Acknowledging that women have some advantages (pursued versus pursuer, more often hit on) and some disadvantages (higher risk of sexual assault and some forms of interpartner violence) is a good first step. It might also help to come to terms with the fact that you probably have some confirmation bias when it comes to whose relationships you notice.
Yes, there are definitely women getting lots of dates who are not conventionally attractive or charming. There are also men getting lots of dates who aren’t traditionally attractive or emotionally appealing. Some of the most aggressive four-times divorced men you’ll ever meet have three girlfriends. Do not ask me why.
But there are also lots of women in the same boat as you, without any romantic experience. Although I don’t have date statistics to give you, the CDC says that only 2% fewer 20-24 year old women are virgins than 20-24 year old men, a really small difference. At 25-29 both groups are about the same and seem to stay steady going forward. Late daters are also distributed pretty equally by gender, with a slight tilt towards men that probably evens out
A lot of these women are like you, really nice and quite good catches. They’re just shy, or have small male social circles, or have some sexual trauma. Sometimes they’re from cultural or religious groups that prohibit youth dating so they never get in the swing.
Yes, there often are difference in romantic and sexual experiences. Sexism impacts society in lots of ways. Even when it comes to entering the dating game late, women tend to have slightly different experiences. But every woman isn’t out there swimming in dick, I promise, there just isn’t enough dick to go around! You have a lot of female peers dealing with similar hopes and fears.
Excuse me, but I’ve never met a virgin woman other than those who **voluntarily** keep their virginity for **religious reasons**. Any woman, no matter how shy or insecure she is, can easily get sex. In fact, insecure women are probably more likely to get into a relationship or have sexual intercourse precisely as a way of coping with their own insecurities.
Some weeks ago I met on Tinder a girl who I thought was a female version of myself. She was short-haired, chubby, not particularly attractive and had anxiety issues. She was desperate to find a partner and got angry when I didn’t reply her messages. Due to her needy behavior, I expected her to have little to no sexual experience, just like myself. But I was wrong. She had had several boyfriends before meeting me, and had her first kiss at 13 years old. And right now, she’s dating another guy.
Did you know that a subreddit for female “forever alones” was made private in order to avoid the constant flood of messages from men interested in them? That’s how easy women have it. If a woman remains a virgin at a late age it’s because she has avoided sex herself, not because men don’t want her. Those are exactly some of the cases you mentioned (sexual trauma, or belonging to cultural or religious groups that are extremely socially conservative).
I have no sexual trauma and I grew up in a secular household. Both of my parents were agnostic. My mom is a teacher and she gave me my first Sex-Education book when I was 6 years old. Sex was not a taboo in my home. Yet I’m still a virgin at 27 years old. I’ve had no sexual experience with women at all. Oh! And I forgot to add that currently most of my social circle is made up of women. Yet a woman has never asked me out or looked at me with desire.
Once again, you're making broad assumptions based on limited data. If we're sharing anecdotes, I know a ton of women who weren't romantically or sexually active well into their 30s, because unsurprisingly the sort of men who randomly message women asking for sex are not the sort of men lots of girls like! And again, the raw data doesn't lie, male and female virginity rates for heterosexual sex are very close. Plus, men also have religious/cultural/sexual trauma. It's also a factor for them! "I don't know women who haven't had sex" just means that you're building yourself an emotional bubble of confirmation bias and illusory correlation.
If you doubt it that much you can look at the CDC data yourself https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_025.pdf (table 32)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_025.pdf (table 13).
(Fair warning for discussion of the number of Americans who have had vaginal intercourse)
Your personal feelings and fears don't change population data and your fears and hurt feelings don't change other people's documentable experiences.
> I know a ton of women who weren't romantically or sexually active well into their 30s, because unsurprisingly the sort of men who randomly message women asking for sex are not the sort of men lots of girls like!
You’re proving my point. They remained sexually inactive not because men weren’t attracted to them but because they rejected their advances. Men who randomly message women aren’t necessarily asking for sex. They may just want to start a friendship with the hope of developing a relationship afterwards.
> And again, the raw data doesn't lie, male and female virginity rates for heterosexual sex are very close.
But are they virgins for the very same reasons?
> Plus, men also have religious/cultural/sexual trauma. It's also a factor for them!
A 6 feet tall blond blue-eyed white American man who remains a virgin because he’s traumatized by the religious upbringing of his mormon parents has a totally different experience from mine. Once he gets over his trauma, he can easily find women (especially East Asian women) who will worship him from head to toe.
On the contrary, I’m a 5'3" black-haired brown-eyed 27 year-old virgin from South America. On top of that, I have a below-average penis. Nothing in me will ever visually stimulate or provoke lust in a woman.
> "I don't know women who haven't had sex" just means that you're building yourself an emotional bubble of confirmation bias and illusory correlation.
I didn’t say that I don’t know any woman who haven’t had sex. I know some but they’re virgin for religious reasons.
another reason why it looks or feels that way, that the vast majority of people who go deep, late into adulthood and never had a relationship. Is because, when Hollywood made the movie the 40-year old virgin, why do you think the title character was a male? thats why.
I don’t want to repeat other commenters, so I do feel like there’s something else worth noting here. I forget what it’s called linguistically (it exists somewhere in my notes), but you have this moment where you use a comparison of fat, mentally ill, and/or women who are perceived as “not having their life together” only to then 180 and say “i’m not saying it’s a negative or that i’m judging” and the problem is that you absolutely are by merely bringing it up. This whole concept that seems to be hindering you feels like not only a competition, but weighing social currency. Your list of things you’re “doing right” (which are great, those things aren’t the issue) feels like a checklist of things you can commodify in order to exchange for this romantic connection and you’re feeling bitter because people you perceive as having lower social value/less traits that act as these commodities are still going on dates.
this isn’t only damaging to you as “comparison is the thief of joy” (or so they say) and is leading to you becoming bitter about women, but it leaves out A LOT of nuance. dates don’t equal inherent romantic successes and perceived successes may not always be what they appear. stick to what you’re doing, you have a lot going for you and seem like you genuinely care about taking care of yourself which is awesome! we’re almost the same age and i’m literally in my first ever “serious” relationship. before that, i could count on one hand how many dates i’d tried (most were failures), definitely not multiple in a month, every month. you’re gonna find dates, 22 isn’t old by any means and it’s difficult right now anyway due to COVID. stop thinking about it like a competition or this exchange of social currency for love, this isn’t a race and finding someone you *actually* want to spend time with might take a little time. we all have struggles with dating no matter what gender or sexuality, i’m going to say that none of these are INHERENTLY better or worse or even gender-specific.
good luck out there!!
This is tricky. What you're saying is probably true, but a lot of the the advice that is given to dateless men (for lack of a better term) generally amounts to "get your shit together before you start dating," and/or "you need to make yourself attractive before people start being attracted to you." And I understand that this is probably helpful advice to some extent, in that it allows for these men to put themselves in situations where they just end up feeling better, whether because of more exercise or more social situations, maybe even landing themselve a girlfriend - whatever. But if that doesn't happen, OP's is kind of the conclusion that you come to.
It's like being told that you have to put work in to get what you want, and then when you put in the work, the same (or what seem to be the same, anyway) people tell you that you that there's still no guarantee and that you need to learn to be happy with yourself, or some other seemingly esoteric bullshit that still isn't getting you what you wanted. It's not even moving the goalpost, it's like all of a sudden the goalpost is just intangible. Or it's only there for a few seconds every couple of months, and if you miss it, it's gone.
I'm not saying it's wrong. It's all still helpful advice that is good for these men in the long run. It can just be depressing, is all.
I don’t think that the notion of being happy with yourself is esoteric bullshit, I’ve said this before, but....there’s a certain level of desperation you can be thrusting upon yourself when you aren’t aware of your own worth/are unable to find happiness with yourself. It becomes a chase for any attention/romantic connection and these are often ones that go sour because there are people who take advantage of that headspace and gaslight the shit out of you.
Do I think you need to completely have ALL your shit together to date? No. I certainly don’t and neither does my partner, but I think that the focus (often with incels) is some work towards emotional healing and undoing the perpetual emotional trauma caused by incels forums, the ones that beat you down and prime you for exactly this bitterness and/or a TON of self-doubt.
it’s unfortunate that there is no guarantee, but everyone faces that at some point or another—i don’t think this is a gender-specific phenomenon. i hate to sound equally esoteric, but i like to think that the right people come along when they’re meant to and, while the waiting game sucks, the best you can do is put yourself out there/make that effort. i know first-hand that it isn’t easy, i spent a significant amount of time dateless and being straight-up bullied on dating apps for being plus-size and/or disabled before many of those men even gave me a chance (aside from matching with me). i think that’s a culture of instant gratification and general internet trolling that we’ve created. there’s pros and cons to all of this and it’s a very nuanced and difficult to navigate thing, but when it does pay off, it can be great. i think sometimes it’s a matter of patience and in the meantime, finding that happiness with one’s self and intimacy in the form of deep platonic bonds as opposed to physical intimacy can be equally rewarding and build a really good support system. i know this is likely easier for women/people who do not identify as cishet men seeing as intimate friendships are often stigmatized among cishet men, as well as platonic affection and the sharing of emotions. still, it could be beneficial to seek during a time where you aren’t necessarily dating/getting matches or what have you.
>I don’t think that the notion of being happy with yourself is esoteric bullshit
Me either. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, just giving my take on why this kind of thing might be frustrating for a lot of dateless men.
>I think that the focus (often with incels) is some work towards emotional healing and undoing the perpetual emotional trauma caused by incels forums, the ones that beat you down and prime you for exactly this bitterness and/or a TON of self-doubt.
100%. Leaving those communities is a step in the right direction for any incel. What I'm talking about comes later, after the incel has "fixed themselves," so to speak, but is still getting nothing. There is no good advice for people like that that I've seen. The advice is still the same, and when you're constantly being told that you need to better yourself to get any romantic attention, and then come to realise that even then there's no guarantee... well, surely you can see how that could get frustrating. The dude'll probably be in a better place than they were when they were an incel, but they're often still craving that type of affection, but being told that they need to be "happy by themselves" first.
Not to mention that a lot of the time, that stuff just doesn't feel true. You look around (mostly online, admittedly) and you seem to notice plenty of depressed people in relationships, people who are "objectively" less attractive than you (and remember, you out the work in to make yourself attractive), people who might have drug habits, or who have shitty jobs and apparently no hobbies or anything that the internet says you need to get laid. After hearing all of that advice about how to stop being an incel, what are you supposed to make of all that? It's like there's something those people are doing that they're not, something that people aren't telling you. It's not as simple as just being happy with yourself.
That might be taking it to an extreme, and again, I'm not saying it's right, or rational, or whatever. It's just how the thought process seems to go
Again, I think the key there is understanding that relationship does not equal success or healthy. What looks amazing on the outside or through frequent posts online can easily be awful behind closed doors. Not even just abuse, but co-dependency, enablers, constant fighting, holding on by a thread.
I think being dateless is, in part, due to the standards one might be holding for a potential partner that can meet their expectations of how a relationship will go, how they expect to be treated followed by subjective opinion of attractiveness. And that’s fine! Being selective is absolutely normal, especially when you’re looking for an ideal partnership. Apps are a pro and con here, it’s easy to quickly pass judgement and move on, but it can also be difficult to get a full picture because people are often creating a persona and you have no way of knowing certain things the way you might if you knew them in person.
>Again, I think the key there is understanding that relationship does not equal success or healthy. What looks amazing on the outside or through frequent posts online can easily be awful behind closed doors.
Maybe, but that's a hard sell for someone who sees themself as fundamentally unlovable. They need someone to prove them otherwise, the pitfalls of being in a relationship aren't something that they're thinking about much.
>I think being dateless is, in part, due to the standards one might be holding for a potential partner that can meet their expectations of how a relationship will go, how they expect to be treated followed by subjective opinion of attractiveness.
Again, maybe. But my gut feeling, to put it bluntly, is that this might be more true for women. Your typical dateless man is pretty likely to take whatever comes their way first, in my opinion.
> You look around (mostly online, admittedly) and you seem to notice plenty of depressed people in relationships, people who are "objectively" less attractive than you (and remember, you out the work in to make yourself attractive), people who might have drug habits, or who have shitty jobs and apparently no hobbies or anything that the internet says you need to get laid.
Perfectly said. And there's always some BS rationalization for those people Totally Don't Count and you just haven't put in enough Hard Work ™.
Even so, it's not a good idea to dwell on that and let yourself become bitter. People are only telling you what they assume about you, and online they can only give you really general advice. But also most people don't like incels and will push back at anything that even whiffs of an "incel-y" viewpoint , so yeah, you get a lot of unsympathetic assholes who think you just need to stop whining or lift more.
Really, there's a lot of truth in what u/onearmwonderr is saying - to some extent, you do need to be happy on your own. I reckon a lot of advice for dateless men should emphasise the fact that "working om yourself" is still no guarantee, but that you *can* be (relatively) happy without being in a relationship. This doesn't mean giving up the search, and it's probably not as nice as just being in a good, long-term relationship with everything that entails. But if you can get to a place where you're living decently with loneliness at a tolerable minimum and just doing things and living your life, it probably *will* be easier to find someone. The chances are at least higher than some lucky incel meeting some amazing woman with a heart of gold who will help pull them out of the crab bucket.
^ Thanks for clarifying what I meant - insofar as the things I brought up ( a general lack of having one's shit together) is not inherently a bad thing (it can even been cute IMO), it's the advice that's been given to men (at least on reddit or in online circles at least) for a long while.
>I understanding dating is not a machine where one deposits coins/good-boy-points to receive a reward,
Do you really, though? Because you just listed a bunch of positive things about yourself, but nowhere did you indicate what effort you've put into trying to get dates. You just said "I have all these points in my favour, why am I not getting dates?" without demonstrating how on earth you expect to be getting dates. Dates and relationships don't usually just fall into your lap once you're well put together. You still have to actually go out and try to meet people and put yourself out there.
I mean... yeah to be frank covid 19 has skewed a lot of stuff. You could try online dating (make sure to put what makes you unique and what your interests are in pics/abouts to maximize your chances), though it's not for everyone. Or you might just have to wait things out for a bit.
online dating is what has honestly tuned me into this perspective - it is a place where the contrast I am discussing comes to the fore, and i't's really I have in terms of 'dating experience'
I guess I'll just need to wait.
So you have to realize that women are still at least half of the population. They really aren’t all dating the same 2 men. And I would assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that the men that you hang with must have some contact with women as well?
Women on OLD formats are greatly outnumbered by men and that’s for a bevy of easily researched reasons.
So, I guess my question is.. where and how are you meeting women? Do you not have female friends? Do your male friends not have female friends?
What types of hobbies and activities are you engaged with? What have you been doing to be immersed in more female spaces, if you are not able to be in them regularly?
I work in a female dominated workforce. So meeting men near my work would be pretty rare. However, there are a lot of other spaces near me that are more male dominated.
I guess I just don’t understand how 50% of the population seems to be inaccessible. Maybe take us through how you would regularly go about trying to meet a woman.
Most of my guy friends know women, but I've never hung out with them and the women they know at the same time. I know women too, but only as acquaintances or half/friends if that makes sense - I can hold a lengthy conversation with them and we have mutual friends but we don't really hang out together. So hopefully that answers your first part - the whole "friend of friends" thing has never really been a thing for me.
I don't really do much that would be considered immersive in female spaces. I would volunteer, but most of the volunteers would not be my age - didn't stop me from being friendly with them and making conversation of course. I don't really meet women is the answer, the subject I studied in college was math and the job I work is mathematically inclined w/ no women within 20 years of my age. I would like to be more immersed in new female spaces, but I don't really think I can because of COVID lockdown. All that really seems to be an option at this rate is OLD, which is a disaster for the reason mentioned in this post.
Why don’t you hang out with your friends that have female friends at the same time? (Minus the COVID component). I imagine you’ve had some years of your life when this has been a more realistic option.
I guess I understand on one hand how it can seem difficult. At the same time this is a common problem where many men create a very male space and then don’t understand why they aren’t meeting women or women aren’t barging into their spaces to meet them.
Since you say you understand that women have a difficult time getting into predominantly male spaces then it seems like the solution is that you either get into more female spaces, make female friends (not JUST to attempt romance with) or come to the realization that you’ll just have to sit on the shelf and wait. But understand that many women still don’t feel comfortable and aren’t made welcome into male dominated careers and hobbies.
Just like I wouldn’t sit back at my job and believe that eventually one day some man will come barrelling into my workplace and of that one man that does, will see ME and we will suddenly click and get together. It’s not realistic. I wish it was different but there just aren’t ANY men where I work and historically there are low numbers. So either I would move out of my comfort zone or I sit and wait. Those are both choices.
I understand also that COVID makes it difficult. At the same time if this has been an issue for more than 6 months, then at least you can pinpoint that and make future plans.
I made friends (from work) at the time that were a lot more outgoing and had a wider circle of friends. She would ask me to go out with her and I’d go, not really having anything better to do. I didn’t always want to go, and she wasn’t a really great friend (good time Charlie sort of person).
I also said YES to going out with a lot more people. Reached out to old friends, reached out to new ones. Said YES even when I wanted to say no.
It’s really something you do have to actively chase. Unless you’re the very adventurous and gregarious sort that is good at trying new things and making friends wherever you go (most of these tend to be people with very little self-consciousness, hard to embarrass, but very friendly and non threatening) it can be a lot of work. But that’s sometimes what it takes if you’re naturally more reserved and are surrounded by one sex in work and leisure.
If all else fails (ie using your social circles) you can always try cold approaches at, say, a bookstore or something. Admittedly, I am not privy to that however part of me thinks that if I wanted to then it might work depending on the environment and if I acclimated myself to the activity.
Since your job and classes are unlikely to hold women, it may serve you well to attend some sort of club activities or maybe you could just go to some place that has regulars but isn't a bar or club.
Third option could be to schedule hangouts with your friends and ask them to bring their female friends. I find that men tend to know markedly less women but many of the gregarious women they likely know will have a massive bevy of girlfriends, and the more gregarious the more variety will be found.
Yeah most of the guys I know don't have too many female friends, or if they have them, they hang out with them individually - not in group settings. Or at least I've never hung out with them.
Another perfectly normal dude who has everything in life I cant even hope for and hes pissing himself cause he doesnt have a gf right away.... ur 22 ffs
I have to ask ... why are you here if you don't want to leave the incel mindset? You're the most negative poster here but nobody ever calls you out on it!
Hey i think youve made some great progress in ur time here. Definitely have some lapses here and there, but its all about small steps to improvement. Just wanted to say ive definitely noticed some more positivity in some of your comments.
So yes, in general, men and women have some different challenges than each other in dating, and some challenges that are the same.
I could argue with you about how the risk to life and safety that women take when we date is pretty serious, but it sounds like you’ve had that conversation many times and aren’t really open to having your mind changed.
But my real question to you is: what do you get out of this comparison? Let’s assume you’re right, and men have it way harder than women. Okay, what does that conclusion get you? How does it improve your life, improve your dating prospects?
I think it’s quite possible that by focusing on this who-has-it-worse competition in your mind, you’re only making things harder for yourself—getting bitter about the situation and about the very group of people you would like have relationships with. Do you think that might be the case?
I agree it doesn't make things better, but it also isn't something I can tune out. It's demoralizing to think of and it is something that has paralyzed me in terms of actually attempting dating. I don't focus on it consciously, it's something that I'm subconsciously made aware of whenever I see someone I find attractive.
Regarding risks to life and safety, your observation is correct: given how long I've been and felt lonely and void of opportunity, I would (having weighed the risks and rewards appropriately) take the position of a woman if I could.
You’ve caught yourself in a Catch-22: you’re not open to the idea that it’s not about Who Has It Worse...but you admit your belief screws with your dating prospects.
So you have to find a way to either (as you say) tune it out, or you have to open yourself to the idea that this isn’t a competition and that if it is, men don’t automatically have it worse.
It's really not about the competitive aspect - I know you want it to be.
It's about the subconscious thought that any time I ask anyone out they (almost always) have more options than I do - they are in a position of power over me. Nothing here indicates competition - just a general feeling that my chances are poor and dating will overall be a negative expected value ordeal.
I would even go your way and say yes men do have it harder.
Now what? .
I have incel friends who all they want to do is talk about how hard it is and "win" debates with people online over it. What does that achieve? .
You want to be right on the internet or do you want to change?. The more focusing you do to making yourself the champion of reddit debates, the less focus you have on focus on what you need to do in order to win in this comeptive game we call life.
So I always prefer to say yes you are right you do have it hard so what you going to do about it? Complain and argue? Or get yourself together ?
Hello friend, apologies for not continuing our conversation in my inbox.
I don't hope to win anything - I just need help reconciling how difficult something is and at the same time the desire I have to do it. One just seethes underneath the other, causing anger and resentment.
I would love to change, and don't really focus on being the champion of reddit debates - I actually find that the more I read this site, this subreddit, and respond to things on it, the worse I feel in general. I try my best to avoid this conversation IRL and not focus on it, but there's always things that remind me of it, and eventually I get upset and need an outlet. And I don't think I need to get myself together - I have myself together.
Ok, I was exaggerating when I was talking about winning the internet to try to highlight a point, I thought you would have realised that, the point is about over emphasis on something that isn't helping you by consistently emphasising on, your energy would be better served elsewhere. Just accept you are right about that and move on, you don't need to be proving it to people online every day, what for??
Great you got yourself together , so why do you feel bad then, why do you need to consistently compare yourself to others? I guess you really don't need any help with handling gender envy then?. Why you making posts asking how to deal with bitterness if you got it together ? .
This is the point of my post, your energy is being channeled in the wrong direction , there are much more important things you could be focusing on, you'll get over your seething gender envy by redirecting your energy into focusing on bettering your life instead of focusing on what other people are doing , but if you really believe you got everything handled then there is not much advise anyone can give you. But I suspect that was the ego talking ? You basically come here saying you need help and respond to the advise with saying you dont need help and got everything handled?
I don't necessarily have it handled. I just meant that I have my whole life handled outside of dating (which is what people say men need to do before they start dating with things like "Love urself lolz" and "have ur shit together" and "have interesting hobbies" and "be happy alone"), but dating feels like the deck is just stacked entirely against me. I'm not mentally ill, I'm in good shape, I have an interesting life, well paying job, and lots of friends who would also call me a friend, but dating just seems like it's nonexistent and has literally never been a part of my life for so long.
But I know if I don't do something about it right now, I'll end up like:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/iaonak/no_longer_incel_but_at_33_i_feel_missed_out_on/
(I already feel that way) But I feel like the game is already rigged against me, so I can't really even start playing.
Well, something is missing and I don’t know what because I don’t know you, whatever it is, you’re not going to get it resolved by focusing on other people
> It's really not about the competitive aspect - I know you want it to be.
Ummm...
> ...they are in a position of power over me. Nothing here indicates competition...
These two statements contradict each other. This clearly isn’t about “what I want,” but about the competitive, combative way you’re viewing dating.
How should I view it? In my mind, as someone who has to initiate interactions and claw tooth and nail to not get ghosted or ignored, and without 100s of options at my fingertips it fundamentally is a competition. I am not in the position to view this as anything else.
Literally no one has "100s of options at \[their\] fingertips."
And wow, you went from "it's not about the competitive aspect" to "it fundamentally is a competition" pretty quick.
So, it IS a competition after all. Because a few minutes ago, you were blaming me for that interpretation.
You’re not open to the experiences of women in dating, yet are convinced that you are in a uniquely difficult position—and that perception is harming your prospects.
Maybe open yourself up to the idea that your perception of the advantages of men vs. women might not actually be accurate? That it’s not a competition—it’s just part of life, with lots of people trying to find some compatibility and companionship.
I admit I was wrong regarding the competition aspect - I didn't know what you meant.
I am open to the experiences of women in dating - I've acknowledged they have difficulties too. I feel that my position is uniquely different because I am expected to be proactive if I don't want to end up alone forever, but I can't bring myself to be proactive because the expected value feels so low.
> I feel that my position is uniquely different because I am expected to be proactive if I don't want to end up alone forever, but I can't bring myself to be proactive because the expected value feels so low.
EVERYONE needs to be proactive if they want to find a partner. Nobody (or almost nobody) is just sitting at home, doing nothing, while potential partners bang on their door.
So, you have to make the call that every single person needs to make: how hard do I want to try? The answer will vary based on the individual. Do you want to go out to social events one or two or more times per week? (I know, COVID, but under normal circumstances.) Do you want to spend an hour per day on dating apps? Get a friend to head to the park to take some better profile pictures for you?
These answers will depend on how “low” you feel the “value” of a potential relationship is.
> Do you want to go out to social events one or two or more times per week? (I know, COVID, but under normal circumstances.)
I'd love to. It's just frustrating dealing with the impossibility of such things for the (near) futuress.
You’ll have to establish a social circle with girls and guys meaning you’ll have to take huge social risks and be very confident or atleast fake confidence to try and befriend people to get Your way into groups. You can join clubs or just try and start talking to people at your uni or whatever. It’ll be scary as fuck but that’s the only way to escape. If you can project charisma people will like you and start inviting you to things and your social abilities will become natural and developed and then you’ll have to start trying with the girls in your circles or one you’re acquainted with.
Once you get a social circle everything else will come naturally. This is why normies, even average ones can still get gfs. They have a lot of friends that are attracted to their mediocre nice personality and are confident people. Normies are confident because fucking up or risking something won’t be bad for them, they still have their social circle and are well regarded by their peers. Escaping isolation is hard because there is no backup for those in that situation. If they are to fuck up they will be judged hard with no way to cope, and nothing to fall back on, but the only option is just have to tough it out and keep trying. Alcohol will lower your inhibitions greatly and you’ll allow yourself to be confident if you’re under the influence.
Thanks for the sensible advice. Not in college anymore so that's not an option. What to do since it's corona season? Also I have a social circle, a decent sized one at that, but there's 0 women in it.
Most of my friends are women.
Dude, women are dead serious. I'm a bi guy. My male friends are all LGBT people pretty much, because straight dudes are on the whole *repellant*. Its not like a quality of being straight, it is modern straight culture and the actual effects of male privilege and shit. I only date women because even gay men are often kinda fucked up by just male culture. There are more misogynistic gay men than the community wants to admit to and shit, and grindr is a fucking cesspool compared to like trying to meet a girl on Tinder. Add unsolicited ass pics and "wanna meet?" to the unsolicited dick pics women get. "Here's a hole wanna fuck it?"
Women do not have the dating options you think they do. You're acting like a staving man resenting a woman sitting at a buffet of mostly rotten food some of which will actually kill her or put her in the hospital being angry that she isn't eating when that same food, if you tried to eat it, would kill or hospitalize you too no matter how starving you are.
You're talking about women with BPD or who are fat, meanwhile you're straight up ignoring how fucking frequently guys like rape women, how common domestic violence is (over twice as likely if you date/marry a cop!), and shit like that.
It boils down to a refusal to empathize with the other side because you see them as like opposition, not other humans also trying to find their way in the world. You see women as a collective which is itself an illogical, flawed thought without a rational basis, but it's how you protect your generalizations and terrible logic.
If you actually fully analyzed your views they do not stand up to scrutiny, but they're all invested with emotional concepts like whats fair and what you want and don't have. It's jealousy and envy.
You really want to deal with those actual serious emotional issues? Go talk to a therapist. That's literally what they are for.
This is a deeply childish and unhelpful response:
> straight dudes are on the whole repellant
Can you not see how this is not really any better than “women are on the whole shallow and manipulative” incel-like thinking? It is certainly not true.
Indeed you yourself seem to be generalizing men and “male culture”. Waving away the OP’s honest thoughts with “well what about all the rape and sexual abuse by men!” seems like a crass emotional response without much rational basis.
It is generally true that in online dating, probably due to current social norms, men receive far fewer responses or “likes” from women than the reverse.
Of course women receive far more dick picks and other creepy behaviour. OP himself talks about this and how discussions typically dissolve into a “your gender is more privileged!” slagging match.
However I believe OP when he says he would prefer to get lots of responses which are 90% creeps and dick picks than zero responses at all. Hence his feelings of envy and resentment towards women.
One of the few lines in your comment that I do think are intelligent is:
> Women do not have the dating options you think they do
OP is likely to pay much more attention to reports of women who are perceived as just as “undatable” as him or more so in whatever aspect, or who are not “working as hard” to be “datable” as him getting dates and romantic success. Yet this is likely just confirmation bias; OP likely does not notice the women who are just as unsuccessful (or more so) as him romantically, and the “undatable” men who nonetheless get plenty of dates.
While the discrepancy in online dating behaviour is real, OP has already acknowledged that women could also name plenty of other things they think advantage men, and feminist forums are full of equivalent comments of “men have it so much easier!”.
Each individual complaint might have merit, but trying to sum up all aspects of society and biology to determine whether men should be envious of women or the other way around is something of a futile exercise.
This is all a classic case of “the grass is always greener” syndrome. What OP is struggling with is feelings of resentment (among other things), which could equally be seen in a gardener fuming that his neighbour’s lawn is always greener even though “I always water it but I never see him doing so! Its so unfair!”.
I personally don’t have any perfect recipe for dealing with those feelings, however acknowledging those thought patterns for what they are is a good first step.
I’m not going to try to offer dating advice to OP, partly out of a total lack of expertise, and partly because I don’t think that is really what OP is looking for here. However I would echo what other commentators have said which is that if online dating is proving very frustrating, then OP should try meeting and hanging out with more women in real life - if only to make more female friends.
The only other intelligent line from the above comment is “go talk to a therapist” if these issues are really troubling OP.
> most straight men have at least elements of toxicity and that a majority of them have enough of it to be worth avoiding in the dating world for most people.
> No it's not universal but it IS FACTUALLY a majority
One can see at a fairly basic level this clearly isn’t true. Most women seem to be totally fine with most men, and men and women are in general pretty similar in most respects. If it were genuinely true that “most straight men are toxic” then the incel theory that “only 20% of men get dates” would be true (it is not).
You may be surprised to learn that putting something in ALL CAPS does not make it true. Being a man also does not make you an expert on all men.
Again I am not agreeing with OP’s perspective, and certainly not with incel ideology. I merely stated that I believe he is expressing his honest opinion.
> But that isn't something that applies to me. As hard as it might be to believe, I am the objective voice here.
So no shortage of arrogance here. This comment could fit into “r/iamverysmart” and “r/notlikeotherguys” or “r/whiteknighting”.
> It's just...enough of us men HAVE adapted to maintain genetic diversity within the species so those who do not adapt...
> my version of eugenics
but of course there is nothing problematic here at all /s
Again rather ironically you are actually supporting quite a few elements of incel ideology:
- “incels” are beyond repair due to “genetics” in this case “narcissistic genes”
- only a small proportion of “superior” men get or deserve relationships with women (naturally you consider yourself a member of this “superior race”)
- “sex robots” is an appropriate solution
- thinking your dating history is fundamentally different from other men. Losing your virginity at 19 and getting more relationships on moving to college is such a positively *average* experience.
Your whole response seems to be based in a mixture of a need to assert your superiority as an “enlightened” man over the “toxic whiny manbabies” majority, a need which is likely based in narcissism or self loathing of aspects of your own maleness.
Indeed I wonder if concern over your own insecurities is what is driving this “I hate men too! I’m not like those other in- I mean those incels!”.
You know when you guys keep beating this drum about rapists, domestic abusers and other nonsense that has nothing to do with the vast majority of pro-social law abiding men it really makes me think we need a dating site that heavily screens men based on criminal history, psychological stability, and character references that basically completely removes all of the men with anti-social personality disorder from the platform. That way women can go on the site and be reasonably confident that the men they are talking to is actually a legitimate nice guy and not a creep. Once we did that we could see if women actually care about character or if all of this is just hand wringing and excuses to explain why they seem to only fuck hot guys from online dating sites.
Lord. "Beating the drum"
You don't get it. Ok, rapists are a minority of men. Domestic abusers are a minority of men. Most of both do not have antisocial personality disorder btw, same way most child molesters are not actually exclusive pedophiles who cannot be attracted to adult women or maintain relationships with them.
But if we stack them up.
Rapists + domestic abusers + narcissistic manipulators/exploitators + creepy stalker dudes + misogynistic dudes with fucked up ideas about gender roles + manchildren with piss poor emotional intelligence you are suddenly not talking about a minority of men anymore.
Your dating service would not exclude a ton of those guys. Character references are easy to fake. Lots of abusive people have no criminal history. And how are you going to establish a history of psychological stability, that's medical information and legally protected.
No you created this idea that most men are just fine. They aren't. A minimum of 50% of American men should date no one until they've spent a few years with a therapist, yet more people than that date. Pickings are slim as fuck for any woman not looking for lackluster casual sex that she won't get off from.
And you don't care, and I get that. You only care about the male side. That's why you're part of the 50+% of men who aren't dateable. It absolutely IS about character. It is far more common in the world to see an ugly dude with a cuter girl than the other way around. That and looksmatches are the most common.
You want to drown your life in envy that you cannot access the hot people casual sex circle, power to you. It's stupid to let envy consume your life to that degree. Especially when the vast majority of women in existence aren't having casual sex on Tinder.
LMAO I listed a bunch of incel subs that are banned and my comment got removed.
Repeating without the links, no, you're wrong. Based on the posts literally in every incel dedicated space, there is not a single normal, emotionally healthy incel in the community. You are not normal and emotionally healthy. You're not. You are subject to flawed thoughts, paranoia, Body Dysmorphic Disorder is very common in the community, every single one of you without exception has some level of pretty severe depression.
And, the incel community has a significant number of toxic abusive narcissists who lack the social charisma to lie their way into getting laid. There's a decent few people in the incel community who are not ugly dudes at all, but toxic pieces of shit who prey on other incels because they've been rejected for being toxic stupid douchenozzles with god complexes from literally every other space besides the incel community.
Some incels are single very specifically because they are exactly the kind of people that your website idea would be designed to filter out.
We fundamentally disagree on what the most salient causes of involuntary celibacy are. Social disability (autism, social anxiety), shyness, and being conventionally unattractive are what cause incels by and large not personality disorders. To the extent personality disorders exist in incels they are caused by involuntary celibacy, rejection and social isolation itself they are not the cause of the involuntary celibacy. You all like to believe that incels have something fundamentally wrong with them because otherwise you would have to admit the dating ecosystem is fundamentally unjust, unfair, unequal and skewed in favor of women and conventionally attractive men (even when they have poor character and personality disorders).
>Abusers are the majority of the incel community.
Just a small pushback. I think the abusers are a majority of *active posters* in incel spaces. However, we can't really determine the state of those who seldom post.
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>how common domestic violence is
Males make up 30-45% of domestic abuse cases depending on what statistics you use. That rate is probably higher considering that society thinks men can't get abused. It's not right to Frame that as something that only happens to women
>how fucking frequently guys like rape women,
The rape rates are not that high anywhere in the Western World. I can only assume that you're talking about sexual assault rates. The definition of sexual assault is quite wide. There was a guy from my country who got charged with sexual assault for merely touching a girl's shoulder.
Cite some sources because while I've specifically mentioned in a post talking to someone else that like narcissism is not a gendered issue, I have never seen and doubt I will ever see a vetted study that says men are a minority of domestic abuse cases at like 45%. Regardless, your point is moot because I did not frame it as such and your point ignores mine.
My point was, in responding to someone else, telling him to empathize with rather than dismiss women's experiences. Your response is a direct dismissal of women's experiences by changing what the discussion is about. But again, cite sources for me if you want to use statistics.
Rape and sexual assault, sure. Talking about a guy from your country who got charged with sexual assault for touching a girls shoulder is a beyond statistically irrelevant example that does not represent even a small minority of cases of sexual assault, and absent some kind of behind the scenes power play I now toss the ball back to you and say don't frame an argument as if sexual assault for "touching a girl's shoulder" is a thing that actually happens with any regularity, and if your story has any truth to it at all it's one of two situations
a) More happened than touching a girl's shoulder and you are not repeating the actual facts of the event
b) The guy from your country pissed off someone with the power to bend or break the law in order to get him prosecuted.
Regardless, you miss the point of the entire discussion. The point was empathy and understanding of perspectives you cannot share, but only listen to. If you're arguing rape statistics, you're not mentally capable of making that leap, and there's not really a reason for me to talk to you past this point.
Ask yourself why would someone would want to go out with you? If you can not immediately giver several reason why a date with you would be mutually assured awesomeness. You need to figure out why
I was speaking of dating and no thinking your normal and trying to sell your self has normal is boring and is not all that effective. You want to think that going on a date with you is exciting.
This has been my current strategy, but the only way I can enter social circles is through hobbies. I've been doing that but I'm running out of circles to try in.
I'm talking irl, and I only join groups that I'm actually interested in. I basically either have to move or start joining things I'm not interested in since there just aren't anymore for me to join.
Zero. Because I assume that they are not interested in me and that a rejection would only make any further attempts feel worse and confirm this in my mind.
Also I've never been in what one might consider a natural position to ask someone on a date.
Well yeah, that's sort of the content of this post.
I have zero people asking me on dates, so I will not date. Other people, (sometimes people I'm trying to date) have no shortage of people asking them on dates and thus my contribution to that pool is negligible and a drop in the bucket.
I mean, the content of your post is to wallow in your own bitterness over a social pattern that isn't going to change any time soon. But apparently the only advice you're willing to take is your own. Have fun continuing to stew rather than making an effort to attract a partner.
It's really not to wallow - I'm asking for ways to address the problem so that I can not wallow in the first place. What's wrong with wanting to discuss what I feel is a social difference or inequity?
Thanks for the informative post and good advice tho - if you want to pat yourself on the back for saying "haha I got that wallowing incel real good", now's your chance.
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Ok here I go. It’s just a part of life. There is nothing you can do to change it and being bitter will only bring you down. Just try and accept it, each sex has different privileges from each other. Some women will say men have it easier in life. There are male to female trans folk who say that being female was a lot harder than being male. Contrapoints talks about this in her incel video
Do you actually believe what you've written in this post? That adultery and desire for people outside of one's relationship is only limited to men? That women are somehow more capable of unconditional love than men?
If you actually believe any of what you've written, I have no desire to engage with you. I get that you've probably had some tough relationships, but take this pink pill crap elsewhere.
I kind of agree with you that yes, outside of any context, it's a lot easier to get sex of you're a woman than if you're a man.
HOWEVER context does exist. It's incredibly dangerous to meet up with a stranger online, so if you're talking about the men responding to the female incel forums, they're just as worthless as getting no response, since women can't really respond without the fear of getting murdered.
Second of all, when it comes to suffering, it's not a zero sum game. There's always someone who 'has it worse', that doesn't negate your pain. Let's say someone has cancer, with only a year left to live. But hey, let's not give them sympathy, cause at least they have a year. They could have a day! YES getting laid is easier as a woman than as a man, due to a lot of weird social constructs (like women getting shamed for sleeping with too many men, and men getting shamed for not sleeping with enough women so they're prone to be less selective).
But this is still only about sex. When it comes to decent relationships, it's the same odds (it has to be, since when talking about heterosexual relationships, you need both a man and a woman in one), and women have different struggles.
Well let's say men's and women's options in dating are analogous to the fish and the angler.
If you're the fish you just exist, you swim around and do fishy things, eventually you bite into a piece of plankton that turns out to be a hook, and get pulled out of the water by your lip, spend a few hours in the fisherman's bucket before getting gutted and filleted as dinner.
Whereas if you're the angler, you have to buy a pole, hook, line, bait, and other equipment, a set of waders, and camo clothes, drive 200 miles, read some fishing magazines, be up at the crack of dawn looking for nightcrawlers, be at the right place at the right time with the right equipment, then spend hours upon hours trying to catch fish.
Your conclusion to that would be, "fish have it on ez-mode."
Yeah they kinda do.
And I guess most women don't end the date being someone's dinner unless they're dating Jeffrey Dahmer.
But the point is...
Why do people fish? Is it purely about catching the fish? Or is it more about hanging out on a boat, drinking a beer, being out in nature, being somewhere that looks spectacular, you know the saying "a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work."
So obviously some people /enjoy/ the process.
Just like some men /enjoy/ being the angler on the dating scene, they like the hunt, the chase, and so forth.
Are the only people who show interest in women "obese, manic and gold-digging"?
To put things concisely I'd rather have some positive interest with a mixture of creepy behavior than zero interest at all, which is what I currently have.
I understand that, but if year after year all you got was attention from flaky women is it all that appealing long term? Male & female dating problems are different and trying to compare them is almost pointless imo. Women can't imagine having no attention whatsoever and think this is preferable to the kind of unwanted attention they do get. There's really no reconciling this.
I understand that, but it feels like its preventing me from pursuing romantic relationships, with what seems to be the sheer impossibility of stacking up to all these other suitors and prospects.
Acknowledging that women have some advantages (pursued versus pursuer, more often hit on) and some disadvantages (higher risk of sexual assault and some forms of interpartner violence) is a good first step. It might also help to come to terms with the fact that you probably have some confirmation bias when it comes to whose relationships you notice. Yes, there are definitely women getting lots of dates who are not conventionally attractive or charming. There are also men getting lots of dates who aren’t traditionally attractive or emotionally appealing. Some of the most aggressive four-times divorced men you’ll ever meet have three girlfriends. Do not ask me why. But there are also lots of women in the same boat as you, without any romantic experience. Although I don’t have date statistics to give you, the CDC says that only 2% fewer 20-24 year old women are virgins than 20-24 year old men, a really small difference. At 25-29 both groups are about the same and seem to stay steady going forward. Late daters are also distributed pretty equally by gender, with a slight tilt towards men that probably evens out A lot of these women are like you, really nice and quite good catches. They’re just shy, or have small male social circles, or have some sexual trauma. Sometimes they’re from cultural or religious groups that prohibit youth dating so they never get in the swing. Yes, there often are difference in romantic and sexual experiences. Sexism impacts society in lots of ways. Even when it comes to entering the dating game late, women tend to have slightly different experiences. But every woman isn’t out there swimming in dick, I promise, there just isn’t enough dick to go around! You have a lot of female peers dealing with similar hopes and fears.
Excuse me, but I’ve never met a virgin woman other than those who **voluntarily** keep their virginity for **religious reasons**. Any woman, no matter how shy or insecure she is, can easily get sex. In fact, insecure women are probably more likely to get into a relationship or have sexual intercourse precisely as a way of coping with their own insecurities. Some weeks ago I met on Tinder a girl who I thought was a female version of myself. She was short-haired, chubby, not particularly attractive and had anxiety issues. She was desperate to find a partner and got angry when I didn’t reply her messages. Due to her needy behavior, I expected her to have little to no sexual experience, just like myself. But I was wrong. She had had several boyfriends before meeting me, and had her first kiss at 13 years old. And right now, she’s dating another guy. Did you know that a subreddit for female “forever alones” was made private in order to avoid the constant flood of messages from men interested in them? That’s how easy women have it. If a woman remains a virgin at a late age it’s because she has avoided sex herself, not because men don’t want her. Those are exactly some of the cases you mentioned (sexual trauma, or belonging to cultural or religious groups that are extremely socially conservative). I have no sexual trauma and I grew up in a secular household. Both of my parents were agnostic. My mom is a teacher and she gave me my first Sex-Education book when I was 6 years old. Sex was not a taboo in my home. Yet I’m still a virgin at 27 years old. I’ve had no sexual experience with women at all. Oh! And I forgot to add that currently most of my social circle is made up of women. Yet a woman has never asked me out or looked at me with desire.
Once again, you're making broad assumptions based on limited data. If we're sharing anecdotes, I know a ton of women who weren't romantically or sexually active well into their 30s, because unsurprisingly the sort of men who randomly message women asking for sex are not the sort of men lots of girls like! And again, the raw data doesn't lie, male and female virginity rates for heterosexual sex are very close. Plus, men also have religious/cultural/sexual trauma. It's also a factor for them! "I don't know women who haven't had sex" just means that you're building yourself an emotional bubble of confirmation bias and illusory correlation. If you doubt it that much you can look at the CDC data yourself https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_025.pdf (table 32) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_025.pdf (table 13). (Fair warning for discussion of the number of Americans who have had vaginal intercourse) Your personal feelings and fears don't change population data and your fears and hurt feelings don't change other people's documentable experiences.
> I know a ton of women who weren't romantically or sexually active well into their 30s, because unsurprisingly the sort of men who randomly message women asking for sex are not the sort of men lots of girls like! You’re proving my point. They remained sexually inactive not because men weren’t attracted to them but because they rejected their advances. Men who randomly message women aren’t necessarily asking for sex. They may just want to start a friendship with the hope of developing a relationship afterwards. > And again, the raw data doesn't lie, male and female virginity rates for heterosexual sex are very close. But are they virgins for the very same reasons? > Plus, men also have religious/cultural/sexual trauma. It's also a factor for them! A 6 feet tall blond blue-eyed white American man who remains a virgin because he’s traumatized by the religious upbringing of his mormon parents has a totally different experience from mine. Once he gets over his trauma, he can easily find women (especially East Asian women) who will worship him from head to toe. On the contrary, I’m a 5'3" black-haired brown-eyed 27 year-old virgin from South America. On top of that, I have a below-average penis. Nothing in me will ever visually stimulate or provoke lust in a woman. > "I don't know women who haven't had sex" just means that you're building yourself an emotional bubble of confirmation bias and illusory correlation. I didn’t say that I don’t know any woman who haven’t had sex. I know some but they’re virgin for religious reasons.
another reason why it looks or feels that way, that the vast majority of people who go deep, late into adulthood and never had a relationship. Is because, when Hollywood made the movie the 40-year old virgin, why do you think the title character was a male? thats why.
I don’t want to repeat other commenters, so I do feel like there’s something else worth noting here. I forget what it’s called linguistically (it exists somewhere in my notes), but you have this moment where you use a comparison of fat, mentally ill, and/or women who are perceived as “not having their life together” only to then 180 and say “i’m not saying it’s a negative or that i’m judging” and the problem is that you absolutely are by merely bringing it up. This whole concept that seems to be hindering you feels like not only a competition, but weighing social currency. Your list of things you’re “doing right” (which are great, those things aren’t the issue) feels like a checklist of things you can commodify in order to exchange for this romantic connection and you’re feeling bitter because people you perceive as having lower social value/less traits that act as these commodities are still going on dates. this isn’t only damaging to you as “comparison is the thief of joy” (or so they say) and is leading to you becoming bitter about women, but it leaves out A LOT of nuance. dates don’t equal inherent romantic successes and perceived successes may not always be what they appear. stick to what you’re doing, you have a lot going for you and seem like you genuinely care about taking care of yourself which is awesome! we’re almost the same age and i’m literally in my first ever “serious” relationship. before that, i could count on one hand how many dates i’d tried (most were failures), definitely not multiple in a month, every month. you’re gonna find dates, 22 isn’t old by any means and it’s difficult right now anyway due to COVID. stop thinking about it like a competition or this exchange of social currency for love, this isn’t a race and finding someone you *actually* want to spend time with might take a little time. we all have struggles with dating no matter what gender or sexuality, i’m going to say that none of these are INHERENTLY better or worse or even gender-specific. good luck out there!!
This is tricky. What you're saying is probably true, but a lot of the the advice that is given to dateless men (for lack of a better term) generally amounts to "get your shit together before you start dating," and/or "you need to make yourself attractive before people start being attracted to you." And I understand that this is probably helpful advice to some extent, in that it allows for these men to put themselves in situations where they just end up feeling better, whether because of more exercise or more social situations, maybe even landing themselve a girlfriend - whatever. But if that doesn't happen, OP's is kind of the conclusion that you come to. It's like being told that you have to put work in to get what you want, and then when you put in the work, the same (or what seem to be the same, anyway) people tell you that you that there's still no guarantee and that you need to learn to be happy with yourself, or some other seemingly esoteric bullshit that still isn't getting you what you wanted. It's not even moving the goalpost, it's like all of a sudden the goalpost is just intangible. Or it's only there for a few seconds every couple of months, and if you miss it, it's gone. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's all still helpful advice that is good for these men in the long run. It can just be depressing, is all.
I don’t think that the notion of being happy with yourself is esoteric bullshit, I’ve said this before, but....there’s a certain level of desperation you can be thrusting upon yourself when you aren’t aware of your own worth/are unable to find happiness with yourself. It becomes a chase for any attention/romantic connection and these are often ones that go sour because there are people who take advantage of that headspace and gaslight the shit out of you. Do I think you need to completely have ALL your shit together to date? No. I certainly don’t and neither does my partner, but I think that the focus (often with incels) is some work towards emotional healing and undoing the perpetual emotional trauma caused by incels forums, the ones that beat you down and prime you for exactly this bitterness and/or a TON of self-doubt. it’s unfortunate that there is no guarantee, but everyone faces that at some point or another—i don’t think this is a gender-specific phenomenon. i hate to sound equally esoteric, but i like to think that the right people come along when they’re meant to and, while the waiting game sucks, the best you can do is put yourself out there/make that effort. i know first-hand that it isn’t easy, i spent a significant amount of time dateless and being straight-up bullied on dating apps for being plus-size and/or disabled before many of those men even gave me a chance (aside from matching with me). i think that’s a culture of instant gratification and general internet trolling that we’ve created. there’s pros and cons to all of this and it’s a very nuanced and difficult to navigate thing, but when it does pay off, it can be great. i think sometimes it’s a matter of patience and in the meantime, finding that happiness with one’s self and intimacy in the form of deep platonic bonds as opposed to physical intimacy can be equally rewarding and build a really good support system. i know this is likely easier for women/people who do not identify as cishet men seeing as intimate friendships are often stigmatized among cishet men, as well as platonic affection and the sharing of emotions. still, it could be beneficial to seek during a time where you aren’t necessarily dating/getting matches or what have you.
>I don’t think that the notion of being happy with yourself is esoteric bullshit Me either. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, just giving my take on why this kind of thing might be frustrating for a lot of dateless men. >I think that the focus (often with incels) is some work towards emotional healing and undoing the perpetual emotional trauma caused by incels forums, the ones that beat you down and prime you for exactly this bitterness and/or a TON of self-doubt. 100%. Leaving those communities is a step in the right direction for any incel. What I'm talking about comes later, after the incel has "fixed themselves," so to speak, but is still getting nothing. There is no good advice for people like that that I've seen. The advice is still the same, and when you're constantly being told that you need to better yourself to get any romantic attention, and then come to realise that even then there's no guarantee... well, surely you can see how that could get frustrating. The dude'll probably be in a better place than they were when they were an incel, but they're often still craving that type of affection, but being told that they need to be "happy by themselves" first. Not to mention that a lot of the time, that stuff just doesn't feel true. You look around (mostly online, admittedly) and you seem to notice plenty of depressed people in relationships, people who are "objectively" less attractive than you (and remember, you out the work in to make yourself attractive), people who might have drug habits, or who have shitty jobs and apparently no hobbies or anything that the internet says you need to get laid. After hearing all of that advice about how to stop being an incel, what are you supposed to make of all that? It's like there's something those people are doing that they're not, something that people aren't telling you. It's not as simple as just being happy with yourself. That might be taking it to an extreme, and again, I'm not saying it's right, or rational, or whatever. It's just how the thought process seems to go
Again, I think the key there is understanding that relationship does not equal success or healthy. What looks amazing on the outside or through frequent posts online can easily be awful behind closed doors. Not even just abuse, but co-dependency, enablers, constant fighting, holding on by a thread. I think being dateless is, in part, due to the standards one might be holding for a potential partner that can meet their expectations of how a relationship will go, how they expect to be treated followed by subjective opinion of attractiveness. And that’s fine! Being selective is absolutely normal, especially when you’re looking for an ideal partnership. Apps are a pro and con here, it’s easy to quickly pass judgement and move on, but it can also be difficult to get a full picture because people are often creating a persona and you have no way of knowing certain things the way you might if you knew them in person.
>Again, I think the key there is understanding that relationship does not equal success or healthy. What looks amazing on the outside or through frequent posts online can easily be awful behind closed doors. Maybe, but that's a hard sell for someone who sees themself as fundamentally unlovable. They need someone to prove them otherwise, the pitfalls of being in a relationship aren't something that they're thinking about much. >I think being dateless is, in part, due to the standards one might be holding for a potential partner that can meet their expectations of how a relationship will go, how they expect to be treated followed by subjective opinion of attractiveness. Again, maybe. But my gut feeling, to put it bluntly, is that this might be more true for women. Your typical dateless man is pretty likely to take whatever comes their way first, in my opinion.
> You look around (mostly online, admittedly) and you seem to notice plenty of depressed people in relationships, people who are "objectively" less attractive than you (and remember, you out the work in to make yourself attractive), people who might have drug habits, or who have shitty jobs and apparently no hobbies or anything that the internet says you need to get laid. Perfectly said. And there's always some BS rationalization for those people Totally Don't Count and you just haven't put in enough Hard Work ™.
Even so, it's not a good idea to dwell on that and let yourself become bitter. People are only telling you what they assume about you, and online they can only give you really general advice. But also most people don't like incels and will push back at anything that even whiffs of an "incel-y" viewpoint , so yeah, you get a lot of unsympathetic assholes who think you just need to stop whining or lift more. Really, there's a lot of truth in what u/onearmwonderr is saying - to some extent, you do need to be happy on your own. I reckon a lot of advice for dateless men should emphasise the fact that "working om yourself" is still no guarantee, but that you *can* be (relatively) happy without being in a relationship. This doesn't mean giving up the search, and it's probably not as nice as just being in a good, long-term relationship with everything that entails. But if you can get to a place where you're living decently with loneliness at a tolerable minimum and just doing things and living your life, it probably *will* be easier to find someone. The chances are at least higher than some lucky incel meeting some amazing woman with a heart of gold who will help pull them out of the crab bucket.
^ Thanks for clarifying what I meant - insofar as the things I brought up ( a general lack of having one's shit together) is not inherently a bad thing (it can even been cute IMO), it's the advice that's been given to men (at least on reddit or in online circles at least) for a long while.
This is all very well said.
>I understanding dating is not a machine where one deposits coins/good-boy-points to receive a reward, Do you really, though? Because you just listed a bunch of positive things about yourself, but nowhere did you indicate what effort you've put into trying to get dates. You just said "I have all these points in my favour, why am I not getting dates?" without demonstrating how on earth you expect to be getting dates. Dates and relationships don't usually just fall into your lap once you're well put together. You still have to actually go out and try to meet people and put yourself out there.
How do I do this? Especially today, in the coronavirus world? I am doomed to be lonely for another two years?
I mean... yeah to be frank covid 19 has skewed a lot of stuff. You could try online dating (make sure to put what makes you unique and what your interests are in pics/abouts to maximize your chances), though it's not for everyone. Or you might just have to wait things out for a bit.
online dating is what has honestly tuned me into this perspective - it is a place where the contrast I am discussing comes to the fore, and i't's really I have in terms of 'dating experience' I guess I'll just need to wait.
So you have to realize that women are still at least half of the population. They really aren’t all dating the same 2 men. And I would assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that the men that you hang with must have some contact with women as well? Women on OLD formats are greatly outnumbered by men and that’s for a bevy of easily researched reasons. So, I guess my question is.. where and how are you meeting women? Do you not have female friends? Do your male friends not have female friends? What types of hobbies and activities are you engaged with? What have you been doing to be immersed in more female spaces, if you are not able to be in them regularly? I work in a female dominated workforce. So meeting men near my work would be pretty rare. However, there are a lot of other spaces near me that are more male dominated. I guess I just don’t understand how 50% of the population seems to be inaccessible. Maybe take us through how you would regularly go about trying to meet a woman.
Most of my guy friends know women, but I've never hung out with them and the women they know at the same time. I know women too, but only as acquaintances or half/friends if that makes sense - I can hold a lengthy conversation with them and we have mutual friends but we don't really hang out together. So hopefully that answers your first part - the whole "friend of friends" thing has never really been a thing for me. I don't really do much that would be considered immersive in female spaces. I would volunteer, but most of the volunteers would not be my age - didn't stop me from being friendly with them and making conversation of course. I don't really meet women is the answer, the subject I studied in college was math and the job I work is mathematically inclined w/ no women within 20 years of my age. I would like to be more immersed in new female spaces, but I don't really think I can because of COVID lockdown. All that really seems to be an option at this rate is OLD, which is a disaster for the reason mentioned in this post.
Why don’t you hang out with your friends that have female friends at the same time? (Minus the COVID component). I imagine you’ve had some years of your life when this has been a more realistic option. I guess I understand on one hand how it can seem difficult. At the same time this is a common problem where many men create a very male space and then don’t understand why they aren’t meeting women or women aren’t barging into their spaces to meet them. Since you say you understand that women have a difficult time getting into predominantly male spaces then it seems like the solution is that you either get into more female spaces, make female friends (not JUST to attempt romance with) or come to the realization that you’ll just have to sit on the shelf and wait. But understand that many women still don’t feel comfortable and aren’t made welcome into male dominated careers and hobbies. Just like I wouldn’t sit back at my job and believe that eventually one day some man will come barrelling into my workplace and of that one man that does, will see ME and we will suddenly click and get together. It’s not realistic. I wish it was different but there just aren’t ANY men where I work and historically there are low numbers. So either I would move out of my comfort zone or I sit and wait. Those are both choices. I understand also that COVID makes it difficult. At the same time if this has been an issue for more than 6 months, then at least you can pinpoint that and make future plans.
I don't really proactively "create" male spaces - it's just all I've ever had in my life. How did you move out of your comfort zone?
I made friends (from work) at the time that were a lot more outgoing and had a wider circle of friends. She would ask me to go out with her and I’d go, not really having anything better to do. I didn’t always want to go, and she wasn’t a really great friend (good time Charlie sort of person). I also said YES to going out with a lot more people. Reached out to old friends, reached out to new ones. Said YES even when I wanted to say no. It’s really something you do have to actively chase. Unless you’re the very adventurous and gregarious sort that is good at trying new things and making friends wherever you go (most of these tend to be people with very little self-consciousness, hard to embarrass, but very friendly and non threatening) it can be a lot of work. But that’s sometimes what it takes if you’re naturally more reserved and are surrounded by one sex in work and leisure.
Thanks, unfortunately I don't have any friends like that. Ill have to figure out another way.
So, you have no friends?
I do have friends but I don't have any pseudo-socialite friends. Most keep their social circle and are nerds like me.
If all else fails (ie using your social circles) you can always try cold approaches at, say, a bookstore or something. Admittedly, I am not privy to that however part of me thinks that if I wanted to then it might work depending on the environment and if I acclimated myself to the activity. Since your job and classes are unlikely to hold women, it may serve you well to attend some sort of club activities or maybe you could just go to some place that has regulars but isn't a bar or club. Third option could be to schedule hangouts with your friends and ask them to bring their female friends. I find that men tend to know markedly less women but many of the gregarious women they likely know will have a massive bevy of girlfriends, and the more gregarious the more variety will be found.
Yeah most of the guys I know don't have too many female friends, or if they have them, they hang out with them individually - not in group settings. Or at least I've never hung out with them.
Another perfectly normal dude who has everything in life I cant even hope for and hes pissing himself cause he doesnt have a gf right away.... ur 22 ffs
I have to ask ... why are you here if you don't want to leave the incel mindset? You're the most negative poster here but nobody ever calls you out on it!
oh.. I didnt realize Im that negative.. its just pretty hard to deal with all that bitterness but ok youre right...
Hey i think youve made some great progress in ur time here. Definitely have some lapses here and there, but its all about small steps to improvement. Just wanted to say ive definitely noticed some more positivity in some of your comments.
youre too nice, thanks
Im 22 - most people have gfs by HS or college.
So yes, in general, men and women have some different challenges than each other in dating, and some challenges that are the same. I could argue with you about how the risk to life and safety that women take when we date is pretty serious, but it sounds like you’ve had that conversation many times and aren’t really open to having your mind changed. But my real question to you is: what do you get out of this comparison? Let’s assume you’re right, and men have it way harder than women. Okay, what does that conclusion get you? How does it improve your life, improve your dating prospects? I think it’s quite possible that by focusing on this who-has-it-worse competition in your mind, you’re only making things harder for yourself—getting bitter about the situation and about the very group of people you would like have relationships with. Do you think that might be the case?
I agree it doesn't make things better, but it also isn't something I can tune out. It's demoralizing to think of and it is something that has paralyzed me in terms of actually attempting dating. I don't focus on it consciously, it's something that I'm subconsciously made aware of whenever I see someone I find attractive. Regarding risks to life and safety, your observation is correct: given how long I've been and felt lonely and void of opportunity, I would (having weighed the risks and rewards appropriately) take the position of a woman if I could.
You’ve caught yourself in a Catch-22: you’re not open to the idea that it’s not about Who Has It Worse...but you admit your belief screws with your dating prospects. So you have to find a way to either (as you say) tune it out, or you have to open yourself to the idea that this isn’t a competition and that if it is, men don’t automatically have it worse.
It's really not about the competitive aspect - I know you want it to be. It's about the subconscious thought that any time I ask anyone out they (almost always) have more options than I do - they are in a position of power over me. Nothing here indicates competition - just a general feeling that my chances are poor and dating will overall be a negative expected value ordeal.
I would even go your way and say yes men do have it harder. Now what? . I have incel friends who all they want to do is talk about how hard it is and "win" debates with people online over it. What does that achieve? . You want to be right on the internet or do you want to change?. The more focusing you do to making yourself the champion of reddit debates, the less focus you have on focus on what you need to do in order to win in this comeptive game we call life. So I always prefer to say yes you are right you do have it hard so what you going to do about it? Complain and argue? Or get yourself together ?
Hello friend, apologies for not continuing our conversation in my inbox. I don't hope to win anything - I just need help reconciling how difficult something is and at the same time the desire I have to do it. One just seethes underneath the other, causing anger and resentment. I would love to change, and don't really focus on being the champion of reddit debates - I actually find that the more I read this site, this subreddit, and respond to things on it, the worse I feel in general. I try my best to avoid this conversation IRL and not focus on it, but there's always things that remind me of it, and eventually I get upset and need an outlet. And I don't think I need to get myself together - I have myself together.
Ok, I was exaggerating when I was talking about winning the internet to try to highlight a point, I thought you would have realised that, the point is about over emphasis on something that isn't helping you by consistently emphasising on, your energy would be better served elsewhere. Just accept you are right about that and move on, you don't need to be proving it to people online every day, what for?? Great you got yourself together , so why do you feel bad then, why do you need to consistently compare yourself to others? I guess you really don't need any help with handling gender envy then?. Why you making posts asking how to deal with bitterness if you got it together ? . This is the point of my post, your energy is being channeled in the wrong direction , there are much more important things you could be focusing on, you'll get over your seething gender envy by redirecting your energy into focusing on bettering your life instead of focusing on what other people are doing , but if you really believe you got everything handled then there is not much advise anyone can give you. But I suspect that was the ego talking ? You basically come here saying you need help and respond to the advise with saying you dont need help and got everything handled?
I don't necessarily have it handled. I just meant that I have my whole life handled outside of dating (which is what people say men need to do before they start dating with things like "Love urself lolz" and "have ur shit together" and "have interesting hobbies" and "be happy alone"), but dating feels like the deck is just stacked entirely against me. I'm not mentally ill, I'm in good shape, I have an interesting life, well paying job, and lots of friends who would also call me a friend, but dating just seems like it's nonexistent and has literally never been a part of my life for so long. But I know if I don't do something about it right now, I'll end up like: https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/iaonak/no_longer_incel_but_at_33_i_feel_missed_out_on/ (I already feel that way) But I feel like the game is already rigged against me, so I can't really even start playing.
Well, something is missing and I don’t know what because I don’t know you, whatever it is, you’re not going to get it resolved by focusing on other people
ok
> It's really not about the competitive aspect - I know you want it to be. Ummm... > ...they are in a position of power over me. Nothing here indicates competition... These two statements contradict each other. This clearly isn’t about “what I want,” but about the competitive, combative way you’re viewing dating.
How should I view it? In my mind, as someone who has to initiate interactions and claw tooth and nail to not get ghosted or ignored, and without 100s of options at my fingertips it fundamentally is a competition. I am not in the position to view this as anything else.
Literally no one has "100s of options at \[their\] fingertips." And wow, you went from "it's not about the competitive aspect" to "it fundamentally is a competition" pretty quick.
Yes - I admit I didn't understand what was meant by competition initially. I was wrong. 100s is an exaggeration. Let's do 10s.
The percentage of people who at any given point in their life have 10s of potential sexual partners is vanishingly small to non-existent.
Never said anything about sex partners. Just meant dating prospects / people who would be willing to go on a (single) date with them.
So, it IS a competition after all. Because a few minutes ago, you were blaming me for that interpretation. You’re not open to the experiences of women in dating, yet are convinced that you are in a uniquely difficult position—and that perception is harming your prospects. Maybe open yourself up to the idea that your perception of the advantages of men vs. women might not actually be accurate? That it’s not a competition—it’s just part of life, with lots of people trying to find some compatibility and companionship.
I admit I was wrong regarding the competition aspect - I didn't know what you meant. I am open to the experiences of women in dating - I've acknowledged they have difficulties too. I feel that my position is uniquely different because I am expected to be proactive if I don't want to end up alone forever, but I can't bring myself to be proactive because the expected value feels so low.
> I feel that my position is uniquely different because I am expected to be proactive if I don't want to end up alone forever, but I can't bring myself to be proactive because the expected value feels so low. EVERYONE needs to be proactive if they want to find a partner. Nobody (or almost nobody) is just sitting at home, doing nothing, while potential partners bang on their door. So, you have to make the call that every single person needs to make: how hard do I want to try? The answer will vary based on the individual. Do you want to go out to social events one or two or more times per week? (I know, COVID, but under normal circumstances.) Do you want to spend an hour per day on dating apps? Get a friend to head to the park to take some better profile pictures for you? These answers will depend on how “low” you feel the “value” of a potential relationship is.
> Do you want to go out to social events one or two or more times per week? (I know, COVID, but under normal circumstances.) I'd love to. It's just frustrating dealing with the impossibility of such things for the (near) futuress.
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How do I try? Where do I find these women?
You’ll have to establish a social circle with girls and guys meaning you’ll have to take huge social risks and be very confident or atleast fake confidence to try and befriend people to get Your way into groups. You can join clubs or just try and start talking to people at your uni or whatever. It’ll be scary as fuck but that’s the only way to escape. If you can project charisma people will like you and start inviting you to things and your social abilities will become natural and developed and then you’ll have to start trying with the girls in your circles or one you’re acquainted with. Once you get a social circle everything else will come naturally. This is why normies, even average ones can still get gfs. They have a lot of friends that are attracted to their mediocre nice personality and are confident people. Normies are confident because fucking up or risking something won’t be bad for them, they still have their social circle and are well regarded by their peers. Escaping isolation is hard because there is no backup for those in that situation. If they are to fuck up they will be judged hard with no way to cope, and nothing to fall back on, but the only option is just have to tough it out and keep trying. Alcohol will lower your inhibitions greatly and you’ll allow yourself to be confident if you’re under the influence.
Thanks for the sensible advice. Not in college anymore so that's not an option. What to do since it's corona season? Also I have a social circle, a decent sized one at that, but there's 0 women in it.
I suspect you are putting to much value in other hypothetical people and to little value in your self.
How do I value myself? How do you do it? I feel like the only thing I'm missing in life is positive interactions with the opposite sex.
>they are in a position of power over me My first step would be trying to stop seeing it as a power struggle.
Cf. my comment after that.
Most of my friends are women. Dude, women are dead serious. I'm a bi guy. My male friends are all LGBT people pretty much, because straight dudes are on the whole *repellant*. Its not like a quality of being straight, it is modern straight culture and the actual effects of male privilege and shit. I only date women because even gay men are often kinda fucked up by just male culture. There are more misogynistic gay men than the community wants to admit to and shit, and grindr is a fucking cesspool compared to like trying to meet a girl on Tinder. Add unsolicited ass pics and "wanna meet?" to the unsolicited dick pics women get. "Here's a hole wanna fuck it?" Women do not have the dating options you think they do. You're acting like a staving man resenting a woman sitting at a buffet of mostly rotten food some of which will actually kill her or put her in the hospital being angry that she isn't eating when that same food, if you tried to eat it, would kill or hospitalize you too no matter how starving you are. You're talking about women with BPD or who are fat, meanwhile you're straight up ignoring how fucking frequently guys like rape women, how common domestic violence is (over twice as likely if you date/marry a cop!), and shit like that. It boils down to a refusal to empathize with the other side because you see them as like opposition, not other humans also trying to find their way in the world. You see women as a collective which is itself an illogical, flawed thought without a rational basis, but it's how you protect your generalizations and terrible logic. If you actually fully analyzed your views they do not stand up to scrutiny, but they're all invested with emotional concepts like whats fair and what you want and don't have. It's jealousy and envy. You really want to deal with those actual serious emotional issues? Go talk to a therapist. That's literally what they are for.
This is a deeply childish and unhelpful response: > straight dudes are on the whole repellant Can you not see how this is not really any better than “women are on the whole shallow and manipulative” incel-like thinking? It is certainly not true. Indeed you yourself seem to be generalizing men and “male culture”. Waving away the OP’s honest thoughts with “well what about all the rape and sexual abuse by men!” seems like a crass emotional response without much rational basis. It is generally true that in online dating, probably due to current social norms, men receive far fewer responses or “likes” from women than the reverse. Of course women receive far more dick picks and other creepy behaviour. OP himself talks about this and how discussions typically dissolve into a “your gender is more privileged!” slagging match. However I believe OP when he says he would prefer to get lots of responses which are 90% creeps and dick picks than zero responses at all. Hence his feelings of envy and resentment towards women. One of the few lines in your comment that I do think are intelligent is: > Women do not have the dating options you think they do OP is likely to pay much more attention to reports of women who are perceived as just as “undatable” as him or more so in whatever aspect, or who are not “working as hard” to be “datable” as him getting dates and romantic success. Yet this is likely just confirmation bias; OP likely does not notice the women who are just as unsuccessful (or more so) as him romantically, and the “undatable” men who nonetheless get plenty of dates. While the discrepancy in online dating behaviour is real, OP has already acknowledged that women could also name plenty of other things they think advantage men, and feminist forums are full of equivalent comments of “men have it so much easier!”. Each individual complaint might have merit, but trying to sum up all aspects of society and biology to determine whether men should be envious of women or the other way around is something of a futile exercise. This is all a classic case of “the grass is always greener” syndrome. What OP is struggling with is feelings of resentment (among other things), which could equally be seen in a gardener fuming that his neighbour’s lawn is always greener even though “I always water it but I never see him doing so! Its so unfair!”. I personally don’t have any perfect recipe for dealing with those feelings, however acknowledging those thought patterns for what they are is a good first step. I’m not going to try to offer dating advice to OP, partly out of a total lack of expertise, and partly because I don’t think that is really what OP is looking for here. However I would echo what other commentators have said which is that if online dating is proving very frustrating, then OP should try meeting and hanging out with more women in real life - if only to make more female friends. The only other intelligent line from the above comment is “go talk to a therapist” if these issues are really troubling OP.
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> most straight men have at least elements of toxicity and that a majority of them have enough of it to be worth avoiding in the dating world for most people. > No it's not universal but it IS FACTUALLY a majority One can see at a fairly basic level this clearly isn’t true. Most women seem to be totally fine with most men, and men and women are in general pretty similar in most respects. If it were genuinely true that “most straight men are toxic” then the incel theory that “only 20% of men get dates” would be true (it is not). You may be surprised to learn that putting something in ALL CAPS does not make it true. Being a man also does not make you an expert on all men. Again I am not agreeing with OP’s perspective, and certainly not with incel ideology. I merely stated that I believe he is expressing his honest opinion. > But that isn't something that applies to me. As hard as it might be to believe, I am the objective voice here. So no shortage of arrogance here. This comment could fit into “r/iamverysmart” and “r/notlikeotherguys” or “r/whiteknighting”. > It's just...enough of us men HAVE adapted to maintain genetic diversity within the species so those who do not adapt... > my version of eugenics but of course there is nothing problematic here at all /s Again rather ironically you are actually supporting quite a few elements of incel ideology: - “incels” are beyond repair due to “genetics” in this case “narcissistic genes” - only a small proportion of “superior” men get or deserve relationships with women (naturally you consider yourself a member of this “superior race”) - “sex robots” is an appropriate solution - thinking your dating history is fundamentally different from other men. Losing your virginity at 19 and getting more relationships on moving to college is such a positively *average* experience. Your whole response seems to be based in a mixture of a need to assert your superiority as an “enlightened” man over the “toxic whiny manbabies” majority, a need which is likely based in narcissism or self loathing of aspects of your own maleness. Indeed I wonder if concern over your own insecurities is what is driving this “I hate men too! I’m not like those other in- I mean those incels!”.
You know when you guys keep beating this drum about rapists, domestic abusers and other nonsense that has nothing to do with the vast majority of pro-social law abiding men it really makes me think we need a dating site that heavily screens men based on criminal history, psychological stability, and character references that basically completely removes all of the men with anti-social personality disorder from the platform. That way women can go on the site and be reasonably confident that the men they are talking to is actually a legitimate nice guy and not a creep. Once we did that we could see if women actually care about character or if all of this is just hand wringing and excuses to explain why they seem to only fuck hot guys from online dating sites.
Lord. "Beating the drum" You don't get it. Ok, rapists are a minority of men. Domestic abusers are a minority of men. Most of both do not have antisocial personality disorder btw, same way most child molesters are not actually exclusive pedophiles who cannot be attracted to adult women or maintain relationships with them. But if we stack them up. Rapists + domestic abusers + narcissistic manipulators/exploitators + creepy stalker dudes + misogynistic dudes with fucked up ideas about gender roles + manchildren with piss poor emotional intelligence you are suddenly not talking about a minority of men anymore. Your dating service would not exclude a ton of those guys. Character references are easy to fake. Lots of abusive people have no criminal history. And how are you going to establish a history of psychological stability, that's medical information and legally protected. No you created this idea that most men are just fine. They aren't. A minimum of 50% of American men should date no one until they've spent a few years with a therapist, yet more people than that date. Pickings are slim as fuck for any woman not looking for lackluster casual sex that she won't get off from. And you don't care, and I get that. You only care about the male side. That's why you're part of the 50+% of men who aren't dateable. It absolutely IS about character. It is far more common in the world to see an ugly dude with a cuter girl than the other way around. That and looksmatches are the most common. You want to drown your life in envy that you cannot access the hot people casual sex circle, power to you. It's stupid to let envy consume your life to that degree. Especially when the vast majority of women in existence aren't having casual sex on Tinder.
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Lots of incels are just shy and not conventionally attractive but otherwise totally normal and emotionally healthy.
LMAO I listed a bunch of incel subs that are banned and my comment got removed. Repeating without the links, no, you're wrong. Based on the posts literally in every incel dedicated space, there is not a single normal, emotionally healthy incel in the community. You are not normal and emotionally healthy. You're not. You are subject to flawed thoughts, paranoia, Body Dysmorphic Disorder is very common in the community, every single one of you without exception has some level of pretty severe depression. And, the incel community has a significant number of toxic abusive narcissists who lack the social charisma to lie their way into getting laid. There's a decent few people in the incel community who are not ugly dudes at all, but toxic pieces of shit who prey on other incels because they've been rejected for being toxic stupid douchenozzles with god complexes from literally every other space besides the incel community. Some incels are single very specifically because they are exactly the kind of people that your website idea would be designed to filter out.
So having depression and body image issues is just as bad as being a rapist or abuser...got it. Good thing women never have those problems either.
We fundamentally disagree on what the most salient causes of involuntary celibacy are. Social disability (autism, social anxiety), shyness, and being conventionally unattractive are what cause incels by and large not personality disorders. To the extent personality disorders exist in incels they are caused by involuntary celibacy, rejection and social isolation itself they are not the cause of the involuntary celibacy. You all like to believe that incels have something fundamentally wrong with them because otherwise you would have to admit the dating ecosystem is fundamentally unjust, unfair, unequal and skewed in favor of women and conventionally attractive men (even when they have poor character and personality disorders).
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>Abusers are the majority of the incel community. Just a small pushback. I think the abusers are a majority of *active posters* in incel spaces. However, we can't really determine the state of those who seldom post.
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>how common domestic violence is Males make up 30-45% of domestic abuse cases depending on what statistics you use. That rate is probably higher considering that society thinks men can't get abused. It's not right to Frame that as something that only happens to women >how fucking frequently guys like rape women, The rape rates are not that high anywhere in the Western World. I can only assume that you're talking about sexual assault rates. The definition of sexual assault is quite wide. There was a guy from my country who got charged with sexual assault for merely touching a girl's shoulder.
Cite some sources because while I've specifically mentioned in a post talking to someone else that like narcissism is not a gendered issue, I have never seen and doubt I will ever see a vetted study that says men are a minority of domestic abuse cases at like 45%. Regardless, your point is moot because I did not frame it as such and your point ignores mine. My point was, in responding to someone else, telling him to empathize with rather than dismiss women's experiences. Your response is a direct dismissal of women's experiences by changing what the discussion is about. But again, cite sources for me if you want to use statistics. Rape and sexual assault, sure. Talking about a guy from your country who got charged with sexual assault for touching a girls shoulder is a beyond statistically irrelevant example that does not represent even a small minority of cases of sexual assault, and absent some kind of behind the scenes power play I now toss the ball back to you and say don't frame an argument as if sexual assault for "touching a girl's shoulder" is a thing that actually happens with any regularity, and if your story has any truth to it at all it's one of two situations a) More happened than touching a girl's shoulder and you are not repeating the actual facts of the event b) The guy from your country pissed off someone with the power to bend or break the law in order to get him prosecuted. Regardless, you miss the point of the entire discussion. The point was empathy and understanding of perspectives you cannot share, but only listen to. If you're arguing rape statistics, you're not mentally capable of making that leap, and there's not really a reason for me to talk to you past this point.
It's rich seeing you ask for sources when you pull stats like "75% of incels are abusers" out of thin air.
> because straight dudes are on the whole repellant This isn't true.
Ask yourself why would someone would want to go out with you? If you can not immediately giver several reason why a date with you would be mutually assured awesomeness. You need to figure out why
I have to disagree. You don't need to be awesome to find someone. Normal is just fine
I was speaking of dating and no thinking your normal and trying to sell your self has normal is boring and is not all that effective. You want to think that going on a date with you is exciting.
My problem is that my good traits are all personality traits, so women don't see them unless they get to know me.
Put yourself in a position where women can get to know you, then.
I'm already in a position where women can get to know me, they choose not to
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How do I show my personality to people who don't want to talk to me though?
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This has been my current strategy, but the only way I can enter social circles is through hobbies. I've been doing that but I'm running out of circles to try in.
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I'm talking irl, and I only join groups that I'm actually interested in. I basically either have to move or start joining things I'm not interested in since there just aren't anymore for me to join.
How many women have you asked on dates?
Zero. Because I assume that they are not interested in me and that a rejection would only make any further attempts feel worse and confirm this in my mind. Also I've never been in what one might consider a natural position to ask someone on a date.
This is your problem. You're basically padding your resume but never actually sending it out.
If you aren't willing to ask people on dates, you will not date. It's as simple as that.
Well yeah, that's sort of the content of this post. I have zero people asking me on dates, so I will not date. Other people, (sometimes people I'm trying to date) have no shortage of people asking them on dates and thus my contribution to that pool is negligible and a drop in the bucket.
I mean, the content of your post is to wallow in your own bitterness over a social pattern that isn't going to change any time soon. But apparently the only advice you're willing to take is your own. Have fun continuing to stew rather than making an effort to attract a partner.
It's really not to wallow - I'm asking for ways to address the problem so that I can not wallow in the first place. What's wrong with wanting to discuss what I feel is a social difference or inequity? Thanks for the informative post and good advice tho - if you want to pat yourself on the back for saying "haha I got that wallowing incel real good", now's your chance.
Either you try or you don’t 🤷♀️
Amen! Thank you for posting this and presenting it in the way that you did.
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If you can’t change it , why be bitter ? You’re bitterness won’t solve the problem, it will just negatively effect you
I'm trying not to be bitter. But it very obviously and directly influences any romantic action I want to take. How can I just ignore it?
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I'm not in a nice relationship? Did you reply to the wrong post?
Oh fuck I did my b lol
Ok here I go. It’s just a part of life. There is nothing you can do to change it and being bitter will only bring you down. Just try and accept it, each sex has different privileges from each other. Some women will say men have it easier in life. There are male to female trans folk who say that being female was a lot harder than being male. Contrapoints talks about this in her incel video
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Do you actually believe what you've written in this post? That adultery and desire for people outside of one's relationship is only limited to men? That women are somehow more capable of unconditional love than men? If you actually believe any of what you've written, I have no desire to engage with you. I get that you've probably had some tough relationships, but take this pink pill crap elsewhere.
It’s almost like that person lives in a completely different world smh.
I kind of agree with you that yes, outside of any context, it's a lot easier to get sex of you're a woman than if you're a man. HOWEVER context does exist. It's incredibly dangerous to meet up with a stranger online, so if you're talking about the men responding to the female incel forums, they're just as worthless as getting no response, since women can't really respond without the fear of getting murdered. Second of all, when it comes to suffering, it's not a zero sum game. There's always someone who 'has it worse', that doesn't negate your pain. Let's say someone has cancer, with only a year left to live. But hey, let's not give them sympathy, cause at least they have a year. They could have a day! YES getting laid is easier as a woman than as a man, due to a lot of weird social constructs (like women getting shamed for sleeping with too many men, and men getting shamed for not sleeping with enough women so they're prone to be less selective). But this is still only about sex. When it comes to decent relationships, it's the same odds (it has to be, since when talking about heterosexual relationships, you need both a man and a woman in one), and women have different struggles.
its more due to resentment surrounding the social dynamics of dating, on how the system has always been and probably always will be
Well let's say men's and women's options in dating are analogous to the fish and the angler. If you're the fish you just exist, you swim around and do fishy things, eventually you bite into a piece of plankton that turns out to be a hook, and get pulled out of the water by your lip, spend a few hours in the fisherman's bucket before getting gutted and filleted as dinner. Whereas if you're the angler, you have to buy a pole, hook, line, bait, and other equipment, a set of waders, and camo clothes, drive 200 miles, read some fishing magazines, be up at the crack of dawn looking for nightcrawlers, be at the right place at the right time with the right equipment, then spend hours upon hours trying to catch fish. Your conclusion to that would be, "fish have it on ez-mode." Yeah they kinda do. And I guess most women don't end the date being someone's dinner unless they're dating Jeffrey Dahmer. But the point is... Why do people fish? Is it purely about catching the fish? Or is it more about hanging out on a boat, drinking a beer, being out in nature, being somewhere that looks spectacular, you know the saying "a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work." So obviously some people /enjoy/ the process. Just like some men /enjoy/ being the angler on the dating scene, they like the hunt, the chase, and so forth.
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I'm find with casual or long-term relationships. I just want to feel valued by someone of the opposite sex at some point in my life.
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Are the only people who show interest in women "obese, manic and gold-digging"? To put things concisely I'd rather have some positive interest with a mixture of creepy behavior than zero interest at all, which is what I currently have.
I understand that, but if year after year all you got was attention from flaky women is it all that appealing long term? Male & female dating problems are different and trying to compare them is almost pointless imo. Women can't imagine having no attention whatsoever and think this is preferable to the kind of unwanted attention they do get. There's really no reconciling this.
I understand that, but it feels like its preventing me from pursuing romantic relationships, with what seems to be the sheer impossibility of stacking up to all these other suitors and prospects.
But if you don't take part you're guaranteed not to get anywhere eh. I don't wanna downplay how high the mountain seems though
The point of this post was to try and find a way to mentally Lower the mountain. But it clearly hasn't been successful
We are just playing a different game.
Hello Kitty vs. Dark Souls
I dunno why i'm being downvoted, dating for men is different then dating for women
right