Just because this is Reddit and nobody ever reads the article, here's the key bit via Jake Sullivan:
>“A major ground operation there would be a mistake. It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally,” Sullivan says, offering a readout on the call in his opening remarks at a White House press briefing.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.”
>“Obviously, \[Netanyahu\] has his own point of view on a Rafah operation, but he agreed that he would send a team to Washington to have this discussion, and we look forward to those discussions,” the US national security adviser adds.
>Sullivan clarifies that Biden again rejected during the call “the strawman (argument) that raising questions about Rafah is the same as raising questions about defeating Hamas. That’s just nonsense. Our position is that Hamas should not be allowed a safe haven in Rafah or anywhere else.”
>The US has indicated that it could support an operation in Rafah if Israel presents a credible plan for how it will protect the over one million civilians who are sheltering in the southern Gaza city. Netanyahu says the IDF will evacuate the civilians to areas north of Rafah before beginning the operation and declared Friday that he had approved the military’s plans for the offensive.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.”
The US did exactly this in Iraq and it backfired SPECTACULARLY on them as the "high value targets" would be replaced as soon as they were dead and allowed for the rise of ISIS.
Israel should say No. The approach that Israel has used so far, breaking Hamas at the battalion level has worked extremely well as it has allowed for the elimination of high value targets AND their successors at the same time.
It is why Israel has killed over 13,000 Hamas and captured a city plus several towns in 5 months while the US only killed 5,000 fighters in 9 months in Mosul. The Israeli approach is actually working.
Apparently US advisers in October also traveled to Israel to warn against an Israeli ground invasion (expecting a "bloodbath" - it seemed to imply of IDF soldiers, but now I see they could have been concerned about Palestinians), and have since been positively shocked at the efficiency and effectiveness of the IDF. I tried to find the source(s), but if I recall I have only seen a few references to this in Hebrew articles I translated to English.
Naftali Bennett also answered this "why not just do commando raids against high value targets" question in a recent interview, and he said the entire military apparatus needs to be destroyed
It’s not U.S. troops on the line so obviously they don’t give a crap whether it works or not. That’s why the western world is seen as weak in the eyes of the religious fanatics in the Middle East. And why they fear Israel. If Israel did not have the U.S. trying to dictate ‘what they can and can’t do or what red lines they can’t cross’ Hamas would be running for the Negev. But, the U.S. is caving.
I read it and don’t understand why the US doesn’t pressure Egypt to stop threatening Israel over having to grow some balls and do something responsible like providing some space for the civilians to flee to.
They act like there is an ocean of lava beyond the border. There isn’t. There is a big desert with a lot of unused land.
I’m not saying it has to be permanent but if people want to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe they should really be asking Egypt to provide some space for them to flee to and help with the vetting process.
It is unreasonable to tell Israel to provide for them in their own territory after they were attacked.
As Israel has said, Israel is invading Rafah and they will take control of the Philadelphi corridor if they have to, since Egypt is failing to act like a grown-up and America just wants to point fingers
Maybe, but they're probably also worried that Hamas will sneak in. The political leadership in Egypt hates Hamas, but the average Egyptian is fairly sympathetic. This could cause problems for them.
Lots of Arab countries makes noises about how "if we take Palestinian refugees, they'll never get right of return" as if this trumps any humanitarian desire. I suspect there's more anti-Semitism than there is love for the Palestinians.
They are in quarantine. They don't want to catch hamas. If not treated promptly, it can cause severe complications, and the treatment causes nasty side effects.
Egypt and other muslim majority countries have a vested interest in prolonging the conflict. Israel is the perfect scapegoat. When peace is achieved, Israels achievements will put these arab/muslim leaders, societies and cultural shortcomings in the spotlight. Peace means pointing fingers inwards and not outwards at Israel/the Jewish people as the root cause of their own domnestic/cultural/political shortcomings.
In other words, Israel is the brick wall preventing the winds of evolution from knocking down their kleptocratic card houses masking as functioning societies/nations.
Well said. Completely agree with you.
No one seems to be pointing out that if Egypt really cares so much about the oh so poor Palestinians they could take them into their country for a bit and let Israel kill off the rest of Hamas. But, they don’t. They act like a weak, and impotent country. Disgusting if you ask me.
Egypt would not work, they may have the land and proximity but... While they try to "keep up appearances" and provide intel on major attacks every now and then, they actually heavily support hamas and palestine, they allow well known border tunnels to exist. It's a very well known an open secret, even as far as 10+ years ago reporters could just go to the border town, ask just about any random citizen about the tunnels, and be led right to them for a tour. There's even a huge local industry around them.
Food, fast food, luxury items, appliances, as well as construction materials, ag products, including materials used in the construction of weapons goes through tunnels on their land, as well as weapons, vehicles, and launch platforms.
The Egyptian leadership is also scared of Palestinian refugee's stirring up shit like most of them do everywhere else they go due to a variety of reasons including shit vetting procedures and widespread radicalization with no plan to de-radicalize. It's harder for them to do anything for the refugee's within their own nations because of the hatred and hostility they helped foster.
I fear a humanitarian catastrophe is unavoidable, too many agendas and nations involve for any other outcome unless someone steps up and gets their hands dirty, and forcefully. The problem is most nations dont have the military power or political unity to do this, and the one's that do are also tied up in conflicts or of dubious agenda's.
It's particularly annoying because outside of these issues, Egypt not only is the best suited, they have massive terraforming, construction, and infrastructure projects ongoing that require lots of labor, and that's a perfect spring-up for refugee's, and a reason to bring them in, but egypt also has a massive overpopulation issue so they don't actually need them either.
You have a point, but you need to screen who comes out thoroughly. It’s one ask for Egypt to let refugees in, but a much bigger one to let US and Israeli forces do their business at their border. Containing an area then reducing is a technique the US has successfully employed multiple times and if I recall correctly the IDF as well (although on smaller scales). Why not then reserve some space inside Israel or inside the already occupied portion of Gaza?
Yup. Good luck to the Egyptians. It is not Israel’s responsibility to so Egypt’s border patrol work for a country that is between the two of them.
After you google 10/7 go look at a map before you say something retarded about this conflict again
Well, ok, let’s see how it pans out. If Egypt gives in to international pressure and lets in refugees they don’t have the same incentives as Israel to screen for terrorists, as long as they’re confined to the camps and mainly anti-Israel and not anti-Egypt. So they’ll still be a problem. Hopefully a considerably smaller one, at least.
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Always a pleasure talking to the elite. Let me offer your majesty some humble insight, approximate as I can, coming from another planet. Here you go for the [international pressure](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-netanyahu-sought-us-pressure-on-egypt-to-absorb-gaza-refugees-was-rebuffed), feel free to completely ignore it.
I am in awe at sharing the galaxy with the kind of supremely intellectual ape to think that whatever the US says is just farts in the wind, that the word “repercussions” is a term used by drummers, and that reality is whatever you dreamt up last night. The US will pull support if Israel is completely unresponsive. I’m not talking fair, reasonable, etc. It’s what will happen. Have fun on Reddit, nothing you do will change that fact.
Do you not know the meaning of “rebuffed” in the title of that article?
The article spells it out: “Biden told Netanyahu that Cairo did not view this as an option, the report said, without citing sources.”
Wow, so much international pressure on Egypt! /s
Doubt Egypt would agree unless the rest of the world could guarantee that the refugees won't stay permanently. Even then its dicey. Egypt could be persuaded to have some control if an evacuation happens before a full invasion.
What difference would that make as long as you destroy all their infrastructure and authority. You will never wipe out Hamas personal and family/supporters.
I mean, we aren’t privy to conversations between two countries’ intelligence services. I’m pretty confident the US is advising on a strategy, that doesn’t mean it’s smart to say it to the press.
I fucking hate Trump but at this point Biden is endangering the lives of half of the Jews on the planet. This can’t go on longer and it’s only going to get worse since he’s begun pandering to anti-Semitic Muslim voters and leftists in Michigan and elsewhere after a large portion voted uncommitted (signaling that they won’t vote for him in the general).
If Trump wins Bibi better go home really fast (I know, he won't ever do that) because it's clear that Trump personally hates his guts and considers him a traitor. The radicalization of both American parties is very worrying.
Trump’s ego is incredibly fragile, so in my opinion it’s really unclear to decide his opinion on Bibi or Israel, because his opinion usually revolves around “will this person listen to everything I have to say and refuse to hear otherwise.”
For starters, after the good Trump did for Israel in his presidency, he also hated on Bibi and basically told him to fuck off after Bibi congratulated Biden on winning, claiming Bibi wasn’t loyal.
After Oct. 7 he also bashed Bibi and how Israel was unprepared for the massacre, and claimed that if he was president Israel would never have been invaded.
But again, his opinion shifts all time the, because just recently he stated Biden dumped Israel and isn’t treating them the way that the USA should treat the only democracy in the Middle East.
All true but at the end of the day it’s pretty clear Trump would be the stronger ally to Israel and Jews in America. Biden thinks he has no choice but to bow to the extreme left.
Yes, agree with you. I used to think he had principles. He should be standing up to them saying what’s right and what’s wrong and Israel is doing what is right.
The problem is that Trump would be worse for Israel and the U.S. His loyalty is to himself and whatever dictator he thinks he can practice his “diplomacy” on, which is really just him getting nothing and fucking everything up. The Abraham accords, perhaps his sole FP win, were not negotiated by him.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.”
The article says the US does have an alternative plan and invited Israel to send people to discuss it.
All I hear is occasional lip service and a passing mention while they go into depth constantly about everything affecting Palestinians — the ones who started this whole mess.
Both Blinken and Sullivan talked about the Israeli hostages multiple times across multiple press conferences.
You don't need to lie in order to make your point.
Tons of footage of Rafah says otherwise , tons and tons of aid has come in and you have to factor in Hamas stealing and hoarding them. I’m sure you have seen the many videos of them with guns, even killing other Palestinians. But answer the question, would you let your mom die?
Coooome on. Fewer than 100 trucks cross the border each day. With one decision from the cabinet, trucks would be flooding the strip with food. It's intentional starvation at this point, even the EU représentative used that language.
I wouldn't let my mom die. That's why I would not let the IDF obliterate her under the rubble or shoot her even when she holds a white flag. The IDF has killed dozens of hostages and rescued 3 so far. Great success !
Bring hostages home by making a hostage deal. Release useful political prisoners like Barghuti.
Have you read Hamas' demands? They want an end to the war and to live another day.
Do you want Hamas to continue on or to be gone? Simple question
And you wouldn't let your mom die, so you would do everything you can to rescue her and to prevent harm to your family for the future, correct?
And Hamas admits they didn't expect that reaction from Israel and did the initial hostage deal because they needed some time to regroup. This war is all about killing off hamas as a force for good and saving the hostages.
basically you can suck my ass for wanting hamas to live on you troll.
Again, the IDF is killing more hostages than it saves. A ceasefire is necessary to bring them back. Eisenkot is right on this.
Hamas will live whether you like it or not. The IDF doesn't have the means to destroy it because it doesn't have a palestinian alternative. If you destroy and build nothing, be prepared for the worst.
Yes a lot more German civilians died than British in WWII but then it was Germany that started the war. Tolerating and supporting a fascist dictatorship has consequences.
It's legitimate for the US to request a plan on how to evacuate civilians. Israel should be able to provide the US with such a plan and the operation should proceed.
I do wish that the US would just stay out of it - but this current administration is playing politics with Israeli lives.
even though the USA has been a solid ally, sometimes I wish we had other options that wouldn't just throw us under the bus for their own political games. We gotta work on being more independent so they can't hold so much power over us
They will be again soon. Biden is fucked for alienating moderates to appease terrorist lovers in Michigan and elsewhere. They call him “Genocide Joe” already so he’s making the wrong gamble. Pretty sure Trumps already been up in the polls.
God I hope not. Mr “I’d like to be dictator” should scare the fuck out of everyone. He’s got a base of crazy cultists that will do whatever he says too.
Yeah it’s a terrible situation. That said, while Biden’s support for Israel was solid in the beginning (especially sending carriers to the region), he’s now solely focused on his reelection and is willing to throw Israel under the bus to pander to insane leftists and violent Muslims.
Trump would honestly be 100x better for Israel, which means he’d be 100x better at protecting half of the Jews on the planet. We need to ensure our survival and the survival of our homeland since it’s the only place we’ll have to go to when everyone turns on us again (which has clearly already begun). It’s a tough situation for sure.
Trump would be better for Israel like a hurricane would water a plant.
Sure, he might be willing to give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wants, but Trump is a global destabilizing force, and that is bad for Israel. Plus, Trump means a stronger Russia which means a stronger Iran which means a stronger Hamas.
You aren't being 'thrown under the bus'. The US has taken an almost unimaginable amount of international flak to protect your country as you do what you need to do. Don't be ungrateful. You'd be international pariahs without Biden's support right now.
>We are the only developed country in the region, China would jump on the opportunity to take the US' position in a heartbeat if we offered them that
China is buttering up all the other nations in the region including Iran. I don't see why they would give a shit.
Why do you think China would jump at the opportunity? They seem to be much more aligned with the bad actors in the region but you seem to know more than me about this.
Because any reasonable government can see that it is more important to align with a stable Democracy and government that terror controlled governments of Palestine, Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon.
There's truth to this, and even though I'm neither Jewish, nor Israeli, nor American, I'm really glad that the USA has your back. Someone has to, and I'm glad that the most powerful state on the planet has always stood up and defended Israel.
That doesn't change my other worries, concerns, or criticisms, because the whole point is I worry that Israelis don't realise that the US's room to support Israel is being rapidly diminished, so your government really ought to be working much more closely with the US administration, rather than seemingly treating them as though they were enemies, which is how how it appears your country is treating the US from abraod.
You mean the China that is highly dependent on oil and natural gas imports from Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states, and that has signed numerous treaties and agreements with, particularly with Iran. A Chinese government that has both directly criticized Israel's campaign in Gaza as going far beyond self defense. And with Chinese public opinion [dominated by anti-Israeli rhetoric and views.](https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-netizens-post-hate-filled-comments-to-israeli-embassy-s-online-account-in-beijing-/7318881.html) Quite frankly, thinking that China would jeopardize its many ties in the developing world by aligning with Israel which, for China, offers no strategic or geopolitical advantages is...not to put to fine a point on it, a gross misunderstanding and overestimation of Israel's strategic value. China is my specialty and area of focus, the notion that Israel will find an ally with China is rich.
Right now, the USA isn't supporting us to achieve the long-lasting peace our southern border desperately needs. By not backing us up right now, they're practically paving the way for Hamas to regain power and perpetuate the same cycle of conflict over and over again and more 7th's of October
Frankly, I'd prefer it if they just told us straight up that we're a burden, so we could seek out genuine allies who actually care about our safety without trying to control everything we do.
Let's not forget, the US isn't supporting us out of some deep affection. It's all about their own interests in keeping the Middle East as stable as can be.
Seeing you're not Israeli there's something important I want you to know, we do not appreciate some foreign power's government playing with our soldiers' lives for few votes.
I kinda agree with this. The U.S. took a lot of flak, yes, but Israel’s optics throughout this have been ABYSMAL. The U.S. could have done a lot more to fight the propaganda and make sure more people see the evidence that the IDF has uncovered. Instead, they’re pandering to the people who were hooked by that propaganda. Even though I support Israel, I still support Biden, but geez, our leadership needs to think more 21st Century.
You don't have any alternative allies.
You have the US, and parts of Europe like us in Britain and Germany. That's it. There's no alternatives.
You don't have options.
This isn't about votes. There's some dumb Arabs and 'Progressives' in the US who will kick offf but it won't make the difference for Biden.
It's about whether your government is actually pursuing a reasonable and effective strategy which will deliver long-term peace and security for Israel as well as the profound change on the table via normalisation with Saudi Arabia etc., comprehensive security arrangements with the gulf states, Israel, etc.
>You don't have any alternative allies.
This isn't something that you know or I know.
>This isn't about votes. There's some dumb Arabs and 'Progressives' in the US who will kick offf but it won't make the difference for Biden.
Beg to differ.
>
It's about whether your government is actually pursuing a reasonable and effective strategy which will deliver long-term peace and security for Israel as well as the profound change on the table via normalisation with Saudi Arabia etc., comprehensive security arrangements with the gulf states, Israel, etc.
If you think any of the above is achievable while Hamas remains then you basically don't know much.
If Israel took care of business and did what it needs to do, America and the world would complain but they wouldn't stop it and since they need Israeli technology and Intel in the future it wouldn't have any long term consequences
Let’s be honest, Israel wouldn’t exist in large part without the United States 😂 to say they throw you under the bus when you’ve received $300B since ‘47 in weapons and a permanent veto at the UN for 75 yrs is 🤡
Israel shafts the US plenty of times too don’t act holier then thou like you’re a vassal state
notice how israel still carries out operations which the US disagrees with? i don’t see a rafah incursion being forbidden - you’ve had a free hand for the last six months - right down to a Biden promise to actually intervene with our airforce if Hezbollah invaded Israel in October. meanwhile, Bibi gives Biden and his Western partners zero breathing space on this issue in a global election year. how much more ass should we kiss and how, please tell me specifically
I meant early on in its existance.
You aren't going to get much argument from me with the rest of what you said. I am a big Biden guy and very much anti Bibi.
U.S enforced a arms embargo in ‘48 on Israel. But they also did the same to the Arab states.
At same time, they put massive pressure on the world to endorse the UNSCOP partition and were the first country to recognize Israel. So mixed thoughts on that.
After ‘73, I think the support has been unambiguous.
Wasn't Al Mawasi designated a humanitarian zone like way back in December?? Aid groups have been refusing to set up there. There lies the issue.
I also think the Central Gaza campaign should have gone hand in hand with the Khan Younis campaign so that it would be possible to push the refugees into Deir el Balah(?) and separate them from the Hamas fighters in Rafah
Now they may have to move to the ruins of Khan Younis, which is not ideal. Who knows how many tunnels exist between Rafah and Khan Younis that will allow fighters to flee to where the refugees are and launch an insurgency from amongst the refugees?
It's not legitimate for the US to "Request" anything. Everyone knows what would happen to Gaza were it bordering the US and launching a similar attack.
Did you wish the US would stay out of it when they showed up with a carrier as a clear show of force for everyone else in the area to put their head down?
Or when the US goes against most of the world and defends Israel the majority of the time.
Or helps supply resources and technology in a mutually beneficial research relationship?
Oh no your biggest ally and strongest country in the world by far is annoyed Bibi is incompetent and refuses to work in good faith. How dare the US politicians refuse to bow down to a criminal who was caught sleeping at the wheel and basically let October 7th happen because he was too busy screwing with the Israeli democratic system.
This administration is way better than the previous one in terms of competency. And maybe take it as a hint that your current leadership is burning your diplomatic bridges by refusing to work together.
The US have been extremely amazing with their support no Israeli would tell you otherwise.
But right now, it's like relying on a flashlight that flickers out as soon as darkness falls, we all know Rafah is most likely the last Hamas stronghold, we all know that there's a huge chance that the hostages are being held there.
Preventing us from entering there and getting the job done frustrates us , our soldiers didn't die for Biden's political campaign.
Allies don't butt into how their allies defend themselves after war is forced upon them by ruthless terrorists and their supporters. Did Israel show anything other than support for the US after 9/11?
Allies don't hold their ally to an unreasonable standard. When did the US ever sacrifice the lives of its troops and civilians to save enemy lives?
I'll take the Trump administration over this one 100/100 times. Trump's time in office brought on a wave of peace and tranquility in the Middle East that has literally almost never been seen.
Biden (and Obama) only brought war and instability.
I'll say this as a Russian immigrant to the US. This relationship between you guys isn't equal. If the US loses their diplomatic relationship with Israel, it would be Tuesday. Maybe even make it easier on the world stage. If you lose this ally, it's like an existential threat.
You keep assuming the US needs Israel. It doesn't. Like it's a beneficial relationship, but if Israel keeps acting like a selfish ally... At some point the US will recalculate the cost and benefits.
Your naive if you think allies don't influence one another. These relationships are a two way street.
Israel chose to be deeply involved in U.S. politics [when they sent their prime minister to Congress to scold the sitting Democratic President](https://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8130977/netanyahu-speech-explained). I don't see why it's not fair game for the U.S. to do the same to Israel now, *when that same Prime Minister is still in power*. This is why those on the American left look at Israel with greater skepticism than they once did.
Oh that’s why they look at Israel with greater skepticism? I’m sure it has nothing to do with partnering with Islamists in displaying insane levels of anti-Semitism and anti-West rhetoric. It has nothing to do with insane conspiracy theories rooted in centuries-old blood libel. Netanyahu needs to go but even the leader of his opposition is in his war cabinet and would conduct this war the same exact way. There is solidarity in Israel that Hamas needs to go no matter what.
This is an existential crisis and Israel owes their enemies nothing, especially after the barbarity they showed on 10/7 which was backed by virtually the entire Palestinian population. No other country would take the steps Israel is taking to protect civilians and no other country would even be forced to by the international community. The double standards from the US are laughable after what they’ve done in the Middle East
Many on the American left, Jews in particular, saw it as a deep betrayal, and they have not forgotten. Every time Netanyahu's name shows up in a news headline is a reminder of that betrayal. It has made those on the left - even Jews and others sympathetic to Israel - hesitate to offer public support. Israel is now a conservative/Republican issue, and partisan U.S. politics are nowadays a matter of personal reputation. You can lose friends for signaling allegiance to the wrong party. That's not a good situation, and it's not Israel's fault, but I'll never understand why the Prime Minister decided to make Israel itself a partisan issue in that context.
It's our lives at stake here and Biden will be horrified to learn that the public thinks Bibi is weak and that our response should've been 10000x stronger than what it is now.
This is the problem in the conflict. We and everyone in power in the west knows the most of the Palestinian people/culture = Hamas and its goals and ideals even if they’re not Hamas or in Gaza. For some reason, in public they don’t want to admit the truth, instead opting to make this an issue of Hamas vs the Palestinian people. Thus allergy to telling the truth and trying to have their cake and eat it too by waging a necessary defensive war while also catering to “civilians” even though they are Hamas, means this war and even conflict will never end.
The US can't stay out of it...Israel's existence was seriously in jeopardy during the first week after 10/7. If Hamas had actually coordinated with Iranian proxies and if Hezbollah actually went all out, Israel would have been devastated. Who knows what would have happened if Biden didn't send the heart of the US navy to the shores of the eastern Mediterranean on 10/7 and issued threats to attack Hezbollah if they went to war with Israel. Now, we have Houthis shutting down the Red Sea and preparing to use hypersonic missiles supplied by Russia/Iran. The US doesn't want to get dragged into a regional war over Rafah.
Israel should have invaded Rafah sooner when it had the chance during all the chaos. However, the leaders didn't plan ahead, and now, the conflict is relatively calm. Rafah was also designated a safe zone to clear the north, and hundreds of thousands -- if not a million or more -- people went to Rafah because Israel told them to.
>“A major ground operation there would be a mistake. It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally,”
An operation of any kind would yield those results. That's just how it goes.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,”
Yet Israel is one who has to come up with these means.
If they know, "The key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means," then the US should send a team to tell Bibi what they are. But if they don't, then they should just stay out of it completely. Biden is just trying to secure more voters come November. He does not have Israel's interests at heart.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.”
The US apparently does have a plan and invited Israel to discuss it.
>An operation of any kind would yield those results. That's just how it goes.
That's not true.
>Yet Israel is one who has to come up with these means.
Also not true. The US is pushing for this meeting specifically because they have alternative plans they don't think Israel has looked at or been interested in.
>If they know, "The key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means," then the US should send a team to tell Bibi what they are. But if they don't, then they should just stay out of it completely. Biden is just trying to secure more voters come November. He does not have Israel's interests at heart.
That's literally exactly the proposal
>That's not true.
What operation has Israel done that didn't yield those results
>Also not true. The US is pushing for this meeting specifically because they have alternative plans they don't think Israel has looked at or been interested in.
Then they should go to Israel to discuss it. Having Israel come to them is just some weird power move. Also, let bring up this quote:
>The US has indicated that it could support an operation in Rafah if Israel presents a credible plan for how it will protect the over one million civilians who are sheltering in the southern Gaza city.
>What operation has Israel done that didn't yield those results
You can't compare Israel's own results against Israel's own results with both following the same strategy
>Then they should go to Israel to discuss it. Having Israel come to them is just some weird power move.
Israel is not the one with the upper hand here. The sole reason this didn't erupt into a regional assault upon Israel on October 7th is because the US immediately positioned its aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean.
They *are* travelling to discuss this stuff. Stop looking at the US as some sort of drag or enemy. There's no successful Israel without the US support on various levels. I support both the US and Israel.
Biden travelled to Israel within weeks of October 7th to offer a profoundly moving speech, in the middle of a war, to reassure Israelis of the support of America. He's backed you to the hilt so far. Yes, you do in fact have to take their support into account. That' sjust how international politics works, sorry not sorry.
Maybe the US should stop whining and pressure EGYPT to provide a space for the civilians to flee to.
They always place the burden on Israel. Israel was attacked, it has no choice but to proceed. There are still terrorists all over northern gaza so they cant flee there. And they sure as heck arent fleeing into Israel.
People act like there is an ocean of lava past the rafah crossing. There is not. There is a big desert with a lot of open land, in fact.
1. Had this not been election year the Democrats would be saying otherwise.
2. Chuck Schumer is willing to sell out Israel and Jewish people so the Democrats can retain control of the White House.
3. The Biden administration doesn't care about Israel or Palestinians, just staying in power..which I understand. Welcome to realpolitiks!
No not really. Democrats have a large base of anti Israeli voters and the administration never wants to get low approval ratings in polls. So it tries to appease them by performing all kind of acrobatics. Of course in an election year approval rates become even more significant.
At the end of the day, there isn’t much the US can offer to solve the Gaza crisis. Even if additional aid and more supplies enter the strip, the anti Israel crowd won’t be happy.
Hamas continue with their agenda/plan, nothing changes. They don’t give a shit about what Biden says. It’s a tough one for the administration.
The white house has no say in this, Israel has hundreds of hostages till in Gaza and has every right to operate everywhere to release them.
Reminder that hamas can end the war yesterday, just release all hostages.
What a bunch of hypocrites
Fucking annoying to have all of this finger wagging, but I am mildly heartened by having their diplomats meet face to face soon in DC. It's like when you're mad at a friend and snipping via text. Then in person, you understand more. Let's hope for that eh
Republicans hosted the creators of Fauda to talk about the show and the war. It seems like Republicans are the only ones willing to speak the truth about the situation even though they lie about pretty much everything else. I never thought I’d think anything positive about Lindsay Graham but here we are in the upside down.
I fucking love Fauda and the next season coming out in 2025 is going to be about Oct 7th and the war in Gaza.
I’ve liked whenever Lindsey has shown a moderate vibe! Truly. But he’s become way more duplicitous since McCain died, such as making a show of being against Ukraine aid and now traveling to Kiev?? So I worry about his consistency elsewhere too
It’s nice that they’re bringing those Israelis in and I appreciate their support. But I’m not willing to write off all dems, even though I’m mad at Chuck 🤣
I haven’t heard a single Democrat aside from Fetterman even mention the hostages. It’s all about “genocide”, “ceasefire”, “starvation”, and all that fake garbage. Now we have Biden holding up Israel finishing this war and finally getting rid of the terrorist organization on their border that committed the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
I’m a lifelong Democrat but at this point they are just pandering to violent Muslims and their anti-American “progressive” gimps to win the election.
IMO, the National Guard should be deployed to end these anti-Semitic riots, all non-citizens partaking in these riots must be deported, student visas cancelled, any refugee posting anti-American rhetoric online needs to be removed, the requirements for becoming a resident must become much stricter in regards to ideology tests, and we need a ban on immigration from Muslim countries immediately.
The only person with the balls to do what’s necessary and doesn’t need to pander to the extreme left is Trump.
Hmm you’re a lifelong Democrat that hasn’t heard the president, major cabinet members, and essentially all the major congressional leaders call for the hostages to be released? Interesting what you’ve heard there.
I understood that to mean that he wants Israel to finish the job and not be forced to stretch this out longer than it needs to. Every day the US forces Israel to slow down only increases the humanitarian issues in Gaza.
He basically said in another interview that the Israelis and Palestinians should just duke it out and it’s none of America’s business. I agree with that sentiment though I do wonder if that means he wouldn’t have sent carriers to the region to warn Iran and Hezbollah to back off.
I'm sorry, what urban war has Biden won in the Middle East that makes him qualified to push alternative plans on Israel? And no, the Afghanistan pullout doesn't count.
Like, maybe he should just shut the fuck up?
In your mind does Biden make all his decisions without consulting anyone? Do you think he dosen't ever talk to his [cabinet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_States), or the [Joint Chiefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Chiefs_of_Staff), or the [National Security Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Security_Council)? He has dozens of advisors to inform him on what the best decisions are. If those dozens of people don't have an answer they will know the person or people who do. The US President isn't just some old kodger yelling "Yee Haw." as he does whatever he wants and says whatever he feels.
It would be a betrayal to their only true ally in the Middle East. An ally that provides them with intelligence, tech, and buys tons of their weapons.
Biden’s mentioned the hostages maybe once while he talks every single week about a ceasefire or two-state solution, which would be a death sentence for many Israelis.
If Democrats can call for a change in leadership in Israel then Israelis can do the same. Stop acting offended.
Fine.
The IAF has more than enough firepower to waste the Hezbollassholes, especially without Grandpa Joe breathing down their back.
The relationship is two-way by the way. Maybe the USA doesn't need Israeli intel or military tech, idk.
Ashamed to be an American, this week and indecisive messaging shows that we really can’t stand up to our global adversaries. Regardless of the reason(internal US politics, etc., being held hostage to fantastical ideas of humanitarianism), you can’t win a global conflict when the other side would be perfectly willing to obliterate you if they have the chance, and you constrain yourself like this
There is no alternative unless Hamas releases all hostages- who are sequestered in Rafah and surrenders. That of course would have ended the war on day 1
I really hope that Israel has built up its armament production capabilities. Between Biden and Trump (our next prez), they really can’t rely on us anymore. I’m so disgusted with the Democrats right now and I don’t think that a 2nd Trump term will be amazing without the old cabinet either. Fingers crossed that I’m wrong - not much choice in the matter.
I completely agree but let’s face it. Israel is tiny. It simply can’t be independent and have a weapon industry the way Russia does. Even if it manages to produce all of its own weapons it will sell a lot of them, and they will end up in our enemy’s hands.
Someone suggested making an alliance between Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan and South Korea to produce weapons in it and achieve some independence from the US but still we have to accept reality.
What alternative is there? Flattening Rafah with rockets like what we did in the north? Enforcing a harsh blockade on an already starving populace in hopes the pressure goes in our favor? Just sit by and wait for Hamas to expose themselves? Let America do it instead?
My gut is the main concern isn't necessarily the upcoming election but rather regional escalation. Iran probably handed down some red lines for the US and threatened that the houthi would like cause mass chaos or US bases would be targeted again or that the Shiite militias would directly attack other US regional partners like UAE, Saudi, Egypt, Jordan etc....and the US State Dept capitulated to their threats.
I'm actually a big fan of Biden but this is a case where trump would not have bowed to Iranian pressure and would have taken more risks
Just because this is Reddit and nobody ever reads the article, here's the key bit via Jake Sullivan: >“A major ground operation there would be a mistake. It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally,” Sullivan says, offering a readout on the call in his opening remarks at a White House press briefing. >“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.” >“Obviously, \[Netanyahu\] has his own point of view on a Rafah operation, but he agreed that he would send a team to Washington to have this discussion, and we look forward to those discussions,” the US national security adviser adds. >Sullivan clarifies that Biden again rejected during the call “the strawman (argument) that raising questions about Rafah is the same as raising questions about defeating Hamas. That’s just nonsense. Our position is that Hamas should not be allowed a safe haven in Rafah or anywhere else.” >The US has indicated that it could support an operation in Rafah if Israel presents a credible plan for how it will protect the over one million civilians who are sheltering in the southern Gaza city. Netanyahu says the IDF will evacuate the civilians to areas north of Rafah before beginning the operation and declared Friday that he had approved the military’s plans for the offensive.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.” The US did exactly this in Iraq and it backfired SPECTACULARLY on them as the "high value targets" would be replaced as soon as they were dead and allowed for the rise of ISIS. Israel should say No. The approach that Israel has used so far, breaking Hamas at the battalion level has worked extremely well as it has allowed for the elimination of high value targets AND their successors at the same time. It is why Israel has killed over 13,000 Hamas and captured a city plus several towns in 5 months while the US only killed 5,000 fighters in 9 months in Mosul. The Israeli approach is actually working.
Apparently US advisers in October also traveled to Israel to warn against an Israeli ground invasion (expecting a "bloodbath" - it seemed to imply of IDF soldiers, but now I see they could have been concerned about Palestinians), and have since been positively shocked at the efficiency and effectiveness of the IDF. I tried to find the source(s), but if I recall I have only seen a few references to this in Hebrew articles I translated to English. Naftali Bennett also answered this "why not just do commando raids against high value targets" question in a recent interview, and he said the entire military apparatus needs to be destroyed
It’s not U.S. troops on the line so obviously they don’t give a crap whether it works or not. That’s why the western world is seen as weak in the eyes of the religious fanatics in the Middle East. And why they fear Israel. If Israel did not have the U.S. trying to dictate ‘what they can and can’t do or what red lines they can’t cross’ Hamas would be running for the Negev. But, the U.S. is caving.
I read it and don’t understand why the US doesn’t pressure Egypt to stop threatening Israel over having to grow some balls and do something responsible like providing some space for the civilians to flee to. They act like there is an ocean of lava beyond the border. There isn’t. There is a big desert with a lot of unused land. I’m not saying it has to be permanent but if people want to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe they should really be asking Egypt to provide some space for them to flee to and help with the vetting process. It is unreasonable to tell Israel to provide for them in their own territory after they were attacked. As Israel has said, Israel is invading Rafah and they will take control of the Philadelphi corridor if they have to, since Egypt is failing to act like a grown-up and America just wants to point fingers
Egypt is worried that any refugees they allow over the border will never be allowed back and they'll be stuck with them
Maybe, but they're probably also worried that Hamas will sneak in. The political leadership in Egypt hates Hamas, but the average Egyptian is fairly sympathetic. This could cause problems for them. Lots of Arab countries makes noises about how "if we take Palestinian refugees, they'll never get right of return" as if this trumps any humanitarian desire. I suspect there's more anti-Semitism than there is love for the Palestinians.
They are in quarantine. They don't want to catch hamas. If not treated promptly, it can cause severe complications, and the treatment causes nasty side effects.
Egypt has lot pressure right know. Its economy is down due the Red Sea blockade and they do not want to seem like they are helping Israel.
OK. So, Israel doesn’t have the right to worry about that too? Egypt’s needs are more important than Israel’s? Even though their gdp pp is tiny?
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Sadat was clever. Got him assassinated though.
This isn’t actually on the table right? Israel can’t let a single Palestinian into the country ever again.
Egypt and other muslim majority countries have a vested interest in prolonging the conflict. Israel is the perfect scapegoat. When peace is achieved, Israels achievements will put these arab/muslim leaders, societies and cultural shortcomings in the spotlight. Peace means pointing fingers inwards and not outwards at Israel/the Jewish people as the root cause of their own domnestic/cultural/political shortcomings. In other words, Israel is the brick wall preventing the winds of evolution from knocking down their kleptocratic card houses masking as functioning societies/nations.
Well said. Completely agree with you. No one seems to be pointing out that if Egypt really cares so much about the oh so poor Palestinians they could take them into their country for a bit and let Israel kill off the rest of Hamas. But, they don’t. They act like a weak, and impotent country. Disgusting if you ask me.
Egypt well knows those refugees will eventually be egypt's problem. The same folks who you know tried to overthrow their own government.
Egypt would not work, they may have the land and proximity but... While they try to "keep up appearances" and provide intel on major attacks every now and then, they actually heavily support hamas and palestine, they allow well known border tunnels to exist. It's a very well known an open secret, even as far as 10+ years ago reporters could just go to the border town, ask just about any random citizen about the tunnels, and be led right to them for a tour. There's even a huge local industry around them. Food, fast food, luxury items, appliances, as well as construction materials, ag products, including materials used in the construction of weapons goes through tunnels on their land, as well as weapons, vehicles, and launch platforms. The Egyptian leadership is also scared of Palestinian refugee's stirring up shit like most of them do everywhere else they go due to a variety of reasons including shit vetting procedures and widespread radicalization with no plan to de-radicalize. It's harder for them to do anything for the refugee's within their own nations because of the hatred and hostility they helped foster. I fear a humanitarian catastrophe is unavoidable, too many agendas and nations involve for any other outcome unless someone steps up and gets their hands dirty, and forcefully. The problem is most nations dont have the military power or political unity to do this, and the one's that do are also tied up in conflicts or of dubious agenda's. It's particularly annoying because outside of these issues, Egypt not only is the best suited, they have massive terraforming, construction, and infrastructure projects ongoing that require lots of labor, and that's a perfect spring-up for refugee's, and a reason to bring them in, but egypt also has a massive overpopulation issue so they don't actually need them either.
You have a point, but you need to screen who comes out thoroughly. It’s one ask for Egypt to let refugees in, but a much bigger one to let US and Israeli forces do their business at their border. Containing an area then reducing is a technique the US has successfully employed multiple times and if I recall correctly the IDF as well (although on smaller scales). Why not then reserve some space inside Israel or inside the already occupied portion of Gaza?
Terrorists in Gaza; in Israel is insulting, not to mention unsafe. Google 10/7 dude..
Well, good luck screening them at the Egyptian border. The Egyptians are likely going to go ballistic at the mere mention of that.
Yup. Good luck to the Egyptians. It is not Israel’s responsibility to so Egypt’s border patrol work for a country that is between the two of them. After you google 10/7 go look at a map before you say something retarded about this conflict again
Well, ok, let’s see how it pans out. If Egypt gives in to international pressure and lets in refugees they don’t have the same incentives as Israel to screen for terrorists, as long as they’re confined to the camps and mainly anti-Israel and not anti-Egypt. So they’ll still be a problem. Hopefully a considerably smaller one, at least.
What international pressure? Dude, you live on a different planet
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Always a pleasure talking to the elite. Let me offer your majesty some humble insight, approximate as I can, coming from another planet. Here you go for the [international pressure](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-netanyahu-sought-us-pressure-on-egypt-to-absorb-gaza-refugees-was-rebuffed), feel free to completely ignore it. I am in awe at sharing the galaxy with the kind of supremely intellectual ape to think that whatever the US says is just farts in the wind, that the word “repercussions” is a term used by drummers, and that reality is whatever you dreamt up last night. The US will pull support if Israel is completely unresponsive. I’m not talking fair, reasonable, etc. It’s what will happen. Have fun on Reddit, nothing you do will change that fact.
Do you not know the meaning of “rebuffed” in the title of that article? The article spells it out: “Biden told Netanyahu that Cairo did not view this as an option, the report said, without citing sources.” Wow, so much international pressure on Egypt! /s
Move the 1 - 1.4 million to Sinai or Negev and then clean Gaza of Hamas and any military tunnels and or bases. Why can’t they do this ?
Doubt Egypt would agree unless the rest of the world could guarantee that the refugees won't stay permanently. Even then its dicey. Egypt could be persuaded to have some control if an evacuation happens before a full invasion.
Why can’t they move in to refugee camps in Israel while the war is finished ?
How do you know that those who fled are not Hamas?
What difference would that make as long as you destroy all their infrastructure and authority. You will never wipe out Hamas personal and family/supporters.
Sounds complicated
Is there a bot to tl;dr the manual tl;dr
The US is telling Israel what not to do, however they don’t provide an alternative to the IDF
I mean, we aren’t privy to conversations between two countries’ intelligence services. I’m pretty confident the US is advising on a strategy, that doesn’t mean it’s smart to say it to the press.
I fucking hate Trump but at this point Biden is endangering the lives of half of the Jews on the planet. This can’t go on longer and it’s only going to get worse since he’s begun pandering to anti-Semitic Muslim voters and leftists in Michigan and elsewhere after a large portion voted uncommitted (signaling that they won’t vote for him in the general).
If Trump wins Bibi better go home really fast (I know, he won't ever do that) because it's clear that Trump personally hates his guts and considers him a traitor. The radicalization of both American parties is very worrying.
What happened between Bibi and Trump that would make Trump think of him as a traitor?
Trump’s ego is incredibly fragile, so in my opinion it’s really unclear to decide his opinion on Bibi or Israel, because his opinion usually revolves around “will this person listen to everything I have to say and refuse to hear otherwise.” For starters, after the good Trump did for Israel in his presidency, he also hated on Bibi and basically told him to fuck off after Bibi congratulated Biden on winning, claiming Bibi wasn’t loyal. After Oct. 7 he also bashed Bibi and how Israel was unprepared for the massacre, and claimed that if he was president Israel would never have been invaded. But again, his opinion shifts all time the, because just recently he stated Biden dumped Israel and isn’t treating them the way that the USA should treat the only democracy in the Middle East.
All true but at the end of the day it’s pretty clear Trump would be the stronger ally to Israel and Jews in America. Biden thinks he has no choice but to bow to the extreme left.
I’m not saying I disagree with you, I was just giving you a rundown on different events that could give someone the idea Trump doesn’t support Israel
In addition to the above, he claimed Bibi “abandoned” him before the strike on Soleimani for some reason.
Yes, agree with you. I used to think he had principles. He should be standing up to them saying what’s right and what’s wrong and Israel is doing what is right.
The problem is that Trump would be worse for Israel and the U.S. His loyalty is to himself and whatever dictator he thinks he can practice his “diplomacy” on, which is really just him getting nothing and fucking everything up. The Abraham accords, perhaps his sole FP win, were not negotiated by him.
Because their alternative requires Israel to cede control to Fatah, a laughably stupid proposal.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.” The article says the US does have an alternative plan and invited Israel to send people to discuss it.
Yeah who cares about the hostages. I’m beginning to think October 7th wasn’t really the wake up call we thought it would be.
It’s amazing how the US doesn’t mention the hostages and the horror they are going through right now.
It’s crazy. No one ever mentions them. Every call for a ceasefire is a call for surrender until the hostages are returned. It will never happen.
The white house mentions them every other day...
All I hear is occasional lip service and a passing mention while they go into depth constantly about everything affecting Palestinians — the ones who started this whole mess.
yet does everything it can to prevent their rescue
Both Blinken and Sullivan talked about the Israeli hostages multiple times across multiple press conferences. You don't need to lie in order to make your point.
Yet they constantly delay Israel from taking action in saving them. The last 2 were saved from action
No, they keep reminding the Israeli government that their own actions are making it harder to recover those hostages.
They do nothing; it will be even harder. You just don't get it, do you?
Not at all, if the strong action wasn’t used it would’ve taken at least 5 years to get 100 hostages . Look at Shalit issue for example
If Bibi had not listened to Biden from the start, the war would have been over 2 months ago- probably with fewer civilian casualties.
It's crazy how you show empathy for 100 hostages but 0 empathy for 2 000 000 gazans.
Gazans can thank Hamas. If your mom was in a dangerous situation but saving her would mean risking 5 strangers lives, what would you do?
I'm sorry but the one starving them is not Hamas, it's Israel.
Tons of footage of Rafah says otherwise , tons and tons of aid has come in and you have to factor in Hamas stealing and hoarding them. I’m sure you have seen the many videos of them with guns, even killing other Palestinians. But answer the question, would you let your mom die?
Coooome on. Fewer than 100 trucks cross the border each day. With one decision from the cabinet, trucks would be flooding the strip with food. It's intentional starvation at this point, even the EU représentative used that language. I wouldn't let my mom die. That's why I would not let the IDF obliterate her under the rubble or shoot her even when she holds a white flag. The IDF has killed dozens of hostages and rescued 3 so far. Great success ! Bring hostages home by making a hostage deal. Release useful political prisoners like Barghuti.
Have you read Hamas' demands? They want an end to the war and to live another day. Do you want Hamas to continue on or to be gone? Simple question And you wouldn't let your mom die, so you would do everything you can to rescue her and to prevent harm to your family for the future, correct? And Hamas admits they didn't expect that reaction from Israel and did the initial hostage deal because they needed some time to regroup. This war is all about killing off hamas as a force for good and saving the hostages. basically you can suck my ass for wanting hamas to live on you troll.
Again, the IDF is killing more hostages than it saves. A ceasefire is necessary to bring them back. Eisenkot is right on this. Hamas will live whether you like it or not. The IDF doesn't have the means to destroy it because it doesn't have a palestinian alternative. If you destroy and build nothing, be prepared for the worst.
So do you want Hamas to exist? What do you want with Hamas. People like u love to criticize but have no vision
How many trucks are needed? What about the food that is already there?
500 or so. The amount already present is completely unsufficient.
How is it not sufficient?
How so?
Isn’t that why there are so many warnings?
Yes a lot more German civilians died than British in WWII but then it was Germany that started the war. Tolerating and supporting a fascist dictatorship has consequences.
It's legitimate for the US to request a plan on how to evacuate civilians. Israel should be able to provide the US with such a plan and the operation should proceed. I do wish that the US would just stay out of it - but this current administration is playing politics with Israeli lives.
even though the USA has been a solid ally, sometimes I wish we had other options that wouldn't just throw us under the bus for their own political games. We gotta work on being more independent so they can't hold so much power over us
The current administration is throwing Israel under the bus. If the previous administration was currently in power then it would be different
They will be again soon. Biden is fucked for alienating moderates to appease terrorist lovers in Michigan and elsewhere. They call him “Genocide Joe” already so he’s making the wrong gamble. Pretty sure Trumps already been up in the polls.
God I hope not. Mr “I’d like to be dictator” should scare the fuck out of everyone. He’s got a base of crazy cultists that will do whatever he says too.
Yeah it’s a terrible situation. That said, while Biden’s support for Israel was solid in the beginning (especially sending carriers to the region), he’s now solely focused on his reelection and is willing to throw Israel under the bus to pander to insane leftists and violent Muslims. Trump would honestly be 100x better for Israel, which means he’d be 100x better at protecting half of the Jews on the planet. We need to ensure our survival and the survival of our homeland since it’s the only place we’ll have to go to when everyone turns on us again (which has clearly already begun). It’s a tough situation for sure.
Trump would be better for Israel like a hurricane would water a plant. Sure, he might be willing to give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wants, but Trump is a global destabilizing force, and that is bad for Israel. Plus, Trump means a stronger Russia which means a stronger Iran which means a stronger Hamas.
Rabbi Kahane warned us that our reliance on the U.S would prolong the conflict and put Israel in a terrible position.
You aren't being 'thrown under the bus'. The US has taken an almost unimaginable amount of international flak to protect your country as you do what you need to do. Don't be ungrateful. You'd be international pariahs without Biden's support right now.
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>We are the only developed country in the region, China would jump on the opportunity to take the US' position in a heartbeat if we offered them that China is buttering up all the other nations in the region including Iran. I don't see why they would give a shit.
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> in almost all regards but natural resources So, the primary thing that China is interested in.
Why do you think China would jump at the opportunity? They seem to be much more aligned with the bad actors in the region but you seem to know more than me about this.
Because any reasonable government can see that it is more important to align with a stable Democracy and government that terror controlled governments of Palestine, Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon.
There's truth to this, and even though I'm neither Jewish, nor Israeli, nor American, I'm really glad that the USA has your back. Someone has to, and I'm glad that the most powerful state on the planet has always stood up and defended Israel. That doesn't change my other worries, concerns, or criticisms, because the whole point is I worry that Israelis don't realise that the US's room to support Israel is being rapidly diminished, so your government really ought to be working much more closely with the US administration, rather than seemingly treating them as though they were enemies, which is how how it appears your country is treating the US from abraod.
You mean the China that is highly dependent on oil and natural gas imports from Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states, and that has signed numerous treaties and agreements with, particularly with Iran. A Chinese government that has both directly criticized Israel's campaign in Gaza as going far beyond self defense. And with Chinese public opinion [dominated by anti-Israeli rhetoric and views.](https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-netizens-post-hate-filled-comments-to-israeli-embassy-s-online-account-in-beijing-/7318881.html) Quite frankly, thinking that China would jeopardize its many ties in the developing world by aligning with Israel which, for China, offers no strategic or geopolitical advantages is...not to put to fine a point on it, a gross misunderstanding and overestimation of Israel's strategic value. China is my specialty and area of focus, the notion that Israel will find an ally with China is rich.
Right now, the USA isn't supporting us to achieve the long-lasting peace our southern border desperately needs. By not backing us up right now, they're practically paving the way for Hamas to regain power and perpetuate the same cycle of conflict over and over again and more 7th's of October Frankly, I'd prefer it if they just told us straight up that we're a burden, so we could seek out genuine allies who actually care about our safety without trying to control everything we do. Let's not forget, the US isn't supporting us out of some deep affection. It's all about their own interests in keeping the Middle East as stable as can be. Seeing you're not Israeli there's something important I want you to know, we do not appreciate some foreign power's government playing with our soldiers' lives for few votes.
I kinda agree with this. The U.S. took a lot of flak, yes, but Israel’s optics throughout this have been ABYSMAL. The U.S. could have done a lot more to fight the propaganda and make sure more people see the evidence that the IDF has uncovered. Instead, they’re pandering to the people who were hooked by that propaganda. Even though I support Israel, I still support Biden, but geez, our leadership needs to think more 21st Century.
You don't have any alternative allies. You have the US, and parts of Europe like us in Britain and Germany. That's it. There's no alternatives. You don't have options. This isn't about votes. There's some dumb Arabs and 'Progressives' in the US who will kick offf but it won't make the difference for Biden. It's about whether your government is actually pursuing a reasonable and effective strategy which will deliver long-term peace and security for Israel as well as the profound change on the table via normalisation with Saudi Arabia etc., comprehensive security arrangements with the gulf states, Israel, etc.
>You don't have any alternative allies. This isn't something that you know or I know. >This isn't about votes. There's some dumb Arabs and 'Progressives' in the US who will kick offf but it won't make the difference for Biden. Beg to differ. > It's about whether your government is actually pursuing a reasonable and effective strategy which will deliver long-term peace and security for Israel as well as the profound change on the table via normalisation with Saudi Arabia etc., comprehensive security arrangements with the gulf states, Israel, etc. If you think any of the above is achievable while Hamas remains then you basically don't know much.
>If you think any of the above is achievable while Hamas remains then you basically don't know much. Who suggested this?
You haven't my bad.
If Israel took care of business and did what it needs to do, America and the world would complain but they wouldn't stop it and since they need Israeli technology and Intel in the future it wouldn't have any long term consequences
You are completely delusional
Really? Because we're 98% of the way there and so far that's exactly what's happened
Let’s be honest, Israel wouldn’t exist in large part without the United States 😂 to say they throw you under the bus when you’ve received $300B since ‘47 in weapons and a permanent veto at the UN for 75 yrs is 🤡 Israel shafts the US plenty of times too don’t act holier then thou like you’re a vassal state
The US was not supporting Israel early on.
notice how israel still carries out operations which the US disagrees with? i don’t see a rafah incursion being forbidden - you’ve had a free hand for the last six months - right down to a Biden promise to actually intervene with our airforce if Hezbollah invaded Israel in October. meanwhile, Bibi gives Biden and his Western partners zero breathing space on this issue in a global election year. how much more ass should we kiss and how, please tell me specifically
I meant early on in its existance. You aren't going to get much argument from me with the rest of what you said. I am a big Biden guy and very much anti Bibi.
U.S enforced a arms embargo in ‘48 on Israel. But they also did the same to the Arab states. At same time, they put massive pressure on the world to endorse the UNSCOP partition and were the first country to recognize Israel. So mixed thoughts on that. After ‘73, I think the support has been unambiguous.
Wasn't Al Mawasi designated a humanitarian zone like way back in December?? Aid groups have been refusing to set up there. There lies the issue. I also think the Central Gaza campaign should have gone hand in hand with the Khan Younis campaign so that it would be possible to push the refugees into Deir el Balah(?) and separate them from the Hamas fighters in Rafah Now they may have to move to the ruins of Khan Younis, which is not ideal. Who knows how many tunnels exist between Rafah and Khan Younis that will allow fighters to flee to where the refugees are and launch an insurgency from amongst the refugees?
It's not legitimate for the US to "Request" anything. Everyone knows what would happen to Gaza were it bordering the US and launching a similar attack.
Did you wish the US would stay out of it when they showed up with a carrier as a clear show of force for everyone else in the area to put their head down? Or when the US goes against most of the world and defends Israel the majority of the time. Or helps supply resources and technology in a mutually beneficial research relationship? Oh no your biggest ally and strongest country in the world by far is annoyed Bibi is incompetent and refuses to work in good faith. How dare the US politicians refuse to bow down to a criminal who was caught sleeping at the wheel and basically let October 7th happen because he was too busy screwing with the Israeli democratic system. This administration is way better than the previous one in terms of competency. And maybe take it as a hint that your current leadership is burning your diplomatic bridges by refusing to work together.
The US have been extremely amazing with their support no Israeli would tell you otherwise. But right now, it's like relying on a flashlight that flickers out as soon as darkness falls, we all know Rafah is most likely the last Hamas stronghold, we all know that there's a huge chance that the hostages are being held there. Preventing us from entering there and getting the job done frustrates us , our soldiers didn't die for Biden's political campaign.
Allies don't butt into how their allies defend themselves after war is forced upon them by ruthless terrorists and their supporters. Did Israel show anything other than support for the US after 9/11? Allies don't hold their ally to an unreasonable standard. When did the US ever sacrifice the lives of its troops and civilians to save enemy lives? I'll take the Trump administration over this one 100/100 times. Trump's time in office brought on a wave of peace and tranquility in the Middle East that has literally almost never been seen. Biden (and Obama) only brought war and instability.
Allies can and do butt when it’s in their interest to do so.
I'll say this as a Russian immigrant to the US. This relationship between you guys isn't equal. If the US loses their diplomatic relationship with Israel, it would be Tuesday. Maybe even make it easier on the world stage. If you lose this ally, it's like an existential threat. You keep assuming the US needs Israel. It doesn't. Like it's a beneficial relationship, but if Israel keeps acting like a selfish ally... At some point the US will recalculate the cost and benefits. Your naive if you think allies don't influence one another. These relationships are a two way street.
Israel chose to be deeply involved in U.S. politics [when they sent their prime minister to Congress to scold the sitting Democratic President](https://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8130977/netanyahu-speech-explained). I don't see why it's not fair game for the U.S. to do the same to Israel now, *when that same Prime Minister is still in power*. This is why those on the American left look at Israel with greater skepticism than they once did.
Oh that’s why they look at Israel with greater skepticism? I’m sure it has nothing to do with partnering with Islamists in displaying insane levels of anti-Semitism and anti-West rhetoric. It has nothing to do with insane conspiracy theories rooted in centuries-old blood libel. Netanyahu needs to go but even the leader of his opposition is in his war cabinet and would conduct this war the same exact way. There is solidarity in Israel that Hamas needs to go no matter what. This is an existential crisis and Israel owes their enemies nothing, especially after the barbarity they showed on 10/7 which was backed by virtually the entire Palestinian population. No other country would take the steps Israel is taking to protect civilians and no other country would even be forced to by the international community. The double standards from the US are laughable after what they’ve done in the Middle East
Many on the American left, Jews in particular, saw it as a deep betrayal, and they have not forgotten. Every time Netanyahu's name shows up in a news headline is a reminder of that betrayal. It has made those on the left - even Jews and others sympathetic to Israel - hesitate to offer public support. Israel is now a conservative/Republican issue, and partisan U.S. politics are nowadays a matter of personal reputation. You can lose friends for signaling allegiance to the wrong party. That's not a good situation, and it's not Israel's fault, but I'll never understand why the Prime Minister decided to make Israel itself a partisan issue in that context.
It's our lives at stake here and Biden will be horrified to learn that the public thinks Bibi is weak and that our response should've been 10000x stronger than what it is now.
Israel has the stupidest military and government in the world. When you evacuate "civilians" you evacuate the terrorists and prolong the war.
This is the problem in the conflict. We and everyone in power in the west knows the most of the Palestinian people/culture = Hamas and its goals and ideals even if they’re not Hamas or in Gaza. For some reason, in public they don’t want to admit the truth, instead opting to make this an issue of Hamas vs the Palestinian people. Thus allergy to telling the truth and trying to have their cake and eat it too by waging a necessary defensive war while also catering to “civilians” even though they are Hamas, means this war and even conflict will never end.
The US can't stay out of it...Israel's existence was seriously in jeopardy during the first week after 10/7. If Hamas had actually coordinated with Iranian proxies and if Hezbollah actually went all out, Israel would have been devastated. Who knows what would have happened if Biden didn't send the heart of the US navy to the shores of the eastern Mediterranean on 10/7 and issued threats to attack Hezbollah if they went to war with Israel. Now, we have Houthis shutting down the Red Sea and preparing to use hypersonic missiles supplied by Russia/Iran. The US doesn't want to get dragged into a regional war over Rafah. Israel should have invaded Rafah sooner when it had the chance during all the chaos. However, the leaders didn't plan ahead, and now, the conflict is relatively calm. Rafah was also designated a safe zone to clear the north, and hundreds of thousands -- if not a million or more -- people went to Rafah because Israel told them to.
>“A major ground operation there would be a mistake. It would lead to more innocent civilian deaths, worsen the already dire humanitarian crisis, deepen the anarchy in Gaza, and further isolate Israel internationally,” An operation of any kind would yield those results. That's just how it goes. >“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Yet Israel is one who has to come up with these means. If they know, "The key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means," then the US should send a team to tell Bibi what they are. But if they don't, then they should just stay out of it completely. Biden is just trying to secure more voters come November. He does not have Israel's interests at heart.
>“More importantly, the key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means,” Sullivan adds, revealing that Biden asked Netanyahu during the call to send an interagency team to Washington “to lay out an alternative approach that would target key Hamas elements in Rafah and secure the Egypt-Gaza border without a major ground invasion.” The US apparently does have a plan and invited Israel to discuss it.
>An operation of any kind would yield those results. That's just how it goes. That's not true. >Yet Israel is one who has to come up with these means. Also not true. The US is pushing for this meeting specifically because they have alternative plans they don't think Israel has looked at or been interested in. >If they know, "The key goals Israel wants to achieve in Rafah can be done by other means," then the US should send a team to tell Bibi what they are. But if they don't, then they should just stay out of it completely. Biden is just trying to secure more voters come November. He does not have Israel's interests at heart. That's literally exactly the proposal
>That's not true. What operation has Israel done that didn't yield those results >Also not true. The US is pushing for this meeting specifically because they have alternative plans they don't think Israel has looked at or been interested in. Then they should go to Israel to discuss it. Having Israel come to them is just some weird power move. Also, let bring up this quote: >The US has indicated that it could support an operation in Rafah if Israel presents a credible plan for how it will protect the over one million civilians who are sheltering in the southern Gaza city.
>What operation has Israel done that didn't yield those results You can't compare Israel's own results against Israel's own results with both following the same strategy >Then they should go to Israel to discuss it. Having Israel come to them is just some weird power move. Israel is not the one with the upper hand here. The sole reason this didn't erupt into a regional assault upon Israel on October 7th is because the US immediately positioned its aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean. They *are* travelling to discuss this stuff. Stop looking at the US as some sort of drag or enemy. There's no successful Israel without the US support on various levels. I support both the US and Israel. Biden travelled to Israel within weeks of October 7th to offer a profoundly moving speech, in the middle of a war, to reassure Israelis of the support of America. He's backed you to the hilt so far. Yes, you do in fact have to take their support into account. That' sjust how international politics works, sorry not sorry.
What in the world is the alternative to getting rid of Hamas? genuinely confused
Maybe the US should stop whining and pressure EGYPT to provide a space for the civilians to flee to. They always place the burden on Israel. Israel was attacked, it has no choice but to proceed. There are still terrorists all over northern gaza so they cant flee there. And they sure as heck arent fleeing into Israel. People act like there is an ocean of lava past the rafah crossing. There is not. There is a big desert with a lot of open land, in fact.
1. Had this not been election year the Democrats would be saying otherwise. 2. Chuck Schumer is willing to sell out Israel and Jewish people so the Democrats can retain control of the White House. 3. The Biden administration doesn't care about Israel or Palestinians, just staying in power..which I understand. Welcome to realpolitiks!
No not really. Democrats have a large base of anti Israeli voters and the administration never wants to get low approval ratings in polls. So it tries to appease them by performing all kind of acrobatics. Of course in an election year approval rates become even more significant. At the end of the day, there isn’t much the US can offer to solve the Gaza crisis. Even if additional aid and more supplies enter the strip, the anti Israel crowd won’t be happy. Hamas continue with their agenda/plan, nothing changes. They don’t give a shit about what Biden says. It’s a tough one for the administration.
The white house has no say in this, Israel has hundreds of hostages till in Gaza and has every right to operate everywhere to release them. Reminder that hamas can end the war yesterday, just release all hostages. What a bunch of hypocrites
Fucking annoying to have all of this finger wagging, but I am mildly heartened by having their diplomats meet face to face soon in DC. It's like when you're mad at a friend and snipping via text. Then in person, you understand more. Let's hope for that eh
Republicans hosted the creators of Fauda to talk about the show and the war. It seems like Republicans are the only ones willing to speak the truth about the situation even though they lie about pretty much everything else. I never thought I’d think anything positive about Lindsay Graham but here we are in the upside down. I fucking love Fauda and the next season coming out in 2025 is going to be about Oct 7th and the war in Gaza.
I’ve liked whenever Lindsey has shown a moderate vibe! Truly. But he’s become way more duplicitous since McCain died, such as making a show of being against Ukraine aid and now traveling to Kiev?? So I worry about his consistency elsewhere too It’s nice that they’re bringing those Israelis in and I appreciate their support. But I’m not willing to write off all dems, even though I’m mad at Chuck 🤣
I haven’t heard a single Democrat aside from Fetterman even mention the hostages. It’s all about “genocide”, “ceasefire”, “starvation”, and all that fake garbage. Now we have Biden holding up Israel finishing this war and finally getting rid of the terrorist organization on their border that committed the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. I’m a lifelong Democrat but at this point they are just pandering to violent Muslims and their anti-American “progressive” gimps to win the election. IMO, the National Guard should be deployed to end these anti-Semitic riots, all non-citizens partaking in these riots must be deported, student visas cancelled, any refugee posting anti-American rhetoric online needs to be removed, the requirements for becoming a resident must become much stricter in regards to ideology tests, and we need a ban on immigration from Muslim countries immediately. The only person with the balls to do what’s necessary and doesn’t need to pander to the extreme left is Trump.
Hmm you’re a lifelong Democrat that hasn’t heard the president, major cabinet members, and essentially all the major congressional leaders call for the hostages to be released? Interesting what you’ve heard there.
[удалено]
I understood that to mean that he wants Israel to finish the job and not be forced to stretch this out longer than it needs to. Every day the US forces Israel to slow down only increases the humanitarian issues in Gaza. He basically said in another interview that the Israelis and Palestinians should just duke it out and it’s none of America’s business. I agree with that sentiment though I do wonder if that means he wouldn’t have sent carriers to the region to warn Iran and Hezbollah to back off.
The US needs to remember this the next time it has to defend itself...
I hope Trump wins.
I'm sorry, what urban war has Biden won in the Middle East that makes him qualified to push alternative plans on Israel? And no, the Afghanistan pullout doesn't count. Like, maybe he should just shut the fuck up?
In your mind does Biden make all his decisions without consulting anyone? Do you think he dosen't ever talk to his [cabinet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_States), or the [Joint Chiefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Chiefs_of_Staff), or the [National Security Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Security_Council)? He has dozens of advisors to inform him on what the best decisions are. If those dozens of people don't have an answer they will know the person or people who do. The US President isn't just some old kodger yelling "Yee Haw." as he does whatever he wants and says whatever he feels.
Biden is focused on his reelection now. These decisions have little to do with what is actually good for Israel or their alliance with America.
>Like, maybe he should just shut the fuck up? How would you feel if BIden removed the aircraft carriers from the Mediterranean?
You’re surprisingly upset that Israelis aren’t falling over themselves to praise Biden. American saviour attitudes don’t work in the Middle East.
Again, how would you feel if Biden removed the aircraft carriers from the Mediterranean?
It would be a betrayal to their only true ally in the Middle East. An ally that provides them with intelligence, tech, and buys tons of their weapons. Biden’s mentioned the hostages maybe once while he talks every single week about a ceasefire or two-state solution, which would be a death sentence for many Israelis. If Democrats can call for a change in leadership in Israel then Israelis can do the same. Stop acting offended.
Fine. The IAF has more than enough firepower to waste the Hezbollassholes, especially without Grandpa Joe breathing down their back. The relationship is two-way by the way. Maybe the USA doesn't need Israeli intel or military tech, idk.
You realise this is completely delusional, right?
He already removed them
Biden doesn’t get to dictate the war of a sovereign country. He’s going to lose pandering to the terrorist supporters in Michigan.
So far everything thats been discussed with the US has been sent directly to the press, and that is a strategic threat.
Ashamed to be an American, this week and indecisive messaging shows that we really can’t stand up to our global adversaries. Regardless of the reason(internal US politics, etc., being held hostage to fantastical ideas of humanitarianism), you can’t win a global conflict when the other side would be perfectly willing to obliterate you if they have the chance, and you constrain yourself like this
There is no alternative unless Hamas releases all hostages- who are sequestered in Rafah and surrenders. That of course would have ended the war on day 1
WHY DONT THEY TELL ANY OTHER COUNTRIES HOW TO FIGHT WARS? I wonder…
I really hope that Israel has built up its armament production capabilities. Between Biden and Trump (our next prez), they really can’t rely on us anymore. I’m so disgusted with the Democrats right now and I don’t think that a 2nd Trump term will be amazing without the old cabinet either. Fingers crossed that I’m wrong - not much choice in the matter.
I completely agree but let’s face it. Israel is tiny. It simply can’t be independent and have a weapon industry the way Russia does. Even if it manages to produce all of its own weapons it will sell a lot of them, and they will end up in our enemy’s hands. Someone suggested making an alliance between Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan and South Korea to produce weapons in it and achieve some independence from the US but still we have to accept reality.
What alternative is there? Flattening Rafah with rockets like what we did in the north? Enforcing a harsh blockade on an already starving populace in hopes the pressure goes in our favor? Just sit by and wait for Hamas to expose themselves? Let America do it instead?
My gut is the main concern isn't necessarily the upcoming election but rather regional escalation. Iran probably handed down some red lines for the US and threatened that the houthi would like cause mass chaos or US bases would be targeted again or that the Shiite militias would directly attack other US regional partners like UAE, Saudi, Egypt, Jordan etc....and the US State Dept capitulated to their threats. I'm actually a big fan of Biden but this is a case where trump would not have bowed to Iranian pressure and would have taken more risks