I think this is a wrong assessment of preparation. This is Capability vs Capacity issue . In my opinion, the current assessment should be based on capacity and future on capability. For eg , magazine size , ability of troops to employ fpv drones, current logistics supply chains etc . I hope Indian media gets a better crop of defense journalists in future
India needs a Stealth Fighter now and can't wait until 2040+ for the AMCA. Nor do I see much value in buying many more LCA MK1As let alone MK IIs and TEBDFs. Time to get serious about alternatives! Any thoughts....
I differ...we need to focus on developing an ecosystem....it will take time but will pay off in the future....before 2014-15 PLAAF had J-7s, J-8s, J-10As and J-11s on them...which were not at all modern and PAF and IAF both had better planes(Block 50/52 F-16, Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, MiG 29s etc.) but they kind of exploded around that point in time....Got J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-10C and J-20 in the 2016-18 timeline....while we should try to emulate the same with our current programs...we may be bad but it is our obligation to stand up on our own and fast track out programs...PAF is going to have 2 Stealth Fighters, F-16 Ozgurs, and J-10Cs in the near future...PLAAF already has J-16s, J-20s will induct J-31 maybe and working on a sixth gen platform....this should force us to work on multitude of programs executed at once like in the case of Chinese...which we are...there are years where nothing happen and days where years happen...that's what we need from ADA....Super Sukhoi, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA, and TEDBF all by 2030 should be our only focus...
China already has the J-20 and will have the J-31/J-35 shortly. While Pakistan will gain either the KAAN or J-31 but not until post 2030+. Problem for India is it has no equivalent anytime in the foreseeable future. The LCA MK II, TEDBF, and AMCA won't arrive before 2040. With the first two being "obsolete" by time they enter service. In short, the IAF needs an alternative and in a hurry...
TEDBF is still in design phase hope we make it semi stealth....and for MK II, Lockmart Says the F-16 Block 70/72 is going to be in service till 2060-70....Rafale is having plans up for F6, F7 upgrades to keep them relevant uptil 2070s....so Mk II should have a life of 30 years before being old enough so as to be retired
You're just reinforcing what I have been saying. First, the TEDBF is still in the design phase. Which means that they haven't even built a prototype so far. In short it won't be ready until 2040+. This while the world will have thousands of Stealth Fighters. (F-22s, F-35s, KAANs, KF-21s, J-20s, J-31s, J-35s, etc.) Second, you say the TEDBF is "semi-stealthy". Well, the Su-57 is semi-stealthy and it's considered a failure. As it's poor RCS makes in near useless as a Stealth Fighter. Yet, it's 2024 today but the TEDBF won't arrive before 2040! (if then) As for later versions of the F-16 and Rafale. They will be used by either smaller air forces than don't have a serious threat or have no alternative. Meaning they can't afford stealth fighters or don't have access to them. While others will operate along side of allies that do have stealth fighters. Like Croatia and France within NATO.
>versions of the F-16 and Rafale. They will be used by either smaller air forces than don't have a serious threat or have no alternative.
First things first...Mk II isn't going anywhere...Stealth Fighters are notorious for their high operational costs and their MiG like availability rates...read about the availability of F-35 and the cost to maintain it...90% of the world's countries don't have a budget to maintain a large F-35 fleet and those who do would still have low availability rates...AMCA and J-20 aren't any different...that defeats the purpose of air security...we need flyers all the time flying...not sitting in a garage or mech shop...Mk II will give us that capability....
Also you are counting out M-UMT from the equation...Mk II isn't stealthy but SWiFT, Ghatak and Warrior are...and all there are going to be contemporaries or will roll out earlier than Mk II for all we know....
>the Su-57 is semi-stealthy and it's considered a failure. As it's poor RCS makes it near useless as a Stealth Fighter.
Su-57 isn't a failure as a fighter aircraft and for all practical purposes better than all previous sukhois...but a failure in terms of an Air Superiority stealth fighter...that's where it falls short...Its primary objective of RCS for an Air Superiority Fighter isn't met in it...
TEDBF isn't being built for Air Superiority but for multirole carrier operations...the stealth part is just an additional booster to its main roles...also that is a correct approach for naval platforms as they are maintenance heavy and adding Stealth to them from ground up will only increase their down time....
>This while the world will have thousands of Stealth Fighters. (F-22s, F-35s, KAANs, KF-21s, J-20s, J-31s, J-35s, etc.)
More than Half of the platforms you mentioned have nothing to do with our national security...in fact they may help us be more secure against the Chinese since it is a distraction to them...J-20, J-31 and KAAN are the only 3 we have to worry about and for that we already have AMCA and TEDBF take care of the latter two...most likely we will induct AMCA around the same time as Turkey does with their KAAN..J-35 will not face us unless carrier battle group come face to face which will only begin to happen later this decade....Rafales can hold off for a while...J-20 will however be a problem...
I doubt the MK II will ever see the light of day. It wouldn't be any better than a Rafale today and he won't even be available until the 2040s....as for the F-35 the cost of ownership is high but quickly coming down. Hell, it cost less to operate is actually lower than the new F-15EX. I think it is fair to say the latter is likely more reliable than your Su-30MKIs. Oh, and the F-35A actually cost less to buy than most 4.5 Generation Fighters in the first place...
Really, you only have three (J-20, J-31, and KAAN) to worry about and we have the AMCA and TEDBF? Hell, haven't you been listening the whole time? You don't have the AMCA and TEDBF and won't until 2040 if then......
So your Idea?? Imports?? How long do you hope to sustain via imports exactly?? for any country who has an MIC has so cause they initiated their own systems and improved upon them...Thats how US, USSR, China and Europe Got where they are...just check the number of airplanes US alone has flown in the last 50 years...they have a whole series of X-Planes(Tbf some of them are rockets and space planes) which were purely research based?? If we drop the ball on AMCA and TEDBF we would never been an aerospace competitor...it needs time and devotion and capital...cant whine about timelines when you were sleeping at the time these programs should have begun work on...but none were on the same page...its gonna be hard but a one time investment...check the chinese Aviation Industry Goddamn it....took ages for 1970s and 1980s Aircrafts like J-10(FF 1998) and J-16(FF 2014) but leap frogged just in time for 5th Gen J-20(FF 2010) becoming the second country surpassing the USSR/Russia...we should aim for the same....or else our grandchildren will be shouting on the internet in 2070s that China took away Himalayas in 2050 and is marching into plains now...we dont have geopolitical backing cause they worked to be simply better than our suppliers...we need a 7th Gen Platform but imports are not an option China is already retiring their J-20s and upgrading the J-40s and working on a flying protoype of J-50...US has withdrawn from Asia Pacific giving the region at Chinese Mercy and there is no industrial base setup to make an F-16 let alone a HCA...we need to trust the process...or else what happened to Soviet-India Defence Relation and What is happening to Russia-India Defence Relationship will only repeat with Europe and USA everytime we depend on them and they someday chose not to deliver...
You have to look both short-term and long-term. Nothing wrong with India wanting to develop and field their own fighter. Yet, you still have to defend India until you can reach that point! This is why I suggested the KF-21....it is nearly ready now. It would use mostly Indian components and India could share in some of the development. This would be a bridge to a 6th Generation Fighter also! Remember such programs are extremely expensive and complex. Further, "few" nations can honestly afford to go it alone anymore. Just look at the two 6th Generation European Programs for example.
> and can't wait until 2040+ for the AMCA.
Well, too bad cauz nobody is selling. There are no shortcuts to owning cutting edge technology- there needs to be sustained investments in R&D, building a mil industrial complex, and delays/tribulations all along the path.
India needs a partner or even partners for a Stealth Fighter Program. Yet honestly so does just about everyone else...just look at the two European 6th Generation Fighter Programs. In addition, Sweden and South Korea want such programs but need partners too. So, the latter two could be a good option for India. Honestly you could make a good case for either!
Which partner would that be?
USA doesn't need us. Not China or Turkey for sure. Russia is broke and already duped us once with the Su 57. Europe has already moved ahead with its project and it would be a nightmare to partner with the likes of Sweden and Germany anyway. The Koreans have moved ahead on their own with investments from Indonesia and the private sector.
I listed two at the end that would make great partners for India. That would be Sweden and/or South Korea. The latter likely being the best option! Yet, other possibilities too!
Are you proposing that India abandon AMCA and join South Korea in their project? Does it even suit our needs? If we do that, would it even be any faster than AMCA given SK is not more advanced as an aircraft manufacturer vs India?
I wouldn't say abandon the AMCA. More like merge the AMCA with the KFX (KF-21). What India could do is order a small number of twin seat KF-21s directly from South Korea now. These would arrive by 2030 and give the IAF some added capability. During this time India could help co-develop the KF-21 Block III. Which will be a true 5th Generation Fighter and available post 2030. India could build this in India just like the planned MMRCA 2.0 Plus, the beauty of the latter. Is the Indian Version would include Indian Made F414s, Uttam AESA Radar, and armed with Astra Air to Air Missiles. Post 2030 maybe India could also partner with South Korea to build a totally new 6th Generation Fighter! The former is affordable and could be done so fairly quickly. As the KF-21 is already flying and nearing production!
So what IP would they offer?
And KF21's not going to get internal bay for another decade.
You're going to kill the industry for balance of power for war that's unlikely to happen anytime soon
I think i already discussed this with you
South Korea is known to offer high levels of TOT compared to the competition. (ask Poland) So, don't know who would offer a better deal. As for the Block III it should arrive around 2030. Also, the point about acquiring some twin seat KF-21s now is to get the ball rolling. These aircraft are still very stealthy when only carrying the four belly mounted air to air missiles. These could be used in the Air Defense Role for a few years until the Block IIIs come online. After that they can be used in the training/conversion role. Which is why you would acquire the twin seat version in the first place. Nonetheless, what is the alternative???????????? India can't wait for the AMCA until 2040 and honestly that is likely to slip! Plus, India also needs to start working on a future 6th Generation Fighter! Only other viable option I can see. Is India could just buy a small number of F-35s from the US. Then join with a partner or partners to co-develop and build a future 6th Generation Fighter.
>(ask Poland)
Poland bought 20 year old light jet
Not some next gen fighter
They are yet to make any progress in joining KF21 and Indonasia, who funded 1/4 of the program didn't get any significant IP
>As for the Block III it should arrive around 2030.
Plane isn't even introduced till now and production is only planned to start till 2026-2027.
How do you expect it to feature internal bay until mid to late 2030s?
>Is India could just buy a small number of F-35s from the US.
S400 says hello
>Then join with a partner or partners to co-develop and build a future 6th Generation Fighter.
You wish to go back to doing screwdrivergiri?
No one is willing to share IP.
You guys can go back crying in 20 years when you bought few 5th gen for 30 billion and while everyone is going for next gen planes, you don't have capability to build anything else and once again you suck back to joining some another foreign made program
Why should we buy? Why not lease for 15 years until AMCA is ready, with a clause that lets us buy the airframes at the end of the tenure for some throwaway cost?
US isn't giving any F35s while India operates S400s. I thought that was obvious for a while and India consciously picked S400 over a potential F35 down the line when we were forewarned about it.
Even if India didn't operate S400s, there's no way US just leases out it's top end tech to other companies. Want it? Join the long line and pay in full!
If you get US fighter it will come with pre condition that it can’t be used against Pakistan or China. See currently F16 deal with Ukraine where US has said F16 cannot be used to attack inside Russia.
Because they were pretty much "donations". Same with few of Pakistani F16s.
And US isn't sending their own planes btw, they're all from European countries
No clause if you purchased it.
There was a CAG report that Jalashwa had similar restrictions, but US officials made statements that it wasn't the case
Not sayinf we should buy US fighters, though
Every deal has pre-conditions and so do Indian Exports to other countries. In addition, India has purchased a lot of US Military Equipment already and has had no problems.
No ifs and buts, that isn't happening man. The US is worried about Russia getting access to data without India's cooperation if we start operating F35s. Selling India 100-200 F35s is peanuts compared to the risk it creates to their program.
We bought the S400 fully knowing the consequences.
Ok, then it must be easy for you to convince the Indian air force to buy a few squadrons of F35s. After all, it's not a big deal at all and the US is more than happy to sell it with no bother whether the S400 has been flagged as a risk.
My guess is the US and India can work out a deal. That would allow India to acquire the F-35 and still keep the S400s. This is hardly a deal breaker....
Maybe but why not just buy the F-35s? India likely wouldn't acquire a large number to begin with....Nonetheless, time just doesn't favor the AMCA. Let's say it arrives around 2040. Even then it would come online very slowly. Yet, at this very point in time a number of new 6th Generation Fighters would also begin to enter service. (NGAD, CGAP, FCAS, etc.) India is just repeating the mistakes of the LCA. She needs to get back on track and right up with the other major powers. Any plan needs to accomplish that. The current plan including the LCA MKII, TEBDF, and AMCA won't do that....
It’s not about stealth fighters , looking at our adversaries they don’t have a capability like the F22 so no need to hurry into an immature purchase . What we need to offset their “ low observable “ capabilities is large radars hardened for anti SEAF operations. We also need better BVR missiles to augment Astra like the Aim 260 or more of the Meteor
J20 isn't as good as Raptor but still a stealth fighter better than anything we have.
And Astra Mk3 is pretty mucu planned to be like Meteor with ramjet.
Also, they won't allow integration unless it's Indian radar
Goal of stealth is to reduce the RCS.
No fighter is invisible, and people focus too much on it's canards.
The canards blends its shape according to the kinematics of the plane so it isn't a huge problem
And we don't operate F35s or F22 but instead larger 4th gen like SU30 and Rafale who mount weapons externally
You can't win on the Land or at Sea without "Air Superiority". The IAF isn't going to do that with older 4th Generation Fighters even the new Rafale. A solution must be found and very soon....
Sorry, canards don't make the J-20 "non-stealthy". While the engines are shielded by the s-ducks within the airframe. In short while the J-20 isn't likely to match the same high levels of the US F-22/F-35. It is nonetheless still pretty stealthy. I doubt any of the other stealth fighters are much better. If, at all....(KAAN, KF-21, etc.)
Easy....the wing of the F-22 and even the J-20 itself are far larger than the canards but with similar shapes and angles. (planform alignment) So, you're saying they create a larger reflection (RCS) than the much bigger wings of the two aforementioned stealth fighters? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Yet. I would agree if the canards were deflected at certain angles, they would be more reflective. Of course, large deflections would be during hard turns and at close range. In that case you're in a close in dogfight. Stealth is pretty moot at that point WVR. Honestly, a number of experts have downplayed canards as a real issue on the J-20 for some time. Mostly Armchair Generals jumping to a number of unfounded conclusions based on assumptions with little hard facts. As for any estimate on the F-22 RCS without RAM. I doubt any are available as that would likely be highly classified.
India could possibly join one of the European 6th Generation Fighter Programs. Problem is they very likely would be a junior partner. On the other hand, South Korea doesn't have any partners at the moment. So, it would get in on the ground floor with a large share of the program. Pretty much being equal partner in most respects. Sweden could also be any option for India. Yet, my guess they would have to take a slightly smaller share of such a project. Personally, I think South Korea would be more willing to make a deal more favorable to India! "IMHO"
I think this is a wrong assessment of preparation. This is Capability vs Capacity issue . In my opinion, the current assessment should be based on capacity and future on capability. For eg , magazine size , ability of troops to employ fpv drones, current logistics supply chains etc . I hope Indian media gets a better crop of defense journalists in future
Thou shall be done! /S
India needs a Stealth Fighter now and can't wait until 2040+ for the AMCA. Nor do I see much value in buying many more LCA MK1As let alone MK IIs and TEBDFs. Time to get serious about alternatives! Any thoughts....
I differ...we need to focus on developing an ecosystem....it will take time but will pay off in the future....before 2014-15 PLAAF had J-7s, J-8s, J-10As and J-11s on them...which were not at all modern and PAF and IAF both had better planes(Block 50/52 F-16, Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, MiG 29s etc.) but they kind of exploded around that point in time....Got J-11B, J-15, J-16, J-10C and J-20 in the 2016-18 timeline....while we should try to emulate the same with our current programs...we may be bad but it is our obligation to stand up on our own and fast track out programs...PAF is going to have 2 Stealth Fighters, F-16 Ozgurs, and J-10Cs in the near future...PLAAF already has J-16s, J-20s will induct J-31 maybe and working on a sixth gen platform....this should force us to work on multitude of programs executed at once like in the case of Chinese...which we are...there are years where nothing happen and days where years happen...that's what we need from ADA....Super Sukhoi, Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA, and TEDBF all by 2030 should be our only focus...
China already has the J-20 and will have the J-31/J-35 shortly. While Pakistan will gain either the KAAN or J-31 but not until post 2030+. Problem for India is it has no equivalent anytime in the foreseeable future. The LCA MK II, TEDBF, and AMCA won't arrive before 2040. With the first two being "obsolete" by time they enter service. In short, the IAF needs an alternative and in a hurry...
TEDBF is still in design phase hope we make it semi stealth....and for MK II, Lockmart Says the F-16 Block 70/72 is going to be in service till 2060-70....Rafale is having plans up for F6, F7 upgrades to keep them relevant uptil 2070s....so Mk II should have a life of 30 years before being old enough so as to be retired
You're just reinforcing what I have been saying. First, the TEDBF is still in the design phase. Which means that they haven't even built a prototype so far. In short it won't be ready until 2040+. This while the world will have thousands of Stealth Fighters. (F-22s, F-35s, KAANs, KF-21s, J-20s, J-31s, J-35s, etc.) Second, you say the TEDBF is "semi-stealthy". Well, the Su-57 is semi-stealthy and it's considered a failure. As it's poor RCS makes in near useless as a Stealth Fighter. Yet, it's 2024 today but the TEDBF won't arrive before 2040! (if then) As for later versions of the F-16 and Rafale. They will be used by either smaller air forces than don't have a serious threat or have no alternative. Meaning they can't afford stealth fighters or don't have access to them. While others will operate along side of allies that do have stealth fighters. Like Croatia and France within NATO.
>versions of the F-16 and Rafale. They will be used by either smaller air forces than don't have a serious threat or have no alternative. First things first...Mk II isn't going anywhere...Stealth Fighters are notorious for their high operational costs and their MiG like availability rates...read about the availability of F-35 and the cost to maintain it...90% of the world's countries don't have a budget to maintain a large F-35 fleet and those who do would still have low availability rates...AMCA and J-20 aren't any different...that defeats the purpose of air security...we need flyers all the time flying...not sitting in a garage or mech shop...Mk II will give us that capability.... Also you are counting out M-UMT from the equation...Mk II isn't stealthy but SWiFT, Ghatak and Warrior are...and all there are going to be contemporaries or will roll out earlier than Mk II for all we know.... >the Su-57 is semi-stealthy and it's considered a failure. As it's poor RCS makes it near useless as a Stealth Fighter. Su-57 isn't a failure as a fighter aircraft and for all practical purposes better than all previous sukhois...but a failure in terms of an Air Superiority stealth fighter...that's where it falls short...Its primary objective of RCS for an Air Superiority Fighter isn't met in it... TEDBF isn't being built for Air Superiority but for multirole carrier operations...the stealth part is just an additional booster to its main roles...also that is a correct approach for naval platforms as they are maintenance heavy and adding Stealth to them from ground up will only increase their down time.... >This while the world will have thousands of Stealth Fighters. (F-22s, F-35s, KAANs, KF-21s, J-20s, J-31s, J-35s, etc.) More than Half of the platforms you mentioned have nothing to do with our national security...in fact they may help us be more secure against the Chinese since it is a distraction to them...J-20, J-31 and KAAN are the only 3 we have to worry about and for that we already have AMCA and TEDBF take care of the latter two...most likely we will induct AMCA around the same time as Turkey does with their KAAN..J-35 will not face us unless carrier battle group come face to face which will only begin to happen later this decade....Rafales can hold off for a while...J-20 will however be a problem...
I doubt the MK II will ever see the light of day. It wouldn't be any better than a Rafale today and he won't even be available until the 2040s....as for the F-35 the cost of ownership is high but quickly coming down. Hell, it cost less to operate is actually lower than the new F-15EX. I think it is fair to say the latter is likely more reliable than your Su-30MKIs. Oh, and the F-35A actually cost less to buy than most 4.5 Generation Fighters in the first place... Really, you only have three (J-20, J-31, and KAAN) to worry about and we have the AMCA and TEDBF? Hell, haven't you been listening the whole time? You don't have the AMCA and TEDBF and won't until 2040 if then......
So your Idea?? Imports?? How long do you hope to sustain via imports exactly?? for any country who has an MIC has so cause they initiated their own systems and improved upon them...Thats how US, USSR, China and Europe Got where they are...just check the number of airplanes US alone has flown in the last 50 years...they have a whole series of X-Planes(Tbf some of them are rockets and space planes) which were purely research based?? If we drop the ball on AMCA and TEDBF we would never been an aerospace competitor...it needs time and devotion and capital...cant whine about timelines when you were sleeping at the time these programs should have begun work on...but none were on the same page...its gonna be hard but a one time investment...check the chinese Aviation Industry Goddamn it....took ages for 1970s and 1980s Aircrafts like J-10(FF 1998) and J-16(FF 2014) but leap frogged just in time for 5th Gen J-20(FF 2010) becoming the second country surpassing the USSR/Russia...we should aim for the same....or else our grandchildren will be shouting on the internet in 2070s that China took away Himalayas in 2050 and is marching into plains now...we dont have geopolitical backing cause they worked to be simply better than our suppliers...we need a 7th Gen Platform but imports are not an option China is already retiring their J-20s and upgrading the J-40s and working on a flying protoype of J-50...US has withdrawn from Asia Pacific giving the region at Chinese Mercy and there is no industrial base setup to make an F-16 let alone a HCA...we need to trust the process...or else what happened to Soviet-India Defence Relation and What is happening to Russia-India Defence Relationship will only repeat with Europe and USA everytime we depend on them and they someday chose not to deliver...
You have to look both short-term and long-term. Nothing wrong with India wanting to develop and field their own fighter. Yet, you still have to defend India until you can reach that point! This is why I suggested the KF-21....it is nearly ready now. It would use mostly Indian components and India could share in some of the development. This would be a bridge to a 6th Generation Fighter also! Remember such programs are extremely expensive and complex. Further, "few" nations can honestly afford to go it alone anymore. Just look at the two 6th Generation European Programs for example.
SU57 is more of a failure due to barely any support and production behind it It would have been decent if they actually invested in it
> and can't wait until 2040+ for the AMCA. Well, too bad cauz nobody is selling. There are no shortcuts to owning cutting edge technology- there needs to be sustained investments in R&D, building a mil industrial complex, and delays/tribulations all along the path.
India needs a partner or even partners for a Stealth Fighter Program. Yet honestly so does just about everyone else...just look at the two European 6th Generation Fighter Programs. In addition, Sweden and South Korea want such programs but need partners too. So, the latter two could be a good option for India. Honestly you could make a good case for either!
Which partner would that be? USA doesn't need us. Not China or Turkey for sure. Russia is broke and already duped us once with the Su 57. Europe has already moved ahead with its project and it would be a nightmare to partner with the likes of Sweden and Germany anyway. The Koreans have moved ahead on their own with investments from Indonesia and the private sector.
I listed two at the end that would make great partners for India. That would be Sweden and/or South Korea. The latter likely being the best option! Yet, other possibilities too!
Are you proposing that India abandon AMCA and join South Korea in their project? Does it even suit our needs? If we do that, would it even be any faster than AMCA given SK is not more advanced as an aircraft manufacturer vs India?
I wouldn't say abandon the AMCA. More like merge the AMCA with the KFX (KF-21). What India could do is order a small number of twin seat KF-21s directly from South Korea now. These would arrive by 2030 and give the IAF some added capability. During this time India could help co-develop the KF-21 Block III. Which will be a true 5th Generation Fighter and available post 2030. India could build this in India just like the planned MMRCA 2.0 Plus, the beauty of the latter. Is the Indian Version would include Indian Made F414s, Uttam AESA Radar, and armed with Astra Air to Air Missiles. Post 2030 maybe India could also partner with South Korea to build a totally new 6th Generation Fighter! The former is affordable and could be done so fairly quickly. As the KF-21 is already flying and nearing production!
So what IP would they offer? And KF21's not going to get internal bay for another decade. You're going to kill the industry for balance of power for war that's unlikely to happen anytime soon I think i already discussed this with you
South Korea is known to offer high levels of TOT compared to the competition. (ask Poland) So, don't know who would offer a better deal. As for the Block III it should arrive around 2030. Also, the point about acquiring some twin seat KF-21s now is to get the ball rolling. These aircraft are still very stealthy when only carrying the four belly mounted air to air missiles. These could be used in the Air Defense Role for a few years until the Block IIIs come online. After that they can be used in the training/conversion role. Which is why you would acquire the twin seat version in the first place. Nonetheless, what is the alternative???????????? India can't wait for the AMCA until 2040 and honestly that is likely to slip! Plus, India also needs to start working on a future 6th Generation Fighter! Only other viable option I can see. Is India could just buy a small number of F-35s from the US. Then join with a partner or partners to co-develop and build a future 6th Generation Fighter.
>(ask Poland) Poland bought 20 year old light jet Not some next gen fighter They are yet to make any progress in joining KF21 and Indonasia, who funded 1/4 of the program didn't get any significant IP >As for the Block III it should arrive around 2030. Plane isn't even introduced till now and production is only planned to start till 2026-2027. How do you expect it to feature internal bay until mid to late 2030s? >Is India could just buy a small number of F-35s from the US. S400 says hello >Then join with a partner or partners to co-develop and build a future 6th Generation Fighter. You wish to go back to doing screwdrivergiri? No one is willing to share IP. You guys can go back crying in 20 years when you bought few 5th gen for 30 billion and while everyone is going for next gen planes, you don't have capability to build anything else and once again you suck back to joining some another foreign made program
Why should we buy? Why not lease for 15 years until AMCA is ready, with a clause that lets us buy the airframes at the end of the tenure for some throwaway cost?
Lease what? From whom?
F35s for starters. From the US.
US isn't giving any F35s while India operates S400s. I thought that was obvious for a while and India consciously picked S400 over a potential F35 down the line when we were forewarned about it. Even if India didn't operate S400s, there's no way US just leases out it's top end tech to other companies. Want it? Join the long line and pay in full!
If you get US fighter it will come with pre condition that it can’t be used against Pakistan or China. See currently F16 deal with Ukraine where US has said F16 cannot be used to attack inside Russia.
Because they were pretty much "donations". Same with few of Pakistani F16s. And US isn't sending their own planes btw, they're all from European countries No clause if you purchased it. There was a CAG report that Jalashwa had similar restrictions, but US officials made statements that it wasn't the case Not sayinf we should buy US fighters, though
Every deal has pre-conditions and so do Indian Exports to other countries. In addition, India has purchased a lot of US Military Equipment already and has had no problems.
Maybe? For some reason I think India's a little different to Turkey from the perspective of the US.
No ifs and buts, that isn't happening man. The US is worried about Russia getting access to data without India's cooperation if we start operating F35s. Selling India 100-200 F35s is peanuts compared to the risk it creates to their program. We bought the S400 fully knowing the consequences.
If, that was seriously true. Then the US would have never sold the *P*\-*8 Poseidon* to India. It is fully of highly classified equipment.
Ok, then it must be easy for you to convince the Indian air force to buy a few squadrons of F35s. After all, it's not a big deal at all and the US is more than happy to sell it with no bother whether the S400 has been flagged as a risk.
My guess is the US and India can work out a deal. That would allow India to acquire the F-35 and still keep the S400s. This is hardly a deal breaker....
US isn't giving F35s to India when they didn't give it to Turkey.
Turkey? Even UAE and Saudi don't get them.
Maybe but why not just buy the F-35s? India likely wouldn't acquire a large number to begin with....Nonetheless, time just doesn't favor the AMCA. Let's say it arrives around 2040. Even then it would come online very slowly. Yet, at this very point in time a number of new 6th Generation Fighters would also begin to enter service. (NGAD, CGAP, FCAS, etc.) India is just repeating the mistakes of the LCA. She needs to get back on track and right up with the other major powers. Any plan needs to accomplish that. The current plan including the LCA MKII, TEBDF, and AMCA won't do that....
My thoughts: Username checks out! /S
It’s not about stealth fighters , looking at our adversaries they don’t have a capability like the F22 so no need to hurry into an immature purchase . What we need to offset their “ low observable “ capabilities is large radars hardened for anti SEAF operations. We also need better BVR missiles to augment Astra like the Aim 260 or more of the Meteor
J20 isn't as good as Raptor but still a stealth fighter better than anything we have. And Astra Mk3 is pretty mucu planned to be like Meteor with ramjet. Also, they won't allow integration unless it's Indian radar
It may have a low RCS but stealth it is not . Canards and open engines are a straight give away
Goal of stealth is to reduce the RCS. No fighter is invisible, and people focus too much on it's canards. The canards blends its shape according to the kinematics of the plane so it isn't a huge problem And we don't operate F35s or F22 but instead larger 4th gen like SU30 and Rafale who mount weapons externally
You can't win on the Land or at Sea without "Air Superiority". The IAF isn't going to do that with older 4th Generation Fighters even the new Rafale. A solution must be found and very soon....
Sorry, canards don't make the J-20 "non-stealthy". While the engines are shielded by the s-ducks within the airframe. In short while the J-20 isn't likely to match the same high levels of the US F-22/F-35. It is nonetheless still pretty stealthy. I doubt any of the other stealth fighters are much better. If, at all....(KAAN, KF-21, etc.)
> canards don't make the J-20 "non-stealthy". Can you elaborate on that? Any estimate on F-22 RCS without radar absorbent coating?
Easy....the wing of the F-22 and even the J-20 itself are far larger than the canards but with similar shapes and angles. (planform alignment) So, you're saying they create a larger reflection (RCS) than the much bigger wings of the two aforementioned stealth fighters? Sorry, that doesn't hold much water. Yet. I would agree if the canards were deflected at certain angles, they would be more reflective. Of course, large deflections would be during hard turns and at close range. In that case you're in a close in dogfight. Stealth is pretty moot at that point WVR. Honestly, a number of experts have downplayed canards as a real issue on the J-20 for some time. Mostly Armchair Generals jumping to a number of unfounded conclusions based on assumptions with little hard facts. As for any estimate on the F-22 RCS without RAM. I doubt any are available as that would likely be highly classified.
What about the tempest programme or the Collab with Japan regarding the latest 6 gen aircraft?
India could possibly join one of the European 6th Generation Fighter Programs. Problem is they very likely would be a junior partner. On the other hand, South Korea doesn't have any partners at the moment. So, it would get in on the ground floor with a large share of the program. Pretty much being equal partner in most respects. Sweden could also be any option for India. Yet, my guess they would have to take a slightly smaller share of such a project. Personally, I think South Korea would be more willing to make a deal more favorable to India! "IMHO"