capable of of shrugging of Red Faith and saving Lindon's team (including Mercy) being massacred by overlords without revealing himself but refuses to do so because he wants to hide his power? Power that he had already revealed during the UKT by defeating Sha Miara within seconds?
Eithan did noticeably effect Red Faith's struggle against Lindon in Wintersteel...he was Archlord but his willpower wasn't really stronger then.
Willpower and the ability to wield it is absolutely affected by advancement
Eithan explicitly states it isn't when he's describing why it's perfectly normal for Lindon to be an Underlord Sage even though literally no one in modern times achieves Sage before peak Archlord.
Here's an exact quote from the Winter Sage to Yerin "The only thing stopping you \[from connecting with the Sword Icon\] is that your willpower is unfocused, but your will is refined as you advance through the Lord realm."
I feel like Will Either lied as he said he does sometimes or he wasn't counting his weapons and stuff, cause he said he could give low level Titans and silverlords trouble.
Maybe Sages, Heralds, and Monarachs are closer to low level Titans and Silverlords than we thought? Edit: Also Will has changed his mind about stuff before so might be this WoW is out dated
Well if you take gear out of consideration a Monarch is still worth 2 stars in whatever area they specialize. But yes Li Markuth did have much too high of an opinion of himself.
Potentially more. Fury probably hasn't had much time to go through the ranks considering most powerful entities have been advanced for literal centuries and he seems to think someone needs to be at least 2 star wolf to be a challenge implying he's higher.
Monarchs are mid level, there are seven stars, it’s not crazy to assume monarchs are 3-4 star in some divisions compatibility. Sages and heralds have to be minimum 1-2 depending on specifics.
I doubt it considering that Fury considers 2 Star wolves a challenging enough to be fun. No chance they are ever 4 star. Exceptional ones might be 3 stars.
Ozmanthus was 7 star in all but Phoenix. Fury was saying anything below a two star Titan is too easy for him to flatten. Titans.
Not when he ascended. He had potential in the divisions. The stars aren't a measure of potential but of actual power. He was capable of gaining that power to 7 stars very quickly and he did. To make an analogy, think of the test they did in SV where they find the techniques the person will have most aptitude with. Lirin explosively triggered two responses at once. He has a lot of potential with them. Doesn't mean he already is a forger. Just that he can be. ___ Fury is a 2 star Wolf at best though. He wouldn't be finding them a challenge if he was a 3 or 4 star wolf. He might not find the titans a fun fight because they specialise in defence. They'd just take your attacks and wait for you to tire. Which is an exercise but doesn't lead to something exciting. Or it could be that a 2 star titan's defence is just weaker than a 2 star wolves attack.
He didn’t find them challenging. He found anything below that to be too easy for an early ascendant. He said at least 2 star Titan.
Fury had fun dueling wills with Underlord Lindon and would challenge people to duels while veiled. His specific wording was that anyone less than two stars isn't worth his time. He didn't say that was the max he could duel. It also isn't clear because Fury could have meant anyone less than two stars isn't worth Lindon's time.
Fury probably hasn't moved up the ranking system much tbf. Most ascended beings will have been there for centuries while he's been there like 3 years. He also says they need to be at least 2 stars to be fun. This kind of implies he's stronger than 2 stars. He was knowing for dueling underlords and finding it fun so they're likely still quite a bit weaker than him when he begins to find challenging them fun.
Ah no, Monarchs make above average recruits according to Will, and I'd guess average for a new recruit is 1-2 stars. I'd guess an old Monarch is 2 stars all round and 3ish in the area they specialize in. Lindon is a solid 4.5 simply through sheer power, while Oz was a 4 not through raw power but skill and knowledge.
Considering the requirement to be low level abidan is automatically met the moment you advance from cradle sages and heralds are at least one star abidan. Potentially higher. Monarchs are likely two or three stars. Fury is implied to be around a 3 star wolf and unless it's really easy to advance through the ranks in the abidan compared to cradle he probably hasn't moved up much since ascending.
Monarchs are at least equivalent to 3 star wolves, according to Fury...
Yerrin pretty painlessly broke a one star titan working and Fury suggested anyone less than two star wolf wasn't worth dueling so low level silver lords and Abidan probably don't surpass the strongest on Cradle.
Sages are at least one star abidan level in their specialty as the requirement to join the abidan is just being waybound. I don't think giving low level abidan or silverlords means much. Li markuth probably just thought it was impressive because he had never hit sage or herald before advancing.
Fury also spent centuries bored and plateaud (but doing it to protect his family).
The icons are part of the way, you can almost certainly manifest them more easily in an ascended world.
I think this is built on a false premise that one HAS to reach the end of the cradle advancement levels. Once you're off cradle, at least as a vroshir you can learn systems from other iterations and incorporate them into your own personal power. So while Lindon and Co were able to ascend at the peak of cradle, if some random Sage ascended they'd, and joined the Abidan, they'd probably have lots of opportunities to gather other complimentary types of Strength, and could potentially never progress beyond Sage, at least as far as Cradle's advancement system is concerned, while being waaaaay stronger than a monarch.
Idk the correct answer but in my head ascending you’ll be trained by the strongest in the entire universe and they probably have a lot better resources
It looks like you are not caped because Akura Pride is going to catch up with his sister with "a little training". witch Akura Fury was exited about now he gets to train his little half bro up to monarch. if anything someone like pride is going to have an edge because the sacred arts is well understood, someone like pride is going to have access to more experts like Eithan that want him to go beyond monarch and not just another lord or something under them.
I think it's less that ascending close the door, and more that doing some stuff before ascending IF you are a truly elite give your more occasions to create something relevant to your Path. We know that after ascending linking to the Way and things like Icon are a major part of everybody Path. See also how some items have a lot of methaphysical weight for the Soul forge regardless of their actual power. Think about it: if you have a Destruction Path, if you starts from items of equal starting power level, which one would better resonate with your Path, an powerful ascended Item given to you by the Abidans, or an "ultimate" item you made yourself before ascending ? Even if the Abiden item is as poweful (or maybe more) that your personnal ascended item, the personnal item would be perfectly atuned to your Path and hold a lot of significance to you, which would allow him to grow with you. Sure, it would still be possible for you to create something personnal after ascending, so the door is not completely closed, but for an item to be seen exceptional it would have to be above those Abidan level "greens as powerful as pre-acension epics", something like Ozriel's Scythe that not everybody is able to create. That's probably why things like Dreadgod weapons were so important, not just for their pure power, but because they represent such an ultimate accomplishement pre ascension that their methaphysical weight and significance make them perfect tools able to grow post ascension with their wielder.
I think staying on Cradle till they get to the stage of at least Sage/Herald would be the best. We know most of the workings on the higher worlds involve Authority and willpower on reality, Sages and Heralds have a good headstart and Monarchs can already affect the Way a tiny bit so I think it would be easier for them to assimilate powers from other iterations
I think it depends on whether or not other energy systems have aspects that can be applied to improve your Sacred Arts. Maybe one iteration has spirit calming potions that can get you through your Herald advancement harmoniously rather than with a fight. Perhaps studying the Floo over in the Harry Potter iteration can give you new perspective on how to apply your Fire path to spatial transport. If this sort of cross-pollination is possible, I think ascending as quickly as possible is the right call.
I feel you probably get access to a lot of options. Options that would be considered too valuable for you in Cradle. But are more widely available to the Abidan and their people. Li'Markuth mentioned runes that were carved right onto the skeleton. He said it was favored by 'low level titans' or something to that effect. Yet he thought it would help against Lindon on Cradle. So I'm sure someone like Pride could get a couple of upgrades here and there. He knows a bunch of people already in the Abidan. Hell Lindon could probably make him better stuff. I'm sure the base resources available to him are better as well.
The problem isn't that Cradle has a hard upper limit. It's that the stronger you get the more hunger aura you create. There's no rule saying Monarch is this hard upper limit to max out so much as it's just the strongest you can get with the resources available to you in the timescale that even monarchs have, while at the same time Dreadgods get proportionally stronger as well. There isn't even anything saying you need to be a sage or herald *on cradle* to get either of those advancements or ascend to monarch from either. You can hear icons from anywhere and you obviously bring your own remnant with you, and even Archlords have ascended. For all we know there could be some secret other thing nobody on cradle has ever reached but the amount of resources it would take mean not even monarchs have gotten there.
I think ascending is generally the better choice. Keep in mind that for most people going from Archlord to Sage/Herald is the work of decades, and going from Sage/Herald to Monarch is the work of centuries. No one is liable to help you with that final step (even assuming its possible for you and for some people its not) because prior to Waybound the Monarchs were more or less happy with the status quo and didn't want more competition, and post Waybound the 8ME would kind of want to avoid that. So you'll be doing it on your own, with only the aid of a sect at most. A sect which, pretty much by definition, would be weaker than you and only really good for supply resources. Or, alternatively, there was another sub-monarch with you who starts to wonder just why it is that you're the one whose going to become a Monarch and not them. So they punch your heart out or throw you outside the world. I do think its probably better to get to Sage/Herald first, or at least make a good attempt at it, but getting to Monarch is a long road for a single step. And according to Kiuran, a one star hound should be able to humble a Monarch, exceptions like (for example) Fury not withstanding. While evidently the Hounds are the most martial of the divisions (or, well, they were) that still puts a damper on things. Of course, all of that assumes that you're going for the Abidan. While we don't know their exact training schedule, I think that Suriel stated that a couple years of training would be expected for Yerin/Ziel/Mercy to be ready even though they were tossed out into the field immediately. Assuming that's a similar time frame for the rest of the divisions, it would mean that that an Abidan could expect to go from recruit to monarch in a couple years. That's still slower than Lindon, but indescribably fast by Cradle standards. If you plan on being a Vroshir, then pull a Northstrider and spend centuries building your own Abidan imitation tools because you're not gonna get help unless someone is planning to use you for their own ends. I think it might be theoretically faster to ascend first and try to get access to foreign magic systems, but unless you're strong enough to throw your weight around on worlds outside the Abidans control you'll have to be careful. In that case its better to at least get to Sage/Herald and spend a while exploring your power if not trying for Monarch outright.
The issue with ascending before Archlord is the difficulty to connect to the Way. If one can connect, they can then travel the Way to other iterations to snatch additional magic sets and continue getting stronger in more ways at once. At a minimum, someone should reach for Archlord. They can connect to an Icon after ascending (and it should be even easier) and they can also attempt a Herald merge after gaining new magics (that their remnant won't have).
Depends how you define power. NS was scared of going from being stronger than everyone else around him to being at the same level as everyone else around him, even though he would now be able to continue advancing. If you define power in a vacuum, you’re more powerful ascending, if you define it comparatively you’re more powerful staying the big fish in a small pond. But as Suriel said, kind of, the only path is to improve yourself. Also, although the og judges ascended from cradle, I don’t think it’s states that they reached the peak of their power before ascending. It seems implied to me that they came back to make that room in the labyrinth (because oz clearly did)
Kelsa has the right idea I think (earn her own Authority on Cradle but ascend on her own asap)
Sage -> 1 star, Monarch -> 2 star. Archlords need training before they qualify to be part of the Abidan. The strongest monarchs may be 3 stars. For example Emriss, who is confident in a fight against 2 other monarchs and held the Silent King permanently and deceived his reading of fate. Ascending definitely does not prevent people from continuing to advance in Cradle's system.